IRC Log for #openid on 2007-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:27:15] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #openid
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  14. [03:58:23] <VxJasonxV> http://vxjasonxv.livejournal.com/500799.html
  15. [03:58:24] <VxJasonxV> :D
  16. [04:03:37] <GabeW> saw that
  17. [04:03:53] <GabeW> python openid is also in ubuntu
  18. [04:04:58] <GabeW> not yet
  19. [04:05:00] <GabeW> woops
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  24. [05:06:20] <jibot> keturn is Kevin Turner
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  53. [13:41:51] <jibot> marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
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  87. [18:16:24] <jibot> marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
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  98. [20:18:59] * peace-keeper (n=peace-ke@89.6.25.16) Quit ("May the gods keep the wolves in the hills and the women in our beds.")
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  106. [20:38:56] <GabeW> hey janrain guys - any of the python folks here?
  107. [20:39:00] <GabeW> or php
  108. [20:39:08] <GabeW> i have a question about your impelemtnations
  109. [20:39:28] <GabeW> and ruby while we're at it
  110. [20:42:33] <_keturn> GabeW: sure
  111. [20:42:54] <GabeW> kinda answering my own question, but I"m wondering how you are parsing the XRD documents
  112. [20:42:59] <GabeW> i see in python you are using elementreee
  113. [20:43:24] <GabeW> there are some issues with the ordering of certain elements in XRD documents coming out of neustar GRS for XRI resolution
  114. [20:43:26] <_keturn> ElementTree in python, rexml ruby
  115. [20:44:11] <GabeW> i don't know ruby/rexml
  116. [20:44:40] <GabeW> i'm looking in the ruby 2.x.x source
  117. [20:45:02] * _keturn actually has his fingers in that ruby module right now
  118. [20:45:27] <GabeW> its spooky how similar python and ruby seem
  119. [20:46:09] <_keturn> this is probably especially true for our ruby library code, because we write our ruby library by copying our python one
  120. [20:46:23] <GabeW> eheh
  121. [20:46:24] <GabeW> yah
  122. [20:46:28] <GabeW> pythonic ruby
  123. [20:47:14] <GabeW> its like when I first looked at C#, I swear I could write a translator to Java that would be about 90% correct
  124. [20:47:56] <GabeW> in which file does the XML parsing get done in the ruby lib?
  125. [20:48:00] <GabeW> having a hard time finding it
  126. [20:49:18] <_keturn> if you're looking in the 2.x branch, you'll have to look in attic/lib/yadis/xrds.rb
  127. [20:49:24] <GabeW> python-> ruby: s/None/nil/, s/ /end/
  128. [20:49:25] <GabeW> ;-)
  129. [20:49:26] <GabeW> oooh ok
  130. [20:49:32] <GabeW> attic?
  131. [20:49:41] <_keturn> yah, I'm working on moving it out of attic at the moment
  132. [20:49:45] <GabeW> got it
  133. [20:50:46] <GabeW> using xpath i see
  134. [20:51:51] <GabeW> should I look in php-openid and php-server for the XRD parsing code there?
  135. [20:53:50] <GabeW> i see php-server is just a tar
  136. [20:54:25] * GabeW gives an offering to the janrainian gods
  137. [20:59:28] <GabeW> _keturn: you guys have anything else? Perl? C#?
  138. [20:59:45] <GabeW> this list on the openid.net site seems to have some abandoned projects and I"m wondering what libs I shoudl really care about
  139. [20:59:48] <GabeW> http://wiki.openid.net/Libraries
  140. [21:10:56] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> by php-server you probably mean the "standalone PHP server" which is an app that runs on top of the library
  141. [21:11:09] <GabeW> yah, i mean the thing in the repository called php-server
  142. [21:11:28] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> which repository?
  143. [21:12:25] <GabeW> http://openidenabled.com/files/
  144. [21:12:58] * _keturn (n=acapnoti@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/keturn) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  145. [21:13:04] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> ugh, we should actually come up with a name for that thing.
  146. [21:13:22] * _keturn (n=acapnoti@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/keturn) has joined #openid
  147. [21:13:26] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> as someone else recently pointed out, "PHP server" is not an especially illuminating name for that package..
  148. [21:13:42] <GabeW> ehe
  149. [21:13:43] <GabeW> yah
  150. [21:13:44] <GabeW> well
  151. [21:16:57] <_keturn> man. I get shut out at foos and my computer dies.
  152. [21:19:53] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> the causality is clear.
  153. [21:20:07] <_keturn> but which is cause and which effect?
  154. [21:20:40] <GabeW> are we having a merovingian-style discussion?
  155. [21:21:29] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> the foosball shut-out is the cause, in addition to just being a bad omen.
  156. [21:21:42] <GabeW> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_(The_Matrix)
  157. [21:21:48] <jibot> cheers|TheMovies is aka cheers; cheers is an OmniWeb dev & was formerly known as cheers_ & is *still* invisible & is now mrs. cheers & is ummmmmmmmmm & is mean
  158. [21:21:59] <GabeW> ?
  159. [21:22:01] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> which reminds me, didn't Larry get shut out earlier?
  160. [21:22:03] <GabeW> jibot is nuts
  161. [21:23:07] <PibbRelay> <kevin fox> Larry and Mike were shut out by Jason and Kevin
  162. [21:23:31] <GabeW> Like all sentient programs within the Matrix (and the Machines in the real world), the Merovingian is a determinist, which is the basis for his dissertation on causality being the nature of the universe. Due to the conflicting nature between himself and the Oracle, the Merovingian decries her as a "fortune teller"; yet reveals in the third film that he secretly longs for "the eyes of the Oracle", which he believes would allow him fantasti
  163. [21:25:58] <PibbRelay> <VxJasonxV> fantasti
  164. [21:26:10] <VxJasonxV> that was a nice end to the paste :D
  165. [21:30:08] * falkor81 (n=brianlan@rrcs-24-106-184-150.se.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
  166. [21:44:35] * tommorris (n=tom@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit ()
  167. [21:48:06] <GabeW> hey janrainers
  168. [21:48:25] <GabeW> question about myopenid.com - the XRDS that it produces
  169. [21:48:28] <GabeW> anyone there?
  170. [21:49:34] <PibbRelay> <cygnus> what's up?
  171. [21:49:43] <GabeW> hey
  172. [21:49:43] <GabeW> so
  173. [21:49:54] <GabeW> you guys produce XRD elements with Service/LocalID
  174. [21:50:09] <GabeW> thats actually not kosher according to the schema
  175. [21:50:25] <GabeW> i'm wondering why thats there
  176. [21:53:10] <GabeW> i'm converting our xsd to relaxng (sooo much easier to understand than XSD and allow us to express some constraints that are not possible in XSD) - anyway just trying to make sure the XRDs out in the wild aren't going to break - turns out I'm finding some surprises ;)
  177. [21:56:09] <_keturn> what huh?
  178. [21:56:29] <GabeW> myopenid.com
  179. [21:56:53] <GabeW> <Service priority="0">
  180. [21:56:53] <GabeW> <Type>http://specs.openid.net/auth/2.0/signon</Type>
  181. [21:56:53] <GabeW> <Type>http://openid.net/sreg/1.0</Type>
  182. [21:56:53] <GabeW> <Type>http://openid.net/extensions/sreg/1.1</Type>
  183. [21:56:53] <GabeW> <Type>http://schemas.openid.net/pape/policies/2007/06/phishing-resistant</Type>
  184. [21:56:56] <GabeW> <URI>http://www.myopenid.com/server</URI>
  185. [21:56:58] <GabeW> <LocalID>http://gwachob.myopenid.com/</LocalID>
  186. [21:57:01] <GabeW> </Service>
  187. [21:57:03] <GabeW> that LocalID down there
  188. [21:57:35] <GabeW> (that XML comes from my myopenid.com XRD)
  189. [21:58:00] <GabeW> that LocalID is not allowed in the schema
  190. [21:58:03] <_keturn> =drummond said that LocalID could serve the purpose of openid:Delegate
  191. [21:58:18] <GabeW> headslap
  192. [21:59:38] <GabeW> well
  193. [21:59:39] <GabeW> feh
  194. [21:59:40] <GabeW> argh
  195. [22:00:41] <_keturn> see openid 2.0 draft 12, section 7.3.2.1.2. Claimed Identifier Element
  196. [22:00:51] <GabeW> hehe - I'll have to check
  197. [22:01:46] <GabeW> arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh
  198. [22:02:01] <GabeW> self-conflicting specs
  199. [22:02:02] <GabeW> love it
  200. [22:02:27] <GabeW> at least i'm finding this before they are finalized
  201. [22:02:31] <_keturn> granted, I think that depends on some version of xrds that's not yet published on http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=xri
  202. [22:02:57] <GabeW> oh ait
  203. [22:02:58] <GabeW> wait
  204. [22:03:04] <GabeW> well
  205. [22:03:11] <GabeW> ok
  206. [22:03:13] <GabeW> i see the problem
  207. [22:03:55] <GabeW> yah, the problem is that the ordering in the XRI res spec for some new elements (like this one) hasn't been captured in the XSD - I'm capturing that order now in RelaxNG
  208. [22:04:03] <GabeW> so you guys just stick it at the end
  209. [22:04:28] <GabeW> which uh, seems perfectly reasonable for you guys to have done without further guidance
  210. [22:04:33] <GabeW> :-/
  211. [22:05:11] <GabeW> well, actually, though, the ordering you guys produce is still off
  212. [22:05:28] <GabeW> no wait
  213. [22:05:30] <GabeW> grrr
  214. [22:06:10] <GabeW> the plain text sections in xri res have been chopped up and reassembled since earlier versions - so I'm trying to track across versions - very confusing heheh
  215. [22:06:22] <PibbRelay> <VxJasonxV> the epic struggle from within GabeW :P
  216. [22:06:32] <GabeW> you have *no* idea ...
  217. [22:06:35] <idnar> heh
  218. [22:07:07] <GabeW> ok, it may in fact be, that there is absolutely no problem with myopenid.com... fancy that.
  219. [22:07:20] <GabeW> depending on how I choose to write the schema ;-)
  220. [22:12:08] <GabeW> ok, so i'm putting LocalID after URI - so myopenid doesn't have to change
  221. [22:13:08] <_keturn> must the ordering always be significant? i'd always considered the order of the children of a service element to be pretty irrelevant
  222. [22:13:15] <GabeW> its fixed
  223. [22:13:24] <GabeW> most of you all are using xpath
  224. [22:13:34] <GabeW> but ifyou are using pull parsing, its easier to have order fixed
  225. [22:16:38] <GabeW> its a postel's law thing
  226. [22:17:06] <GabeW> also
  227. [22:17:29] <GabeW> because there's extensibility - you want to put the known elements first so that you can more efficiently pull them out - assuming you are using XPATH processing
  228. [22:17:42] <GabeW> which is pretty much unconcerned with pul
  229. [22:17:52] <GabeW> efficiency
  230. [22:17:56] <GabeW> (s/pul//)
  231. [22:18:42] <GabeW> OTOH, its the wild internet and who knows what the hell will happen
  232. [22:21:58] <chowells79> I thought one of the main strengths of schemas over dtds was that they allowed arbitrary ordering of children.
  233. [22:23:05] <GabeW> "arbitrary" == specified?
  234. [22:23:10] <GabeW> or unspecified?
  235. [22:23:38] <GabeW> xsd is pain
  236. [22:24:53] <GabeW> it's built on a model of the XML that isn't appropriate in many cases, and makes expressing what should be simple things complicated
  237. [22:25:40] <GabeW> primarily, xsd is about defining a namespace of elements and element types
  238. [22:25:49] <GabeW> whereas relaxng is about specifying document correctness
  239. [22:26:12] <GabeW> (or element correctness if used with the related specs such as NRL, etc)
  240. [22:26:27] <GabeW> relaxng ~ patterns, xsd ~ objects
  241. [22:29:06] <GabeW> er
  242. [22:29:19] <GabeW> patterns as in patterns of elements and attributes, etc - not patterns in the "Gang of Four" sense
  243. [22:53:22] * tbbrown (n=tom@cpe-66-68-114-152.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("leaving")
  244. [23:40:12] <GabeW> ok, _keturn
  245. [23:40:22] <GabeW> myopenid is fully compliant ;0
  246. [23:40:24] <GabeW> :)
  247. [23:40:57] <_keturn> yaay
  248. [23:41:27] <GabeW> i have the power
  249. [23:41:31] <GabeW> i Made It So
  250. [23:41:41] <GabeW> But
  251. [23:41:51] <GabeW> with great power comes great responsibility (writing RelaxNG schema)

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