IRC Log for #openid on 2010-03-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  41. [12:29:29] <acegiak> is there still anywhere i can diagnose problems with my openid?
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  66. [15:48:29] <nickaugust> anyone expereinced with python-openid? I'm getting a "kvToSeq warning: Line 1 does not contain a colon: " error.
  67. [15:55:12] <nickaugust> oh wait I added a '/' to the end of my URI as per http://whynotwiki.com/OpenID and now i'm getting "kvToSeq warning: Does not end in a newline:" yay! progress! :)
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  88. [19:22:46] <bungleirc> hi all
  89. [19:23:00] <bungleirc> one question about openid... do i have to use discovery
  90. [19:23:24] <bungleirc> why do we have discovery, if we can have direct urls?
  91. [19:24:08] <bungleirc> e.g. can i use https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/ud directly without first querying https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?
  92. [19:29:26] <bungleirc> on the other had openid is said to be chatty in dumy mode, but discovery phase is considered needed? i don't follow
  93. [19:31:14] <yangman> discovery is also for finding the endpoint URL. you can't talk to the OP if you don't know where it is
  94. [19:34:30] <bungleirc> but in case of google i always know?
  95. [19:34:48] <bungleirc> why does google recommend to have separate discovery phase?
  96. [19:36:08] <bungleirc> i know that some openid implementations give you url that is not op, but that you have to discover that first, it feels kinda dumb
  97. [19:37:07] <yangman> the identity is always authoratative. if you assume OP locations, you're breaking protocol
  98. [19:37:09] <yangman> simple as that
  99. [19:37:34] <bungleirc> are you saying that google is breaking th protocol?
  100. [19:38:16] <yangman> I'm not sure what about google's implementation you're talking about
  101. [19:38:37] <bungleirc> http://code.google.com/apis/accounts/docs/OpenID.html
  102. [19:38:39] <bungleirc> this
  103. [19:38:56] <yangman> what about this?
  104. [19:38:59] <yangman> be specific
  105. [19:40:01] <bungleirc> well... google says to you that you have to discover using https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id but it always gives you end point url https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/ud
  106. [19:40:10] <bungleirc> so what's the pois in discovery here?
  107. [19:40:54] <bungleirc> and you can authenticate anyone using this url
  108. [19:41:02] <yangman> to retrieve the actual OpenID identity
  109. [19:42:13] <bungleirc> hmm... i don't follow
  110. [19:42:18] <bungleirc> can you elaborate more?
  111. [19:42:29] <yangman> it's something people are calling directed identity
  112. [19:42:47] <bungleirc> the google's one?
  113. [19:42:48] <yangman> google generates unique IDs for each user/consumer pairing
  114. [19:43:18] <bungleirc> well ok, but where do i need discovery with that then?
  115. [19:43:30] <bungleirc> because every user has same directed url
  116. [19:43:31] <yangman> so, in their first implementation, that single URL is used to discover this unique ID
  117. [19:44:05] <bungleirc> well it's not... it always give you the same url that you can use
  118. [19:44:20] <yangman> sounds like you're consumer is doing it wrong
  119. [19:44:33] <yangman> the claimed_id coming back should be unique
  120. [19:45:12] <bungleirc> of course it is but that's just after checkid_setup
  121. [19:45:26] <bungleirc> but checkin_setup url is always https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/ud
  122. [19:46:42] <yangman> well, nothing says that won't ever change
  123. [19:46:55] <yangman> again, doing otherwise is breaking protocol
  124. [19:47:16] <bungleirc> doing without discovery?
  125. [19:47:20] <yangman> yes
  126. [19:48:51] <bungleirc> and then we have all this complexity because people thought that doing dummy mode authentication check is chatty
  127. [19:50:43] <bungleirc> this protocol looked kinda neat in a few years ago, now it's looking like ws-*
  128. [19:51:58] * Kaliya (~Adium@dsl092-167-225.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #openid
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  130. [19:52:43] <yangman> I'm not sure why you're passing judgement against OpenID based on a single implementation
  131. [19:53:10] <yangman> an implementation that a lot of people think isn't in the spirit of OpenID, and some claim to even be broken
  132. [19:53:33] <bungleirc> ok... but they have all the identities, and face book
  133. [19:53:59] <yangman> what about facebook? facebook has never done openid "right"
  134. [19:54:21] <bungleirc> i kinda like google's implementation, but i was just thinking that can i leave discovery phase
  135. [19:54:35] * berkes (~ber@a83-163-58-51.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  136. [19:54:39] <bungleirc> i know i can, but i was just looking at is there some bad side effects
  137. [19:54:46] <yangman> and not everybody is google
  138. [19:55:01] <yangman> plenty of people use a different OP service or run their own
  139. [20:00:08] <bungleirc> google has also this profiles openid
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  141. [20:00:16] <bungleirc> where you need to enter a name
  142. [20:00:22] <bungleirc> or url if you wish
  143. [20:01:19] <yangman> profile openid is more vanilla, afaik
  144. [20:01:34] <yangman> no directed ID there
  145. [20:02:28] <bungleirc> yes, and in that i perfectly understand discovery.... but then again... why cannot op answer in same location?
  146. [20:02:44] <yangman> huh?
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  148. [20:04:19] <bungleirc> yahoo and google seem to implement directed id
  149. [20:05:31] <bungleirc> yangman: what huh about it? if i have xxx.idopen.com url why cannot i just send checkid_setup there... why i need to grap some yadis document that i have to parse and then move to another location
  150. [20:05:32] <yangman> uh-huh
  151. [20:06:33] <yangman> there is no guarantee the OP url won't change
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  153. [20:07:03] <yangman> there's also no guarantee any given identity is also an endpoint
  154. [20:07:50] <bungleirc> well except if i give you guranteee?
  155. [20:08:14] <bungleirc> why is it so hard to gve that gurantee... i don't see anything hard there
  156. [20:08:26] <yangman> it's an explicit flexibility in the protocol
  157. [20:08:32] <yangman> the identity URL is authoratative
  158. [20:08:43] <yangman> it may decide to change the endpoint arbitrarily
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  161. [20:14:03] <bungleirc> well... the point seems to be that if you give ability to user to enter the url, then i see that discovery needs to happen, and there is no gurantees that the url is actually directed
  162. [20:14:14] <yangman> ok, look. a very explicit design goal of the protocol is to decouple the identity URL from the server that talks OpenID
  163. [20:14:21] <bungleirc> so that's why google propably recommends to use discovery
  164. [20:14:57] <yangman> to make sure this mechanism is trustworthy enough, you need to do discovery
  165. [20:15:23] <bungleirc> but entering a url in html page to do authentication will always feel very foreign to normal users
  166. [20:15:46] <yangman> yse, people have been beating that dead horse for *years*
  167. [20:16:03] <bungleirc> if there is a text that click this google icon to authenticate, i see that people might even use it
  168. [20:16:51] <bungleirc> that's why i feel the future is in directed mode
  169. [20:17:46] <yangman> you're looking at this from the persepctive of "what has people implemented today?" instead of "what was openid set out to solve 5 years ago, and what were the compromises to make it Good Enough?"
  170. [20:17:59] <bungleirc> but that will most propably hurt decentralization idea and give identities to a few
  171. [20:18:25] <bungleirc> i mean the directed thing
  172. [20:19:27] <bungleirc> yep.... i'm just building my small site, maybe i will give users google and then my own proprietary login... i think that i will not confuse people with millions of options and urls and stuff like that
  173. [20:19:55] <yangman> that's your freedom to choose
  174. [20:20:15] <yangman> but it's not a sound nor logical basis to critise the protocol itself
  175. [20:20:29] <bungleirc> i agree
  176. [20:20:31] <yangman> also, doing something like that means you make it unusable for people like me that run their own OP
  177. [20:20:34] <yangman> YMMV
  178. [20:21:11] <bungleirc> yangman: this is hard... there is usability and then there is flexibility... i don't know
  179. [20:21:23] <yangman> welcome to 2006 ;)
  180. [20:22:30] * singpolyma (~singpolym@66.49.155.145) has left #openid
  181. [20:22:49] <bungleirc> stackoverflow's login doesnt look too hard, but their growd is technical oriented
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  210. [23:13:36] * Topic is 'http://openid.net | Got OpenID library questions? Check stackoverflow.com.'
  211. [23:13:36] * Set by yangman on Wed Oct 28 18:53:18 GMT+01:00 2009
  212. [23:13:40] * karstensrage (~chatzilla@ffnat.copart.com) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
  213. [23:23:57] * chuck_ (~charlie@yourwiki/staff/charlie) has joined #openid
  214. [23:23:58] * lexical (~kengyu@210.242.151.101) has joined #openid
  215. [23:26:24] * oxi (~oxi@unaffiliated/oxi) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  216. [23:26:24] * xpo (~xpo@bearstech/xpo) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  217. [23:26:25] * kengyu (~kengyu@210.242.151.101) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  218. [23:26:25] * chuck (~charlie@yourwiki/staff/charlie) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  219. [23:26:32] * oxi (~oxi@unaffiliated/oxi) has joined #openid
  220. [23:53:09] * MacTed (~Thud@c-24-61-62-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #openid
  221. [23:54:25] * tjgillies (~tyler@66-233-243-26.war.clearwire-wmx.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)

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