IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:01:31] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [00:23:27] <KevinMarks>
http://scripting.wordpress.com/2005/12/19/requirements-for-interop/
- [00:23:37] <KevinMarks>
sound like hAtom to anyone?
- [00:27:34] <_fil_>
well if you don't have 100 000 articles it is, yes
- [00:27:54] <_fil_>
if you have lots of data, it's probably not that easy
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- [01:53:58] <tantek>
This whole concept of having a separate "export" format doesn't make sense. It's all extra work.
- [01:54:14] <tantek>
Why not simply have your online archives be your "export"?
- [01:54:21] <tantek>
Why duplicate the data for no good reason?
- [01:54:34] <tantek>
hAtom allows you to achieve this. Publish once. Import/syndicate everywhere.
- [01:55:49] <tantek>
Why not have the published data *be* the interoperable data?
- [01:55:55] <tantek>
Why must they be separate?
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rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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- [03:16:57] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
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- [03:41:47] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
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- [04:38:13] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
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- [05:44:12] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3471 * Ed Summers * (+570) Tags -
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- [05:56:13] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [06:47:49] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3472 * Myelin * (+1581) added marc/mods/dc note and example xhtml
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- [07:13:14] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [07:53:00] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:19:51] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3473 * Myelin * (+269) MARC / MODS / Dublin Core -
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- [10:41:14] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3474 * DavidJanes * (-48) Fixed title rules
- [10:42:35] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3475 * DavidJanes * (-219) Removed FeedTitle and FeedPemalink
- [11:09:20] * izo (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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- [12:35:09] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [13:05:45] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [14:08:32] <fuzzyBSc>
I think I'm ready to vote that headers are not treated as hAtom titles at all.
- [14:10:13] <fuzzyBSc>
My blog is essentially one feed. It has a header at the top, a nav bar on the left, and content everywhere else.
- [14:11:06] <fuzzyBSc>
Unfortunately, the hAtom straddles the nav bar in the actual html. This means that the headers within my nav bar are being parsed as extra titles by my current hAtom2Atom.xsl
- [14:17:18] <fuzzyBSc>
Of course the problem would re-emerge if multiple class=title elements appeared for various reasons in the document.
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- [14:44:24] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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- [14:59:47] <fuzzyBSc>
Hrrm. Citation vs cataloging.
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- [15:06:46] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
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- [17:30:14] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [18:53:04] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=3476 * Galaga Gal * (+219) Examples in the wild -
- [18:57:21] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=3477 * Galaga Gal * (+1) Examples in the wild -
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- [19:20:48] <Tantek>
good morning
- [19:20:56] <Tantek>
we've been nominated for an award
- [19:20:58] <Tantek>
http://www.kbcafe.com/iBLOGthere4iM/?guid=20051220093051
- [19:21:34] <Tantek>
"Best Web 2.0 Blog"
- [19:21:47] <Tantek>
#7
- [19:25:23] <Tantek>
question #7 that is. ;)
- [19:57:49] <Frederic>
evening
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- [20:18:30] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [20:47:30] <mfbot>
[[microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats&diff=0&oldid=3478 * Atamido * (+5) more thoughts on how microformats are different -
- [21:06:34] * Atamido (n=Atamido@user-0ccsqt9.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:07:15] <Atamido>
You might want to update the IRC link for chat.freenode.net http://www.microformats.org/discuss/
- [21:08:17] <tantek>
Atamido, irc. is working for me right now
- [21:11:07] <Atamido>
tantek:
- [21:11:13] <Atamido>
http://freenode.net/news.shtml
- [21:11:17] <Atamido>
Stupid paste...
- [21:11:55] <Atamido>
"We believe that it will be helpful to make a gradual, permanent cutover of the main rotation hostname from irc.* to chat.* to make it somewhat less likely we'll experience future problems."
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- [21:15:27] <Atamido>
Wanted to say that I enjoyed the hCard presentation at SXSW 2005.
- [21:17:04] <Atamido>
Also, was wondering if there is a usenet interface for the mailing list.
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- [21:17:15] <Atamido>
Gmane.org or something.
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- [21:23:26] * Atamido whistles.
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- [21:23:38] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
- [21:24:09] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [21:24:59] <tantek>
Atamido, thanks!
- [21:25:14] <tantek>
hmm... don't know about a usenet interface
- [21:25:27] <Atamido>
Is there any problem with me setting one up?
- [21:25:59] <Atamido>
I find usenet readers to be far superiour to other methods of following threaded content.
- [21:26:39] <tantek>
sad that that is still true
- [21:26:43] <tantek>
but i can believe that
- [21:27:01] <tantek>
sure, what is involved with setting that up?
- [21:27:14] <tantek>
BTW, that freenode news also says: "If you're a client developer or you run an IRC network list site, please do not list chat.freenode.net, in your client or site without first emailing staff at freenode dot net to make sure it's okay to do so."
- [21:27:34] <tantek>
so for now, we'll probably just stick with "irc." unless they change their messaging.
- [21:27:54] <Atamido>
http://gmane.org/add.php
- [21:28:49] <Atamido>
I wasn't sure exactly what they meant by "client developer", but I assumed it meant people developing IRC client software.
- [21:29:14] <Atamido>
Like everything else, their news post isn't very clear. ;)
- [21:31:02] <Atamido>
I would suggest choosing "Non-public (posting through Gmane allowed for list members)" or "Posting allowed (default)"
- [21:32:32] <Atamido>
I have a question about "design patterns".
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- [21:34:27] <Atamido>
Background: I am helping with the next major revision of some content management software. As part of this, I am helping them get semantic by moving from using tables for layout, using <b><font> for titles instead of <h2>, and other things.
- [21:35:25] <Atamido>
Right now my two primary focuses are the news sections (I guess I can just call it a blog?) and the forums.
- [21:37:17] <Atamido>
I need to make all of the changes now before it is released, because after it goes public, people will begin to template for it and it will no longer be practical to make major changes.
- [21:38:02] <Atamido>
So I want to design to the future by implementing as many microformat design principles as possible right now.
- [21:39:44] <Atamido>
This would have the end goal of possibly allowing more relevant searches by things like Google.
- [21:46:26] <tantek>
Atamido, that sound very promising
- [21:46:54] <tantek>
Since it sounds like a lot of your work will be frozen once you've completed it
- [21:47:07] <tantek>
hence I recommend sticking to well known semantic XHTML practices
- [21:47:30] <tantek>
and some of the "established" microformats
- [21:47:35] <tantek>
that others have put through the paces
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- [21:47:54] <tantek>
in general folks in the microformats community tend to be very evolutionary
- [21:48:01] <tantek>
get some stuff working, and iterate
- [21:48:17] <Atamido>
A few of the things are indicating who a post was made by, when they made that post, and possibly when the post was last edited.
- [21:48:36] <Atamido>
I intend to use the Date stuff directly.
- [21:48:59] <Atamido>
But, there don't seem to be any naming conventions for class names to follow.
- [21:49:34] <tantek>
in general, best practices use semantic class names
- [21:49:36] <Atamido>
For instance, I have two different dates, and only one of them is likely to be relevant to anyone outside of the site.
- [21:50:34] <tantek>
but as far as picking the names, that's very much an art in the web design community
- [21:50:43] <Atamido>
Such as "dtreview" from hReview.
- [21:50:54] <tantek>
in the microformats community we try VERY hard to minimize the vocabulary, and reuse from established microformats
- [21:51:11] <tantek>
hence hCard introduced no new names - it used names from vCard RFC2426
- [21:51:19] <tantek>
similarly with hCalendar / iCalendar
- [21:51:28] <tantek>
hReview reused names from both hCard and hCalendar
- [21:52:20] <tantek>
"dtreviewed" was a new class name introduced to hReview using the pattern of "dtstart", "dtend", "dtstamp" from hCalendar which are actually from iCalendar RFC2445
- [21:52:28] <tantek>
the principle here is: minimal invention
- [21:52:33] <tantek>
don't invent new formats if at all possible
- [21:52:37] <Atamido>
Yes, I wanted to follow the guidlines and aviod creating anything new as much as possible.
- [21:52:46] <tantek>
don't invent new names if at all possible
- [21:52:56] <tantek>
and don't even invent new ways of making names if at all possible
- [21:53:07] <tantek>
now of course this can be quite restrictive
- [21:53:16] <tantek>
and that's why it's just for microformats
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- [21:53:41] <tantek>
if you're just trying to do good semantic web design, then you will likely pick better names according to whatever is the IA of yoursite.
- [21:53:46] <Atamido>
It would be nice if all of the naming conventions were located in a single place. :)
- [21:53:53] <tantek>
heh
- [21:54:06] <Atamido>
I want to go with established standards.
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- [21:54:11] <tantek>
right
- [21:54:17] <tantek>
some microformats are "established"
- [21:54:22] <tantek>
and others are still being discussed
- [21:54:35] <tantek>
and there are some in between, like hReview
- [21:54:47] <tantek>
only you can decide where on that spectrum is appropriate for your site
- [22:01:23] <Atamido>
Are there any thoughts that come to mind for already established standards that would be relevant to me?
- [22:01:55] <Atamido>
This was handy. http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-formats
- [22:01:57] <tantek>
I think the most obvious one is to use hCards for the representations of authors/people
- [22:02:01] <tantek>
cool
- [22:02:04] <Atamido>
But I don't see any followup to it.
- [22:02:24] <tantek>
hAtom is the followup
- [22:03:16] <_fil_>
I have the same project as you atamido, for my CMS (www.spip.net)
- [22:04:01] <_fil_>
I have for the moment implemented hCard, hAtom, hComment, and the relTag and translation link types
- [22:04:21] <_fil_>
it makes clean and nice web pages :)
- [22:04:46] <Atamido>
I plan on using hCard, but there are two limitations for it. 1. There doesn't seem to be a field for "username" instead of real names. 2. There still isn't a way to indicate this person is the author as opposed to just an informative name.
- [22:05:08] <_fil_>
the author would be "me", I think
- [22:05:46] <_fil_>
"me" is "me who's writing", in my understanding (not "me the webmaster)
- [22:07:46] <Atamido>
Hmmmm... If I am the webmaster and have my contact info at the bottom of the page, it would be me. If that page also contains articles posted by others, they are not also "me" are they?
- [22:10:30] <_fil_>
well, if the articles are enclosed in hAtom, then "me" is relative to the hAtom item
- [22:11:34] <_fil_>
when inside an item, "me" would be meant as "the author of this item"; on a web page without context, it would be the author of the page (whatever that means)
- [22:11:54] <_fil_>
but tantek is the boss here :)
- [22:12:01] <Atamido>
Is "me" specified in hCard?
- [22:12:06] <_fil_>
i'm just trying to cope with the ideas
- [22:14:41] <_fil_>
it's � rel="me" �
- [22:15:07] <_fil_>
and I have no idea if it's FOAF or hCard or any other proposed standard, now that you mention it
- [22:15:45] <Atamido>
_fil_: Where is an example on your sit of using these microformats?
- [22:15:59] <_fil_>
on localhost for the moment
- [22:16:26] <_fil_>
on my test server at http://fil.rezo.net/spip/ there is an older version
- [22:16:39] <_fil_>
(please don't publish this link)
- [22:17:17] <_fil_>
sorry the home page is another test :)
- [22:17:19] <_fil_>
try http://fil.rezo.net/spip/article.php3?id_article=28
- [22:18:16] <_fil_>
or here
- [22:18:17] <_fil_>
http://fil.rezo.net/spip/article.php3?id_article=24
- [22:18:24] <_fil_>
in fact here i don't use "me"
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- [22:25:26] <Atamido>
Ah, you use class="url fn" which would not be right if it is a username instead of a firstname.
- [22:26:10] <Atamido>
Perhaps something like class="url un" ?
- [22:28:22] <Atamido>
Or class="url nickname"
- [22:31:43] <Atamido>
Grrr... I'm going to have to read through parts of rfc2426.
- [22:41:34] <Atamido>
Okay, FN is required, and NICKNAME could be added. But what if you only want the NICKNAME to be displayed? Do you mark information as both FN and NICKNAME, even though there may be another page that properly lists FN and NICKNAME seperately?
- [22:43:17] <Atamido>
Type special note: The nickname is the descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing. It can also be used to specify a familiar form of a proper name specified by the FN or N types
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- [23:02:18] <_fil_>
Atamido: I don't know enough about vCard to answer; it seems clear that microformats are not designed to encompass all situations, but only the most common ones
- [23:03:14] <_fil_>
and you can of course freely extend them at will, or use the more complete xoxo methods to publish nice xhtml and yet structured data
- [23:08:43] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:08:44] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [23:08:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [23:18:42] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [23:18:42] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [23:20:40] <tantek>
Atamido, yes you could have the nickname as their fn if that is all you have
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- [23:21:51] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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