IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:03:19] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: well, we're going to exercise it!
- [00:03:26] <kingryan>
go for it
- [00:05:16] <bkdelong>
back
- [00:08:23] <bkdelong>
Oh - factoryjoe: Is Rhyzomatic online yet? kingryan and I were discussing how it resembles one of the posts I made on my blog today: http://www.brain-stream.com/blog/archives/001888.html
- [00:08:36] <factoryjoe>
nope
- [00:08:37] <factoryjoe>
not yet
- [00:08:42] <factoryjoe>
i came across claimid.com today
- [00:08:55] <bkdelong>
What is it?
- [00:09:04] <factoryjoe>
dunno
- [00:09:07] <factoryjoe>
"stealth"
- [00:09:11] <kingryan>
looks cool
- [00:09:14] <kingryan>
:)
- [00:09:32] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=4200 * RyanKing * (+89)
- [00:09:57] <bkdelong>
I've seen a few good uses of citation on the example hresumes
- [00:11:12] <kingryan>
well, it'd be nice to have a citation micoformat to be used in hresume
- [00:12:04] <factoryjoe>
hey
- [00:12:08] <factoryjoe>
so i should i use vtodo?
- [00:12:11] <factoryjoe>
or..
- [00:12:13] <bkdelong>
There's some listed in the todo section of the wiki, isn't there?
- [00:12:14] <factoryjoe>
hTodo i mean?
- [00:12:18] <factoryjoe>
no
- [00:12:21] <factoryjoe>
not that i saw
- [00:12:22] <factoryjoe>
url?
- [00:12:28] <bkdelong>
I meant for citations, not todo
- [00:12:44] <bkdelong>
Is there a vCalendar equiv for tasks?
- [00:12:45] <kingryan>
vtodo is part of hcalendar
- [00:12:48] <kingryan>
yeah
- [00:12:52] <kingryan>
VTODO
- [00:12:56] <bkdelong>
Gotcha
- [00:12:59] <factoryjoe>
so ryan, is it htodo?
- [00:13:01] <kingryan>
no
- [00:13:04] <kingryan>
its hcalendar
- [00:13:08] <factoryjoe>
um
- [00:13:11] <kingryan>
yes
- [00:13:12] <factoryjoe>
hcalendar and then what?
- [00:13:22] <kingryan>
whatcha mean?
- [00:13:22] <factoryjoe>
how do i identify a task?
- [00:13:26] <bkdelong>
I'm guessing vtodo is already microformatted as part of hcalendar. :)
- [00:13:30] <bkdelong>
Registered through: GoDaddy.com
- [00:13:30] <bkdelong>
Domain Name: CLAIMID.COM
- [00:13:30] <bkdelong>
Created on: 29-Sep-05
- [00:13:30] <bkdelong>
Expires on: 29-Sep-07
- [00:13:30] <bkdelong>
Last Updated on: 07-Oct-05
- [00:13:31] <factoryjoe>
right
- [00:13:33] <bkdelong>
Administrative Contact:
- [00:13:35] <bkdelong>
Stutzman, Frederic fred@ibiblio.org
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- [00:13:41] <factoryjoe>
ibiblio... whoa
- [00:14:16] <kingryan>
I guess this is our only example: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples#Example_4
- [00:14:35] <bkdelong>
"I am in the process of starting a company named claimID.com, which will fundamentally change how people manage their online identities."
- [00:14:38] <factoryjoe>
yup
- [00:14:39] <bkdelong>
http://www.ibiblio.org/fred/
- [00:14:39] <factoryjoe>
just saw that
- [00:14:41] <factoryjoe>
sorry
- [00:14:44] <kingryan>
but there's probably more examples in the rfc that I could pull out and microformat for you
- [00:14:51] <factoryjoe>
no, that's ok
- [00:14:55] <factoryjoe>
i can take it from here methinks
- [00:14:57] <factoryjoe>
just missed that
- [00:15:01] <factoryjoe>
was looking for htodo
- [00:15:02] <factoryjoe>
duh
- [00:15:04] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:15:08] <bkdelong>
http://chimprawk.blogspot.com/2006/01/claimid-accepting-addresses-for.html
- [00:16:37] <factoryjoe>
huh
- [00:17:12] <kingryan>
ah, there's no more examples in the rfc, but I could do some from ical
- [00:17:54] <bkdelong>
So are any vtodo properties referenced in the hcalendar spec?
- [00:17:59] <bkdelong>
or jus examples?
- [00:18:07] <kingryan>
just examples
- [00:18:17] <kingryan>
like I said, this hasn't been exercised much
- [00:18:22] <kingryan>
so there's probably hidden issues
- [00:18:35] <factoryjoe>
we're using it on our event in a box creator
- [00:18:39] <factoryjoe>
should be interesting
- [00:19:08] <bkdelong>
So re: doing htodo, factoryjoe - it sounds like we could use some properties directly in the spec. Yes?
- [00:19:45] <kingryan>
btw, factoryjoe, http://microformats.org/blog/2006/01/17/microformats-are-semantic-markup/
- [00:20:55] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: yeah, saw that
- [00:20:59] <factoryjoe>
thx for the mention
- [00:21:08] <factoryjoe>
(i added your citation to my post, fyi)
- [00:22:02] <factoryjoe>
fyi: typo: marjority
- [00:22:32] <factoryjoe>
and close your quote
- [00:22:35] <factoryjoe>
on cowpaths
- [00:22:44] <factoryjoe>
btw, i can't tell if you're saying that i'm doing the right thing or not...
- [00:24:32] <bkdelong>
heheh
- [00:24:56] <kingryan>
I don't think I did say :D
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- [00:34:16] <factoryjoe>
is there an hcalendar validator?
- [00:35:39] <tantek>
x2v does some checking/validation
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- [00:36:59] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [00:37:08] <factoryjoe>
x2v url?
- [00:37:38] <tantek>
oh where did jibot go?
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- [00:38:56] <bkdelong>
dunno. Logged off last night I think
- [00:39:33] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [00:39:36] <factoryjoe>
hey tara
- [00:39:42] <tara>
hey
- [00:40:18] <tara>
I'm looking at the pictures, but I can't make out the whiteboards...I'm dying to see how everything turns out
- [00:41:55] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:41:58] <factoryjoe>
well i hope!
- [00:42:00] <factoryjoe>
i have photos
- [00:42:04] <tara>
awesome
- [00:42:05] <factoryjoe>
but my cradle is @ your place!
- [00:42:11] <tara>
ooops
- [00:42:13] <factoryjoe>
whuffietracker.com
- [00:42:14] <tantek>
what pictures?
- [00:42:19] <factoryjoe>
that's one project
- [00:42:21] <factoryjoe>
just for you
- [00:42:24] <factoryjoe>
an egotracker!
- [00:42:29] <factoryjoe>
:P
- [00:42:42] <tara>
that sounds amazing! what bloggers need...more about US!
- [00:42:52] <factoryjoe>
hehe
- [00:42:59] <tara>
Did you need me to bring you your cradle later on?
- [00:43:19] <factoryjoe>
ah no, not unless you were already coming out... which you're not.. ;)
- [00:43:24] <tara>
k
- [00:43:32] <factoryjoe>
maybe i'll swing by and pick it up before i head home
- [00:43:41] <tara>
:)
- [00:43:48] * factoryjoe so needs a wifi/bluetooth camera!
- [00:44:05] * tara happens to have one but doesn't use it
- [00:44:55] <tara>
Being away from these events, I totally understand the need for 'updates' for the people who can't be there
- [00:45:07] <tara>
We should brainstorm really simple ways to do that
- [00:46:34] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [00:47:54] <tara>
ooooo I just read...there is a mashpit backchannel
- [00:49:15] <factoryjoe>
yeeeesssssss
- [00:49:17] <factoryjoe>
#mashpit
- [00:49:24] <tara>
in
- [00:56:51] <bkdelong>
Has anyone told Cory about wuffietracker?
- [00:57:44] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples&diff=0&oldid=4201 * RyanKing * (+2782) more examples for chris (still @TODO)
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- [01:17:46] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4202 * RyanKing * (+2386) Resumes from the wild - added some breakdown on DanC's CV
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[[cite-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-examples&diff=0&oldid=4203 * MarkRickerby * (+1) fixed a typo
- [04:39:18] <mfbot>
[[cite-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-examples&diff=0&oldid=4204 * MarkRickerby * (+88) added extra pre tags for readability
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- [05:13:40] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4205 * MarkRickerby * (+150) added DocBook section
- [05:22:01] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4206 * EdwardVielmetti * (+1131) MARC / MODS / Dublin Core -
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- [05:24:49] <tantek>
hmm... that looks like it belongs in cite-formats, not cite-brainstorming
- [05:25:13] <tantek>
actually, quite a bit of cite-brainstorming belongs in cite-formats
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- [05:26:42] <emv>
helloooo
- [05:29:23] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4207 * MarkRickerby * (+1021) DocBook -
- [05:30:44] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4208 * Tantek * (+501) noted that many sections should be moved to cite-formats
- [05:33:05] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4209 * EdwardVielmetti * (-1487) Ann Arbor District Library XML feed -
- [05:33:31] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4210 * EdwardVielmetti * (+1487) DocBook -
- [05:34:32] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4211 * EdwardVielmetti * (-256) Ann Arbor District Library XML feed -
- [05:34:58] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4212 * EdwardVielmetti * (+0) Ann Arbor District Library XML feed -
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- [05:37:24] <mfbot>
[[User:EdwardVielmetti]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:EdwardVielmetti * EdwardVielmetti * (+325) eh
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- [05:38:20] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4213 * MarkRickerby * (+89) tidied up header
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- [05:38:36] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4214 * MarkRickerby * (+61) added links to header
- [05:39:27] <mfbot>
[[cite-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-examples&diff=0&oldid=4215 * MarkRickerby * (+66) added links to header
- [05:42:13] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4216 * MarkRickerby * (+18) added cite-formats link
- [05:53:16] <emv>
hi ryan
- [05:54:52] <kingryan>
hi emv
- [05:57:53] <Frederic>
hello
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[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4217 * Tantek * (+113) Examples -
- [09:31:16] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4218 * Tantek * (+114) New Examples -
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- [13:52:36] <bkdelong>
Morning all.
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[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=4219 * B.K. DeLong * (+39) People on irc -
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[[irc]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=4220 * B.K. DeLong * (+1) People on irc -
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- [16:58:31] <tantek>
hey bk
- [16:58:44] <tantek>
yesterday ( I think ) you asked about a profile for adr
- [16:58:50] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
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- [16:59:05] <tantek>
it's right there in the spec
- [16:59:34] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#XMDP_Profile
- [16:59:47] <tantek>
because adr is a proper subset of hCard, there is no need for a separate profile
- [16:59:58] <tantek>
authors using adr simply use the hCard profile and they're done
- [17:00:01] <tantek>
similarly with geo
- [17:01:22] <mfbot>
[[adr-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-examples&diff=0&oldid=4221 * Tantek * (+15) fixed use of "country" to be "country-name"
- [17:06:00] <emose>
tantek: is there any theory about how stuff parsing hCalendar vevents should deal with other classnames in the vevents?
- [17:06:14] <tantek>
mustignore
- [17:06:38] <emose>
tantek: so there's no way to include x- classnames, i assume
- [17:07:03] <emose>
since the parser can't know a priori whether a classname is intended to be an x- vcalendar prop, or just something else
- [17:16:05] <tantek>
correct
- [17:16:23] <tantek>
x- classnames are non-standard anyway, and therefore not interoperable
- [17:16:38] <tantek>
much better to just use additional semantic markup and see what patterns evolve
- [17:18:24] <emose>
ok, thanks
- [17:18:44] <cgriego>
a problem with class="x-property" is how would a parser know what it belonged to if 2 microformats where overlapping like an hCard inside an hCal?
- [17:19:56] <emose>
given that hCal and hCard share a bunch of property names, isn't the existence of that problem independent of x- stuff?
- [17:20:41] <cgriego>
what do they share?
- [17:20:50] <emose>
URL is one
- [17:21:16] <emose>
maybe "a bunch" is wrong
- [17:21:20] <cgriego>
true
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[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4222 * Steve Ganz * (+468) Experiments in microformatting -
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- [18:30:10] <bewest|work>
I'm curious about this web(page|site) as an api thing
- [18:30:36] <bewest|work>
let's say you have an application that needs data about something that is on the web
- [18:31:07] <bewest|work>
it's not terribly difficult I suspect to find a resource with the content you need... worst case you could simply screen scrape google or yahoo
- [18:31:19] <bewest|work>
so that would give you a starting point
- [18:31:45] <bewest|work>
but parsing out the data of interest would be incredibly difficult
- [18:31:58] <bewest|work>
since different topics have different attributes of interest
- [18:32:18] <hober>
bewest|work: sure, if the quality of the markup is poor
- [18:32:24] <hober>
but if you control the markup you're parsing
- [18:32:35] <hober>
you can make the markup nicer
- [18:32:39] <hober>
and easier to parse
- [18:33:11] <bewest|work>
well... maybe... is there another service, perhaps similar to google that does the spidering for and parsing for you but will actually return a list of attributes rather than markup
- [18:33:53] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("Getting work done.")
- [18:34:09] <bewest|work>
for example, let's say my application is a mashup of ski resorts, weather, and maps
- [18:34:39] <bewest|work>
it'd be interesting to be able to place ski resorts on the map as a result of some web searching...
- [18:34:49] <bewest|work>
that much is conceivable
- [18:35:26] <bewest|work>
but then grabbing other attributes... like somehow finding how many lifts the resort has as a result of using their webpages as an API, that seems extraordinarily difficult
- [18:38:57] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
- [18:39:05] <Atamido>
bewest|work: I suspect that most people doing this kind of work will custom program for each site they need to spider.
- [18:39:30] <Atamido>
Of course, for something like that where it is only one piece of information, it would be easier to enter it by hand.
- [18:40:45] <bewest|work>
ok, but in order for wide-spread adoption... people aren't going to be building thousands of spiders to do this kind of work
- [18:41:02] <bewest|work>
Atamido: it would be easier by hand if you had a definitive list
- [18:41:21] <bewest|work>
I guess that's life
- [18:41:29] <bewest|work>
no holy-grail to this
- [18:41:46] <bewest|work>
it's damnably seductive though
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- [18:51:32] <mfbot>
[[hreview-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=4223 * ScottReynen * (+184) hReview issues -
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- [18:54:20] <Atamido>
bewest|work: If you want to define how every single type of website should store each piece of information, you will end up with a dictionary.
- [18:54:55] <Atamido>
If you have a specific need, come up with a standard and email all applicable websites requesting that they update their sites.
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- [19:05:13] <RobertBachmann>
I didn't follow the recent discussion but I think the markup of this channel's log plus the JavaScript which utilizes this markup is a case of 'my website is my API'
- [19:09:52] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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- [19:11:01] <bewest|work>
it's roughly how technorati works, right? technorati surfs the web and captures attributes about a targeted topic: the topic is blogs and the attributes are categories and posts
- [19:12:03] <bewest|work>
but it's a tightly coupled... the topic is already known and the attributes are fixed
- [19:12:28] <bewest|work>
if you wanted to do one for say, ski resorts... you'd have to develop a completely new spider and parser
- [19:14:13] <kingryan>
mornin'
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- [19:21:10] <Atamido>
Wow, Dreamweaver 8 actually produces pages that are semantically correct.
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- [19:41:00] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4224 * RyanKing * (+0) Amazon.com - amazon does not allow you to enter a review with out giving a rating in [1,5]
- [19:43:21] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4225 * RyanKing * (+226) Mini-review - fixed the interval for amazon mini reviews
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[[reviews-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4226 * DannyAyers * (+351) REV -
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- [20:36:19] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4227 * DannyAyers * (+176) RDF Review Vocabulary -
- [20:45:15] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4228 * EdwardVielmetti * (+774) Ann Arbor District Library XML feed -
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- [21:11:01] <pnhChris>
now whats that common saying about comcast?
- [21:11:22] <pnhChris>
cause it applies
- [21:11:25] <pnhChris>
:P
- [21:11:50] <pnhChris>
oops.. wong channel hehe
- [21:20:22] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4229 * ScottReynen * (+6) Yahoo! Local -
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- [21:33:49] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4230 * RyanKing * (+5907) Resumes from the wild - added some analysis of tantek's resume
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- [22:15:04] * Atamido slaps mfbot with a trout.
- [22:21:42] <kingryan>
what's wrong with mfbot?
- [22:23:05] * pantosys (n=pantosys@adsl-70-234-48-41.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:23:32] <pantosys>
hoi hoi.
- [22:24:00] <pantosys>
anyone interested in solving a problem?
- [22:26:17] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [22:30:51] <pantosys>
briefly: Friend-list ala mySpace, based on xfn and hCard. Problems: is there a proper way to note the that the vcard representation is not a representation of people at the site, but contacts of the site?
- [22:32:04] <kingryan>
not really, pantosys
- [22:32:27] <kingryan>
of course, if you're looking to denote the person responsible for the site, you should use <address>
- [22:32:49] <pantosys>
huh?
- [22:33:00] <kingryan>
not familiar with <address> ?
- [22:33:02] <pantosys>
around the hcard?
- [22:33:22] <kingryan>
<address class="vcard">...</address>
- [22:33:46] <pantosys>
well, that should have been obvious.
- [22:35:39] <pantosys>
then contact hcards could be <li class="vcard"> ... <a class="url" href="..." rel="met ...">...</a></li>
- [22:39:25] <kingryan>
sure
- [22:40:57] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4231 * MarkPilgrim * (+64)
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- [22:42:18] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4232 * RyanKing * (-1) Mark Pilgrim - fixed link
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- [22:45:51] <trovster>
I use DLs for my vcards.
- [22:46:42] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:52:37] <pantosys>
that would be fine, but this represents an unordered list of contacts, so <ul><li><dl> would seem appropriate
- [22:54:53] <pantosys>
and then <address><dl class="vcard>... for the author
- [22:56:59] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4233 * MarkRickerby * (+101) added cv
- [23:02:05] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
- [23:02:09] <trovster>
pantosys: What?!
- [23:02:31] <trovster>
ul li dl is definitely over complicating things, imo
- [23:04:07] <pantosys>
otherwise, it would be a page of <dl> elements, this is an address book
- [23:05:18] <trovster>
Depends on the other information
- [23:06:41] <pantosys>
yes, and the <li> elements wouldn't ever contain more than a <dl>
- [23:10:23] <trovster>
I think ul li dl is too over-cooked.
- [23:10:54] <cgriego>
<ul><li class="vcard"> is the approach I've taken
- [23:12:09] <trovster>
Depends. On. Content.
- [23:12:18] <pantosys>
which is more reasonable if you explicitly <span class="type">
- [23:12:46] <trovster>
http://www.approveddesign.co.uk/about/contact/ that's what I've got for a company address + contact details.
- [23:13:27] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: ping
- [23:13:45] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [23:13:57] <factoryjoe>
anyone have opinions about the ping attribute on <a>'s in firefox?
- [23:15:16] <kingryan>
not sure
- [23:15:28] <kingryan>
there's been discussion of that on the whatwg list, too
- [23:16:23] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [23:16:27] <factoryjoe>
i'm blogging about it
- [23:16:41] <factoryjoe>
if i have my way
- [23:16:45] <factoryjoe>
default to off in Flock
- [23:16:52] <factoryjoe>
i'm a luddite anyway
- [23:17:16] <factoryjoe>
prove to me how it improves the end-user experience substantively and maybe i'll reconsider (redirects *should* be visible)
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- [23:18:03] <trovster>
What's this about ping/firefox, I heard it mentioned earlier, but was busy busy busy
- [23:18:23] <Hixie>
it improves the user experience because it (a) shows the user the final page instead of an obfuscated redirect URI, it allows the user to disabled it, it lets the UA tell the user what's actually gonig on, and it makes the final page load faster.
- [23:18:40] <_psychic_>
"The Mozilla Team has quietly enabled a new feature in Firefox that parses 'ping' attributes to anchor tags in HTML. Now links can have a 'ping' attribute that contains a list of servers to notify when you click on a link"
- [23:18:58] <factoryjoe>
_psychic_: welcome to the discussion
- [23:19:10] <factoryjoe>
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/darin/archives/009594.html
- [23:19:10] <_psychic_>
factoryjoe: sry ;)
- [23:19:15] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: you work on that stuff eh?
- [23:19:22] * Hixie invented <a ping>
- [23:19:24] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [23:19:33] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: tell me, what "big companies" want it
- [23:19:54] <Hixie>
i can't answer that due to NDAs
- [23:20:05] <factoryjoe>
can i blog that?
- [23:20:13] <factoryjoe>
(not to be an ass)
- [23:20:16] <Hixie>
i'd rather you didn't mention that i said anything :-)
- [23:20:20] <factoryjoe>
that's fine
- [23:20:24] <pnhChris>
yeah.. i can't say i'm a fan, but its silly to be outraged or upset about it given practices already in the wild
- [23:20:35] <Hixie>
but you can probably make an educated guess looking at who specced the feature, and who implemented the feature
- [23:20:54] <factoryjoe>
well, to me this seems like a way of obfuscating who's tracking your cliktrhus
- [23:20:57] <factoryjoe>
clikthrus
- [23:21:05] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: right
- [23:21:25] <Hixie>
pnhChris: yeah, i don't understand why people are against making what's already possible, more clear
- [23:21:29] <Hixie>
factoryjoe: it doesn't obfuscate
- [23:21:32] <Hixie>
it does the opposite
- [23:21:36] <factoryjoe>
explain
- [23:21:46] <Hixie>
it allows the UA to show exactly what the target page is _and_ which domains will be pinged
- [23:21:51] <factoryjoe>
it takes me directly from point A to point B, invisibly notifying points C, D, E
- [23:21:56] <Hixie>
not invisibly
- [23:22:00] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [23:22:03] <factoryjoe>
is there a mockup somewhere?
- [23:22:11] <factoryjoe>
i imagine this is in the status bar?
- [23:22:46] <kingryan>
factory: download and build it yourself :D
- [23:22:46] <_psychic_>
What does a 'notification' consist of?
- [23:22:46] <Hixie>
the idea is the spec will say "http://www.target.com/ (ping: tracker.yahoo.com tracker.target.com)"
- [23:22:52] <Hixie>
er
- [23:22:54] * pantosys (n=pantosys@adsl-70-234-48-41.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
- [23:22:55] <Hixie>
s/spec/status bar/
- [23:22:58] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: ok
- [23:23:06] <Hixie>
instead of "http://tracker.yahoo.com/?2tc5gh1nt3h5n32t5h2n3t5hn"
- [23:23:09] <Hixie>
which is what is says now
- [23:23:23] <factoryjoe>
i'm against that then
- [23:23:27] <factoryjoe>
but that's just me
- [23:23:35] <factoryjoe>
and i've known to be in the minority before
- [23:23:44] <Hixie>
i don't understand what you are against
- [23:23:54] <factoryjoe>
can you tell me how an individual without a gazillion dollars in the bank benefits from it?
- [23:23:54] <Hixie>
you'd rather have "http://tracker.yahoo.com/?2tc5gh1nt3h5n32t5h2n3t5hn" and a slower page load?
- [23:23:58] <factoryjoe>
i would, yes
- [23:24:06] <Hixie>
....why?
- [23:24:11] <factoryjoe>
so that i'm aware of the many people watching my behavior on the way
- [23:24:18] <Hixie>
you are not aware
- [23:24:19] <factoryjoe>
and that the service is slower because of it
- [23:24:21] <Hixie>
you never see the redirects
- [23:24:32] <Hixie>
indeed, if you use IE, it isn't even slower
- [23:24:40] <Hixie>
since people use JS hacks to do this in the background
- [23:24:46] <Hixie>
(using an IE bug)
- [23:25:10] <Hixie>
how is the status bar explicitly telling you what sites will be pinged not better?
- [23:25:58] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [23:26:11] <factoryjoe>
alright
- [23:26:17] <factoryjoe>
well, i get it now
- [23:26:21] <factoryjoe>
i can blog about it more generally
- [23:26:25] <factoryjoe>
i'm not sure how i feel
- [23:26:32] <factoryjoe>
i don't like the practice in general
- [23:26:35] <factoryjoe>
whether visible or not
- [23:26:40] <factoryjoe>
so that's what i don't like
- [23:26:58] <kingryan>
factoryjoe, you're not going to get rid of the practice
- [23:26:59] <factoryjoe>
daylighting who's watching my clickstream through pings actually only highlights the lack of privacy on the web
- [23:26:59] <kingryan>
evar
- [23:27:04] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: no doubt
- [23:27:10] <factoryjoe>
doesn't mean i like it
- [23:27:16] <kingryan>
you should like it
- [23:27:17] <factoryjoe>
i don't like billboards fucking up the landscape either
- [23:27:18] <Hixie>
this will make it easier for you to disable
- [23:27:20] <factoryjoe>
but it ain't going away
- [23:27:30] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: sort of
- [23:27:36] <factoryjoe>
it seems to make it easier
- [23:27:45] <Hixie>
well, at the moment you can't disable it
- [23:27:47] <Hixie>
with this you can
- [23:27:47] <factoryjoe>
and then they'll default to JS or images anyway
- [23:27:48] <kingryan>
it makes it cleaner
- [23:27:51] <Hixie>
so i'd say it makes it easier :-)
- [23:28:03] <factoryjoe>
easier to disable the explicit implementation
- [23:28:06] <factoryjoe>
not the practice
- [23:28:10] <factoryjoe>
funny
- [23:28:14] <factoryjoe>
it's a little like microformats
- [23:28:21] <factoryjoe>
codifying what the advertisers are doing anyway
- [23:28:26] <factoryjoe>
the *real* cows
- [23:28:27] <kingryan>
yeah
- [23:28:29] <kingryan>
lol
- [23:28:41] <factoryjoe>
ugh, i can't wait to see the hacks though
- [23:28:43] <kingryan>
and, btw, its not just for advertisers
- [23:28:47] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: explain
- [23:29:03] <kingryan>
uh, anyone who wants to track how good their applications is, needs feedback
- [23:29:33] <kingryan>
how do you know if a page of search results are useful to your users if you have no metrics by which to judge them?
- [23:30:35] <factoryjoe>
?
- [23:30:40] <factoryjoe>
why do you need ping to judge that?
- [23:30:49] <kingryan>
I'm defending the practice
- [23:31:13] <factoryjoe>
are you playing devil's massage therapist?
- [23:31:14] <kingryan>
its not neccessary, put <a ping> would be a cleaner solution
- [23:31:32] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: ok, can you describe how you would implement that/
- [23:31:34] <factoryjoe>
?
- [23:31:44] <kingryan>
implement what?
- [23:31:51] <kingryan>
massage therapy for the devil?
- [23:32:35] <kingryan>
that's intractable
- [23:35:58] <factoryjoe>
ugh
- [23:36:09] <factoryjoe>
no, like how would you...
- [23:36:11] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [23:36:13] <factoryjoe>
ok, i get it
- [23:36:32] <kingryan>
you're not familiar with the current techniques?
- [23:36:36] <factoryjoe>
so i could link to "ryan.com" but ping "tracker.com?clicked-ryan's-link"
- [23:36:39] <factoryjoe>
i am
- [23:36:59] <kingryan>
something like that
- [23:38:14] <factoryjoe>
olk
- [23:38:16] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [23:38:23] <factoryjoe>
yeah, intuitively my sense is to vote no
- [23:38:35] <factoryjoe>
because ultimately this feature is about quantifying behavior
- [23:38:45] <kingryan>
so?
- [23:39:13] <factoryjoe>
well, personally i don't dig being "part of a herd" even if i'm actually in one
- [23:39:21] <factoryjoe>
kingryan: got a thing for caddle prods?
- [23:39:30] <kingryan>
nope
- [23:39:35] <Hixie>
i apologise for breaking your illusion of individuality
- [23:39:39] <Hixie>
welcome to the real world :-)
- [23:39:42] <kingryan>
factoryjoe, your behavior will be quantified
- [23:40:07] <kingryan>
bringing things out into the open can make them more manageable
- [23:44:12] <factoryjoe>
yes, i love being "managed"
- [23:44:29] <kingryan>
you're not being manage, just coutned
- [23:44:34] <kingryan>
counted*
- [23:44:39] <kingryan>
and they don't even know its you
- [23:44:53] <kingryan>
Hixie, I assume the ping includes cookies?
- [23:45:22] <Hixie>
yes
- [23:45:37] <kingryan>
ok, so maybe they will know who you are, factoryjoe
- [23:45:45] <kingryan>
but trust me, they don't care about you enough to track you
- [23:45:52] <kingryan>
:D
- [23:46:01] <factoryjoe>
heh, that's what they *want* you to believe
- [23:46:06] <factoryjoe>
well, i'ma blog it anyway
- [23:46:12] <factoryjoe>
and then i'll finish my rant about apple
- [23:46:15] <kingryan>
how do you know that I'm not one of them
- [23:46:23] <factoryjoe>
and then the blogosphere will descend upon me
- [23:46:23] <Hixie>
do you have a credit card, factoryjoe?
- [23:46:28] <factoryjoe>
and you'll never hear from me again
- [23:46:38] <kingryan>
you'd like that, factoryjoe
- [23:46:45] <factoryjoe>
Hixie: no, but a social security number: 423-65-9954
- [23:46:50] <factoryjoe>
does that help?
- [23:46:56] <kingryan>
dude, that's on the internet, now
- [23:47:03] <factoryjoe>
oh sh!t!
- [23:47:07] <kingryan>
the www, to be more precise
- [23:47:13] <kingryan>
lol
- [23:47:30] <Hixie>
if you don't have a credit card you're probably not in as much trouble as you would otherwise be
- [23:47:38] <Hixie>
if you do, then you've basically lost already
- [23:47:59] <factoryjoe>
true true
- [23:48:16] <factoryjoe>
whatever, this makes for good editorial content
- [23:48:33] <kingryan>
you should just go ahead and blog your ssn
- [23:48:57] <_psychic_>
Hixie: does the browser receive any data back when it makes a ping http request?
- [23:49:00] <cgriego>
http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-01-18#T234645
- [23:49:31] <Hixie>
_psychic_: it follows redir-- you know, it would probably be easier if you read the spec
- [23:49:38] <Hixie>
instead of me pasting the spec into here
- [23:49:38] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
- [23:49:39] <Hixie>
:-)
- [23:50:38] <kingryan>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#ping ?
- [23:50:46] <_psychic_>
kingryan: thanks
- [23:54:14] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
- [23:56:23] <factoryjoe>
here you go biatches: http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/88372434/
- [23:59:04] <kingryan>
if you sell those shirts, will you count how many you sell?
- [23:59:11] <factoryjoe>
no
- [23:59:13] <_psychic_>
haha
- [23:59:16] <factoryjoe>
:P
- [23:59:31] <factoryjoe>
but i *will* post all the credit cards used to order the shirts
- [23:59:38] <kingryan>
of course
- [23:59:50] <kingryan>
btw, you should ask robert to remove your ssn from the logs
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