IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:07:01] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:07:01] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  3. [00:23:49] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  5. [00:29:08] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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  7. [01:07:21] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://eswat.ca - http://gmachina.com")
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  13. [02:00:52] <mkaply> BobJonkman: ping
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  16. [02:17:02] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@68-68-183-37.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #microformats
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  19. [02:35:54] <mfbot> [[rel-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12022 * JohnAllsopp * (+96) See Also -
  20. [02:37:58] * veeliam (n=veeliam@pool-71-163-39-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  21. [02:37:58] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
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  26. [03:18:12] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  27. [03:18:12] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  29. [03:34:40] * dean_ero (n=dean@dsl254-024-154.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  31. [04:12:26] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  32. [04:12:26] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
  33. [04:16:37] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav204.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
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  36. [04:35:14] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  37. [04:42:10] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  38. [04:42:10] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  39. [04:42:22] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  40. [04:47:44] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
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  42. [04:53:18] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  43. [04:56:52] * ryanlowe (n=blog@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  44. [04:56:52] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  45. [04:57:41] * dean_ero (n=dean@dsl254-024-154.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  46. [05:15:30] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12023 * Bob Jonkman * (+1807) Difficulty in parsing for include-pattern
  47. [05:17:55] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  48. [05:18:05] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  49. [05:22:19] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit ()
  50. [05:30:16] * Lachy (n=Lachlan@203-206-231-215.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit ("Leaving")
  51. [05:51:17] <mfbot> [[User:Bob Jonkman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Bob_Jonkman * Bob Jonkman * (+593) Bob Jonkman's hcard
  52. [06:09:15] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  53. [06:21:16] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  54. [06:21:16] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  55. [07:22:22] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  56. [07:22:23] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  57. [07:29:23] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  58. [07:30:41] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
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  61. [08:01:49] * iand (n=iand@213.205.218.158) has joined #microformats
  62. [08:01:49] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  63. [08:02:38] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  64. [08:02:39] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  65. [08:13:35] * dean_ero (n=dean@dsl254-024-154.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  66. [08:23:26] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has left #microformats
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  68. [08:47:58] * stuup (n=stuup@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) has joined #microformats
  69. [08:48:32] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  70. [08:48:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  71. [08:48:32] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  72. [09:00:20] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  73. [09:00:20] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  74. [09:09:15] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  75. [09:12:02] * iand (n=iand@213.205.228.199) has joined #microformats
  76. [09:12:02] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  77. [09:16:56] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  78. [09:21:44] * iand (n=iand@213.205.228.199) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  79. [09:33:26] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  80. [09:33:26] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  81. [09:38:31] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) has joined #microformats
  82. [09:38:31] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  86. [09:45:34] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  87. [10:13:20] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) has joined #microformats
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  89. [10:52:05] <mfbot> [[rel-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12024 * AndyMabbett * (-27) See Also - fmt
  90. [10:54:52] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  91. [10:56:36] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12025 * MarkJaroski * (+181) add WikEvent
  92. [10:57:02] <mfbot> [[rel-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=12026 * AndyMabbett * (+25) rel-design-pattern
  93. [10:57:48] <mfbot> [[rel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel&diff=0&oldid=12027 * AndyMabbett * (-17) redirect to rel-faq
  94. [10:58:58] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  95. [10:58:59] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  96. [11:01:15] <mfbot> [[rel-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=12028 * AndyMabbett * (+126) What microformats use "rel"?
  97. [11:04:01] <mfbot> [[rev]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rev * AndyMabbett * (+21) redirect to rel-faq
  98. [11:05:39] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12029 * AndyMabbett * (+66) Bob Jonkman's hCard
  99. [11:09:05] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12030 * AndyMabbett * (+108) Parsing for include-pattern - prettify
  100. [11:09:46] * Ronnos_ (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
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  103. [11:11:31] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12031 * AndyMabbett * (+12)
  104. [11:12:47] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12032 * AndyMabbett * (+8) fix link
  105. [11:13:33] <mfbot> [[hResume]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hResume * AndyMabbett * (+21) redirect
  106. [11:14:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12033 * AndyMabbett * (+12) link
  107. [11:21:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12034 * AndyMabbett * (+4) move 'Natural England' to problem section
  108. [11:23:04] * charlie_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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  112. [12:22:04] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12035 * AndyMabbett * (+12) several copy edits, typos, spelling, etc.
  113. [12:25:32] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) Quit ()
  114. [12:27:50] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12036 * AndyMabbett * (+37) Web Services - life lint offline for over 1 week, so comemnted out
  115. [12:29:46] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12037 * AndyMabbett * (+7) Conversion and Import - fmt
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  121. [12:34:24] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12038 * AndyMabbett * (+50) clarify fiction
  122. [12:42:20] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12039 * AndyMabbett * (+37) Use <code>cell</code> for mobiles
  123. [12:43:40] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) has joined #microformats
  124. [12:53:42] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12040 * AndyMabbett * (-99) rm duplicate links
  125. [13:11:53] <mfbot> [[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=12041 * SteveIvy * (+36) Implementations -
  126. [13:42:30] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@M2445P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
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  128. [13:45:54] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  129. [13:46:43] * errordeveloper (n=errordev@87-194-62-89.bethere.co.uk) has left #MICROFORMATS
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  134. [14:13:46] <mfbot> [[rel-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12042 * SteveIvy * (+67) See Also -
  135. [14:15:53] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  136. [14:15:53] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  137. [14:16:21] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.169-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  138. [14:16:21] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  139. [14:17:33] * monkinetic (n=steve@nat-64-202-160-65.ip.secureserver.net) has joined #microformats
  140. [14:17:34] <jibot> monkinetic is redmonk/Steve Ivy and can be found at http://redmonk.net
  141. [14:23:41] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-11-167.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  142. [14:23:41] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  143. [14:25:54] <mfbot> [[Talk:rel-design-pattern]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:rel-design-pattern * SteveIvy * (+303) discuss rev attribute
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  146. [14:36:27] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  147. [15:08:36] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
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  149. [15:16:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  150. [15:16:08] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  151. [15:17:38] * jonthn1 (n=jonthn@dedicated.anhur.net) has joined #microformats
  152. [15:19:20] <briansuda> An interview with Brian Suda of "Using Microformats" (http://www.marylandmedia.com/2007/01/interview-with-brian-suda-of-using.html) pretty well done
  153. [15:25:43] * JonTHn (n=jonthn@dedicated.anhur.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  154. [15:42:17] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #Microformats
  155. [15:42:17] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  156. [15:42:35] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has left #Microformats
  157. [15:44:12] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-585b93a8a2b705f0) has joined #microformats
  158. [15:50:46] <JMulder> briansuda, very well done indeed. I like how it reads as an actual in-person proper interview, instead of the boring fixed question probably sent by e-mail format that's so common these days.
  159. [15:51:42] <briansuda> thanks JMulder - i was worried i wrote too much in each answer
  160. [15:53:19] <monkinetic> briansuda: i thought it was well done as well, though I'm interested to know what "designed for humans first" means in the first bit you quoted.
  161. [15:53:23] <JMulder> Nah. Personally I like suck longer answers and I think they'll only be a good thing for people who are unfamiliar with the concept of Microformats. Especially seasoned developers will probably have 100 questions popping up in their head when they read articles or interviews.
  162. [15:53:29] <monkinetic> (i know that's from mf.org)
  163. [15:54:54] <monkinetic> i mean, i'm pretty familiar with the whole microformats thing, but i had not seen that quote before and I find it interesting, as (so far at least) users still need software to discover/parse the data
  164. [15:55:26] <briansuda> i hope it helps others to learn something and/or excite them
  165. [15:55:28] <JMulder> Interview dugg, btw.
  166. [15:57:48] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-11-167.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  167. [15:58:55] <JMulder> monkinetic, the way I understand it is that it is the publishers that will likely need to continiously use the formats. If you make it easy for them to remember and use it, they'll be more likely to use it elsewhere and spread the word. Software authors only need to follow the specs, no matter how easy the format is. Correct me if I am wrong >_>
  168. [15:59:29] <monkinetic> so are the "humans" in question the publishers?
  169. [15:59:42] <monkinetic> rather than the readers/consumers?
  170. [16:00:16] <JMulder> That's the way I understand it, yes.
  171. [16:01:06] <briansuda> yes, we want to make it as easy to publish as possible
  172. [16:01:23] <JMulder> If done right, a reader/consumer shouldn't be aware of the underlying format, I would think?
  173. [16:01:26] <briansuda> there will be MILLIONS of publishers, but very few folks who write the parsers
  174. [16:01:27] <monkinetic> sure
  175. [16:01:56] <monkinetic> well, and evern fewer who write the generators
  176. [16:02:22] <monkinetic> (meaning the publishing software/groupware - wordpress/blogger/drupal/etc)
  177. [16:02:26] <JMulder> And ultimately, the publishers shouldn't need to be aware of the underlying format either? :p
  178. [16:02:54] <monkinetic> is there a section on mf.org focused on evangelizing to the platform vendors?
  179. [16:03:03] <monkinetic> JMulder: right
  180. [16:03:52] <briansuda> there is an evangelization section on the wiki, i think it is advocacy
  181. [16:04:30] <JMulder> I know a friend build a quick but useful JS interface to generate a hCard in his blog's body text.
  182. [16:06:21] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  183. [16:06:21] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  184. [16:18:01] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=12043 * SteveIvy * (+485) Adding Microformats to Applications - Added section for publishing platforms, minor typo fixes
  185. [16:22:59] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  186. [16:22:59] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  187. [16:30:32] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  188. [16:30:32] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  189. [16:43:21] * JMulder_ (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) has joined #microformats
  190. [16:44:22] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  191. [16:50:54] <mkaply> Anyone want to try out the new version of Operator before I release it to the world today?
  192. [16:51:12] * monkinetic waves
  193. [16:51:51] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator.xpi
  194. [16:51:59] <mkaply> It's marked 0.5.5 but it will be changed to 0.6 when I release
  195. [16:52:15] <monkinetic> sweet
  196. [16:52:28] <mkaply> Performance should be way improved
  197. [16:55:28] <tantek> hey mkaply - saw your feedback about object include-pattern
  198. [16:55:49] <tantek> i'm not sure you understood how the include-pattern is supposed to be processed
  199. [16:56:00] <tantek> you don't check it per property
  200. [16:56:09] <mkaply> tantek: actually, I did figure it out finally
  201. [16:56:10] <tantek> you simply perform all the inclusions *first*
  202. [16:56:12] <tantek> oh
  203. [16:56:37] <mkaply> tantek: What I do in code is I go through every object and I clone the corresponding node and insert it into the vcard with the object
  204. [16:56:53] <mkaply> as in replace the object with the cloned node - was that moer the intent?
  205. [16:56:56] <tantek> that's right
  206. [16:57:13] <tantek> then it looks like this is out of date: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Parsing_for_include-pattern
  207. [16:57:33] <tantek> could you edit that accordingly?
  208. [16:58:06] <mkaply> Yeah. I did find one issue that was kind of ugly to solve though.
  209. [16:58:23] <mkaply> So the first thing I do before I parse any microformat is get what I call the "display name" which will show up on the menu
  210. [16:58:37] <mkaply> for most microformats, this is kind of obvious - fn for an hcard, summary for an hcalendar, etc.
  211. [16:58:58] <tantek> yes
  212. [16:59:18] <mkaply> The object syntax makes this tricky in an hcard. What I'm doing now is when I don't find the fn, I actually have to instantiate the entire hcard in order to get the fn
  213. [16:59:41] <mkaply> or I can kind of hackily look for objects in the vcard and check their corresponding nodes in the dom to see if they have an fn
  214. [17:00:01] * mkaply realizes he didn't completely finish object last night for today's release
  215. [17:00:07] <briansuda> mkaply, you should email the dev-list because there are still outstanding issues about how to actually do the include-pattern
  216. [17:00:49] <mkaply> you guys are going to totally suck me into this microformats thing aren't you - it was just supposed to be a side project :)
  217. [17:01:30] <tantek> mkaply - the dev list is very low traffic and very high signal-to-noise
  218. [17:01:39] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  219. [17:01:39] * JMulder_ is now known as JMulder
  220. [17:03:43] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  221. [17:03:57] <mkaply> Should I be totally strict about only allowing definied phone types in the tel list? Like Bob Jonkman's resume uses Cel as a type
  222. [17:04:17] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12044 * Tantek * (+216) parsing for include pattern issue obsolete
  223. [17:04:24] <mkaply> MY list currently is {'voice':true, 'home':true, 'msg':true, 'work':true, 'pref':true, 'fax':true, 'cell':true, 'video':true, 'pager':true, 'bbs':true, 'modem':true, 'car':true, 'isdn':true, 'pcs':true},
  224. [17:04:39] <tantek> mkaply, yes you should be strict about it
  225. [17:05:30] <tantek> and note in hcard-examples-in-wild for Bob Jonkman's hCard the problem
  226. [17:06:42] <briansuda> yeah, X2V will not find any value for something like "mobile", it just passes it through because it MIGHT be just a CSS style?
  227. [17:08:01] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
  228. [17:08:08] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12045 * MikeKaply * (+438) Parsing for include-pattern -
  229. [17:08:11] <tantek> tel type: VOICE, home, msg, work, pref, fax, cell, video, pager, bbs, modem, car, isdn, pcs
  230. [17:08:38] <mkaply> I still love car
  231. [17:11:07] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  232. [17:13:12] * stuup (n=stuup@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) Quit ()
  233. [17:14:31] <tantek> mkaply: http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/tags/carphone/ - maybe I should link "car" to that
  234. [17:16:16] <tantek> i'll use the generic carcellphone tag instead
  235. [17:16:34] <briansuda> i personally like BBS
  236. [17:16:59] <pnhChris> where's "bat"?
  237. [17:17:01] <tantek> there are probably still modem lines running BBS's
  238. [17:17:18] <briansuda> also, alot of people complain/request more TYPES for email - so be sure the list of types is pretty much only PREF and INTERNET
  239. [17:17:46] <briansuda> TEL:TYPE:Red,Bat:1234567890
  240. [17:19:02] <pnhChris> missing shoe as well
  241. [17:21:08] * Tyler (n=tyler@unaffiliated/tyler) has joined #microformats
  242. [17:21:14] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=12046 * AndyMabbett * (-165) Publishing Platforms - rm. Wordpress - that's an implementation, not a case for advcay (& tweak link text)
  243. [17:21:15] <Tyler> Hi folks!
  244. [17:21:27] <monkinetic> where can one get LAT/LONG for a location for geo?
  245. [17:21:34] <monkinetic> i don't see anything from yahoo or google
  246. [17:22:08] <monkinetic> ah, i found it in yahoo's url
  247. [17:22:12] <Tyler> How's everyone doing today?
  248. [17:22:40] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12047 * Tantek * (+46) link tel type "car" to example photos to show example
  249. [17:24:19] <mkaply> I want types for URL
  250. [17:24:57] <tantek> mkaply - the 'type' attribute on <a href> already provides for that
  251. [17:25:09] <tantek> and if you want to "tag" a URL, then use xfolk
  252. [17:25:46] <mkaply> I was more thinking the difference between a personal and business URL -
  253. [17:26:16] <mkaply> yahoo contacts supports adding multiple URLs, but in an hcard, I see know way to know which is business and which is personal
  254. [17:27:30] <mkaply> briansuda: I have a report that my exported contacts don't work in outlook 2003, but they work for me in 2007 - do you know of anything I should be aware of ?
  255. [17:28:12] <briansuda> well, what "doesn't work"? it might be an issue with multiple URLs or encoding? do you have a URL or what was expected?
  256. [17:34:20] <mkaply> just an email from frances berriman. I'll see if it is a particular page/hcard
  257. [17:34:55] <mkaply> briansuda: wasn't there a comment a long time ago in your original transform that mentioned UID being required?
  258. [17:35:02] <briansuda> i don't have outlook. but we can see if we can't figure it out
  259. [17:35:22] <briansuda> Ah, are we talking hCal or hCard?
  260. [17:35:26] <mkaply> I can get any outlook we need (MSDN sub) - I just didn't want to install them all :) - But i will if I need to
  261. [17:35:28] <mkaply> hcard
  262. [17:35:51] <briansuda> i know UID and DTSTART are required for hCal
  263. [17:36:01] <briansuda> not sure about hCard....
  264. [17:36:08] <mkaply> ok.
  265. [17:36:32] <briansuda> either way, as we figure it out, we should document it on the wiki (we have a page started)
  266. [17:38:49] <Tyler> I work for a medium-sized consulting company and our clients are primarily enterprise-level. I'm wondering if there have been any case studies done with enterprise content management systems integrating Microformats. I'm very much interested in putting together a couple presentations for my company with regards to Microformats.
  267. [17:39:27] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  268. [17:39:52] <briansuda> i would guess that Yahoo has a pretty big enterprise system, but i don't know if it is a custom system or something they built or something they bought and customized
  269. [17:40:40] <Tyler> Yeah, that's what I've been wondering as well.
  270. [17:41:20] <monkinetic> hcard question: this is a super-basic example, but is this a correct way to markup an org? http://pastebin.com/850331
  271. [17:41:20] <Tyler> My biggest hurdle is that we almost exclusively use MS tools/solutions.
  272. [17:41:30] <briansuda> it might also be all template based, so they just edit the custom template but the backend is standard
  273. [17:41:39] * Tyler nods.
  274. [17:42:13] <Tyler> I'd be interested to see if there was a way to integrate Microformats with MOSS07.
  275. [17:42:21] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  276. [17:43:28] <briansuda> monkinetic, you need to do one of two things....
  277. [17:43:33] <briansuda> you can remove organization-name
  278. [17:43:48] <briansuda> or make it on a child-node inside the org
  279. [17:44:05] <briansuda> <span class="org"><span class="organization-name"></span></span>
  280. [17:44:32] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  281. [17:44:37] <monkinetic> <a href="http://godaddy.com" class="url org"><span class="organization-name">Go Daddy</span></a> ?
  282. [17:45:00] <briansuda> that would work
  283. [17:45:05] <briansuda> but the organization-name is not needed
  284. [17:45:10] <briansuda> (in this case)
  285. [17:45:21] <monkinetic> cool, thanks. FINALLY getting my about page cleaned up with a proper hcard
  286. [17:45:26] <monkinetic> ah ok
  287. [17:45:29] <briansuda> FN is also required, that should be on the same element as FN
  288. [17:45:43] <briansuda> unless the FN is for you
  289. [17:46:29] <monkinetic> one sec
  290. [17:46:52] <monkinetic> this is the whole hcard: http://pastebin.com/850333
  291. [17:47:30] * briansuda is looking
  292. [17:50:15] <briansuda> ok, i think you have a few extra class="url"s you can keep them or not...
  293. [17:50:47] <briansuda> things like the class='url" on the ORG and the yahoo maps will be pulled in as part of the Steve Ivy vcard
  294. [17:51:08] <briansuda> you might want to associate them with you, or not?
  295. [17:51:30] <monkinetic> well, yeah, i thought that was the idea. hence the rel=me
  296. [17:51:39] <monkinetic> oh, except the org
  297. [17:52:30] <briansuda> right, but also the yahoo map GEO you MIGHT want that URL in your profile, but it is up to you
  298. [17:52:42] <monkinetic> hm.
  299. [17:52:59] * monkinetic goes to check out the whole shebang in Operator
  300. [17:54:49] <monkinetic> ok, thanks brian
  301. [17:55:25] <Tyler> briansuda: I love this cheat sheet you've put together.
  302. [17:55:39] <Tyler> What's the usage rights on this? I'd like to use this in a presentation to my team.
  303. [17:56:53] <briansuda> it is Creative Commons, share-alike-attribution, so feel free to use it
  304. [17:57:31] <Tyler> Excellent, thanks!
  305. [17:57:40] <Tyler> I need to read up on CC.
  306. [17:59:11] <briansuda> if you are just using it in a presentation, that i'd count that as fair-use as long as you aren't making money from the presentation
  307. [17:59:21] <briansuda> it is just a citing of some work
  308. [17:59:26] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  309. [17:59:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  310. [17:59:26] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  311. [18:00:16] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  312. [18:00:40] <AdamCraven> quick question, why does hcard use span class="adr" over <address>?
  313. [18:01:28] <briansuda> the address element is not the semantics you think it is
  314. [18:01:43] <briansuda> address is used for the contact information of the page author
  315. [18:01:47] <briansuda> not a postal address
  316. [18:01:54] <briansuda> therefore, it is not used in hCard
  317. [18:02:55] <AdamCraven> thanks briansuda, it's been bugging me that one
  318. [18:03:28] <briansuda> not a prob, if you just search for it on the w3c page it explains it more
  319. [18:04:29] <AdamCraven> w3c specs?
  320. [18:06:08] <briansuda> yeah, http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6
  321. [18:07:42] <tantek> AdamCraven - see also the hcard-faq - this is an often asked question
  322. [18:07:44] <AdamCraven> hmm, it doesn't actually say much there
  323. [18:08:06] <AdamCraven> question number one
  324. [18:08:47] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq
  325. [18:08:52] <tantek> one and two
  326. [18:09:30] <tantek> it says precisely why
  327. [18:09:32] <tantek> no need to say anything else
  328. [18:10:13] <AdamCraven> perfectly, thanks
  329. [18:11:32] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  330. [18:13:21] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  331. [18:18:37] <Tyler> briansuda: Is there a larger version of that cheatsheet? Perhaps legal or tabloid sized?
  332. [18:18:37] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  333. [18:19:01] <Tyler> I'd love to get a larger one printed out for my office.
  334. [18:19:05] <briansuda> at the moment no... it is from a page on the wiki.
  335. [18:19:11] <Tyler> Ah okay
  336. [18:19:13] <briansuda> and/or you can just "print to fit"
  337. [18:19:21] <Tyler> True true. :)
  338. [18:20:33] <Tyler> This is some great stuff that could prove to be very useful in an enterprise environment.
  339. [18:21:24] <Tyler> Hmm... it looks like the PDF isn't wanting to download again, bah!
  340. [18:21:25] <briansuda> if you have any suggestions, feel free to email me
  341. [18:21:34] <Tyler> Great!
  342. [18:21:37] <Tyler> Will do.
  343. [18:22:08] <Tyler> Actually it looks like all of http://suda.co.uk isn't loading.
  344. [18:22:11] * bewes1 (n=ben@209.237.236.227) has joined #microformats
  345. [18:22:12] <Tyler> Might be on my end though.
  346. [18:22:29] <Tyler> We're ditching our service provider for a fatter pipe later this month.
  347. [18:22:33] <briansuda> WFM (works for me)
  348. [18:22:59] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  349. [18:23:11] <Tyler> Yeah, it's our lovely server then.
  350. [18:23:25] <Tyler> Ah there we go.
  351. [18:23:41] <briansuda> you can always use google cache
  352. [18:28:15] <Tyler> Looks like it scaled beautifully to 11x17 :)
  353. [18:29:55] <yakk> I just realized I can apply a class="hreview" to any element!
  354. [18:33:11] <Tyler> briansuda: I'm tempted to get your Short Cuts book today. :)
  355. [18:33:43] <briansuda> if you do, let me know what you think - it is a good resource for new folks
  356. [18:34:16] <Tyler> Cool, I'm basically new to MF but I definitely see the huge potentials it has.
  357. [18:34:22] <Tyler> I'll be back in a bit.
  358. [18:34:27] * Tyler is away:
  359. [18:41:20] <mfbot> [[firefox-extensions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=firefox-extensions&diff=0&oldid=12048 * AndyMabbett * (-124) Operator - geo bug fixed - thank you.
  360. [18:41:23] * charlie_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  361. [18:42:25] * remi (i=remi@c75.152.27-239.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  362. [18:42:25] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  363. [18:43:51] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12049 * AndyMabbett * (+66) Property List - FAQ: why adr?
  364. [18:44:17] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12050 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Property List - "
  365. [18:44:38] * Tyler is away:
  366. [18:44:53] <Tyler> Righto, back.
  367. [18:45:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12051 * AndyMabbett * (+65) Properties (Class Names) - faq: why adr?
  368. [18:45:27] <tantek> I don't think a couple of queries about why 'adr' are worth polluting the list of properties in the spec with a specific FAQ link.
  369. [18:45:31] <tantek> I'm going to revert that change.
  370. [18:45:39] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12052 * Tantek * (-68) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  371. [18:46:30] <mfbot> [[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=12053 * AndyMabbett * (+51) FAQ: why adr?
  372. [18:47:04] <tantek> now that reference seems more topical, and introductory so that makes more sense
  373. [18:47:47] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  374. [18:48:57] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  375. [18:50:42] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12054 * AndyMabbett * (+68) no reason gvien for previous revert
  376. [18:50:42] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  377. [18:51:06] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Client Quit)
  378. [18:51:43] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  379. [18:53:23] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12055 * Tantek * (-68) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  380. [18:53:34] <tantek> reason given in IRC - no need to pollute the property list with extra links/info like that
  381. [18:54:29] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12056 * Tantek * (-2) please do not undo editor reverts without contacting an editor
  382. [18:56:13] <tantek> and "no reason given for a revert" is insufficient reason to redo the edit
  383. [18:57:10] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=12057 * SteveIvy * (+172) WordPress - add VoteBack plugin implementation
  384. [18:57:46] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12058 * AndyMabbett * (+70) STILL no reason given for previous revert
  385. [18:57:47] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  386. [18:57:47] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  387. [18:58:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  388. [18:58:25] <JMulder> Phae :)
  389. [18:58:32] <Phae> hey JM
  390. [18:58:51] <Tyler> Hi there.
  391. [18:59:09] <Phae> Tyler :)
  392. [18:59:58] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  393. [19:00:02] <Tyler> How's the day going? I'm new around these parts. :)
  394. [19:01:23] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  395. [19:01:26] <Phae> I just got home from work, so I'm not quite caught up.
  396. [19:01:44] <Phae> It's usually quiet in here though, but you can usually find someone to poke if you've got a query or something.
  397. [19:03:31] <Tyler> Ah nice. I'm interested in promoting MF in my workplace. We're a medium-sized consulting company mostly working with MS solutions (yuck!), but I want to slowly start introducing people to open standards and integrating semantics into production.
  398. [19:03:41] * Phae nods.
  399. [19:03:42] <Phae> Sounds good.
  400. [19:04:11] <Tyler> I'm a FOSS enthusiest myself, trapped in a proprietary world. ;)
  401. [19:04:23] <Phae> A good way to start showing it would just be to start implementing it in some small areas maybe, and just kinda showing it off a little and noting that it's very easy and quick to do
  402. [19:04:33] <Phae> yeah
  403. [19:05:04] <Tyler> Definitely. I've already got Brian's cheatsheet printed out and I'll be hosting a brownbag talk next month.
  404. [19:05:15] <Phae> :)
  405. [19:05:37] * briansuda is here if you need anything
  406. [19:05:45] <Phae> like tea made. etc.
  407. [19:05:51] <Tyler> Hah!
  408. [19:06:01] <Phae> Talking of. I need to update the sheet stuck to my computer at work.
  409. [19:06:10] * daggi (n=chrisada@80-193-38-68.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  410. [19:06:39] <bewes1> Tyler: patient advocacy :-)
  411. [19:06:47] * briansuda can only make digital coffee
  412. [19:07:05] <Tyler> bewes1: Especially in my workplace. ;)
  413. [19:07:09] <bewes1> ah brownbag is nice
  414. [19:07:20] <Tyler> Our division lives and dies by MS.
  415. [19:07:31] <Tyler> (Enterprise Content Management)
  416. [19:07:40] <Phae> The company I work for is also an MS house.
  417. [19:07:46] <Phae> So our web apps are .NET
  418. [19:08:17] <tantek> you can use microformats with MS tools
  419. [19:08:29] <bewes1> that's cool, MS has been advocating MF, so there is no credibility issue there
  420. [19:08:45] <Phae> Yeah
  421. [19:09:16] <Tyler> Exactly. I'm rather excited about it.
  422. [19:09:32] <Tyler> I'm going to try and see if we can (eventually) integrate MF into MOSS07.
  423. [19:10:23] <Tyler> Our company had/has a very large impact on what went/goes into that software. I'd love to see some plug-in or integration of sorts.
  424. [19:11:23] <AdamCraven> hProduct, anyone interested in helping with that?
  425. [19:11:57] <Tyler> What's it about AdamCraven?
  426. [19:12:32] <AdamCraven> I think it's going to be one of the biggest microformats
  427. [19:12:36] <AdamCraven> http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct
  428. [19:12:43] <Tyler> Phae: I'd eventually like to move on to more open source endeavors, but as a rather recent college grad, I need to secure a bit of financial independence before doing anything too drastic. :)
  429. [19:13:03] <Phae> Sure. That makes sense.
  430. [19:13:40] <Tyler> That sounds rather interesting AdamCraven. What sort of help would you be looking for?
  431. [19:14:26] <AdamCraven> Well I'd like to work with a few like minded individuals to really get it going and define a base for it
  432. [19:14:52] <AdamCraven> so far there's some stuff tehre
  433. [19:14:56] <bewes1> AdamCraven: what's the use case?
  434. [19:15:00] <tantek> AdamCraven - has there been enough research done per the process?
  435. [19:15:00] <AdamCraven> but not much action
  436. [19:15:07] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=12059 * SteveIvy * (+83) Companies / Developers / Organizations -
  437. [19:15:26] <AdamCraven> The initial research was done by others, but it's for use with any type of products
  438. [19:15:34] <AdamCraven> perhaps services as well
  439. [19:15:50] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  440. [19:16:02] <AdamCraven> there was conflict about it being a bit similar to hListing
  441. [19:16:04] <bewes1> AdamCraven: have you been following the mailing list discussions that are relevant?
  442. [19:16:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  443. [19:16:25] <bewes1> AdamCraven: eg Mike Schinkel was complaining about getting product information from third party vendors
  444. [19:16:45] <AdamCraven> but it's really a different thing. Yes and no. I've been getting the emails but recently there's so much coming through I haven't read jack
  445. [19:17:05] <AdamCraven> 3rd party vendors? I can't see initially why that's a problem
  446. [19:17:06] <bewes1> I doubt you are alone
  447. [19:17:27] <Tyler> Hi there KevinMarks.
  448. [19:17:28] <AdamCraven> If you have a product to sell, you can mark it up
  449. [19:17:38] <AdamCraven> and bingo, it's ready in a machine friendly format
  450. [19:18:14] <bewes1> AdamCraven: you are putting the cart in front of the horse :-)
  451. [19:18:15] <AdamCraven> nothing too complicated. Name, Price(+shipping), description, but obviously things are more complicated than initial ideas
  452. [19:18:40] <tantek> AdamCraven - unless those initial ideas are based on research, they are a priori and not fit for a microformat
  453. [19:18:41] <Tyler> bewes1: Don't you mean the hCart? :p
  454. [19:18:48] <bewes1> no
  455. [19:18:57] <Phae> I've spent all day working on a product CD for a large company. They're very fussy about how their product ranges are displayed. It's part of their branding to them. I wonder how they would take to having to change that.
  456. [19:18:58] <tantek> that list of fields must come from analysis of implied schema of examples
  457. [19:19:04] <bewes1> AdamCraven: yeah, I'd encourage you to back up a little bit
  458. [19:19:06] <Phae> Not that I'm saying they shouldn't, ofc.
  459. [19:19:14] <bewes1> AdamCraven: find out what problems are actually ocurring in the wild
  460. [19:19:15] <tantek> unless that thorough research and analysis is done, then no microformat
  461. [19:19:25] <bewes1> AdamCraven: postpone brainstorming and ideation until after you collect evidence
  462. [19:19:34] <tantek> and yes, as bewest says, define the problem you are trying to solve first
  463. [19:19:57] <bewes1> as a tip, Mike Schinkel had a few complaints, I was trying to get more information from him
  464. [19:20:09] <Tyler> Phae: What are your thoughts on changing it?
  465. [19:20:09] <AdamCraven> This is obviously a place for talk, but going through the right process is important naturally
  466. [19:20:39] <Phae> I'm not saying I would necessarily change it. It's just worth noting that there are conventions that people use already and I wondered if many had been documented yet.
  467. [19:20:44] <AdamCraven> We all know to some degree how products are represnted on the web. It's common sense in many cases.
  468. [19:21:15] <bewes1> AdamCraven: I want to encourage your efforts, but watch out for assumptions like that
  469. [19:21:47] <bewes1> they can be deceiving
  470. [19:21:52] <AdamCraven> specifically which assumptions?
  471. [19:22:17] <AdamCraven> about how products are represented?
  472. [19:22:25] <bewes1> "we know how products are represented", "it's common sense", and implicitly: "people commonly follow common sense when authoring markup"
  473. [19:22:30] <Tyler> Ah yeah Phae, I'm constantly finding processes and conventions that never get written down. One of our biggest hurdles with enterprise content management is uniformity, so everyone knows how to do a certain process a certain way, so that if an issue arises, everyone can help address it.
  474. [19:22:54] <Phae> That's the ticket, Tyler. Finding and documenting a good range of examples is a really valid and important step, imho.
  475. [19:23:09] <Phae> And real ones. Not made up theoretical ones.
  476. [19:23:13] <AdamCraven> I wasn't referring to mark-up. More of you can recognise a shop when you see one
  477. [19:23:55] <Tyler> Exactly. It's like writing up personas for user experience researching. You have to actually talk to people who will be using your site to find out what they really do/want, instead of just fabricating a type of user.
  478. [19:24:05] <Phae> :D
  479. [19:24:05] <Phae> yeah
  480. [19:24:19] <bewes1> if that's true, a good starting point would be to document all the ways shops are commonly marked up
  481. [19:24:43] <bewes1> the process always starts with documenting what is present... we try not to skip ahead by believing that we generally know how it's done
  482. [19:25:00] <AdamCraven> http://www.mail-archive.com/microformats-discuss@microformats.org/msg03311.html
  483. [19:25:09] <Tyler> I have a hard time dealing with our clients who simply want something done the way they envision it, because 90% of the time, it ends up being a horribly unaccessible and as important, unaesthetic experience.
  484. [19:25:22] <AdamCraven> Yes, I did a few. Obviously not exhaustive
  485. [19:25:40] <AdamCraven> and blimey, I've never seen this web interface for the mailing list
  486. [19:25:47] <Phae> heh
  487. [19:25:49] <bewes1> AdamCraven: I think you will find lots of interest and support for this effort
  488. [19:25:50] <AdamCraven> that's much nicer
  489. [19:25:51] <Phae> it's pretty, huh?
  490. [19:25:54] <tantek> AdamCraven, mailing list is not appropriate for research reference. Please start "product-examples" page for example, based on "examples" page. on the wiki.
  491. [19:26:10] <bewes1> AdamCraven: but we'll be challenging you to stick to the process
  492. [19:26:16] <AdamCraven> noooooooo. Don't wrap me up in red tape yet!
  493. [19:26:19] <bewes1> :-)
  494. [19:26:20] <Phae> heh
  495. [19:26:21] <bewes1> it's not red tape
  496. [19:26:26] <Phae> It's not red tape. It just stops anyone wasting their time.
  497. [19:26:28] <bewes1> it's how we get things done
  498. [19:26:30] <tantek> AdamCraven - it's a filter for all the random format ideas that come across
  499. [19:26:32] <Tyler> Best practices.
  500. [19:26:40] <tantek> it's also how you actually figure out what fields you NEED
  501. [19:26:44] <tantek> vs. what you *think* you NEED
  502. [19:26:50] <bewes1> exactly, tantek
  503. [19:26:56] <AdamCraven> great! Well I know this will be a good one. And yes, need is the key
  504. [19:26:56] <tantek> and how to name them the most compatibly with existing efforts
  505. [19:26:58] <Phae> Anyway. This is too many cooks and I'm starving. brb.
  506. [19:27:01] <bewes1> so for, example, the -discussion page there raises a lot of red flags for me
  507. [19:27:08] <Tyler> Righto Phae.
  508. [19:27:08] <tantek> the process is there to build a better format
  509. [19:27:25] <bewes1> because most of the content on that page is people saying what they believe/predict how things should be
  510. [19:27:32] <bewes1> without the documentation of what already exists
  511. [19:27:53] <bewes1> AdamCraven: does that make sense?
  512. [19:28:11] <AdamCraven> yes it does. I believe with this one it will be quite easy the process
  513. [19:28:18] <AdamCraven> because there are so many examples
  514. [19:28:27] <AdamCraven> and shit, I'm liking the web interface
  515. [19:28:32] <AdamCraven> for the mail archive
  516. [19:29:04] <bewes1> also, don't just focus on the fields being presented
  517. [19:29:11] <bewes1> capturing the mark up is also very useful
  518. [19:29:18] <AdamCraven> what do you mean by that?
  519. [19:29:27] <bewes1> I'm looking at the hproduct-examples page
  520. [19:29:43] <bewes1> the documentation there captures which fields are represented
  521. [19:29:49] <AdamCraven> ah yes
  522. [19:29:52] <bewes1> but now how they are represented (the markup)
  523. [19:29:56] <AdamCraven> it doesn't include any mark-up ideas
  524. [19:29:57] <bewes1> * not how
  525. [19:30:01] <bewes1> we aren't capturing ideas
  526. [19:30:06] <bewes1> we are just capturing what already exists
  527. [19:30:08] <AdamCraven> indeed
  528. [19:30:08] <bewes1> :-)
  529. [19:30:40] <AdamCraven> It's ok to have extra mark-up fields that won't be used all the time?.. for example.
  530. [19:30:56] <bewes1> AdamCraven: anyway, I'm pretty excited about this
  531. [19:31:27] <bewes1> make sure you capture real problems that people are having, because unless we are solving a real problem with a real use case, the format isn't worth much
  532. [19:31:34] <AdamCraven> On the web there's some sites that list prices & shipping (ebay).
  533. [19:31:44] <bewes1> I might be able to reach out to amazon and see what problems they might have
  534. [19:32:12] <bewes1> AdamCraven: it's impossible to tell until after we collect a sufficiently large number of examples, right?
  535. [19:32:15] <tantek> hmm... just noticed that the pages didn't use a generic name
  536. [19:32:18] <AdamCraven> The price can be much marked up by the shipping costs. So it creates a problem if you don't include it
  537. [19:32:31] <tantek> no double negative reasoning please
  538. [19:32:37] <AdamCraven> but not all products have shipping prices
  539. [19:32:49] <tantek> if we don't do x, there will be a problem
  540. [19:32:59] <tantek> that's not valid reasoning
  541. [19:33:05] <AdamCraven> so in some cases you can have additional mark-up that won't be used?
  542. [19:33:10] <tantek> every property must be justified on its own accord for what it solves
  543. [19:33:18] <tantek> rather than what the lack of it causes
  544. [19:33:31] * tantek is going to move the pages to generic names per process
  545. [19:33:36] <tantek> the hproduct- pages that is
  546. [19:33:45] <AdamCraven> You can put what I said then into the positive as well. It solves a problem
  547. [19:33:57] <AdamCraven> However, this is an irc channel
  548. [19:33:57] <tantek> you should put it in the positive - that's my point
  549. [19:34:14] <AdamCraven> and my fingers hurt
  550. [19:34:30] <AdamCraven> thus I don't want to type out all day. But I appreciate your feedback
  551. [19:34:39] <tantek> it's more than just wording
  552. [19:35:03] <tantek> it's changing your way of thinking about it - so that naturally you think more about supporting a property, rather than arguing against it's removal
  553. [19:35:14] <mfbot> [[hproduct-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+3333) hproduct-examples moved to product-examples
  554. [19:35:45] * tantek forgot to talk to Aaron Gustafson about page naming back in the day - sorry about that.
  555. [19:35:55] <AdamCraven> Got it Tantek. Anyways guys, off for some exercise. I'm excited too bewes1, think it would be used a lot.
  556. [19:35:56] <tantek> (Aaron created most of the hproduct-* pages)
  557. [19:36:05] * AdamCraven is now known as AdamCraven|away
  558. [19:36:08] <tantek> Thanks AdamCraven - hope to see you back here!
  559. [19:36:10] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  560. [19:36:40] <Tyler> tantek: Is there a section of the wiki that lists current concepts like that hProduct one?
  561. [19:36:45] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-formats": no need for a blank page with the wrong name - should have been product-formats
  562. [19:37:16] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-challenges": no need for a blank page with unknown/unclear purpose
  563. [19:39:17] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12060 * Bob Jonkman * (+59) Parsing for include-pattern - Link to IRC of 2007-01-03
  564. [19:39:19] * jiing (n=jiing@59-120-12-61.HINET-IP.hinet.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  565. [19:39:25] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
  566. [19:39:34] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  567. [19:39:47] * whafro (n=whafro@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  568. [19:39:47] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  569. [19:40:43] <mfbot> [[hproduct-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+4478) hproduct-brainstorming moved to product-brainstorming
  570. [19:42:41] <Tyler> Ah nevermind. Found the "Exploratory Discussions" section. :)
  571. [19:43:17] <Phae> Are you on the mailing list, Tyler?
  572. [19:43:40] <Tyler> Not yet Phae. I only just discovered Microformats last night when reading "HTML Mastery". :)
  573. [19:44:08] <Phae> heh. nice. Just a thought. It's picked up traffic lately, but you might find it interesting too.
  574. [19:44:10] <Tyler> I believe I'll be signing up promptly.
  575. [19:44:16] <Tyler> Oh definitely!
  576. [19:44:16] <Phae> Ok.
  577. [19:44:28] <Tyler> I'm going to wrap my brain around it this week.
  578. [19:45:07] <Tyler> I need to get to purchasing a domain as well.
  579. [19:45:09] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12061 * Tantek * (+1758) moved previous hproduct-feedback contents here since they are actually brainstorming
  580. [19:45:33] * whafro (n=whafro@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
  581. [19:45:50] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-feedback": contents moved to product-brainstorming since that's what they were. no need for hproduct-feedback until there is a solid hproduct proposal based on proper research, implied schema etc.
  582. [19:45:55] <Tyler> I'd like to get an accessibility/sematics/MF blog started. :)
  583. [19:46:11] <mfbot> [[hproduct]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+996) hproduct moved to product
  584. [19:46:50] <Phae> Accessibility with microformats is kinda where my thought processes are heading too.
  585. [19:47:27] <Tyler> Yeah, I'd actually be interested in exploring an accessibility-geared MF if one isn't already being looked into.
  586. [19:47:47] <Tyler> Or at least using current MF's in an accessibility environment.
  587. [19:48:22] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=12062 * SteveIvy * (+39)
  588. [19:48:37] * briansuda tries to remember the Web Directions South Podcast about Accessiblity and MFs
  589. [19:49:00] <Phae> It's self-pimpage, but it'll save me repeating myself: http://www.fberriman.com/?p=110
  590. [19:49:17] <Phae> that'll be Derek Featherstone talking about it I imagine.
  591. [19:49:33] <mfbot> [[User:SteveIvy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:SteveIvy&diff=0&oldid=12063 * SteveIvy * (+25)
  592. [19:49:41] <Phae> A few people have emailed me about mFs and accessibility too.
  593. [19:49:44] <Tyler> Oh nice Phae. I'll take a gander at that.
  594. [19:49:57] <briansuda> yes, that link would be good to add somewherw
  595. [19:50:00] <Tyler> My main focus in university was accessible/semantic design.
  596. [19:50:09] <Phae> Which?
  597. [19:50:40] <Tyler> Unfortunately my college didn't offer a good degree for what I wanted to study, so I made my own. :)
  598. [19:51:04] <JMulder> Heh, sounds like my university.
  599. [19:51:05] <Phae> Fair enough.
  600. [19:51:41] <Tyler> Yeah, I was lucky enough to be in the "Liberal Arts" college of my university, so making my own degree was an option.
  601. [19:51:54] <Phae> Crazy americans.
  602. [19:52:09] <Phae> But yeah. Worthy cause. :)
  603. [19:52:27] <Tyler> I'd like to think so! hehe
  604. [19:52:36] <JMulder> I only got to do that with one semester. Best semester I ever did though :x
  605. [19:53:02] <Tyler> Yeah, I basically got to make a whole bunch of independent studies and got into plenty of classes that had prerequisites.
  606. [19:53:03] <Tyler> :)
  607. [19:53:14] <JMulder> Sweet.
  608. [19:54:16] <Tyler> I'm guessing I'm the only fellow with a BA in HCI, whereas most HCI degrees are BS-based and include more CS courses.
  609. [19:54:35] <Phae> I did HCI during my computing degree. It was part of it though.
  610. [19:55:14] <Tyler> Ah neat. I basically made it an entire curriculum. haha
  611. [19:55:37] <Tyler> Excellent. I'm now the owner of 3lements.com. Future home
  612. [19:55:40] <Tyler> Woops, haha.
  613. [19:55:49] <JMulder> Lucky you. That's the only thing that makes me consider studying a bit longer after my graduation.
  614. [19:55:50] <mfbot> [[product]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product&diff=0&oldid=12064 * Tantek * (-34) made more generic to "product", fixed links, removed links to dead/empty pages
  615. [19:55:56] <Tyler> Future home of semantics, accessibility, and Microformats. :)
  616. [19:56:25] <JMulder> Currently my study is very broad .. if that's even a proper english way to say it.
  617. [19:56:37] <Phae> Probably.
  618. [19:56:44] <Phae> You mean it's varied and not that specialised?
  619. [19:56:46] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct": delete hproduct page until it has made its way through the process. until then, stick with generic product explorations
  620. [19:56:47] <JMulder> Yes.
  621. [19:56:50] <Phae> mmhmm
  622. [19:57:18] <JMulder> Which I like, but I wish they'd offer to get specialised as well. Instead, it's all self-study, as they call it. a.k.a. paying them yet doing it yourself.
  623. [19:57:39] <Tyler> That was like my studies JMulder. I took everything from technical writing, to web developer certification, to graphic design, to programming.
  624. [19:58:06] <JMulder> Cool.
  625. [19:58:31] <JMulder> Did you ever come up with a name for your degree? :p
  626. [19:58:48] <Tyler> Oh yes, sorry. Human-Computer Interaction.
  627. [19:59:13] <JMulder> Ah, that's how it's classified. Cool.
  628. [19:59:51] <Tyler> It was fun for sure. :)
  629. [19:59:52] <mfbot> [[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12065 * TimHodson * (+621) Added collection description examples
  630. [20:00:04] <Tyler> I also got a minor in English literature because I love the classics. :)
  631. [20:00:33] <mfbot> [[collection-description]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12066 * TimHodson * (+0)
  632. [20:00:55] <Tyler> I was meaning to ask, how do you go about getting that cute welcome message upon entering the room?
  633. [20:01:50] <Phae> Use ?def whatever you want.
  634. [20:01:51] <Phae> http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
  635. [20:01:54] <mfbot> [[product]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product&diff=0&oldid=12067 * Tantek * (+42) noted hProduct proposal
  636. [20:02:30] <Tyler> Lovely! Thank you Phae. :)
  637. [20:02:30] <mfbot> [[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12068 * TimHodson * (+17) Examples -
  638. [20:02:39] <Phae> Usually people just put their full name and where they blog or work so people don't get confused with aliases.
  639. [20:03:16] <mfbot> [[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12069 * TimHodson * (+85) Background -
  640. [20:03:20] <JMulder> Yeah... that won't add much value for me then ;)
  641. [20:03:27] <Phae> Well, yeah.
  642. [20:03:33] <Tyler> Ah, well, I suppose it's not going to be hard for people to know who I am. :)
  643. [20:07:07] <Tyler> ?def Tyler Roehmholdt is a web developer with Ascentium Corporation and is the author of the upcoming site, 3lements.com.
  644. [20:07:07] <jibot> Tyler Roehmholdt is a web developer with Ascentium Corporation and is the author of the upcoming site, 3lements.com.
  645. [20:07:16] <Tyler> Excellent. :)
  646. [20:07:23] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  647. [20:08:02] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  648. [20:08:40] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  649. [20:08:47] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=12070 * SteveIvy * (-47) Exploratory Discussions - fix hproduct links based on recent moving by tantek
  650. [20:08:59] <tantek> Thanks SteveIvy!
  651. [20:09:13] <monkinetic> welcome
  652. [20:09:25] <Phae> Steve Ivy's been doing interesting things with a VoteLinks plug-in for wordpress, I noticed today.
  653. [20:09:37] <Phae> I really should try it.
  654. [20:09:52] <Phae> Ah, you're here!
  655. [20:10:05] <monkinetic> please do. i need feedback on the direction it's going
  656. [20:10:05] <Phae> Case in point about aliases. :)
  657. [20:10:09] <Phae> Sure.
  658. [20:10:35] <Tyler> Neat. :) I'm going to be using my registrar's blog feature whenever it goes live.
  659. [20:11:02] <Phae> Might be worth posting a quick mail to the -discuss list monkinetic if you need a few more testers.
  660. [20:11:10] <monkinetic> yeah i should.
  661. [20:11:39] <monkinetic> have to wait a few hours until i get home - can't access home email from work. :(
  662. [20:11:50] <Phae> Fair dos. :)
  663. [20:12:42] <monkinetic> ok, emailed myself a reminder
  664. [20:12:58] <Phae> cool
  665. [20:16:12] <Tyler> Oh, hah! Looks like the blog feature has already gone live. Excellent!
  666. [20:33:46] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  667. [20:36:55] <Tyler> Perfect! http://blog.3lements.com/
  668. [20:37:51] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  669. [20:41:45] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  670. [20:44:57] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  671. [20:52:22] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  672. [20:52:25] <monkinetic> Tyler: what's the 3 for
  673. [20:52:52] <Tyler> Semantics, accessibility, and Microformats. :)
  674. [20:53:22] <monkinetic> ah. clever
  675. [20:53:22] * termie is now known as termie_burrito
  676. [20:53:27] <Tyler> The site name is pronounced, "Three Elements". :)
  677. [20:54:10] <monkinetic> hm. 3lements.com n'exist pas.
  678. [20:55:05] <Tyler> Yeah, interestingly enough, my registrar gives blogs to their users, but not hosting. :)
  679. [20:55:16] <Tyler> I have a VPS that I'll be configuring soonish for it.
  680. [20:56:15] * kergoth is now known as kergoth`food
  681. [20:59:15] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  682. [20:59:38] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  683. [21:02:48] <Tyler> There we go monkinetic. Changed out the blog title to be a bit more descriptive. :)
  684. [21:02:53] <monkinetic> heh
  685. [21:03:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Connection timed out)
  686. [21:06:05] <Tyler> You're doing Wordpress plug-in work monkinetic?
  687. [21:06:11] <monkinetic> yes
  688. [21:06:37] <Tyler> Nice. How's that coming along?
  689. [21:09:11] <monkinetic> so so. not a lot of time for it.
  690. [21:09:13] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  691. [21:09:23] <Tyler> Oh yeah? Mostly a side project I take it?
  692. [21:09:28] <monkinetic> oh yeah, for sure
  693. [21:09:32] <monkinetic> side side project
  694. [21:09:49] <monkinetic> hm, markdown and micrformats are seriously incompatible
  695. [21:09:51] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  696. [21:10:21] <Tyler> Haha.
  697. [21:10:28] <Tyler> What's your main profession/job?
  698. [21:10:48] <briansuda> i think picoformats are microformats in markdown
  699. [21:11:00] <monkinetic> Web developer at GoDaddy (blah blah i do not speak for godaddy software inc)
  700. [21:11:31] <monkinetic> briansuda: the trick is that as soon as you put something in a block-level element in markdown, it stops processing.
  701. [21:12:04] <Tyler> Hehe
  702. [21:12:10] <briansuda> well, that is a specific issue with Markdown, not the concept of marking-down
  703. [21:12:23] <Tyler> Nice monkinetic, I'm a web developer with Ascentium Corporation. Probably haven't heard of us. :)
  704. [21:12:24] <monkinetic> "Note that Markdown formatting syntax is not processed within block-level HTML tags. E.g., you can’t use Markdown-style *emphasis* inside an HTML block." -- http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#html
  705. [21:12:35] <monkinetic> briansuda: true
  706. [21:13:02] <monkinetic> perhaps i should have said that MarkDown and microformats are seriously incompatible.
  707. [21:13:23] <briansuda> markdown(tm)
  708. [21:13:31] <monkinetic> or, that
  709. [21:13:44] <Tyler> I'm at my work computer at the moment, is there a Microformats bundle for TextMate?
  710. [21:13:57] <Tyler> I can't check my copy of TM at home. :)
  711. [21:15:57] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  712. [21:16:14] <Prometheus^> not one that I'm aware of
  713. [21:16:32] <Prometheus^> I was thinking of making one myself, but never got around to it in the end
  714. [21:16:52] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  715. [21:17:15] <Prometheus^> Tyler: do you have a mac at work?
  716. [21:17:21] <Tyler> Nope. :(
  717. [21:17:26] <Prometheus^> ow :/
  718. [21:17:43] <Prometheus^> I was going to say, the TM copy is personal, so you can use it on as many computers as you want as long as you are the one using it
  719. [21:17:50] <Tyler> We're basically attached to MS at the hip, head, shoulder, brain, you name it, we're attached to them here.
  720. [21:17:56] <Prometheus^> ah
  721. [21:17:59] <Tyler> Oh very nice.
  722. [21:17:59] <Prometheus^> I feel sorry for you
  723. [21:17:59] <Prometheus^> :)
  724. [21:18:03] <Tyler> Yeah... hehe
  725. [21:18:04] <Prometheus^> yup yup
  726. [21:18:09] <Prometheus^> I've it on 3 computers myself
  727. [21:18:16] <Tyler> I'm going to be trying to inject some MF into our work though.
  728. [21:18:52] <Prometheus^> you should make your computer run mac os x through the projectx86 :D
  729. [21:18:58] <Tyler> Hehe
  730. [21:19:37] <Tyler> Actually I'm *slowly* saving up for either an iMac or MacBook Pro.
  731. [21:19:58] <Prometheus^> nice
  732. [21:20:03] <Prometheus^> I'm saving for a black macbook myself
  733. [21:20:18] <Tyler> Very cool. :)
  734. [21:20:19] <Prometheus^> I've got a ibook and powerbook from work atm
  735. [21:20:27] <Prometheus^> but I'd like one of my own
  736. [21:20:34] <Tyler> I don't mind having a small screen because I have a 20-inch widescreen back at the apartment.
  737. [21:20:42] <Prometheus^> of course, on top of those 2 I've a mac mini at home, but that's my mom's freelance computer :P
  738. [21:20:58] <Prometheus^> I've been thinking about investing in a Matrox TripleHead2Go
  739. [21:21:11] <mfbot> [[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=12071 * AndyMabbett * (+118) See Also - Sources for coordinates
  740. [21:21:12] <Tyler> Haha.
  741. [21:21:17] <Tyler> Very cool. :)
  742. [21:21:17] <Prometheus^> that'd allow me to have 3 monitors attached to my laptop, making my desktop space 3840x1024 :P
  743. [21:21:22] <Tyler> Goodness!
  744. [21:21:31] <Prometheus^> of course, that would call for wireless keyboard and mouse :)
  745. [21:21:32] <Tyler> Three 30in Cinema Displays. ;)
  746. [21:21:37] <Prometheus^> well, mouse I already have but..
  747. [21:21:42] <mfbot> [[geo-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12072 * AndyMabbett * (+117) Notes - Sources for coordinates
  748. [21:21:55] <Prometheus^> unfortunately not 3 30"
  749. [21:22:07] <Prometheus^> you'd have to get a pimped out mac pro for that
  750. [21:22:18] <Prometheus^> it'd support 4 30" cinemahd displays :)
  751. [21:22:19] <Tyler> :)
  752. [21:22:31] <Prometheus^> I saw one of those 30" in real life, they are huuuuuuge
  753. [21:22:42] <Prometheus^> I can't imagine having 4 of them set up as a rectangle
  754. [21:22:44] <mfbot> [[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12073 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Notes - Sources for coordinates
  755. [21:22:52] <Prometheus^> I don't think you could find the cursor
  756. [21:23:14] <Tyler> Do any of you know if I can do a redirect from 3elements.com to blog.3elements.com via the DNS zone file?
  757. [21:23:26] <Tyler> Haha
  758. [21:23:35] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  759. [21:24:00] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12074 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Informative References - sources for coordinates
  760. [21:24:00] <briansuda> Tyler, not really from the DNS, but you can do that on your server with .htaccess and mod_rewrite
  761. [21:24:26] <Tyler> That's what I figured briansuda. Looks like I'll be installing Bind9 on my VPS. :)
  762. [21:24:38] <Tyler> I was hoping I could do that within the zone file. Alas. :)
  763. [21:24:56] <Tyler> Or rather... installing Nginx.
  764. [21:24:58] <briansuda> only if blog and www are on two different IPs
  765. [21:25:36] <briansuda> then in DNS you can redirect www to blog
  766. [21:25:54] <Tyler> Ah yeah, blog is actually with Gandi's IP.
  767. [21:26:05] <Tyler> The www will be with my VPS.
  768. [21:26:16] <Tyler> Actually, I don't even want the www. :)
  769. [21:27:45] <Tyler> Off to get some lunch. I'll be back in a couple minutes.
  770. [21:29:38] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  771. [21:31:17] <monkinetic> when marking up a book review is there an accepted way to identify the author?
  772. [21:31:35] <monkinetic> i'm adding vcards for the authors, but not sure if i need to explcitly associate them somehow
  773. [21:31:42] <tantek_> the author of the review?
  774. [21:31:44] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  775. [21:31:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  776. [21:31:50] <monkinetic> no, the author of the book ebing reviewed
  777. [21:33:49] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  778. [21:33:50] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  779. [21:35:37] <tantek> monkinetic - that's perhaps topic for citation discussions
  780. [21:35:44] <monkinetic> hm.
  781. [21:35:48] <tantek> since you are essentially including a citation of the book being reviewed
  782. [21:37:17] <monkinetic> bascially, i've got [hreview] i found this cool book by [vcard]author1[/] [vcard]author2[/] and it was [rating]really great[/rating] [/hreview]
  783. [21:37:34] <monkinetic> (you get the idea)
  784. [21:39:21] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12075 * AndyMabbett * (+9) Field Details - currency is currently a proposal, not a fully-fleged uF
  785. [21:40:57] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12076 * AndyMabbett * (-43) Challenge Problems - so much for protecting perma-links
  786. [21:41:43] <monkinetic> perhaps <span class="vcard"><a class="fn url productauthor" href="#">author1</a></span> ?
  787. [21:42:18] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12077 * Tantek * (+34) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by AaronGustafson
  788. [21:42:49] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12078 * Tantek * (-160) removed section that pointed to an empty document. no reason to "see also" an empty document.
  789. [21:43:22] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  790. [21:44:25] <mfbot> [[hproduct-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12079 * Tantek * (+9) re-add Andy's edit of "proposed"
  791. [21:46:24] <briansuda> monkinetic, you should move the productauthor to class="vcard author"
  792. [21:46:44] <briansuda> much like hResume, we are saying class='vcard contact" that this vcard IS the contact
  793. [21:46:51] <briansuda> so you can say this vcard IS the authhor
  794. [21:47:31] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  795. [21:47:33] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]")
  796. [21:47:39] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  797. [21:47:58] * kergoth`food is now known as kergoth
  798. [21:48:23] * briansuda thought hproduct was just moved to 'product'
  799. [21:48:54] <Tyler> briansuda: Just found how to get the blog to be just 3lements.com instead of blog, without having a host. :)
  800. [21:49:22] <Tyler> Unfortunately it looks like it's going to be 3-6 hours for the change to take effect.
  801. [22:02:58] <bewest> hmm? to get a blog?
  802. [22:03:04] <bewest> why not just use wordpress.com/ ?
  803. [22:03:10] <bewest> no hassle, no host
  804. [22:03:12] <Tyler> Oh sorry no, to have the DNS switch over.
  805. [22:03:14] <bewest> immediate
  806. [22:04:22] <Tyler> I'll take a look.
  807. [22:05:10] * BobJonkma1 (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  808. [22:07:13] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=12080 * AndyMabbett * (+329) rel-tagging on Wikipedia -
  809. [22:07:14] <Tyler> I'm rather liking what Gandi is offering at this point with it's Dotclear engine. :)
  810. [22:11:24] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12081 * AndyMabbett * (+207) Tags with file extensions
  811. [22:12:44] * stuup (n=stuup@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  812. [22:13:46] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12082 * AndyMabbett * (+8) reformat for ease of linking an readability - is this presentation preferred?
  813. [22:15:50] <Tyler> What's everyone working on today/
  814. [22:15:53] <Tyler> *?
  815. [22:18:17] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=12083 * AndyMabbett * (+20) OpenIssue
  816. [22:20:04] <mfbot> [[Template:AwaitingAnswer]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:AwaitingAnswer * AndyMabbett * (+118) Awaiting answer
  817. [22:21:00] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12084 * AndyMabbett * (+84) AwaitingAnswer template
  818. [22:21:54] <tantek> empty questions do not belong in the FAQ - they belong in issues
  819. [22:21:59] <tantek> this is a little ridiculous
  820. [22:22:52] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-585b93a8a2b705f0) Quit ("Leaving")
  821. [22:24:24] <briansuda> i think the keyword in FAQ is "frequently"
  822. [22:24:40] <tantek> and if it doesn't have an answer - it is an unresolved issue
  823. [22:24:48] <tantek> and therefore belongs in -issues not -faq
  824. [22:24:51] <tantek> sigh
  825. [22:25:01] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12085 * Tantek * (-345) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  826. [22:25:04] <monkinetic> briansuda: where does the "author" value come from, and does it really mean the author of the book being reviewed, or is it intended to be used as the author of the review or page
  827. [22:25:35] <bewest> yeah, that definitely doesn't belong in FAQ
  828. [22:25:40] <bewest> not sure why someone would put it there
  829. [22:25:47] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Template:AwaitingAnswer": there is no need for this. unanswered questions should be added to a *-issues document, not empty in a *-faq
  830. [22:26:06] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  831. [22:26:28] <bewest> in fact, -issues + mailing list might be apropriate
  832. [22:26:35] <bewest> -faq is definitely not
  833. [22:26:40] * tantek is unsure why people make extra work for themselves in this way.
  834. [22:26:54] <bewest> or extra work for others....
  835. [22:27:23] <briansuda> monkinetic, in the effort to not reinvent we use the semantics of hAtom (http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author) and re-use author
  836. [22:27:34] <mfbot> [[xfolk-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=0&oldid=12086 * AndyMabbett * (+21) AwaitingAnswer
  837. [22:27:38] <tantek> bewest - too true
  838. [22:28:03] <monkinetic> briansuda: hence author here is meant "the author of the hreview" not "the author of the thing being reviewed" - yes?
  839. [22:28:03] <bewest> not again...
  840. [22:28:10] <mfbot> [[xfolk-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=0&oldid=12087 * Tantek * (-234) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Bud
  841. [22:29:01] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12088 * AndyMabbett * (+345) rv. no reason given for previous revert
  842. [22:29:12] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12089 * Tantek * (+651) moved open issues that were added to rel-tag-faq to rel-tag-issues
  843. [22:29:15] <hober> ugh.
  844. [22:29:33] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12090 * Tantek * (-345) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  845. [22:29:39] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12091 * Tantek * (+345) moved unanswered questions to rel-tag-issues
  846. [22:29:50] <bewest> this is ridiculous
  847. [22:30:14] <monkinetic> this must be what watching wikipedia edits is like
  848. [22:30:30] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12092 * Tantek * (+6) fix close tag
  849. [22:30:49] <tantek> ok, I believe I have reverted/cleaned up the damage done
  850. [22:33:39] <briansuda> monkinetic, author is a person and it is scoped to the specific format
  851. [22:33:54] * monkinetic finishes hreviewing his reviews.
  852. [22:33:57] <monkinetic> oh, ok then
  853. [22:33:58] <monkinetic> thanks
  854. [22:34:16] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12093 * AndyMabbett * (+313) Need reformatting -
  855. [22:35:16] <bewest> ...
  856. [22:35:52] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has left #microformats
  857. [22:36:17] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12094 * BenWest * (-313) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  858. [22:37:11] <hober> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pigsonthewing
  859. [22:37:29] <bewest> hober: yes.. we are aware
  860. [22:38:23] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12095 * AndyMabbett * (+313) rv. no reason given for [previous revert.
  861. [22:38:46] <bewest> Andy, the reason is the content you added is inapropriate
  862. [22:39:34] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12096 * BenWest * (-313) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by BenWest
  863. [22:40:02] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  864. [22:40:10] <bewest> just imagine FAQ stands for frequently answered questions... if there is no answer, it doesn't belong in FAQ, it belongs in -issues
  865. [22:40:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  866. [22:43:02] <bewest> saying that it was mistaken is generous...
  867. [22:55:45] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12097 * Tantek * (-188) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  868. [22:57:32] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098 * Tantek * (+0) do not add previously non-referenced in the spec "References", do not undo editor edits, especially twice or more times, as that is grounds for being banned, no time to waste with wiki-fighters
  869. [23:00:13] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  870. [23:00:30] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  871. [23:01:05] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  872. [23:04:21] * AdamCraven|away (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ()
  873. [23:06:30] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  874. [23:10:23] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-171-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  875. [23:10:23] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  876. [23:10:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  877. [23:11:22] <Tyler> Hey welcome back Phae.
  878. [23:11:24] <Phae> hey
  879. [23:11:41] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  880. [23:12:53] <Tyler> What's up for you this evening?
  881. [23:13:58] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  882. [23:14:10] <Phae> going through my emails mostly
  883. [23:15:01] <Tyler> I don't think I've ever gotten to the point where I need to go through them (fortunately?). I think the most I've ever gotten in one day has been about 5. :)
  884. [23:15:08] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12099 * AndyMabbett * (-126) Normative References - remove 'previously non-referenced in the spec "References" ' which I had earlier added, contrary to the apparently secret rule, as recently made clear in an edit from Tantek
  885. [23:15:19] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) Quit ()
  886. [23:15:59] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12100 * Tantek * (+126) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  887. [23:20:45] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12101 * Tantek * (+119) re-added informative reference which expands upon info contained in a normative reference, added Property Notes section to note that authors may want to use E.123
  888. [23:24:44] <Tyler> What's this MF Zen Garden you're working on Phae?
  889. [23:25:21] <Phae> oh. guilt.
  890. [23:25:22] <Phae> uhm.
  891. [23:25:30] <Phae> CSS zen garden but with mFs
  892. [23:25:46] <Phae> just to show "live" formats and multiple ways to display them
  893. [23:26:09] <Phae> but also an option to use javascript, rather than just CSS
  894. [23:26:32] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12102 * AndyMabbett * (-206) remove 'previously non-referenced in the spec "References" ' which I had earlier added, contrary to the apparently secret rule, as recently made clear in an edit from Tantek
  895. [23:26:41] <Tyler> Ah neat. :) I haven't done much JS work.
  896. [23:26:44] <Phae> me neither!
  897. [23:26:58] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12103 * Tantek * (+206) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  898. [23:29:19] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12104 * Tantek * (-1) restored E.123 informative reference as it is used in "Property Notes", and IMC informative reference as it is informal vCard reference which (vCard) is also referenced throughout hCard.
  899. [23:29:45] <Tyler> Pff... who needs scripts... ;)
  900. [23:30:39] <Phae> :)
  901. [23:32:34] <Tyler> Hmm... it's been a solid 2 hours since attempting to have this blog be 3lements.com without the subdomain... DNS is so stubborn sometimes.
  902. [23:34:28] <Tyler> I suppose it's due to the fact that it's the tld and not a subdomain.
  903. [23:39:43] <Phae> yeah, sometimes it just takes a while
  904. [23:39:48] <Phae> and even longer when you really want it to update :)
  905. [23:41:07] <Tyler> No joke! :)
  906. [23:41:19] <Tyler> Good thing I'm out of work in about an hour, hah.
  907. [23:41:23] * shawn__ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  908. [23:42:20] <Tyler> Unfortunately my iPod started acting up today for unknown reasons, so it's been a long day at work.
  909. [23:47:10] * shawn__ is now known as shawn
  910. [23:50:39] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  911. [23:51:54] <tantek> greetings
  912. [23:52:25] * jiing (n=jiing@59-120-12-61.HINET-IP.hinet.net) has joined #microformats
  913. [23:52:55] <tantek> Andy Mabbett has now continued to email the mailing-list with meta-discussion emails even though he has been requested to stop and been told he will be banned if he doesn't.
  914. [23:53:57] * Phae nods.
  915. [23:54:57] <tantek> For anyone here on IRC who has been following microformats-discuss, I am going to ask for anyone who wishes to note *any* reason to not ban Andy Mabbett from the mailing list for a week as a result of his inability to stop wasting list time with meta-discussion emails even after being asked to stop.
  916. [23:57:27] <tantek> I'll wait one hour - until 5pm PST for anyone else to raise any objections to banning Andy Mabbett for a week. Absent any objections (for any reason), I will then ban him.
  917. [23:59:38] * Tyler nods.

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