IRC Log for #openid on 2010-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  91. [20:06:36] * Theorem (~hpeixoto@a95-93-183-83.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #openid
  92. [20:08:29] * Tony__ (~81311ab4@gateway/web/freenode/x-lptdtblkpcsepjnu) has joined #openid
  93. [20:08:44] <Tony__> Hi, can anyone answer a few questions I have?
  94. [20:08:59] <Tony__> I'm doing a research project on OpenID.
  95. [20:09:28] <karstensrage> ask and we shall see
  96. [20:09:48] * Kaliya (~Adium@adsl-69-104-141-186.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #openid
  97. [20:10:26] <Tony__> Okay, how much $ would it take to implement OpenID with keystroke dynamic technology to improve security?
  98. [20:11:02] <karstensrage> how much money does it take to implement keystroke dynamic technology without OpenID?
  99. [20:11:21] <Tony__> free?
  100. [20:11:42] <karstensrage> then free with openid
  101. [20:11:42] <Tony__> how much would it take to develop or customize openID's login processes?
  102. [20:11:57] <karstensrage> openId doesnt specify the login process
  103. [20:11:58] <Tony__> well its programmers time.
  104. [20:12:53] <Tony__> how much per hour does it require for someone that has a level of understanding of openID to customize the login process?
  105. [20:13:10] <karstensrage> open ID doesnt specify the login process
  106. [20:13:34] <karstensrage> there is no "login process" with open iD
  107. [20:13:42] <Tony__> i understand that.
  108. [20:13:55] <karstensrage> ok so your question is meaningless
  109. [20:13:56] <Tony__> i guess what im asking is how much would a typical programmer charge for his/her time?
  110. [20:14:01] <karstensrage> lol
  111. [20:14:06] <karstensrage> depends on the programmer
  112. [20:14:08] <Tony__> someone with background knowlledge of openid
  113. [20:14:16] <Tony__> can u give me a ball park?
  114. [20:14:23] <karstensrage> say 65/hour in the sf bay area
  115. [20:15:12] <Tony__> i think its much higher no?
  116. [20:15:24] <Tony__> heres the details of what im trying to do
  117. [20:15:24] <karstensrage> dude
  118. [20:15:34] <karstensrage> if you already know why are you asking?
  119. [20:16:04] <Tony__> i need someone with knoweldge of openID, keystroke dynamics and RSA SecurID, and implement all that into ONE SECURE OpenID Provider.
  120. [20:16:39] <Tony__> keystoke dynamics is when they measure your keystroke to identitfy you.
  121. [20:16:58] <karstensrage> i know what keystroke dynamics is
  122. [20:17:00] <Tony__> and SecurID is that auto generating security key that you have to put in to make it work
  123. [20:17:02] <Tony__> ok
  124. [20:17:06] <Tony__> just incase.. lol
  125. [20:17:06] <karstensrage> look
  126. [20:17:10] <Tony__> im listening
  127. [20:17:14] <karstensrage> open id is a protocol
  128. [20:17:25] * Theorem is now known as Politoed
  129. [20:17:29] <karstensrage> it DOES NOT care how you authenticate
  130. [20:17:35] <Tony__> ok
  131. [20:18:02] <karstensrage> so just baseline the cost of implementing the cost of all that authentication and then put on TOP of that the open id protocol\
  132. [20:18:10] * Kaliya (~Adium@adsl-69-104-141-186.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  133. [20:18:23] <Tony__> exactly, im trying to guesstimate that cost
  134. [20:18:32] <Tony__> you put it in words for me thank u hhaha
  135. [20:18:35] <yangman> none of this has anything to do with keystroke dyanmics nor openid
  136. [20:18:43] <yangman> it's "how much do competent programmers cost?"
  137. [20:19:04] <Tony__> im looking for a roudabout number..
  138. [20:19:31] <karstensrage> id estimate a month at 64/hour
  139. [20:19:34] <karstensrage> 65
  140. [20:19:39] * Kaliya (~Adium@adsl-69-104-141-186.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #openid
  141. [20:19:49] <karstensrage> thats just a SWAG
  142. [20:20:05] <Tony__> ok thanks.
  143. [20:20:09] <Tony__> how many hours in a day may i ask?
  144. [20:20:13] <karstensrage> SecureID btw, is 4K/month TCO
  145. [20:20:14] <Tony__> 40?
  146. [20:20:48] <karstensrage> yes 40 hours
  147. [20:21:02] <Tony__> how much hourly you think in NYC?
  148. [20:21:07] <karstensrage> no idea
  149. [20:21:07] <Tony__> more or less than 65?
  150. [20:21:11] <karstensrage> im in the bay area
  151. [20:21:11] <Tony__> im not in the industry sorry
  152. [20:21:15] <Tony__> im in nyc
  153. [20:21:26] <karstensrage> id guess slightly less but not so that it matters
  154. [20:21:55] <Tony__> so im lookin at about 10K-15K
  155. [20:22:07] <karstensrage> sounds right
  156. [20:22:12] <Tony__> THANK YOU!!!!
  157. [20:22:15] <Tony__> you have been great help
  158. [20:22:22] <Tony__> what do you do?
  159. [20:22:25] <karstensrage> but secure ID is 4K/month TCO.. you have to factor that in too
  160. [20:22:33] <Tony__> yep thanks
  161. [20:22:34] <karstensrage> just having it
  162. [20:22:36] <Tony__> sweet
  163. [20:22:51] <karstensrage> and i dont know what the licensing model around keystroke analysis is
  164. [20:22:54] <Tony__> this is a tech assesment project i need to do for school
  165. [20:23:26] <Tony__> do you work in the IT field? or similiar?
  166. [20:24:05] <karstensrage> i work in the IT field and i have more than a passing interest in security and authentication
  167. [20:24:38] <karstensrage> what kind of school ?
  168. [20:24:45] <Tony__> I attend stony brook university
  169. [20:25:17] <karstensrage> Business, Tech?
  170. [20:25:29] <Tony__> Technology Systems Management
  171. [20:25:47] <karstensrage> ic
  172. [20:26:06] <Tony__> may i reference you in my paper?
  173. [20:26:28] <karstensrage> haha
  174. [20:26:29] <karstensrage> sure
  175. [20:28:10] <Tony__> and what industry would you think is most insecure? i was thinking of the banking industry
  176. [20:29:12] <yangman> why would banking be the most insecure?
  177. [20:29:22] <karstensrage> banking, healthcare, but really everything, the social networking effect is putting tons of PII out there
  178. [20:33:50] <Tony__> i mean, not most insecure but very important, its peoples money and people want to keep it safe.
  179. [20:34:07] <Tony__> can you think of a better industry to apply this to?
  180. [20:35:16] <yangman> applying what, exactly?
  181. [20:35:30] <Tony__> applying a more securid openid.
  182. [20:35:47] <yangman> huh?
  183. [20:35:51] <Tony__> i think the US goverment has openID across all their govermental websites for citizens
  184. [20:37:09] <yangman> I don't think that's true yet
  185. [20:37:52] <Tony__> well can you say they are at least working on it?
  186. [20:38:27] <Tony__> http://openid.net/docs/Open_Trust_Frameworks_for_Govts.pdf
  187. [20:39:06] <yangman> that says nothing about what the whitehouse is actually doing
  188. [20:42:30] <Tony__> well the point is , i want to know the costs of implementing openid with beefed up security
  189. [20:43:04] * daleolds (~daleolds@137.65.229.62) has left #openid
  190. [20:43:20] <yangman> first of all, frankly, that's a stupid question to ask
  191. [20:43:34] <yangman> secondly, what's the high level problem that you are seeking a solutio to?
  192. [20:45:25] <yangman> security is always a continum of tradeoffs between convenience and strength. almost all secure protocols have certain underlying trust assumptions
  193. [20:45:53] <yangman> openid is already as secure as it can be in relation to the base assumptions that are made, and assumed to be acceptable
  194. [20:46:15] <Tony__> what assumptions do you speak about in particular to openid
  195. [20:46:55] <yangman> non-malicious HTTP infrastrucure (trusted routing and DNS)
  196. [20:47:03] <yangman> trusted hosting
  197. [20:47:28] <yangman> and trust in the OpenID provider itself
  198. [20:48:35] <yangman> and OpenID is a way to assert control over an URL. not identity, and not even ownership. the key is "control"
  199. [20:49:51] <Tony__> okay thank you everryone.
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  202. [21:40:42] <Kaliya> they are only using OpenID for LOA1 - basically the level that says "we don't want to know who you are"
  203. [21:40:55] <Kaliya> anything above LOA1 requires the use of information cards
  204. [21:41:05] <Kaliya> cause they actaully have tools in those systems for managing credentials.
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  211. [22:38:39] <snet> is anyone available on stackoverflow to look at my open question?
  212. [22:41:16] <yangman> snet: you should link to the question so people know what you're talking about
  213. [22:42:48] <snet> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2405199/openid-php-library-janrain-and-setting-the-auth-openid-rand-source-to-null
  214. [22:43:50] <karstensrage> windows doesnt have an equivalent unless you get into microsoft coding
  215. [22:44:31] <snet> k
  216. [22:47:35] <snet> This is the error it throws when I try to use /dev/random on my linux server
  217. [22:47:36] <snet> "Define Auth_OpenID_RAND_SOURCE as null to continue with an insecure random number generator"
  218. [22:48:15] <snet> Why is it saying /dev/urandom is an insecure random number generator?
  219. [22:52:49] <yangman> snet: it's not crypographically secure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator
  220. [22:52:54] <yangman> snet: for a lot of uses, this isn't an issue
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