IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  20. [02:48:24] <fuzzyBSc> tantek: re your email: class=summary in hAtom currently means "content summary", and is a distinct atom element to both content and title elements. This would seem to be another clash.
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  23. [02:54:55] <fuzzyBSc> Morning, Atamido :)
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  35. [05:48:25] <Frederic> hello
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  42. [07:40:37] <fuzzyBSc> Morning, Frederic
  43. [08:21:20] <fuzzyBSc> Atamido: How badly out of date is <http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes>?
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  45. [09:36:37] <tantek> fuzzyBSc, perhaps check the history tab on that page
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  58. [12:34:31] <RobertBachmann> greetings
  59. [12:38:28] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: I've tried to change hAtom2Atom.xsl to do it's job without exslt:node-set but it didn't work. Althought exslt is not supported by every XSLT engines, most popular XSLT engines provide some kind of node-set() function. Have you done any changes to hAtom2Atom.xsl?
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  63. [13:26:34] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=3613 * Tantek * (+0)
  64. [13:30:34] <fuzzyBSc> Robert: Yes, I haven't been able to come up with a solution that supports both opacity and disambiguation but doesn't use node-set.
  65. [13:30:55] <fuzzyBSc> I haven't made any changes since the patch I sent your way that uses the exsl:node-set function.
  66. [13:32:27] <fuzzyBSc> tantek: Atamido wrote on microformats-discuss that the existing-classes wiki page was out of date. My question was really, "in what way?" rather than "when was it last updated?".
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  71. [14:15:50] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: I've installed lost of XSLT enginges (MSXSL, libxslt, saxon, xt, xalan-j, 4xslt, oracle xdk). I'm currently trying to get xmldiff (http://www.logilab.org/projects/xmldiff) working.
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  73. [14:41:12] <fuzzyBSc> Robert: Do you think trying to work without a node-set implementation is advisable based on this experience?
  74. [14:42:38] <RobertBachmann> No.
  75. [14:43:06] <fuzzyBSc> tantek: Do you have any thoughts on how title should be handled in hAtom? Presumably the hCard specification is pretty much set in concrete, now.
  76. [14:43:49] <fuzzyBSc> tantek: It is interesting to me that it seems parts of hReview could be superceeded by hAtom elements (reviewer -> author, for example) also. Could hReview be subject to change at this late stage?
  77. [14:44:56] <fuzzyBSc> Robert: My understanding is that xslt 2.0 will not require node-set. A variable can effectively be a document without any extra handling. Unfortunately, it is less widely implemented than exslt at this stage :-/
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  79. [14:49:33] <RobertBachmann> xsltproc/libxslt, saxon, xt, 4xslt, support exslt:node-set() out of the box. MSXSL and Oracle XDK have a function with the same name and functionality but in an other namespace. So using node-set is not a problem.
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  81. [15:25:21] <Atamido> fuzzyBSc: I wrote the existing classes page, but haven't finished it yet. There are a lot of missing classes, so it really needs to be updated. :p
  82. [15:32:02] <fuzzyBSc> Ahh :)
  83. [16:06:39] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: I've got xmldiff working. seems to be quite handy for running the tests.
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  85. [16:47:25] <tantek> fuzzyBSc, hReview has actually gotten built into a number of tools, so we'll probably want to avoid cosmetic changes like renaming properties
  86. [16:47:47] <tantek> also, note that *reviewer* is a very specific semantic
  87. [16:48:12] <tantek> moreso than author
  88. [16:48:29] <tantek> that being said, yes, there are changes we are looking into for hReview
  89. [16:48:46] <tantek> and they've been discussed on the hReview feedback page so far http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-feedback
  90. [16:49:08] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  91. [16:51:52] <fuzzyBSc> So long as the "of" part of author is clear it should be semantically equivalent, I would have thought. "author of this review" and "reviewer" are probably equivalent. The installed base argument is always compelling, though.
  92. [16:52:59] <fuzzyBSc> In fact, the hAtom terminology permits the conept of a "contributor to the review" which adds extra semantics that may be useful.
  93. [16:53:31] <fuzzyBSc> The review and the blog entry spaces overlap a fair bit.
  94. [16:54:10] <tantek> yes, in many ways, blog posts and reviews tend to overlap
  95. [16:55:22] <tantek> but i've actually noticed that most reviews in blog posts tend to be only *part* of the blog post, not the whole thing
  96. [16:58:09] * fuzzyBSc nods
  97. [16:58:35] <fuzzyBSc> I was just thinking that. I often see reviews for the last five movies someone has seen popping up on planets.
  98. [16:58:56] <tantek> right, people often put multiple reviews in one blog post
  99. [16:59:43] <fuzzyBSc> The hAtom specification for blog entries also seems a lot more structured. There is a clear separation of an opaque "content" and other hAtom elements. Nothing in the content is parsed (at least, not first time around).
  100. [17:11:01] <tantek> the problem of opacity is one that we've been barely dodging for a while now
  101. [17:11:24] <tantek> i'm actually very glad that hAtom has raised a concrete/practical example of requiring opacity
  102. [17:11:42] <tantek> as we've actually discussed it informally since around this past June
  103. [17:12:06] <tantek> specifically, the possibility of having a one-class-name microformat that was used to indicate opacity
  104. [17:12:16] <tantek> call it "mfo" for short
  105. [17:12:55] <tantek> you could use this on *any* root microformat element as a way of ensuring that wherever it happened to be embedded, anything parsing the stuff "above" it, wouldn't accidentally find something inside it
  106. [17:13:50] <tantek> e.g. you might put a <span class="vcard mfo"> deep inside a <span class="vevent">, and not want the categories/tags of the hCard accidentally parsed into the hCalendar event
  107. [17:14:18] <fuzzyBSc> I think the problem crops up whenever you have a container within a container.
  108. [17:14:48] <fuzzyBSc> You are defining a new context in which to understand the elemental classes and rel values, and that context is distinct from any containing context.
  109. [17:16:15] <fuzzyBSc> Whenever you have <span class="entry"> <span class="vcard">...</span> </span> you may want to ignore the vcard content in the entry parsing. I guess it only really matters when there is overlapping vocabulary.
  110. [17:16:49] <fuzzyBSc> "author" doesn't just mean "author". It means "author of the container I live in".
  111. [17:17:58] <fuzzyBSc> Unless there is an explicit way for the full assertion to be made contexts have to be careful about nesting within one another. A common term like mfo (or even "context", "microformat"?) would avoid forward-compatability problems of defining new containers.
  112. [17:18:44] <Atamido> I am working on an example traditional forum layout using the hAtom, so my questions will come from there.
  113. [17:19:15] <tantek> right
  114. [17:19:39] <tantek> so far the problem has been avoided because any compound use of microformats would presumably support earlier microformats
  115. [17:19:59] <tantek> e.g. an hCalendar parser would want to parse hCards explicitly, and thus could treat class="vcard" as a signal of "opacity"
  116. [17:20:10] <tantek> but forward-compatibility is exactly the problem
  117. [17:21:15] <tantek> when we come up with hFoobar which has a summary property for example, you should be able to embed an hFoobar into an hCalendar event, or an hReview, safely without having the hFoobar summary be treated as a summary for the event or review.
  118. [17:22:02] <tantek> in many ways, it's like saying "this thing here is an object, a layer of abstraction, and thus anything inside it should be treated as its properties, not as properties of the container"
  119. [17:22:30] <tantek> i think we have enough of a need now to start at least an examples page, documenting real world examples we are coming up with which present this problem
  120. [17:23:05] <tantek> then we can start a *-formats page, documenting various terms that previous formats have given to opaque containers, like "object", "container", etc.
  121. [17:24:09] <tantek> lacking any better name to call this concept, a few of us have been informally using "mfo" just as a working name for the purposes of discussion. we'd rather pick an actual classname which represented previous effort in this area though, based on what we come up with during the research phase.
  122. [17:24:19] <fuzzyBSc> Maybe the class name should just be "u" to indicate microformat :)
  123. [17:24:19] <fuzzyBSc> Something like class="u vcard", class="u hcalendar", class="u feed", etc.
  124. [17:24:39] <fuzzyBSc> If you see that class name while parsing and understand the class, just use it. If you don't, treat it as opaque.
  125. [17:26:19] <tantek> or perhaps "uf"?
  126. [17:26:36] <tantek> nonetheless, we should start with some wiki pages to document examples and formats
  127. [17:26:43] <tantek> we can worry about the name later :)
  128. [17:26:49] <fuzzyBSc> :)
  129. [17:27:18] <tantek> fuzzyBsc, Atamido, would you guys like to start the wiki pages for this?
  130. [17:27:23] <fuzzyBSc> One thing to consider before getting in too deep is that this may be a uf-specific problem. There may be less out there by way of example than you're used to.
  131. [17:28:00] <tantek> yes, these will be examples of real world use cases that need it
  132. [17:28:15] <tantek> rather than the traditional examples of real world use cases that demonstrate it
  133. [17:28:26] <tantek> it's a subtle distinction, and one that should be documented in the page
  134. [17:28:31] * fuzzyBSc nods. Ok.
  135. [17:29:06] <tantek> so the best ways i have found to think about this concept is as a layer of abstraction, or a wrapper, or a container
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  137. [17:29:49] <tantek> but all those don't seem to convey the meaning precisely either
  138. [17:30:13] <tantek> thus, lacking a better name, would anyone be opposed to using "mfo-" as the name of the concept for purpose of discussion?
  139. [17:30:34] <tantek> like I said, I have no particular desire to use "mfo" as the class name, and am confident that as a result of the discussion/analysis we will come up with a better name
  140. [17:30:57] <tantek> if there are no objections to mfo- then I will go ahead and create mfo-examples, mfo-formats
  141. [17:31:14] <fuzzyBSc> No objections, here.
  142. [17:31:45] <fuzzyBSc> Is that an acronym for anything? :)
  143. [17:31:55] <tantek> microformats opacity
  144. [17:31:57] <fuzzyBSc> Microformat opaque?
  145. [17:31:59] <fuzzyBSc> Ok :)
  146. [17:32:04] <tantek> or microformat object
  147. [17:32:13] <tantek> deliberately left unspecified :)
  148. [17:32:19] <fuzzyBSc> It works from a few angles, then :)
  149. [17:34:57] <fuzzyBSc> I'll just finish my train of thought and I'll have a look at what I can do. I'm migrating my blog to a vanity domain, or conducting stage one at least.
  150. [17:39:50] <Hixie> regarding opacity, one would hope that there are few enough microformats that name clashes can simply be avoided by design...
  151. [17:40:32] <mfbot> [[mfo-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples * Tantek * (+2171)
  152. [17:40:43] <mfbot> [[mfo-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mfo-examples&diff=0&oldid=3614 * Tantek * (-1) Contributors -
  153. [17:41:04] <tantek> Hixie, yes, that was certainly my thought from the beginning
  154. [17:41:18] <tantek> and the reason why I have held back on bringing this up as something we should bother with
  155. [17:41:25] <tantek> but clearly others have run into the same problem
  156. [17:41:39] <tantek> and now there are real examples with real content
  157. [17:42:09] <tantek> which IMHO is the necessary prerequisite before considering an explicit microformat
  158. [17:42:31] <tantek> but yes, in general the idea is to keep the number of total microformats to a very small number
  159. [17:42:32] <Hixie> too many microformats ;-)
  160. [17:42:42] <Hixie> time to start culling ;-)
  161. [17:43:07] <tantek> there are good arguments being made for microformats for resumes, listings (e.g. classifieds), and recipes for example
  162. [17:43:30] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: found a bug in hAtom2Atom.xsl
  163. [17:43:32] <tantek> also, an "abstraction" microformat feels fairly harmless, as it is only one class name
  164. [17:43:42] <Hixie> slippery slope :-)
  165. [17:43:48] <Hixie> what are the arguments for resumes?
  166. [17:44:14] <tantek> many people publish their resumes online, and presumably want them found and parsed properly
  167. [17:44:18] <tantek> as well as
  168. [17:44:24] <tantek> there are now resume aggregators out there
  169. [17:44:27] <tantek> er, search engines
  170. [17:44:30] <tantek> e.g. SimplyHired
  171. [17:44:36] <tantek> which would like to see this as well
  172. [17:44:47] * Hixie thought most resumes were in MS Word format
  173. [17:44:48] <tantek> thus there is practical publisher and indexer demand
  174. [17:45:00] <tantek> i.e. SimplyHired came to me and asked for this
  175. [17:45:14] <tantek> most resumes on the web tend to be HTML
  176. [17:45:22] <Hixie> well yeah, people are always asking for things
  177. [17:45:38] <Hixie> the mapping vendors are asking the svgwg for mapping-specific features
  178. [17:45:42] <Hixie> the key is to say no :-P
  179. [17:45:43] <tantek> Atamido, fuzzyBSc, I have created http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples please contribute your thoughts and build on what is there
  180. [17:45:57] <tantek> Hixie, you're right, the key is to in general say no
  181. [17:46:11] <tantek> and the microformats community has certainly said no far more often than yes
  182. [17:46:29] <Hixie> in the case of microformats it's less of an issue since it doesn't require anything of other UAs, at least
  183. [17:46:30] <tantek> though sometimes you have to first do some research before you can concretely determine the "no"
  184. [17:46:35] <Hixie> yup
  185. [17:46:41] <tantek> but that research is still useful
  186. [17:46:46] <tantek> as often the same requests come in multiple times
  187. [17:46:54] <tantek> and having that backing can be useful
  188. [17:46:59] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: The XHTML nodes inside of <summary> and <content> must be enclosed by <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">. The current code might generate different results.
  189. [17:47:20] <tantek> or perhaps the same request comes in but with new evidence/justification, and can demonstrated that it is new by pointing to the research and adding it
  190. [17:47:31] <tantek> one must assume that one does not always get things right the first time
  191. [17:47:46] <tantek> or rather, that a better theory/hypothesis can always be proposed
  192. [17:47:50] <tantek> per the scientific method
  193. [17:48:11] <Hixie> theory and hypothesis mean quite different things in science, but sure
  194. [17:50:04] <fuzzyBSc> Robert: I think it will produce the correct results. The xhtml namespace is used in the xsl, so namespace declarations should be inserted by the processor at appropriate places...
  195. [17:50:22] * Hixie finds a witch in the SVG Tiny 1.2 spec
  196. [17:50:30] <Hixie> (section 7.11, first sentence)
  197. [17:51:25] <fuzzyBSc> Hrmm.. I might not be able to get at this until tomorrow.
  198. [17:52:40] <tantek> Hixie, agreed
  199. [17:53:09] <tantek> both are iterated, that's my point
  200. [17:53:43] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: The problem isn't the namespace the current code would transform <p class="summary"> to <p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="summary"> but Atom specifies that it must be <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">. I'm currently working on a patch. Should be fixed within the next 10 minutes.
  201. [18:00:46] <fuzzyBSc> Ahh.. ok.
  202. [18:01:29] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3615 * Tim White * (+436) Types and Roles -
  203. [18:06:34] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: fixed & mailed
  204. [18:09:37] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  208. [18:11:36] <fuzzyBSc> Robert: Applied :)
  209. [18:12:53] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Client Quit)
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  211. [18:13:08] <RobertBachmann> fuzzyBSc: by the way: xmldiff works great the only problem it chockes on titles.output (because it isn't well-formed).
  212. [18:20:44] <fuzzyBSc> Ahh... the multiple feeds.
  213. [18:21:13] <fuzzyBSc> Anyway, I had better be off. I'll try to get something useful done tomorrow :)
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  219. [19:35:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  223. [20:00:49] <Atamido> tantek: Would it be overkill to include a class name to indicate that the element is a container element whose contents should not be parsed in relation to the parent's contents?
  224. [20:01:39] <Atamido> Like <div class="hatom mfo"><div class="vcard mfo">
  225. [20:02:36] <Atamido> Hmm, that seems borked if you use <div class="hatom mfo"><div class="vcard author mfo">
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  228. [20:49:43] <Atamido> http://files.commo.de/md-lite/mdforum/topic-combined-2.html
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  230. [21:39:20] <tantek> Atamido, re: your question, see the mfo-examples page where this is discussed
  231. [21:50:12] <Atamido> tantek: I don't think I was paying attention the first time I read that.
  232. [21:50:41] <Atamido> However, what about my example page where an element is both the vcard and the author?
  233. [21:59:50] <tantek> yes that is ok, because you are stating that the author property is essentially an entire hCard and must be parsed as such
  234. [22:03:07] <Frederic> Hello tantek
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  240. [22:25:37] <mfbot> [[cite-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-examples&diff=0&oldid=3616 * Tim White * (+3933) Example Citation Formats -
  241. [22:25:48] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  242. [22:26:50] <Atamido> mfbot: help
  243. [22:31:01] * Atamido (n=atamido@user-0ccsqt9.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  244. [22:35:44] <mfbot> [[citations in the wild]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/citations_in_the_wild * Tim White * (+27338)
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