IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:53:34] <mfbot>
[[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4889 * Rohit * (-12) Structured CFP -
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- [01:15:45] <mfbot>
[[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4890 * Rohit * (+9) Minimal Classified Ad -
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- [02:31:52] <rohit>
hi mark --
- [02:32:25] <rohit>
our javascript mf parser bookmarklet just passed 7000 lines :) :( !
- [02:32:33] <rohit>
how's yours, from what I hear?
- [02:50:32] <dmose>
rohit: that's a big bookmarklet!
- [02:50:47] <dmose>
what does it do once parsed, offer to save the item in the corresponding macro-format?
- [03:04:27] <rohit>
almost
- [03:05:01] <rohit>
it's called miffy, a microformats editor/inspector that finds what's on the page and extracts it to a search engine at tpd.angstro.net:19988.
- [03:05:58] <rohit>
if you want, you can click on search, (get no results), drag out hte bookmarklet, then go back to the home page and click on the logo to see the credits -- running miffy then will find the rel-license and hCard.
- [03:06:28] <rohit>
The mysterious part is that clicking on the Å logo in the miffy window will repost the found bits to angstro for search
- [03:06:42] <rohit>
the search also supports xquery, but that's another story...
- [03:07:42] <dmose>
interesting, i'll check that out
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- [04:59:26] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [05:20:25] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather & the spidermeist
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- [05:34:23] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:26:05] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather & the spidermeist
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- [06:47:06] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [08:00:51] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:08:13] <jibot>
KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather & the spidermeist
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- [09:08:39] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [09:17:10] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [10:45:12] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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- [11:47:29] <trovster>
Is there are link to a map in vcards?
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- [12:15:59] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [12:24:13] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [13:09:18] <bkdelong>
Morning
- [13:10:21] <markmansour>
evening
- [13:10:48] <bkdelong>
that too. ;)
- [13:11:01] <bkdelong>
[Insert your time-of-day greeting here]
- [13:11:15] <markmansour>
hehe.. it was just sitting there... I had to take it
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- [13:37:24] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [14:38:34] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [16:14:38] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [16:20:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [16:20:39] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [16:42:45] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [16:43:13] <trovster>
I've put a hcard into our sites promoting badge :d
- [16:58:44] <TantekC>
trovster - url?
- [16:59:16] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4891 * Trovster * (+177) New Examples -
- [17:00:44] <bewest|work>
I convinced churchzip.com to use hcard in it's gmap interface
- [17:00:47] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4892 * Trovster * (+91) New Examples -
- [17:01:24] <bewest|work>
eventually there'll be a refactor in the traditional interface, in which mf's will be used
- [17:01:41] <trovster>
TantekC: Well, they're the public viewable microformats, at the moment.
- [17:02:19] <trovster>
But the promote page - http://www.multipack.co.uk/promote/ - has a vcard for the badge.
- [17:08:24] <TantekC>
ah, very cool
- [17:08:49] <TantekC>
nice overylaying of the hCard and hCalendar event on the home page: http://www.multipack.co.uk/
- [17:09:01] <Atamido>
Nice spam title, "Former President Bill Klinton uses Voagra!"
- [17:09:12] <Atamido>
Lets see, how to mark that up...
- [17:09:34] <trovster>
TantekC: I think you suggested that hCard/hCalender event overlap1
- [17:11:25] <trovster>
The site also has rel="home" on the header.
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- [17:18:41] <pnhChris>
is there any way to designate the page authors vcard besides the address element?
- [17:18:49] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4893 * Ragdoll * (+237) New Examples -
- [17:19:55] <bkdelong>
Do we have any examples of using a single hcard property in a blog post? ie if I want to just point out that a name is a name ....? do I just do <span class="fn"></span> ? Or do I need to create a div with the vcard in there?
- [17:23:55] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4894 * Ragdoll * (+260) Examples -
- [17:24:21] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4895 * Ragdoll * (-260) Examples -
- [17:24:52] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4896 * Ragdoll * (+260) New Examples -
- [17:27:26] <trovster>
bkdelong: AFAIK, vcard needs to be defined. But if it's blog post, add it to the container
- [17:27:47] <bkdelong>
hrm...ok Here's the example:
- [17:28:21] <bkdelong>
<p class="vcard">I think this Post article by <span class="n"><span class="given-name">Dan</span> <span class="family-name">Froomkin</span></span> sums up a lot of the issues right now. You have <span class="n"><span class="given-name">Lewis</span> <span class="nickname">Scooter</span> <span class="family-name">Libby</span></span> - <span class="role">Cheney's ex-<span class="title">Chief of Staff</span></span> testifying that
- [17:28:51] <bkdelong>
I mean, is it even appropriate for me to be marking up other people's names with vcard?
- [17:29:31] <trovster>
Yes, it's appropriate!
- [17:29:50] <bkdelong>
Just checking. ;)
- [17:30:17] <bkdelong>
oops. Plame should be family-name
- [17:32:19] <bkdelong>
any thoughts on properly marking up Cheney's ex-Chief of Staff? I'm not sure if I should include the "ex" in there as that isn't an official title. Not to mention that Cheney is a family-name: <span class="role">Cheney's ex-<span class="title">Chief of Staff</span></span>
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- [17:32:29] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [17:36:16] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:36:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:36:36] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
- [17:36:41] <bkdelong>
Hey tantek.
- [17:36:43] * tantek sets mode +o rohit
- [17:36:46] <tantek>
hey bk
- [17:37:46] <bkdelong>
Actually, you know trovster, I think I have to add a vcard class before every case of a different name.
- [17:38:03] <trovster>
Yes, you do.
- [17:38:12] <bkdelong>
messy.
- [17:38:15] <trovster>
I have it on here -> http://www.multipack.co.uk/members/
- [17:39:51] <bkdelong>
gotcha ok.
- [17:43:35] <bkdelong>
My god....what a nasty set of nested HTML. :)
- [17:43:37] <bkdelong>
<p>I think <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/02/10/BL2006021000760.html">this Post article</a> by <span class="vcard"><span class="n"><span class="given-name">Dan</span> <span class="family-name">Froomkin</span></span></span> sums up a lot of the issues right now. You have <span class="vcard"><span class="n"><span class="given-name">Lewis</span> "<span class="nickname">Scooter</span>" <span class=
- [17:45:08] <tantek>
bk, you can use the fn/n shortcut in those
- [17:45:25] <bkdelong>
?
- [17:45:30] <tantek>
hmm... and actually, they are missing the "fn" so they are invalid
- [17:45:49] <bkdelong>
Wait....I thought n was appropriate
- [17:46:00] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22N.22_Optimization
- [17:46:23] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-example1-steps#hCard_example_iteration_2:_element_conservation
- [17:47:12] <bkdelong>
ah ok...so "fn n"
- [17:47:31] <tantek>
right, that will make it valid
- [17:47:48] <bkdelong>
What about the title/role for Libby?
- [17:48:01] <tantek>
but in this case, since all they have is given and family names, you can use the fn shortcut
- [17:48:25] <tantek>
oh right, with the nickname in the middle like that, you need the full "n" markup
- [17:48:35] * tantek didn't see the end of the markup
- [17:48:49] <tantek>
where is the title/role for Libby?
- [17:48:49] <bkdelong>
;)
- [17:49:08] <tantek>
your markup got clipped at: ...Scooter</span>" <span class=
- [17:49:14] <bkdelong>
<span class="vcard"><span class="n"><span class="given-name">Lewis</span> "<span class="nickname">Scooter</span>" <span class="family-name">Libby</span></span> - <span class="role"><span class="vcard"><span class="n"><span class="family-name">Cheney</span></span></span>'s ex-<span class="title">Chief of Staff</span></span></span>
- [17:49:42] <bkdelong>
I dont think I can markup Cheney's last name. Not enough contextuality to mark it as a vcard
- [17:50:03] <bkdelong>
Unless I simply add his first name. Damn my laziness!
- [17:50:09] <tantek>
right - it's an adjective there, not a noun
- [17:50:53] <bkdelong>
So it is assumed with fn that if there are just two words, they're given-name and family-name.....
- [17:51:39] <TantekC>
right, that's the shortcut
- [17:51:57] <bkdelong>
Can a title be nested in a role?
- [17:51:58] <TantekC>
there is another proposed fn shortcut - if there is only one word, it is a nickname
- [17:52:04] <TantekC>
yes
- [17:52:10] <TantekC>
in general, anything can be nested in anything
- [17:53:07] <bkdelong>
So what if I said VP Dick Cheney's Chief of Staff? Would that warrant vcard fn/titleing Cheney?
- [17:55:13] <qid>
I think when the markup:visible content ratio hits 20:1 or whatever that sample has, it's getting a tad ridiculous
- [17:55:21] <tantek>
you certainly could
- [17:55:44] <tantek>
essentially, hCard provides the closest thing to a <person> element in (X)HTML
- [17:55:53] <tantek>
that's the way to think of it
- [17:56:31] <qid>
I can't imagine any normal human being putting that many span tags in
- [17:56:47] <pnhChris>
doesn't have to bu human
- [17:56:50] <bkdelong>
Eventually it could be automated.
- [17:57:13] <tantek>
qid, ideally you would just have a little "person" button (just like WYSIWYG UIs have "link') buttons, that could either insert the markup for you, or give you a drop down list of people to choose from
- [17:57:29] <bkdelong>
Or I could cut and paste Dan Froomkin's name from the WashPost byline and my hCard plugin can pull the revant markup from WashPost, (if they used it), and auto-include it in my document.
- [17:57:37] <tantek>
yes
- [17:58:02] <bkdelong>
But yes, it's ridiculous to a degree...but we have to start somewhere.
- [17:58:04] <tantek>
or if you started typing a person's name in your address book, the editor could auto-complete a minimal hCard (name and URL)
- [17:58:16] <tantek>
*from* your address book
- [17:58:24] <bkdelong>
Right. or a dynamic wikipedia-like lookup
- [17:58:34] <bkdelong>
similar to what Trillian uses
- [17:58:36] <tantek>
right, for names in general
- [17:59:18] <tantek>
and of course, this auto-complete could also benefit from all the people's names that your browser has seen while parsing hCards during your browsing
- [17:59:30] <tantek>
so they wouldn't even have to be in your address book
- [17:59:46] <pnhChris>
.. or a more contained case... a CMS that knows previous names that have been entered
- [17:59:56] <bkdelong>
right
- [18:00:09] <bkdelong>
a dynamic hCard Dreamweaver extension
- [18:01:09] <tantek>
yes
- [18:02:31] <trovster>
I put my hCards through a site to give me the vCards, and it only gave me the first one on the page.
- [18:03:03] <tantek>
hmm... could be a markup problem. which URL?
- [18:03:13] <trovster>
That members one
- [18:04:43] <bkdelong>
what is the URL for the site to "get" the vCards?
- [18:05:15] <trovster>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://www.multipack.co.uk/members/
- [18:08:53] <tantek>
hmm.... I'm not seeing *any*
- [18:09:27] <tantek>
what happens when you remove the "fli" from "fli vcard"?
- [18:09:45] <tantek>
also, I noticed the "org fn" outside any hCards for "Multipack"
- [18:10:09] <trovster>
Yes, they're whereever Multipack is mentioned.
- [18:10:26] <trovster>
That's not the issue. And it's valid HTML too. They appear using Tails.
- [18:13:59] <tantek>
right, that should be fine
- [18:14:14] <tantek>
did you try removing "fli" from Simon's hCard?
- [18:15:10] <trovster>
No need. When running that script posted above, Simon's vCard appears.
- [18:15:34] <trovster>
All I'm saying is, that that script only gives the vCard of the first hCard it finds.
- [18:19:40] <trovster>
Anyhoo. Gotta go home. Be back in 15m
- [18:19:43] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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- [18:21:44] * tantek asks Brian Suda to take a look at what X2V is doing with trovster's hCards.
- [18:21:56] <bkdelong>
cool
- [18:22:06] <bkdelong>
Does jibot take messages for people?
- [18:28:30] <TantekC>
not AFAIK
- [18:29:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:29:01] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [18:29:53] <pnhChris>
no need to save a message i guess :P
- [18:30:12] <bkdelong>
actually, I meant for trovster. ;)
- [18:34:45] <tantek>
brian, you had trouble reproducing trovster's problem?
- [18:35:43] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:35:43] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [18:37:33] <briansuda>
yes, when i extract the vCards, i get all 16 just fine
- [18:37:43] <TantekC>
trovster, that's in reference to your page
- [18:38:29] <trovster>
Extract with?
- [18:40:21] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:42:23] <briansuda>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?beta=yes&uri=http%3A//www.multipack.co.uk/members/
- [18:49:02] <tantek>
brian, what if you try without the "beta=yes"?
- [18:49:34] * limbo_zzz is now known as limbo_
- [18:49:59] <briansuda>
it doesn't matter, with or without, i have done, both
- [18:56:17] * danja (i=DannyAye@host245-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [18:57:19] <tantek>
odd, same here brian. both work for me now.
- [18:57:33] <tantek>
trovster, did you change something in the markup?
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- [18:59:46] <jibot>
Ragdoll is learning to use jibot
- [18:59:53] <trovster>
Nope. I literally drove home. Heh!
- [19:00:06] <Ragdoll>
Hello, folks.
- [19:00:20] <briansuda>
glad to be of service! i like when things fix themselves
- [19:00:29] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
- [19:01:37] <Ragdoll>
The last guy to use the Ragdoll handle registered a year ago and left a day later. Think this can be cleared so I can use it?
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- [19:12:35] <Ragdoll>
Is there an application out right now that collects hCalendar data? Like a place where I could look up events in Lincoln, Nebraska and it aggregates all the appropriate data.
- [19:28:02] <tantek>
bk, see your email ;)
- [19:28:06] <qid>
Ragdoll: we can't help you with Freenode network issues, FYI
- [19:28:31] <tantek>
ragdoll, i believe EVDB is working on aggregating hCalendar
- [19:29:41] <Ragdoll>
Cool, I will check it out.
- [19:30:52] <Ragdoll>
Wow, how does this know my location without me explicitly telling it?
- [19:31:04] <bkdelong>
Thanks, Tantek. Very helpful.
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- [19:33:37] <pnhChris>
am i missing something at eventful? whys it look like the site thinks its september
- [19:35:56] <hober>
tantek: unfortunately, we're not working on that, no
- [19:36:03] <hober>
Ragdoll: IP geolocation
- [19:36:07] <hober>
pnhChris: how do you mean?
- [19:36:46] * hober works on eventful, in case that isn't obvious from the replies :)
- [19:37:13] <pnhChris>
non registered user, go to the site for the first time in who knows how long... see "upcoming events in USA.. and they're sep3+ sep 12+ sep 17+.. etc
- [19:37:55] <hober>
pnhChris: thanks. looking into it
- [19:37:57] <pnhChris>
ah.. its all year long "events"
- [19:38:10] <pnhChris>
sep 3 2005 - sep 30 2006
- [19:39:15] <hober>
right.
- [19:39:35] * hober makes a note to fix our little calendar-like date display dudes, to make that more clear
- [19:39:52] <mfbot>
[[press-faq]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/press-faq * Tantek * (+687) created. might as well answer press questions on the wiki.
- [19:39:54] <hober>
You might call what it's doing a feature, maybe
- [19:39:56] <hober>
:/
- [19:40:34] <pnhChris>
i guess i don't expect ongoing perfomances of a comedy troupe to be an "upcoming" event vs. an "ongoing" thing
- [19:40:58] <mfbot>
[[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=4897 * Tantek * (+154)
- [19:41:00] <hober>
well, the particular performances that haven't happened yet are upcoming, yes?
- [19:41:12] <pnhChris>
or the upcoming thing be specific to the night this week they're playing so that it doesn't get stuck in a search query as sept of last year
- [19:41:41] <hober>
Typically, the IP geolocation stuff will get a better location for you, not something generic like USA.
- [19:41:53] <hober>
and in more specific locations, this is much less of an issue
- [19:42:05] <hober>
but it is an issue, which has been raised with the relevant people
- [19:42:08] <pnhChris>
and less if i was signed up i'm sure
- [19:42:12] <pnhChris>
just an odd first impression
- [19:42:15] <hober>
I agree
- [19:46:23] <tantek>
yes, note that upcoming has *also* ditched recurring events
- [19:46:29] <tantek>
as well as EVDB
- [19:46:37] <hober>
We ditched recurring events?
- [19:46:50] <tantek>
that's what Brian keeps saying
- [19:46:53] <tantek>
(your Brian)
- [19:47:04] <hober>
That's, err, interesting.
- [19:47:14] <tantek>
because it caused too much noise in results
- [19:47:17] <tantek>
they caused
- [19:48:36] <hober>
We support recurring events from non-user data sources, but don't have a recurrence UI in place for users when adding/editing events.
- [19:48:48] <tantek>
ah that's it
- [19:49:07] <tantek>
odd that you trust non-user data sources more than users
- [19:49:15] <hober>
Recurrence UI is hard; let's go shopping!
- [19:49:19] * tantek thinks of Encyclopedia Britannica vs. Wikipedia.
- [19:49:27] <hober>
Well, parsing RRULEs isn't hard.
- [19:49:33] <tantek>
uh
- [19:49:38] <pnhChris>
i guess if they could be handled more like recurring events in the listing.. with perhaps a limit on how many times they could repeat or for how long it would cut down on the noise (have to relist monthly for example).. but i can see that.. 10 museums posting their daily repeating schedules and you don't have much room left
- [19:49:46] <hober>
(well {R,D}{RULE,DATE})
- [19:49:49] <tantek>
hober, I *dare* you to repeat that on the ietf-calsify list
- [19:49:53] <hober>
heh.
- [19:50:04] <hober>
Obviously, I'm not the one who has to write that part of the code.
- [19:50:18] <hober>
But hey, the code got written, and it works, so there you go.
- [19:50:52] <tantek>
i'm just saying many others have tried, and only gotten like 90% or so to work
- [19:51:05] <hober>
What I mean is that parsing iCal is at least reasonably algorithmic. Creating great, usable UI isn't.
- [19:51:10] <tantek>
including across DST changes etc.
- [19:51:30] <tantek>
hober, that's certainly true
- [19:52:04] <qid>
hober: hmm, what happens if someone visits your site from a multihomed IP address?
- [19:52:22] <hober>
qid: dunno
- [19:56:33] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
- [19:58:28] * dglazkov likes the recurring events conversation
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- [20:00:08] <dglazkov>
I would like to solve the recurring events UI problem...
- [20:02:10] <pnhChris>
does the ical format have a way to exclude certain dates or repetitions in the cycle? I'm not very familiar with it unfortunately
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- [20:02:51] <hober>
pnhChris: yes, DDATE and DRULE
- [20:03:04] <hober>
err, sorry, XDATE and XRULE
- [20:03:11] <hober>
something like that anyway
- [20:03:28] <hober>
the exclusion rules and dates are exactly the same as the recurrence rules/dates
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- [20:13:23] <Ragdoll>
hober: What service do you use for the geolocation?
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- [20:40:12] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [20:53:52] <hober>
Ragdoll: We bought a geolocation db, but I don't know which one offhand.
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- [21:07:39] <KevinMarks>
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/nv.mov
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- [21:41:16] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [21:49:32] <TantekC>
hey Kevin, join #barcamp
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- [22:11:16] <jibot>
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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- [22:30:22] <TantekC>
they're talking about tagging at MooseCamp: http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/nv.mov
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- [22:42:10] <_psychic_>
TantekC: Are you there at the session?
- [22:45:51] <KevinMarks>
I am
- [22:46:21] <_psychic_>
I can't quite hear well - but what is the alternative to tagging they are discussing?
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- [23:12:25] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [23:22:11] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [23:25:17] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
- [23:30:50] * dotBen (n=foo@dotben.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:30:51] <jibot>
dotBen is Ben Metcalfe & blogging at http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/ & civil to mena http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/70863244/ & not at BarCampNYC & the guy who likes to say bullshit & prone to shouting "Bullshit" in IRC Backchannels & does not like Apple computers & the man behind http://backstage.bbc.co.uk - the BBC's developer network
- [23:30:59] <TantekC>
welcome ben!
- [23:31:01] <dotBen>
hey
- [23:31:26] <dotBen>
comments microformat
- [23:31:36] <TantekC>
to set the context a bit
- [23:31:38] <TantekC>
there are currently three fairly active, fairly well proceeding blog-related microformat efforts
- [23:31:39] <dotBen>
(perhaps _conversation_ microformat, acutaly... hmmm not sure)
- [23:31:55] <TantekC>
I think comments on a blog are a different enough case to justify studying as such
- [23:32:10] <TantekC>
First there is hAtom for marking up posts in a blog
- [23:32:16] <TantekC>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom
- [23:32:32] <dotBen>
yup
- [23:32:51] <TantekC>
Second, we have the blog-description work which is all about marking up everything else in a blog, see here for starters: http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-description-examples
- [23:33:29] <dotBen>
yes, that's sort of the "vs structured blogging" stuff
- [23:33:31] <TantekC>
And Third, we have the blog-info work for documenting how people describe and reference blogs from other sites. http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-info-examples
- [23:33:32] <dotBen>
<ducks>
- [23:33:34] <dotBen>
:)
- [23:33:41] <TantekC>
heh, not quite
- [23:33:53] <TantekC>
the portions of a blog besides the posts
- [23:33:57] <dotBen>
I see
- [23:34:05] <TantekC>
e.g. the header with description, author, contact info, blogrolls, footer with license etc.
- [23:34:44] <dotBen>
well, for me it's a bout solving a problem
- [23:34:45] <TantekC>
that's what blog-description is for
- [23:34:50] <TantekC>
good!
- [23:35:11] <dotBen>
the problem is how do you tack comments -- you've made, on your blog, on blogs your interested in
- [23:35:16] <TantekC>
part of the microformats process is that we research existing behavior *first* before proposing any solutions BTW
- [23:35:16] <dotBen>
track*
- [23:35:22] <dotBen>
quite
- [23:35:26] <TantekC>
ah yes
- [23:35:38] <TantekC>
basically, how do we do a distributed CoComment?
- [23:35:45] <dotBen>
it's the problem cocomment is trying to solve, but onto that in moment
- [23:35:59] <dotBen>
well
- [23:36:01] <dotBen>
have you seen http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/02/05/cocomment-semantically-forked-conversation/
- [23:36:19] <dotBen>
that's the other reason for it -- cocomment fundamentally doesn't work
- [23:36:34] <dotBen>
and will never work in the longtail where the chances of the audience using cocomment are next to 0
- [23:37:25] <dotBen>
<lets you have a read of that blog post>
- [23:37:31] <dotBen>
brb
- [23:39:36] <TantekC>
yikes!
- [23:39:45] <TantekC>
the semantically forking thing is really stupid
- [23:39:47] <TantekC>
ugh
- [23:39:51] <TantekC>
i had no idea
- [23:39:54] <dotBen>
yeah
- [23:40:00] <dotBen>
to be honest
- [23:40:01] <dotBen>
it's shit
- [23:40:10] <TantekC>
so is asking *every* person who comments to sign up for the service
- [23:40:12] <dotBen>
I have to say at leat they got _something_ out to solve the problem
- [23:40:14] <dotBen>
yes
- [23:40:15] <TantekC>
like you said, that won't work
- [23:40:21] <TantekC>
right
- [23:40:35] <dotBen>
because they can't screen scrape every different template to get the other non-cocomment submitted comments out
- [23:40:45] <dotBen>
it's a nice try, but no cigar
- [23:40:52] <TantekC>
right
- [23:41:05] <dotBen>
and what's worse is you actually get mis-representation
- [23:41:10] <dotBen>
as I said, what about spam
- [23:41:24] <dotBen>
or comments you choose to remove/edit (not that you should edit, but if you legally need to etc)
- [23:41:39] <BenjaminCarlyle>
Gahh.. too much email to catch up on. I'll try to look into recent hAtom happenings today, or tomorrow.
- [23:41:46] <TantekC>
yeah, the fact that there is more than one "version" of a comment is a big problem
- [23:41:55] <dotBen>
also, as the blog owner, I loose control of MY representation of MY comments
- [23:42:02] <dotBen>
(on MY post)
- [23:42:10] <dotBen>
ok, so it's shit
- [23:42:13] <dotBen>
so what can we do?
- [23:42:22] <dotBen>
well for a start there are a number of behaviors here
- [23:42:49] <dotBen>
1) people like me, probably you, who's exposure in the blogosphere is mainly via newsreader and agregators
- [23:42:50] <TantekC>
what you're asking for is really a comment aggregator
- [23:43:02] <dotBen>
well that's the outcome from the microformat
- [23:43:06] <TantekC>
something that aggregates *comments* on blog posts in addition to the posts themselves
- [23:43:11] <dotBen>
yes
- [23:43:18] <TantekC>
and then does intelligent things with them in the UI
- [23:43:19] <dotBen>
but of course you can then do lots of other cool things too
- [23:43:19] <KevinMarks>
i want the blog services that authenticate comments to create 'blogs' of them
- [23:43:24] <TantekC>
(insert UI cleverness here ;) )
- [23:43:41] <dotBen>
at the moment, I'm at the level where I want to output the XML
- [23:43:54] <TantekC>
heh, don't assume XML ;)
- [23:43:54] <dotBen>
what you then do with it is up to you
- [23:43:59] <dotBen>
well
- [23:44:13] <KevinMarks>
# inculde 'xhtml is xml'
- [23:44:21] <TantekC>
that's part of the point of microformats. you don't actually need to create yet another version of the data.
- [23:44:22] <dotBen>
like I said - the behavior I'm thinking about is people like me who use agregators - not browsers - to access the blogosphere
- [23:44:39] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-78-222.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:44:40] <jibot>
jakedahn is Jake Dahn he blogs at http://jakedahn.com . He also runs http://looce.com and is a volunteer @ Flock and BarCamp's Official Kid
- [23:44:43] <TantekC>
sure, comment aggregators can offer RSS feeds of aggregated comments
- [23:45:19] <dotBen>
we should discuss the xhtml/xml thing later/another time -- that's an interesting debate for various reasons
- [23:45:20] <BenjaminCarlyle>
Comment aggregation could work in with distributed-conversation. You could treat them as individual blog entries hosted with the entry being commented on. They aren't that different to h
- [23:45:21] <dotBen>
:)
- [23:45:33] <BenjaminCarlyle>
Ooops.. to hentry
- [23:46:06] <dotBen>
hmmm but from an object perspective blogs posts are different to comments
- [23:46:22] <BenjaminCarlyle>
As I understand things the atom committee deliberatly wrote the comment problem off as too hard to solve in a feed format. It could still be solved externally, though.
- [23:46:23] <dotBen>
there are many other properties a blog post can have that a comment doesnt
- [23:46:33] <TantekC>
correct
- [23:46:35] <dotBen>
ok ok
- [23:46:39] <TantekC>
it is a different problem
- [23:46:41] <dotBen>
can I outline an _idea_ I have
- [23:46:43] <TantekC>
similar, but different
- [23:46:50] <BenjaminCarlyle>
I'm kind of struggling to think of any... do you have an example?
- [23:46:53] <TantekC>
ben, how about researching and documenting it first
- [23:47:09] <TantekC>
benjamin, it might be a strict subset
- [23:47:10] <BenjaminCarlyle>
I'm thinking of a comment as being pretty much the same as a blog entry I write in distributed-converstation style about the original blog entry...
- [23:47:13] <dotBen>
Ben: technorati tags, enclosures
- [23:47:19] <dotBen>
catagoris
- [23:47:29] <BenjaminCarlyle>
Ok, that makes sens.
- [23:47:30] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
- [23:47:30] <BenjaminCarlyle>
e.
- [23:47:34] <TantekC>
it may be that a comment is a strict subset of an entry
- [23:47:46] <TantekC>
but we should research it first to determine it
- [23:47:47] <dotBen>
well, I disagree
- [23:47:54] <TantekC>
ben, hence *may*
- [23:47:55] <dotBen>
I think comments are very different
- [23:47:58] <dotBen>
lol
- [23:48:00] <dotBen>
ok
- [23:48:01] <dotBen>
:)
- [23:48:09] <TantekC>
ben, i'm not saying i know either
- [23:48:21] <TantekC>
this is why step 1 is research and document examples
- [23:48:24] <dotBen>
well to go back to behaviors
- [23:48:32] <dotBen>
the intersting thing I would like to mini-brainstorm
- [23:48:39] <dotBen>
is what other 'problems' are there around comment
- [23:48:42] <dotBen>
comments
- [23:48:52] <dotBen>
tracking is one (a la cocomments)
- [23:48:57] <dotBen>
agregating is another
- [23:49:10] <dotBen>
searching (a la technorati for conversation) is another
- [23:49:16] <dotBen>
but there may be others
- [23:49:18] <dotBen>
????
- [23:49:23] <BenjaminCarlyle>
I guess the interesting question from the aggregation question is whether you would try to aggregate blog entries about something and comments about that some thing together...
- [23:49:56] <TantekC>
i want the Flickr "Comments you've made" feature
- [23:50:02] <dotBen>
yes
- [23:50:12] <TantekC>
but across the whole web
- [23:50:14] <dotBen>
exactly
- [23:50:38] <dotBen>
well, if the microformat was adopted, there's a whole business in there for a technorati/pubsub/icerocket of converastion
- [23:50:42] <TantekC>
ok, that's a good problem statement
- [23:50:48] <TantekC>
so now we head to the wiki
- [23:51:05] <TantekC>
dotBen, take a moment to read http://microformats.org/wiki/process
- [23:51:12] <dotBen>
sure
- [23:51:22] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [23:51:28] <factoryjoe>
looks like i missed a good discussion
- [23:51:37] <factoryjoe>
comments, in my thinking, are a browser's "sent mail"
- [23:51:39] <TantekC>
chris, it has just begun, don't worry
- [23:51:51] <TantekC>
reread from archives to catch up
- [23:51:58] <dotBen>
can I ask a question Taktek
- [23:52:06] <dotBen>
which maybe you can't answer but would be nice...
- [23:52:14] <TantekC>
yes of course
- [23:52:15] <dotBen>
is this a problem technorati is already working on solving?
- [23:52:38] <dotBen>
because if it is then it kind of would be good to know
- [23:52:39] <TantekC>
it is a problem we would *like* to solve, but are not solving currently
- [23:52:42] <dotBen>
ok
- [23:52:44] <dotBen>
that's cool
- [23:52:52] <TantekC>
it is a *difficult* problem
- [23:53:04] <KevinMarks>
well, insofar as blogposts are comments we do
- [23:53:07] <dotBen>
and just out of curiosity. from your experience...
- [23:53:12] <dotBen>
what are the difficult aspects?
- [23:53:15] <TantekC>
Kevin, we're not talking about that
- [23:53:15] <dotBen>
aother than adoption
- [23:53:24] <factoryjoe>
this is an attention issue too
- [23:53:27] <factoryjoe>
for example
- [23:53:28] <TantekC>
we're specifically scoping the discussion to *comments* on *blogs*
- [23:53:31] <factoryjoe>
if i add an event to upcoming
- [23:53:41] <factoryjoe>
it should list my comments next to events created...
- [23:53:51] <KevinMarks>
attribution/authentication of commenter is hard
- [23:54:11] <TantekC>
Kevin, that might be necessary for all applications
- [23:54:15] <dotBen>
Kevin - that's an area I definitely DON'T want to try and solve
- [23:54:19] <dotBen>
not for this anyway,
- [23:54:28] <dotBen>
otherwise it will never happen
- [23:54:36] <TantekC>
right, let's keep this simple folks
- [23:54:41] <dotBen>
for me it's about a programtic representation of the comments list I see on a given blog post
- [23:54:41] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [23:54:55] <dotBen>
at this point in time I don't care whether the "factoryjoe" who has posted on a gien blog is really chris m or not
- [23:55:05] <dotBen>
given*
- [23:55:10] <factoryjoe>
agreed
- [23:55:17] <factoryjoe>
i think it's about watching a discussion
- [23:55:20] <factoryjoe>
and seeing threads emerge
- [23:55:25] <dotBen>
bingo
- [23:55:28] <pnhChris>
hmm.. maybe i should stop commenting as "chris"
- [23:55:31] <factoryjoe>
gmail for the blogosphere
- [23:55:34] <TantekC>
irc is still quite useful, even though you don't always know that a nickname is always the same person
- [23:55:47] <dotBen>
what we MIGHT need is a unique identifier for commentor
- [23:56:00] <TantekC>
you mean like a URL?
- [23:56:01] <dotBen>
if you want to traverse comment representations in a search/agregator environment
- [23:56:02] <TantekC>
:)
- [23:56:04] <dotBen>
yes
- [23:56:06] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [23:56:08] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [23:56:09] <factoryjoe>
damn
- [23:56:11] <factoryjoe>
i need rhyzo
- [23:56:13] <TantekC>
like maybe their *BLOG* url ? :)
- [23:56:15] <dotBen>
perhaps an md5 of the email, generated by the blog engine
- [23:56:19] <TantekC>
yuck
- [23:56:22] <factoryjoe>
yeah yuck
- [23:56:23] <pnhChris>
i don't always use a url.. particularly when they're blogs of eople i know
- [23:56:24] <dotBen>
I said maybe
- [23:56:24] <KevinMarks>
ew
- [23:56:30] <dotBen>
I just thoutht of it in my head
- [23:56:37] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: FOOL!
- [23:56:40] <pnhChris>
so its just "chris" .. and thus i figure the comment is lost
- [23:56:41] <factoryjoe>
INFIDEL!
- [23:56:42] <dotBen>
but look
- [23:56:50] <dotBen>
you have two options on that:
- [23:56:53] <TantekC>
dotBen, so first things first
- [23:56:57] <dotBen>
1) acess a central service
- [23:56:59] <factoryjoe>
been smokin' the hash tables again eh?
- [23:57:03] <TantekC>
let's document the examples
- [23:57:14] <dotBen>
2) geneate unique identigiers in the blog engine and hope everyone ends up with the same
- [23:57:31] <dotBen>
and both are messy and beyond what I want to do with this format
- [23:58:08] <TantekC>
right, punt on the whole uniqueids thing
- [23:58:15] <TantekC>
they are not necessary, and a huge rathole
- [23:58:24] <TantekC>
and then you get into all the identity arguments etc.
- [23:58:34] <KevinMarks>
use urls, move on
- [23:58:43] <TantekC>
agreed
- [23:58:45] <dotBen>
so look
- [23:58:51] <dotBen>
do all your microformats end up being xhtml
- [23:58:54] <dotBen>
cos that's sucky too
- [23:58:59] <dotBen>
sorry but it's true
- [23:59:02] <TantekC>
no, that's what people actually use on the web
- [23:59:03] <KevinMarks>
eh?
- [23:59:11] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4898 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+207) href and quote example
- [23:59:44] <factoryjoe>
dotBen: whoah man, you're in the microformats channel now
- [23:59:50] <factoryjoe>
show some civility
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