IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:31] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:01:31] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  3. [00:08:55] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
  4. [00:23:27] <KevinMarks> http://scripting.wordpress.com/2005/12/19/requirements-for-interop/
  5. [00:23:37] <KevinMarks> sound like hAtom to anyone?
  6. [00:27:34] <_fil_> well if you don't have 100 000 articles it is, yes
  7. [00:27:54] <_fil_> if you have lots of data, it's probably not that easy
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  9. [01:27:05] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  10. [01:53:58] <tantek> This whole concept of having a separate "export" format doesn't make sense. It's all extra work.
  11. [01:54:14] <tantek> Why not simply have your online archives be your "export"?
  12. [01:54:21] <tantek> Why duplicate the data for no good reason?
  13. [01:54:34] <tantek> hAtom allows you to achieve this. Publish once. Import/syndicate everywhere.
  14. [01:55:49] <tantek> Why not have the published data *be* the interoperable data?
  15. [01:55:55] <tantek> Why must they be separate?
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  19. [02:34:28] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
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  25. [03:16:57] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
  26. [03:41:47] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  27. [03:41:47] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
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  33. [04:38:13] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
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  39. [05:44:12] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3471 * Ed Summers * (+570) Tags -
  40. [05:56:13] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  41. [05:56:13] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  47. [06:47:49] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3472 * Myelin * (+1581) added marc/mods/dc note and example xhtml
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  52. [07:13:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  53. [07:13:14] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  59. [07:53:00] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  63. [09:19:51] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3473 * Myelin * (+269) MARC / MODS / Dublin Core -
  64. [09:50:04] * izo (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
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  68. [10:41:14] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3474 * DavidJanes * (-48) Fixed title rules
  69. [10:42:35] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3475 * DavidJanes * (-219) Removed FeedTitle and FeedPemalink
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  73. [12:35:09] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  75. [13:05:45] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  76. [13:05:45] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  77. [14:00:25] * izo (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
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  79. [14:08:32] <fuzzyBSc> I think I'm ready to vote that headers are not treated as hAtom titles at all.
  80. [14:10:13] <fuzzyBSc> My blog is essentially one feed. It has a header at the top, a nav bar on the left, and content everywhere else.
  81. [14:11:06] <fuzzyBSc> Unfortunately, the hAtom straddles the nav bar in the actual html. This means that the headers within my nav bar are being parsed as extra titles by my current hAtom2Atom.xsl
  82. [14:17:18] <fuzzyBSc> Of course the problem would re-emerge if multiple class=title elements appeared for various reasons in the document.
  83. [14:18:51] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
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  88. [14:44:24] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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  91. [14:59:47] <fuzzyBSc> Hrrm. Citation vs cataloging.
  92. [15:06:46] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  93. [15:06:46] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
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  111. [17:30:14] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  112. [17:30:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  115. [18:53:04] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=3476 * Galaga Gal * (+219) Examples in the wild -
  116. [18:57:21] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=3477 * Galaga Gal * (+1) Examples in the wild -
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  120. [19:20:48] <Tantek> good morning
  121. [19:20:56] <Tantek> we've been nominated for an award
  122. [19:20:58] <Tantek> http://www.kbcafe.com/iBLOGthere4iM/?guid=20051220093051
  123. [19:21:34] <Tantek> "Best Web 2.0 Blog"
  124. [19:21:47] <Tantek> #7
  125. [19:25:23] <Tantek> question #7 that is. ;)
  126. [19:57:49] <Frederic> evening
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  131. [20:18:30] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  137. [20:47:30] <mfbot> [[microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats&diff=0&oldid=3478 * Atamido * (+5) more thoughts on how microformats are different -
  138. [21:06:34] * Atamido (n=Atamido@user-0ccsqt9.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  139. [21:07:15] <Atamido> You might want to update the IRC link for chat.freenode.net http://www.microformats.org/discuss/
  140. [21:08:17] <tantek> Atamido, irc. is working for me right now
  141. [21:11:07] <Atamido> tantek:
  142. [21:11:13] <Atamido> http://freenode.net/news.shtml
  143. [21:11:17] <Atamido> Stupid paste...
  144. [21:11:55] <Atamido> "We believe that it will be helpful to make a gradual, permanent cutover of the main rotation hostname from irc.* to chat.* to make it somewhat less likely we'll experience future problems."
  145. [21:13:44] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  146. [21:15:27] <Atamido> Wanted to say that I enjoyed the hCard presentation at SXSW 2005.
  147. [21:17:04] <Atamido> Also, was wondering if there is a usenet interface for the mailing list.
  148. [21:17:06] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  149. [21:17:15] <Atamido> Gmane.org or something.
  150. [21:17:44] * tantekc (n=Tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. [21:23:26] * Atamido whistles.
  152. [21:23:35] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  153. [21:23:38] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
  154. [21:24:09] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  155. [21:24:59] <tantek> Atamido, thanks!
  156. [21:25:14] <tantek> hmm... don't know about a usenet interface
  157. [21:25:27] <Atamido> Is there any problem with me setting one up?
  158. [21:25:59] <Atamido> I find usenet readers to be far superiour to other methods of following threaded content.
  159. [21:26:39] <tantek> sad that that is still true
  160. [21:26:43] <tantek> but i can believe that
  161. [21:27:01] <tantek> sure, what is involved with setting that up?
  162. [21:27:14] <tantek> BTW, that freenode news also says: "If you're a client developer or you run an IRC network list site, please do not list chat.freenode.net, in your client or site without first emailing staff at freenode dot net to make sure it's okay to do so."
  163. [21:27:34] <tantek> so for now, we'll probably just stick with "irc." unless they change their messaging.
  164. [21:27:54] <Atamido> http://gmane.org/add.php
  165. [21:28:49] <Atamido> I wasn't sure exactly what they meant by "client developer", but I assumed it meant people developing IRC client software.
  166. [21:29:14] <Atamido> Like everything else, their news post isn't very clear. ;)
  167. [21:31:02] <Atamido> I would suggest choosing "Non-public (posting through Gmane allowed for list members)" or "Posting allowed (default)"
  168. [21:32:32] <Atamido> I have a question about "design patterns".
  169. [21:33:00] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit (Excess Flood)
  170. [21:34:27] <Atamido> Background: I am helping with the next major revision of some content management software. As part of this, I am helping them get semantic by moving from using tables for layout, using <b><font> for titles instead of <h2>, and other things.
  171. [21:35:25] <Atamido> Right now my two primary focuses are the news sections (I guess I can just call it a blog?) and the forums.
  172. [21:37:17] <Atamido> I need to make all of the changes now before it is released, because after it goes public, people will begin to template for it and it will no longer be practical to make major changes.
  173. [21:38:02] <Atamido> So I want to design to the future by implementing as many microformat design principles as possible right now.
  174. [21:39:44] <Atamido> This would have the end goal of possibly allowing more relevant searches by things like Google.
  175. [21:46:26] <tantek> Atamido, that sound very promising
  176. [21:46:54] <tantek> Since it sounds like a lot of your work will be frozen once you've completed it
  177. [21:47:07] <tantek> hence I recommend sticking to well known semantic XHTML practices
  178. [21:47:30] <tantek> and some of the "established" microformats
  179. [21:47:35] <tantek> that others have put through the paces
  180. [21:47:50] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  181. [21:47:54] <tantek> in general folks in the microformats community tend to be very evolutionary
  182. [21:48:01] <tantek> get some stuff working, and iterate
  183. [21:48:17] <Atamido> A few of the things are indicating who a post was made by, when they made that post, and possibly when the post was last edited.
  184. [21:48:36] <Atamido> I intend to use the Date stuff directly.
  185. [21:48:59] <Atamido> But, there don't seem to be any naming conventions for class names to follow.
  186. [21:49:34] <tantek> in general, best practices use semantic class names
  187. [21:49:36] <Atamido> For instance, I have two different dates, and only one of them is likely to be relevant to anyone outside of the site.
  188. [21:50:34] <tantek> but as far as picking the names, that's very much an art in the web design community
  189. [21:50:43] <Atamido> Such as "dtreview" from hReview.
  190. [21:50:54] <tantek> in the microformats community we try VERY hard to minimize the vocabulary, and reuse from established microformats
  191. [21:51:11] <tantek> hence hCard introduced no new names - it used names from vCard RFC2426
  192. [21:51:19] <tantek> similarly with hCalendar / iCalendar
  193. [21:51:28] <tantek> hReview reused names from both hCard and hCalendar
  194. [21:52:20] <tantek> "dtreviewed" was a new class name introduced to hReview using the pattern of "dtstart", "dtend", "dtstamp" from hCalendar which are actually from iCalendar RFC2445
  195. [21:52:28] <tantek> the principle here is: minimal invention
  196. [21:52:33] <tantek> don't invent new formats if at all possible
  197. [21:52:37] <Atamido> Yes, I wanted to follow the guidlines and aviod creating anything new as much as possible.
  198. [21:52:46] <tantek> don't invent new names if at all possible
  199. [21:52:56] <tantek> and don't even invent new ways of making names if at all possible
  200. [21:53:07] <tantek> now of course this can be quite restrictive
  201. [21:53:16] <tantek> and that's why it's just for microformats
  202. [21:53:38] * waglo (i=pa838n44@cogitateurs-agitateurs/waglo) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  203. [21:53:41] <tantek> if you're just trying to do good semantic web design, then you will likely pick better names according to whatever is the IA of yoursite.
  204. [21:53:46] <Atamido> It would be nice if all of the naming conventions were located in a single place. :)
  205. [21:53:53] <tantek> heh
  206. [21:54:06] <Atamido> I want to go with established standards.
  207. [21:54:08] * waglo (i=a65h1ran@cogitateurs-agitateurs/waglo) has joined #microformats
  208. [21:54:11] <tantek> right
  209. [21:54:17] <tantek> some microformats are "established"
  210. [21:54:22] <tantek> and others are still being discussed
  211. [21:54:35] <tantek> and there are some in between, like hReview
  212. [21:54:47] <tantek> only you can decide where on that spectrum is appropriate for your site
  213. [22:01:23] <Atamido> Are there any thoughts that come to mind for already established standards that would be relevant to me?
  214. [22:01:55] <Atamido> This was handy. http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-formats
  215. [22:01:57] <tantek> I think the most obvious one is to use hCards for the representations of authors/people
  216. [22:02:01] <tantek> cool
  217. [22:02:04] <Atamido> But I don't see any followup to it.
  218. [22:02:24] <tantek> hAtom is the followup
  219. [22:03:16] <_fil_> I have the same project as you atamido, for my CMS (www.spip.net)
  220. [22:04:01] <_fil_> I have for the moment implemented hCard, hAtom, hComment, and the relTag and translation link types
  221. [22:04:21] <_fil_> it makes clean and nice web pages :)
  222. [22:04:46] <Atamido> I plan on using hCard, but there are two limitations for it. 1. There doesn't seem to be a field for "username" instead of real names. 2. There still isn't a way to indicate this person is the author as opposed to just an informative name.
  223. [22:05:08] <_fil_> the author would be "me", I think
  224. [22:05:46] <_fil_> "me" is "me who's writing", in my understanding (not "me the webmaster)
  225. [22:07:46] <Atamido> Hmmmm... If I am the webmaster and have my contact info at the bottom of the page, it would be me. If that page also contains articles posted by others, they are not also "me" are they?
  226. [22:10:30] <_fil_> well, if the articles are enclosed in hAtom, then "me" is relative to the hAtom item
  227. [22:11:34] <_fil_> when inside an item, "me" would be meant as "the author of this item"; on a web page without context, it would be the author of the page (whatever that means)
  228. [22:11:54] <_fil_> but tantek is the boss here :)
  229. [22:12:01] <Atamido> Is "me" specified in hCard?
  230. [22:12:06] <_fil_> i'm just trying to cope with the ideas
  231. [22:14:41] <_fil_> it's � rel="me" �
  232. [22:15:07] <_fil_> and I have no idea if it's FOAF or hCard or any other proposed standard, now that you mention it
  233. [22:15:45] <Atamido> _fil_: Where is an example on your sit of using these microformats?
  234. [22:15:59] <_fil_> on localhost for the moment
  235. [22:16:26] <_fil_> on my test server at http://fil.rezo.net/spip/ there is an older version
  236. [22:16:39] <_fil_> (please don't publish this link)
  237. [22:17:17] <_fil_> sorry the home page is another test :)
  238. [22:17:19] <_fil_> try http://fil.rezo.net/spip/article.php3?id_article=28
  239. [22:18:16] <_fil_> or here
  240. [22:18:17] <_fil_> http://fil.rezo.net/spip/article.php3?id_article=24
  241. [22:18:24] <_fil_> in fact here i don't use "me"
  242. [22:18:55] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  243. [22:23:58] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  244. [22:25:26] <Atamido> Ah, you use class="url fn" which would not be right if it is a username instead of a firstname.
  245. [22:26:10] <Atamido> Perhaps something like class="url un" ?
  246. [22:28:22] <Atamido> Or class="url nickname"
  247. [22:31:43] <Atamido> Grrr... I'm going to have to read through parts of rfc2426.
  248. [22:41:34] <Atamido> Okay, FN is required, and NICKNAME could be added. But what if you only want the NICKNAME to be displayed? Do you mark information as both FN and NICKNAME, even though there may be another page that properly lists FN and NICKNAME seperately?
  249. [22:43:17] <Atamido> Type special note: The nickname is the descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing. It can also be used to specify a familiar form of a proper name specified by the FN or N types
  250. [22:46:37] * edsu is now known as rsinger
  251. [22:48:07] * rsinger is now known as djfiandah
  252. [22:50:10] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  253. [22:55:04] * djfiandah is now known as edsu
  254. [23:02:18] <_fil_> Atamido: I don't know enough about vCard to answer; it seems clear that microformats are not designed to encompass all situations, but only the most common ones
  255. [23:03:14] <_fil_> and you can of course freely extend them at will, or use the more complete xoxo methods to publish nice xhtml and yet structured data
  256. [23:08:43] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  257. [23:08:44] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  258. [23:08:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  259. [23:18:42] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  260. [23:18:42] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  261. [23:18:50] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Client Quit)
  262. [23:20:40] <tantek> Atamido, yes you could have the nickname as their fn if that is all you have
  263. [23:21:51] * karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-129.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  264. [23:21:51] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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