IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  4. [00:09:52] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  10. [00:30:06] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  13. [00:41:02] <jibot> yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
  14. [00:41:04] <yakk> whee
  15. [00:41:17] <yakk> I have a question
  16. [00:41:23] <yakk> I was just bad-mouthing hCard
  17. [00:41:27] <yakk> and I want to be proved wrong
  18. [00:42:38] <yakk> why does PHOTO map to <img src="..." class="photo"> but LOGO isn't defined to have that behaviour?
  19. [00:43:24] <yakk> and a far more important question - are there plans to extend the vCard data model to support things that weren't relevant in 1998 such as blog address, instant messenger id etc?
  20. [00:44:33] <tantek> yakk, both PHOTO and LOGO are defined to have that behavior
  21. [00:44:54] <tantek> for the others, see hcard-examples
  22. [00:46:16] <yakk> tantek, ok that wasn't clear to me from skimming the spec
  23. [00:48:38] <tantek> yakk, that is good to know
  24. [00:49:04] <tantek> in this case, you have to know that both PHOTO and LOGO take a value of type URL (which is defined in RFC 2426, not hCard itself)
  25. [00:49:13] <tantek> and then in hcard-parsing, it says:
  26. [00:49:15] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
  27. [00:49:26] <tantek> For properties that may take type URL or URI, parsers MUST handle relative URLs and normalize them to their respective absolute URLs, following the containing document's language's rules for resolving relative URLs (e.g. <base> for HTML, xml:base for XML). In addition, when the element for that property is:
  28. [00:49:31] <tantek> * <a href> : use the value of the 'href' attribute.
  29. [00:49:34] <tantek> * <img src> : use the value of the 'src' attribute. If the 'src' is a "data:" URL, use the MIME type in that "data:" URL for the TYPE subproperty, otherwise if the the 'type' attribute is present, us that for the TYPE subproperty.
  30. [00:49:40] <yakk> tantek, it looks like the answer for how to represent IM, blog, etc is just to use an URL - and its up to the consumer of the url to know what to do?
  31. [00:50:04] <tantek> correct. if consumers know special semantics per the scheme or domain of a URL, then they can do smart things.
  32. [00:50:52] <yakk> tantek, ahh cool - I'll read hcard-parsing
  33. [00:52:02] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5026 * EranGloben * (+422) /* Moving Forward - added resolution
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  37. [01:24:25] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  45. [01:43:33] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  50. [01:56:00] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  64. [02:54:56] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  66. [02:58:08] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  80. [06:06:01] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  85. [07:34:08] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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  87. [07:45:38] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  93. [10:14:22] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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  105. [13:10:25] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  107. [14:39:26] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  108. [14:39:27] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  112. [15:01:22] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  114. [15:10:56] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  115. [15:11:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  117. [15:27:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  122. [16:05:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  130. [16:37:25] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  135. [17:09:21] <dglazkov> anybody from Columbus here?
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  145. [17:46:09] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  149. [18:23:25] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  155. [18:36:29] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  161. [18:44:30] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  164. [18:47:30] <tantek> greetings everyone
  165. [18:47:51] <tantek> David Janes, myself, Ryan King, Rohit and a bunch of other microformats folks are all at mashupcamp today. http://mashupcamp.com/
  166. [18:48:06] <tantek> we're going to be finalizing hAtom 0.1, hResume 0.1, and hReview 0.3
  167. [18:48:13] <tantek> at 13:00 PST
  168. [18:48:38] <tantek> I'm working on setting up an iSight with QuickTime broadcaster so folks can listen/watch
  169. [18:48:48] <tantek> and then on this end we'll have the irc channel
  170. [18:51:36] <davecardwell> good stuff, thanks for the update
  171. [18:52:40] <tantek> installing QT7 as we speak
  172. [18:58:14] <KevinMarks> hi tantek
  173. [18:58:56] <tantek> hey Kevin!
  174. [18:59:01] <tantek> I'll be needing your help shortly
  175. [18:59:04] <KevinMarks> yes
  176. [18:59:05] <tantek> with setting up this broadcaster stuff
  177. [18:59:15] <tantek> already upgraded to 10.3.9, and just about done installing QT7
  178. [18:59:27] <KevinMarks> I cna give you a template doc for broadcaster
  179. [19:01:03] <KevinMarks> I didn't make it to MuchoCamp yesterday - I was sick most of the day
  180. [19:01:18] <KevinMarks> something I had on sunday didn't agree with me
  181. [19:01:40] <tantek> hope you feel better Kevin!
  182. [19:01:55] * Atamido might not make it to SXSW. :(
  183. [19:01:57] <tantek> there was enough no-shows at mashupcamp that they invited the muchocamp folks over
  184. [19:02:05] <tantek> so it all converged in the afternoon
  185. [19:03:25] <Atamido> My brother is getting married, so I will be gone for much of it.
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  188. [19:18:49] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=5027 * Tantek * (+646) added notes on using QT broadcaster at events
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  195. [19:35:13] <hober> re: finalizing hResume 0.1
  196. [19:35:34] * tantek (n=tantek@207.47.11.5) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  197. [19:36:38] <hober> the <object class="fn n" data="#me"></object> technique for not repeating the person's name over and over again breaks in Safari, at least here. here's a test page (which appears to work in IE and Firefox for me, but not Safari): http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/object-test.html
  198. [19:38:18] <hober> here's what it looks like in safari: http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/object-test.png
  199. [19:38:35] <hober> note that display: none has no effect
  200. [19:39:14] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  201. [19:40:25] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=5028 * Tantek * (+310) Quicktime Broadcaster Notes -
  202. [19:45:03] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  203. [19:45:27] * kingryan_ (n=kingryan@207.47.11.51) has joined #microformats
  204. [19:45:46] <kingryan_> ah, network dropped
  205. [19:46:10] <kingryan_> I didn't see anything since my last message
  206. [19:46:58] <hober> kingryan: I was just saying that I've got a test case for that Safari issue with your <object class="fn n" data="#me"></object> hack: http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/object-test.html and http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/object-test.png
  207. [19:47:13] <hober> it appears to work just fine in IE and Firefox, but not Safari
  208. [19:47:16] <kingryan_> yes, here's a possible tweak http://theryanking.com/temp/object-test2.html
  209. [19:48:16] <hober> oh, hey.
  210. [19:48:42] <kingryan_> if we drop the '#' and just make it an 'id' rather than a local URL, we could do alright
  211. [19:49:09] <hober> but @data takes a URI
  212. [19:49:18] <hober> so foo would be resolved to the foo resource at this base
  213. [19:49:30] <hober> and not the element with @id foo
  214. [19:49:33] <kingryan_> so foo = this_url#fooo
  215. [19:49:42] <kingryan_> no, id='foo'
  216. [19:49:49] <kingryan_> but we just leave the # out of the object@data
  217. [19:50:22] <hober> but by leaving that out we're relying on mf processors to have some kind of exception to their normal URI resolution code...
  218. [19:50:54] <kingryan_> hmm, yeah
  219. [19:51:24] <kingryan_> and the browser tries to load http://theryanking.com/temp/foo
  220. [19:51:25] <hober> MFs are supposed to use XHTML. Let's not break XHTML's URI resolution just DRY.
  221. [19:51:32] <hober> err, "just to"
  222. [19:52:01] <kingryan_> yeah
  223. [19:52:47] <dglazkov> why not simply use href?
  224. [19:52:49] <hober> Now, it could be that Safari's handling of @data #foo is a bug, but I bet that it falls within the variation allowed in the spec
  225. [19:52:52] <dglazkov> a href, that is?
  226. [19:53:10] <kingryan_> with an empty anchor?
  227. [19:53:22] <dglazkov> urmpf
  228. [19:53:26] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  229. [19:53:37] <dglazkov> sorry, haven't thought about that
  230. [19:54:22] <dglazkov> how about cite?
  231. [19:54:28] <kingryan_> ?
  232. [19:54:32] <hober> I currently do this in http://edward.oconnor.cx/resume/: <span class="fn n redundant">Edward O'Connor</a>
  233. [19:54:41] <hober> and then I style .redundant as display: none
  234. [19:54:45] <hober> but that's quite suboptimal
  235. [19:55:08] <kingryan_> yeah, that's WET (aka, non-DRY)
  236. [19:55:58] <hober> Sure, it's redundant but, well, it works. I don't see an obvious way to keep DRY and proper semantics in this case.
  237. [19:56:37] <hober> dglazkov: something like this? <q class="fn n" cite="#foo">Ryan King</q>
  238. [19:56:50] <hober> that still has the WET name
  239. [19:57:00] <kingryan_> the name's all we need
  240. [19:57:13] <kingryan_> so, if we're repeating that, we haven't gained anything
  241. [19:57:19] <hober> I agree
  242. [19:57:20] * kingryan (n=kingryan@207.47.11.51) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. [19:57:27] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  244. [19:57:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  245. [19:57:33] <dglazkov> me three
  246. [19:58:18] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  247. [19:58:24] <hober> empty <q class="fn n" cite="#foo"></q> screams hack
  248. [19:58:38] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) has joined #microformats
  249. [19:59:47] <hober> but would work, unlike object
  250. [20:00:24] <hober> assuming the mf parsing guide says "for q with local @cite, use element @cite points at"
  251. [20:00:43] <tantek_> that's an abuse of <q>
  252. [20:00:47] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  253. [20:00:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  254. [20:00:55] <hober> agreed
  255. [20:01:38] <hober> But at the end of the day, XHTML doesn't have idref (thank god), so whatever solution we come up with on this is going to be at least a little abusive, or non-DRY
  256. [20:02:25] <hober> And there is precedent: mf's use of abbr@title is arguably an abuse
  257. [20:02:28] <tantek> the other solution that we had brainstormed (ryan, myself, james levine) was to use an empty <a href="..."></a> with a rel value
  258. [20:02:48] <dglazkov> there is nothing that says you can't do that
  259. [20:03:03] * limbo_ (n=me@c-69-181-197-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  260. [20:03:04] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
  261. [20:03:50] * markp_ (n=markp@bi01p2.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  262. [20:03:59] <hober> So does this rel="indirect" become a more general mf parsing thing? That is, whenever you find the bit you're looking for, and it's an anchor with rel="indirect", use the thing it's pointing at instead?
  263. [20:04:00] <tantek> hober, abbr@title isn't an abuse, go read my blog post
  264. [20:04:18] <tantek> it is a proper use of the title being an expansion of the content, which is an abbreviation
  265. [20:05:02] <hober> I worry about accessibility with abbr@title; it could be interpreted as the thing to read instead of the content of the abbr
  266. [20:06:11] <tantek> hober, that's an faq. see we05 presentation about the 'title' attribute.
  267. [20:07:01] <hober> </aside> :)
  268. [20:07:11] <dglazkov> I like empty anchor better than empty object, but both kind of make sense
  269. [20:07:17] * markp_ (n=markp@bi01p2.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  270. [20:07:31] <dglazkov> you _embed_ hcard, hence the use of object
  271. [20:07:32] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  272. [20:07:46] <hober> I like empty object a hell of a lot, the most of the suggestions so far, except for the (show-stopper) that it doesn't work.
  273. [20:07:48] <dglazkov> or you _refer_ to an hcard, hence the use of anchor
  274. [20:08:19] <dglazkov> but the empty part on anchor smells kind of funny
  275. [20:09:39] <tantek> yes
  276. [20:09:52] <tantek> that's why we preferred <object data="#..." >
  277. [20:10:07] <tantek> perhaps if we set the type to something else it may work
  278. [20:10:24] <tantek> type attribute that is
  279. [20:10:55] <tantek> type="application/x-mfi" or something like that
  280. [20:10:59] <tantek> mfi = microformat include
  281. [20:11:08] <tantek> or feel free to suggest something else
  282. [20:11:43] <tantek> that way browsers' "normal" rendering should simply ignore the object as something they don't process, and simply use the (nonexistent) empty text inside the <object></object>
  283. [20:11:52] <hober> trying a/x-mfi: "Safari cannot find the Internet plug-in"
  284. [20:11:53] <tantek> hober, could you give that a try?
  285. [20:11:59] <hober> dialog box
  286. [20:12:00] <tantek> wow that's lame
  287. [20:12:07] <kingryan> more breakage http://theryanking.com/temp/object-test2.html
  288. [20:12:39] <kingryan> http://theryanking.com/temp/object-test2.html
  289. [20:12:45] <kingryan> text/html seems to solve things
  290. [20:12:49] <tantek> i wonder what happens if you set it to type="text/html"
  291. [20:12:50] <tantek> yeah
  292. [20:12:51] <kingryan> though that's ugly-ish
  293. [20:12:56] <tantek> and style="width:0;height:0"
  294. [20:12:58] <kingryan> see above ^^
  295. [20:13:04] <tantek> and ...border:0
  296. [20:13:06] <kingryan> above has no style
  297. [20:13:46] <kingryan> and seems to work
  298. [20:14:06] <hober> Looks like the width & height to 0 works here too
  299. [20:14:15] <hober> It really irks me that display: none doesn't work
  300. [20:14:18] * kingryan is heading to grab lunch bbiab
  301. [20:14:26] * kingryan (n=kingryan@207.47.11.51) Quit ()
  302. [20:14:34] <dglazkov> how about position:absolute; left: -999px
  303. [20:15:01] <hober> dglazkov: didn't work
  304. [20:16:21] <dglazkov> drats
  305. [20:16:24] <hober> setting width and height to 0 works in IE, Firefox, and Safari
  306. [20:24:08] * limbo_ (n=me@c-69-181-197-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  307. [20:25:15] <tantek> hober, sounds good
  308. [20:25:21] <tantek> BTW, sneak preview of the 1pm session: http://microformats.org/media/broadcast.mov
  309. [20:25:53] <tantek> someone please confirm that they can see/hear the stream?
  310. [20:26:07] <hober> I can see and hear
  311. [20:26:12] <tantek> awesome
  312. [20:26:22] <tantek> ok, that's what we'll have setup for the 1pm session
  313. [20:27:06] * TantekC (n=Tantek@207.47.11.5) has joined #microformats
  314. [20:27:42] <amanuel> see and hear
  315. [20:29:53] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=5029 * Tantek * (+45) Quicktime Broadcaster Notes -
  316. [20:30:02] <amanuel> what's the show about?
  317. [20:30:10] <tantek> right now it's just a test in the room
  318. [20:30:19] <tantek> and it will be going off soon
  319. [20:30:26] <tantek> i need to go grab a bite to eat
  320. [20:30:33] <dglazkov> say hi!
  321. [20:31:21] * dglazkov is scared of technology
  322. [20:31:37] * bear is now known as bear_errands
  323. [20:34:09] <hober> ok; I've updated my resume to use the object technique with width/height 0: http://edward.oconnor.cx/resume/
  324. [20:34:30] <hober> I think this is pretty current to the hresume draft
  325. [20:34:56] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  326. [20:35:28] * hober runs it through x2v for testing
  327. [20:37:36] <davecardwell> looks ok to me
  328. [20:37:39] * _psychic1 (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  329. [20:39:23] <davecardwell> mine is at http://davecardwell.co.uk/cv/
  330. [20:39:32] <davecardwell> we seem to have interpreted the specs in the same way
  331. [20:39:39] <davecardwell> I'll add that object fix - thanks
  332. [20:39:58] * markp (n=markp@bi01p2.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  333. [20:40:08] <tantek> could one of you guys add the object fix(es) to the resume-brainstorming page?
  334. [20:40:15] <hober> I'll do it
  335. [20:40:55] <tantek> thanks hober
  336. [20:42:16] <davecardwell> actually I've never held multiple job titles in the same company, so I haven't had that problem
  337. [20:42:39] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5030 * EdwardOConnor * (+201) Writeup of Brainstorming Session - how to style object
  338. [20:43:11] <hober> the broadcast stopped
  339. [20:44:35] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
  340. [20:46:29] <trovster> Hey davecardwell.
  341. [20:47:03] <davecardwell> hello again
  342. [20:47:08] * limbo_ (n=limbo@hellonline.com) has joined #microformats
  343. [20:47:09] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
  344. [20:47:50] <davecardwell> the broadcast is giving a 502: bad gateway
  345. [20:51:14] * TantekC (n=Tantek@207.47.11.5) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  346. [20:52:03] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  347. [20:52:17] <KevinMarks> i think tantek went offline
  348. [20:52:30] * _psychic1 is now known as _psychic_
  349. [20:55:31] <amanuel> he said he went for food
  350. [20:57:02] <davecardwell> ah
  351. [20:57:54] * tantek_ (n=tantek@207.47.11.51) has joined #microformats
  352. [21:00:38] * tantek (n=tantek@gateway.computerhistory.org) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  353. [21:07:08] * tantek_ (n=tantek@207.47.11.51) Quit ()
  354. [21:09:24] * bear_errands is now known as bear
  355. [21:11:32] * tantek (n=tantek@gateway.computerhistory.org) has joined #microformats
  356. [21:11:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  357. [21:12:03] * kingryan (n=kingryan@207.47.11.5) has joined #microformats
  358. [21:12:03] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  359. [21:12:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  360. [21:12:57] <tantek> could someone try loading http://microformats.org/media/broadcast.mov and confirm?
  361. [21:13:39] <hober> it's working
  362. [21:13:45] <hober> I can see Ryan
  363. [21:13:55] <dglazkov> I can see you
  364. [21:13:55] <kingryan> hi hober
  365. [21:14:20] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  366. [21:14:28] <dglazkov> It's the invasion of the stickers!
  367. [21:15:40] <tantek> awesome
  368. [21:16:29] <hober> I can keep track in IRC :)
  369. [21:16:36] <mfbot> [[cite-rel]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-rel * EranGloben * (+5732) created first draft version of cite-rel spec
  370. [21:16:38] <tantek> awesome
  371. [21:17:02] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation&diff=0&oldid=5031 * EranGloben * (+26) added link to spec
  372. [21:17:07] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  373. [21:17:32] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  374. [21:17:39] <tantek> hober, i'm giving you ops so you can set the /topic
  375. [21:17:44] <hober> OK
  376. [21:17:45] * tantek sets mode +o hober
  377. [21:18:02] <hober> Hopefully the broadcast doesn't break
  378. [21:18:03] <tantek> see if you can keep the /topic set to what we're currently discussion
  379. [21:18:11] <tantek> discussing
  380. [21:18:12] <tantek> let me know if it is not
  381. [21:18:41] <tantek> David Janes provides an overview of hAtom
  382. [21:18:50] * hober changes topic to 'mf f2f @ mashup camp | add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
  383. [21:19:06] <tantek> we're going over the issues
  384. [21:20:20] <tantek> hatom-issues
  385. [21:20:21] <hober> ryan: atom entry documents have one entry, so if no hfeed then only one hentry
  386. [21:20:51] <hober> if there are multiple hentry elements, should there be an implicit hfeed?
  387. [21:21:32] * kingryan_ (n=kingryan@gateway.computerhistory.org) has joined #microformats
  388. [21:22:09] * kingryan_ changed net connections...
  389. [21:22:22] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  390. [21:23:08] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  391. [21:24:30] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  392. [21:26:44] <hober> Sounds like the consensus is to have an implied hfeed when a page has no hfeed but multiple hentry elements
  393. [21:27:07] <tantek> yes
  394. [21:27:24] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  395. [21:27:36] <hober> everyone's OK with hentry naming
  396. [21:27:43] <kingryan_> yeah
  397. [21:27:44] <hober> atom:title -> headline
  398. [21:28:16] <tantek> we're skipping to look at "content" right now
  399. [21:28:28] * rohit__ (n=rohit@207.47.11.51) has joined #microformats
  400. [21:29:22] <rohit__> we're debating choices for renaming "content" since that's commonly used in google's study
  401. [21:29:25] <hober> Sounds like atom:content -> entry-content
  402. [21:29:44] <kingryan_> but if we go with entry-content, can we also do entry-title?
  403. [21:29:45] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  404. [21:32:26] * kingryan (n=kingryan@207.47.11.5) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  405. [21:32:33] <hober> updated & published are quite reusable, and so won't be prefixed
  406. [21:34:09] <davecardwell> feed dead?
  407. [21:34:32] <davecardwell> my sound has gone, at least
  408. [21:34:44] <hober> davecardwell: it's still working for me
  409. [21:34:51] <davecardwell> hrm, I'll reload
  410. [21:35:25] <tantek> yes, my broadcaster claims it is still broadcasting
  411. [21:36:31] <davecardwell> sorted it
  412. [21:37:33] <hober> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-bookmark already exists
  413. [21:38:11] <hober> well, it redirects to rel-design-pattern, which mentiones rel="bookmark" and references html4
  414. [21:38:15] <hober> so I guess that's already taken care of
  415. [21:39:16] <kingryan_> yeah, seems to be taken care of
  416. [21:39:49] <mfbot> [[CiteRelXmdpProfile]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/CiteRelXmdpProfile * EranGloben * (+2396) created first draft version of cite-rel xmdp profile
  417. [21:40:07] <tantek> hmm... that should be cite-rel-profile
  418. [21:40:16] <tantek> someone poke Eran next time he comes online
  419. [21:40:34] <limbo_> hrm?
  420. [21:40:37] <rohit__> I think that it's neat that we have a dt pattern, but...
  421. [21:40:41] <kingryan_> dashes in wiki page names
  422. [21:40:44] <limbo_> what'd i do now?
  423. [21:41:15] <limbo_> is the new WikiWay?
  424. [21:41:17] <kingryan_> http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles, I believe
  425. [21:41:19] <limbo_> *that
  426. [21:41:27] <rohit__> iso 8601, our date pattern, is easy to determine by inspection,
  427. [21:41:28] <limbo_> yeah, i keep forgetting that.
  428. [21:41:35] <rohit__> rather than by decrypting the name of the field
  429. [21:41:44] <tantek> naming-conventions
  430. [21:42:25] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5032 * RyanKing * (+1) Entry Contributor (atom:contributor) -
  431. [21:42:46] <mfbot> [[CiteRelXmdpProfile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=CiteRelXmdpProfile&diff=0&oldid=0 * EranGloben * (+2396) CiteRelXmdpProfile moved to cite-rel-profile
  432. [21:43:32] <mfbot> [[cite-rel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-rel&diff=0&oldid=5033 * EranGloben * (-2) updated link to XMDP profile
  433. [21:43:35] <limbo_> ok. updated.
  434. [21:43:44] <limbo_> any other comments?
  435. [21:43:51] <tantek> thanks limbo!
  436. [21:44:02] <kingryan_> not right now, in a meeting at mashupcamp re:µf
  437. [21:44:09] <limbo_> re what??
  438. [21:44:18] <limbo_> oh microformats
  439. [21:44:29] <limbo_> i got the with a strange capital A in the beginning
  440. [21:44:39] <rohit__> \rk rescinds earlier comment about page-as-implied feed or calendar -- ben sittler informs him that miffy *does* parse it that way
  441. [21:44:52] <tantek> rohit, cool
  442. [21:46:13] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
  443. [21:53:52] <kingryan_> so, atom requires an author element either on the feed or every entry
  444. [21:54:01] <kingryan_> this seems wrong to me
  445. [21:58:39] <limbo_> trackbacks to become an internet standard?
  446. [21:58:41] <dglazkov> why?
  447. [21:58:45] <limbo_> wow.
  448. [21:58:55] <kingryan_> don't we already have pingbacks?
  449. [21:59:05] * markp (n=markp@bi01p2.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  450. [21:59:10] <kingryan_> pingback isn't a standards-body standard, but there is a spec
  451. [21:59:13] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  452. [21:59:15] <kingryan_> written by hixie
  453. [21:59:24] <dglazkov> my internet connection can't keep up with the cast
  454. [21:59:26] <dglazkov> :(
  455. [21:59:51] <davecardwell> mine just lagged
  456. [21:59:52] <davecardwell> fine again now
  457. [22:00:03] <KevinMarks> trackbacks are dreadful
  458. [22:00:53] <KevinMarks> kingryan_: iirc, atom has inheritance, so feed author applies, but entyr authro overrides
  459. [22:00:59] <limbo_> then join the WG and tell them so: http://www.lifewiki.net/trackback
  460. [22:01:09] <kingryan_> KevinMarks, we're discussing that
  461. [22:01:38] <limbo_> from my limited experience as a user, trackbacks seems pretty useful
  462. [22:02:06] <KevinMarks> originally the spec said that for all properties
  463. [22:02:16] <KevinMarks> trackback is too easily spammed
  464. [22:02:22] <KevinMarks> pingback is much better
  465. [22:03:10] <limbo_> seems like they're adding authentication
  466. [22:06:16] <kingryan_> alright, moving on hresume
  467. [22:09:24] <davecardwell> I use references
  468. [22:09:24] <tantek> folks, if you are here at the meeting or participating via irc, add yourself to http://mashupcamp.com/index.cgi?HAtomFinalization
  469. [22:09:31] <tantek> dave, url?
  470. [22:09:37] <davecardwell> http://davecardwell.co.uk/cv/
  471. [22:09:38] <davecardwell> bottom
  472. [22:10:04] <hober> I've marked up mentions of supervisors as rel="reference" in my hresume-ified resume
  473. [22:10:07] <davecardwell> the second needs updating to my current university supervisor
  474. [22:10:24] <davecardwell> I used a hcard and put a rel=reference on their email address
  475. [22:10:27] <hober> but I haven't decided if that's quite what I want to do
  476. [22:11:25] <davecardwell> certificates could be used with skill?
  477. [22:11:34] <hober> davecardwell: or affiliation
  478. [22:11:39] <davecardwell> r.
  479. [22:12:37] <davecardwell> I added some feedback at http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-feedback
  480. [22:12:45] <davecardwell> about education
  481. [22:13:17] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  482. [22:14:01] <davecardwell> a similar heirarchy exists in UK
  483. [22:14:06] <davecardwell> of degrees
  484. [22:14:16] <kingryan_> right, but are they standardized anywhere?
  485. [22:14:23] <kingryan_> is there something we can point to?
  486. [22:14:29] <davecardwell> I don't know off-hand
  487. [22:15:19] <hober> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree
  488. [22:15:23] <hober> looks scary
  489. [22:16:25] <davecardwell> I think a lot of people will want to mark up their qualifications
  490. [22:16:27] <davecardwell> the nature of them
  491. [22:17:15] <davecardwell> I've had quite a few people coming to my cv via a search engine with queries containing "BEng"
  492. [22:17:19] <davecardwell> and I don't even have mine yet
  493. [22:17:53] <davecardwell> lost sound
  494. [22:18:09] <davecardwell> probably the network here
  495. [22:18:30] <kingryan_> we're talking about reasons for hresume
  496. [22:18:33] <kingryan_> producers vs. consumers
  497. [22:18:41] <davecardwell> got it back
  498. [22:19:31] <davecardwell> I imagine a fair few of the early adopters would be web development people
  499. [22:19:35] <hober> davecardwell: thanks for pointing out hcalendar's description in the context of hresume; good idea
  500. [22:19:42] <davecardwell> some way of linking to portfolios might be nice
  501. [22:19:49] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  502. [22:19:51] <davecardwell> hober: no problem
  503. [22:22:02] <davecardwell> all/most of the top resume sites tend to offer a generation service
  504. [22:23:03] * _psychic1 (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  505. [22:23:50] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  506. [22:23:53] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  507. [22:23:57] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  508. [22:24:10] <kingryan_> davecardwell: portfolios would be nice, but it appears to be a minority
  509. [22:24:13] <davecardwell> the major job sites tend to offer a set number of catagories your resume can go in
  510. [22:24:17] <kingryan_> I think we've defered it til later
  511. [22:24:20] <davecardwell> ok
  512. [22:24:22] <davecardwell> makes sense
  513. [22:24:32] <davecardwell> I guess that would be catered to by the skills
  514. [22:24:33] <kingryan_> davecardwell, for categories we can use tags
  515. [22:24:42] <kingryan_> with or without skill classnames
  516. [22:24:53] <davecardwell> like <a href="http://www.perl.org" class="skill url">perl</a>
  517. [22:25:01] <davecardwell> uh, with a rel="tag" in there
  518. [22:25:05] <davecardwell> right
  519. [22:25:11] <kingryan_> not quite, that's not a proper tag
  520. [22:25:45] <pnhChris> so i'd need to have a bunch of links t some tag cloud in my resume doc?
  521. [22:25:57] <kingryan_> essentially, yes
  522. [22:26:06] <kingryan_> wikipedia is a good tag could for this
  523. [22:26:09] <kingryan_> cloud*
  524. [22:26:26] <pnhChris> and wouldn't the pages meaning be severly altered in a parser that knows tags but not hresume?
  525. [22:27:37] * pnhChris has to look at where tags are referenced in the hresume heirarchy
  526. [22:31:02] <pnhChris> hmm.. i don't see any cases of where tags / skills used are linked to individual experiences.. without that strike the 'page meaning' comment...
  527. [22:31:24] * DaveMc500hats (n=chatzill@pie.simplyhired.com) has joined #microformats
  528. [22:31:29] <pnhChris> i'd be concerned though with tags burried a few 'levels' down inside the data
  529. [22:31:33] <kingryan_> in the format, you can put skills anywhere
  530. [22:31:54] <DaveMc500hats> yo, bueller here.
  531. [22:32:26] <hober> If you have <something class="vevent"> ... <a class="skill" ... > ... </a> ... </something>, then there's certainly a sense in which you can say that this skill was used in this vevent
  532. [22:32:33] <hober> That's how I'm marking up my resume
  533. [22:33:18] <davecardwell> yeah
  534. [22:33:51] <pnhChris> yeah.. i just have to sit on it and digest it.. which i haven't in this case... just a bigger picture mf question
  535. [22:34:46] <pnhChris> ... as to a tag needing an href I still don't like it.. but it wouldn't be the first time
  536. [22:35:07] * _psychic1 (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
  537. [22:35:24] <davecardwell> feed down?
  538. [22:35:27] <davecardwell> or is it me again?
  539. [22:35:41] <hober> timed out for me
  540. [22:35:45] <tantek> sorry about that
  541. [22:35:46] <tantek> reload the url
  542. [22:36:00] <hober> it's back
  543. [22:36:23] <DaveMc500hats> ditto, back in now.
  544. [22:36:52] <tantek> hi dave!
  545. [22:37:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  546. [22:37:27] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  547. [22:40:34] <DaveMc500hats> hello :)
  548. [22:43:49] <hober> kingryan_: the type="text/html" isn't the fix; it's the width & height set to 0 that fixes it in Safari
  549. [22:43:58] <hober> AFAICT the type="text/html" has no effect
  550. [22:43:58] <kingryan_> oh, ok
  551. [22:44:09] <kingryan_> it did for me
  552. [22:44:11] <pnhChris> damn.. nocloud.com is registered already
  553. [22:44:22] <kingryan_> http://theryanking.com/temp/object-test2.html
  554. [22:44:47] <DaveMc500hats> tantek is feeling kinda fat
  555. [22:44:50] <DaveMc500hats> :)
  556. [22:45:41] <hober> the key here is, it's an object with a fragment identifier AND class="some-mf-class"
  557. [22:45:50] <hober> without the class="some-mf-class", don't do the special stuff
  558. [22:46:04] <hober> I don't think we need a transclusion class
  559. [22:48:18] <kingryan_> but that reserves that behavior for the future
  560. [22:48:41] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  561. [22:49:33] <tantek> hober, but that can make it more complicated because then you have to check for all the class names
  562. [22:49:37] <tantek> current proposal:
  563. [22:49:42] <tantek> class name of "include"
  564. [22:49:54] <tantek> on objects which you want to use to "include" content from another part of the page
  565. [22:52:31] <hober> sounds good
  566. [22:52:52] <tantek> Dave McClure, do you have any more feedback/issues on hResume?
  567. [22:53:41] <tantek> we are moving onto hReview 0.3
  568. [22:54:25] <DaveMc500hats> sorry, i'm the mouthpiece... james is the real architect here
  569. [22:54:40] <DaveMc500hats> he's in another meeting ; i'll get his comments submitted later
  570. [22:56:26] * DaveMc500hats (n=chatzill@pie.simplyhired.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/undefined]")
  571. [22:58:16] * JamesSimplyHired (n=chatzill@pie.simplyhired.com) has joined #microformats
  572. [22:58:34] <JamesSimplyHired> hey folks
  573. [22:59:30] <kingryan_> hi JamesSimplyHired
  574. [22:59:38] <kingryan_> sorry, but we've moved on to talking about hreview
  575. [23:00:16] <JamesSimplyHired> right....i could hear but having irc difficulties...will listen in still
  576. [23:00:55] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5034 * Tantek * (+251)
  577. [23:02:40] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  578. [23:08:10] <pnhChris> so if you have a review on a page with an hatom.. how does the review parsing logic decide what entry author to pick (or not to)
  579. [23:08:43] <pnhChris> .. if there isn't a page author, but multiple different entry authors
  580. [23:11:56] <kingryan_> for now, you'd have to put the classname 'reviewer' on it
  581. [23:11:57] <tantek> pnhChris, it looks for "reviewer" inside the hReview, then outside, then <address>
  582. [23:13:03] <pnhChris> but on a group blog... with each hatom entry having a different class="author"... will it know enough about hatom (or the directory tree) to grab the correct author?
  583. [23:13:29] <pnhChris> (example... i post a review inside my post on the wasp site)
  584. [23:15:02] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5035 * Tantek * (+126)
  585. [23:15:17] <kingryan_> as of now, probably not
  586. [23:15:18] <pnhChris> is it a case where i must get that author into the review?
  587. [23:16:39] <kingryan_> not sure
  588. [23:16:44] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  589. [23:16:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  590. [23:20:15] * rohit__ (n=rohit@207.47.11.51) Quit ()
  591. [23:23:22] <hober> using rel-license for atom:rights?
  592. [23:23:48] <hober> atom:rights is an atom content thingy, like atom:content.
  593. [23:23:56] <hober> it can contain text, escaped html, or xhtml
  594. [23:24:33] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5036 * Tantek * (+34) issue resolutions accepted.
  595. [23:24:42] <tantek> hober, yeah
  596. [23:24:45] <pnhChris> that would need another author like fallback... only no requirement for it to be there
  597. [23:24:55] <tantek> chris, correct
  598. [23:25:02] <hober> When I was writing my Atom feed by hand, I had an <a rel="license"> ... in my xhtml in atom:rights
  599. [23:25:05] <tantek> if the entry has no license, use the license of the feed
  600. [23:25:12] <tantek> if the feed has no license, use the license of the page
  601. [23:25:25] <tantek> hober, that is good to know
  602. [23:26:24] <tantek> ok, looks like we're done resolving issues with hAtom 0.1, hResume 0.1, hReview 0.3
  603. [23:26:49] <hober> yay
  604. [23:26:50] <pnhChris> cool.. though i think i'm always gonna have a thing about tag
  605. [23:27:46] <pnhChris> and it needing to be tied to a tag space
  606. [23:29:59] <tantek> could those of you who participated in today's meeting on irc please add your name here?
  607. [23:30:02] <tantek> http://mashupcamp.com/index.cgi?HAtomFinalization
  608. [23:30:02] <tantek> thanks!
  609. [23:31:15] <tantek> chris, tags with tag spaces actually reflects what Atom does with the atom:category as well
  610. [23:32:36] <pnhChris> but in both the hatom case and the hresume case the implications of a tag vs. a skill or a keyword don't match what i want to do on the HTML side of the equation
  611. [23:33:14] <pnhChris> in the hatom case i can decide not to futher markup page keywords as "tags" and leave them off the hatom feed
  612. [23:33:30] <pnhChris> but doing that on the resume side has much greater implications
  613. [23:35:46] * limbo__ (n=limbo@hellonline.com) has joined #microformats
  614. [23:36:09] <pnhChris> i also question the implications of tying so much meaning to a particlar space
  615. [23:36:40] <pnhChris> especially with so many spaces doing the same thing or processing the info independant of the specific space
  616. [23:36:50] <pnhChris> specified*
  617. [23:37:22] <pnhChris> but that issue may go more into the atom side then anything mf related
  618. [23:39:32] <KevinMarks> how is it tying meaning to a space?
  619. [23:39:44] <KevinMarks> if you use a generic space
  620. [23:40:15] * kingryan (n=kingryan@gateway.computerhistory.org) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  621. [23:41:01] * tantek_ (n=tantek@207.47.11.51) has joined #microformats
  622. [23:43:01] <pnhChris> well.. i'll have to look at the docs again, but that was the implication i got from previous conversations
  623. [23:43:41] <pnhChris> but still .. if the tag is a generic item why the need to specify a definition/definitive usage
  624. [23:43:59] <tantek_> perhaps because there is no such thing as a generic item
  625. [23:44:50] * boneill (i=boneill@ben.benedictoneill.com) has joined #microformats
  626. [23:45:14] <pnhChris> but theres also no real case of their being a definitive source for defining the item
  627. [23:45:36] <tantek_> everyone can pick their own definitive source, that's the point
  628. [23:45:42] <tantek_> wikipedia is a good fall back
  629. [23:45:53] <tantek_> so is the general conversation around a topic (which is what technorati.com/tags provides)
  630. [23:46:08] <pnhChris> technorati consumes my feed that contains a href="http://delicious/tag/xml" rel="tag">xml</a> whats it going to do with it?
  631. [23:46:34] <pnhChris> ignore the local and assume its its own, no?
  632. [23:46:43] <KevinMarks> collate it with any otehr namespace for now, but remember the one you used too
  633. [23:47:12] <tantek_> is the feed working again?
  634. [23:47:15] <tantek_> (broadcast)
  635. [23:47:28] <pnhChris> and to the usage on hresume... you're forcing me to tie my own resume into someone else's project
  636. [23:47:29] <mfbot> [[irc]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=5037 * Boneill * (+35)
  637. [23:47:35] <hober> tantek: audio only
  638. [23:47:54] <tantek_> hober, you may need to upgrade to QT7
  639. [23:47:58] <tantek_> quicktime.apple.com
  640. [23:48:05] <pnhChris> in the case of a resume. .thats dangerous to me as a potential emplyoee
  641. [23:48:12] <hober> I'm running V 7.0.4
  642. [23:48:17] <tantek_> ah how about now?
  643. [23:48:17] <hober> oooh
  644. [23:48:21] <hober> video just popped in
  645. [23:48:21] * pnhChris shrugs
  646. [23:48:38] <tantek_> yeah, i just toggled the shutter on the iSight and that seemed to do the trick
  647. [23:48:41] <tantek_> weird
  648. [23:48:55] <pnhChris> i guess i'm just looking for an alternate method of specifying keywords or skills other then tag
  649. [23:49:05] <pnhChris> because, i don't like the implications
  650. [23:49:26] <pnhChris> both in html sematics and in other applications
  651. [23:49:27] * tantek_ walking now and will find it hard to type
  652. [23:49:28] <tantek_> ;)
  653. [23:49:37] <KevinMarks> tantek, you switched back to Apple Video again
  654. [23:49:42] <pnhChris> let a consumer use a default namespace
  655. [23:49:46] <KevinMarks> very retro
  656. [23:49:53] <pnhChris> or give me a way to say theres no namesapce
  657. [23:50:15] <pnhChris> ... before i go and register ihatetagclouds.com and have it spit out 204s :P
  658. [23:50:21] <KevinMarks> you cna make your own tagspace
  659. [23:50:39] <pnhChris> its a resume.. that might not be served from a web page
  660. [23:50:59] <pnhChris> often with skills that i might not publish anything related to ever anywhere else on the web
  661. [23:51:12] <tantek_> oh crap
  662. [23:51:16] <pnhChris> so i have no other need for a personal name space
  663. [23:51:19] <pnhChris> ?
  664. [23:51:44] <KevinMarks> those artefacts brought back the early 90s for me
  665. [23:52:05] <tantek_> how's that kevin?
  666. [23:52:15] <tantek_> reload broadcast.mov floks
  667. [23:52:20] <KevinMarks> big
  668. [23:52:29] <tantek_> cool
  669. [23:52:33] * limbo_ (n=limbo@hellonline.com) Quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.")
  670. [23:52:59] <KevinMarks> not sure if the camear is actually grabbing 640x480
  671. [23:53:50] * tantek (n=tantek@gateway.computerhistory.org) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  672. [23:54:27] <pnhChris> but yes.. the rel-tag issue i figure will just be /that thing/ that forever irks me just a bit
  673. [23:55:12] <KevinMarks> Understood.
  674. [23:55:30] <KevinMarks> I think the way it works does have a lot of benefits though
  675. [23:56:16] * pnhChris shrugs
  676. [23:56:17] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  677. [23:57:38] <hober> yes, we can hear you
  678. [23:57:38] <KevinMarks> we cna here you
  679. [23:57:46] <KevinMarks> Who is that?
  680. [23:57:55] <KevinMarks> I spy Gillmor
  681. [23:59:30] <pnhChris> i don't mind it so much inside an entry, because if there are tags theres almost always a space linked to already (usually locally, if not the chosen "favorite" space of the author) .. but in other contexts.. i don't see it.. i don't have a local space for keywords in the intro text of my site (its only the atom spec that forces the designation if i wnt to use them.. nothing on the web side) and my inclination is never to link

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