IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:00:21] <othermaciej> you would want the triangle to be before "Subject 2"
[00:00:30] <othermaciej> but not, e.g., before "subpoint c"
[00:00:40] <othermaciej> I don't think there is any way to achieve this in CSS
[00:00:55] <othermaciej> because you can't style an element based on attributes of its children
[00:01:12] <othermaciej> I think this arguably makes xoxo's use of the compact attribute a bug (not to mention that compact is deprecated in html4)
[00:01:38] <KevinMarks> ihm
[00:01:56] <KevinMarks> how did chris do it, dynamically changing the classes?
[00:02:04] <othermaciej> he made up a bunch of extra classes
[00:02:13] * tara (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) Quit ()
[00:02:16] <othermaciej> he needed four custom classes that are not in the spec plus the compact attribute
[00:02:29] <othermaciej> I did it with just two custom classes and no use of compact
[00:03:18] <KevinMarks> but compact is how you persist it
[00:03:32] <othermaciej> I am saying that compact is a bad way to persist it
[00:03:42] <othermaciej> because then you need script to draw the right bullets
[00:03:51] <othermaciej> can't display properly with only a stylesheet, even for static display
[00:04:57] <othermaciej> it's not a CSS-friendly format as-is
[00:05:24] <tantek> othermaciej, you can float the triangle over
[00:05:39] <othermaciej> lemme try that then
[00:05:58] <tantek> you may have to give it a negative top margin to get it to be next to the <li> text
[00:06:13] <tantek> like margin-top:-1em or whatever is the height of the <li>
[00:06:21] <othermaciej> I was thinking of using before: content
[00:06:22] <tantek> in fact
[00:06:25] <othermaciej> and making it float: left
[00:06:29] <tantek> right
[00:06:32] <othermaciej> lemme try this
[00:06:40] <othermaciej> I could do it with 0 custom classes if this works
[00:06:42] <tantek> i think you can put negative margins on :before content as well
[00:06:44] <tantek> right
[00:06:58] <tantek> actually
[00:07:01] <tantek> rather than floating it
[00:07:11] <tantek> you may be able to do it with negative left and top margins
[00:07:27] <othermaciej> I think negative margins would have to assume how big the header is
[00:07:36] <tantek> only how tall
[00:07:43] <tantek> which you want uniform for a list anyway
[00:07:58] <tantek> think about modeling the finder's outline/list views
[00:08:23] <othermaciej> well, it would make the triangle look funny if someone decided to style just the headers and not leaf items
[00:09:13] <tantek> not sure what that means but ok
[00:14:31] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
[00:17:56] * kingryan (n=kingryan@138.202.222.85) has joined #microformats
[00:17:56] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[00:17:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
[00:21:08] <mfbot> [[aggregate-review-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/aggregate-review-examples * JohnPanzer * (+1732) Initial cut at listing a few examples
[00:22:54] <mfbot> [[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4447 * Tantek * (+32) See Also -
[00:24:05] <mfbot> [[aggregate-review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=aggregate-review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4448 * Tantek * (+39) See Also -
[00:31:12] <Enric> Tara (et. al.), I'm instigating a bar camp style event for the independent film community (introducing to using the net for media). It's curently listed at http://barcamp.org/ if you want to contribute
[00:31:39] <KevinMarks> tara left, but it soudns interesting
[00:31:59] <KevinMarks> which one?
[00:32:25] <Enric> ok, I'll email her. what's the reference to which one?
[00:32:37] <KevinMarks> ah, found it
[00:32:42] <Enric> ;)(
[00:32:45] <Enric> or ;)
[00:32:46] <KevinMarks> you shoudl get Jennifer
[00:33:00] <Enric> Yea, I'll send out a group email..thanks
[00:33:42] <KevinMarks> I could talk about stuff there
[00:33:49] <KevinMarks> and bring my film-making children
[00:33:50] <KevinMarks> ;)
[00:34:27] <othermaciej> tantek: it's very tricky to get this right
[00:35:05] <Enric> Sure, propose a demo on the wiki... ;)
[00:35:28] <tantek> Enric, you might want to use barcamp.pbwiki.org
[00:35:47] <Enric> yea..I'm off topic here...thanks
[00:35:58] <tantek> othermaciej, i believe you
[00:36:07] <othermaciej> I can't make ul[compact="compact"] { display: none; } because then its generated content won't show
[00:36:15] <factoryjoe> tantek: barcamp.org is now redirected
[00:36:20] <factoryjoe> the old site is at old.barcamp.org
[00:36:27] <othermaciej> and if I only make its kids display: none, I can't figure out how to make it take no layout space
[00:36:28] <Enric> yea, it is on pbwiki ;)
[00:36:30] <othermaciej> I have
[00:36:31] <factoryjoe> http://barcamp.org/IndieFilmCamp
[00:36:33] <tantek> oh cool! well done factoryjoe.
[00:36:34] <othermaciej> ul[compact="compact"], ol[compact="compact"] {
[00:36:34] <othermaciej> padding: 0px;
[00:36:35] <othermaciej> margin: 0px;
[00:36:35] <othermaciej> width: 0px;
[00:36:35] <othermaciej> height: 0px;
[00:36:37] <othermaciej> }
[00:36:39] <othermaciej> ul[compact="compact"] *, ol[compact="compact"] * {
[00:36:41] <othermaciej> display: none;
[00:36:42] <factoryjoe> tantek: thank david weekly!
[00:36:44] <othermaciej> }
[00:36:46] <othermaciej> but collapsed lists still take space
[00:36:49] <tantek> othermaciej, you can set the ul height to 0
[00:36:52] <tantek> :)
[00:36:59] <othermaciej> see CSS above: I did
[00:37:08] <othermaciej> I set padding, margin, and height all to 0
[00:37:13] <othermaciej> it still takes up a line
[00:37:25] <Enric> I'm thinking it would be good to eventually move to a seperate wiki page like indiiefilmcamp.org if it gets busy
[00:37:26] <tantek> overflow:hidden
[00:37:34] * limbo_ is now known as limbo_school
[00:37:35] <othermaciej> overflow: hidden will clip its generated content
[00:37:47] <othermaciej> (and doesn't make the line go away)
[00:37:50] <factoryjoe> Enric: go buy the domain now
[00:37:51] <tantek> oh
[00:37:53] <factoryjoe> (all three)
[00:38:02] <Enric> yea!lol
[00:38:04] <tantek> you may need to float the generated content to get rid of the line
[00:38:21] <tantek> or set the generated content to height:0 as well
[00:38:32] <othermaciej> I had to relative-position the generated content
[00:38:32] <tantek> and set the line-height on the ul to 0
[00:38:38] <othermaciej> I could try height: 0
[00:39:30] <Enric> I'm thinking getting .org and .com is enogh -- don't need .net, right?
[00:39:32] <othermaciej> floating it doesn't really put it in the right place
[00:39:55] <tantek> true
[00:40:06] <tantek> position:absolute might work though
[00:40:10] <tantek> that would also take it out of the flow
[00:40:21] <othermaciej> ahah, I got it
[00:40:23] <tantek> and you could position:relative the ul[compact]
[00:40:32] <tantek> in order to set a containing block context
[00:40:40] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[00:41:02] <othermaciej> ul[compact="compact"], ol[compact="compact"] {
[00:41:02] <othermaciej> width: 0px;
[00:41:03] <othermaciej> height: 0px;
[00:41:03] <othermaciej> }
[00:41:03] <othermaciej> ul[compact="compact"] *, ol[compact="compact"] * {
[00:41:04] <othermaciej> display: none;
[00:41:07] <othermaciej> }
[00:41:09] <othermaciej> li ol:before, li ul:before {
[00:41:12] <othermaciej> content: url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle_down.gif');
[00:41:15] <othermaciej> float: left;
[00:41:18] <othermaciej> height: 0px;
[00:41:20] <othermaciej> margin-top: -1em;
[00:41:23] <othermaciej> margin-left: -40px;
[00:41:25] <othermaciej> }
[00:41:28] <othermaciej> that works
[00:41:30] <othermaciej> ( also have ul, ol {
[00:41:33] <othermaciej> padding-left: 20px;
[00:41:35] <othermaciej> }
[00:41:38] <othermaciej> )
[00:41:52] <othermaciej> problem is, this only displays right in Safari
[00:41:59] <othermaciej> as firefox ignores negative top margins
[00:42:20] <othermaciej> and only does collapse-expand in firefox, because Safari doesn't handle live updates for attribute selectors (apparently? wtf?)
[00:43:34] <othermaciej> so now I have something extremely simple and clean that doesn't actually work in any browser
[00:44:07] <KevinMarks> hah
[00:44:22] <KevinMarks> so now you patch sfari and mozilla so it works?
[00:44:31] <othermaciej> I can figure out how to force a style recalc in Safari I'm sure
[00:44:42] <othermaciej> and I did not even try this in IE
[00:44:48] <othermaciej> dunno if IE does generated content
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[00:56:59] <KevinMarks> I assuem you have IE at work
[00:57:15] <tantek> ie no do gen con
[00:57:29] <othermaciej> I have Mac IE
[00:57:38] <tantek> neither does ie/mac
[00:57:41] <othermaciej> this will probably need a totally different IE code path I guess
[00:57:48] <othermaciej> like, say, any modern web site
[00:57:50] <tantek> i tried like 3-4 times to implement generated content back in the 1999-2001 days
[00:57:51] * othermaciej curses IE
[00:58:00] <tantek> and found so many bugs/ambiguities in the spec I gave up
[00:58:13] <tantek> or rather I reported all the problems I found with generated content to the CSS WG
[00:58:20] <tantek> and hence a lot of it eventually got fixed in CSS 2.1
[00:58:27] <tantek> but far too late for IE5/Mac obviously
[01:02:34] <tantek> othermaciej, for IE/Windows, you can get this to work via behavior if necessary
[01:03:20] <tantek> limbo - you really at school or are you around to answer some questions about your email about hReview from last July? (was regarding markup option for rated tags)
[01:05:13] <kingryan> eh, limbo's offline, but sitting right here
[01:05:22] <kingryan> you have a question for him, tantek?
[01:05:57] <tantek> heh
[01:05:57] <tantek> yes
[01:06:12] <kingryan> he only remembers the email vaguely
[01:06:18] * tantek looks it up
[01:07:07] <kingryan> limbo doesn't have his email available to him, so it might be better to talk about this later
[01:07:17] <tantek> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-July/000409.html
[01:07:39] <tantek> in short, eran was proposing an inversion of the markup for rated tags
[01:08:25] <tantek> instead of <a rel="tag" href="..."> ... 4</a>
[01:08:30] <tantek> he was proposing
[01:08:48] <tantek> essentially (i'm modifying slightly)
[01:09:05] <tantek> <a rel="tag" href="..."> ...</a> 4
[01:09:25] <kingryan> <-- Eran
[01:09:36] <tantek> hi Eran!
[01:09:45] <kingryan> hey :)
[01:09:47] <tantek> so I'm wondering - was there a specific use case that made you ask for this?
[01:09:47] <othermaciej> ok, I have a version that works in Safari
[01:09:53] <othermaciej> but top margins still broken in firefox
[01:10:05] <tantek> well done macie!
[01:10:15] <kingryan> it seemed more natural at the time
[01:10:15] <tantek> heh freudian slip
[01:10:31] <othermaciej> works with no special classes at all
[01:10:32] <kingryan> and seemed like we're taking reltag to places it wasnt supposed to go
[01:10:35] <tantek> just file bugs in bugzilla for the firefox folks
[01:10:57] <othermaciej> well, I'm trying to make a version that works around limitations of current shipping browsers
[01:11:01] <othermaciej> I'll file bugs too
[01:11:05] <othermaciej> I had to work around a Safari but
[01:11:20] <tantek> eran, i understand how it might feel more "natural"
[01:11:21] <othermaciej> with updating attribute selectors on DOM changes
[01:11:44] <tantek> maciej - yeah, that's quite challenging to do well - that is, reasonably optimally
[01:11:57] <othermaciej> the Safari workaround was pretty simple
[01:11:58] * tantek coded dynamic attribute selector support in Tasman v0.9 and later
[01:12:09] <othermaciej> the fix will also be pretty simple, I'll do that next
[01:12:16] <tantek> eran, i understand also only wanting to link the tag word
[01:12:19] <kingryan> my thinking was that this way, you have the tag applied to the rating
[01:12:29] <kingryan> as opposed to the tag applied to the whole review
[01:12:31] <tantek> from presentational perspective
[01:12:35] <othermaciej> hmm
[01:12:35] <kingryan> it seems clearer this way
[01:12:40] <othermaciej> doesn't work at all in Opera 9
[01:12:51] * tantek tries to hide his surprise
[01:12:53] <othermaciej> does Opera not do attribute selectors?
[01:13:11] <tantek> eran, the tag still applies to the item
[01:13:13] <othermaciej> the layout is right but it seems to be ignoring my [compact="compact"] rules
[01:13:18] <tantek> it's just that it is a *rated* tag
[01:13:24] <tantek> as opposed to a "plain" tag
[01:13:37] <kingryan> yeah... that kinda hand wave-ish
[01:13:54] <tantek> regardless
[01:14:04] <tantek> the markup flexibility is what is making me lean towards allowing this
[01:14:18] <tantek> because web designers often want more flexibility with their markup
[01:14:35] <tantek> and microformats should adapt to various different ways of marking up the same thing
[01:14:44] <kingryan> i think both are just as flexible
[01:14:48] <tantek> i was just wondering if there was a concrete example you tried
[01:14:56] <tantek> well i'm thinking of allowing *either*
[01:15:00] <kingryan> i see
[01:15:07] <kingryan> cool
[01:15:08] <tantek> since of course we want to maintain backward compat with hReview 0.2 reviews
[01:15:13] <kingryan> i didnt have any specific example
[01:15:16] <tantek> now that there are several tools that generate them
[01:15:16] <tantek> ok
[01:15:29] <tantek> it doesn't seem like that much more work to parse for both
[01:15:36] <kingryan> it just seemed to be better in a semantic sense.
[01:15:43] <kingryan> i guess not
[01:16:15] <kingryan> one of my oldest problems with rel-tag is lack of scope. which makes it kind of a pain to parse sometimes.
[01:16:25] <kingryan> so i wanted it to be clearer in this case.
[01:16:38] <kingryan> but as usual, i'm thinking from a coder's perspective :)
[01:18:17] <kingryan> anyways, back to your regularly scheduled ryan.
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[01:23:32] <othermaciej> I am really surprised at home many CSS constructs firefox does not seem to get
[01:23:40] <othermaciej> it does not appear to handle relative positioning of generated content
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[01:27:23] <othermaciej> tantek: well, I have just become highly disillusioned about the advanced CSS support of current browsers
[01:31:16] <othermaciej> tantek: if you hop on #webkit where there is a pastebot, I can show you what I came up with
[01:36:28] <othermaciej> tantek: nevermind, http://paste.lisp.org/display/16089
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[01:38:15] <othermaciej> I should point chris holland to it, maybe he can add some kinda decent fallback for other browsers
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[01:56:36] <tantek> othermaciej - did you get it working in FF also?
[02:00:50] <othermaciej> tantek: no - firefox doesn't appear to support negative top margins, so the layout is wrong (although functionally it works)
[02:01:17] <othermaciej> Opera nails the layout but behavior does not work due to apparent lack of attribute selector support
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[02:01:59] <othermaciej> this really would be way easier if collapsing were specified on the <li> instead of the contained list
[02:02:17] <othermaciej> (well, not that much easier, you would have to detect the case of no list children still)
[02:02:23] <tantek> except the <li> doesn't know if it can be collapsed or not
[02:02:36] <tantek> only the existence of the <ul> implies collapsability
[02:02:42] <tantek> right
[02:03:00] <tantek> that's the proof of why compactness belongs on the nested <ul> rather than on the <li>
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[02:04:17] <othermaciej> code is pretty clean though, the majority of the JS is the safari style update workaround and the code to do external behavior binding to the list elements
[02:04:32] <othermaciej> the meat of it is just toggling the compact attribute
[02:05:02] <tantek> yes, what I like best about it was that it works with the "plain" XOXO
[02:05:09] <tantek> no need to annotate the data itself
[02:05:32] <othermaciej> and it will do the right thing for static display even if you have no scripting
[02:05:41] <othermaciej> (but only in Safari, alas)
[02:07:39] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=4449 * Tantek * (+215) Sample Code -
[02:08:37] <tantek> maciej, how do you spell your last name again?
[02:09:07] <othermaciej> tantek: "Stachowiak"
[02:11:20] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-compact-sample * Tantek * (+2517)
[02:11:29] <tantek> ok, check that out maciej: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-compact-sample
[02:11:34] <tantek> and feel free to iterate on it!
[02:11:37] <tantek> thanks again!
[02:12:32] <tantek> if you could verify that that code works for you (I added some minor bits to make it valid XHTML 1.0), and add whatever liberal license you're ok with (e.g. CC-by-2.5, Apache 2.0)
[02:12:37] <tantek> that would be great
[02:14:15] <othermaciej> looks fine to me
[02:14:18] <othermaciej> re license, let me think
[02:14:28] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code for a sample of how to do that
[02:14:47] <othermaciej> what I am trying to decide if this is officially copyright Apple
[02:14:55] <othermaciej> in which case my choice of license would be more limited
[02:15:39] <othermaciej> I think it should be copyright me because it does not directly compete with any product that apple makes
[02:15:57] <tantek> yup
[02:16:10] <othermaciej> I think I like the Apple BSD license but I'd have to put it inline
[02:16:17] <othermaciej> it's basically BSD without advertising clause
[02:16:53] <tantek> sure
[02:17:13] <othermaciej> actually, I should use something that doesn't require any form of notice
[02:17:30] <tantek> if you want, give it to Ernie Prabakhar and i think he can take care of putting it somewhere on darwin
[02:17:31] <othermaciej> because I don't really care
[02:17:40] <tantek> the xoxo-sample-code method is quite short
[02:17:46] <tantek> since those licenses work via linking
[02:18:08] <othermaciej> http://paste.lisp.org/display/16093
[02:18:14] <othermaciej> this license requires an inline notice
[02:18:25] <othermaciej> but otherwise says about what I want to
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[02:18:30] <othermaciej> I don't like using CC licenses for code
[02:18:41] <tantek> yeah, i know they say not to, but i do it anyway
[02:18:43] <othermaciej> because they don't cover software-specific issues like disclaimer of warranty
[02:19:34] <tantek> i thought 2.5 handled all that
[02:19:46] <tantek> and the advice not to use it for code was just a political thing to placate the GPL folks
[02:19:54] <othermaciej> do they? I dunno
[02:20:41] <tantek> anyway, there is some argument as to whether "markup" is code or content
[02:20:50] <tantek> it's like content enough that i think using CC works
[02:21:02] <othermaciej> ok, it has a disclaimer of warranty but not the same one
[02:21:06] <othermaciej> JavaScript is definitely code
[02:21:15] <tantek> and apache works for content also
[02:21:24] <othermaciej> CSS and HTML are debatable
[02:21:51] <tantek> right, so i like to use both CC and Apache and just let people choose
[02:22:15] <tantek> hey btw - review folks on the channel
[02:22:24] <tantek> anyone know the kritx.com guy?
[02:22:45] <othermaciej> it doesn't cover source vs binary form either, and is much longer than the no-advertising BSD license
[02:23:04] <tantek> but you can just link to it, and the link is shorter than the BSD license
[02:24:20] <othermaciej> yeah but the actual conditions imposed are confusing
[02:24:36] <othermaciej> I'm trying to read the full version of cc-by and I don't really understand what it says
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[02:27:33] <tantek> maciej, feel free to ask in #cc
[02:28:43] <othermaciej> cc-by seems to require the author to specify the form of attribution to be used
[02:30:03] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
[02:30:16] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4450 * Tantek * (+134) Examples in the wild -
[02:30:32] <tantek> maciej, not AFAIK
[02:30:43] <tantek> i believe you can leave that unspecified and thus leave it up to the user
[02:30:52] <othermaciej> I'll change the Apple BSD to allow linking to the license and give people choice of that or cc-by
[02:30:58] <tantek> nice
[02:31:09] <othermaciej> the cc-by link says "Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor."
[02:31:21] <othermaciej> and the full license text says something equivalent using many more words
[02:31:25] <tantek> so if the author or licensor doesn't specify a manner, then presumably you're done :)
[02:31:41] <othermaciej> making it effectively cc-none :-)
[02:31:47] <tantek> but like i said, you should ask it in #cc
[02:31:56] <tantek> those folks know more about this me
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[02:33:38] <othermaciej> I can't figure out how to create a new account on the wiki
[02:33:55] <tantek> see FAQ item #1 re: wiki
[02:34:53] <othermaciej> ah, need to capitalize
[02:35:08] <othermaciej> it would be nice if the error message said that
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[02:35:42] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/simple-bsd-license * Maciej * (+1242)
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[02:35:58] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4451 * Maciej * (+2)
[02:36:09] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4452 * Maciej * (-1)
[02:36:18] <othermaciej> (ugh, sorry for the edit flurry)
[02:36:24] <othermaciej> hard to figure out how to format it right
[02:36:59] <tantek> no problm
[02:37:10] <tantek> maciej, the wiki login thing is kind of a test of sorts
[02:37:21] <tantek> you would be surprised at how many spammers it keeps out who can't figure it out :)
[02:37:39] <tantek> and if you're legit, then you ask here or on the mailing list
[02:37:41] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4453 * Maciej * (+75)
[02:38:24] <othermaciej> ok, how can I put in numbering and keep the wiki from listifying?
[02:39:02] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4454 * Maciej * (-2)
[02:40:23] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4455 * Maciej * (-2)
[02:40:26] <othermaciej> ok got it
[02:40:30] <othermaciej> http://microformats.org/wiki/simple-bsd-license
[02:40:54] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4456 * Tantek * (-7)
[02:41:03] <tantek> just a little cleanup
[02:41:18] <tantek> ahem, did you mean to leave in the reference to APPLE COMPUTER ?
[02:41:19] <othermaciej> I see you use a wiki at SubEthaEdit speed
[02:41:27] <othermaciej> no I didn't
[02:41:28] <tantek> MediaWiki rocks
[02:41:44] <tantek> you can even edit MediaWikis on a BlackBerry 8700c quite quickly
[02:42:00] <mfbot> [[simple-bsd-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=simple-bsd-license&diff=0&oldid=4457 * Maciej * (-10)
[02:42:03] <othermaciej> fixed
[02:42:15] <tantek> nice
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[02:43:21] <tantek> ok, time to go home
[02:43:27] <tantek> bbiab
[02:43:32] <tantek> thanks again folks
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[02:44:01] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4458 * Maciej * (+211) XOXO 'compact' sample -
[02:45:12] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4459 * Maciej * (+0) XOXO 'compact' sample -
[02:46:51] <tantek> (btw, maciej, mfbot is what allows subethaedit-speed editing of the wiki. when we're all in here, we can watch each other edit the wiki, and make follow-up changes accordingly)
[02:47:08] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4460 * Maciej * (+279) Markup Sample -
[02:47:34] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4461 * Maciej * (+1) Markup Sample -
[02:48:05] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4462 * Maciej * (+1) Markup Sample -
[02:48:12] <othermaciej> there we go
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[02:48:15] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[02:48:22] <tantek> btw, i believe for CC, you can put "Some Rights Reserved"
[02:48:26] <othermaciej> should I mention that this only works in Safari currently?
[02:48:29] <tantek> sure
[02:48:36] <tantek> perhaps outside the markup sample
[02:48:42] <tantek> go ahead and put a notes section
[02:48:57] <tantek> and document any such notes/info/warnings off the top of your head
[02:48:59] <othermaciej> where would I put that? no idea how to add a notes section
[02:49:07] <tantek> edit the whole page
[02:49:20] <tantek> and just copy/paste the wiki-markup for the other headings
[02:49:34] <tantek> feel free to link to the mozilla bugzilla bugs that you ran into as well
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[02:52:31] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4463 * Maciej * (+501)
[02:52:43] <othermaciej> I'll look for bugs later
[02:52:50] <othermaciej> gotta file / fix webkit bugs first
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[03:31:09] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[03:43:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[03:49:08] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4464 * Tantek * (+59) Notes -
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[07:10:50] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4465 * Tantek * (+796) Add Eran's suggestion to allow for the tag inside a rating markup variant for rated tags
[07:11:09] <TantekC> somehow I doubt limbo_school is still in school
[07:15:31] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4466 * Tantek * (+116) added tags inside ratings feature variant
[07:28:41] <Frederic> Hi TantekC
[07:29:38] <TantekC> hello
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[08:09:23] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[08:46:10] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4467 * Tantek * (+158) added informative improvements
[08:47:01] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4468 * Tantek * (+1) hReview 0.3 thoughts -
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[09:04:50] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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[09:13:11] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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[09:36:18] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4469 * Tantek * (+325) rated tags and normal tags.
[09:39:09] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4470 * Tantek * (+89) Implementations -
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[09:57:41] <mfbot> [[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=4471 * Kevin Marks * (+3618) xoxo.py - update to 0.9 version with better encoding support and dictionary handling
[10:00:47] <mfbot> [[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=0&oldid=4472 * Kevin Marks * (+3646) testxoxo.py - update testcases for encoding and dictionaries
[10:03:08] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4473 * Tantek * (+680) noted utility of having author/reviewer information inherited from outside context
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[14:34:12] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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[14:40:45] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[15:06:48] <dglazkov> anybody got examples of nice poetry markup handy?
[15:06:57] <dglazkov> not urgent
[15:07:03] <bkdelong> Poetry markup?
[15:07:06] <bkdelong> interesting...
[15:07:27] <dglazkov> yeah, I was teaching a class yesterday and the question was raised
[15:07:36] <dglazkov> good question, IMHO
[15:08:46] <bkdelong> Definitely....Are you thinking semantics like type of poem and then components of the poem/>
[15:08:48] <bkdelong> ?
[15:08:56] <dglazkov> yup.
[15:09:02] <dglazkov> and verses
[15:09:06] <dglazkov> and choruses
[15:09:13] <dglazkov> and intentional breaks
[15:10:03] <dglazkov> http://jhdesigns.wordpress.com/
[15:10:09] <dglazkov> this is the perpetrator
[15:14:24] <bkdelong> http://www.libraries.rutgers.edu/~grmurphy/cgi2pat_help/dtd/epd/ALL-ELEM.html
[15:14:47] <bkdelong> rather, http://www.libraries.rutgers.edu/~grmurphy/cgi2pat_help/dtd/epd/DTD-HOME.html
[15:14:55] <bewest|work> wow
[15:15:09] <bkdelong> what?
[15:15:12] <dglazkov> yikes!
[15:15:22] <bkdelong> http://xml.coverpages.org/chadsamp.html
[15:16:15] <dglazkov> but good research, methinks. I had no idea there could be so many different parts in poetry.
[15:16:23] * dglazkov doesn't read poetry
[15:16:27] * dglazkov writes poetry
[15:16:38] <bkdelong> gotcha
[15:16:44] <dglazkov> :)
[15:16:50] <bkdelong> Well, if you're going to be thorough.... ;)
[15:17:41] <dglazkov> I think anal is the proper word :)
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[15:18:25] <dglazkov> thanks for the link, bkdelong. This is good chew-on-it material
[15:20:56] <bkdelong> np. I like to help.
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[15:39:30] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda and brian suda of X2V fame
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[15:53:45] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[16:08:35] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
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[16:36:49] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
[16:36:57] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
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[16:41:57] <RobertBachmann> tantek already implemented hAtom in your blogging system?
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[16:44:26] * tantek is still working on his blogging/site system rewrite
[16:44:43] <tantek> but yes, it will have hAtom
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[16:45:01] <RobertBachmann> cool
[16:46:34] <RobertBachmann> I'm currently working on a little template system myself: XHTML -> XSLT which adds headers, footers and the nav bar -> XHTML
[16:50:22] <RobertBachmann> of course it will also support some hAtom black magic.
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[17:05:08] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
[17:06:09] <tantek> no black magic involved robert ;)
[17:07:00] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4474 * Tantek * (+25) iterate on current microformats -
[17:09:16] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4475 * Tantek * (-77) introduction / community -
[17:10:07] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4476 * Tantek * (+4) create microformats wiki pages for -
[17:10:18] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4477 * Tantek * (+0) create microformats wiki pages for -
[17:12:29] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4478 * Tantek * (-4) help with new microformat requests -
[17:15:40] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4479 * Tantek * (+176) Chris Messina -
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[17:39:02] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4480 * Brian * (+186) New Person 2 -
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[18:09:57] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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[19:11:45] <trovster> I'm looking at hcalendar, is there not a "title" only a "summary?
[19:14:02] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[19:14:02] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[19:14:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
[19:14:16] <tantek> trovster, correct
[19:14:30] <tantek> the summary is effectively used as the title
[19:15:01] <trovster> What's the title of dtstart?
[19:17:23] <trovster> From a date+time how would I convert it to the dtstart title string?
[19:18:46] <trovster> 20060204T150000Z looks right I think
[19:19:29] <kingryan> trovster, its just an iso date format
[19:19:40] <trovster> With a T and Z thrown in ;)
[19:19:54] <kingryan> not neccessarily
[19:20:00] <kingryan> Z just stands for UTC time
[19:20:11] <trovster> Oh, what's GMT?
[19:20:22] <kingryan> same difference, right?
[19:20:35] <tantek> trovster ISO8601
[19:20:40] <trovster> Not exactly, GMT has day-light savings.
[19:20:54] <kingryan> ah, yes
[19:21:15] <kingryan> anyway, with hcalendar we use offsets, rather than proper timezones
[19:21:20] <kingryan> btw, see http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
[19:21:59] <tantek> offsets are less vulnerable to the whims of governments
[19:22:02] <trovster> http://pastebin.com/526102 is what I've just done, seem correct?
[19:23:56] <kingryan> looks good to me
[19:24:39] <dmose> tantek: how are offsets less vulnerable to the whims of governments?
[19:24:55] <dmose> with timezones, you can update events post facto
[19:25:00] <tantek> wrong question. how are timezones more vulnerable to the whims of governments?
[19:25:11] <dmose> with offsets you can't know whether an event has been properly updated
[19:25:12] <tantek> answer: timezones are set by governments.
[19:25:23] <dmose> also the wrong question
[19:25:32] <tantek> offsets are not set by governments
[19:26:03] <dmose> are there any cases where offsets are used that are not motivated by timezones?
[19:27:28] <tantek> offsets are the best of having the isodate be inspectable/verifiable and knowing an actual absolute datetime that the event will occur / has occured (as opposed to depending on a timezone which is subject to legislative alteration/drift)
[19:27:54] <dmose> but that's exactly why you want a timezone
[19:28:02] <dmose> so that you cope with legislative alteration/drift
[19:28:13] <dmose> with offsets, you can't know if that drift happens
[19:28:32] <dmose> and if the event was intended to be in a timezone that didn't change and doesn't need to be adjusted
[19:28:34] <tantek> the drift is irrelvant to offsets, that's the point
[19:28:37] <tantek> that's a *good* thing
[19:28:42] <trovster> <dd class="location">The Quadrant, Wolverhampton</dd> -- would I be able to add geo to that too?
[19:28:47] <dmose> it's not a good thing
[19:29:08] <dmose> or if the event was intended to be in a timezone that did change
[19:29:15] <dmose> and therefore doesn't need to be updated
[19:29:17] <tantek> timezones only cause more problems and complexity
[19:29:24] <tantek> that's the point
[19:29:29] <tantek> we have simplified them out of the spec
[19:29:34] <dmose> well, the real world operates on timezones
[19:29:43] <dmose> you've simplified them out of the spec by information loss
[19:29:58] <dmose> the fact that they're complex sucks, you're right
[19:30:09] <dmose> but now you've got a spec that specifically less useful
[19:30:11] <kingryan> dmose, another problem is that there's no authority on timezones
[19:30:13] <dmose> s/that/that's/
[19:30:18] <dmose> kingryan: we're working on that
[19:30:24] <dmose> kingryan: see www.calconnect.org
[19:30:36] <dmose> there's a TC-TIMEZONE which is drafting proposals about that very thing
[19:30:38] <kingryan> that'd be a great helpl
[19:30:38] <tantek> trovster, yes, you can add
[19:30:42] <tantek> location to that
[19:30:45] <tantek> adr in particular
[19:30:57] * bergie (n=bergie@proton.idasact.org.za) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[19:31:04] <trovster> tantek: Not without adding the Long/Lat in to the HTML, though?
[19:31:14] <tantek> trovster, that's geo
[19:31:17] <tantek> you're confusing them
[19:31:22] <trovster> Yeh.
[19:31:28] <trovster> class="location adr"> then
[19:31:29] <dmose> the hope is to eventually have an IANA-run timezone registry
[19:31:35] <dmose> as well as a timezone service
[19:31:38] <tantek> dmose, the fact that they are complex means they get left out
[19:31:41] <tantek> of microformats
[19:31:46] <tantek> because in practice you don't need them much
[19:31:52] <dmose> tantek: that's fair i suppose
[19:31:55] <tantek> in practice offsets work just fine
[19:32:14] <tantek> and in particular they are certainly not worth the cost of complexity that they impose
[19:32:27] <dmose> perhaps not
[19:32:47] <dmose> hopefully once a good, queryable timezone service exists, that complexity will go down significantly
[19:32:52] <tantek> they are certainly not worth the amount of person hours spent discussing/arguing/debating them
[19:32:59] <tantek> over the history of various IETF lists etc.
[19:33:01] <dmose> heh
[19:33:35] <tantek> i mean seriously, i think someone needs to do an economic study that on how much time the whole "timezone" notion wastes worldwide for folks in general
[19:33:54] <trovster> http://pastebin.com/526122 ok then, could that be improved?
[19:33:58] <dmose> well, i think a lot of it is the legislative drift problem
[19:34:03] <dmose> which is, you know, people being human
[19:34:07] <tantek> a "good queryable timezone service" would depend on a centralized solution which is also bad
[19:34:08] <trovster> oops, remove the class="latitude"!
[19:34:23] <dmose> tantek: interesting theory
[19:34:37] <dmose> tantek: care to elaborate?
[19:34:40] <tantek> (from the perspective of microformats)
[19:35:21] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#the_microformats_principles
[19:35:24] <tantek> in particular
[19:35:34] <tantek> "enable and encourage decentralized and distributed development, content, services"
[19:35:54] <dmose> well, there are various ways that timezone services are being considered
[19:36:06] <dmose> dns and ntp are a couple of possible analogies
[19:36:39] * tantek wonders what would happen if governments abdicated "official" timezones and let the free market sort it out
[19:37:07] <tantek> dmose, right
[19:37:13] <dmose> what would that mean?
[19:37:31] <tantek> it would mean revoking the legislation that sets timezones
[19:37:38] <dmose> well, right
[19:37:41] <dmose> but i mean the other part
[19:37:45] <dmose> about letting the free market sort it out
[19:37:54] <dmose> wouldn't it just make an already messy situation even messier?
[19:38:13] <dmose> ie you'd have even more entities claiming that you should follow their timing schemes
[19:38:25] <tantek> it might be messy for a while
[19:38:29] <tantek> but i have a feeling it would sort itself out
[19:38:37] <dmose> could be
[19:38:38] <tantek> because economic interests would dictate agreeing upon time
[19:38:54] <tantek> therefore there is no particular reason to have it set by the government
[19:39:01] <kingryan> tantek, gov't's will have to set time policy for themselves
[19:39:10] <kingryan> for the use of the govt itself
[19:39:23] <kingryan> which will be de facto for everyone else
[19:39:25] <tantek> but that's very different from setting it for the farmers
[19:39:41] <kingryan> I'm just saying that everyone will still follow the govts
[19:39:51] <tantek> small steps kingryan, small steps
[19:40:34] <dmose> how would this small step help, if one assumes that kingryan is correct
[19:40:38] * tantek notes that the military communicates time in Zulu
[19:40:41] <kingryan> I don't think removing govt's from the picture would make things better
[19:40:41] <tantek> Z
[19:40:56] <tantek> therefore, if you follow that, then everyone would end up using UTC
[19:41:08] <kingryan> of course, they are a worldwide operation and have strong discipline
[19:41:23] <kingryan> most people are worldwide and dont' have strong discipline
[19:41:34] * dmose remembers when the us tried to go metric
[19:41:39] <tantek> kingryan, most of the time, removing the govt from the picture makes things operate more efficiently and fairly
[19:42:02] <dmose> that's an awfully broad generalization
[19:42:11] <kingryan> dmose++
[19:42:20] <tantek> hey, i said "most" not "all" :)
[19:42:28] <dmose> heh
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[19:43:38] <kingryan> I wish someone (maybe you are doing this, dmose) would at least have an authoritative, descriptive resource for timezone data
[19:43:39] * cee-dub_ruby_mad is now known as cee-dub
[19:43:57] <kingryan> seriously, doesn't the UN have to deal with this?
[19:44:06] <kingryan> and every major govt?
[19:44:11] <dmose> so, the closest thing right now is "olsen database"
[19:44:15] <tantek> kingryan, it's a major rathole
[19:44:29] <tantek> (the whole timezone data problem)
[19:44:35] <trovster> tantek: Did you check out the finished vevent?
[19:44:41] <tantek> dmose is right, closest thing is the olsen database
[19:44:43] <dmose> the idea is that the timezone registry/service may eventually become a standardized way to do with that
[19:44:43] <kingryan> yeah, but every rathole has rats, no?
[19:44:49] <kingryan> I'm saying, let's ask the rats
[19:44:59] <tantek> no, they often leave the holes behind
[19:44:59] <dmose> rathole or not, it's the way the real world models its time data
[19:45:11] <tantek> it's one way
[19:45:24] * dmose shrugs
[19:45:40] <tantek> offsets definitely solve the 80/20 case, and much more simply
[19:45:41] <dmose> it's a way that is used exclusively by an exceedingly large number of people in the world
[19:46:01] <Atamido> I'm still not satisfied with how ratings work in hReview, but unfortunately I have nothing further to add to the discussion.
[19:46:47] <dmose> unfortunately, calendaring apps that only lose data 20% of the time aren't generally viewed as acceptable
[19:46:58] * tantek would like to try
[19:47:11] * cee-dub is now known as chucknorris
[19:47:30] * tantek is considering putting timezone discussions on the list of ratholes to be avoided
[19:47:36] <dmose> heh
[19:48:01] <tantek> dmose, you're making all sorts of assumptions with that "alendaring apps that only lose data 20% of the time" statement
[19:48:04] * Atamido likes the current date-design-pattern
[19:48:10] <dmose> that's true
[19:48:14] <dmose> it was a rather cavalier statement
[19:48:16] <tantek> the point is, you leave it to the UI to solve the problem
[19:48:23] <tantek> rather than trying to do it in the data format
[19:48:37] <tantek> UIs are much better at solving such problems
[19:48:43] * chucknorris is now known as cee-dub
[19:48:48] <dmose> if you don't have sufficient information in the data format, the ui can't help you
[19:49:00] <tantek> not true
[19:49:03] <tantek> there is always more info in the app
[19:49:05] <tantek> e.g. preferences
[19:49:09] <tantek> that dictate overall behavior
[19:49:19] <tantek> that dictate *context* for any/all data
[19:49:20] <dmose> we get back to dataloss
[19:49:23] <tantek> for display purposes etc.
[19:49:30] <dmose> if i'm getting event data from the web
[19:49:32] <tantek> i don't believe there is any dataloss there
[19:49:46] <dmose> i need to know the intent of the event organizer
[19:49:48] <tantek> using an offset is provably no more lossful than using Z
[19:49:49] <tantek> done
[19:50:07] <dmose> sure, agreed that it's no more lossful than using Z
[19:50:17] <tantek> whereas i would argue that using Timezones is where you get drift/loss over time
[19:50:19] <dmose> there is a set of things that can't be expressed that way, however
[19:50:21] <tantek> since timezones change
[19:50:25] <tantek> and software doesn't get updated
[19:50:31] <tantek> no
[19:50:34] <tantek> everything can be expressed in Z
[19:50:45] <tantek> thus offsets are merely a more readable version
[19:51:12] <dmose> does hCalendar support recurrence?
[19:51:40] <tantek> in fact, i bet the complexity of timezones actually introducees MORE bugs into software which thus cause dataloss etc. than not
[19:51:43] <dmose> ie RRULE type stuff
[19:51:50] <tantek> that's the problem with implementing complexity
[19:51:57] <tantek> it's always got a bigger cost than you think
[19:52:02] <dmose> sure, i agree that in a world that's not complex timezones wouldn't exist
[19:52:06] <dmose> but that's not this world
[19:52:08] <tantek> oftentime outweighing ANY benefits you think you are getting
[19:52:36] <tantek> trovster, btw
[19:52:43] <tantek> your event is close but needs a few tweaks
[19:52:47] <trovster> OK.
[19:52:55] <tantek> for one, try running the markup through the validator
[19:52:59] <tantek> http://validator.w3.org
[19:53:07] <tantek> it will catch things like duplicate class attributes
[19:53:24] <tantek> i don't think you meant to use "latitude"
[19:53:27] <Atamido> I'm confused, what is wrong with just using the current date-design-pattern in hCal?
[19:53:28] <trovster> Yes...
[19:53:29] <dmose> it's not clear to me whether hCalendar is intended to support recurring events
[19:53:38] <dmose> (eg every monday at 11:00 pm)
[19:53:39] <trovster> [19:34:05] <trovster> oops, remove the class="latitude"!
[19:53:43] <dmose> is it?
[19:53:50] <tantek> dmose, we're looking to see if anyone uses them in *practice* on the web
[19:53:55] <tantek> so far, haven't seen much
[19:54:00] <tantek> in fact, i can't think of an example
[19:54:01] <dmose> sounds reasonable
[19:54:09] <dmose> that is the key to the zulu question
[19:54:17] <dmose> supporting recurring events requires timezones
[19:54:21] <dmose> you can't express everything in zulu
[19:54:28] <tantek> right, i've followed that discussion in calsify
[19:54:50] <tantek> the problem is actually assuming you can codify into software/data what is essentially a human agreement
[19:54:58] <tantek> that of the repeating event
[19:55:06] <tantek> which starts falling apart when timezones change
[19:55:20] <tantek> and when there is daylightsavings changes
[19:55:29] <tantek> humans know to "error correct' intuitively
[19:55:30] <dmose> that's specifically the point of timezones
[19:55:35] <tantek> machines/formats/software doesn't
[19:55:40] <tantek> and that's the problem
[19:55:42] <dmose> that they give the application the data it needs to keep recurrence up to date
[19:55:52] <tantek> trying to shove that down into the software doesn't solve the problem
[19:55:53] <dmose> so for it to be useful, you do need a timezone service
[19:56:02] <tantek> it merely hides it / postpones it until the software breaks
[19:56:13] * dmose blinks
[19:56:18] * Atamido waves about for an answer.
[19:56:47] * tantek wonders what would happen t" wierall human productivity if there were fewer recurring meetings
[19:57:05] <tantek> perhaps it is not so bad to make it harder to schedule recurring meetings
[19:57:11] <dmose> once again, we're wandering away from the real world
[19:57:29] <tantek> not really
[19:57:32] <tantek> our real world is the web
[19:57:37] <tantek> we draw our examples from there
[19:57:47] <tantek> and we base our designs on those examples
[19:58:00] <tantek> and there is nothing saying we can't nudge the non-web world in better directions
[19:58:05] <dmose> fine principles
[19:58:42] <tantek> IIRC, RRULE is dropped from iCal-basic
[19:58:50] <tantek> therefore there is a good chance we will drop it from hCalendar
[19:59:05] <dmose> it's not clear that anyone is actually interested in ical-basic
[19:59:06] <tantek> we may drop it anyway, since there is little (if any) use of recurring meetings on the web
[19:59:39] <dmose> yeah, that's probably sensible
[19:59:39] <tantek> in practice, event web sites like EVDB and Upcoming found that there were numerous human/interface problems with recurring meetings and I believe they don't even support them in their UIs
[20:00:01] <LTjake> http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6369 # FYI, opensearch 1.1/atom + xoxo from a lucene web service.
[20:00:02] <tantek> like I said, what would happen to overall human productivity if there were fewer recurring meetings?
[20:00:12] <tantek> or if systems actively discouraged the creation of recurring meetings?
[20:00:19] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
[20:00:19] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
[20:00:29] <Atamido> I can't figure out how to create reoccuring meetings in Outlook that only reoccur for a certain amount of time.
[20:00:52] <tantek> yeah, exactly. recurrence user interfaces SUCK.
[20:01:16] <tantek> Atamido, what was your question?
[20:01:34] <Atamido> I'm guessing that reoccurrance is way to difficult of a thing to tackle in hCal until there are concrete examples on the web.
[20:01:58] <Atamido> What is wrong with using the current date-design-pattern in hCal?
[20:02:07] <Atamido> tantek: ^
[20:03:41] <dglazkov> recurrence must be driven by organizer. After a meeting is over, you get a reminder: would you like to schedule another recurrence of the mtg?
[20:04:04] <tantek> dglazkov - right, recurrence is more of a protocol (between humans) problem than a data format problem
[20:04:13] <tantek> Atamido, nothing AFAIK
[20:04:16] <dglazkov> I like it.
[20:04:48] <Atamido> tantek: Then what is the timezone question?
[20:05:00] <tantek> Atamido, don't ask. :)
[20:05:11] <Atamido> :P
[20:05:28] <tantek> or rather, the timezone question is a big discussion rathole that it is recommended that you avoid.
[20:05:33] <dglazkov> what about the abbr title controversy?
[20:05:45] <tantek> dglazkov - what controversy?
[20:05:56] <tantek> see archives for refutation of title misconceptions
[20:06:04] <tantek> search for something like we05
[20:06:22] <tantek> there was a presentation there that pretty much refuted all the chicken-littling
[20:09:13] <dglazkov> So, this:http://www.gerd-riesselmann.net/archives/2005/12/microformats-ignoring-user-experiences
[20:09:25] <dglazkov> has been responded to?
[20:09:25] <tantek> yeah, that nonsense
[20:09:27] <briansuda> i have just caught-up on the conversation about RRULE
[20:09:43] <tantek> dglazkov - no, it is not clear it is deserving of a response
[20:10:00] <briansuda> while i agree that the RRULE is pretty complex and silly, but i think there MIGHT be a merit because if the EXRULE
[20:10:24] * dglazkov goes to look through archives
[20:10:48] <briansuda> I have been trying to make my Resume into hResume, i have worked at the same job two different dates, so i would need an EXRULE for the time i was away
[20:10:56] <kingryan> dglazkov, I responded to that post
[20:11:05] <kingryan> and there was a rebuttal, but not well thought out
[20:11:59] <dglazkov> I wouldn't call it a rebuttal. More of a "what? me? I ain't doin' nuthin'"
[20:12:26] <tantek> briansuda, or you could use an RDATE I think
[20:12:52] <tantek> rather than making an exception
[20:13:11] <tantek> i.e. start1, end1, start2,end2 done
[20:13:16] <dglazkov> my primary concern is how JAWS reads the title. Which AFAIK it reads it out. I haven't thought of that before the dude posted.
[20:13:27] <kingryan> yeah, dglazkov, it was a "I'm a blogger, I don't have to substantiate my opinions, esp. about technology I'm not familiar with"
[20:14:13] <dglazkov> "but I reserve the right to bile upon anything I see fit"
[20:14:32] <dglazkov> oh well
[20:14:43] <tantek> dglazkov - see the presentation i mentioned
[20:14:50] <tantek> it covers accessibility tools etc.
[20:14:55] <dglazkov> ok
[20:15:47] <tantek> there are lots of rumors/misinformation/lore flying around about what accessibility tools do and don't do, and unfortunately a bunch of them get propagated by people who talk in theory rather than actually work with the tools.
[20:16:26] <dglazkov> http://www.sf.id.au/WE05/forms.html yay!
[20:16:53] <dglazkov> doesn't read in default setting.
[20:17:08] <dglazkov> thanks tantek
[20:17:19] * dglazkov really ought to buy a copy of JAWS
[20:17:32] <tantek> in general the presentations at we05 were VERY high quality/calibre
[20:17:45] <tantek> pretty much all of them are worth the time of all microformatters to go through
[20:18:01] <tantek> trovster, how's that event markup going?
[20:18:29] <trovster> Urm, I haven't done anything, all I saw you mention was the latitude thing, which I'd got rid of ages ago!
[20:19:06] <tantek> the title/summary of the events in the program listing http://we05.com/program.cfm are linked to the slides, check it out (plus there are podcasts you can listen to as well while you read the slides)
[20:19:18] <tantek> trovster and dup classes
[20:19:30] <tantek> oh, and double check your dtend is consistent
[20:20:15] <trovster> Ah, dupe class="org" ?
[20:20:43] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4481 * RyanKing * (+487) Casey Conroy - added overall implied schema
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[20:43:01] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
[20:54:30] <trovster> tantek: Want to see the vcard formatted?
[20:54:53] <trovster> vevent even
[20:55:05] <tantek> sure, url?
[20:55:43] <trovster> Unless you check in IE, there is a *tiny* problem atm.
[20:56:35] <trovster> Fixed
[20:56:42] <trovster> OK then... http://multipack.trovster.com/
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[21:03:45] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4482 * Tantek * (+223) added Tails
[21:04:26] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4483 * Tantek * (+223) added Tails
[21:04:52] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4484 * Tantek * (+223) added Tails
[21:05:58] <mfbot> [[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=4485 * Tantek * (+223) added Tails
[21:08:34] <dglazkov> tails frikin' ROCKS!
[21:09:23] <trovster> It's be interested to add long/lat information to a venue Here.
[21:09:32] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.3 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
[21:09:58] * kingryan|lunch is now known as kingryan
[21:10:17] <tantek> trovster, why not simply link to a mapping site of your choice, and let it resolve the address?
[21:10:29] <tantek> and btw, use geo http://microformats.org/wiki/geo for lat/long
[21:10:42] <tantek> adr is for street addresses
[21:11:39] <trovster> Yeh, I'm not putting the physical numbers in. And the postcode /is/ linked to Google.
[21:12:24] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4486 * Tantek * (+182) added Smartzilla
[21:19:58] <Frederic> How do you call annoucements made by companies who want to hire someone?
[21:20:23] <limbo_> job openings?
[21:20:40] <tantek> sounds like a want ad
[21:20:43] <tantek> a type of listing
[21:20:52] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/listing-examples
[21:21:00] * cee-dub-eats is now known as cee-dub
[21:21:50] <Frederic> Damn, job listing...
[21:22:02] <Frederic> What I was thinking since a few days already exists
[21:22:46] <Frederic> I've made such ad using microformats for my company
[21:23:32] <Frederic> Using hcard for the company description, hcal for the mission description and tags for the skills I was looking for
[21:24:17] <Frederic> I wondered if it was the good way
[21:26:36] <mfbot> [[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=4487 * Tantek * (+185) add Innovating on top of standards
[21:26:55] <tantek> frederic, makes sense to markup building blocks of content as microformats
[21:27:16] <tantek> the challenge is determining when a collection of those building blocks should become a new microformat
[21:27:24] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) has joined #microformats
[21:27:24] <jibot> DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
[21:27:40] <Frederic> I don't think it needs to be a new one for now
[21:27:47] * DanC tunes in to check on the progress of hAtom...
[21:28:00] <tantek> hello DanC!
[21:28:00] <Frederic> Well, I don't have enough new things at the moment, but things are coming up
[21:28:16] <DanC> hi tantek
[21:28:20] <tantek> DanC, are we allowed to talk publicly about that thing that we're signed up for at the end of February?
[21:28:33] <DanC> yes
[21:28:39] <DanC> I assume so
[21:28:50] <DanC> though I haven't managed to rub two brain-cells together about it
[21:28:53] <tantek> since it is on the "open to the public" plenary day right?
[21:28:58] <DanC> right
[21:29:53] <dglazkov> c'mon spill the beans :)
[21:30:15] <tantek> DanC, is there a public URL for the "open to the public" plenary day?
[21:30:38] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html is about the whole week
[21:30:46] <DanC> that's world-readable, right?
[21:30:57] <tantek> i'm sure dglazkov will tell us :)
[21:31:11] <dglazkov> yup
[21:31:36] <dglazkov> not exceedingly pretty, but readable
[21:31:49] * DanC finds a few in http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Examples_in_the_wild
[21:32:32] * DanC must have a totally warped sense of taste in web pages; thought it was one of the prettier ones W3C had put together
[21:32:34] <tantek> trovster, btw, in your hCalendar/hCard example, you could put the URL to upcoming inside the vevent and mark it with class="url"
[21:33:22] <tantek> DanC, in the "design community" W3C pages are thought of as quite ugly in general
[21:33:25] <dglazkov> oh, yeah, if you lower the bar to "the ones that W3C" put together...
[21:33:27] <Frederic> tantek: I think that if we have a resume microformat, we should have one for job announcement, mostly because it's not only hcard + hcal + tags for the skills
[21:33:55] <DanC> is the "design community" the people that use little teenie fonts on all the blogs?
[21:34:05] <tantek> Frederic, perhaps you can help with adding some job-posting related examples on the listing-examples page
[21:34:31] <tantek> DanC, heh indeed. Sometimes they're after just prettiness, but most of the time, the design folks get very pleasant readability too.
[21:34:42] * tantek puts on armchair design-critic cap
[21:35:01] <tantek> short list of "obvious" complaints about the w3c page you posted:
[21:35:11] <tantek> too little leading in body text for readabiility
[21:35:34] <tantek> insufficient whitespace to the right of the floated photo
[21:35:49] <DanC> is there a one-line css fix for each of these? I'm game to try
[21:35:58] <tantek> headings appear "shoved" up to the top of their blue backgrounds
[21:36:12] <DanC> those blue headings _are_ hideous, no?
[21:36:39] <tantek> event display is both messy and a poor use of space
[21:36:44] * DanC is tempted to mark up the page using hCalendar while I'm at it
[21:36:48] * tantek views source
[21:37:00] * tantek disappointed
[21:37:29] <tantek> yes, DanC, that would be great!
[21:37:37] <tantek> along with the venue/meeting location as an hCard
[21:37:53] <DanC> hmm... all those ... blech...
[21:37:54] <tantek> ooh - and the hotels too
[21:38:16] <DanC> if I Just Do It, there's a chance it'll get clobbered. But I'm still game
[21:38:33] <tantek> "meals" section should be marked up as hCalendar as well
[21:39:07] <DanC> css 1st, please? how do you spell "more whitespace to the right of the photo"?
[21:39:09] <tantek> Zakim bridge for the plenary day could be marked up as hCalendar as well
[21:39:48] <tantek> Contacts and Program Committee should be marked up in hCard, and individuals linked to their home pages
[21:40:05] <DanC> css 1st pretty please?
[21:40:46] * tantek removes armchair design-critic cap
[21:40:59] * DanC boggles @ <h1 class="title">
[21:41:06] <DanC> department of redundancy department
[21:41:08] <tantek> DanC, I know enough to recognize some obvious design mistakes - but I don't know enough design to make it look pretty
[21:41:29] <DanC> oh. :-/
[21:41:38] <tantek> but i can help with minor improvements
[21:41:44] * tantek wonders if we should take this to #css ;)
[21:42:02] <Frederic> I can help too
[21:42:09] <dglazkov> img.illustration { float: left; margin: 1em 1em 1em 0 }
[21:42:11] * tantek thinks DanC should fix the markup first
[21:42:38] <tantek> whoa, #css has 163 folks in it
[21:42:50] <dglazkov> yeah, css is a big room
[21:42:58] * dglazkov thinks they will clobber DanC
[21:43:15] <dglazkov> with useful advice, of course
[21:44:21] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:44:21] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[21:44:40] <dglazkov> how about a contest?
[21:44:43] <tantek> DanC, that margin will help yes
[21:44:49] <tantek> dglazkov totally
[21:45:00] <tantek> except that someone might get miffed
[21:45:12] <DanC> er... img.illustration? I don't see class="illustration" anywhere. and it's a photo, not an illustration
[21:45:28] <tantek> DanC, some line-height:1.2 or so should help
[21:45:34] <tantek> perhaps on Body
[21:46:09] <dglazkov> DanC, ok, img.photo is fine. But need to add class in markup
[21:46:24] <DanC> class="inset"?
[21:46:39] <tantek> not necessarily
[21:46:44] <tantek> you could just fix it in the inline CSS
[21:46:50] <tantek> that might be simpler/less intrusive
[21:47:30] <DanC> eek!
[21:47:36] <tantek> ugh xml:lang on both <html> and <body> ?
[21:47:45] <tantek> and same with lang?
[21:47:46] <DanC> rev of 2006/01/27 21:47:20 screwed it up
[21:48:00] <tantek> <a name= ...
[21:48:03] <tantek> yuck
[21:48:47] <tantek> ahem, semantic abuse!
[21:48:49] * DanC can't find the bug in my img.inset style
[21:48:50] <tantek> ONLINE
[21:48:51] <tantek> REGISTRATION
[21:48:56] <DanC> slow down?
[21:48:57] <tantek> is *not* <code>
[21:49:38] <tantek> WOW. misuse of <address> element.
[21:49:40] <DanC> and tread lightly; I'm pretty sure the author just accidently clicked the wrong button in amaya
[21:49:50] <tantek> that's almost bloggably bad
[21:50:15] <DanC> give us a little credit for having our admin folks produce HTML rather than ms word or PDF, OK?
[21:50:46] <DanC> can you look at the rev of 2006/01/27 21:47:20 and tell me why the img doesn't float?
[21:51:02] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
[21:52:13] <DanC> ok, now it floats, but looks funny. 2006/01/27 21:51:50
[21:52:22] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:52:55] <dglazkov> funny how? looks good, methinks
[21:53:07] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:53:18] <DanC> the 2nd heading doesn't look wierd? ok.
[21:53:21] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:53:26] <DanC> vevent markup seems to be working...
[21:53:28] <DanC> <c:Vevent>
[21:53:28] <DanC> <dtstart xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#"
[21:53:28] <DanC> r:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date">2006-02-27</dtstart>
[21:53:28] <DanC> <dtend xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#"
[21:53:28] <DanC> r:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date">2006-03-03</dtend>
[21:53:29] <DanC> <url xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#" r:resource=""/>
[21:53:31] <DanC> <location xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#" xml:lang="en">Royal Hotel Casino / Mandelieu, France</location>
[21:53:34] <DanC> </c:Vevent>
[21:53:36] <DanC> ugh. sorry
[21:54:08] <dglazkov> it does look funny. Lemme think a sec
[21:54:38] <keithalexander> why doesn't XFN cover non-symmetric professional relationships?
[21:54:59] <DanC> like what, keithalexander ?
[21:55:33] <keithalexander> well, if I understand the terminology rightly (not sure I do), rel="client"
[21:55:47] <keithalexander> or rel="employee"
[21:55:53] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-216-102-88-235.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
[21:56:04] <dglazkov> hey, do you want to maybe add h2 { clear: both }?
[21:56:24] <dglazkov> well, no, that would clear it past the floating menu on the right
[21:56:32] <dglazkov> let's do h2 { clear: left }
[21:57:18] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:57:29] <BenjaminCarlyle> Doesn't that floating menu need a header or some kind? :) It look kind of bare.
[21:57:32] <BenjaminCarlyle> (Morning...)
[21:57:35] <tantek_> hello
[21:57:39] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) has left #microformats
[21:57:46] <tantek_> minor power outage here
[21:58:30] <tantek_> DanC, did you figure it out
[21:58:32] * gregelin (n=gregelin@216-80-120-72.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com) Quit ()
[21:58:42] <DanC> makeing progress...
[21:59:31] <DanC> ok 21:58:51 has h2 { clear: left }
[21:59:33] <tantek_> ah, perhaps expand the 3px border-right to 1em instead of the 1em margin-right
[21:59:48] <tantek_> no need for the clear
[22:00:06] <DanC> really?
[22:00:12] <tantek_> yeah
[22:00:20] <dglazkov> a small styling suggestion. What about using border-bottom rather than background for h2?
[22:00:25] <DanC> img.inset { float: left; border-right: 1em solid #fff; margin: 1em 1em 1em 0 }
[22:00:35] <DanC> which margin is right?
[22:00:41] <DanC> i.e. which one do I zero out?
[22:00:42] <tantek_> TRBL
[22:00:44] <dglazkov> the second one
[22:00:47] <tantek_> think TRouBLe
[22:00:51] <dglazkov> top right bottom left
[22:01:12] * DanC thinks you can't pay for CSS training this good ;-)
[22:01:39] <DanC> 22:01:02 has no float
[22:01:55] <DanC> hphp. no clear
[22:01:56] <dglazkov> neato!
[22:02:10] <tantek_> nicer
[22:02:23] <dglazkov> let's do the same thing for bottom border of the image:
[22:02:25] <keithalexander> would anyone care to comment/put me right re: xfn & non-symmetric professional relationships?
[22:02:45] <kingryan> keithalexander, the list isn't intended to cover all possible human relations
[22:02:46] <tantek_> keith, what's the question?
[22:03:13] <kingryan> the idea is to capture the ones most often used in social network sites and online in general
[22:03:22] <keithalexander> why xfn doesn't have any non-symmetric professional relationships
[22:03:24] <dglazkov> img.inset { float: left; border-right: 1em solid #fff; border-bottom: 1em solid #fff; margin: 1em 0 0 0; }
[22:03:30] <kingryan> if you have any you'd suggest adding, they can be considered for future versions
[22:03:48] <keithalexander> sure ok
[22:03:52] * DanC furrows brow trying to figure out hCalendar for "Monday /Tuesday and Thursday /Friday"
[22:03:52] <tantek_> keith, we stopped at two very common ones
[22:04:09] <tantek_> DanC - yeah, rdate
[22:04:09] <dglazkov> maybe we should start a new channel: #styling-w3c-pages
[22:04:24] <tantek_> i was serious about taking it to #css
[22:04:25] <keithalexander> fair enough
[22:04:30] <tantek_> i think that would be quite interesting
[22:04:34] <tantek_> DanC, r u up for that?
[22:05:07] <DanC> umm... sure... name is kinda long, but I guess it doesn't matter
[22:05:22] <trovster> DanC: Wanna check out the CSS for a page I've just finished then ;)
[22:05:55] <tantek_> DanC, I meant #css
[22:08:47] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[22:09:33] <DanC> I can do a weekly repeating thing that occurs mon/tue, thu/fri, I think.
[22:09:41] <DanC> or did I make up my own repeating markup?
[22:09:50] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
[22:09:55] <DanC> <div class="rrule">every 1 WEEKLY on TU</div>
[22:09:56] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
[22:09:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[22:10:03] <DanC> ^ from my personal calendar
[22:11:03] <dglazkov> damn. time to go home
[22:11:03] <tantek> DanC, ouch.
[22:11:11] <kingryan> honestly, DanC, I'm no sure what our plan is for rdate in hcalendar
[22:11:14] <dglazkov> by everyone.
[22:11:24] <tantek> i'd say try doing the one-time events first
[22:11:38] <DanC> ok, weds...
[22:11:57] <tantek> nothing repeats weekly on that page does it?
[22:12:04] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
[22:12:17] <tantek> easiest thing to do for things which repeat very few times is to use rdate and simply list them all
[22:12:20] <DanC> microformats and DRY don't get along very well in cases like this. lots of class="vevent" stuff that would be factored out if I were doing an arbitrary mapping of XHTML to iclandar data in XSLT
[22:12:30] <tantek> rather than trying to construct a strange rrule
[22:12:46] <DanC> I haven't tested rdate in stuff like apple iCal. does it work?
[22:13:06] <tantek> i'm sure someone here from Apple will file a bug if it doesn't ;)
[22:13:17] <tantek> we have a place for noting such problems
[22:13:39] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/icalendar-implementations
[22:13:46] <DanC> I usually just Stay Away from stuff that doesn't work. I wonder how CALSIFY is doing.
[22:13:52] <kingryan> the current x2v support for rdate is to put the big string of occurences in an abbr@title
[22:14:04] <kingryan> but I think we can improve that
[22:14:19] <tantek> perhaps, but is it worth spending the time now improving that?
[22:14:31] <kingryan> maybe not now
[22:14:31] <tantek> kingryan, add your thoughts on improving it to the hcalendar-brainstorming page
[22:14:40] <tantek> so we don't forget them :)
[22:14:46] <kingryan> kk
[22:15:18] * tantek is glad he uses laptops when the power goes out unexpectedly
[22:15:24] * DanC chokes on all the
[22:15:30] <tantek> totally
[22:15:49] <tantek> especially when the power goes out only at his house due to work going on in his garage
[22:16:03] <tantek> i can still use wifi from neighbors to connect to the net
[22:16:13] <DanC> my instinct for stuff like 8am/10am etc. is to use dl. I think that's a bad habit... should i use ol? or ul?
[22:16:34] <DanC> or table?
[22:16:43] <tantek> either <ol> or <table> I think
[22:17:08] <kingryan> oh, the 2 column table thing, again?
[22:17:17] <DanC> yup. old habits die hard.
[22:17:41] * DanC thinks of dave hollander and the segmented list <sl> element that almost made it into HTML
[22:17:42] <kingryan> :D
[22:17:56] <tantek> ooh segmented lists would have been cool
[22:18:05] <kingryan> yes, very much so
[22:18:06] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.3 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
[22:18:07] <tantek> or even if current lists could just "continue" from previous lists
[22:18:14] <kingryan> I see a need for them regularly
[22:18:18] <tantek> so the numbering keeps going etc.
[22:18:19] <tantek> yes me too
[22:18:36] <kingryan> there's a (non-standard?) @start, no?
[22:18:57] <kingryan> but that doesn't actually connect the lists semantically
[22:18:59] <tantek> sure but you have to guess what the last number of the previous list was and add 1
[22:19:02] <tantek> that too
[22:19:38] <kingryan> ah, @start's deprecated
[22:20:56] <DanC> so paris is +1 on that day http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=1&year=2006&hour=8&min=0&sec=0&p1=195
[22:21:50] <DanC> how do I suppress the 1. 2. 3. on an ol?
[22:22:16] <tantek> list-style:none
[22:23:33] <DanC> <li class="vevent"><abbr class="dtstart"
[22:23:33] <DanC> title="2006-03-01T09:00:00+0100">9:00am</abbr> <strong
[22:23:33] <DanC> class="summary">Technical Plenary Day starts
[22:23:44] <DanC> it gets tedious to spell out 2006-03-01T every time
[22:24:05] <kingryan> yeah
[22:24:22] <tantek> DanC, you can omit the dashes ;)
[22:24:28] <kingryan> not sure there's an easy way around that, though
[22:24:51] <tantek> hey, it's the expansion of an abbreviation, there's not supposed to be a way around that :)
[22:24:57] * tara_ (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
[22:25:01] <briansuda> FYI, X2V can handle Tables, just remember to add the HEADER and AXIS and ID attribites
[22:25:03] <tantek> hi tara
[22:25:05] <DanC> no, it's repetition of information elsewhere on the page
[22:25:11] <tara_> hi tantek
[22:25:28] <DanC> it's the RY of DRI
[22:25:30] <DanC> DRY
[22:25:37] * DanC learns to type
[22:26:19] <kingryan> tantek, we still need a to find a way to do recursive abbr's
[22:26:33] <DanC> the GRDDL way around it is to add more smarts to the XSLT transformation, at the cost of asking consumers to download and run XSLT. prolly not worth it in this case, but getting there.
[22:26:33] <tantek> DanC, that doesn't make sense
[22:26:36] <tantek> that's like saying
[22:26:51] <tantek> If I say 1000 and 1001, I am repeating myself because they both have 1000
[22:27:00] <tantek> that's not repeating yourself
[22:27:09] <tantek> a datetime is just a number
[22:27:10] <DanC> the analogy seems very, very weak
[22:27:27] <tantek> of a very strange set of a baases
[22:27:29] <tantek> bases even
[22:27:53] <DanC> this page says, right at the top "27 February - 03 March 2006" but here I am repeating that info over and over
[22:27:59] <tantek> just like 2001, 2002 is not repeating "2000"
[22:28:08] <tantek> even though humans say 01, 02
[22:28:20] <DanC> the list of 8am/9am items is nested inside something that says "Wednesday" and yet I can't use that
[22:28:22] <tantek> um now
[22:28:23] <tantek> no
[22:28:29] <tantek> just because a page says 1000-2000
[22:28:34] <tantek> doesn't mean that 1001 is repeating anything
[22:28:43] <DanC> I don't buy the analogy.
[22:28:44] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4488 * RyanKing * (+274) Brian Suda - adding Overall Implied Schema
[22:28:48] <tantek> numbers are numbers
[22:28:53] <DanC> clearly, the 8am on this page is associated with the Wednesday, yes?
[22:29:20] <DanC> and the Wednesday in the middle of the page is associated with the date in the h1
[22:29:42] <kingryan> danc, yeah it does seem a bit awkward
[22:29:54] <kingryan> but at least you don't have to write another file (in a different format) :D
[22:30:20] <tantek> right kingryan
[22:31:08] <tantek> if there were a universally (worldwide) accepted human readable form for writing the datetimes we probably would have used that instead of ISO8601
[22:31:08] * DanC wishes for an emacs macro
[22:31:39] * kingryan has a textmate macro :D
[22:32:00] <DanC> you really don't see my DRY point, tantek? you don't think I could write a program to get all the dates out of this page, just using markup structure, without repeating the year and such all over the place?
[22:33:21] <kingryan> I imagine xoxo could be useful here, but perhaps more complex
[22:35:03] <DanC> 2006/01/27 22:34:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html has hCalendar for Weds
[22:35:25] <DanC> of course, the whitespace for the <ol> items is different from the list above which uses
[22:36:16] <DanC> can somebody confirm that it looks right thru an icalendar tool?
[22:36:20] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4489 * KeithA * (+90) Work Experience -
[22:36:22] <tantek> DanC, you could, in a non-International way
[22:36:29] <tantek> if you made a ton of assumptions
[22:36:33] <tantek> that's the problem
[22:36:45] <kingryan> danc, how do I see that revision?
[22:36:55] <DanC> " at the cost of asking consumers to download and run XSLT". right.
[22:36:57] <DanC> reload?
[22:37:15] <kingryan> arg, looking at wrong part of the page, nm
[22:37:15] <DanC> sometimes you get a laggy mirror
[22:37:19] <tantek> i still assert that a instant in time is just a number
[22:37:29] <tantek> and that a segment of time is two numbers
[22:38:28] <DanC> you don't grant that the 8am is associated with the Weds above nor the 2006 above that?
[22:38:30] <kingryan> danc, looks good
[22:38:36] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[22:38:53] <kingryan> (via x2v)
[22:38:58] <DanC> tx, kingryan
[22:39:27] <DanC> ugh... did I screw up the encoding of the hotel name? GÃ©nÃ©ra
[22:40:17] <DanC> crap; my emacs screws up encoding stuff all the time
[22:41:26] <tantek> emacs isn't UTF8 compliant?
[22:41:27] <DanC> wierd; I thought nxml-mode would respect encoding="UTF-8"
[22:41:42] <DanC> emacs and utf-8 sometimes get along and sometimes don't
[22:41:57] * om_out (n=mjs@ppp-69-236-43-146.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
[22:42:12] * om_out is now known as othermaciej
[22:42:39] <briansuda> that encoding problem might be a problem with TIDY
[22:43:00] <kingryan> the encoding looks right to me
[22:43:11] <kingryan> http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://www.w3.org/2005/12/aoverview.html
[22:43:54] <briansuda> you have your own TIDY, i have to use the W3C version.
[22:44:23] <kingryan> true
[22:44:28] <tantek> perhaps document the problems you find with TIDY on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/tidy-issues
[22:45:15] <kingryan> eh, tidy has its own bug tracking
[22:45:18] <kingryan> why replicate?
[22:46:31] <briansuda> i'm not sure if it is a bug, or just picky, you specific the Mime-Type (ONLY) in the HTTP Headers
[22:46:44] <tantek> kingryan, note the specific issues that *we* have run into
[22:46:53] <tantek> and perhaps link to the bugs in tidy's bugtracking system
[22:47:02] <tantek> the point is to save time for other microformatters
[22:47:08] <tantek> and amongst ourselves
[22:47:23] <tantek> and sometimes, raising the visibility of an issue gets it fixed sooner
[22:47:34] <tantek> especially if we document what things it may be blocking
[22:47:44] <othermaciej> tantek: so I was thinking about it, and I think my approach for collapsible lists is fundamentally broken
[22:47:59] <othermaciej> tantek: what if the heading is long enough that it wraps?
[22:48:09] <othermaciej> there's no way to even detect that, let alone cope with it
[22:48:16] <tantek> othermaciej - think Finder view
[22:48:17] <tantek> just keep that in mind
[22:48:22] <tantek> don't try to solve problems that others don't have
[22:49:32] <othermaciej> that would require styling the headings to never wrap
[22:49:34] <DanC> 2006/01/27 22:49:21 encodings fixed
[22:49:57] <othermaciej> the finder does that intrinsically
[22:50:13] <othermaciej> I am not sure that forcing no wrap is appropriate for xoxo lists
[22:50:41] <othermaciej> in fact, I'm not even sure how to force nowrap on an inline-level element
[22:50:45] <othermaciej> no wait, I guess I do
[22:50:58] <othermaciej> display: inline-block; width: intrinsic;
[22:51:31] <othermaciej> still not sure it is the right thing to do though
[22:51:41] <termie> othermaciej: need a "wrappable text" microformat
[22:51:42] <othermaciej> there are valid uses of outlines where you want the text to wrap
[22:51:58] * DanC tries to remember how to mark up company names
[22:52:02] <othermaciej> if you are writing an outline for an essay, say, instead of making a file browser
[22:52:06] <othermaciej> termie: it's called
[22:52:11] <tantek> DanC, class="org"
[22:52:23] <briansuda> class="organization-name
[22:52:32] <briansuda> class="organization-unit" as well
[22:52:53] <briansuda> those are optional sub-elements of class="org"
[22:52:56] <mfbot> [[resume-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-formats&diff=0&oldid=4490 * RyanKing * (-413) Analysis - moving stuff to -brainstorming
[22:53:17] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4491 * RyanKing * (+432) Consequence of - moving stuff
[22:53:37] <tantek> briansuda, right
[22:53:48] <tantek> i usually tell folks to just start with class="org"
[22:53:55] <tantek> and if they want to indicate more structure they can
[22:55:27] <kingryan> wow, tbray using tables for presentation: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/11/12/Template.html
[22:56:07] <DanC> 2006/01/27 22:55:37 main hotel marked up with hCard. pls check.
[22:56:52] <tantek> DanC, btw, you might want to put padding:0;margin:0 on those lists without bullets/numbers to get rid of the indent
[22:58:06] <DanC> ok
[22:58:18] <DanC> what's wrong with my hCard markup? X2V gives a wierd msg
[22:58:27] <DanC> http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html
[22:58:30] <KevinMarks> encoding rules are very tricky
[22:58:41] <KevinMarks> Pilgrim has a definitive treatise
[22:58:41] <DanC> ah.. "No FN property was found"
[22:59:00] <KevinMarks> http://feedparser.org/docs/character-encoding.html
[22:59:01] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
[22:59:13] <kingryan> DanC, Fax : +33 (0)4 93 49 51 50 ?
[22:59:18] <DanC> how do I make X2V happy even though there's no person name in the contact info for this hotel?
[22:59:29] <kingryan> class="org fn"
[22:59:35] <kingryan> I think
[22:59:57] <kingryan> applications tend to use the org for fn in the case of company contacts
[23:00:14] * DanC wasn't going to waste time marking up fax info, but is OK to paste in kingryan's contribution
[23:00:46] <kingryan> just making sure you know about the type/value thing
[23:01:31] <DanC> 2006/01/27 23:01:07 x2v is happy now
[23:01:56] <DanC> hmm... fax seems goofy somehow...
[23:02:01] <DanC> TEL:+33 (0)4 92 97 70 00
[23:02:01] <DanC> TEL:+33 (0)4 93 49 51 50
[23:02:14] <DanC> oops; forgot adr
[23:03:28] <trovster> Hmm, I just checked a site i've put a hcard on, with that tool you posted DanC. It has both a fax and phone number, but they don't appear on the vcard..
[23:03:53] <kingryan> trovster, url?
[23:03:57] <trovster> http://www.approveddesign.co.uk/about/contact/
[23:04:12] * DanC suspects Fax vs fax case sensistivity issue
[23:04:34] <kingryan> no
[23:04:38] <kingryan> this: <dd class="fax">01889 574656</dd>
[23:04:40] <kingryan> should be:
[23:05:04] <kingryan> <dd class="tel">fax 01889 574656</dd>
[23:05:05] <tantek> DanC, only the class names are case sensiitive
[23:05:08] <kingryan> or an equivalent
[23:05:13] <briansuda> also, i'm not sure, but test it with the beta X2V (add &beta=yes to the URL) if it still doesn;t work
[23:05:27] <trovster> kingryan: Hmm.
[23:06:19] <tantek> kingryan is right
[23:06:27] <kingryan> tel has two subproperties, type and value
[23:06:45] <kingryan> type is optionaly
[23:06:47] <tantek> briansuda, should X2V warn if someone uses class="fax" or class="home" or class="work" in the context of an hCard ?
[23:06:48] <kingryan> optional*
[23:07:07] <tantek> or class="cell" or class="mobile" or class="voice" or class="mobile"
[23:07:20] <Atamido> What did I miss?
[23:07:25] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
[23:07:30] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
[23:07:30] <Atamido> Did anything about hCal get decided?
[23:07:32] <briansuda> i don't think so, because those are NOT case-sensitive.... it is just that the version of X2V does not support that, the BETA version does...
[23:07:50] <tantek> brian - case-sensitivity is not the issue!
[23:08:03] <tantek> the point is, those are supposed to be in text nodes not class names
[23:08:22] <tantek> and if someone is doing class="fax" they probably meant to do fax
[23:08:59] <briansuda> oh, i was thinking something else...
[23:09:07] <tantek> same with "home", "work", "cell", "mobile", "voice", etc.
[23:09:13] <briansuda> i would still vote against that because then you couldn't use FAX as a normal CSS style
[23:09:26] <tantek> hence why i said *warning*
[23:09:30] <tantek> and only inside an hcard
[23:09:59] <kingryan> how do you do a warning with x2v?
[23:10:01] <tantek> enough folks have gotten it wrong (probably due to early brainstorming attempts) that we should advise them of the right thing to do
[23:10:12] <briansuda> hmm... where/when would that warning appear? either X2V makes a vCard or it doesn't.
[23:10:25] <othermaciej> tantek: so should I add some CSS to prevent list items from wrapping in my script?
[23:10:33] <tantek> yes
[23:10:43] <othermaciej> tantek: I don't mind limiting its applicability, but I would like it to degrade gracefully at least
[23:10:58] * DanC likes class="fax"
[23:11:03] <othermaciej> however, I don't think an approach like this can work for cases where you want a list with paragraphs in it
[23:11:11] <tantek> briansuda, the point is, if enough people make a common mistake, it's worth adding a warning for it
[23:11:26] <tantek> othermaciej, one case at a time
[23:11:28] <trovster> Ok, I have class="org fn" but (using that script) it doesn't add any text to the FullName in the vcard.
[23:11:35] <tantek> the common case for lists is one-liners
[23:11:56] <kingryan> danc, that will often violate the dry principle
[23:12:03] <briansuda> i agree, i'll see what/where i might be able to slip in a warning... maybe in an X-PARAM in vCard
[23:12:06] <kingryan> people put the type of TEL in text nodes already
[23:12:11] <othermaciej> tantek: I think it may just be fundamentally undoable without throwing in hack classes like Chris Holland did
[23:12:31] <othermaciej> I dislike script decorating the data with presentational classes
[23:12:41] <tantek> like i said, let's get simple (and common) things working well before worrying about edge cases
[23:12:48] <DanC> ah... true... and class="fax" is invisble
[23:12:51] <tantek> agreed, let's avoid decorating the data
[23:13:12] <tantek> DanC, right - that's the reason we chose to make the type values text instead of class names
[23:13:12] <tantek> to make them *visible*
[23:13:15] <othermaciej> outlines with flowing text aren't an edge case IMO
[23:13:57] <kingryan> well, tantek, danc, the values *already are visible* (most of the time)
[23:14:06] <tantek> that's my point
[23:14:12] <BenjaminCarlyle> So do we care about the chinese? What is the solution for non-english-speakers?
[23:14:16] <tantek> most people already put the text fax: or cell: etc. in the text
[23:14:43] <kingryan> BenjaminCarlyle, in this particular case, abbr@title can be used to provide a seperate value for the machine
[23:14:44] <tantek> we need an <alt> element that allows you to show one language and use another
[23:14:55] <tantek> and barring that, what kingryan said
[23:15:00] <DanC> I don't think I have energy to markup the alternate hotels on http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html . Hmm... the remote connectivity stuff is tasty though...
[23:15:03] <tantek> same as for f:
[23:15:16] <tantek> e.g. <abbr class="type" value="fax">f:</abbr>
[23:15:19] <tantek> which is also common
[23:16:04] <tantek> DanC, don't forget to hCard the Contacts and Program Committee
[23:16:08] <kingryan> or <abbr class="type" title="cell">mobile</abbr>:
[23:16:28] <tantek> yes
[23:16:34] <DanC> somebody willing to help with program committe homepages?
[23:16:39] <DanC> i.e. finding them
[23:17:53] * kingryan has no idea where to look
[23:18:03] <DanC> google
[23:18:54] * DanC puzzles over marking up "Local host" stuff
[23:19:14] <kingryan> agent?
[23:19:32] * DanC is still puzzled
[23:19:48] <kingryan> you talking about this: "Local Host - W3C Europe ERCIM/Sophia site." ?
[23:20:25] <DanC> yup
[23:20:43] <DanC> w3t-tpregister@w3.org is not really an email address for that site
[23:20:58] <DanC> it's an email address for some otherwise unnamed entity
[23:21:08] <kingryan> ah
[23:21:09] <DanC> it's the event organizer... hmm...
[23:21:17] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
[23:23:44] <DanC> for the program committe... are those titles? or roles?
[23:24:12] <kingryan> I'd say roles
[23:25:43] <kingryan> actually, danc, I take that back
[23:25:50] <kingryan> role's are just for the given event
[23:26:00] <kingryan> those appear to be more persistent than that
[23:27:44] <DanC> djw has 2 titles; is that OK?
[23:28:10] <briansuda> You are starting into Territory that hCalendar has not yet crossed, so take notes!
[23:29:08] <tantek> i think DanC is marking up hCards
[23:29:14] <tantek> atm
[23:29:43] <tantek> DanC, it's not consistent for person to person
[23:29:50] <tantek> on the Program Committee
[23:29:57] <tantek> e.g.
[23:30:08] <tantek> for Al Gilman
[23:30:54] <tantek> <abbr title="W3C Protocols and Formats Working Group" class="org">Protocols and Formats WG</abbr> Chair
[23:31:05] <mfbot> [[resume-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-formats&diff=0&oldid=4492 * RyanKing * (+121) Existing XML resume formats - added a link to xml.com about XRL
[23:31:19] <tantek> but for Susan Lesch
[23:31:35] <DanC> 2006/01/27 23:30:59 has an hCard for each PC member
[23:31:59] <tantek> (W3C)Communications Team
[23:32:36] <DanC> organization-name? new to me. do I need to read about it? I wonder...
[23:33:20] <DanC> what about Kevin Kelly? he has both his company affiliaion, IBM, and his W3C role/title/thingy
[23:33:33] <DanC> N;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Kelly;Kevin;;;;
[23:33:33] <DanC> FN;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Kevin Kelly
[23:33:33] <DanC> TITLE;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Compound Document Formats WG Chair\, XForms WG
[23:33:33] <DanC> ORG:IBM
[23:33:33] <DanC> END:VCARD
[23:33:54] <DanC> ^current (23:30:59) attempt
[23:34:29] * TantekC (n=Tantek@c-69-181-195-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[23:35:45] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-87-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
[23:35:59] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
[23:37:10] <tantek> DanC, re: organization-name, see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List
[23:38:31] <DanC> ok, tweaked SusanL's entry
[23:38:42] <DanC> (not yet committeD)
[23:38:44] <tantek> DanC, I believe for multiple titles you're just going to have to put them in one ...
[23:39:26] <DanC> X2V seems happy with multiple titles
[23:39:27] <DanC> FN;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Yves Lafon
[23:39:27] <DanC> TITLE;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Web Services Choreography\, XML Schema Patters for Databinding and XML Protocol WGs
[23:39:27] <DanC> TITLE;LANGUAGE=en;CHARSET=UTF-8:Semantic Web Services IG Team Contact
[23:39:42] <tantek> interesting
[23:39:52] <tantek> ok, let's see how vCard consumers handle that
[23:40:06] <tantek> perhaps add your notes on what you see to http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations
[23:40:31] <DanC> "Type value: A single text value."
[23:40:42] <tantek> sure
[23:40:49] <tantek> so is email
[23:40:53] <tantek> but you can have multiple email addresses
[23:42:09] <DanC> hmm
[23:42:55] <DanC> it sure seems silly that calendars and contacts are so separate. I'm forever manually copying contact info into my calendar and vice versa
[23:43:48] <DanC> likewise calendars and todo lists. The psion was nice in that one "agenda" record could be an appointment one day, and then you could delete the time info and it would become a todo.
[23:44:09] <kingryan> well, events and todos share a file format
[23:44:39] <DanC> egad:
[23:44:41] <DanC> <code>W3C_TPPC(tech_plen)</code>
[23:44:41] <DanC> <code>Wednesday, 1 March</code>
[23:44:48] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has left #microformats
[23:48:26] <mfbot> [[resume-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-formats&diff=0&oldid=4493 * RyanKing * (+157) [http://xmlresume.sourceforge.net/ XML Resumé Library] -
[23:48:40] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
[23:52:35] <DanC> how to markup an event with a teleconference bridge?
[23:52:48] <DanC> vcard in what part of the vevent? the location?
[23:52:53] <mfbot> [[resume-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-formats&diff=0&oldid=4494 * RyanKing * (+151) [http://xmlresume.sourceforge.net/ XML Resumé Library] -
[23:53:35] <kingryan> eh, that's new territory for me
[23:56:45] <DanC> hmm... connecting vevent and vcard seems to be in http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming still
[23:57:00] <DanC> http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Relationships_with_other_microformats
[23:58:18] <kingryan> we have a few defined connections - organizer and such
[23:58:26] <DanC> if I could figure this out, I could maybe get our whole teleconference calendar reformatted with hCard/hCalendar

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