IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-11
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:00] <dotBen>
bullshit
- [00:00:14] <KevinMarks>
say why you think they suck and we can make progress
- [00:00:14] <TantekC>
LOL
- [00:00:16] <dotBen>
ok look for the comments thing - I think I would like to go away and do some writing up if that's ok
- [00:00:23] <TantekC>
so who wants to start http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples
- [00:00:23] <TantekC>
?
- [00:00:39] <TantekC>
dotBen, do you agree with the methodology of doing research on real examples before brainstorming?
- [00:00:40] <KevinMarks>
my hands are full
- [00:00:57] <dotBen>
tantek: sure
- [00:01:03] <dotBen>
but I've done a bit in my head already
- [00:01:08] <TantekC>
then let's start with the examples
- [00:01:19] <TantekC>
i understand, a lot of folks have done lots of bits in their heads
- [00:01:30] <TantekC>
we've already had at least two failed efforts like that
- [00:01:40] <factoryjoe>
hehehe
- [00:01:43] <TantekC>
because the problem is that the research was actually not done or not documented
- [00:01:43] <factoryjoe>
busted!
- [00:01:44] <dotBen>
well we've kind of touched on the problem
- [00:01:50] <dotBen>
hey you know what
- [00:01:53] <BenjaminCarlyle>
dotBen: microformats can be html as well as xhtml
- [00:01:54] <TantekC>
insufficient
- [00:02:03] <dotBen>
I'm going to write some stuff up
- [00:02:07] <dotBen>
and come back to you
- [00:02:09] <TantekC>
we need to document the examples so we all have a common context / data set to point to to analyze
- [00:02:12] <BenjaminCarlyle>
Parsers just tend to "tidy" before processing.
- [00:02:13] <dotBen>
not a solution just a problem spec
- [00:02:22] <dotBen>
and if you want to talk about it over here in the meantime, that's fine
- [00:02:25] <TantekC>
dotBen, feel free to do that also
- [00:02:34] <TantekC>
on the microformats wiki
- [00:02:40] <TantekC>
a problem statement is an *excellent* way to start
- [00:02:40] <KevinMarks>
problem spec is good
- [00:02:50] <dotBen>
I also need to work out whether I want to dedicate my time to a 'microformat' because I'm not 100% convinced of the direction some of your stuff has gone in
- [00:02:56] <KevinMarks>
comments-brainstorming
- [00:03:05] <dotBen>
the xhtml stuff I mean
- [00:03:07] * TantekC wonders if we shoult start this with http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problems
- [00:03:17] <KevinMarks>
well, tell us why you dislike html
- [00:03:27] <TantekC>
Kevin, please don't open ratholes
- [00:03:36] <dotBen>
because it's sucky to parse and ingest into a database
- [00:03:44] <TantekC>
dotBen, let's punt on those issues for now
- [00:03:50] <TantekC>
regardless, the research will help
- [00:03:59] <TantekC>
let's cross those bridges when we get to them
- [00:04:06] <dotBen>
well it will help but it might not be a direction I want to take my time towards
- [00:04:12] <factoryjoe>
yeah i think focusing on the comment stuff is a better use of dotBen's efforts
- [00:04:13] <dotBen>
I don't want to be a stick in the mud here folks!
- [00:04:17] <KevinMarks>
the point of microformats is to make it less sucky
- [00:04:20] <factoryjoe>
i can twist his arm when he comes to town to stay w/ me
- [00:04:24] <TantekC>
the research will help regardless of the direction
- [00:04:27] <dotBen>
lol
- [00:04:29] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [00:04:31] <dotBen>
ok
- [00:04:36] <factoryjoe>
KevinMarks: you should come to the dotBen out of towner i'm planning
- [00:04:37] <TantekC>
so will the problem statement
- [00:04:44] <dotBen>
put it this way
- [00:04:46] <factoryjoe>
and you can bring your cluebat and isight
- [00:04:46] <dotBen>
at BBC
- [00:04:51] <KevinMarks>
i'll try
- [00:05:01] <dotBen>
we're not going to release any xhtml stuff or JSON or anything like that
- [00:05:04] <dotBen>
on backstage.bbc.co.uk
- [00:05:09] <KevinMarks>
which town is it out of?
- [00:05:12] <dotBen>
if you want to do that then convert the RSS/XML - that's my view
- [00:05:17] <factoryjoe>
KevinMarks: UK
- [00:05:31] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: we'll school you yet
- [00:05:33] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:05:36] <dotBen>
maybe
- [00:05:36] <TantekC>
dotBen, that's a per publisher question/issue
- [00:05:41] <KevinMarks>
do you have a webpage version ben?
- [00:05:43] <TantekC>
there is no need to debate that
- [00:05:44] <dotBen>
what do ou mean?
- [00:05:58] * dotBen too many conversation threads!
- [00:06:11] <dotBen>
Kevin: version of what?
- [00:06:23] <KevinMarks>
the backstage info
- [00:06:25] <dotBen>
Tantek: what do you mean by "per publisher issue"?
- [00:06:40] <TantekC>
every publisher has their preferred way(s) to publish
- [00:06:49] <dotBen>
well backstage.bbc.co.uk is about releaseing programtic versions of stuff that is on bbc.co.uk
- [00:07:01] <TantekC>
the key here is to adapt to the publisher's way(s) rather than to tell them all to learn a new file type etc.
- [00:07:02] <dotBen>
Tantek: well, the BBC's preferred way is kinda my decision!
- [00:07:18] <TantekC>
awesome!
- [00:07:18] <dotBen>
:)
- [00:07:21] <KevinMarks>
aha, so you cant touch their html
- [00:07:33] <TantekC>
all praise the all(BBC)powerful dotBen!
- [00:07:39] <dotBen>
fucking don't!
- [00:07:44] <dotBen>
the BBC is fucking doing my head in!
- [00:07:54] <dotBen>
it's getting pulled, into the 21st century
- [00:08:02] <dotBen>
but it's kicking and screaming and trying to resist as best it can!
- [00:08:27] <dotBen>
Kevin: you can touch the html if we wanted to
- [00:08:42] <dotBen>
but it's better to have semantically marked up code for CSS use, etc
- [00:08:47] <dotBen>
as it's 99% consumer access
- [00:09:01] <dotBen>
and have XML/RSS feeds within the developer network -- backstage.bbc.co.uk
- [00:09:31] <dotBen>
otherwise we would be over-semantically marking up our HTML - yes, you can bloat it folks!
- [00:09:51] <dotBen>
?
- [00:09:54] <TantekC>
interesting dotBen, we haven't found that to be true yet
- [00:10:16] <dotBen>
you mean marking up your HTML as sematically as possible?
- [00:10:22] <TantekC>
if you could point to some examples of what you consider "over-semantically marking up HTML" perhaps that would help
- [00:10:29] <KevinMarks>
class-based semantics is very compact comapred to xml-based
- [00:10:30] <dotBen>
well, don't forget the BBC isn't a tech company. It's a consumer-facing media company
- [00:10:35] <dotBen>
there are other issues as stake
- [00:10:55] <TantekC>
it's good to hear what the issues are
- [00:10:57] <dotBen>
such as producing light weight code that can be efficiently delivered into Iran
- [00:11:04] <TantekC>
LOL
- [00:11:09] <KevinMarks>
it's not a company, it's corporation organised by Royal Charter
- [00:11:25] <dotBen>
well technically outside the UK it's a company
- [00:11:32] <dotBen>
BBC World
- [00:11:38] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [00:11:39] <KevinMarks>
you mean my 'use the FO monry to take the Creative Archive global' meme is coming?
- [00:11:41] <dotBen>
but from my personal pespective it's corporation
- [00:11:44] <factoryjoe>
ajax could help with that
- [00:11:47] <KevinMarks>
World Service isn't
- [00:11:54] <dotBen>
no, world service isn't
- [00:11:58] <factoryjoe>
portioned page loading
- [00:12:00] * TantekC sets mode -o KevinMarks
- [00:12:05] <dotBen>
but then world service is an even greater example of keeping things light weight
- [00:12:09] <factoryjoe>
when you click a link, only replace the requested content
- [00:12:16] <TantekC>
Kevin gets de-opped for nitpicking unrelated trivia in the microformats channel.
- [00:12:22] <TantekC>
:p
- [00:12:22] <KevinMarks>
heh
- [00:12:25] <factoryjoe>
instead of the nav and header and footer ,etc
- [00:12:32] <factoryjoe>
haha
- [00:12:33] <dotBen>
their audio is only streamed in 36kpbs where as BBC News is 56kbps to keep the costs down and the efficinety of serving into very narrowband locations
- [00:12:44] <dotBen>
ok ok one thread at a time
- [00:12:46] <dotBen>
!
- [00:13:10] <factoryjoe>
sorry
- [00:13:15] <dotBen>
Creative Archive is never going global, btw
- [00:13:21] <dotBen>
and I can't be deopted
- [00:13:24] <dotBen>
mind you I guess I could get booted
- [00:13:32] <dotBen>
I work in the Creative Archive office... trust me
- [00:13:46] * cee-dub is now known as cee-dub|teatime
- [00:14:29] <dotBen>
the ajax 'keep the nav/foote/header' idea would never work either
- [00:14:41] <dotBen>
seriously
- [00:14:42] <factoryjoe>
oh?
- [00:14:52] <dotBen>
you have no idea how the BBC works at all :)
- [00:15:08] <dotBen>
where do I begin
- [00:15:21] <factoryjoe>
well
- [00:15:25] <factoryjoe>
fuggit the bbc than
- [00:15:26] <factoryjoe>
anyway
- [00:15:30] <dotBen>
some of this is going to be critical of the way the BBC is set up so I'd rather take it offline when we meet in person!
- [00:15:32] <factoryjoe>
we were discussing cocomment et al
- [00:15:35] <TantekC>
the narrowband requirements are reasonable
- [00:15:54] <dotBen>
cos I've said some things in this positon before and stuff has got leaked back...!
- [00:15:55] <TantekC>
they apply equally to mobile devices
- [00:16:09] <TantekC>
dotBen, FYI, the channel is logged
- [00:16:17] * TantekC points to /topic
- [00:16:17] <dotBen>
I assumed so
- [00:16:29] <dotBen>
the stuff I will say is:
- [00:16:38] <dotBen>
a) the BBC is one of the first examples of using permalink
- [00:16:45] <dotBen>
we were doing it on the news site in 1997
- [00:16:59] <dotBen>
so having dynamic page loads with ajax looses our permalink for each story structure
- [00:17:10] <dotBen>
which we're very proud of
- [00:17:13] * TantekC looks for 1997 BBC permalink.
- [00:17:22] <dotBen>
one moment, it's on the wikipedia entry
- [00:17:50] <factoryjoe>
i wasn't really look back
- [00:18:02] <factoryjoe>
i was looking at ways to deliver content narrowly
- [00:18:07] <dotBen>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/11178.stm
- [00:18:10] <factoryjoe>
you could do it with hashes maybe
- [00:18:16] <dotBen>
sure, but the point is FJ that the current way works fine
- [00:18:22] <factoryjoe>
um
- [00:18:28] <dotBen>
it's not worth messing up so that sematics can get in there
- [00:18:28] <factoryjoe>
you were the one who brought up iran
- [00:18:35] <factoryjoe>
i disagree
- [00:18:35] <dotBen>
far better to represent that separately
- [00:18:40] <factoryjoe>
separately?!
- [00:18:43] <dotBen>
I'm sure you would
- [00:18:44] <factoryjoe>
and deliver it twice?!
- [00:18:44] <dotBen>
!
- [00:18:47] <dotBen>
YUP
- [00:18:49] <factoryjoe>
um
- [00:18:54] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [00:19:00] <factoryjoe>
shoot yourself
- [00:19:02] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:19:04] <dotBen>
look, you're approaching this from a tech perspective
- [00:19:11] <dotBen>
the BBC is not a tech company
- [00:19:14] <factoryjoe>
not really
- [00:19:23] <factoryjoe>
i'm approaching this as a browser developer
- [00:19:24] <dotBen>
it's a consumer focused corporation
- [00:19:27] <dotBen>
I know
- [00:19:29] <dotBen>
but I'm not
- [00:19:35] <factoryjoe>
trying to figure out how to get better tools to folks out there
- [00:19:35] <dotBen>
I'm approaching it as someone who is serving consumers
- [00:19:40] <TantekC>
dotBen, you can imagine supporting a "light" version for narrowband, mobile, etc.
- [00:19:41] <dotBen>
and not techies or developers
- [00:19:41] <factoryjoe>
as am i
- [00:20:01] <dotBen>
sure but the stuff you are doing in flock
- [00:20:02] <TantekC>
and a semantically "rich" version for broadband, desktop etc.
- [00:20:03] <dotBen>
the stuff I like too
- [00:20:07] <dotBen>
is not consumer
- [00:20:08] <dotBen>
not yet
- [00:20:10] <dotBen>
not now
- [00:20:13] <dotBen>
and thats the point
- [00:20:26] <dotBen>
the BBC primarlly does what is current
- [00:20:31] <dotBen>
because that's it's role
- [00:20:38] <dotBen>
to serve the public via the current menes possible
- [00:20:47] <dotBen>
we do a bit of forward stuff
- [00:20:57] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [00:21:01] * TantekC notes that http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples is still empty.
- [00:21:06] <dotBen>
but to sematically markup the entire BBC News site to the degree I know you would want
- [00:21:11] <TantekC>
alright folks, do you want to work on a comment microformat or not?
- [00:21:13] <dotBen>
simply wouldn't happen -- not yet anyway
- [00:21:22] <factoryjoe>
haha -- yeeeees papa tantek
- [00:21:27] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: of course
- [00:21:29] <TantekC>
or rather, I should say, just want to argue various points on the channel?
- [00:21:53] <dotBen>
so remind me exactly what you want here tantek?
- [00:22:02] <dotBen>
other than a problem in a sentence or two
- [00:22:21] <TantekC>
see http://microformats.org/wiki/examples for what makes a good *-examples document
- [00:22:31] <TantekC>
dotBen, even that would be a good start
- [00:23:03] <TantekC>
feel free to create that page and only write the problem statement for example
- [00:23:17] <TantekC>
even just copy and pasting from what you wrote above
- [00:23:24] <TantekC>
would be a great start
- [00:23:25] <dotBen>
(btw, we can debate all this stuff when I'm over -- far easier than in IRC!)
- [00:23:38] <TantekC>
right, but i want to capture the good stuff on the wiki
- [00:23:47] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [00:23:52] <TantekC>
it helps folks get started and provides a seed for iteration and growth
- [00:23:57] <factoryjoe>
and yeah, dotBen we'll have a grand ol' time when you're here
- [00:23:58] <KevinMarks>
i'd love to have the bbc debate
- [00:24:13] <TantekC>
perhaps over some cider
- [00:24:15] <KevinMarks>
i think we started it last year at etech
- [00:26:06] <TantekC>
hey factoryjoe, looks like you could take part �
- [00:26:07] <dotBen>
so here's your 1997 permalink: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/11178.stm
- [00:26:17] <factoryjoe>
TantekC: ?
- [00:28:27] <TantekC>
dotBen, awesome
- [00:28:45] <dotBen>
and here's today's current top business story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4702900.stm
- [00:29:18] <tantek>
factoryjoe, take this section: http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats#Tools
- [00:29:38] <tantek>
and move it to http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples
- [00:29:52] <tantek>
and add links to *actual* example generated by each of those tools
- [00:30:01] <tantek>
e.g. to actual instances of blogs etc.
- [00:30:11] <dotBen>
see the url structure hasnt changed
- [00:30:13] <dotBen>
did we?
- [00:30:14] <tantek>
with comments obviously
- [00:30:15] <dotBen>
you weren't the peson from Technorati I was having the debate with as to whether the BBC licence fee was a tax or not?
- [00:30:18] <dotBen>
in the W beach bar?
- [00:30:20] <dotBen>
because whoever that person was....
- [00:30:22] <dotBen>
well, I'll just stop before I make another tit of myself on IRC
- [00:30:24] <dotBen>
:)
- [00:30:26] <dotBen>
well, I'd love to add something to the wiki
- [00:30:28] <dotBen>
but mediawiki won't let me signup
- [00:30:30] <dotBen>
looks like your form might be broken
- [00:30:32] <dotBen>
(In fact it wasn't anyone here...)
- [00:30:34] <dotBen>
I just get "You have not specified a valid user name." for any username I try to reg with
- [00:30:36] <dotBen>
arhh you had strict wikipedia naming convention
- [00:30:38] <dotBen>
first letter in username must be capitalised
- [00:30:40] <KevinMarks>
yeah, i just realised that was you
- [00:30:49] <dotBen>
was it you?
- [00:30:53] <factoryjoe>
oh smack
- [00:30:55] <tantek>
dotBen, you realized that faster than anybody else so far
- [00:30:56] <KevinMarks>
it was
- [00:30:57] <tantek>
congrats
- [00:31:08] <tantek>
you've passed the first test ;)
- [00:31:09] <dotBen>
well as you can tell I remember that conversation very well
- [00:31:23] <mfbot>
[[comments-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comments-formats&diff=0&oldid=4899 * Chris Messina * (-1145) Tools -
- [00:31:34] <mfbot>
[[comment-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples * Chris Messina * (+1145)
- [00:32:25] * TantekC heading to cttp
- [00:33:36] <dotBen>
I'm I free to create a separate page of http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem
- [00:33:41] <dotBen>
to outline the issue?
- [00:33:51] <TantekC>
yes
- [00:33:56] <dotBen>
Kevin: yes, it was you -- I did the obligatory flickr search
- [00:34:07] <TantekC>
dotBen, please do
- [00:34:11] <dotBen>
man - you was well out of order
- [00:34:16] <KevinMarks>
hehe
- [00:34:26] <dotBen>
cos some german guy wanted to know how the BBC was funded
- [00:34:32] <KevinMarks>
thats cool coming from you
- [00:34:46] <dotBen>
and you wouldn't let me explain and just rammed in with "it's a govenment tax, it's a govenment tax"
- [00:34:53] <dotBen>
sure, you might see it as one
- [00:34:55] <dotBen>
fine
- [00:35:12] <dotBen>
but it isn't -- at least let me explain how it actually works to the poor chap and then tell him what you think!!!
- [00:35:26] <KevinMarks>
we're OT again
- [00:35:32] <dotBen>
yup
- [00:35:34] <dotBen>
we are
- [00:35:54] <dotBen>
was that supposed to be a subtle hint?
- [00:36:23] <factoryjoe>
omg
- [00:36:27] <KevinMarks>
well, the others are probably not that interested...
- [00:36:30] <TantekC>
yes, you guys have definitely spent your ot-tax in the channel for the day ;)
- [00:36:30] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: you're such a troublemaker
- [00:36:37] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [00:36:41] <factoryjoe>
we should start charging
- [00:36:47] <factoryjoe>
or should i do another death match mashup?
- [00:36:49] <dotBen>
It's cos I'm normally a nice guy. But if I get pissed off that I usualy do a very good job of being a snarky cunt.
- [00:37:00] <factoryjoe>
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/02/10/flockstar-shirts-have-arrived/
- [00:37:05] <dotBen>
and man, I've been waiting to have this out with you for 12 month !
- [00:37:11] <KevinMarks>
heh
- [00:37:13] <dotBen>
but ok, I'll bottle it for now!
- [00:37:15] <dotBen>
:)
- [00:37:22] <factoryjoe>
take it to #kevnmarks-vs-dotben
- [00:37:45] <KevinMarks>
#bbc-funding
- [00:38:10] <dotBen>
fuck it, freenode should just have a dedicated #ben-being-a-cunt
- [00:38:49] <KevinMarks>
we could go to #joiito
- [00:39:21] <factoryjoe>
dotBen++
- [00:39:24] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [00:39:46] <dotBen>
lol
- [00:40:26] * jakedahn is now known as jake-MRI
- [00:48:17] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [00:52:21] <mfbot>
[[comment-problem]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem * DotBen * (+1463)
- [00:54:27] <mfbot>
[[comment-problem]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4900 * DotBen * (-20)
- [00:54:39] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
- [00:56:42] <dotBen>
ok I've made a start
- [00:57:03] <dotBen>
I'm really not sure of what you guys want - only having read standards drafts for microformats
- [00:57:58] <mfbot>
[[comment-problem]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4901 * Tantek * (+111) added link to comment-examples
- [00:58:13] <tantek>
dotBen, this is great
- [00:58:18] <tantek>
thanks very much for writing this up
- [00:58:29] <dotBen>
well, it's not much
- [00:58:44] <dotBen>
I'm going to go away and write up more about what I want to see from a feed
- [00:58:50] <dotBen>
be it a microforat or not
- [00:58:57] <tantek>
that's the beauty of wiki-working, that's all you need to start, and then by the aggregation of everyone's "not much" contributions, we get something pretty cool
- [00:59:05] <tantek>
sounds good
- [00:59:19] <dotBen>
I hope I havn't pissed Kevin off
- [00:59:46] <tantek>
no i think he just had to go - he's at MooseCamp
- [01:00:01] <dotBen>
Ilol
- [01:00:17] <dotBen>
well, me and him have some unfinished business to attend to at some point :)
- [01:00:57] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [01:00:57] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [01:01:04] <mfbot>
[[comment-problem]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4902 * Tantek * (+54)
- [01:01:45] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4903 * Tantek * (+66)
- [01:03:01] <dotBen>
well
- [01:03:05] <dotBen>
I need to go
- [01:03:07] <dotBen>
it's 1am here
- [01:03:22] <dotBen>
such is being based in the UK
- [01:04:40] <dotBen>
but want needs to happen next?
- [01:04:48] <dotBen>
what*
- [01:05:03] <tantek>
that's what http://microformats.org/wiki/process is for
- [01:05:13] <tantek>
it's a template for what to do next
- [01:05:26] <tantek>
factoryjoe has started the examples page
- [01:05:30] <tantek>
we could probably use some more
- [01:05:45] <tantek>
and the existing examples need links to actual instances, rather than just the tools that generate them
- [01:08:38] <dotBen>
ok
- [01:08:43] <dotBen>
well look I'll start poking around
- [01:08:48] <tantek>
cool
- [01:08:55] <tantek>
and join the discuss list
- [01:09:03] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/discuss
- [01:09:14] <dotBen>
lol
- [01:09:16] <dotBen>
maybe
- [01:09:18] <dotBen>
don't really do email lists
- [01:09:30] <dotBen>
like I said - I really ONLY do RSS/newsreader for ANYTHING these days
- [01:09:35] <dotBen>
which is why I want comments in there
- [01:09:59] <tantek>
ah
- [01:11:05] <dotBen>
do you have an RSS feed
- [01:11:09] <dotBen>
or can I add you to http://www.mail-archive.com/
- [01:11:15] <tantek>
it's there
- [01:11:17] <tantek>
and here
- [01:11:18] <tantek>
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general/
- [01:11:38] <tantek>
feed: http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general
- [01:11:58] <tantek>
but you have to join in order to post
- [01:12:39] <dotBen>
yeah, well, I probabl won't be posting
- [01:14:09] <tantek>
no problem.
- [01:14:16] <tantek>
IRC usually works quite well also
- [01:14:18] <tantek>
and blogging about it too
- [01:14:25] <dotBen>
sure
- [01:14:31] <dotBen>
I just get too much email as it is
- [01:14:48] <dotBen>
I find I never end up contributing to email discussion groups
- [01:16:12] <tantek>
indeed, I get too much email as is as well
- [01:16:26] <tantek>
I find myself unsubbing from some lists so that I can sub to others and pay attention to them
- [01:16:37] <tantek>
but overall, it does feel like there should be a better way
- [01:16:54] <tantek>
nonetheless, email works well for some folks, who have difficulties with other mediums, like IRC for example
- [01:17:20] <tantek>
so each of the mediums we have (IRC, email, wiki, blogging with tags) serves a purpose for somebody
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- [01:25:28] <dotBen>
yup
- [01:25:34] <dotBen>
it's about using the right tool for the right job
- [01:25:43] <dotBen>
I don't have IRC access at work, not easily anyway
- [01:25:51] <dotBen>
but then you guys aren't arround until after work :)
- [01:25:57] <dotBen>
such is the fun of living 8 hours ahead!
- [01:28:21] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC8ACC91.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
- [01:28:22] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [01:29:01] <dotBen>
so look, I've already been thinking
- [01:29:08] <dotBen>
I'm happy to continue to brainstorm with you
- [01:29:17] <dotBen>
but I won't be creating a Microformat from this, I don't think
- [01:29:32] <dotBen>
if you guys want to use the thinking to do your own microformat, that's fine
- [01:29:48] <dotBen>
but I'm very clear in my mind this is an XML-bsaed solution because it needs to compliment RSS
- [01:30:09] <dotBen>
not xhtml, however parsable and semantically market up
- [01:30:21] <dotBen>
it's not for human reading - cos we already have that
- [01:30:49] <dotBen>
the problem is how do we get _machines_ to read blog comments --- and that goes against your microsformat principle of humans first, machines second
- [01:31:22] <factoryjoe>
why do we want machines reading comments?
- [01:34:41] <zwelch>
factoryjoe: why would you have them excluded?
- [01:34:42] <tantek>
dotBen, how about we make both versions and see which is easier for publishers to adopt?
- [01:34:50] <tantek>
let the market decide
- [01:34:57] <factoryjoe>
well, i'm firmly in the microformats camp
- [01:35:06] <factoryjoe>
and am more interested in human-readable formats...
- [01:35:17] <factoryjoe>
granted, that's in the eye of the beholder
- [01:35:20] <tantek>
microformats are for *both* humans *and* machines, let's not forget that
- [01:35:23] <factoryjoe>
i can read and work w/ xhtml
- [01:35:33] <factoryjoe>
xml, not so much, even thought it's quite similar
- [01:35:36] <tantek>
our point is you get better *data* for machines if you actually design for humans first
- [01:35:54] <factoryjoe>
i can style xhtml and the browser will allow me to make it look how i want it to look like
- [01:36:01] <factoryjoe>
i can't say the same for xml
- [01:36:09] <dotBen>
factoryjoe
- [01:36:16] <dotBen>
it's not about presenting it to humans
- [01:36:22] <zwelch>
tantek: that sounds more like a hypotesis
- [01:36:30] <dotBen>
it's about making it parsable to a machine that can add value and then display it
- [01:36:37] <dotBen>
search it, agregate it, etc
- [01:36:39] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: so we want machines to do the commenting for us?
- [01:36:47] <dotBen>
no, I didn't say that
- [01:36:52] <dotBen>
it's like RSS
- [01:36:54] <factoryjoe>
why would a machine search it?
- [01:36:57] <dotBen>
is that for humans?
- [01:37:01] <factoryjoe>
RSS?
- [01:37:02] <factoryjoe>
no
- [01:37:03] <factoryjoe>
that's why we
- [01:37:06] <factoryjoe>
re making hAtom
- [01:37:07] <dotBen>
so that we can have a technorati for comments
- [01:37:16] <dotBen>
that's why we want machines to search it
- [01:37:24] <factoryjoe>
ideally we would disintermediate technorati
- [01:37:37] <factoryjoe>
since comments would be marked up in one format
- [01:37:42] <dotBen>
so that we can be alerted (by a machine) when someone comments on a subscribed pot
- [01:37:43] <factoryjoe>
not rss AND xhtml
- [01:37:52] <dotBen>
etc
- [01:38:42] <tantek>
indeed, peer-to-peer is ideal, no argument there
- [01:38:49] <tantek>
and doable for many classes of problems
- [01:39:26] <tantek>
but searching across large data sets I *think* requires a large index/store which is beyond the capabilities of most "peers" as it were
- [01:39:37] <dotBen>
exactly
- [01:39:39] <tantek>
zwelch, not a hypothesis, but an observation
- [01:39:39] <limbo_>
imagine the scale of a peer to peer solution over the blogosphere... you'd bring the net down in a day.
- [01:39:46] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [01:39:54] <factoryjoe>
i think 'rati has a role for sure
- [01:39:55] <dotBen>
for every post technorati knows of, there are probably 3 or 4 comments on average
- [01:40:05] <factoryjoe>
i guess the thing is this
- [01:40:14] <factoryjoe>
i can attend to a certain percentage of a conversation
- [01:40:16] <dotBen>
so you're talking about a database of converastion many times bigger than technorati
- [01:40:17] <factoryjoe>
like at a party
- [01:40:22] <factoryjoe>
and get the "gist" of what's being said
- [01:40:27] <factoryjoe>
i don't need to hear everything
- [01:40:28] <tantek>
we know that the more visible the dA
- [01:40:28] <dotBen>
(it's a bit odd referring to technorati when there are reps of the company in this chat!)
- [01:40:32] <factoryjoe>
the blogosphere is like that
- [01:40:46] <tantek>
dotben, not a problem, no offense taken ;)
- [01:40:49] <factoryjoe>
p2p works for fuzzily overhearing
- [01:40:59] <dotBen>
well, no, more as in whilst this might be obvious ideas
- [01:41:09] <dotBen>
I don't really want to be helping technorati particuarlly
- [01:41:15] <dotBen>
well, I take that back
- [01:41:16] <tantek>
and besides, we are huge fans/supporters of open standards that enable decentralized solutions
- [01:41:17] <factoryjoe>
'rati would work for massive crunching
- [01:41:23] <dotBen>
I don't want to be helping a profit-making company
- [01:41:34] <dotBen>
could be technorati or any of your competitors
- [01:41:35] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: the standards are open
- [01:41:35] <tantek>
dotBen, don't make assumptions :)
- [01:41:37] <factoryjoe>
and free
- [01:41:41] <dotBen>
nothing against technorati per se
- [01:41:46] <factoryjoe>
it's good that tantek has a dayjob to support this work
- [01:41:59] <factoryjoe>
or tantek doing whatever it is he does
- [01:42:05] <dotBen>
hmmm
- [01:42:12] <factoryjoe>
so he can buy vegie burritos and have a nice girlfriend
- [01:42:18] <dotBen>
well, as someone who charges other companies in this field for consulting at the moment...
- [01:42:22] <tantek>
dotBen, we believe that good businesses can be built on open standards
- [01:42:24] <factoryjoe>
otherwise he'd be distitute and doing the same thing
- [01:42:49] <tantek>
as opposed to proprietary proposals <cough>base</cough>
- [01:42:54] <dotBen>
sure
- [01:43:00] <dotBen>
and I'm happy to support open standards
- [01:43:01] <factoryjoe>
do you want tantek to end up like this? http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/97459528/
- [01:43:26] <dotBen>
it's just if that merely leads to a new business venture for technorati -- which if this works, it will --
- [01:43:39] <dotBen>
etc
- [01:43:51] <tantek>
dotben, there are already too many potential business ventures for technorati to build upon microformats than there are technorati staff and time to do so
- [01:43:56] <tantek>
seriously
- [01:44:01] <dotBen>
I'm sure
- [01:44:09] <dotBen>
but for someone there is a pot of cash here
- [01:44:18] <dotBen>
if MT and Wordpress were to adopt this
- [01:44:26] <dotBen>
which probably won't happen
- [01:44:28] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: they're already going to adopt it
- [01:44:29] <dotBen>
but if it did...
- [01:44:29] <tantek>
we want to help make sure that the standards are open so that there can be more business opportunities, even if we're not necessarily the ones who take advantage of them
- [01:44:43] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: you're just as able to make a business on this stuff
- [01:44:53] <dotBen>
well, not really
- [01:44:57] <factoryjoe>
well, um, yeah
- [01:45:00] <dotBen>
for reasons I can't really go into
- [01:45:02] <dotBen>
right now anyway
- [01:45:05] <tantek>
the point is, open standards for all this stuff grows the pie for everyone, and helps solve problems we all want solved
- [01:45:06] <factoryjoe>
well there you go
- [01:45:07] <factoryjoe>
that
- [01:45:09] <factoryjoe>
s your dilly
- [01:45:24] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: it's the same for *all* standards
- [01:45:45] <factoryjoe>
any standard is brings with it a rainbow with a pot of gold on the end
- [01:45:56] <factoryjoe>
in this case it happens to have gold on both ends
- [01:46:01] <factoryjoe>
(ok, that was SOOOO lame)
- [01:47:15] * tantek visualizes a flying unicorn.
- [01:48:03] <factoryjoe>
you're so dead
- [01:48:14] <dotBen>
hmmm you San Fran hippies
- [01:48:29] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: you friggin UKian fascist
- [01:48:33] * tantek visualizes factoryjoe riding the flying unicorn over the aforementioned rainbow.
- [01:48:41] <factoryjoe>
oh man
- [01:48:44] <dotBen>
and that's coming from someone who up till now dedicated the majoriy of their career to the non-commercial involvment in IT/Internet
- [01:48:51] * factoryjoe to tantek: KAPOW!
- [01:48:59] <limbo_>
factoryjoe, you mean imperialist
- [01:49:58] <factoryjoe>
oh yes, sorry
- [01:50:04] <factoryjoe>
i couldn't spell that one
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- [02:26:10] <dotBen>
ok, it's 2:30 am here
- [02:26:13] <dotBen>
really will turn in now...
- [02:26:16] <dotBen>
laters all
- [02:26:21] <jakedahn>
peace out
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BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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- [06:50:54] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [07:48:57] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4904 * Tantek * (+388) some cleanup
- [08:03:18] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4905 * Tantek * (+357)
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- [09:48:47] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [11:20:00] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [13:09:48] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [14:42:58] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
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- [14:54:24] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [15:49:55] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [17:40:18] * Atamido_ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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- [17:40:25] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [20:20:12] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [20:20:12] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [20:28:45] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [20:28:45] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [20:41:07] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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- [22:21:17] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [22:48:13] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [22:53:54] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:09:54] <tantek>
KevinMarks is talking about microformats at MooseCamp
- [23:10:03] <tantek>
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/nv.mov
- [23:14:38] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [23:14:38] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [23:20:48] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:20:48] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [23:20:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [23:25:50] * markmansour (n=markmans@dsl-202-173-156-87.vic.westnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
- [23:33:32] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:33:33] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
- [23:34:25] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@d220-236-137-16.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
- [23:34:26] <jibot>
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
- [23:38:25] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=4906 * Tantek * (+765) Apple Address Book exports CATEGORIES but does not import
- [23:40:19] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
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- [23:45:06] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=4907 * Tantek * (+134) a little cleanup.
- [23:45:50] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [23:53:32] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Success)
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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