IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:00] <dotBen> bullshit
  2. [00:00:14] <KevinMarks> say why you think they suck and we can make progress
  3. [00:00:14] <TantekC> LOL
  4. [00:00:16] <dotBen> ok look for the comments thing - I think I would like to go away and do some writing up if that's ok
  5. [00:00:23] <TantekC> so who wants to start http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples
  6. [00:00:23] <TantekC> ?
  7. [00:00:39] <TantekC> dotBen, do you agree with the methodology of doing research on real examples before brainstorming?
  8. [00:00:40] <KevinMarks> my hands are full
  9. [00:00:57] <dotBen> tantek: sure
  10. [00:01:03] <dotBen> but I've done a bit in my head already
  11. [00:01:08] <TantekC> then let's start with the examples
  12. [00:01:19] <TantekC> i understand, a lot of folks have done lots of bits in their heads
  13. [00:01:30] <TantekC> we've already had at least two failed efforts like that
  14. [00:01:40] <factoryjoe> hehehe
  15. [00:01:43] <TantekC> because the problem is that the research was actually not done or not documented
  16. [00:01:43] <factoryjoe> busted!
  17. [00:01:44] <dotBen> well we've kind of touched on the problem
  18. [00:01:50] <dotBen> hey you know what
  19. [00:01:53] <BenjaminCarlyle> dotBen: microformats can be html as well as xhtml
  20. [00:01:54] <TantekC> insufficient
  21. [00:02:03] <dotBen> I'm going to write some stuff up
  22. [00:02:07] <dotBen> and come back to you
  23. [00:02:09] <TantekC> we need to document the examples so we all have a common context / data set to point to to analyze
  24. [00:02:12] <BenjaminCarlyle> Parsers just tend to "tidy" before processing.
  25. [00:02:13] <dotBen> not a solution just a problem spec
  26. [00:02:22] <dotBen> and if you want to talk about it over here in the meantime, that's fine
  27. [00:02:25] <TantekC> dotBen, feel free to do that also
  28. [00:02:34] <TantekC> on the microformats wiki
  29. [00:02:40] <TantekC> a problem statement is an *excellent* way to start
  30. [00:02:40] <KevinMarks> problem spec is good
  31. [00:02:50] <dotBen> I also need to work out whether I want to dedicate my time to a 'microformat' because I'm not 100% convinced of the direction some of your stuff has gone in
  32. [00:02:56] <KevinMarks> comments-brainstorming
  33. [00:03:05] <dotBen> the xhtml stuff I mean
  34. [00:03:07] * TantekC wonders if we shoult start this with http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problems
  35. [00:03:17] <KevinMarks> well, tell us why you dislike html
  36. [00:03:27] <TantekC> Kevin, please don't open ratholes
  37. [00:03:36] <dotBen> because it's sucky to parse and ingest into a database
  38. [00:03:44] <TantekC> dotBen, let's punt on those issues for now
  39. [00:03:50] <TantekC> regardless, the research will help
  40. [00:03:59] <TantekC> let's cross those bridges when we get to them
  41. [00:04:06] <dotBen> well it will help but it might not be a direction I want to take my time towards
  42. [00:04:12] <factoryjoe> yeah i think focusing on the comment stuff is a better use of dotBen's efforts
  43. [00:04:13] <dotBen> I don't want to be a stick in the mud here folks!
  44. [00:04:17] <KevinMarks> the point of microformats is to make it less sucky
  45. [00:04:20] <factoryjoe> i can twist his arm when he comes to town to stay w/ me
  46. [00:04:24] <TantekC> the research will help regardless of the direction
  47. [00:04:27] <dotBen> lol
  48. [00:04:29] <KevinMarks> yes
  49. [00:04:31] <dotBen> ok
  50. [00:04:36] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: you should come to the dotBen out of towner i'm planning
  51. [00:04:37] <TantekC> so will the problem statement
  52. [00:04:44] <dotBen> put it this way
  53. [00:04:46] <factoryjoe> and you can bring your cluebat and isight
  54. [00:04:46] <dotBen> at BBC
  55. [00:04:51] <KevinMarks> i'll try
  56. [00:05:01] <dotBen> we're not going to release any xhtml stuff or JSON or anything like that
  57. [00:05:04] <dotBen> on backstage.bbc.co.uk
  58. [00:05:09] <KevinMarks> which town is it out of?
  59. [00:05:12] <dotBen> if you want to do that then convert the RSS/XML - that's my view
  60. [00:05:17] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: UK
  61. [00:05:31] <factoryjoe> dotBen: we'll school you yet
  62. [00:05:33] <factoryjoe> ;)
  63. [00:05:36] <dotBen> maybe
  64. [00:05:36] <TantekC> dotBen, that's a per publisher question/issue
  65. [00:05:41] <KevinMarks> do you have a webpage version ben?
  66. [00:05:43] <TantekC> there is no need to debate that
  67. [00:05:44] <dotBen> what do ou mean?
  68. [00:05:58] * dotBen too many conversation threads!
  69. [00:06:11] <dotBen> Kevin: version of what?
  70. [00:06:23] <KevinMarks> the backstage info
  71. [00:06:25] <dotBen> Tantek: what do you mean by "per publisher issue"?
  72. [00:06:40] <TantekC> every publisher has their preferred way(s) to publish
  73. [00:06:49] <dotBen> well backstage.bbc.co.uk is about releaseing programtic versions of stuff that is on bbc.co.uk
  74. [00:07:01] <TantekC> the key here is to adapt to the publisher's way(s) rather than to tell them all to learn a new file type etc.
  75. [00:07:02] <dotBen> Tantek: well, the BBC's preferred way is kinda my decision!
  76. [00:07:18] <TantekC> awesome!
  77. [00:07:18] <dotBen> :)
  78. [00:07:21] <KevinMarks> aha, so you cant touch their html
  79. [00:07:33] <TantekC> all praise the all(BBC)powerful dotBen!
  80. [00:07:39] <dotBen> fucking don't!
  81. [00:07:44] <dotBen> the BBC is fucking doing my head in!
  82. [00:07:54] <dotBen> it's getting pulled, into the 21st century
  83. [00:08:02] <dotBen> but it's kicking and screaming and trying to resist as best it can!
  84. [00:08:27] <dotBen> Kevin: you can touch the html if we wanted to
  85. [00:08:42] <dotBen> but it's better to have semantically marked up code for CSS use, etc
  86. [00:08:47] <dotBen> as it's 99% consumer access
  87. [00:09:01] <dotBen> and have XML/RSS feeds within the developer network -- backstage.bbc.co.uk
  88. [00:09:31] <dotBen> otherwise we would be over-semantically marking up our HTML - yes, you can bloat it folks!
  89. [00:09:51] <dotBen> ?
  90. [00:09:54] <TantekC> interesting dotBen, we haven't found that to be true yet
  91. [00:10:16] <dotBen> you mean marking up your HTML as sematically as possible?
  92. [00:10:22] <TantekC> if you could point to some examples of what you consider "over-semantically marking up HTML" perhaps that would help
  93. [00:10:29] <KevinMarks> class-based semantics is very compact comapred to xml-based
  94. [00:10:30] <dotBen> well, don't forget the BBC isn't a tech company. It's a consumer-facing media company
  95. [00:10:35] <dotBen> there are other issues as stake
  96. [00:10:55] <TantekC> it's good to hear what the issues are
  97. [00:10:57] <dotBen> such as producing light weight code that can be efficiently delivered into Iran
  98. [00:11:04] <TantekC> LOL
  99. [00:11:09] <KevinMarks> it's not a company, it's corporation organised by Royal Charter
  100. [00:11:25] <dotBen> well technically outside the UK it's a company
  101. [00:11:32] <dotBen> BBC World
  102. [00:11:38] <factoryjoe> hmm
  103. [00:11:39] <KevinMarks> you mean my 'use the FO monry to take the Creative Archive global' meme is coming?
  104. [00:11:41] <dotBen> but from my personal pespective it's corporation
  105. [00:11:44] <factoryjoe> ajax could help with that
  106. [00:11:47] <KevinMarks> World Service isn't
  107. [00:11:54] <dotBen> no, world service isn't
  108. [00:11:58] <factoryjoe> portioned page loading
  109. [00:12:00] * TantekC sets mode -o KevinMarks
  110. [00:12:05] <dotBen> but then world service is an even greater example of keeping things light weight
  111. [00:12:09] <factoryjoe> when you click a link, only replace the requested content
  112. [00:12:16] <TantekC> Kevin gets de-opped for nitpicking unrelated trivia in the microformats channel.
  113. [00:12:22] <TantekC> :p
  114. [00:12:22] <KevinMarks> heh
  115. [00:12:25] <factoryjoe> instead of the nav and header and footer ,etc
  116. [00:12:32] <factoryjoe> haha
  117. [00:12:33] <dotBen> their audio is only streamed in 36kpbs where as BBC News is 56kbps to keep the costs down and the efficinety of serving into very narrowband locations
  118. [00:12:44] <dotBen> ok ok one thread at a time
  119. [00:12:46] <dotBen> !
  120. [00:13:10] <factoryjoe> sorry
  121. [00:13:15] <dotBen> Creative Archive is never going global, btw
  122. [00:13:21] <dotBen> and I can't be deopted
  123. [00:13:24] <dotBen> mind you I guess I could get booted
  124. [00:13:32] <dotBen> I work in the Creative Archive office... trust me
  125. [00:13:46] * cee-dub is now known as cee-dub|teatime
  126. [00:14:29] <dotBen> the ajax 'keep the nav/foote/header' idea would never work either
  127. [00:14:41] <dotBen> seriously
  128. [00:14:42] <factoryjoe> oh?
  129. [00:14:52] <dotBen> you have no idea how the BBC works at all :)
  130. [00:15:08] <dotBen> where do I begin
  131. [00:15:21] <factoryjoe> well
  132. [00:15:25] <factoryjoe> fuggit the bbc than
  133. [00:15:26] <factoryjoe> anyway
  134. [00:15:30] <dotBen> some of this is going to be critical of the way the BBC is set up so I'd rather take it offline when we meet in person!
  135. [00:15:32] <factoryjoe> we were discussing cocomment et al
  136. [00:15:35] <TantekC> the narrowband requirements are reasonable
  137. [00:15:54] <dotBen> cos I've said some things in this positon before and stuff has got leaked back...!
  138. [00:15:55] <TantekC> they apply equally to mobile devices
  139. [00:16:09] <TantekC> dotBen, FYI, the channel is logged
  140. [00:16:17] * TantekC points to /topic
  141. [00:16:17] <dotBen> I assumed so
  142. [00:16:29] <dotBen> the stuff I will say is:
  143. [00:16:38] <dotBen> a) the BBC is one of the first examples of using permalink
  144. [00:16:45] <dotBen> we were doing it on the news site in 1997
  145. [00:16:59] <dotBen> so having dynamic page loads with ajax looses our permalink for each story structure
  146. [00:17:10] <dotBen> which we're very proud of
  147. [00:17:13] * TantekC looks for 1997 BBC permalink.
  148. [00:17:22] <dotBen> one moment, it's on the wikipedia entry
  149. [00:17:50] <factoryjoe> i wasn't really look back
  150. [00:18:02] <factoryjoe> i was looking at ways to deliver content narrowly
  151. [00:18:07] <dotBen> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/11178.stm
  152. [00:18:10] <factoryjoe> you could do it with hashes maybe
  153. [00:18:16] <dotBen> sure, but the point is FJ that the current way works fine
  154. [00:18:22] <factoryjoe> um
  155. [00:18:28] <dotBen> it's not worth messing up so that sematics can get in there
  156. [00:18:28] <factoryjoe> you were the one who brought up iran
  157. [00:18:35] <factoryjoe> i disagree
  158. [00:18:35] <dotBen> far better to represent that separately
  159. [00:18:40] <factoryjoe> separately?!
  160. [00:18:43] <dotBen> I'm sure you would
  161. [00:18:44] <factoryjoe> and deliver it twice?!
  162. [00:18:44] <dotBen> !
  163. [00:18:47] <dotBen> YUP
  164. [00:18:49] <factoryjoe> um
  165. [00:18:54] <factoryjoe> ok
  166. [00:19:00] <factoryjoe> shoot yourself
  167. [00:19:02] <factoryjoe> ;)
  168. [00:19:04] <dotBen> look, you're approaching this from a tech perspective
  169. [00:19:11] <dotBen> the BBC is not a tech company
  170. [00:19:14] <factoryjoe> not really
  171. [00:19:23] <factoryjoe> i'm approaching this as a browser developer
  172. [00:19:24] <dotBen> it's a consumer focused corporation
  173. [00:19:27] <dotBen> I know
  174. [00:19:29] <dotBen> but I'm not
  175. [00:19:35] <factoryjoe> trying to figure out how to get better tools to folks out there
  176. [00:19:35] <dotBen> I'm approaching it as someone who is serving consumers
  177. [00:19:40] <TantekC> dotBen, you can imagine supporting a "light" version for narrowband, mobile, etc.
  178. [00:19:41] <dotBen> and not techies or developers
  179. [00:19:41] <factoryjoe> as am i
  180. [00:20:01] <dotBen> sure but the stuff you are doing in flock
  181. [00:20:02] <TantekC> and a semantically "rich" version for broadband, desktop etc.
  182. [00:20:03] <dotBen> the stuff I like too
  183. [00:20:07] <dotBen> is not consumer
  184. [00:20:08] <dotBen> not yet
  185. [00:20:10] <dotBen> not now
  186. [00:20:13] <dotBen> and thats the point
  187. [00:20:26] <dotBen> the BBC primarlly does what is current
  188. [00:20:31] <dotBen> because that's it's role
  189. [00:20:38] <dotBen> to serve the public via the current menes possible
  190. [00:20:47] <dotBen> we do a bit of forward stuff
  191. [00:20:57] <factoryjoe> hmm
  192. [00:21:01] * TantekC notes that http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples is still empty.
  193. [00:21:06] <dotBen> but to sematically markup the entire BBC News site to the degree I know you would want
  194. [00:21:11] <TantekC> alright folks, do you want to work on a comment microformat or not?
  195. [00:21:13] <dotBen> simply wouldn't happen -- not yet anyway
  196. [00:21:22] <factoryjoe> haha -- yeeeees papa tantek
  197. [00:21:27] <factoryjoe> dotBen: of course
  198. [00:21:29] <TantekC> or rather, I should say, just want to argue various points on the channel?
  199. [00:21:53] <dotBen> so remind me exactly what you want here tantek?
  200. [00:22:02] <dotBen> other than a problem in a sentence or two
  201. [00:22:21] <TantekC> see http://microformats.org/wiki/examples for what makes a good *-examples document
  202. [00:22:31] <TantekC> dotBen, even that would be a good start
  203. [00:23:03] <TantekC> feel free to create that page and only write the problem statement for example
  204. [00:23:17] <TantekC> even just copy and pasting from what you wrote above
  205. [00:23:24] <TantekC> would be a great start
  206. [00:23:25] <dotBen> (btw, we can debate all this stuff when I'm over -- far easier than in IRC!)
  207. [00:23:38] <TantekC> right, but i want to capture the good stuff on the wiki
  208. [00:23:47] <factoryjoe> yes
  209. [00:23:52] <TantekC> it helps folks get started and provides a seed for iteration and growth
  210. [00:23:57] <factoryjoe> and yeah, dotBen we'll have a grand ol' time when you're here
  211. [00:23:58] <KevinMarks> i'd love to have the bbc debate
  212. [00:24:13] <TantekC> perhaps over some cider
  213. [00:24:15] <KevinMarks> i think we started it last year at etech
  214. [00:26:06] <TantekC> hey factoryjoe, looks like you could take part �
  215. [00:26:07] <dotBen> so here's your 1997 permalink: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/11178.stm
  216. [00:26:17] <factoryjoe> TantekC: ?
  217. [00:28:27] <TantekC> dotBen, awesome
  218. [00:28:45] <dotBen> and here's today's current top business story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4702900.stm
  219. [00:29:18] <tantek> factoryjoe, take this section: http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats#Tools
  220. [00:29:38] <tantek> and move it to http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples
  221. [00:29:52] <tantek> and add links to *actual* example generated by each of those tools
  222. [00:30:01] <tantek> e.g. to actual instances of blogs etc.
  223. [00:30:11] <dotBen> see the url structure hasnt changed
  224. [00:30:13] <dotBen> did we?
  225. [00:30:14] <tantek> with comments obviously
  226. [00:30:15] <dotBen> you weren't the peson from Technorati I was having the debate with as to whether the BBC licence fee was a tax or not?
  227. [00:30:18] <dotBen> in the W beach bar?
  228. [00:30:20] <dotBen> because whoever that person was....
  229. [00:30:22] <dotBen> well, I'll just stop before I make another tit of myself on IRC
  230. [00:30:24] <dotBen> :)
  231. [00:30:26] <dotBen> well, I'd love to add something to the wiki
  232. [00:30:28] <dotBen> but mediawiki won't let me signup
  233. [00:30:30] <dotBen> looks like your form might be broken
  234. [00:30:32] <dotBen> (In fact it wasn't anyone here...)
  235. [00:30:34] <dotBen> I just get "You have not specified a valid user name." for any username I try to reg with
  236. [00:30:36] <dotBen> arhh you had strict wikipedia naming convention
  237. [00:30:38] <dotBen> first letter in username must be capitalised
  238. [00:30:40] <KevinMarks> yeah, i just realised that was you
  239. [00:30:49] <dotBen> was it you?
  240. [00:30:53] <factoryjoe> oh smack
  241. [00:30:55] <tantek> dotBen, you realized that faster than anybody else so far
  242. [00:30:56] <KevinMarks> it was
  243. [00:30:57] <tantek> congrats
  244. [00:31:08] <tantek> you've passed the first test ;)
  245. [00:31:09] <dotBen> well as you can tell I remember that conversation very well
  246. [00:31:23] <mfbot> [[comments-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comments-formats&diff=0&oldid=4899 * Chris Messina * (-1145) Tools -
  247. [00:31:34] <mfbot> [[comment-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-examples * Chris Messina * (+1145)
  248. [00:32:25] * TantekC heading to cttp
  249. [00:33:36] <dotBen> I'm I free to create a separate page of http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem
  250. [00:33:41] <dotBen> to outline the issue?
  251. [00:33:51] <TantekC> yes
  252. [00:33:56] <dotBen> Kevin: yes, it was you -- I did the obligatory flickr search
  253. [00:34:07] <TantekC> dotBen, please do
  254. [00:34:11] <dotBen> man - you was well out of order
  255. [00:34:16] <KevinMarks> hehe
  256. [00:34:26] <dotBen> cos some german guy wanted to know how the BBC was funded
  257. [00:34:32] <KevinMarks> thats cool coming from you
  258. [00:34:46] <dotBen> and you wouldn't let me explain and just rammed in with "it's a govenment tax, it's a govenment tax"
  259. [00:34:53] <dotBen> sure, you might see it as one
  260. [00:34:55] <dotBen> fine
  261. [00:35:12] <dotBen> but it isn't -- at least let me explain how it actually works to the poor chap and then tell him what you think!!!
  262. [00:35:26] <KevinMarks> we're OT again
  263. [00:35:32] <dotBen> yup
  264. [00:35:34] <dotBen> we are
  265. [00:35:54] <dotBen> was that supposed to be a subtle hint?
  266. [00:36:23] <factoryjoe> omg
  267. [00:36:27] <KevinMarks> well, the others are probably not that interested...
  268. [00:36:30] <TantekC> yes, you guys have definitely spent your ot-tax in the channel for the day ;)
  269. [00:36:30] <factoryjoe> dotBen: you're such a troublemaker
  270. [00:36:37] <factoryjoe> yeah
  271. [00:36:41] <factoryjoe> we should start charging
  272. [00:36:47] <factoryjoe> or should i do another death match mashup?
  273. [00:36:49] <dotBen> It's cos I'm normally a nice guy. But if I get pissed off that I usualy do a very good job of being a snarky cunt.
  274. [00:37:00] <factoryjoe> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/02/10/flockstar-shirts-have-arrived/
  275. [00:37:05] <dotBen> and man, I've been waiting to have this out with you for 12 month !
  276. [00:37:11] <KevinMarks> heh
  277. [00:37:13] <dotBen> but ok, I'll bottle it for now!
  278. [00:37:15] <dotBen> :)
  279. [00:37:22] <factoryjoe> take it to #kevnmarks-vs-dotben
  280. [00:37:45] <KevinMarks> #bbc-funding
  281. [00:38:10] <dotBen> fuck it, freenode should just have a dedicated #ben-being-a-cunt
  282. [00:38:49] <KevinMarks> we could go to #joiito
  283. [00:39:21] <factoryjoe> dotBen++
  284. [00:39:24] <factoryjoe> ;)
  285. [00:39:46] <dotBen> lol
  286. [00:40:26] * jakedahn is now known as jake-MRI
  287. [00:48:17] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  288. [00:52:21] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem * DotBen * (+1463)
  289. [00:54:27] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4900 * DotBen * (-20)
  290. [00:54:39] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  291. [00:56:42] <dotBen> ok I've made a start
  292. [00:57:03] <dotBen> I'm really not sure of what you guys want - only having read standards drafts for microformats
  293. [00:57:58] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4901 * Tantek * (+111) added link to comment-examples
  294. [00:58:13] <tantek> dotBen, this is great
  295. [00:58:18] <tantek> thanks very much for writing this up
  296. [00:58:29] <dotBen> well, it's not much
  297. [00:58:44] <dotBen> I'm going to go away and write up more about what I want to see from a feed
  298. [00:58:50] <dotBen> be it a microforat or not
  299. [00:58:57] <tantek> that's the beauty of wiki-working, that's all you need to start, and then by the aggregation of everyone's "not much" contributions, we get something pretty cool
  300. [00:59:05] <tantek> sounds good
  301. [00:59:19] <dotBen> I hope I havn't pissed Kevin off
  302. [00:59:46] <tantek> no i think he just had to go - he's at MooseCamp
  303. [01:00:01] <dotBen> Ilol
  304. [01:00:17] <dotBen> well, me and him have some unfinished business to attend to at some point :)
  305. [01:00:57] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  306. [01:00:57] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  307. [01:01:04] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=4902 * Tantek * (+54)
  308. [01:01:45] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4903 * Tantek * (+66)
  309. [01:03:01] <dotBen> well
  310. [01:03:05] <dotBen> I need to go
  311. [01:03:07] <dotBen> it's 1am here
  312. [01:03:22] <dotBen> such is being based in the UK
  313. [01:04:40] <dotBen> but want needs to happen next?
  314. [01:04:48] <dotBen> what*
  315. [01:05:03] <tantek> that's what http://microformats.org/wiki/process is for
  316. [01:05:13] <tantek> it's a template for what to do next
  317. [01:05:26] <tantek> factoryjoe has started the examples page
  318. [01:05:30] <tantek> we could probably use some more
  319. [01:05:45] <tantek> and the existing examples need links to actual instances, rather than just the tools that generate them
  320. [01:08:38] <dotBen> ok
  321. [01:08:43] <dotBen> well look I'll start poking around
  322. [01:08:48] <tantek> cool
  323. [01:08:55] <tantek> and join the discuss list
  324. [01:09:03] <tantek> http://microformats.org/discuss
  325. [01:09:14] <dotBen> lol
  326. [01:09:16] <dotBen> maybe
  327. [01:09:18] <dotBen> don't really do email lists
  328. [01:09:30] <dotBen> like I said - I really ONLY do RSS/newsreader for ANYTHING these days
  329. [01:09:35] <dotBen> which is why I want comments in there
  330. [01:09:59] <tantek> ah
  331. [01:11:05] <dotBen> do you have an RSS feed
  332. [01:11:09] <dotBen> or can I add you to http://www.mail-archive.com/
  333. [01:11:15] <tantek> it's there
  334. [01:11:17] <tantek> and here
  335. [01:11:18] <tantek> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general/
  336. [01:11:38] <tantek> feed: http://rss.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.microformats.general
  337. [01:11:58] <tantek> but you have to join in order to post
  338. [01:12:39] <dotBen> yeah, well, I probabl won't be posting
  339. [01:14:09] <tantek> no problem.
  340. [01:14:16] <tantek> IRC usually works quite well also
  341. [01:14:18] <tantek> and blogging about it too
  342. [01:14:25] <dotBen> sure
  343. [01:14:31] <dotBen> I just get too much email as it is
  344. [01:14:48] <dotBen> I find I never end up contributing to email discussion groups
  345. [01:16:12] <tantek> indeed, I get too much email as is as well
  346. [01:16:26] <tantek> I find myself unsubbing from some lists so that I can sub to others and pay attention to them
  347. [01:16:37] <tantek> but overall, it does feel like there should be a better way
  348. [01:16:54] <tantek> nonetheless, email works well for some folks, who have difficulties with other mediums, like IRC for example
  349. [01:17:20] <tantek> so each of the mediums we have (IRC, email, wiki, blogging with tags) serves a purpose for somebody
  350. [01:21:06] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  352. [01:25:28] <dotBen> yup
  353. [01:25:34] <dotBen> it's about using the right tool for the right job
  354. [01:25:43] <dotBen> I don't have IRC access at work, not easily anyway
  355. [01:25:51] <dotBen> but then you guys aren't arround until after work :)
  356. [01:25:57] <dotBen> such is the fun of living 8 hours ahead!
  357. [01:28:21] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC8ACC91.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  358. [01:28:22] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  359. [01:29:01] <dotBen> so look, I've already been thinking
  360. [01:29:08] <dotBen> I'm happy to continue to brainstorm with you
  361. [01:29:17] <dotBen> but I won't be creating a Microformat from this, I don't think
  362. [01:29:32] <dotBen> if you guys want to use the thinking to do your own microformat, that's fine
  363. [01:29:48] <dotBen> but I'm very clear in my mind this is an XML-bsaed solution because it needs to compliment RSS
  364. [01:30:09] <dotBen> not xhtml, however parsable and semantically market up
  365. [01:30:21] <dotBen> it's not for human reading - cos we already have that
  366. [01:30:49] <dotBen> the problem is how do we get _machines_ to read blog comments --- and that goes against your microsformat principle of humans first, machines second
  367. [01:31:22] <factoryjoe> why do we want machines reading comments?
  368. [01:34:41] <zwelch> factoryjoe: why would you have them excluded?
  369. [01:34:42] <tantek> dotBen, how about we make both versions and see which is easier for publishers to adopt?
  370. [01:34:50] <tantek> let the market decide
  371. [01:34:57] <factoryjoe> well, i'm firmly in the microformats camp
  372. [01:35:06] <factoryjoe> and am more interested in human-readable formats...
  373. [01:35:17] <factoryjoe> granted, that's in the eye of the beholder
  374. [01:35:20] <tantek> microformats are for *both* humans *and* machines, let's not forget that
  375. [01:35:23] <factoryjoe> i can read and work w/ xhtml
  376. [01:35:33] <factoryjoe> xml, not so much, even thought it's quite similar
  377. [01:35:36] <tantek> our point is you get better *data* for machines if you actually design for humans first
  378. [01:35:54] <factoryjoe> i can style xhtml and the browser will allow me to make it look how i want it to look like
  379. [01:36:01] <factoryjoe> i can't say the same for xml
  380. [01:36:09] <dotBen> factoryjoe
  381. [01:36:16] <dotBen> it's not about presenting it to humans
  382. [01:36:22] <zwelch> tantek: that sounds more like a hypotesis
  383. [01:36:30] <dotBen> it's about making it parsable to a machine that can add value and then display it
  384. [01:36:37] <dotBen> search it, agregate it, etc
  385. [01:36:39] <factoryjoe> dotBen: so we want machines to do the commenting for us?
  386. [01:36:47] <dotBen> no, I didn't say that
  387. [01:36:52] <dotBen> it's like RSS
  388. [01:36:54] <factoryjoe> why would a machine search it?
  389. [01:36:57] <dotBen> is that for humans?
  390. [01:37:01] <factoryjoe> RSS?
  391. [01:37:02] <factoryjoe> no
  392. [01:37:03] <factoryjoe> that's why we
  393. [01:37:06] <factoryjoe> re making hAtom
  394. [01:37:07] <dotBen> so that we can have a technorati for comments
  395. [01:37:16] <dotBen> that's why we want machines to search it
  396. [01:37:24] <factoryjoe> ideally we would disintermediate technorati
  397. [01:37:37] <factoryjoe> since comments would be marked up in one format
  398. [01:37:42] <dotBen> so that we can be alerted (by a machine) when someone comments on a subscribed pot
  399. [01:37:43] <factoryjoe> not rss AND xhtml
  400. [01:37:52] <dotBen> etc
  401. [01:38:42] <tantek> indeed, peer-to-peer is ideal, no argument there
  402. [01:38:49] <tantek> and doable for many classes of problems
  403. [01:39:26] <tantek> but searching across large data sets I *think* requires a large index/store which is beyond the capabilities of most "peers" as it were
  404. [01:39:37] <dotBen> exactly
  405. [01:39:39] <tantek> zwelch, not a hypothesis, but an observation
  406. [01:39:39] <limbo_> imagine the scale of a peer to peer solution over the blogosphere... you'd bring the net down in a day.
  407. [01:39:46] <factoryjoe> hmm
  408. [01:39:54] <factoryjoe> i think 'rati has a role for sure
  409. [01:39:55] <dotBen> for every post technorati knows of, there are probably 3 or 4 comments on average
  410. [01:40:05] <factoryjoe> i guess the thing is this
  411. [01:40:14] <factoryjoe> i can attend to a certain percentage of a conversation
  412. [01:40:16] <dotBen> so you're talking about a database of converastion many times bigger than technorati
  413. [01:40:17] <factoryjoe> like at a party
  414. [01:40:22] <factoryjoe> and get the "gist" of what's being said
  415. [01:40:27] <factoryjoe> i don't need to hear everything
  416. [01:40:28] <tantek> we know that the more visible the dA
  417. [01:40:28] <dotBen> (it's a bit odd referring to technorati when there are reps of the company in this chat!)
  418. [01:40:32] <factoryjoe> the blogosphere is like that
  419. [01:40:46] <tantek> dotben, not a problem, no offense taken ;)
  420. [01:40:49] <factoryjoe> p2p works for fuzzily overhearing
  421. [01:40:59] <dotBen> well, no, more as in whilst this might be obvious ideas
  422. [01:41:09] <dotBen> I don't really want to be helping technorati particuarlly
  423. [01:41:15] <dotBen> well, I take that back
  424. [01:41:16] <tantek> and besides, we are huge fans/supporters of open standards that enable decentralized solutions
  425. [01:41:17] <factoryjoe> 'rati would work for massive crunching
  426. [01:41:23] <dotBen> I don't want to be helping a profit-making company
  427. [01:41:34] <dotBen> could be technorati or any of your competitors
  428. [01:41:35] <factoryjoe> dotBen: the standards are open
  429. [01:41:35] <tantek> dotBen, don't make assumptions :)
  430. [01:41:37] <factoryjoe> and free
  431. [01:41:41] <dotBen> nothing against technorati per se
  432. [01:41:46] <factoryjoe> it's good that tantek has a dayjob to support this work
  433. [01:41:59] <factoryjoe> or tantek doing whatever it is he does
  434. [01:42:05] <dotBen> hmmm
  435. [01:42:12] <factoryjoe> so he can buy vegie burritos and have a nice girlfriend
  436. [01:42:18] <dotBen> well, as someone who charges other companies in this field for consulting at the moment...
  437. [01:42:22] <tantek> dotBen, we believe that good businesses can be built on open standards
  438. [01:42:24] <factoryjoe> otherwise he'd be distitute and doing the same thing
  439. [01:42:49] <tantek> as opposed to proprietary proposals <cough>base</cough>
  440. [01:42:54] <dotBen> sure
  441. [01:43:00] <dotBen> and I'm happy to support open standards
  442. [01:43:01] <factoryjoe> do you want tantek to end up like this? http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/97459528/
  443. [01:43:26] <dotBen> it's just if that merely leads to a new business venture for technorati -- which if this works, it will --
  444. [01:43:39] <dotBen> etc
  445. [01:43:51] <tantek> dotben, there are already too many potential business ventures for technorati to build upon microformats than there are technorati staff and time to do so
  446. [01:43:56] <tantek> seriously
  447. [01:44:01] <dotBen> I'm sure
  448. [01:44:09] <dotBen> but for someone there is a pot of cash here
  449. [01:44:18] <dotBen> if MT and Wordpress were to adopt this
  450. [01:44:26] <dotBen> which probably won't happen
  451. [01:44:28] <factoryjoe> dotBen: they're already going to adopt it
  452. [01:44:29] <dotBen> but if it did...
  453. [01:44:29] <tantek> we want to help make sure that the standards are open so that there can be more business opportunities, even if we're not necessarily the ones who take advantage of them
  454. [01:44:43] <factoryjoe> dotBen: you're just as able to make a business on this stuff
  455. [01:44:53] <dotBen> well, not really
  456. [01:44:57] <factoryjoe> well, um, yeah
  457. [01:45:00] <dotBen> for reasons I can't really go into
  458. [01:45:02] <dotBen> right now anyway
  459. [01:45:05] <tantek> the point is, open standards for all this stuff grows the pie for everyone, and helps solve problems we all want solved
  460. [01:45:06] <factoryjoe> well there you go
  461. [01:45:07] <factoryjoe> that
  462. [01:45:09] <factoryjoe> s your dilly
  463. [01:45:24] <factoryjoe> dotBen: it's the same for *all* standards
  464. [01:45:45] <factoryjoe> any standard is brings with it a rainbow with a pot of gold on the end
  465. [01:45:56] <factoryjoe> in this case it happens to have gold on both ends
  466. [01:46:01] <factoryjoe> (ok, that was SOOOO lame)
  467. [01:47:15] * tantek visualizes a flying unicorn.
  468. [01:48:03] <factoryjoe> you're so dead
  469. [01:48:14] <dotBen> hmmm you San Fran hippies
  470. [01:48:29] <factoryjoe> dotBen: you friggin UKian fascist
  471. [01:48:33] * tantek visualizes factoryjoe riding the flying unicorn over the aforementioned rainbow.
  472. [01:48:41] <factoryjoe> oh man
  473. [01:48:44] <dotBen> and that's coming from someone who up till now dedicated the majoriy of their career to the non-commercial involvment in IT/Internet
  474. [01:48:51] * factoryjoe to tantek: KAPOW!
  475. [01:48:59] <limbo_> factoryjoe, you mean imperialist
  476. [01:49:58] <factoryjoe> oh yes, sorry
  477. [01:50:04] <factoryjoe> i couldn't spell that one
  478. [01:57:16] * cee-dub|teatime is now known as cee-dub
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  483. [02:26:10] <dotBen> ok, it's 2:30 am here
  484. [02:26:13] <dotBen> really will turn in now...
  485. [02:26:16] <dotBen> laters all
  486. [02:26:21] <jakedahn> peace out
  487. [02:26:22] * dotBen (n=foo@dotben.plus.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
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  492. [02:48:02] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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  502. [05:48:46] * Frederic is now known as neuro`
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  507. [06:50:54] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  510. [07:48:57] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4904 * Tantek * (+388) some cleanup
  511. [08:03:18] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4905 * Tantek * (+357)
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  519. [09:48:47] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  521. [10:21:59] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  526. [11:20:00] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  531. [13:09:48] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  539. [14:42:58] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
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  541. [14:54:24] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  548. [15:49:55] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  549. [16:00:14] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  550. [16:00:28] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  551. [16:00:35] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  552. [16:04:12] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  553. [16:04:13] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  554. [16:16:24] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.84.188.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  555. [16:42:29] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@128.189.191.84) has joined #microformats
  556. [17:40:18] * Atamido_ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  557. [17:40:25] * Atamido_ is now known as Atamido
  558. [17:40:25] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  559. [18:00:48] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@67.102.164.116) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  560. [18:01:00] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  561. [18:02:21] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.84.188.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  562. [18:02:37] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@it.et.byu.edu) has joined #microformats
  563. [18:47:44] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@128.189.191.84) has joined #microformats
  564. [19:04:37] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@it.et.byu.edu) Quit ()
  565. [19:11:55] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  566. [19:24:00] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  567. [19:51:08] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
  568. [20:02:21] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  569. [20:06:32] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  570. [20:20:12] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  571. [20:20:12] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  572. [20:28:45] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  573. [20:28:45] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  574. [20:41:07] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  575. [20:52:01] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  576. [21:15:33] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  577. [21:39:08] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N161P025.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  578. [21:42:54] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  579. [22:21:17] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  580. [22:21:17] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  581. [22:32:55] * pnhChris_ (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  582. [22:34:40] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  583. [22:40:15] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@128.189.191.84) has joined #microformats
  584. [22:48:13] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2505P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  585. [22:48:13] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  586. [22:53:54] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  587. [23:09:54] <tantek> KevinMarks is talking about microformats at MooseCamp
  588. [23:10:03] <tantek> http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/nv.mov
  589. [23:14:38] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  590. [23:14:38] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  591. [23:20:48] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  592. [23:20:48] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  593. [23:20:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  594. [23:25:50] * markmansour (n=markmans@dsl-202-173-156-87.vic.westnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  595. [23:33:32] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  596. [23:33:33] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  597. [23:34:25] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@d220-236-137-16.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  598. [23:34:26] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  599. [23:38:25] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=4906 * Tantek * (+765) Apple Address Book exports CATEGORIES but does not import
  600. [23:40:19] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  601. [23:42:01] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  602. [23:45:06] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=4907 * Tantek * (+134) a little cleanup.
  603. [23:45:50] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  604. [23:53:32] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Success)

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.