IRC Log for #openid on 2009-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  24. [10:15:59] <nairb> Hi. I'm trying to figure out how to login using openid. I go to .... and I see a login/password field, and an openid field. I'm pretty sure I've signed up for openid before, and I have accounts at some of the places that are equivalent to openid. How do I actually use it to log into this site??
  25. [10:18:02] <flaccid> nairb do you know what your openid is?
  26. [10:18:17] <nairb> flaccid: well, I have one with yahoo? I probably have a dozen of them.
  27. [10:19:28] <nairb> I just went to and clicked "register" .... afterwards it gives me a long goofy https "identifier url" that it says I don't have to remember. If I'm not supposed to remember it, then waht's it for?
  28. [10:19:34] <flaccid> nairb place your openid in the openid login box and submit the form
  29. [10:19:47] <nairb> what is my openid id? my yahoo id?
  30. [10:20:07] <nairb> or my yahoo email address? or this goofy url?
  31. [10:20:30] <flaccid> you put in the identifier to login
  32. [10:20:33] <flaccid> thats your username
  33. [10:20:45] <flaccid> im not sure how yahoo openid works
  34. [10:20:46] <nairb> I've tried that, it didn't work
  35. [10:20:59] <flaccid> why
  36. [10:21:55] <nairb> how do I know? it doesn't say anything, it just doesn't log me in.
  37. [10:22:32] <flaccid> nairb
  38. [10:22:43] <flaccid> or get a standard openid
  39. [10:23:35] <flaccid> as that site does not support directed identity logins, you will have to put in the identifier url that yahoo gave you
  40. [10:24:04] <nairb> where do I get standard openid? I don't see a "sign up" page on
  41. [10:24:27] <flaccid> well according to yahoo's faq you can use the identifier yahoo gave you
  42. [10:24:35] <nairb> I tried using the URL yahoo gave me and it didn't work either. I've tried a lot of different things and nothing seems to work.
  43. [10:24:39] <flaccid> it appears the site you mentioned does not support logging in via just ''
  44. [10:24:58] <flaccid> so the site never returns any error?
  45. [10:25:18] <nairb> it says "The requested identifier did not return the proper information. "
  46. [10:25:40] <nairb> I mean, try typing "asjdfhadfash" into the openid bar, I assume you'll get the same error
  47. [10:25:50] <flaccid> one moment please
  48. [10:28:18] <flaccid> nairb after some testing, it appears has bugs or a badly implemented OpenID login (relying party). The problem is not your OpenID provider, but rather I guess you could contact and advise them of the problem.
  49. [10:28:32] <nairb> bummer
  50. [10:28:35] <nairb> i hate bad web pages
  51. [10:29:02] <flaccid> yeah unfortunately the case here
  52. [10:29:34] <nairb> part of what, in theory, is nice about openid. I'm so sick of filling out forms on web pages signing up with convoluted passwords I'll never remember just to post message, ... and then in the end I CAN'T EVEN POST because their damn forum code is broken
  53. [10:29:56] <nairb> if they can't implement openid then I'm just going to assume their forum doesn't work either
  54. [10:30:03] <flaccid> yeah in essence developers are part of the larger problem of the progress of the internet
  55. [10:30:42] <flaccid> well they certainly aint php freaks
  56. [10:30:50] <nairb> are openid's transferable in some way?
  57. [10:31:05] <flaccid> yes via delegation
  58. [10:31:14] <nairb> how's that work?
  59. [10:31:24] <flaccid>
  60. [10:31:26] <flaccid> nairb ^
  61. [10:32:12] <nairb> like,, if i signup as and then have accounts at a dozen web sites, ... and then i decide I hate yahoo or they go out of business or something, .... I can sign up as and transfer my account and thne go use the same dozen web sites and still see my same blog posts and whatnot?
  62. [10:32:15] <flaccid> openid is about owning a URL which is your openid identifier. if you maintain that you always have access to this URL ie. to provide http headers to say its yours, then you can delegate to any openid provider you want and switch whenever you want
  63. [10:32:45] <flaccid> nairb in that case because you do not own you won't be able to
  64. [10:33:13] <nairb> ah...
  65. [10:33:17] <flaccid> need to remember that an openid is a unique identifier
  66. [10:33:17] <nairb> so you can't change providers
  67. [10:33:31] <flaccid> you can always change providers, if you own the URL.
  68. [10:33:32] <nairb> and keep data
  69. [10:33:51] <flaccid> URL is nothing about data, the relying parties store that
  70. [10:33:52] <nairb> own the url? if you buy the domain then you're your own provider aren't you? that's still not changing providers... right?
  71. [10:34:06] <flaccid> nairb correct. but you don't own yahoo's URL it provided to you.
  72. [10:34:35] <flaccid> so this is why i use a subdomain on my domain so i will always own it, will never have to change it, and can change providers any time i want with delegation
  73. [10:34:53] <nairb> hmmm
  74. [10:35:09] <nairb> so, .... can yahoo be my "provider" if I'm using my own domain?
  75. [10:35:35] <flaccid> in theory yes, but i can't confirm
  76. [10:35:37] <nairb> i just set the dns to point a subdomain at or is there more to it than that?
  77. [10:35:56] <flaccid> nairb if you read the URL i provided, it tell you how. its simply a html tag..
  78. [10:35:57] <nairb> how do you do it? do you run your own openid provider, or do you actually use a different provider with your domain?
  79. [10:36:06] <nairb> ok ...
  80. [10:36:11] <flaccid> like i said, its done via delgation, you should read about it
  81. [10:37:38] <flaccid> nairb it might be clearer here:
  82. [10:38:09] <flaccid> nairb and to see an example, see mine, my id is and if you view source you will see the delegation tag there which delegates my provider to be
  83. [10:39:31] <nairb> this seems to be about identifying yourself on your blog, ... what's that have to do with changing providers? how would, say, ever know about my blog?
  84. [10:39:40] <flaccid> so you are in the common situation where 1. you have existing OpenID(s) 2. you may have used them before on sites and created membership on these sites 3. you want to change providers 4. you want to change identity URLs
  85. [10:41:21] <flaccid> the unfortunate side is that uneducated users do not know that you can't delegate a Yahoo! OpenID and that because identitifers are unique, only sites that allow you to identify with the old url and then the url and then transfer the old to new (multiple ID support) can you change your identifier registered on a relying party site.
  86. [10:41:43] <nairb> oh oh, you're saying that by having an html page with two tags in it, .... I can use that URL, ... and will go to MY web page to check openid, ... and when it sees those tags will redirect to whatever provider I specify?
  87. [10:41:53] <flaccid> nairb the page can be anything as the code required is merely a http header element.
  88. [10:42:03] <flaccid> nairb exactly :)
  89. [10:42:10] <nairb> ok, I understand now :-)
  90. [10:42:14] <flaccid> sweet
  91. [10:42:18] <nairb> I can handle that.
  92. [10:42:43] <flaccid> yeah so its good to start with your own URL and stick with it.
  93. [10:42:58] <nairb> I wish there was a way that sites would allow me to have multiple openids that all identified me as the same user
  94. [10:43:07] <flaccid> so you can see in my case i use atm. when i put my id in, it redirects to but it advises an error so i cannot continue (
  95. [10:43:30] <flaccid> nairb yeah like i said its possible, and its not hard to do as a developer. but its more effort and not many sites put that effort in.
  96. [10:44:04] <nairb> do you develop for openid?
  97. [10:44:19] <flaccid> not for the spec, no
  98. [10:44:25] <flaccid> but i do implement openid
  99. [10:44:37] <flaccid> and have written an OP etc.
  100. [10:44:46] <nairb> they aught to have something in the license that makes it illegal for sites like phpfreaks to implement it wrong
  101. [10:45:20] <flaccid> i don't think thats possible and would infringe on other rights
  102. [10:45:23] <nairb> like, if it's not working properly some percent of the time, they aught to be able to send a cease and desist or something. it gives them a bad name to use the name "openid" but have it not owrk.
  103. [10:45:51] <flaccid> i think you can report that somewhere but if they really are php freaks, it should be easy for them to fix
  104. [10:46:14] <flaccid> they can read to learn how
  105. [10:46:28] <nairb> nah, it doesn't infringe on theri rights. openid has to grant them the right to use the openid name. I can't just go making a web page saying "implements yahoo xyz functionality" (regardless of if I did or not) without geting letters from yahoo
  106. [10:46:43] <nairb> you can't use someone's name like that without explicit permission afaik
  107. [10:46:52] <flaccid> if they are using the standard SMF openid support a bug can be submitted to the project
  108. [10:46:54] <nairb> so i'm pretty sure you can conditionally grant them permission
  109. [10:47:12] <flaccid> nairb no rights need to be granted to use openid
  110. [10:47:21] <nairb> right, but that's because of hte openid license
  111. [10:47:27] <flaccid> yahoo is just an openid provider
  112. [10:47:41] <nairb> no no, ... i mean, ... sure rights have to be granted. they just, ARE granted.
  113. [10:48:11] <flaccid>
  114. [10:48:15] <flaccid> see that nairb
  115. [10:48:42] <flaccid> you may be right in some respects, but i'm yet to see litigation personally to do with openid
  116. [10:49:20] <nairb> right, but I'm saying they should have retained some rights in their licensing so they could protect their image.
  117. [10:49:31] <flaccid> nairb but if you see...
  118. [10:50:02] <flaccid> nairb that would not be good as it imposes sanctions on relying parties who fail to implement it
  119. [10:50:08] <flaccid> (properly)
  120. [10:50:26] <nairb> yes. what's wrong with that?
  121. [10:50:35] <nairb> you don't want people like phpfreaks implementing it poorly
  122. [10:50:58] <flaccid> if you read the last paragraph in that link, you will see the answer
  123. [10:51:19] <nairb> i'm not saying you actuallly go through and litigate, i'm just saying you retain the right to send a "get rid of the link or fix your page dick head!" email that they actually have a legal obligation to listen to
  124. [10:51:32] <flaccid> because its anti-productive. i don't know of any situation of a free open spec that if you make a mistake or have a bug, its illegal. that would be crazy
  125. [10:51:36] <nairb> yeah, I see it. I just think they've made a poor decision.
  126. [10:52:37] <nairb> I think you should be able to make it illegal for someone to say "implements openid" without actually implementing openid.
  127. [10:52:52] <flaccid> imho, its more productive and postive to help relying parties fix their problems. its not uncommon to have bugs in libraries and the popular sites with openid authentication. a lot of work has been done to help sites iron out issues
  128. [10:53:16] <flaccid> well its a bug in phpfreaks case and it may not even been in their source code but rather another gpl product..
  129. [10:53:19] <nairb> you might even be able to even with the current licensing, though I'm no lawyer. I mean, irc is an open spec, but if I started selling IRC clients for money that didn't implement the spec, wouldn't I be liable?
  130. [10:53:31] <flaccid> i don't see how
  131. [10:53:41] <nairb> no??
  132. [10:53:51] <flaccid> um
  133. [10:53:54] <flaccid> think larger
  134. [10:54:01] <nairb> if you bought something for money and it didn't do what it said it would do???
  135. [10:54:07] <nairb> you wouldn't feel like they legally owed you something?
  136. [10:54:48] <flaccid> there are millions of specs out there for whatever. there are millions of companies not implementing that spec with their own proprietery products. so really, what you are referring to is patents. and openid is not patented. if it was, i would have to apply and/or pay for a license to use it.
  137. [10:55:09] <flaccid> nairb have a look at iPhone. it doesn't do what the hardware does. its locked.
  138. [10:55:28] <nairb> i think apple should be sued. I hate apple.
  139. [10:55:40] <nairb> but that's another story.
  140. [10:55:47] <nairb> trademarks != patents
  141. [10:55:54] <nairb> someone still owns the name openid
  142. [10:55:56] <flaccid> see they implemented a lot of bsd style licenced stuff
  143. [10:56:05] <flaccid> which you can pretty much do whatever you want with
  144. [10:56:17] <flaccid> sure they own the trademark, but thats a trademark.
  145. [10:56:40] <nairb> no one owns the word "cheese," but if I opened a cheese company and sold butter in a package labelled "cheese," I certainly wouldn't last very long.
  146. [10:56:43] <nairb> it'd be illegal.
  147. [10:56:52] <flaccid> ah
  148. [10:56:54] <nairb> that's why there are so many jars of "cheeze" available in supermarkets.
  149. [10:57:02] <flaccid> that depends what country you are in and what legal bindings stand
  150. [10:57:06] <nairb> if there's a Z in the name, it's not cheese.
  151. [10:57:11] <flaccid> yes
  152. [10:57:16] <flaccid> its locality in this case
  153. [10:57:25] <nairb> if it's spelled "cheese" , it legally has to be cheese (in the US, though I don't live there right now)
  154. [10:57:33] <flaccid> global companies get litaged in different countries
  155. [10:58:20] <nairb> oops! 7pm, I gotta go home
  156. [10:58:22] <nairb> gnight
  157. [10:58:24] <flaccid> night
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  217. [21:57:23] <kephra> moin ... i wonder if its possible to login into a site using openid without javascript?
  218. [21:57:39] <kephra> and if openid itself is a bad idea, because of the risk of reverse cross site scripting
  219. [21:58:46] <kephra> is the javascript requirement specific to openid by design or just a fault of the implementor
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