IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:50:01] <mfbot>
[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13203 * Drago516 * (+203) Nick Drago (Drago156) -
- [00:51:12] <mfbot>
[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13204 * Drago516 * (+17) Nick Drago (Drago156) -
- [00:51:33] <mfbot>
[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13205 * Drago516 * (+0) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
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[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13206 * Drago516 * (+3) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
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[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13207 * Drago516 * (+25) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
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[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13208 * Drago516 * (+10) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
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[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13209 * Antix * (+200) Implementations -
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- [04:06:17] <tantek>
greetings
- [04:14:00] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13210 * Tantek * (+138) brainstorming
- [04:18:12] <mfbot>
[[hcitation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcitation * Christoph * (+5705) Started proposal page. Comments welcome!
- [04:18:28] <mfbot>
[[User talk:Christoph]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Christoph&diff=0&oldid=13211 * Christoph * (+205) Welcome -
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[[hresume-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-brainstorming * Tantek * (+578) drafted
- [04:20:25] <veeliam>
greetings.
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[[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13212 * Christoph * (+148) Contributors & Supporters -
- [04:25:51] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hcitation": did not follow [[process]], especially, please see [[citation]] effort already underway and join the microformats-discuss mailing list
- [04:27:23] <tantek>
Christoph, please see http://microformats.org/wiki/process - you just reinvented a tone of work for no reason. There is already a http://microformats.org/wiki/citation microformat effort. Please familiarize yourself with the process and current efforts, and then join the mailing list and indicate your desire to contribute.
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- [05:51:03] <Enric>
Howdy
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- [10:00:39] <mfbot>
[[hcitation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcitation * AndyMabbett * (+22) redirect
- [10:04:00] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13213 * AndyMabbett * (+88) move last to problem section (No examples on cited page)
- [10:07:11] <mfbot>
[[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13214 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Contributors & Supporters - proponent -> supporter
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[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13215 * BryanRieger * (+44)
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[[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13216 * Antix * (-2) Implementations -
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[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13217 * ReiniUrban * (+11) Add url
- [13:05:24] <mfbot>
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13218 * ReiniUrban * (-2) Calvin Yu -
- [13:13:19] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13219 * FormatBerlin * (+180) Berlin Guide
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[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13220 * ReiniUrban * (+98) Calvin Yu -
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[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13221 * ReiniUrban * (+5) Calvin Yu -
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[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13222 * ReiniUrban * (-16) Calvin Yu -
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[[xhours]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xhours * Drago516 * (+5148) created
- [17:31:32] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13223 * Drago516 * (+66) added xHours to exploratory discussions
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[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13224 * Drago516 * (+112) added xHours
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[[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13225 * DerrickPallas * (+110) Problems -
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[[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13226 * Drago516 * (-73) removed one of my previous explanations
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[[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13227 * Drago516 * (-374) added DerrickPallas' idea from mailing list re: cron
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[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13228 * Drago516 * (+14) added newmarker to xHours
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- [19:21:25] <mfbot>
[[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13229 * Drago516 * (-111) now deprecated, instead use RRULE in hCalendar
- [19:22:35] <mfbot>
[[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13230 * Drago516 * (+62) added another statement
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- [19:44:19] <mfbot>
[[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13231 * Drago516 * (+67) updated projects
- [19:46:10] <mfbot>
[[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13232 * Drago516 * (+166) updated status
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- [21:44:53] <sreynen>
briansuda, it's a little frustrating to be told to use RRULE, try to use RRULE, and be told it's wrong with no explanation of how to do it right
- [21:45:01] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [21:45:53] <briansuda>
i agree, but these are things that NO one knows the right answer too
- [21:45:54] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [21:46:06] <sreynen>
if that's the case, we should stop telling people RRULE is the answer
- [21:46:22] <briansuda>
i would rather that we take the time to actually work out RRULE
- [21:46:59] <briansuda>
no one has written a test case, no one has tested it across Calendaring apps, and no one has sat down and done the HTML (yet)
- [21:47:33] <briansuda>
if someone invents xHour then what is the point? it always has to come-back to iCalendar RRULES if you want to do anything with it
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- [21:47:52] <sreynen>
i'm not arguing we should use xHours
- [21:48:08] <sreynen>
i'm suggesting we shouldn't tell someone new to the list to use something we don't even know how to use ourselves
- [21:48:14] <briansuda>
we have pretty good system with the class-design-pattern so things like title="freq=weekly" violate that, it should be more like class="freq", with a value of weekly
- [21:48:38] <briansuda>
i would agree, but alot of the RRULE stuff has been without a use-case
- [21:49:01] <sreynen>
someone asked for store hours markup back in november of '05
- [21:49:10] <sreynen>
he was told then to use RRULE
- [21:49:30] <briansuda>
did he? or is that Roger?
- [21:49:41] <sreynen>
that was the last message he ever posted to the list
- [21:49:49] <briansuda>
gotcha.
- [21:49:50] <sreynen>
i suspect the same will happen with nick
- [21:50:02] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
- [21:50:18] <sreynen>
i believe Roger's tutorial was just a coincidence. Roger is not trying to solve Nick's problem
- [21:50:59] <briansuda>
i agree, but there is only so much hand holding i can do at the moment. RRULE specific are not a high priority for me
- [21:51:36] <briansuda>
plus RRULE is under changes with iCAL-BASIC and the IETF
- [21:51:57] <briansuda>
it is a quagmire of a thing that most of the time falls outside the 80%
- [21:52:04] <briansuda>
i'm happy to help with it, but i can
- [21:52:11] <briansuda>
can't take the lead
- [21:52:27] <sreynen>
i'm trying to help, but you just told me i was wrong and i have no idea what to do now
- [21:52:44] <sreynen>
i see no way to solve nick's problem with RRULE
- [21:52:59] <sreynen>
nick's problem (store hours) is incredibly common
- [21:53:14] <briansuda>
we just need to follow the established pattern of the class-design-pattern and NOT do things like: title="freq=weekly;byday=mo,tu"
- [21:53:41] <sreynen>
we use abbr when what is published implies what is not
- [21:53:47] <sreynen>
"weekly" is not published
- [21:53:48] <briansuda>
i tried to offer a solution in the next email that breaks those out in a more human-readable form
- [21:53:54] <sreynen>
it's implied by something like "store hours"
- [21:54:14] <sreynen>
you used roger's markup, which doesn't include end times
- [21:54:30] <sreynen>
end times is the specific problem i asked about with regards to RRULE
- [21:55:00] <briansuda>
end-times as in from 8am-5pm (5pm end time) or december 31st end-time?
- [21:55:08] <sreynen>
5pm
- [21:55:27] <briansuda>
then we are in the duration not dtend
- [21:55:46] <briansuda>
the RFC is certainly not an easy thing to read
- [21:55:59] <sreynen>
you wrote "DTEND or DURATION are used to terminate the RRULE"
- [21:56:05] <briansuda>
correct
- [21:56:06] <sreynen>
5pm does not terminate the repeat
- [21:56:12] <sreynen>
it terminates a single instance
- [21:56:12] <briansuda>
right
- [21:56:32] <sreynen>
argh
- [21:56:35] <sreynen>
i said "5pm"
- [21:56:41] <sreynen>
you said "then we are in the duration"
- [21:57:18] <briansuda>
correct. with RRULE you can setup the reoccurance and say "do this rrule for the next 30 days
- [21:57:29] <briansuda>
or DTEND=UNTIL a certain date
- [21:57:40] <sreynen>
but can you say "on each day, i do this until 5pm"?
- [21:57:48] <briansuda>
store stop start hours are done differently... let me find the example
- [22:00:15] <briansuda>
Every 3 hours from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on a specific day:
- [22:00:15] <briansuda>
DTSTART;TZID=US-Eastern:19970902T090000
- [22:00:15] <briansuda>
RRULE:FREQ=HOURLY;INTERVAL=3;UNTIL=19970902T170000Z
- [22:00:29] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
- [22:00:36] * briansuda is still looking for a ranged over days
- [22:00:45] <briansuda>
Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day:
- [22:00:46] <briansuda>
DTSTART;TZID=US-Eastern:19970902T090000
- [22:00:46] <briansuda>
RRULE:FREQ=DAILY;BYHOUR=9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16;BYMINUTE=0,20,40
- [22:00:46] <briansuda>
or
- [22:00:46] <briansuda>
RRULE:FREQ=MINUTELY;INTERVAL=20;BYHOUR=9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16
- [22:01:11] <sreynen>
so INTERVAL is for an instance, DURATION is for the set
- [22:01:28] <briansuda>
it looks that way, yes
- [22:01:45] <sreynen>
unfortunately, almost all the date in store hours is implied
- [22:02:22] <sreynen>
no one actually says "open weekly for an interval of 8 hours, starting at 9am on the dates Monday, Tuesday, ...."
- [22:02:24] <briansuda>
then we need to document 'real-world examples'
- [22:02:43] <briansuda>
no, but 9-5 is an interval
- [22:03:42] <sreynen>
wait, INTERVAL is the time between repeats, not the time between start and end
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- [22:04:14] <sreynen>
neither of the examples have end times for an instance
- [22:04:59] <briansuda>
Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day:
- [22:05:04] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-142-255-110.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:05:19] <briansuda>
that is the same as EVERY 8 hours from 9-5, mon-wed
- [22:05:33] <briansuda>
or every minute...
- [22:06:45] <briansuda>
i think it might be easier to do this IN a calendar app, export it and look at the ics
- [22:07:54] <sreynen>
9-5 is not an event repeated hourly 8 times. it's a single 8 hour event
- [22:08:11] <briansuda>
you are right
- [22:09:01] <sreynen>
i think you're wrong about DTEND terminating the RRULE
- [22:09:31] <sreynen>
i think it only terminates a single instance of the RRULE
- [22:09:41] <sreynen>
but not the repetition itself
- [22:09:44] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13233 * NickDunn * (+88) New Examples -
- [22:10:05] <briansuda>
RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR;WKST=SU
- [22:10:36] <briansuda>
in iCalendar that is how to do monday-friday everyday to infinity
- [22:10:44] <briansuda>
but there is no 8-5 in that
- [22:10:52] <tantek>
problem with xhours - don't call it xhours, call it something like "open-hours" - we're not supposed to do premature naming - thought this was made clear in the process - was it not?
- [22:11:02] <sreynen>
right, because the 8-5 are defined in DTSTART and DTEND, not in the RRULE
- [22:11:05] <tantek>
and surprised that no one pointed this out either
- [22:11:19] <tantek>
how can we encourage more self-correction within the community?
- [22:11:23] <briansuda>
there is nothing else in the ics
- [22:11:27] <sreynen>
tantek, it doesn't matter what you name a spec that isn't necessary
- [22:11:50] <tantek>
sreynen, it is useful to have a generic named page to at least be a place holder for people's perceived need for something
- [22:12:12] <sreynen>
true, but this really belongs on one of the hCal pages
- [22:12:14] <tantek>
and on that page, it can say, to solve the problem of "open-hours" (or whatever), just use xyz etc.
- [22:12:28] <tantek>
the details yes belong on one of the hCalendar pages
- [22:12:42] <tantek>
it is still useful to have the "open-hours" place holder to direct people to those details
- [22:13:01] <tantek>
increased ambient findability/discoverability hopefully reduces reinvention frequency
- [22:14:23] <sreynen>
true
- [22:15:02] <sreynen>
i'll rename it and redirect it
- [22:15:26] <briansuda>
sreynen, sorry, i think you were correct:
- [22:15:26] <briansuda>
DTSTART;TZID=Atlantic/Reykjavik:20070212T080000
- [22:15:27] <briansuda>
DTEND;TZID=Atlantic/Reykjavik:20070212T170000
- [22:15:27] <briansuda>
SUMMARY:Open Hours
- [22:15:27] <briansuda>
RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR;WKST=SU
- [22:15:42] <briansuda>
DTEND is the event end, not the RRULE end.
- [22:16:11] <sreynen>
is that in the spec?
- [22:16:26] <briansuda>
no, i did what i wanted in iCal, then exported it
- [22:16:45] <briansuda>
so now i have an ics which needs to be modeled in HTML
- [22:16:59] <briansuda>
so let me see what i can do.
- [22:17:16] <sreynen>
i'm going to collect some real world examples for the HTML end of that
- [22:20:25] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
- [22:20:28] <briansuda>
<div class="vevent"><span class="rrule">We are <span class="summary"><abbr title="1" class="internal">open</abbr></span><abbr title="byday" class="MO,TU,WE,TH,FR"><abbr class="freq" title="weekly">Monday-Friday</abbr></abbr></span> from <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070212T080000">9</abbr>-<abbr class="dtend" title="20070212T170000">5</abbr></div>
- [22:21:19] <briansuda>
the next question is, how many Calendar Apps will support this. I don't have access to Outlook to test
- [22:23:24] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours * ScottReynen * (+4937) Moving "xHours" to more descriptive page name
- [22:24:24] <sreynen>
oops - i didn't realize mediawiki has a "move" option
- [22:26:00] <mfbot>
[[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13234 * ScottReynen * (-4899) Redirecting to more descriptive "operating-hours" page title
- [22:37:44] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples * ScottReynen * (+3629) Documenting real world examples of operating hours
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- [22:47:43] <tantek>
Thanks scott!
- [22:48:28] <sreynen>
no problem
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- [23:51:02] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours&diff=0&oldid=13235 * Drago516 * (-1546) reformat/ rework page
- [23:53:38] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=13236 * ChristopheDucamp * (-40) liens geo -
- [23:58:28] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples&diff=0&oldid=13237 * Drago516 * (+645) added new examples, added onto introduction, misc. other
- [23:59:49] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples&diff=0&oldid=13238 * Drago516 * (+5) switched header to <h1>
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