IRC Log for #openid on 2009-11-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:39:23] * kcraig (n=kcraig@67.165.213.187) has joined #openid
  2. [00:59:03] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@ppp-70-251-194-5.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) has joined #openid
  3. [01:06:36] * kcraig (n=kcraig@67.165.213.187) Quit (Client Quit)
  4. [01:09:28] * kengyu (n=lex_@210.242.151.101) has joined #openid
  5. [01:18:46] * theMadness (n=petal@host50-5-static.58-217-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #openid
  6. [01:19:06] <theMadness> Any progress on the http-equiv="X-XRDS-Location" with html5 ?
  7. [01:48:44] <flaccid> what do you mean
  8. [01:50:55] <theMadness> in html5 http-equiv is an enumerated attribute of the element meta.
  9. [01:51:11] <flaccid> oh, your question is for w3c then
  10. [01:51:12] <theMadness> And its accepted values do not include "X-XRDS-Location"
  11. [01:51:24] <theMadness> whatwg actually, yeah.
  12. [01:51:47] <flaccid> out of interest does IE support HTML5 yet ?
  13. [01:52:21] <theMadness> I'd say HTML5 supports IE, in most parts.
  14. [01:52:36] <theMadness> The new stuff will only be supported (how much is not known) in IE9.
  15. [01:52:42] <flaccid> no in standards mode
  16. [01:53:08] <flaccid> quirks is just a graceful degrade for html5 in this situation, not real support
  17. [01:53:23] <theMadness> Define "real support"?
  18. [01:53:39] <theMadness> Because IE6-8 is not really supporting ANY standard.
  19. [01:56:36] <theMadness> flaccid?
  20. [01:56:52] <flaccid> exactly
  21. [01:57:08] <flaccid> but IE8 should iirc have a real standards mode that detects DTDs properly etc.
  22. [01:57:17] <theMadness> Allright:
  23. [01:57:29] <theMadness> Let me tell you something, DTDs are worthless.
  24. [01:57:34] <theMadness> They have always been.
  25. [01:57:49] <theMadness> The only use DTDs ever had is to trigger standard/quirks mode.
  26. [01:58:11] <theMadness> And the html5 doctype is enough to trigger standards.
  27. [01:58:33] <theMadness> No browser ever did anything with the DTDs, mime type always did the work.
  28. [01:58:47] <theMadness> DTDs are mildly useful when sending the page through a validator.
  29. [02:00:09] <theMadness> But in the end browsers know only 3 versions: html, quirky html and xhtml (with IE failing there), if the correct mime is sent, it'll be parsed as xhtml, otherwise it's either html or quirks html (in case the doctype is missing or seriously fubar)
  30. [02:01:22] <flaccid> theMadness: The only use DTDs ever had is to trigger standard/quirks mode.
  31. [02:01:27] <flaccid> exactly.
  32. [02:01:53] <flaccid> may i ask you to have a look at browsers such as firefox and opera
  33. [02:02:04] <flaccid> then remove a dtd in standards compliant mode.
  34. [02:03:01] <flaccid> you can server a text/html for example with or without a DTD, depending on what you are doing, they are going to render differently and be interpreted differently by the layout engine
  35. [02:03:28] <flaccid> (with or without the dtd)
  36. [02:04:22] <theMadness> What?
  37. [02:04:59] <flaccid> if you think dtds do nothing. then i invite you to read the source code of the gecko and webkit engines.
  38. [02:05:20] <theMadness> Yeah not serving the DTDs will trigger quirksmode in most browsers, but that's about it.
  39. [02:05:54] <flaccid> thats a bout it heh
  40. [02:05:58] <flaccid> well that is huge
  41. [02:06:18] <theMadness> <!DOCTYPE> is all you need tho.
  42. [02:06:24] <flaccid> its also ironic because you are the one that is not liking something being compliant yet are trying to argue that dtd are irrelevent...
  43. [02:06:28] <theMadness> The rest of the line is completely ignored.
  44. [02:06:31] <flaccid> sure thats the html5 doctype
  45. [02:06:39] <flaccid> thats html5
  46. [02:06:46] <flaccid> big deal..
  47. [02:06:59] <theMadness> No <!DOCTYPE html> is, but what I'm arguing is that the idea behind it dropped.
  48. [02:07:18] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@ppp-70-251-194-5.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  49. [02:07:19] <flaccid> oh yeah
  50. [02:07:22] <theMadness> Using the html 4.0 or the 4.01 transitional, or the frameset.... doesn't change a thing.
  51. [02:07:29] <flaccid> no it didn't drop
  52. [02:07:42] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@ppp-70-251-194-5.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) has joined #openid
  53. [02:07:46] <flaccid> you just think that the change in DTD means that UAs don't care anymore, thats bullshit
  54. [02:07:49] <theMadness> The browser understands only 3 states, and we don't have 3 doctypes, we have like a million.
  55. [02:07:58] <flaccid> um that is not true
  56. [02:08:10] <flaccid> wny don't you go look up dtd support
  57. [02:08:25] <flaccid> how do you think layout engines such as opera know that the doctype is mathml and to render it so
  58. [02:08:34] <flaccid> because it evaluates the DTD, duh...
  59. [02:09:13] <theMadness> tbh I think that opera interprets mathml even if the page has a wrong doctype.
  60. [02:09:33] <flaccid> also you could use say a xhtml 1.0 dtd, then switch it to xhtml 1.1, wow it gets renderered differently yet you claim the UA does not
  61. [02:10:00] <flaccid> that is only because opera introduced quirks mode back in 8 or something. this is irrelevent to standards mode.
  62. [02:10:17] <theMadness> Does it?
  63. [02:10:35] <theMadness> Let it be known that I gave up on xhtml long time ago.
  64. [02:10:46] <theMadness> But by my experience, no change has happened.
  65. [02:11:11] <flaccid> you havnt had enough experience
  66. [02:11:17] <theMadness> Well, that's not strictly true, with xhtml, sent with the right mime, you could get different error messages depending on which doctype you use.
  67. [02:11:18] <flaccid> i've been working with xhtml since it was released
  68. [02:11:32] <flaccid> im talking about with the same mimetype dude
  69. [02:11:49] <flaccid> but you just disproved yourself in that statement so thanks for that
  70. [02:12:08] <theMadness> Again, I really don't care about different forms of xhtml to be honest.
  71. [02:12:15] <flaccid> thats part of the problem
  72. [02:12:42] <theMadness> I guess the browsers that parse xhtml correctly may interpret things by actually taking the time to read the doctype.
  73. [02:12:59] <theMadness> But for html that's not going to happen.
  74. [02:13:02] <flaccid> why would you care if something is validated as invalid if you don't care how a browser interprets your code or renders it ?
  75. [02:13:20] <flaccid> yes this is what real browsers do theMadness, you just claim that they dont
  76. [02:13:25] <theMadness> I work in html, thus I can ignore xhtml.
  77. [02:13:51] <flaccid> right, so you work in html with is only sgml parsed, you don't care about dtds and yet somehow you care about 1 element being invalid
  78. [02:14:23] <theMadness> It's not that I don't care about DTDs, I'm realist about them.
  79. [02:14:33] <flaccid> and thats at the same time telling me that layout engines don't care about the dtd, yet you are showing me a parsing error with a html dtd specifically
  80. [02:14:37] <theMadness> Beyond having them there, there's not much a point.
  81. [02:14:46] <flaccid> thats your own ignorance dude
  82. [02:15:41] <theMadness> Let me rephrase and keep it simple.
  83. [02:15:52] <flaccid> nah im done with this convo sorry
  84. [02:16:26] <theMadness> In html it doesn't really matter (for the browser) which of the doctype you use, if you use one, the browser is content, it doesn't make further distinction.
  85. [02:16:45] <flaccid> ah man
  86. [02:16:51] <flaccid> the answer to that is no.
  87. [02:16:55] <flaccid> and im done here.
  88. [02:17:09] <theMadness> I don't get why you're antagonizing me.
  89. [02:22:32] <theMadness> anyway, I'm still intrested in finding a validating piece of code for an OpenID server in HTML5.
  90. [02:28:56] <yangman> theMadness: if http-equiv is no longer valid for that sort of use, don't use it. that's one of the two fallbacks for Yadis in any case
  91. [02:34:27] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@ppp-70-251-194-5.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  92. [02:38:48] <theMadness> yangman: I'm using the diso plugin for wordpress, I'm not sure if the other fallback (or non fallback) methods are active for Yadis.
  93. [02:42:19] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@70.251.194.5) has joined #openid
  94. [02:47:33] <yangman> theMadness: I'm not sure what you're getting at. that has nothing to do with HTML5
  95. [02:49:13] <theMadness> html5 states that no weird meta http-equiv values can be used.
  96. [02:49:52] <theMadness> And the wordpress plugin adds that on its own.
  97. [02:49:55] <yangman> so, a wordpress plugin is no good in that case unless it's able to inject data into the HTTP header itself
  98. [02:50:42] <yangman> but that doesn't stop you from just using it as an endpoint, just not a XRDS source
  99. [02:50:52] <theMadness> So basically you're saying, send the http header outside the html, like with a .htaccess command.
  100. [02:51:00] <yangman> yes
  101. [02:51:35] <theMadness> I'll consider it for when this project is (almost) done then.
  102. [02:51:55] <theMadness> Man, OpenID is easy to use, but the dev side of it can get messy.
  103. [02:52:24] <theMadness> Thank you.
  104. [02:52:56] <yangman> Yadis' order of determening XRDS sources is content negotiation, X-XRDS-Location in header, meta tag, then link tag
  105. [02:53:33] <theMadness> So a link tag would be nice, unless the consumer (I guess) is a poorly written one.
  106. [02:53:41] <yangman> the last one is XRDS-less endpoint discovery
  107. [02:54:24] <theMadness> I need to rtfm about XRDS. I can't really follow. Sorry about that.
  108. [02:57:17] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@70.251.194.5) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  109. [02:57:38] <yangman> the discovery protocol for Yadis is mainly to retrieve an XRDS document that contains identity information. in the context of OpenID, this is endpoint URL, etc
  110. [02:58:49] <yangman> and, in OpenID's case, even if Yadis fails, it can fall back to using <link> if a HTML file is retrieved
  111. [02:59:22] <theMadness> Which begs the question, why did diso even put the header there, in that case.
  112. [02:59:29] <theMadness> I mean the http-equiv meta.
  113. [03:00:06] <yangman> I don't think wordpress plugins are allowed to put stuff into header
  114. [03:00:42] * Kaliya (n=Adium@adsl-68-122-11-202.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #openid
  115. [03:00:49] <theMadness> Not sure, maybe with header(), but that's beyond the point.
  116. [03:01:04] <theMadness> What I mean is, if <link> just works, why not using that.
  117. [03:01:04] <yangman> but, *shrug*
  118. [03:01:31] <yangman> XRDS is preferred
  119. [03:27:57] * ryanmerket (n=rmerket@ppp-70-251-194-5.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) has joined #openid
  120. [03:32:12] <flaccid> may i also say here that http != html
  121. [03:33:31] <flaccid> you can do a header, not html element and html5 be happy or you can choose a html version that allows the meta element of that kind even though you don't care but you do care
  122. [03:36:10] <theMadness> I care about standards. I'm realist about browser support.
  123. [03:37:34] <yangman> this has nothing to do with your browser. Yadis discovery is performed by the OpenID consumer, not user
  124. [03:38:10] <theMadness> yangman, it was about a previous discussion. I know the user agent for that is not the browser.
  125. [03:39:29] <flaccid> if you don't care about dtds and don't think browsers do, then why use one and then complain about being invalid ?
  126. [03:40:06] <theMadness> I don't understand what should I care about DTDs.
  127. [03:40:35] <theMadness> I know what a DTD is, I use the correct one for the standard I'm using, but I'm disillusioned about how the browser will use it.
  128. [03:40:42] <theMadness> How is that wrong?
  129. [03:42:22] <flaccid> because you can't care and not care about something at the same time.
  130. [03:42:34] <theMadness> Heh, try me.
  131. [03:42:43] <theMadness> Jokes aside, what more should I care?
  132. [03:43:57] <theMadness> I know that I can define a custom DTD, I know the general idea, but I also know that what really matters is what the user agents are able to use, there's no point in creating a dtd defining a new element that no user agents ends up using.
  133. [03:47:50] <theMadness> flaccid: what's your beef man?
  134. [03:49:53] <flaccid> beef, i don't have any
  135. [03:50:36] <theMadness> Then why do you sound so mad?
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  138. [04:27:50] <flaccid> because you are reading it wrong. try reading it without tone
  139. [04:27:57] <flaccid> because there is no tone w/ text
  140. [04:28:30] <flaccid> maybe i sound mad because my respones are direct. this is because i work in IT and thus don't have heaps of time to be 'nice'
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  194. [19:33:38] <saati> hi
  195. [19:34:12] <saati> can you name an openid identity server which can easily extended to use a costum backend for users/passes?
  196. [19:39:55] <saati> in the topic, got it...
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