IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  3. [00:09:59] <kingryan> tylerr: yes
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  23. [01:59:35] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  27. [02:49:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  38. [04:44:36] <mfbot> [[events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14977 * DanielMorrison * (+40) Attending -
  39. [04:44:47] <mfbot> [[events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=14978 * DanielMorrison * (+1) Attending -
  40. [04:46:48] <mfbot> [[User:DanielMorrison]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DanielMorrison * DanielMorrison * (+112)
  41. [04:51:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=14979 * PPC * (+313) Exemples pour se conformer -
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  50. [05:56:54] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  54. [06:20:22] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  55. [06:24:07] * beerf (n=beerf@193.170.232.145) has joined #microformats
  56. [06:24:27] <beerf> good morning
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  62. [07:01:08] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  63. [07:01:09] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  69. [07:51:40] <mfbot> [[User talk:DanielMorrison]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DanielMorrison * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
  70. [08:01:15] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  71. [08:01:15] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  72. [08:08:54] * Linmic (i=Linmic@220-134-128-77.HINET-IP.hinet.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  73. [08:09:52] * bergie (n=bergie@wlan443.krs.hia.no) has joined #microformats
  74. [08:09:52] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  77. [08:30:43] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad * AndyMabbett * (+86)
  78. [08:31:09] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=14980 * AndyMabbett * (+17)
  79. [08:34:00] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad&diff=0&oldid=14981 * AndyMabbett * (+3)
  80. [08:38:46] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) has joined #microformats
  81. [08:38:46] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  82. [08:40:56] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=14982 * AndyMabbett * (+1539) Examples - add live example (can't use existing example; "a" HTML is not recognised on this 'wiki'
  83. [08:43:42] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad&diff=0&oldid=14983 * AndyMabbett * (+858)
  84. [08:44:53] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett/scratchpad&diff=0&oldid=14984 * AndyMabbett * (-858)
  85. [08:47:54] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  86. [08:48:44] <mfbot> [[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=14985 * AndyMabbett * (+360) Sample adr - make example live
  87. [08:50:10] <mfbot> [[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=14986 * AndyMabbett * (+42) button
  88. [08:58:24] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.113.75.3.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  89. [09:03:52] * beerf_ (n=beerf@193.170.232.145) has joined #microformats
  90. [09:07:37] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14987 * AndyMabbett * (+420) Example - made example live; modifed to allow display of URL, updated to 2007 dates per linked website
  91. [09:09:23] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14988 * AndyMabbett * (+107) Comment out NON FUNCTIONING example (was not working, even before my preceding edit) - needs attention
  92. [09:10:29] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14989 * AndyMabbett * (+9) Example - tyop
  93. [09:15:55] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14990 * AndyMabbett * (-82) Found and fixed bug (unescaped "abbr" in prose)
  94. [09:17:06] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-example1-steps]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-example1-steps&diff=0&oldid=14991 * AndyMabbett * (+501) reflect changes on main hCal page
  95. [09:21:25] * beerf (n=beerf@193.170.232.145) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  96. [09:22:07] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-example1-steps]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-example1-steps&diff=0&oldid=14992 * AndyMabbett * (+233) fixes
  97. [09:22:38] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=14993 * ChristopheDucamp * (-152) microformateurs : french group to be seed and organized on a collaborative tool
  98. [09:23:20] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14994 * AndyMabbett * (+67) button at top
  99. [09:24:11] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-example1-steps]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-example1-steps&diff=0&oldid=14995 * AndyMabbett * (+72) button, related pages
  100. [09:24:32] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=14996 * ChristopheDucamp * (-18) [fr:dead link to be restored on a collaborative platform - thinking to workpress - tbd this week-end]
  101. [09:25:28] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=14997 * AndyMabbett * (-5) Buttons - rm. fragement
  102. [09:25:52] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  103. [09:25:52] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  104. [09:26:19] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=14998 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18) Christophe Ducamp (french localization) - cleaning to be done
  105. [09:29:50] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=14999 * ChristopheDucamp * (+92) [fr: PPC's hcard migrated to problem : "manque un lien vers un convertisseur vCard"]
  106. [09:30:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=15000 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
  107. [09:31:32] <mfbot> [[hlisting-extended-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-extended-examples&diff=0&oldid=15001 * Sid Jansen * (-1) changed closing-tag on line 38 of the example-code from "state" to "span"
  108. [09:33:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=15002 * ChristopheDucamp * (+110)
  109. [09:34:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=15003 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) [fr:typo]
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  113. [09:41:49] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  114. [09:41:49] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  115. [09:47:15] * bergie (n=bergie@wlan443.krs.hia.no) Quit ()
  116. [09:51:32] <McNulty> I'm having a real problem with hAtom authorship...
  117. [09:51:41] <McNulty> Why does the feed author have to be an <address>?
  118. [09:52:46] <AGraf``> ?
  119. [09:53:17] <AGraf``> an Entry Author element SHOULD be encoded in an <address> element
  120. [09:53:18] <AGraf``> not must
  121. [09:54:04] <McNulty> Basically I have an hCard on my page
  122. [09:54:08] <McNulty> and all the entries are 'by' me
  123. [09:54:11] <beerf_> whats the exact problem with that?
  124. [09:54:26] <McNulty> The rule is: If the Entry Author is missing find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard otherwise the entry is invalid hAtom
  125. [09:54:26] <beerf_> look at my blog at blog.no-panic.at
  126. [09:54:44] <beerf_> i struggled a bit with that as well, but figured it out in the end
  127. [09:55:31] <McNulty> The problem is that my page structure doesn't really allow me to use an <address>, because my hCard is my H1
  128. [09:56:45] <McNulty> At http://ciaranmcnulty.com
  129. [09:57:04] <beerf_> hmm, I just put one hCard in my footer so it gets assigned as author to every blog post in hAtom
  130. [09:57:06] <McNulty> I could add an <address> in the footer, but it's nice when microformats don't impose that sort of restructuring
  131. [09:57:08] <trovster> McNulty: Same thing I argued.
  132. [09:57:19] <trovster> McNulty: Heh, I was just at your site, weird.
  133. [09:57:26] <McNulty> trovster - really?!
  134. [09:57:42] <trovster> about the lifestream thing... via some journal crap site
  135. [09:57:50] <McNulty> Is that all I have to do then, tag a post with 'microformats' ;-)
  136. [09:58:05] <AGraf``> I think you can use the include pattern
  137. [09:58:09] <AGraf``> if you have a hCard
  138. [09:58:16] <beerf_> looks valid to me
  139. [09:58:16] <beerf_> one hCard
  140. [09:58:18] <beerf_> and several blog posts
  141. [09:58:27] <McNulty> beerf_ - the hCard isn't in an <address>
  142. [09:58:32] <AGraf``> only if you have no hcard at all you need to have an <address>
  143. [09:58:34] <trovster> Yeh, it's not /must/ address.
  144. [09:58:41] <AGraf``> McNulty it doesn't have to be
  145. [09:59:00] <McNulty> If there is no hCard in an entry (which there isn't) it will look in the nearest in-parent <address class="author vcard">
  146. [09:59:03] <McNulty> is my reading of it
  147. [09:59:08] <McNulty> to find the entry-author
  148. [09:59:25] <McNulty> trovster - I'd be interested to know how you found my site
  149. [09:59:28] <AGraf``> no only <address>
  150. [09:59:35] <beerf_> feed it through http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/ to see if it produces a valid feed
  151. [09:59:52] <McNulty> "If the Entry Author is missing find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard "
  152. [09:59:53] <trovster> McNulty: http://ciaranmcnulty.livejournal.com/55357.html --> technorati microformats tag
  153. [09:59:53] <AGraf``> [11:59:12] <McNulty> trovster - I'd be interested to know how you found my site
  154. [09:59:58] <AGraf``> i was on that site too Oo
  155. [10:00:03] <AGraf``> just a few minutes ago
  156. [10:00:07] <McNulty> ha
  157. [10:00:17] <McNulty> I only claimed it on technorati.... 10 mins ago?
  158. [10:00:24] <McNulty> and tagged my post with microformats
  159. [10:00:28] <McNulty> and all you guys show up!
  160. [10:00:37] <trovster> You have to claim it indiviually.. mmm
  161. [10:00:37] <McNulty> crazy
  162. [10:00:45] <McNulty> claim what?
  163. [10:00:54] <McNulty> I only claimed my BLOG on technorati this morning
  164. [10:01:01] <trovster> 'I only claimed it on technorati' -- oh right.
  165. [10:01:30] <McNulty> I was just playing with the livejournal controls to see if I could persuade it to add @rel="me" to the link back to my domain
  166. [10:01:55] <McNulty> beerf_ - it actually has a link to lukearno's proxy already and the output is not valid Atom
  167. [10:02:06] <McNulty> because no entries have authors
  168. [10:02:23] <beerf_> hmm, i managed to get my hCard in it as an author
  169. [10:02:32] <beerf_> can't remember the exact steps now though
  170. [10:02:40] <beerf_> take a look at my blog's source
  171. [10:02:42] <beerf_> blog.no-panic.at
  172. [10:02:46] <beerf_> gotta go, sorry
  173. [10:03:09] <McNulty> beerf_ - you've put it in an <address>, yeah
  174. [10:03:50] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@1433ahost8.starwoodbroadband.com) has joined #microformats
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  176. [10:07:41] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=15004 * Phae * (+108) adding radio times
  177. [10:08:37] <mfbot> [[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=15005 * Phae * (+12) Radio Times -
  178. [10:08:41] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  179. [10:14:17] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@1433ahost8.starwoodbroadband.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  180. [10:16:15] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  181. [10:18:54] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=15006 * AndyMabbett * (-109) Television listings - Success!
  182. [10:20:40] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=15007 * AndyMabbett * (+138) Geo Successes - Radio Times - I helps to know someone on their staff ;-)
  183. [10:22:36] <mfbot> [[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=15008 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Radio Times - dab
  184. [10:23:47] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=15009 * AndyMabbett * (+79) New Examples - Radio Times
  185. [10:28:03] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=15010 * AndyMabbett * (+214) New Examples - more
  186. [10:30:09] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=15011 * AndyMabbett * (+180) New Examples -
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  188. [10:34:55] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=15012 * AndyMabbett * (+63) New Examples - Radio Times hCal bugs
  189. [10:35:51] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=15013 * AndyMabbett * (-122) moved to hCalendar-examples (a deployment, not an imlpementation)
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  191. [10:52:03] <mfbot> [[buttons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=15014 * AndyMabbett * (+247) Palette (please pretiffy!)
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  194. [11:12:25] <mfbot> [[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=15015 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Palette - reverse
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  196. [11:15:06] <mfbot> [[Template:NewMarker]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:NewMarker&diff=0&oldid=15016 * AndyMabbett * (+0) tweak colour to match logo
  197. [11:15:32] <mfbot> [[Template:NewMarker-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:NewMarker-fr&diff=0&oldid=15017 * AndyMabbett * (+0) tweak colour to match logo
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  199. [11:16:19] <mfbot> [[Template:NewMarker-pt-br]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:NewMarker-pt-br&diff=0&oldid=15019 * AndyMabbett * (+0) tweak colour to match logo
  200. [11:16:45] <mfbot> [[Template:SuccessMarker]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:SuccessMarker&diff=0&oldid=15020 * AndyMabbett * (+0) tweak colour to match logo
  201. [11:17:01] <mfbot> [[Template:SuccessMarker-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:SuccessMarker-fr&diff=0&oldid=15021 * AndyMabbett * (+0) tweak colour to match logo
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  207. [11:53:56] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  209. [11:56:55] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  211. [12:02:09] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=15022 * AndyMabbett * (+54) Geo - wikimapia - positive reply
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  214. [12:27:25] <beerf> re
  215. [12:28:46] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15023 * AndyMabbett * (+774) Simplification of date-end
  216. [12:29:12] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15024 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Simplification of date-end -
  217. [12:29:53] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15025 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Simplification of date-end -
  218. [12:30:14] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15026 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Simplification of date-end -
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  221. [12:30:37] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  238. [13:11:23] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  241. [13:11:52] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  252. [13:50:29] <DavidMead> here's a question for the masses
  253. [13:51:05] <DavidMead> we are developing a site that lists authors, should we be using a specific microformat for the book title that they wrote?
  254. [13:53:25] <bergie> maybe hListing?
  255. [13:56:47] <DavidMead> @bergie - i'll look into that
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  263. [14:11:48] <DavidMead> i don't know if hListing is really what I'm looking for and hReview doesn't seem to have something
  264. [14:12:11] <DavidMead> i think i'll have to sit down and noodle this a little more :-)
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  266. [14:16:28] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  267. [14:16:35] <briansuda> you should look at the proposed hCite format as well, it still need some work, but this might be a good opportinuty to find issues
  268. [14:16:41] * mkaply (n=mkaply@ppp-70-250-155-122.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  269. [14:17:03] <DavidMead> @briansuda - is that in the wiki?
  270. [14:17:42] <briansuda> yes, http://microformats.org/wiki/citation but take it with a grain of salt at the moment
  271. [14:19:21] <DavidMead> they looks a little closer
  272. [14:19:46] <DavidMead> it's a page for literary award winners so it would go
  273. [14:20:21] <DavidMead> image | authors name | authors book
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  278. [14:43:56] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  279. [15:05:07] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-58d508e3f26e7ad7) has joined #microformats
  280. [15:05:07] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  281. [15:13:56] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=15027 * ManuSporny * (+32) Video -
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  283. [15:25:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  284. [15:33:08] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=15028 * Tantek * (+237)
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  287. [15:33:44] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  288. [15:35:44] <mfbot> [[priorities]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=priorities&diff=0&oldid=15029 * Tantek * (-92)
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  290. [15:43:34] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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  298. [16:00:16] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  308. [16:31:18] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  310. [16:31:30] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  323. [17:02:25] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  327. [17:16:50] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  332. [17:35:34] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15030 * RyanKing * (+367) Photos and other attachments - adding note about ATTACH cardinality
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  334. [17:41:50] * bergie (n=bergie@195.18.206.126) has joined #microformats
  335. [17:41:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  337. [17:46:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  338. [17:46:41] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  340. [17:46:54] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  341. [17:46:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  342. [17:49:35] * trovster (n=trovster@user-5440dc8a.wfd79a.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  343. [17:49:35] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  344. [17:53:52] <SamRose> I see the draft for re-payment, but I also wonder if anyone is thinking about something like "rel-pledge" for money pooling?
  345. [17:58:00] <kingryan> SamRose: I think rel-payment considered non-commercial transactions as well
  346. [17:59:24] <SamRose> kingryan: thanks for your response, I am also thinking about commercial applications, any application where people want to both pledge towards ppoling money, and share revenue (using rel-payment data presumably)
  347. [18:01:39] <mkaply> ok. total nerdy javascript question. When I was first creating my JS microformat templates, I thought it would be cool to distinguish between singular and plural properties by indicating this in the structure as value: "" or value: [] and then using instanceof Array to check if it was singular or plural.
  348. [18:01:47] <mkaply> While at the time this seemed like a good idea, my choice of "value" was bad. So here's the question. If you were describing a microformat, how would you want to indicate a value was singular or plural?
  349. [18:02:00] <defunkt> mkaply: i use one vs many :)
  350. [18:02:03] <tantek> SamRose, can you find examples on the web of people pledging money but not paying it? E.g. in blog posts?
  351. [18:02:22] <bewest> mkaply: what do you mean by value?
  352. [18:02:23] <tantek> Let's start with a URL to a real world example of what you are talking about so we can better understand the problem.
  353. [18:02:45] <tantek> mkaply, the singularity of the value?
  354. [18:02:55] <tantek> (as opposed to the value of the singularity)
  355. [18:02:57] <mkaply> bewest: that's exactly the problem. It was a very poor choice of word. value is overused. it should probably be plurality: "" or plurality: []
  356. [18:03:09] <bewest> mkaply: of what?
  357. [18:03:16] <mkaply> bewest: sorry, of the property.
  358. [18:03:25] <mkaply> Like how to indicate that a property is plural or singular
  359. [18:03:42] <mkaply> "post-office-box" : {
  360. [18:03:42] <mkaply> value: ""
  361. [18:03:42] <mkaply> },
  362. [18:03:42] <mkaply> "street-address" : {
  363. [18:03:42] <mkaply> value: []
  364. [18:03:43] <mkaply> },
  365. [18:03:45] <bewest> mkaply: do you mean the ability of a property to have many values?
  366. [18:03:52] <mkaply> bewest: yes.
  367. [18:03:54] <bewest> for example, you can have many telephone numbers, or many urls?
  368. [18:04:20] <mkaply> I need a better way to indicate in a property that the property can have many values. My choice of value: "" or value: [] was shortsited.
  369. [18:04:27] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@conference/etech2k7/x-5dce6a5d171ceba0) has joined #microformats
  370. [18:06:20] <SamRose> tantek: actually, the example that I would give would be in a wiki. Although, a blog post could be fine. I am thinking about where people are raising funds, as you see in fundable and similar sites. But, allowing people to carry on these pledging activities outside of the fundable-type silos
  371. [18:06:21] <kingryan> why not cardinality?
  372. [18:07:02] <mkaply> kingryan: There's a word was looking for. I was trying to determine a word/question where the answers were singular or plural.
  373. [18:07:17] <mkaply> and should I spell out "singluar" and plural" or use my instanceof thing
  374. [18:07:43] <bewest> don't use instanceof
  375. [18:08:04] <bewest> things like embedding functions and using instanceof make it less interoperable
  376. [18:08:41] <bewest> I say it's fine to push that burden on to the consuming agent
  377. [18:08:48] <mkaply> ok. I'll switch to cardinality: "[singular|plural]"
  378. [18:10:32] <tantek> SamRose, a wiki is fine also, what's the URL?
  379. [18:10:38] <mkaply> kingryan: you are quite the vocabularian
  380. [18:11:02] <mkaply> that was a total misuse of that word
  381. [18:11:10] <tantek> Ryan's right, cardinality is the right term
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  383. [18:14:19] * dydimust` (n=tk@192.231.160.6) has joined #microformats
  384. [18:14:36] <kingryan> btw, mkaply do you use the test suite?
  385. [18:15:10] <bewest> (I think he meant his own use of vocabularian was an abuse)
  386. [18:15:11] * kingryan checks his email and realizes the question is answered already
  387. [18:15:12] <mkaply> kingryan: Not really. mainly because I havent' taken the time to download it locally and it's not really useable on the web
  388. [18:15:29] <kingryan> what would make it useable on the web for you?
  389. [18:15:30] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  390. [18:15:32] <mkaply> I did mean my abuse of vocabularian, not cardinality
  391. [18:15:55] * dydimust` is now known as dydimustk
  392. [18:16:05] <mkaply> kingryan: have it navigable directly. Similar to the hcard tests (although those aren't that good either necessarily) It's really a question of tests for web based parsers or command line parsers
  393. [18:16:49] <kingryan> so, you would only test by hand, not with anything automated?
  394. [18:17:49] <tantek> you might say test by hand often precedes anything automated
  395. [18:18:04] <tantek> thus anything that makes it easier to test by hand may lead to more automated testing as well
  396. [18:18:10] <kingryan> tantek: perhaps
  397. [18:18:19] <kingryan> I usually skip straight to automated
  398. [18:18:20] <tantek> it also means more people are likely to test
  399. [18:18:23] <mkaply> kingryan: I would love to get to a place of automated. There's no reason My parser couldn't output a javascript view of what I am parsing and compare the results.
  400. [18:18:34] <tantek> kingryan, that's the experience with W3C test suites
  401. [18:18:50] <tantek> the test suites that were navigable (with permalinks to each test case / test page) were the ones that got the most exercising
  402. [18:18:51] <kingryan> I guess I'm not used to browser based testing
  403. [18:18:56] <mkaply> But my goal is to display content in the browser, and the hg stuff requires like 5 steps per testcases
  404. [18:19:02] <tantek> not the ones that jumped straight to fully-automated configurations
  405. [18:19:05] <mkaply> If they would just have a raw file link on the main page, I would be set
  406. [18:19:15] <mkaply> I think it's silly the hoops you have to go through in their scenario
  407. [18:19:23] <tantek> in fact, the so-called automated ones had *numerous* bugs in the test cases themselves because not enough people had looked at them by hand
  408. [18:19:31] <tantek> e.g. DOM1.0, etc.
  409. [18:20:08] <tantek> even in test cases, the user visible/accessible the "content", the higher quality it turned out to be
  410. [18:20:20] <tantek> the *more* user visible/accessible the "content"
  411. [18:21:01] <kingryan> hmm, ok
  412. [18:21:18] <kingryan> I'm gonna think about this a bit and see if I can make something better
  413. [18:21:25] <tantek> just experience with a set of W3C test suites, YMMV
  414. [18:22:08] <mkaply> http://hg.microformats.org/tests then manifest then hcard then file then raw. and then to look at the vcf, back twice, file, raw
  415. [18:22:52] <tantek> FYI: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/testsuitedocumentation.html and http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html - written specifically for CSS (which obviously needs more visual attention), but much of those documents can be applied to test suites/cases in general.
  416. [18:23:50] <kingryan> mkaply: why not just use http://microformats.org/tests/ ?
  417. [18:24:00] <kingryan> those are the stable, official ones
  418. [18:24:11] <mkaply> kingryan: I do. But it's missing hcalendar which is kind of key.
  419. [18:24:16] <mkaply> And even those are a problem.
  420. [18:24:22] <kingryan> right, 'cause those tests kinda suck
  421. [18:24:33] <mkaply> The testcases don't describe in any way what they are supposed to be testing. I have to go by the filename
  422. [18:25:02] <kingryan> that's not enough description? :D
  423. [18:25:19] <mkaply> And personally, I would love to see the VCF output on the testcase. It's silly to have to go to the HTML and then back to the VCF. Use an iframe to embed it.
  424. [18:25:26] <kingryan> once again, when building them, we were thinking of automated tests, which don't need to know what's being tested
  425. [18:25:47] <kingryan> how about we just copy the VCF into a <pre>?
  426. [18:26:23] <kingryan> and what if we had JSON, too?
  427. [18:26:45] <mkaply> kingryan: that would be awesome. the json would be great. I'm thinking I'll write a JSON handler for Operator for testing purposes
  428. [18:26:58] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  429. [18:27:00] <bewest> could you embed an hcard in a test page and use the description to describe the test, the hcard to describe the location of the test (this URL) and then create an index page to make the tests navigable?
  430. [18:27:48] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aay032.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  431. [18:28:03] <kingryan> bewest: what do you mean by "embed an hcard in a test page" and how is that different than the status quo?
  432. [18:28:14] <tantek> bewest, kingryan, see above URLs for how CSS test cases / URLs embedded the test CSS in the page itself for viewing as well as in the source for executing - it's a reasonable pattern for many kinds of content/format testing.
  433. [18:28:33] <kingryan> tantek: yeah, I've read those and I'm working on digesting them
  434. [18:28:52] <kingryan> tantek: I'm just trying to get feedback from people who've worked with our test suite
  435. [18:29:08] <bewest> he seems to be suggesting that there are room for improvements in navigating the tests, and that the filename isn't quite enough description
  436. [18:29:33] <bewest> so if some metadata were encoded in the test, some indexer could make it more navigable from a test landing page
  437. [18:29:38] <mkaply> IT's basically a difference between using the testcases in the browser and using them as standalone
  438. [18:29:47] <mkaply> the webcards guy would probably see it the same way
  439. [18:30:20] <mkaply> Andy :)
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  442. [18:31:48] * mkaply is actually about to use them right now since he rewrote some parsing stuff
  443. [18:32:25] <mkaply> You guys will be sad to know that I bit the bullet and had to add some custom workaround code in operator for upcoming.org. I was trying so hard not to have site specific workarounds
  444. [18:32:48] <mkaply> But I found that upcoming.org worked in all previous operator releases (because of my bug) and once I fixed my bug, operator wouldn't work on upcoming anymore and people would accuse me :)
  445. [18:33:25] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-206-125-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  446. [18:33:25] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  447. [18:35:27] <kingryan> mkaply: what's the nature of the workaround?
  448. [18:35:57] <SamRose> tantek: sorry for disappearing, battery ran out....example of pledging on wiki pages in the wild: http://www.communitywiki.org/en/CommunityWikiBank
  449. [18:36:12] <mkaply> kingryan: Add a day to their dtends. they aren't doing inclusive dtends
  450. [18:36:32] <kingryan> for all-day events?
  451. [18:37:32] <mkaply> kingryan: yes. all day events with no time specified
  452. [18:37:54] <kingryan> gotcha
  453. [18:37:56] <mkaply> they actually have the bug when they add to google
  454. [18:38:01] <mkaply> http://upcoming.org/event/110145/
  455. [18:38:09] <kingryan> this is precisely the thing andy was proposing on the wiki recently
  456. [18:38:13] <kingryan> that we make this simpler
  457. [18:39:50] <tantek> Sam, that's an interesting example. Perhaps you could start http://microformats.org/wiki/pledge-examples with that URL, and also describe there the problem you think would be solved if such information was automatically discoverable and parseable. See http://microformats.org/wiki/process for more details.
  458. [18:39:57] <SamRose> tantek: also an example in french http://www.wikiservice.at/fractal/wikidev.cgi?FR/Tontine (scroll down and see where people are pledging euros)
  459. [18:40:10] <SamRose> tantek: sure
  460. [18:40:28] <SamRose> tantek: thanks for your feedback
  461. [18:40:35] <mkaply> So this is what a simple microformat definition for operator will look like
  462. [18:40:37] <mkaply> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/5378
  463. [18:41:15] <mkaply> hcalendar is a little more interesting
  464. [18:41:16] <mkaply> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/5379
  465. [18:41:23] <mkaply> it shows the datatypes and nested mciroformats
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  468. [18:47:18] <mfbot> [[events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=15031 * DavidMead * (+31) Attending -
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  471. [18:48:31] <jibot> thecrypto is working at MP3tunes and has too many sideprojects to count
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  479. [19:02:25] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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  494. [19:27:09] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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  498. [19:29:51] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15032 * AndyMabbett * (+73) Simplification of date-end - more evidence
  499. [19:45:07] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15033 * Mike * (+236) Working straw schema -
  500. [19:48:13] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15034 * Mike * (+210) Container - finish adding container schema field and links to thread beginning in discussion section
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  502. [19:51:04] <jibot> mmc_ is Michael McCracken and can be found online at http://michael-mccracken.net/
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  513. [20:32:23] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  523. [21:04:34] <jibot> mmc_ is Michael McCracken and can be found online at http://michael-mccracken.net/
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  533. [21:31:30] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  544. [21:57:04] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15035 * Tantek * (+810) added img vs object versions of ATTACH, iCalendar equivalent.
  545. [21:58:10] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15036 * RyanKing * (-26) Photos and other attachments - no @type on img
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  547. [22:00:57] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15037 * Tantek * (+26) Reverted edit of RyanKing, changed back to last version by Tantek
  548. [22:01:17] <tantek> Ryan didn't notice my fix ;)
  549. [22:01:29] <tantek> <object> *does* have @type :)
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  555. [22:03:55] <kingryan> whoops
  556. [22:04:08] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=15038 * Tantek * (-85) <img> tag does not have @type, so hCard parsers shouldn't look for it.
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  560. [22:09:09] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15039 * AndyMabbett * (+33) General Questions - fix non-displaying text; causing invalid uFs
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  563. [22:12:00] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=15040 * Chris Messina * (-2)
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