IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:05:41] * bkdelong_ (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [00:09:54] <tantek_>
hey kingryan, any reason to delete the q from rel-tag-faq?
- [00:10:16] * Tantek is now known as tantekc
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- [00:18:51] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4416 * EranGloben * (+16) fixed link
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- [00:23:03] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
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- [00:44:36] <KevinMarks>
hi maciej
- [00:44:47] <othermaciej>
hello KevinMarks
- [00:52:16] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) Quit ()
- [00:56:40] <kingryan>
tantek, I moved that q to rel-tag-issues
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- [01:30:49] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4417 * RyanKing * (+528) Dan Connolly - added overall implied schema for DanC
- [01:35:20] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4418 * RyanKing * (+456) Mark Pilgrim - added overall implied schema for markp
- [01:36:01] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4419 * RyanKing * (+1) Professional Experience - fixing formatting
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- [01:46:42] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4420 * RyanKing * (+345) Eran Globen - overall summary for eran
- [01:47:18] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4421 * RyanKing * (+31) Interests - forgot the header
- [01:48:44] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4422 * RyanKing * (+54) Education/ Military - more analysis
- [01:56:50] <mfbot>
[[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4423 * RyanKing * (+442) Tara Hunt - overall implied schema for Tara Hunt
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- [03:00:14] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [03:46:36] <tantek>
hey kingryan, resume-examples is looking good
- [03:47:04] <kingryan>
thanks
- [03:49:41] * tantek sets mode +o tantekc
- [04:18:00] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
- [04:18:00] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
- [04:23:30] <mfbot>
[[press]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press&diff=0&oldid=4424 * Tantek * (+926) added Google Web Authoring Stats publication
- [04:32:32] <mfbot>
[[events]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events * Tantek * (+293)
- [04:33:17] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4425 * Tantek * (+13) shared work areas -
- [04:33:43] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4426 * Tantek * (+14) shared work areas -
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- [06:10:14] * rejon (n=rejon@adsl-71-132-243-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:10:14] <jibot>
rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
- [06:15:57] <rejon>
hello...how did you all setup your supybot to get your CVS updates?
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- [06:20:57] <kingryan>
rejon, supybot?
- [06:21:50] <rejon>
the bot in your channel
- [06:22:19] <rejon>
mfbot: help
- [06:22:22] <kingryan>
uh, I don't see a supybot. are you talking about mfbot?
- [06:22:29] <rejon>
yes
- [06:22:38] <kingryan>
that's not cvs, that's mediawiki
- [06:22:41] <tantekc>
rejon, we have at least three bots in the channel right now
- [06:22:41] <rejon>
supybot is the type of bot
- [06:22:52] <tantekc>
jibot, mfbot, mflogbot
- [06:22:58] <tantekc>
?def mfbot
- [06:22:58] <jibot>
mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
- [06:22:59] <kingryan>
and its all stuff that comes with mediawiki
- [06:23:07] <tantekc>
?def mflogbot
- [06:23:07] <jibot>
mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
- [06:23:13] <tantekc>
?def jibot
- [06:23:13] <jibot>
jibot is the kind of bot that thinks whatever we tell it to think & blogging at http://hashjoiito.bloxus.com & pure joy & slightly confused about the meaning of & on sf at http://sourceforge.net/projects/jibot/ & has a wiki page at http://joiwiki.ito.com/joiwiki/?jibot & a hoe
- [06:24:05] <rejon>
thx...(setting up bots on the #cc creativecommons channel)
- [06:24:14] <kingryan>
mfbot is actually a 3 line shell script :D
- [06:24:24] <rejon>
do you all have any svn/cvs repositories setup
- [06:24:33] <rejon>
really...so it comes with standard mediawiki installs?
- [06:24:57] <mfbot>
[[xmdp]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp * Tantek * (+154)
- [06:25:15] <kingryan>
well, the parts do, you have to put them together
- [06:25:27] <rejon>
could I get a copy of your guys' mfbot
- [06:25:28] <kingryan>
we're "working on" an svn repos
- [06:25:39] <kingryan>
#!/bin/sh
- [06:25:39] <kingryan>
cd /var/www/wiki/irc
- [06:25:39] <kingryan>
php rcdumper.php -m \#microformats | ./mxircecho.py mfbot irc.freenode.net
- [06:25:43] <kingryan>
:D
- [06:26:16] <kingryan>
just replace the second line with the path to the irc dir in your wiki install
- [06:26:24] <rejon>
hahaha
- [06:26:27] <rejon>
sweet
- [06:26:28] <mfbot>
[[xmdp-examples]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-examples * Tantek * (+337)
- [06:27:00] <kingryan>
you might have to change some settings in the php and python scripts
- [06:27:04] <kingryan>
but it shouldn't be tough
- [06:27:04] <mfbot>
[[xmdp-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4427 * Tantek * (+13) XMDP Examples -
- [06:28:30] <rejon>
great!
- [06:28:49] <rejon>
so you all don't have any repository notification (svn/cvs)
- [06:29:04] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
- [06:29:04] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
- [06:34:41] <kingryan>
rejon, no we dont' have a repository
- [06:35:08] <rejon>
ok...thx for the help
- [06:35:54] <rejon>
also...I just got back from visiting Beijing and a colleague of mine is working on a project to gather info/contacts for other academics in media arts in china
- [06:36:05] <rejon>
he of couse wanted to build a contact database
- [06:36:36] <rejon>
I sold him though on the idea of using microformats and pushing this more onto the academics to put in/on their pages
- [06:36:51] <mfbot>
[[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4428 * Tantek * (+202) items can have multiple photos
- [06:37:46] <rejon>
so that then rather than requiring ppl to update their profiles, they could update in one place...and then he could just focus on mining these sites, or developing some type of contact aggregator
- [06:38:51] <tantekc>
precisely
- [06:41:46] <rejon>
I haven't done much research on how to do, but could see some simple mf for defining academic research
- [06:42:07] <rejon>
what spec would be good for defining profile (akin to myspace/tribe profile)
- [06:42:17] <rejon>
?
- [06:44:23] <kingryan>
for academic research, there's work being done on citations
- [06:44:37] <kingryan>
for social network site profiles, hcard+xfn would probably cover most of it
- [06:44:52] <rejon>
really?
- [06:45:36] <rejon>
my thought is to develop something akin to planetplanet to develop a basic social networking site that pulls content from various ppls' sites (social network aggregator?)
- [06:46:19] * zacker (n=zack@h-67-102-71-4.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:46:19] <jibot>
zacker is working at CivicSpace Labs : www.civicspacelabs.org
- [06:46:54] <tantekc>
rejon, the sites are quite inconsistent
- [06:47:03] <tantekc>
easiest thing to do is to start with hCard
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- [06:47:05] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
- [06:47:35] <rejon>
true...the point is to develop some light-standards for this type of service, in hopes of raising the level of the water (for all the boats)
- [06:47:58] * zacker (n=zack@h-67-102-71-4.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [06:48:03] <kingryan>
just adding hcard would be a huge improvment
- [06:48:36] <rejon>
hCard + xfn + rss (blog/media/etc)
- [06:49:09] <rejon>
with that could write enough to mine basic relationships between ppl., and have a basic social network service
- [06:49:18] <rejon>
agree?
- [06:49:48] <kingryan>
yes
- [06:49:54] <kingryan>
then you can iterate from thre
- [06:50:08] <kingryan>
btw, rejon, I think I've seen on in coffee to the people before
- [06:51:32] <rejon>
explain
- [06:55:52] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4429 * ChrisRG * (+139) Examples - - Added REBOL datatypes
- [06:55:55] <kingryan>
you know coffee to the people? the coffee shop at haight and masonic?
- [06:56:26] <rejon>
aha...oh yeah
- [06:56:38] <rejon>
Cool...I work for Creative Commons
- [06:57:00] * kingryan saw you sitting on the couch, saw rejon.org|com|whatever sticker on your laptop
- [06:57:04] <kingryan>
don't know what I remember
- [06:57:07] <rejon>
aha...cool
- [06:57:17] <rejon>
rejon.org
- [06:59:18] <tantekc>
?def rejon
- [06:59:18] <jibot>
rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/
- [07:00:34] <rejon>
www.rejon.org/bio/
- [07:00:40] <tantekc>
i am going to refactor reviews-formats into review-examples and review-formats to be consistent with our modern practice (hReview research was done before the process was very well defined, and as such the experience of doing that research helped shape the process)
- [07:01:53] <kingryan>
sounds good tantekc
- [07:02:36] <rejon>
excellent
- [07:11:01] <tantekc>
rejon, your /bio page looks ideal for adding some hCard goodness.
- [07:11:17] <rejon>
yes, I need to :)
- [07:11:26] <rejon>
majorly
- [07:12:05] <rejon>
I'm really into doing this social aggregator project...will get plenty of time to hCard out in the near future
- [07:12:24] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-examples * Tantek * (+4250) created from reviews-formats page
- [07:16:45] <kingryan>
rejon, have you heard about rhyzomatic ?
- [07:16:59] <kingryan>
its another social-network-aggregator sort of thing
- [07:20:35] <mfbot>
[[review-formats]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/review-formats * Tantek * (+3085)
- [07:24:52] * rejon checks it out
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- [07:38:06] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4430 * Tantek * (+212) see review-examples, review-formats for latest.
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- [08:19:53] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4431 * ChrisRG * (+6) Examples - updated REBOL entry
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- [08:49:53] <rejon>
night all thx!
- [08:50:36] * rejon (n=rejon@adsl-71-132-243-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit ("Bye! Catch me at http://www.rejon.org/")
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- [09:03:29] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [09:19:14] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [11:51:13] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
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- [13:36:15] <jibot>
amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
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- [13:40:28] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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- [15:11:29] <bkdelong>
Another LazyWeb question......do we list sites/services looking for hCard and hCalendar markup? Is anyone aggregating it yet?
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- [15:23:00] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [15:34:34] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:03:47] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4432 * Tantek * (+18) Introduction -
- [16:05:08] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4433 * Tantek * (+9)
- [16:06:14] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4434 * Tantek * (+45)
- [16:06:30] <mfbot>
[[review-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats&diff=0&oldid=4435 * Tantek * (+9)
- [16:08:21] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4436 * Tantek * (+166)
- [16:10:02] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4437 * Tantek * (+81) Exploratory discussions -
- [16:15:13] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4438 * B.K. DeLong * (+139) Centralized Implementations -
- [16:15:49] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4439 * B.K. DeLong * (-5) TV.com -
- [16:19:23] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N150P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [16:19:23] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [16:21:15] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4440 * B.K. DeLong * (+184) Centralized Implementations -
- [16:22:58] <dglazkov>
?help
- [16:23:25] <bkdelong>
No jibot
- [16:23:30] <bkdelong>
alas.
- [16:23:38] <bkdelong>
Wait
- [16:23:43] <bkdelong>
ignore me. Sheesh
- [16:24:14] <dglazkov>
?learn dglazkov is lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [16:24:14] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [16:24:34] <dglazkov>
me soo pretty
- [16:24:36] <bkdelong>
You need to forgetme first
- [16:24:43] <bkdelong>
right?
- [16:24:57] <dglazkov>
not necessarily. I just wanted to add info.
- [16:25:02] <dglazkov>
the geo crap
- [16:25:06] <bkdelong>
or did you just add that to the end with a learn and it keeps adding "and" and....I'm an idiot for asking
- [16:25:17] <dglazkov>
I call it geocrapical information
- [16:25:21] <bkdelong>
Sorry. Trying to do too much at once
- [16:25:40] <dglazkov>
np
- [16:25:53] <bkdelong>
?learn bkdelong is lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
- [16:25:54] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
- [16:26:20] <dglazkov>
?help
- [16:26:41] <dglazkov>
?whois *
- [16:26:41] <jibot>
* is everything and at http://jibot.joi.ito.com:8080/braindump.rpy and yarr
- [16:26:47] <dglazkov>
heh
- [16:31:13] <bkdelong>
Do we have a microformat for FAQS? ie semantically linking a question with its answer?
- [16:32:00] <dglazkov>
I don't think there's a format per se
- [16:32:32] <bkdelong>
Hrm...
- [16:33:35] <trovster>
Is anyone on efnet? If so, join this channel there.
- [16:33:55] <bkdelong>
Why duplicate?
- [16:36:09] <trovster>
Because some people don't use freenode?
- [16:38:27] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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- [16:46:11] <qid>
bkdelong: I seem to recall something about that... gut response says dl/dt/dd
- [16:46:43] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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- [16:47:06] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
- [16:51:07] <tantekc>
bkdelong, a microformat for FAQs could be interesting
- [16:51:26] <tantekc>
consider starting the research with the examples page: /wiki/faq-examples
- [16:51:36] * tantekc (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [16:53:02] <bkdelong>
Cool, tantek - good idea qid.
- [16:55:04] <RobertBachmann>
FAQs = XOXO + hAtom + X?
- [16:55:20] <bkdelong>
X?
- [16:55:25] <qid>
I can't recall seeing a FAQ that didn't follow a "question followed by answer, possibly with subheadings" format
- [16:56:07] <RobertBachmann>
X=the markup we need to figure out.
- [16:57:21] <bkdelong>
gotcha.
- [16:57:47] <bkdelong>
brb
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- [17:16:46] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [17:24:06] * izo_ (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
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- [17:24:44] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [17:31:37] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:31:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [17:38:26] <tantek>
not sure how an FAQ needs or uses hAtom
- [17:38:37] <tantek>
it does seem like a XOXO at the outside
- [17:38:51] <tantek>
of "Question and Answer" items
- [17:39:11] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2440P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [17:39:19] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
- [17:39:32] <dglazkov>
i don't think hAtom should be a requirement either
- [17:39:48] <dglazkov>
but if somebody wanted to make their FAQs feedable, the should be able to
- [17:40:03] <tantek>
obviously we need to do some research, but it could be as simple as <ul class="xoxo hfaq">, and then inside the individual <li>s, elements with class="question" and class="answer"
- [17:40:04] <dglazkov>
a strawmanish scenario
- [17:40:11] <tantek>
that's my strawman ;)
- [17:40:29] * tantek returns to resolving hReview issues/questions...
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- [17:49:41] <RobertBachmann>
I thougth of hAtom because most FAQs seem to be (similar to) small articles.
- [17:51:24] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:51:43] <tantek>
Robert, the problem is you could generalize that to all prose is similar to small articles
- [17:51:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [17:52:00] <tantek>
the key with hAtom is not small articles, but time based / episodic content
- [17:54:26] <qid>
after looking at the HTML spec, I think the definition of DL is vague enough that you could use it for a FAQ, with the question in DT and the answer in DD
- [17:54:47] <qid>
which would eliminate the need for classes to indicate question vs. answer
- [17:58:38] * _TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:58:46] <bkdelong>
Actually, at least giving an example with a FAQ as a fee would be great. Then you can see everytime it's updated or added to.
- [17:59:47] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [18:04:30] <RobertBachmann>
hAtom might make sense in some cases in others it won't. Anyway let's defer this until we got past the example collection.
- [18:06:03] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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- [18:08:05] <bkdelong>
Hixie, you there?
- [18:10:26] * ceedub is now known as cee-dub
- [18:23:17] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:23:17] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [18:24:27] * taare_ (i=taare@ti100710a081-8028.bb.online.no) has joined #microformats
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- [18:30:37] <bkdelong>
trovster: I just meant it seems very fracturing to have discussion on two different IRC networks regardless of whether people ONLY use EFNet or not. Is there any logging or synchronization of this channel?
- [18:32:03] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:35:07] <tantek>
bk, see /topic
- [18:35:31] <trovster>
Heh, yes, there is.
- [18:36:20] <bkdelong>
I know ours is logged, tantek. I meant the EFnet one. ;)
- [18:37:02] <tantek>
how many folks in the EFnet channel?
- [18:37:06] <trovster>
No, there is no logging in that channel. I just started it.
- [18:37:21] * taare (i=taare@ti100710a081-3363.bb.online.no) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [18:37:32] <trovster>
There are 4 people, who joined after I mentioned it in the op channel for #css
- [18:38:00] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [18:38:06] <tantek>
trovster, could you set the topic to the EFNET channel to "Go join irc://irc.freenode.net/#microformats" ;)
- [18:38:36] <trovster>
I could, but I'm not going to!
- [18:38:43] <trovster>
# Microformats - http://microformats.org | rel="freenode" | http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/
- [18:39:18] * taare_ is now known as taare
- [18:41:20] <mfbot>
[[xmdp-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-examples&diff=0&oldid=4441 * Tantek * (+112) added AOL ModuleT
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- [18:58:22] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:58:35] <LTjake>
hello.
- [18:59:25] <trovster>
woo. I'm see "you" in a few months.
- [19:00:56] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [19:02:17] <LTjake>
i'm working on updating the lucene webservice (lucene-ws.sf.net) to be a valid atomstore and valid opensearch target -- at the same time someone suggested i might look at XOXO as a good way to describe a lucene document (a bunch of fields with key/value pair attributes)...
- [19:02:30] <LTjake>
it seems kinda verbose, but is it a good idea no-less?
- [19:03:12] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:03:25] <tantek>
hello LTjake, welcome!
- [19:03:43] <tantek>
yes, XOXO output works well for describing lists of key-value pairs
- [19:04:12] <LTjake>
(brb phone :)
- [19:07:58] <tantek>
bbiab
- [19:08:07] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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- [19:11:09] <Hixie>
bkdelong: am now
- [19:14:39] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
- [19:17:30] <qid>
bkdelong: tag, you're it
- [19:20:35] <trovster>
Anyone thought of a microformat for comments?
- [19:21:22] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:24:01] <qid>
I saw some pages related to that on the wiki
- [19:24:40] <qid>
http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats
- [19:25:12] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:25:32] <qid>
looks like that's as far as it's gotten
- [19:32:02] <LTjake>
is it legit to mark items in an XOXO with a certain class to identify them as "special"?
- [19:32:36] <KevinMarks>
yes, classes are additive
- [19:32:54] <KevinMarks>
though the existing xoxo parsers will ignore them
- [19:34:16] <LTjake>
great.
- [19:36:26] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2411P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [19:36:26] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [19:43:07] <RobertBachmann>
trovster: what's the other channel good for?
- [19:43:45] <trovster>
Talking with people who are interested in microformats, who are on efnet
- [19:45:12] <RobertBachmann>
Is there any difference between efnet and freenode?
- [19:45:20] <trovster>
Yes.
- [19:45:26] <trovster>
One's efnet. One's freenode.
- [19:45:33] <RobertBachmann>
;-)
- [19:47:27] <RobertBachmann>
efnet is bigger?
- [19:47:46] <bewest|work>
I think efnet is less focused on technology
- [19:48:31] <bewest|work>
it's like the difference between google and yahoo?
- [19:50:35] <othermaciej>
which is google and which is yahoo?
- [19:54:04] * limbo_ (n=egloben@hrn53502.cs.usfca.edu) has joined #microformats
- [19:54:04] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
- [19:54:25] * limbo_ pets jibot
- [20:03:07] <bewest|work>
freenode is to google as efnet is to yahoo
- [20:04:17] * Tantek (n=Tantek@70.103.248.130) has joined #microformats
- [20:08:06] <Tantek>
greetings
- [20:08:07] <LTjake>
Tantek: hello again.
- [20:08:17] * Tantek resumes editing review-* related pages
- [20:08:23] <Tantek>
hello LTjake
- [20:08:50] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [20:10:23] <LTjake>
Tantek: here's an example atom entry/xoxo for lucene-ws: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6359
- [20:10:34] <LTjake>
Tantek: it seems horribly verbose :)
- [20:12:49] <mfbot>
[[review-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review-brainstorming * Tantek * (+1463) separated out brainstorming bits from old reviews-formats page
- [20:15:35] <mfbot>
[[review-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples&diff=0&oldid=4442 * Tantek * (-311) clean up aggregate analysis of examples
- [20:17:37] <Tantek>
LTjake - yes, I think that's more verbose than it needs to be. ;)
- [20:17:56] <LTjake>
Tantek: is there a better way to write that?
- [20:18:05] <LTjake>
Tantek: or does that mean not using XOXO? :)
- [20:18:56] <othermaciej>
xoxo has shorthand ways of writing some common properties
- [20:19:19] <KevinMarks>
primarly ones around links
- [20:19:21] <othermaciej>
test, description, url, title, type, rel
- [20:19:26] <othermaciej>
*text I mean
- [20:19:35] <Tantek>
it also feels like some of the hierarchy
- [20:19:39] <Tantek>
is inverted
- [20:20:30] <Tantek>
it looks like all the <li>s in that example should actually be just one item
- [20:20:30] <KevinMarks>
type text seems very redundant
- [20:20:53] <othermaciej>
the "Special Properties" part of the spec is kind of vague though - not clear if you are allowed to use the <a> shorthand if you don't have a URL
- [20:21:04] <othermaciej>
or whether the shorthand was meant to be the only shorthand defined, or just one example
- [20:21:09] <LTjake>
Tantek: each li represents one field of the document.
- [20:21:32] <Tantek>
LTjake - that's misuse of the li I think
- [20:21:44] <Tantek>
each dt/dd pair should represent one field of the document
- [20:21:44] <LTjake>
Tantek: the first text node of the <li> is the value, and then the <dl> is the list of properties of that field.
- [20:21:57] <Tantek>
e.g. instead of <li>4
- [20:21:58] <Tantek>
<dl>
- [20:21:58] <Tantek>
<dt>name</dt>
- [20:21:58] <Tantek>
<dd>chapter</dd>
- [20:21:58] <Tantek>
<dt>type</dt>
- [20:21:58] <Tantek>
<dd>text</dd>
- [20:21:59] <Tantek>
</dl>
- [20:22:01] <Tantek>
</li>
- [20:22:03] <Tantek>
it should be
- [20:22:09] <Tantek>
<dt>chapter</dt><dd>4</dd>
- [20:22:38] <LTjake>
where does "type" go?
- [20:22:41] <Tantek>
no need
- [20:22:44] <LTjake>
yes.
- [20:22:48] <Tantek>
they're all text/keyword anyway
- [20:22:56] <LTjake>
that's just that example.
- [20:23:17] <Tantek>
XOXO items and fields are all untyped
- [20:23:19] <LTjake>
there can also be other properties depending on how the field was indexed in lucene.
- [20:23:58] <Tantek>
sure
- [20:24:04] <Tantek>
but all those properties can go in one <dl>
- [20:24:10] <Tantek>
for the item
- [20:24:13] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [20:24:36] <LTjake>
so each field is a <dl> then?
- [20:24:38] <KevinMarks>
one dl for the record, with <dt> for field names and <dd> for values
- [20:24:50] <Tantek>
no each field is not itself a <dl>
- [20:24:53] * chimezie (n=cogbuji@fw1.fourthought.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:25:00] <Tantek>
each field is a <dt>fieldname</dt><dd>fieldvalue</dd>
- [20:25:15] <Tantek>
one <dl> contains all the fields for an item
- [20:25:17] <KevinMarks>
if you want to type the values, you can use classes - we have done some work on thinking about this
- [20:25:37] <Tantek>
for now though, it doesn't look like there is any need
- [20:25:55] <Tantek>
LTjake, try doing it again, compressing using the transform I gave you above for the "chapter" field.
- [20:26:02] <Tantek>
let me know when you've updated the example
- [20:26:09] <LTjake>
i can have fields that have properties like unsorted="1" unindexed="1" ... where do those go?
- [20:26:37] <mfbot>
[[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4443 * Tantek * (+13) Thoughts on a Microformat -
- [20:26:45] <KevinMarks>
http://opendarwin.org/~drernie/xoxo-datatypes.html is one attempt
- [20:27:38] <Tantek>
LTjake: those don't make sense "per item"
- [20:27:41] <KevinMarks>
is there a URI format defined for Bible verses? seems liek there should be
- [20:27:47] <Tantek>
since those are aspects of those fields that are universal across items
- [20:28:10] <Tantek>
Kevin - maybe that's something to delegate to Rome. ;)
- [20:28:46] <bewest|work>
KevinMarks: bible citations would be a subset of general citations
- [20:29:20] <KevinMarks>
well, there is a unifom convention
- [20:29:30] <Tantek>
hah
- [20:29:31] <KevinMarks>
Genesis 4:1
- [20:29:33] <LTjake>
Tantek: sorry, "univeral across items"? not every field in the document is indexed the same.
- [20:29:44] <Tantek>
"uniform convention" in the context of religion is a way to get into a lot of fights.
- [20:30:07] <LTjake>
Tantek: but maybe i didn't catch your statement right. :)
- [20:30:14] <bewest|work>
Tantek: yet there is a convention for notating bible quotes
- [20:30:15] <Tantek>
LTjake, but a field is indexed the same no matter which item it is on
- [20:30:31] <Tantek>
therefore there is no need to say "unsorted" on a field for EVERY SINGLE ITEM
- [20:30:33] <bewest|work>
books chapter:verse
- [20:30:37] <Tantek>
therefore it doesn't belong there in the hierarchy
- [20:30:39] <KevinMarks>
well, 'chapter and verse' is the cliche for exact reference
- [20:31:06] <LTjake>
Tantek: okay, it looks like i'm getting my terminoligy mixed up -- i'm equating 1 item to 1 field in a lucene document.
- [20:31:20] <Tantek>
items have properties/fields
- [20:31:28] <bewest|work>
book chapter[-chapter]-verse[[portion] -verse[portion] ...]
- [20:31:41] <Tantek>
a document is just a collection of items
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- [20:31:45] <bewest|work>
erm, something like that
- [20:33:18] <Tantek>
LTjake, just attempt the transform I recommended above and let's see what it looks like
- [20:33:31] <LTjake>
Tantek: started... :)
- [20:33:35] <Tantek>
cool. :)
- [20:37:51] <LTjake>
http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6360
- [20:38:02] <LTjake>
okay. there it is, though i've lost my type attributes.
- [20:38:14] <LTjake>
sorry for being particularly dense. :)
- [20:38:29] <KevinMarks>
thats much better
- [20:38:52] <LTjake>
KevinMarks: though incomplete...
- [20:38:54] * Tantek (n=Tantek@70.103.248.130) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [20:39:01] <KevinMarks>
could updated be a human-readable date?
- [20:39:45] <LTjake>
the human readable one is in the <entry> part
- [20:42:04] <KevinMarks>
(presumably 3000BC or so, or 1611)
- [20:42:58] <KevinMarks>
no, thats machien reable for Atom
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- [20:43:44] <LTjake>
well, the <content> section needs to be exactly what is stored.
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- [20:45:39] <KevinMarks>
sorry, I missed the original use case
- [20:45:45] <LTjake>
no prob :)
- [20:45:52] <KevinMarks>
yes, you do want a reversiblr transform
- [20:46:06] <LTjake>
it's a lucene indexed document is all.
- [20:48:30] <LTjake>
KevinMarks: how would you add any custom attributes to that structure?
- [20:49:26] <KevinMarks>
the general principle is that the stuff you want people to see is outside <> and the stuff fro computers is inside
- [20:49:47] <KevinMarks>
so you coudl add classes on the dt's
- [20:50:19] <LTjake>
i don't get how you'd do key-value pairs in classes :)
- [20:50:29] <KevinMarks>
though I think the attributes are a property of the whole column of fields, not the individual record
- [20:52:05] <LTjake>
for example, if i wanted to add "cheese => chedar" as an attribute of the <dt>id</dt> entry ....
- [20:52:31] <qid>
LTjake: that makes no sense though
- [20:52:37] <KevinMarks>
right
- [20:52:44] <KevinMarks>
pick real examples
- [20:52:53] <LTjake>
fine, i'll go back to type, then.
- [20:52:59] <LTjake>
type => keyword
- [20:53:12] <KevinMarks>
<dt><dd> is the way to do key value
- [20:53:13] <qid>
you'd have <dt>cheese</dt><dd>cheddar</dd>
- [20:53:16] <KevinMarks>
and you cna nest them
- [20:53:36] <LTjake>
so it would be a nested <dl> for any properties
- [20:53:55] <qid>
type is generally fairly simple, you could do that as a class on the dt
- [20:54:27] <qid>
as in <dt class="guid">id</dt><dd>574289674895649247356457894685 etc.</dd>
- [20:54:28] <LTjake>
http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/6361
- [20:54:52] <LTjake>
^-- nested like so?
- [20:55:09] <KevinMarks>
though a GUID is a bit of a foul think to expose to humans
- [20:55:10] <qid>
I can't think of anything besides type that would need to be attached to a key-value pair
- [20:55:28] <qid>
wait, sorry, the type should be attached to the DD I think
- [20:55:46] <KevinMarks>
well, if it's a keyword, you should use rel="tag" if you can
- [20:55:53] * lmorchard (n=deusx@63.102.87.27) has joined #microformats
- [20:55:56] <qid>
I dunno... either could work
- [20:56:22] <KevinMarks>
though why is 'Genesos_4_1' a keyword?
- [20:56:48] <KevinMarks>
maybe I'm just not understanding the impled schema here
- [20:57:03] <qid>
but you could do <dt>chapter</dt><dd class="string">Genesis</dd><dt>verse</dt><dd class="int">4</dd> for example
- [20:57:34] <KevinMarks>
though class="string" is best left implicit
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- [20:57:46] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [20:57:51] <LTjake>
keyword means something very specific in lucene. it means that is: stored, indexed and not tokenized
- [20:58:11] <LTjake>
type="unindexed" means: stored, not indexed and tokenized
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- [21:01:24] <LTjake>
KevinMarks: but, in general, i could any number of random key value pairs to add to any term.
- [21:02:14] <KevinMarks>
"in general" is a dangerous way to start a microformats conversation...
- [21:02:22] <LTjake>
heh
- [21:02:39] <KevinMarks>
XOXO allows arbitrarily nested lists and key-value things
- [21:02:54] <KevinMarks>
it maps well to data structrues in Python and Perl and PHP and so on
- [21:02:59] * lmorchard (n=deusx@63.102.87.27) Quit ()
- [21:03:09] <LTjake>
was i right to nest on the <dd> or should i nest on the <dt>?
- [21:04:06] <qid>
I think if you're going to have a term that contains many arbitrary key-value pairs, you should stick another dl inside the dt
- [21:04:23] <bewest|work>
qid: you mean dd?
- [21:04:27] <qid>
yes.
- [21:04:37] <KevinMarks>
yes, within dd
- [21:04:58] <qid>
dt and dd are way too easy to confuse
- [21:05:05] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [21:05:29] <KevinMarks>
mapping to a DB is trickier
- [21:05:41] <KevinMarks>
as they don't nest, whereas data strutures do
- [21:06:04] <qid>
yeah, you'll have to normalize all this if you want to put it in a relational database
- [21:06:48] <KevinMarks>
really, a <table> is a better mapping for a relational db
- [21:06:48] <therealadam>
there's a good chapter on doing tree structures in phil greenspun's sql primer thing
- [21:06:50] <LTjake>
i'm using it for a wire format, is all.
- [21:07:51] <bewest|work>
therealadam: I saw some nice stuff by joe celko (I think)
- [21:08:14] <bewest|work>
has anyone used Joe Celko's SQL for Smarties?
- [21:08:20] <qid>
I'm getting a bad feeling of "encapsulating XML in XML" here when you start moving to arbitrary key-value pairs
- [21:08:33] <bkdelong>
bbl
- [21:08:52] <LTjake>
qid: pretty much :)
- [21:09:32] <KevinMarks>
well, I use XOXO that way internally
- [21:10:01] <bewest|work>
qid: how is it any more than encapsulating data in xhtml?
- [21:10:10] <KevinMarks>
moving key value pairs between languages
- [21:10:17] <edsu>
encapsulating xml in xml :)
- [21:10:21] <KevinMarks>
wrapping it in Atom is an extra thing
- [21:10:29] <bewest|work>
ah
- [21:12:18] <qid>
shoot, there was an article somewhere that was going through the history of blog protocols that explained what I was talking about
- [21:13:37] <LTjake>
i gotta run -- work's over. i'll be back to harass you guys later. :)
- [21:13:41] <LTjake>
thanks for the help thus far!
- [21:14:15] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [21:14:21] <qid>
I could've sworn it was on xml.com...
- [21:14:40] <KevinMarks>
was it by markp by any chance?
- [21:15:20] <qid>
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/15/dive.html <-- here it is
- [21:15:56] <qid>
"So we've reinvented XML, over RPC, over XML. Badly."
- [21:17:06] <therealadam>
of course, markp always reports on the best-case scenario :)
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factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
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- [21:44:42] <Tantek>
darn LTjake left
- [21:45:31] <Tantek>
i'm not sure about <dl class="xoxo">
- [21:45:40] <Tantek>
i think this should be <ul class="xoxo">
- [21:45:46] <Tantek>
and then for the item, use the text
- [21:46:05] <Tantek>
<li>And the man knew...
- [21:46:10] <Tantek>
and then inside that <li>
- [21:46:19] <Tantek>
include the <dl> with the rest of the properties
- [21:46:29] <Tantek>
and that should just about do it
- [21:46:49] <Tantek>
ok, back to hReview work
- [21:46:51] <qid>
well, I got the impression he was using this as a wire format for some row in a table
- [21:47:09] <qid>
so he explicity wanted those key-value pairs
- [21:47:15] <Tantek>
sure
- [21:47:20] <Tantek>
those go in the <dl> as he has them
- [21:47:41] <Tantek>
in XOXO, there are a handful of "special" keys that get optimized in the markup
- [21:47:42] <qid>
but then the sub-key-value-pairs attached to a key-value pair is a little weird
- [21:47:45] <Tantek>
see the XOXO spec for details
- [21:48:06] <Tantek>
my point was that the sub-key-value-pairs are both unnecessary and undesirable at that point in the data
- [21:48:19] <Tantek>
since the sub-key-value-pairs are same for that field on all items
- [21:48:45] <qid>
well if he does <ul class="xoxo"> with a <dl> inside the <li>, now it's always a list of one item... so why have the list...
- [21:50:42] <Tantek>
the presumption is he might return more than one item
- [21:50:50] <Tantek>
and yes, the minimal XOXO document is a list of one item :)
- [21:51:17] <qid>
well, with the format example he used, it looked like it was intended to be just a single item
- [21:51:37] <Tantek>
i thought the single item aspect was just for the purpose of the example
- [21:51:40] <Tantek>
not the general rule
- [21:52:10] <Tantek>
hey is Benjamine Carlyle here?
- [21:52:17] <dglazkov>
why use XOXO for a wire format?
- [21:52:27] <Tantek>
dglazkov, easier to debug etc.
- [21:52:43] <Tantek>
avoids having to write a DTD
- [21:52:45] <Tantek>
etc.
- [21:53:14] <dglazkov>
I guess ...
- [21:53:42] <KevinMarks>
I use it for a wire format a lot
- [21:54:03] <KevinMarks>
to pass data structures cross language
- [21:55:34] <othermaciej>
it is kind of neat that you could have a XOXO format list and have the same document be both machine-parsable and suitable for display to humans when styled with CSS
- [21:55:49] * othermaciej states the obvious
- [21:55:56] <dglazkov>
KevinMarks: arbitrary data structures?
- [21:56:12] <othermaciej>
so given that, even when using it in a "pure wire format" context you may as well use a format that will enable future display to humans
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- [21:56:39] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [21:56:48] <Tantek>
othermaciej, that's only obvious once you "get it", until then it is very non-obvious to most folks, especially programmers.
- [21:57:00] * Tantek encourages othermaciej to continuing "stating the obvious" :)
- [21:57:00] <KevinMarks>
well, ones without a strong binary component
- [21:57:27] <Tantek>
another reason is that many "wire" formats evolve into something that is eventually displayed to the user
- [21:57:30] <othermaciej>
well one place where this especially strikes me as useful is things like blogrolls
- [21:57:37] <othermaciej>
no need to import/export OPML
- [21:57:42] <othermaciej>
just have the blogroll *be* XOXO
- [21:57:46] <othermaciej>
no import/export step
- [21:57:47] <Tantek>
another reason is that many "wire" formats actually represent human level data, so why not keep it human friendly?
- [21:57:51] <othermaciej>
it seems so obviously right
- [21:57:56] <Tantek>
precisely othermaciej
- [21:58:14] <Tantek>
in many ways, XOXO proved that OPML was never necessary as "yet another specialty XML format"
- [21:58:28] <chimezie>
5~5~/quit
- [21:58:29] <KevinMarks>
it is very handy to be able to just dump the data structure into a browser
- [21:58:30] * chimezie (n=cogbuji@fw1.fourthought.com) Quit ("chimezie has no reason")
- [21:58:48] <Tantek>
the whole tendency by programmers/architects to keep coming up with specialty XML formats has been acknolwedged by Tim Bray as a very bad tendency, and one to be avoided
- [21:59:31] <Tantek>
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/01/08/No-New-XML-Languages
- [21:59:38] * Atamido wants a javascript guru to fancify his XOXO for him.
- [21:59:55] <othermaciej>
why would you need JS to fancify your XOXO?
- [22:00:07] <othermaciej>
(I'm a JavaScript guru but I don't see why you would need it)
- [22:00:14] <othermaciej>
unless you want to make a collapsable list or something
- [22:00:25] <Atamido>
Doing stuff like this. http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/
- [22:00:28] <othermaciej>
really the best thing for that would be XBL/HTC
- [22:00:43] <othermaciej>
but those aren't portable enough to use
- [22:01:14] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [22:01:25] <othermaciej>
Atamido: you could do that with pretty minimal javascript and some CSS
- [22:01:41] <othermaciej>
Atamido: here's what I'd do
- [22:02:06] <KevinMarks>
just use chris holland's script
- [22:02:09] <othermaciej>
give the li with the disclosure triangle class="collapsible"
- [22:02:26] <KevinMarks>
thats part of the point of standardising class names
- [22:02:27] <othermaciej>
and an onclick handler that adds class "collapsed" if present, removes otherwise
- [22:02:33] <KevinMarks>
his js will work on your xoxo
- [22:02:37] <othermaciej>
or something like that
- [22:02:39] <Atamido>
I need an effect a bit more complex than what Chris is providing.
- [22:02:56] <Atamido>
But it is still far down on my todo list.
- [22:03:03] <KevinMarks>
les orchard did one that enabled editing
- [22:03:05] <Atamido>
I have other, more pressing matters.
- [22:03:18] <KevinMarks>
well, use chris's in the meantime
- [22:03:25] <othermaciej>
then you can have CSS rules that give appropriate list marker images for li.collapsible.collapsed and li.collapsible
- [22:03:55] <othermaciej>
and you can have li.collapsible.collapsed ul { display: none; }
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- [22:04:06] <othermaciej>
which will automatically hide sublists when you set the right class
- [22:04:10] <othermaciej>
this would be a trivial script
- [22:04:15] <othermaciej>
like maybe 5 or 6 lines of JS
- [22:04:18] <othermaciej>
if you have the right CSS rules
- [22:04:46] * limbo_gone is now known as limbo_
- [22:04:52] <othermaciej>
(no idea how chris holland's script works or if XOXO has standard ways of representing collapse/expand)
- [22:04:53] <KevinMarks>
better, do the 'collapsible' at the <ol> level
- [22:05:08] <KevinMarks>
class="compact" means collapsed
- [22:05:29] <othermaciej>
in the page linked, the title still shows
- [22:05:37] <othermaciej>
so you'd probably need a :first-child rule
- [22:05:44] <othermaciej>
to make that not hide
- [22:05:48] <KevinMarks>
http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/outlines.js
- [22:06:22] <othermaciej>
that looks surprisingly complicated
- [22:06:47] <othermaciej>
also extremely weird to set a mouseup handler on the document as the way to catch clicks
- [22:07:19] <othermaciej>
(because (a) why not onclick and (b) why not on the individual elements affected by click)
- [22:07:52] <othermaciej>
also setting window.onload is bad because it will fight with any inline onload handler set on the body
- [22:08:03] * othermaciej wonders where to file bug reports on this script
- [22:08:28] <Atamido>
Not using onclick drastically simplifies the HTML.
- [22:08:48] <othermaciej>
how is it any simpler than using onmouseup?
- [22:08:49] <KevinMarks>
the point is the JS decorates the XOXO to add the handlers
- [22:09:00] <othermaciej>
I get that, it's just doing it wrong
- [22:09:06] <othermaciej>
using wrong event, attaching event to wrong object
- [22:09:10] <KevinMarks>
sorry, that was for Atamido
- [22:09:23] <KevinMarks>
you pass in XOXO, call a script and it makes it active
- [22:10:46] <othermaciej>
oh I see, html4 has a standard compact attribute
- [22:10:53] <othermaciej>
(though I have no idea what UAs do with it)
- [22:11:51] <othermaciej>
is there a stylesheet meant to go with this?
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- [22:14:44] <Tantek>
i thought Les Orchard's presentation of XOXO was quite good
- [22:15:36] <mfbot>
[[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4444 * Tantek * (+1059) how to review a stock
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- [22:23:47] <mfbot>
[[reviews-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats&diff=0&oldid=4445 * Tantek * (+27) Current Reviews Formats -
- [22:33:10] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|afk
- [22:33:24] <mfbot>
[[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4446 * Tantek * (+944) hReview 0.3 brainstorming summary
- [22:39:48] <Tantek>
i've captured the current set of changes being strongly considered (most already accepted by the editors/authors) for hReview 0.3 in the review-brainstorming page.
- [22:40:20] <Tantek>
please take a look. If you have additional issues or feedback, add them respectively to the /wiki/hreview-issues and /wiki/hreview-feedback pages
- [22:40:42] <Tantek>
I'm planning to post the hReview draft in the next 24-48 hours, so now is the time to speak up to make sure any outstanding issues get handled.
- [22:40:56] <Tantek>
bbiab
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Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [23:33:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [23:36:00] <jibot>
tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
- [23:37:43] <KevinMarks>
hi tara
- [23:37:59] <tantek>
welcome Tara
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- [23:40:23] <Enric>
Hey Tara ;)
- [23:42:39] <tara>
hello Tantek
- [23:42:42] * kingryan|afk is now known as kingryan
- [23:42:43] <tara>
hello kevinmarks
- [23:42:45] <tara>
hello enric
- [23:46:41] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [23:47:08] * TantekC (n=Tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:48:06] <Enric>
How's it going, t?
- [23:50:16] <tara>
good...busy at work (although I'm taking a wee break to chat with my friends and check in on the whole world of Microformats)
- [23:51:18] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: I came up with a much nicer / simpler version of chris holland's collapsible list thingie
- [23:51:24] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: should I put it somewhere?
- [23:51:42] <tantek>
othermaciej, definitely
- [23:51:49] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: turns out that the compact attribute on lists is not really a good thing to use in this case
- [23:51:54] <tantek>
why?
- [23:52:12] <othermaciej>
tantek: you want the style of the li containing the list to change on collapse
- [23:52:13] <tantek>
the spec even has the CSS necessary to make it work ;)
- [23:52:25] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
- [23:52:36] <othermaciej>
tantek: and CSS selectors can't be based on attributes of your children
- [23:52:42] <tantek>
hmm...
- [23:52:45] <othermaciej>
I did this:
- [23:52:46] <othermaciej>
li.collapsible.collapsed {
- [23:52:46] <othermaciej>
list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle.gif')
- [23:52:49] <othermaciej>
}
- [23:52:52] <othermaciej>
li.collapsible {
- [23:52:53] <tantek>
why not have the nested list draw the triangle?
- [23:52:54] <othermaciej>
list-style-image:url('http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/img/triangle_down.gif')
- [23:52:58] <othermaciej>
}
- [23:53:05] <tantek>
because the nested list is what actually indicates that there *should* be a triangle
- [23:53:10] <tantek>
not the containing list item
- [23:53:16] <tantek>
i.e.
- [23:53:22] <othermaciej>
you could do that, if you made the list collapse to the first item
- [23:53:25] <tantek>
existence of nested ul/ol ----> draw a triangle
- [23:53:31] <othermaciej>
rather than being contained in an li that has the heading that's not part of the list
- [23:53:41] <tantek>
does the nested ul/ol have compact attribute? ----> draw the triangle "closed"
- [23:53:45] <othermaciej>
but you then couldn't use bullets at all on list items
- [23:53:58] <othermaciej>
because you would get a bullet and then a triangle inside
- [23:54:16] <othermaciej>
I wish we had lisppaste in here
- [23:54:17] <tantek>
the point is
- [23:54:25] <tantek>
you don't want bullets on all list items in an outline
- [23:54:38] <tantek>
bullets on leaf list items in an outline are noise
- [23:54:41] <tantek>
visual noise
- [23:54:58] <tantek>
e.g. look at a Finder list view
- [23:55:01] <othermaciej>
I agree (they are certainly not there in OS X outline views, which is the style I like)
- [23:55:10] <tantek>
notice that non-folders lack anything like "bullets"
- [23:55:12] <tantek>
right
- [23:55:15] <othermaciej>
ok I'll do a version that precludes bullets
- [23:55:16] <tantek>
problem solved ;)
- [23:55:32] <othermaciej>
still need somewhere to paste it when done
- [23:55:53] <tantek>
you mean like a site to upload some HTML?
- [23:56:01] * tantek wonders if othermaciej has a blog
- [23:56:05] <othermaciej>
well, mostly I'd like to show the source
- [23:56:09] <othermaciej>
I don't have a working one right now
- [23:56:56] <KevinMarks>
mac.com
- [23:56:58] <othermaciej>
I could put it on the wiki as source
- [23:57:24] <othermaciej>
I didn't do dl support yet though so it wouldn't be that great
- [23:57:32] <othermaciej>
tantek: so you think lists should collapse to their first item?
- [23:57:43] <othermaciej>
tantek: rather than there being a separate header outside the list?
- [23:57:49] <othermaciej>
cause that seems semantically wrong to me
- [23:59:58] <othermaciej>
yeah, see, looking at the xoxo example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Simple_XOXO_Fragment
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