IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  9. [00:50:01] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13203 * Drago516 * (+203) Nick Drago (Drago156) -
  10. [00:51:12] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13204 * Drago516 * (+17) Nick Drago (Drago156) -
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  13. [01:27:10] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13206 * Drago516 * (+3) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
  14. [01:28:11] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13207 * Drago516 * (+25) Nick Drago (Drago516) -
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  25. [02:22:40] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13209 * Antix * (+200) Implementations -
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  44. [04:06:17] <tantek> greetings
  45. [04:14:00] <mfbot> [[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13210 * Tantek * (+138) brainstorming
  46. [04:18:12] <mfbot> [[hcitation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcitation * Christoph * (+5705) Started proposal page. Comments welcome!
  47. [04:18:28] <mfbot> [[User talk:Christoph]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Christoph&diff=0&oldid=13211 * Christoph * (+205) Welcome -
  48. [04:19:24] <mfbot> [[hresume-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-brainstorming * Tantek * (+578) drafted
  49. [04:20:25] <veeliam> greetings.
  50. [04:21:40] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13212 * Christoph * (+148) Contributors & Supporters -
  51. [04:25:51] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hcitation": did not follow [[process]], especially, please see [[citation]] effort already underway and join the microformats-discuss mailing list
  52. [04:27:23] <tantek> Christoph, please see http://microformats.org/wiki/process - you just reinvented a tone of work for no reason. There is already a http://microformats.org/wiki/citation microformat effort. Please familiarize yourself with the process and current efforts, and then join the mailing list and indicate your desire to contribute.
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  64. [05:51:03] <Enric> Howdy
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  96. [10:00:39] <mfbot> [[hcitation]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcitation * AndyMabbett * (+22) redirect
  97. [10:04:00] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13213 * AndyMabbett * (+88) move last to problem section (No examples on cited page)
  98. [10:07:11] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13214 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Contributors & Supporters - proponent -> supporter
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  108. [11:55:05] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13215 * BryanRieger * (+44)
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  110. [12:39:55] <mfbot> [[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13216 * Antix * (-2) Implementations -
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  113. [13:04:43] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13217 * ReiniUrban * (+11) Add url
  114. [13:05:24] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13218 * ReiniUrban * (-2) Calvin Yu -
  115. [13:13:19] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13219 * FormatBerlin * (+180) Berlin Guide
  116. [13:14:50] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13220 * ReiniUrban * (+98) Calvin Yu -
  117. [13:15:11] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13221 * ReiniUrban * (+5) Calvin Yu -
  118. [13:19:06] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=13222 * ReiniUrban * (-16) Calvin Yu -
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  138. [17:27:51] <mfbot> [[xhours]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xhours * Drago516 * (+5148) created
  139. [17:31:32] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13223 * Drago516 * (+66) added xHours to exploratory discussions
  140. [17:33:48] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13224 * Drago516 * (+112) added xHours
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  156. [17:57:31] <mfbot> [[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13225 * DerrickPallas * (+110) Problems -
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  163. [18:18:59] <mfbot> [[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13226 * Drago516 * (-73) removed one of my previous explanations
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  165. [18:30:04] <mfbot> [[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13227 * Drago516 * (-374) added DerrickPallas' idea from mailing list re: cron
  166. [18:34:09] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=13228 * Drago516 * (+14) added newmarker to xHours
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  183. [19:21:25] <mfbot> [[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13229 * Drago516 * (-111) now deprecated, instead use RRULE in hCalendar
  184. [19:22:35] <mfbot> [[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13230 * Drago516 * (+62) added another statement
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  186. [19:44:19] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Drago516&diff=0&oldid=13231 * Drago516 * (+67) updated projects
  187. [19:46:10] <mfbot> [[xhours]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13232 * Drago516 * (+166) updated status
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  203. [21:44:53] <sreynen> briansuda, it's a little frustrating to be told to use RRULE, try to use RRULE, and be told it's wrong with no explanation of how to do it right
  204. [21:45:01] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  205. [21:45:53] <briansuda> i agree, but these are things that NO one knows the right answer too
  206. [21:45:54] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  207. [21:46:06] <sreynen> if that's the case, we should stop telling people RRULE is the answer
  208. [21:46:22] <briansuda> i would rather that we take the time to actually work out RRULE
  209. [21:46:59] <briansuda> no one has written a test case, no one has tested it across Calendaring apps, and no one has sat down and done the HTML (yet)
  210. [21:47:33] <briansuda> if someone invents xHour then what is the point? it always has to come-back to iCalendar RRULES if you want to do anything with it
  211. [21:47:45] * nsotrich (n=nostrich@host217-42-76-246.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  212. [21:47:52] <sreynen> i'm not arguing we should use xHours
  213. [21:48:08] <sreynen> i'm suggesting we shouldn't tell someone new to the list to use something we don't even know how to use ourselves
  214. [21:48:14] <briansuda> we have pretty good system with the class-design-pattern so things like title="freq=weekly" violate that, it should be more like class="freq", with a value of weekly
  215. [21:48:38] <briansuda> i would agree, but alot of the RRULE stuff has been without a use-case
  216. [21:49:01] <sreynen> someone asked for store hours markup back in november of '05
  217. [21:49:10] <sreynen> he was told then to use RRULE
  218. [21:49:30] <briansuda> did he? or is that Roger?
  219. [21:49:41] <sreynen> that was the last message he ever posted to the list
  220. [21:49:49] <briansuda> gotcha.
  221. [21:49:50] <sreynen> i suspect the same will happen with nick
  222. [21:50:02] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  223. [21:50:18] <sreynen> i believe Roger's tutorial was just a coincidence. Roger is not trying to solve Nick's problem
  224. [21:50:59] <briansuda> i agree, but there is only so much hand holding i can do at the moment. RRULE specific are not a high priority for me
  225. [21:51:36] <briansuda> plus RRULE is under changes with iCAL-BASIC and the IETF
  226. [21:51:57] <briansuda> it is a quagmire of a thing that most of the time falls outside the 80%
  227. [21:52:04] <briansuda> i'm happy to help with it, but i can
  228. [21:52:11] <briansuda> can't take the lead
  229. [21:52:27] <sreynen> i'm trying to help, but you just told me i was wrong and i have no idea what to do now
  230. [21:52:44] <sreynen> i see no way to solve nick's problem with RRULE
  231. [21:52:59] <sreynen> nick's problem (store hours) is incredibly common
  232. [21:53:14] <briansuda> we just need to follow the established pattern of the class-design-pattern and NOT do things like: title="freq=weekly;byday=mo,tu"
  233. [21:53:41] <sreynen> we use abbr when what is published implies what is not
  234. [21:53:47] <sreynen> "weekly" is not published
  235. [21:53:48] <briansuda> i tried to offer a solution in the next email that breaks those out in a more human-readable form
  236. [21:53:54] <sreynen> it's implied by something like "store hours"
  237. [21:54:14] <sreynen> you used roger's markup, which doesn't include end times
  238. [21:54:30] <sreynen> end times is the specific problem i asked about with regards to RRULE
  239. [21:55:00] <briansuda> end-times as in from 8am-5pm (5pm end time) or december 31st end-time?
  240. [21:55:08] <sreynen> 5pm
  241. [21:55:27] <briansuda> then we are in the duration not dtend
  242. [21:55:46] <briansuda> the RFC is certainly not an easy thing to read
  243. [21:55:59] <sreynen> you wrote "DTEND or DURATION are used to terminate the RRULE"
  244. [21:56:05] <briansuda> correct
  245. [21:56:06] <sreynen> 5pm does not terminate the repeat
  246. [21:56:12] <sreynen> it terminates a single instance
  247. [21:56:12] <briansuda> right
  248. [21:56:32] <sreynen> argh
  249. [21:56:35] <sreynen> i said "5pm"
  250. [21:56:41] <sreynen> you said "then we are in the duration"
  251. [21:57:18] <briansuda> correct. with RRULE you can setup the reoccurance and say "do this rrule for the next 30 days
  252. [21:57:29] <briansuda> or DTEND=UNTIL a certain date
  253. [21:57:40] <sreynen> but can you say "on each day, i do this until 5pm"?
  254. [21:57:48] <briansuda> store stop start hours are done differently... let me find the example
  255. [22:00:15] <briansuda> Every 3 hours from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on a specific day:
  256. [22:00:15] <briansuda> DTSTART;TZID=US-Eastern:19970902T090000
  257. [22:00:15] <briansuda> RRULE:FREQ=HOURLY;INTERVAL=3;UNTIL=19970902T170000Z
  258. [22:00:29] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  259. [22:00:36] * briansuda is still looking for a ranged over days
  260. [22:00:45] <briansuda> Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day:
  261. [22:00:46] <briansuda> DTSTART;TZID=US-Eastern:19970902T090000
  262. [22:00:46] <briansuda> RRULE:FREQ=DAILY;BYHOUR=9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16;BYMINUTE=0,20,40
  263. [22:00:46] <briansuda> or
  264. [22:00:46] <briansuda> RRULE:FREQ=MINUTELY;INTERVAL=20;BYHOUR=9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16
  265. [22:01:11] <sreynen> so INTERVAL is for an instance, DURATION is for the set
  266. [22:01:28] <briansuda> it looks that way, yes
  267. [22:01:45] <sreynen> unfortunately, almost all the date in store hours is implied
  268. [22:02:22] <sreynen> no one actually says "open weekly for an interval of 8 hours, starting at 9am on the dates Monday, Tuesday, ...."
  269. [22:02:24] <briansuda> then we need to document 'real-world examples'
  270. [22:02:43] <briansuda> no, but 9-5 is an interval
  271. [22:03:42] <sreynen> wait, INTERVAL is the time between repeats, not the time between start and end
  272. [22:03:42] * nstrich (n=nostrich@host86-142-255-110.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  273. [22:04:14] <sreynen> neither of the examples have end times for an instance
  274. [22:04:59] <briansuda> Every 20 minutes from 9:00 AM to 4:40 PM every day:
  275. [22:05:04] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-142-255-110.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  276. [22:05:19] <briansuda> that is the same as EVERY 8 hours from 9-5, mon-wed
  277. [22:05:33] <briansuda> or every minute...
  278. [22:06:45] <briansuda> i think it might be easier to do this IN a calendar app, export it and look at the ics
  279. [22:07:54] <sreynen> 9-5 is not an event repeated hourly 8 times. it's a single 8 hour event
  280. [22:08:11] <briansuda> you are right
  281. [22:09:01] <sreynen> i think you're wrong about DTEND terminating the RRULE
  282. [22:09:31] <sreynen> i think it only terminates a single instance of the RRULE
  283. [22:09:41] <sreynen> but not the repetition itself
  284. [22:09:44] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13233 * NickDunn * (+88) New Examples -
  285. [22:10:05] <briansuda> RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR;WKST=SU
  286. [22:10:36] <briansuda> in iCalendar that is how to do monday-friday everyday to infinity
  287. [22:10:44] <briansuda> but there is no 8-5 in that
  288. [22:10:52] <tantek> problem with xhours - don't call it xhours, call it something like "open-hours" - we're not supposed to do premature naming - thought this was made clear in the process - was it not?
  289. [22:11:02] <sreynen> right, because the 8-5 are defined in DTSTART and DTEND, not in the RRULE
  290. [22:11:05] <tantek> and surprised that no one pointed this out either
  291. [22:11:19] <tantek> how can we encourage more self-correction within the community?
  292. [22:11:23] <briansuda> there is nothing else in the ics
  293. [22:11:27] <sreynen> tantek, it doesn't matter what you name a spec that isn't necessary
  294. [22:11:50] <tantek> sreynen, it is useful to have a generic named page to at least be a place holder for people's perceived need for something
  295. [22:12:12] <sreynen> true, but this really belongs on one of the hCal pages
  296. [22:12:14] <tantek> and on that page, it can say, to solve the problem of "open-hours" (or whatever), just use xyz etc.
  297. [22:12:28] <tantek> the details yes belong on one of the hCalendar pages
  298. [22:12:42] <tantek> it is still useful to have the "open-hours" place holder to direct people to those details
  299. [22:13:01] <tantek> increased ambient findability/discoverability hopefully reduces reinvention frequency
  300. [22:14:23] <sreynen> true
  301. [22:15:02] <sreynen> i'll rename it and redirect it
  302. [22:15:26] <briansuda> sreynen, sorry, i think you were correct:
  303. [22:15:26] <briansuda> DTSTART;TZID=Atlantic/Reykjavik:20070212T080000
  304. [22:15:27] <briansuda> DTEND;TZID=Atlantic/Reykjavik:20070212T170000
  305. [22:15:27] <briansuda> SUMMARY:Open Hours
  306. [22:15:27] <briansuda> RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;INTERVAL=1;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR;WKST=SU
  307. [22:15:42] <briansuda> DTEND is the event end, not the RRULE end.
  308. [22:16:11] <sreynen> is that in the spec?
  309. [22:16:26] <briansuda> no, i did what i wanted in iCal, then exported it
  310. [22:16:45] <briansuda> so now i have an ics which needs to be modeled in HTML
  311. [22:16:59] <briansuda> so let me see what i can do.
  312. [22:17:16] <sreynen> i'm going to collect some real world examples for the HTML end of that
  313. [22:20:25] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
  314. [22:20:28] <briansuda> <div class="vevent"><span class="rrule">We are <span class="summary"><abbr title="1" class="internal">open</abbr></span><abbr title="byday" class="MO,TU,WE,TH,FR"><abbr class="freq" title="weekly">Monday-Friday</abbr></abbr></span> from <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070212T080000">9</abbr>-<abbr class="dtend" title="20070212T170000">5</abbr></div>
  315. [22:21:19] <briansuda> the next question is, how many Calendar Apps will support this. I don't have access to Outlook to test
  316. [22:23:24] <mfbot> [[operating-hours]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours * ScottReynen * (+4937) Moving "xHours" to more descriptive page name
  317. [22:24:24] <sreynen> oops - i didn't realize mediawiki has a "move" option
  318. [22:26:00] <mfbot> [[xhours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xhours&diff=0&oldid=13234 * ScottReynen * (-4899) Redirecting to more descriptive "operating-hours" page title
  319. [22:37:44] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples * ScottReynen * (+3629) Documenting real world examples of operating hours
  320. [22:47:37] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1177644767.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
  321. [22:47:43] <tantek> Thanks scott!
  322. [22:48:28] <sreynen> no problem
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  327. [23:42:57] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  329. [23:51:02] <mfbot> [[operating-hours]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours&diff=0&oldid=13235 * Drago516 * (-1546) reformat/ rework page
  330. [23:53:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=13236 * ChristopheDucamp * (-40) liens geo -
  331. [23:58:28] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples&diff=0&oldid=13237 * Drago516 * (+645) added new examples, added onto introduction, misc. other
  332. [23:59:49] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples&diff=0&oldid=13238 * Drago516 * (+5) switched header to <h1>

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