IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[00:01:38] <tantek> reload again...
[00:01:39] <pnhChris> marking up my resume that i mail to people with 30 wikipedia links just feels like cruft to me
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[00:02:37] <tantek> Yoz and I are going to add microformats to Ning
[00:03:12] <hober> pnhChris: I think it makes a lot of sense to have skills be links to something describing what it is you have skill at
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[00:03:36] <tantek> hypertext or text, that is the question
[00:03:46] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
[00:04:04] <hober> I'm currently marking up the chronologically-earliest mention of $TECH as an hresume skill
[00:04:40] <pnhChris> linking to a singular definition or a tag space?
[00:05:21] <pnhChris> and in some cases i may already be using abbr to add more information
[00:05:33] <pnhChris> it just seems messy
[00:05:42] <pnhChris> and arbitrary
[00:05:58] <hober> It feels very webby to me. I'd much rather have too many things linked up than too few.
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[00:07:00] <davecardwell> there were times when I created a link I'd rather not have had
[00:07:06] <davecardwell> but had to for the sake of adding the skill
[00:07:12] <pnhChris> it doesn't feel like something i want to do on a resume
[00:07:33] <davecardwell> I'd rather not have people who want to read my CV following useless links
[00:07:39] <davecardwell> I guess I could make them appear as not links with CSS
[00:07:50] <davecardwell> but that seems a bit crap
[00:07:52] <pnhChris> i often hesitate to even link projects or past employers because of implications
[00:08:13] <pnhChris> "in 1999 i built a website for company XYZ: see!"
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[00:08:52] <pnhChris> i just don't see value in adding arbitrary links to tell someone looking at my resume what HTML is
[00:09:04] <davecardwell> I agree
[00:09:49] <pnhChris> not to mention being compelled to have to closely monitor that tag space
[00:12:23] <pnhChris> ultimately, if i don't already feel that someone visiting the web page needs that additional information, why would i think someone on the other side of a consuming application need it
[00:13:11] <pnhChris> a link to a wikipedia article isn't going to help monster.com's parser digest and categorize my resume
[00:13:32] <pnhChris> if anything else it might read too much into those links
[00:13:47] <pnhChris> see some association there
[00:14:05] <pnhChris> or a non-mf aware parser reading some association there
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[00:19:48] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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[00:58:02] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=5038 * Tantek * (+230) how to markup multiple reviews on one item on the same page.
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[01:06:17] <KevinMarks> http://technorati.com/faves
[01:06:48] <tantek> hey Kevin, are we live with that?
[01:07:08] <KevinMarks> yes
[01:07:23] <KevinMarks> as of 15 mins ago
[01:09:23] <tantek> hey Kevin, Ning also has ?tag=tagname style tag URLs
[01:10:42] <KevinMarks> bleah
[01:11:53] <KevinMarks> can they not change?
[01:12:34] <KevinMarks> I coudl be Postelian about it in the spider (though ?tag=6747478 cruft I can't)
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[01:13:47] <tantek> check out http://hreviewit.ning.com
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[01:16:19] <tantek> Kevin, I've asked Yoz if they can do /index.php/tags/tagname
[01:16:23] <tantek> and he's looking into it
[01:16:26] <KevinMarks> great!
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[02:17:47] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[02:27:13] <amanuel> hmm
[02:27:36] <amanuel> is it possible to register at microformats.org?
[02:28:25] <amanuel> sigh someone else will have to fix the link then.
[02:28:49] <amanuel> http://microformats.org/wiki/xfolk-profile
[02:28:56] <amanuel> has a link to xoxo profile
[02:29:14] <amanuel> which has now moved to http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
[02:29:36] <amanuel> it is still linking to technorati which may not be the current doc for xoxo.
[02:38:06] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5039 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+946)
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[02:41:09] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[02:44:17] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5040 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+74)
[02:46:08] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5041 * HollyMarieKoltz * (-2) Moroccan Braised Beef -
[02:46:39] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5042 * HollyMarieKoltz * (-7) Next Steps -
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[02:46:55] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5043 * Tantek * (+82) Schema -
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[02:47:26] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5044 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+0) Next Steps -
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[03:54:02] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[03:55:14] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=5045 * Tantek * (+114)
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[04:25:22] <pnhChris> i wasn't able to watch the whole feed today and missed the hatom stuff... anyone catch what was settled on (with content + author issues)
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[05:00:22] <mfbot> [[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=5046 * Dave Cardwell * (+463) General Comments - More feedback - skills.
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[05:15:20] <factoryjoe> tantek: you here?
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[05:51:41] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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[07:56:24] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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[08:26:42] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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[10:55:32] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5047 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+1196)
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[11:39:59] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5048 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+532)
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[11:42:38] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[11:42:50] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5049 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+1) Cranberry Cherry Relish -
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[12:01:06] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=5050 * HollyMarieKoltz * (+1) Next Steps -
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[13:26:31] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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[14:34:50] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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[15:24:38] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[15:24:59] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[17:11:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[17:16:25] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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[17:17:12] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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[17:20:46] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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[17:23:33] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
[17:24:25] <amanuel> microformats.org refused to let me register is registration disabled?
[17:25:15] <dglazkov> was your proposed username a WikiName?
[17:25:17] <tantek> amaneul, see FAQ
[17:25:21] <tantek> question #1
[17:25:29] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
[17:25:38] <amanuel> I think so.
[17:25:45] <amanuel> will read more carefully thanks
[17:28:36] <amanuel> thanks tantek
[17:28:40] <amanuel> I was trying Amanuel
[17:28:49] <amanuel> AmanuelTewolde
[17:29:30] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
[17:35:23] <amanuel> is it XOXO or xoxo
[17:35:51] <dglazkov> depends on whether it's HTML or XHTML ;)
[17:36:54] <tantek> good morning everyone
[17:37:06] <tantek> the technology is XOXO
[17:37:10] <tantek> the class name is "xoxo"
[17:37:43] <tantek> we had some excellent discussions yesterday
[17:38:25] * dglazkov wants a recap
[17:39:23] <amanuel> yeah I left in the middle of it
[17:39:27] <amanuel> not by choice.
[17:40:30] <dglazkov> I left by choice, but not by desire
[17:45:07] <mfbot> [[xfolk-profile]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-profile&diff=0&oldid=5051 * AmanuelTewolde * (-82) update link to the local "xoxo profile" instead of technorati's older copy.
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[17:49:10] <tantek> thanks amanuel
[17:49:30] <amanuel> np tantek glad to help
[17:49:50] <tantek> dglazkov, one of the things we talked about was the object "include" technique that has been proposed (and accepted) for hResume
[17:50:23] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/resume-brainstorming#hCard_reference_via_object
[17:51:02] <tantek> I believe this is useful not only for hResume, but given experience with hReview (i.e. helping Ning add hReview support yesterday), for hReview as well
[17:51:31] <amanuel> talk of xanadu brought back some warm memories
[17:52:43] <amanuel> sad we still think of web as webpages
[17:53:43] <tantek> In addition to object includes for hResume and hReview, for a quite some time, a bunch of us have talked about adding the ability to do includes/imports to XMDP
[17:54:04] <tantek> but for that, the latest thinking was to use <a href="XMDPtoincludeURL" rel="import">
[17:54:44] <tantek> so given that this object include technique makes sense across multiple microforrmats
[17:55:25] <tantek> and we have discussed using <a href rel> for includes for XMDP
[17:55:32] <tantek> this feels like a building block microformat
[17:55:49] <tantek> I'm not sure it stands on its own as a microformat
[17:56:06] <tantek> so perhaps it is something like the abbr-datetime-pattern
[17:56:16] <tantek> include-pattern
[17:57:28] <tantek> and then document *both* the <object class="include" href="#"> method for local content includes for microformats, and the <a href="remoteprofile" rel="include"> method for including XMDP profiles (and portions thereof) into XMDP
[17:57:35] <tantek> OR
[17:58:23] <tantek> the include-pattern could *only* describe <object class="include" href="#"> technique for now, since that is the *one* technique which has demonstrated direct utility across multiple microformats (hResume, hReview, and potentially hListing as well)
[17:58:39] <tantek> and then simply add the <a rel="include"> feature to XMDP directly
[17:58:47] <tantek> what do folks think of that?
[17:58:55] <tantek> and while you're thinking of that...
[17:59:32] <tantek> one more question for the channel to ponder. We've had the fn->nickname shortcut proposed for hCard for some time, and there is a bunch of support
[18:00:03] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Implied_.22FN_and_N.22_Optimization_.28proposal.29
[18:00:13] <tantek> i want to include this in hCard today
[18:00:18] <tantek> any objections
[18:00:19] <tantek> ?
[18:03:18] <hober> tantek: re: XMDP include, I'm all for it, as you can probably gather from my mailing list post the other day
[18:03:49] <hober> I'm wondering about the degenerate case: when an XMDP profile only has includes
[18:04:04] <hober> <dl class="profile"> ... what goes here ... </dl>
[18:04:25] <hober> maybe <dt>include</dt><dd><ul><li><a rel="include".......
[18:06:22] <hober> re: fn->nickname shortcut: sounds good to me
[18:15:08] <mfbot> [[events/xtech-2006]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/xtech-2006 * RyanKing * (+64) creating stub
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[18:23:56] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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[18:24:06] <tantek> hober, yes, I figured ;)
[18:24:46] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
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[18:40:51] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
[18:45:10] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-07-etech-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-07-etech-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5052 * Tantek * (+288) added details to top
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[18:49:27] <hober> Given a) the divergence between the W3C and WHAT-WG on head@profile, and b) the mf preference for visible metadata, I really really like the idea of head@profile="#profile", and then <dl id="profile" class="profile"/> which consists of the includes for the various xmdp profiles being used.
[18:49:28] <hober> It's a nice way of being visible about it while also being conservative WRT future direction of HTML.
[18:49:54] <tantek> hober, don't worry too much about W3C/WHATWG divergence
[18:50:12] <tantek> i'm working on getting the proper feedback to the right folks at W3C
[18:51:29] <hober> word
[18:51:56] <tantek> for now, let's move forward with the assumption that they're not going to break backward compat here
[18:52:11] <tantek> because doing so (breaking backward compat) would be idiotic
[18:56:24] <hober> So far as I can tell, they're all for breaking backwards compatibility (think XHTML 2)
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[19:04:27] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
[19:06:02] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5053 * DimitriGlazkov * (+44) Implied "FN and N" Optimization (proposal) -
[19:08:08] <mfbot> [[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=5054 * Dave Cardwell * (+168) General Comments - Forgot to add something.
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[19:12:45] <dglazkov> tantek, imho include-pattern should definitely contain <object class="include" href="#">
[19:13:37] <dglazkov> what's the diff: rel="import" , rel="include"? Typo?
[19:14:48] <tantek> dglazkov, not a typo, and no difference really, hence I am working on converging
[19:15:04] <tantek> we've talked about rel="import" for a while for XMDP
[19:15:16] <dglazkov> why not rel="xmdp"?
[19:15:21] <tantek> while <object class="include"> is new (class name) as of yesterday
[19:15:33] <tantek> dglazkov, that's not precisely correct
[19:15:44] <tantek> you're not including the xmdp to *use* it in another xmdp
[19:15:52] <tantek> you're including the xmdp to have it count as part of another xmdp
[19:15:59] <tantek> thus it is an "import" or an "include"
[19:16:00] <dglazkov> oh, got it
[19:16:05] <tantek> rather than a rel="profile"
[19:16:15] <tantek> which means to use it as a profile for the current document
[19:16:44] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5055 * Tantek * (+754) added implied "nickname" optimization, cleaned up optimizations
[19:18:21] <dglazkov> I think i'd go with making rel="include" part of XMDP
[19:23:07] <tantek> dglazkov, yes, that is how I am leaning as well
[19:23:14] <hober> I think of rel="include" as an atomic mf, which could/should be used by XMDP (and other things)
[19:23:14] <tantek> programmers already think of "includes" as nouns
[19:23:20] <tantek> a ".h" file is an "include"
[19:23:32] <tantek> thus "include" makes sense as a noun for a rel-value
[19:23:44] <dglazkov> except xmdp is so clean and nice right now
[19:23:45] <tantek> it describes the destination as a noun, in terms of its relationship to the referring document
[19:24:01] <tantek> rel="include" will allow XMDP composition
[19:24:11] <tantek> which will make it easier for authors to refer to a single XMDP profile
[19:24:19] <tantek> which can then compose all the XMDP profiles they are using
[19:24:25] <tantek> kind of like a shared style sheet
[19:24:54] <dglazkov> hober, give example of other things?
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[19:26:04] <hober> dglazkov: cross-document mf composition? (the cross-document equivalent of the <object/> transclusion hack)
[19:26:05] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[19:26:24] <tantek> hober, in practice, the only microformat content includees we have found are more amenable to using <object>, from a semantic point of view
[19:26:48] <tantek> alright, I've updated hCard to included the implied "nickname" optimization for one word "fn"s (as mfbot reported above)
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[19:28:32] <tantek> please take a look and review and let me know if anything is confusing or if there are any ambiguities or errors
[19:28:35] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info
[19:28:48] <tantek> read from that section down through the next four sections
[19:29:20] <tantek> as I've tidied them up a whole bunch
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[19:32:45] <dglazkov> looks shiny. There is a period after whitespace in parens. Maybe no parens at all?
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[19:46:21] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5056 * Tantek * (+271) added contributors, moved implied "nickname" to hCard proper
[19:46:32] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5057 * Tantek * (+3)
[19:47:10] <tantek> dglazkov, where do you see that?
[19:49:59] <dglazkov> is exactly two words (separated by whitespace.),
[19:50:10] * dglazkov is quoting
[19:50:32] <dglazkov> on "Implied "n" Optimization"
[19:55:53] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5058 * KimBayne * (-7) Examples in the wild -
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[20:00:24] <mfbot> [[introduction]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=5059 * Tantek * (+251) added "SIDE" article
[20:01:50] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5060 * Tantek * (+156) New Examples -
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[20:04:41] <mfbot> [[introduction]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=5061 * Tantek * (+110) See Also -
[20:08:48] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5062 * Tantek * (-1) Implied "n" Optimization -
[20:08:52] <tantek> thanks dglazkov
[20:08:54] <tantek> found it
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[20:13:05] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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[20:21:18] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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[20:41:49] <pnhChris> so, did we see a hatom content resolution yesterday?
[20:48:27] <tantek> chris, yes
[20:48:34] <tantek> i believe kingryan is writing up the resolutions
[20:48:46] <tantek> to hAtom-issues
[20:48:50] <tantek> and davidjanes will be updating the hAtom spec
[20:48:54] <tantek> in short:
[20:49:01] <tantek> entry-title, entry-summary, entry-content
[20:49:08] <tantek> all as a set
[20:49:22] <pnhChris> gotcha
[20:49:34] <tantek> since Atom essentially introduces very specific semantics for all three of those, which are not necessarily portable/reusable as "generic" terms in the microformats vocabulary
[20:50:07] <tantek> thus we've swallowed the bitter pill of prefixing them in order to make it easier for folks working with both Atom and hAtom
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[20:56:08] <pnhChris> how bout the author... do you recall if <p class="vcard author"> outside of the hfeed element get picked up
[20:56:30] <tantek> chris, yes, that is part of the resolved issues as well
[20:56:41] * tantek pings kingryan to update hatom-issues.
[20:57:09] <factoryjoe> http://www.scripting.com/2006/02/22.html#whyFormatsLikeRss20Work
[20:59:20] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern * Tantek * (+2719) first draft
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[21:00:19] <tantek> ok, documented object include pattern
[21:01:31] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5063 * RyanKing * (+37) Feed (atom:feed) - note about hfeed not being required
[21:02:28] <tantek> factoryjoe, that rss2 post seems like a long-winded way of saying, in effect no-one may change/evolve/iterate rss and still call it rss, which effectively means rss2 itself is frozen
[21:02:52] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5064 * RyanKing * (+41) Entry Title (atom:title) - note about entry-title
[21:03:32] <factoryjoe> yeah
[21:03:34] <factoryjoe> basicall
[21:03:35] <factoryjoe> y
[21:03:43] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=5065 * Tantek * (+36)
[21:03:45] <factoryjoe> i don't know where the post came from (ie context?)
[21:04:17] <tantek> we believe in evolution, not stagnation
[21:04:27] <tantek> and on that note,
[21:04:29] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern
[21:04:52] <tantek> please take a look folks, especially those of you who have been participating in the hResume, hReview, hAtom discussions in recent days
[21:05:27] <factoryjoe> whoa!! cool!!!
[21:05:31] <tantek> I would like to *normatively* reference this from the next (in progress) versions of hResume, hReview, and hAtom currently being written
[21:05:48] <factoryjoe> tantek: what does normatively mean to humans?
[21:06:19] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=5066 * Tantek * (-30)
[21:06:43] <tantek> factoryjoe, normatively means what's "officially" in the standard as opposed to a tutorial for example
[21:06:58] <tantek> definition vs. explanation
[21:07:03] <factoryjoe> ok, thought so
[21:07:03] <tantek> definitions are normative, and what you code to
[21:07:09] <factoryjoe> got it
[21:07:20] <tantek> explanations and examples are *informative* and are guidelines
[21:07:29] <tantek> if the two contradict, normative beats informative
[21:07:47] * factoryjoe understands
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[21:08:24] <tantek> cool. you can now consider yourself a standards geek.
[21:08:50] <limbo__> is it possible to normativelly reference rss 2.0?
[21:08:52] <factoryjoe> yay!
[21:09:10] <factoryjoe> limbo__: i think that would be abnormatively
[21:09:33] <limbo__> ah
[21:09:36] <limbo__> makes sense
[21:10:57] <factoryjoe> ;)
[21:11:49] <KevinMarks> the rss2 post from Winer comes from the rss advisory board reactivation
[21:12:24] <limbo__> that was a nice story
[21:12:32] <limbo__> made for quite a bit of noise
[21:13:15] <tantek> let's not get too distracted by others' noise folks
[21:13:21] <tantek> let's focus on our own success
[21:14:11] <factoryjoe> indeed
[21:14:19] <factoryjoe> tantek: i might have some help w/ mFs in Flock
[21:14:25] <tantek> yay!
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[21:14:29] <factoryjoe> and dammit, we gotta get you to meet with the engineers
[21:14:37] <factoryjoe> assaf and amanuel might be able to help
[21:15:44] <KevinMarks> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A//feedvalidator.org/testcases/rss20/element-channel-item/multi-enclosure-test.xml
[21:16:18] <kingryan> "Undecipherable Specification Error" ?
[21:16:28] <kingryan> http://feedvalidator.org/docs/warning/UndecipherableSpecificationError.html
[21:16:29] <limbo__> awesome
[21:17:00] <tantek> wow
[21:17:12] <kingryan> this is why we love markp
[21:17:16] <limbo__> i think someone should maybe blog about that
[21:17:37] <KevinMarks> sam did: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2006/02/22/Undecipherable-Specification-Error-Redux
[21:17:41] <markp> i didn't do that!
[21:17:43] <markp> it's sam
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[21:18:01] <limbo__> thanks kevin
[21:18:04] <kingryan> ah, that's why like sam, then
[21:18:04] <markp> he got fed up with the discussion on rss-public and wanted to force the issue
[21:18:14] <factoryjoe> markp: would you be interesting in helping w/ a flock mf topbar?
[21:18:14] <kingryan> it seemed lik somthing you'd do, mark
[21:18:30] <markp> actually, i just tried flock for the first time yesterday
[21:18:41] <limbo__> i doubt it'll work this time. winer is much harder to move than apple.
[21:18:58] <markp> i'm unclear why they forked an entire browser when it seems like they could have accomplished the same thing with a few firefox extensions
[21:19:03] <markp> but i'm sure that's a FAQ somewhere
[21:19:21] <factoryjoe> markp: that's the #1 question
[21:19:25] <factoryjoe> it'll make sense by 1.0
[21:19:27] <markp> and the answer is?
[21:19:29] <markp> ah
[21:19:30] <kingryan> they == factoryjoe
[21:19:42] <factoryjoe> for right now it does seem like we're just firefox + extensions and a pretty theme
[21:19:49] <factoryjoe> but firefox will unlikely ship lucene
[21:19:51] <kingryan> they.include?(factoryjoe) == true
[21:20:01] <factoryjoe> and probably won't include "people in the browser"
[21:20:15] <factoryjoe> nor a blogging client
[21:20:31] <kingryan> tantek, include-pattern looks good
[21:20:48] <tantek> kingryan, good, now onto hReview 0.3 for me
[21:20:54] * dglazkov hasn't downloaded new flock yet
[21:20:55] <markp> lucene the java-based asl2-licensed search engine?
[21:20:56] <tantek> (now that I've written up the pre-requisites)
[21:20:59] <factoryjoe> markp: besides, a little competition doesn't hurt anything
[21:21:13] <factoryjoe> markp: i think we're using cLucene right now
[21:21:24] <factoryjoe> markp: people in the browser mockup: http://flickr.com/photos/25419820@N00/102993817
[21:21:43] <markp> ok, asl2/gpl/lgpl
[21:21:50] <markp> is incompatible with mpl/gpl/lgpl
[21:22:00] <factoryjoe> hrm
[21:22:07] <markp> so no, firefox would never ship it
[21:22:07] <factoryjoe> will have to pass that by bart
[21:22:16] <markp> still don't understand why an extension couldn't ship it
[21:22:21] <markp> but to each his own (browser)
[21:22:26] <factoryjoe> exactly our point
[21:22:27] <factoryjoe> ;)
[21:23:09] <markp> wow, all your friends are creepy white nerds with glasses
[21:23:23] * markp ducks
[21:23:30] * kingryan doesn't have glasses
[21:23:33] <dglazkov> it's a network!
[21:23:43] <dglazkov> CNWGN
[21:23:44] <limbo__> ryan: that can be arranged
[21:24:23] <factoryjoe> CNWGN == technorati staff!
[21:24:46] <limbo__> cnwgn.net is free
[21:25:25] <dglazkov> it's like Brat Pack 2.0, except with more glasses
[21:25:31] <dglazkov> and nerds
[21:25:36] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5067 * RyanKing * (+51) Entry Content (atom:content) -
[21:26:19] <markp> what's the license of flock?
[21:26:19] <KevinMarks> we have a whole page of them
[21:26:29] <markp> can your code be reincorporated into firefox at a later date?
[21:26:35] <kingryan> http://technorati.com/about/staff.html
[21:27:07] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5068 * RyanKing * (+55) Entry Summary (atom:summary) -
[21:27:16] <markp> ah: http://wiki.flock.com/index.php?title=Licensing_FAQ
[21:27:19] <markp> no
[21:27:23] <markp> your code is straight gpl
[21:27:53] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5069 * RyanKing * (+37) Entry Updated (atom:updated) -
[21:28:03] * markp kicks mfbot
[21:28:31] <factoryjoe> so... i would think that you could make an extension w/o the licensing issues?
[21:28:54] <factoryjoe> (i'm not really a big license expert (see my rants against the RIAA, et al))
[21:29:06] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:29:06] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[21:29:44] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5070 * RyanKing * (+87) hi markp
[21:29:54] <markp> grr
[21:30:10] <markp> my point is that your code can never be reincorporated into firefox
[21:30:14] <factoryjoe> too bad you can't ignore mfbot
[21:30:18] <factoryjoe> hmm
[21:30:21] <markp> without relicensing under the marvelous tri-license (cough)
[21:30:27] <factoryjoe> yeah
[21:30:34] <factoryjoe> i guess that goes both ways or something
[21:30:36] <kingryan> at least the code isn't CC
[21:30:47] <factoryjoe> ;)
[21:30:52] <markp> lol
[21:30:58] <factoryjoe> anyway i mean, extensions can live in the middle i think
[21:31:05] <markp> no, in fact, it does not go both ways
[21:31:10] <factoryjoe> oh
[21:31:19] <factoryjoe> ah
[21:31:22] <factoryjoe> hrm
[21:31:28] <markp> firefox code is tri-licensed, and it is up to the receiver to choose which license they want to use it under
[21:31:33] <factoryjoe> i c
[21:31:45] <markp> i have, personally, taken code from firefox and used it in a greasemonkey script under the gpl
[21:32:07] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
[21:32:09] <markp> i didn't worry about it much, since the GM script was not something that would reasonably be considered for re-inclusion into firefox
[21:32:29] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:32:30] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5071 * RyanKing * (+9) proper semantics of 'class name'
[21:32:40] <tantek> markp, try /ignore mfbot
[21:32:44] <markp> in your case, you are doing things that someone might very well want to roll back into the main firefox codebase
[21:32:53] <factoryjoe> hmm
[21:33:06] <markp> but they can't, because of licensing issues
[21:33:14] <factoryjoe> i guess i was under the impression that it *could* go both ways
[21:33:19] <markp> well it can't
[21:33:24] <markp> you can take whatever you want from firefox
[21:33:27] <factoryjoe> i admit that i'm plainly naive about these things
[21:33:48] <markp> but if you decide to take it under only one of the licenses firefox offers, then it can't be reincorporated into the main code base
[21:33:56] <factoryjoe> what about camino? did they take the other path?
[21:34:11] <markp> it's not a gpl-specific thing, the same problem would occur if you licensed your code solely under the mpl, or lgpl
[21:34:21] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
[21:35:30] <markp> camino is also tri-licensed
[21:35:39] <markp> see bottom of http://www.caminobrowser.org/development/programming/
[21:36:18] <markp> anyway, you may or may not care that you're forking firefox with no hope of future reconciliation
[21:36:32] <markp> but you should at least be aware that that's what you're doing
[21:37:01] * limbo_ (i=limbo_@c-69-181-199-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:37:01] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
[21:37:02] * bewest|work (n=bewest@c-69-138-89-146.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
[21:37:34] <factoryjoe> markp: i just asked bart
[21:37:41] <factoryjoe> and he said you're right
[21:37:52] <markp> that's vaguely comforting
[21:37:56] <markp> i suppose
[21:38:01] <factoryjoe> but under certain circumstances, we can choose to license portions of our code under the trilicense
[21:38:04] <factoryjoe> so for example
[21:38:13] <factoryjoe> if you contributed something for parsing microformats for flock
[21:38:20] <factoryjoe> and your condition was that it be trilicensed
[21:38:25] <factoryjoe> that's something that we could discuss
[21:38:51] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5072 * RyanKing * (-178) removing 'reference' and making root class name explicit
[21:38:57] <markp> actually i've already written code for parsing some microformats
[21:39:02] <markp> and it's gpl-only :)
[21:39:15] <markp> but that illustrates my point
[21:39:45] <markp> if you take that code and integrate it into flock (and you are free to do so), that would just make it harder to contribute code "upstream" to firefox
[21:40:03] <markp> since you would need each copyright holder's permission to relicense their bits
[21:40:29] <factoryjoe> right
[21:40:31] <factoryjoe> ok
[21:40:38] <factoryjoe> i'm somewhat familiar with that bit
[21:40:51] <markp> anyway, my hcard parser is here: http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/
[21:41:02] <factoryjoe> have you seen tails?
[21:41:07] <markp> i ported that to python and put it in feedparser.py too
[21:41:15] <markp> but you probably wanted the javascript/dom version
[21:41:20] <markp> tails? no
[21:41:47] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2479P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
[21:41:48] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
[21:41:51] <tantek> markp, could you add your hcard parser to the Implementations section on the hCard spec?
[21:42:07] <tantek> kingryan, thanks for posting notes from yesterday's meeting
[21:42:21] <markp> i could, but so could anyone else
[21:42:49] <factoryjoe> heh
[21:43:18] <factoryjoe> markp: http://blog.codeeg.com/tails-firefox-extension
[21:43:52] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5073 * RyanKing * (+78) Experience - added 'include' class name
[21:44:02] * tantek tried spread around the wiki-editing
[21:44:41] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
[21:46:05] <markp> factoryjoe: doesn't load, i blame the corporate firewall
[21:46:12] <markp> aha
[21:46:15] <markp> oh yeah, i've seen that
[21:46:31] <factoryjoe> yeah
[21:46:33] <markp> kinda useless, no?
[21:46:34] <factoryjoe> it's a good start
[21:46:37] <factoryjoe> yes
[21:46:46] <markp> i suppose that would be the more diplomatic way of describing it
[21:47:14] <factoryjoe> but better integrated.... like, in an "mf vacuum topbar" we could show all the mf items on a page
[21:47:20] <factoryjoe> and suck them up as you browser
[21:47:22] <factoryjoe> browse
[21:47:49] <factoryjoe> then you could right click and do various things... "post to my yahoo calendar", "send email", "bookmark this person's urls"
[21:47:50] <markp> what i'd really like -- and this is something i've been prototyping in greasemonkey -- is a way to suck up all that information and post it to my private atomstore
[21:47:52] <factoryjoe> etc
[21:47:57] <factoryjoe> yes
[21:48:00] <factoryjoe> well
[21:48:06] <factoryjoe> what does your atom store look like?
[21:48:08] <markp> so i can do real searches on it
[21:48:11] <factoryjoe> coz that's what i want to do w/ lucene
[21:48:24] <factoryjoe> lucene should be indexing all the mfs
[21:48:30] <factoryjoe> since we index your feeds and history
[21:48:38] <markp> my atomstore is a cgi script on my own remote server that understands the atom api
[21:48:41] <factoryjoe> then when you do a search after fact, we reveal the data in the pages
[21:48:46] <factoryjoe> ah
[21:48:54] <factoryjoe> well you could run the server locally and publish via flock
[21:48:58] <markp> this way i'm not tied to browsing my history on a single server
[21:49:01] <markp> er, client
[21:49:05] <factoryjoe> ok
[21:49:09] <factoryjoe> indeed
[21:49:18] <markp> the theory is that i would install the same script on my work and home machines
[21:49:32] <markp> and have a unified searchable/browseable history
[21:49:43] <factoryjoe> exactly
[21:49:48] <markp> but it's entirely possible that it's not worth involving a separate server
[21:49:52] <factoryjoe> yeah, that's what i'd like to do w/ flock profile syncing
[21:50:00] <factoryjoe> so you could login w/ any browser
[21:50:02] <markp> yeah, that might be easier
[21:50:08] <factoryjoe> but if you're using flock, you get big UI benefits
[21:50:12] <markp> do everything locally, sync it up once in a while
[21:52:12] * limbo__ (i=limbo_@c-69-181-199-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[21:53:32] <yakk> markp, hey dude
[21:53:37] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
[21:53:50] <markp> hello
[21:54:09] <yakk> markp, we (flock) aren't triple licensing our code - just releasing gpl, basically
[21:54:21] <yakk> markp, so we don't have a licensing problem with clucene
[21:54:25] <KevinMarks> sync globally, act locally?
[21:54:26] <markp> yes, i am aware
[21:54:29] <markp> yes, i agree
[21:54:39] <yakk> markp, it does make it hard to send it upstream though :(
[21:54:39] <factoryjoe> ok, i might have misunderstood
[21:54:46] <factoryjoe> yeah that's what mark was saying
[21:54:46] <markp> yes, that's my only point
[21:55:01] <markp> if you don't care about sending code upstream, then happy trails
[21:55:02] <yakk> ok cool
[21:55:21] <yakk> well, I'd like to send code upstream, but we probably can't send this component upstream
[21:55:36] <markp> i got the impression from factoryjoe that y'all thought it would be easy to send code upstream
[21:55:39] <factoryjoe> we were talking about markp and his work on microformats making it into flock...
[21:55:42] <markp> and i was just pointing out that that was not, in fact, true
[21:55:43] <foolswisdom> there is actually currently a problem that gerv has identified with us offering a single download, but that is not clucene specific
[21:55:49] <factoryjoe> and trilicensing it so that it can go upstream
[21:55:49] <yakk> ok cool
[21:56:12] <yakk> cool
[21:56:33] <yakk> I'd like flock to be a place people can experiment with things that will make there way into the wider mozilla development community
[21:57:09] <markp> (tangent: this is one of the very nuanced reasons to prefer straight-gpl-licensed code, because it guarantees that there are no legal impediments to merging forks)
[21:57:35] <markp> yakk: i'm still not clear why that can't be done in extensions
[21:57:56] <yakk> markp, the scope of extensions is limited
[21:58:05] <foolswisdom> markp or BSD, MIT, etc
[21:58:13] <factoryjoe> we're also concerned about overall ease of use
[21:58:16] <yakk> markp, why wasn't firefox2's places implemented as an extension?
[21:58:18] <yakk> :)
[21:58:32] <factoryjoe> offering 20 separate extensions would be hard to maintain consistency in
[21:58:37] <markp> foolswisdom: no, that is exactly my point, i can fork a bsd-licensed project and go completely proprietary with it, and the forks can never be merged
[21:58:49] <factoryjoe> whereas just doing the whole browser guarentees certain baseline functionality in our product
[21:59:07] <yakk> pure GPL is nice, but both Firefox and Flock have a trademark protection requirement that can't be satisfied :(
[21:59:14] <markp> forks of straight-gpl programs must themselves be straight-gpl, thus ensuring license compatibility
[21:59:21] <yakk> thats why Firefox ships under essentially a proprietary license
[21:59:31] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
[21:59:36] <markp> i know it's not really relevant to the firefox discussion, that's why i marked it "tangent"
[21:59:41] * yakk wonders what the implications of gpled firefox extensions is, given the firefox eula
[21:59:48] <markp> yes, debian-legal goes apeshit every now and then about the firefox license
[21:59:49] <foolswisdom> markp: now, I see what point you were making ;-)
[21:59:57] <factoryjoe> so speaking of
[22:00:09] <yakk> markp, and its one of the more legitimate debian-legal freak-outs
[22:00:15] <factoryjoe> markp, we've been discussing OPML and FOAF @ flock lately
[22:00:20] <markp> oh god
[22:00:23] <factoryjoe> i've been pushing the microformats angle
[22:00:31] <factoryjoe> i was wondering if you and yakk might have some thoughts to share
[22:00:39] <factoryjoe> on why one might be better than the other?
[22:00:45] <markp> you are primarily a consumer of content
[22:00:54] <markp> if there is content in the world that is only available in opml, then you should support opml
[22:00:56] <markp> ditto foaf
[22:01:00] <markp> BUT
[22:01:05] <yakk> we want to do both
[22:01:20] <markp> when you are acting as a producer of content (e.g. exporting information), PLEASE DON'T SUPPORT OPML
[22:01:27] <yakk> oh, I hate opml
[22:01:30] <markp> for the love of god
[22:01:39] <markp> the last thing the world needs is more OPML
[22:01:43] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
[22:01:44] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[22:01:48] * limbo_ cheers
[22:02:08] <yakk> one of our developers got excited about OPML recently and I've been trying to calm him down.
[22:02:15] <markp> oh, there's always one
[22:02:31] <markp> a new one every month, but there's always one
[22:02:34] <limbo_> show him xoxo
[22:02:34] <markp> cults are like that
[22:02:45] <limbo_> hopefully he'll see the light.
[22:02:48] <yakk> we're trying to work out what kinds of formats to support for social network / profile / etc data, and there doesn't seem to be a microformat thats appropriate, while FOAF seems to be widely supported, mature and extensible
[22:02:58] <markp> haha
[22:03:03] <markp> sorry, that's very funny
[22:03:09] <markp> FOAF is many things, but it is not stable
[22:03:09] <yakk> xoxo and opml both fail to solve the same problem
[22:03:27] <yakk> markp, in what ways is it unstable?
[22:03:39] <markp> dan periodically spiders all the FOAF files in the world and looks for elements that people just made up
[22:04:00] <markp> sorts them by prevelance and adds the most popular elements to the spec
[22:04:00] <yakk> well, its RDF, so people are allowed to do that, right?
[22:04:04] <yakk> oh
[22:04:05] <markp> sure!
[22:04:05] <yakk> hmm
[22:04:08] <markp> what could possibly go wrong?
[22:04:10] <yakk> thats kinda scary
[22:04:14] <markp> "missing isn't broken", etc.
[22:04:17] <markp> feh
[22:04:21] <limbo_> i've not seen much support for consuming FOAF
[22:04:33] <limbo_> most YASNs that support FOAF only do that for publishing
[22:04:36] <yakk> there are large social networks that publish FOAF though
[22:04:37] <limbo_> very few will import it
[22:04:39] <markp> whenever someone mentions the word "semantics", i reach for my gun
[22:05:02] <limbo_> so it's the same as OPML - consume FOAF, produce XFN.
[22:05:03] <yakk> we're interested in consuming on the client
[22:05:14] <KevinMarks> yakk: can you clarify that aside on xoxo?
[22:05:18] <tantek> and publishing presumably with blogs
[22:05:27] <yakk> limbo_, except XFN represents 10% of the information in FOAF
[22:05:37] <tantek> yakk, that's a *feature*
[22:05:41] <yakk> KevinMarks, its a blogroll format which isn't the problem we're trying to solve
[22:05:41] <markp> lol
[22:05:42] <tantek> you know when you're *done* implementing XFN
[22:05:54] <tantek> whereas you are *never* done implementing FOAF/RDF
[22:05:58] <markp> oh, just make up your own xml format and be done with it
[22:06:00] * markp ducks
[22:06:03] <KevinMarks> step 1: admit you have a problem
[22:06:08] * tantek refers markp to Tim Bray
[22:06:11] <KevinMarks> step 2: state it
[22:06:27] <yakk> tantek, okay, but what if I want to represent a bunch of information about a person, not just their blogroll or just their vcard?
[22:06:31] <KevinMarks> XOXO isn't just a blogroll format
[22:06:31] <markp> tantek: you mean http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/02/07/Thumbnail ?
[22:06:33] <tantek> yakk, the bits in FOAF about a person are a needlessly reinvented mutation of vcard
[22:07:01] <tantek> yakk, there are 100000000x more vcards/producers/consumers out there than FOAF
[22:07:05] <markp> yeah, why not export .vcf files?
[22:07:11] <KevinMarks> I use XOXO as a generic serialization format
[22:07:13] <tantek> and thus hCard is based on vCard
[22:07:15] <limbo_> i believe that XFN + hCard would give you everything you'd wanna use FOAF for (that makes sense)
[22:07:32] <markp> oh wait, i forgot what channel i'm in
[22:07:33] <yakk> tantek, but vcard is old old old.
[22:07:35] <tantek> and thus with hCard, you actually get a lot more intereoperabtiliy *today* with apps/services etc. than FAOF
[22:07:50] <tantek> yakk, but it *works* and is *supported* by a HUGE eco-system
[22:07:50] <markp> yakk: yes, that's the real problem, standards rot over time... </snark>
[22:08:06] <tantek> yakk, old = stable
[22:08:15] <tantek> or did you have a specific bug report?
[22:08:20] <KevinMarks> TCP is pretty old too
[22:08:22] <yakk> tantek, well, the bigger problem is that it doesn't represent all the kind of personal information that I want to represent. Instant messenger ids springs to mind.
[22:08:32] <tantek> yakk, see hcard-example page
[22:08:36] <tantek> that's a solved problem
[22:08:40] <tantek> hcard-examples
[22:08:47] <factoryjoe> yakk: i would start looking for examples that aren't supported
[22:08:52] <factoryjoe> and then we can address them
[22:09:01] <factoryjoe> i think you'd actually be hard pressed to find things that don't fit
[22:09:12] <factoryjoe> and if they don't, maybe they're aren't generally useful
[22:09:23] <factoryjoe> in which case shipping them in a browser is questionable
[22:09:23] <yakk> tantek, that suggests: <a class="email" href="mailto:joebob@hotmail.com">joebob</a> to represent an msn address
[22:09:31] <yakk> tantek, how on earth am I supposed to consume that?
[22:09:53] <kingryan> "old old old" = 8 years?
[22:09:59] <tantek> you know the semantic that a "hotmail.com" domain address works as an MSN IM
[22:10:05] <tantek> done
[22:10:07] <yakk> tantek, but my msn id is ian@mckellar.org
[22:10:10] <limbo_> ryan, in internet terms that's ancient.
[22:10:15] <yakk> tantek, its also my email address
[22:10:15] <kingryan> my msn id is ryansking@mac.com
[22:10:31] <factoryjoe> heh
[22:10:38] <markp> doh!
[22:10:39] <kingryan> "ancient" = "it now works, so lets disregard it"
[22:10:55] <tantek> kingryan: "ancient" = not-fashionable and glitzy enough
[22:11:05] <limbo_> no, ancient means might need some work to comply with changes in the environment
[22:11:14] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
[22:11:21] <KevinMarks> I like Linda Stone's formulation: "obsolete enough to be useful"
[22:11:23] <tantek> "ancient" = we should just go reinvent it with new terminology
[22:11:27] <limbo_> there's no mechanism for extending vcard?
[22:11:33] <tantek> URL
[22:11:49] <limbo_> they never thought that someday someone might want to add fields to it?
[22:11:53] <yakk> vcard doesn't seem to have an extension mechanism and represents a model of profile information that is outdated
[22:12:01] <KevinMarks> the mechanism is called the IETF
[22:12:12] <tantek> yakk, it's not outdated, it's interoperably exchanged by people all the time
[22:12:13] <yakk> I'd love for someone to point me to something that disagrees with that
[22:12:16] <tantek> via email clients
[22:12:17] <factoryjoe> tantek: have you written up your point about the separation between xfn and hcard that's so essential against FOAF?
[22:12:18] <tantek> cell phones
[22:12:19] <tantek> etc.
[22:12:35] <tantek> factoryjoe, fundamentals of modularity
[22:12:41] <factoryjoe> k
[22:12:42] <yakk> tantek, and its a real pain (at least it has been for me) to map the vcard data model to more modern applications
[22:12:52] <tantek> yakk, then post your pain points
[22:13:01] <kingryan> specifics, please
[22:13:01] <tantek> I'm convinced we can resolve nearly all of them
[22:13:15] <factoryjoe> yeah, that's really what we need to do
[22:13:17] <yakk> tantek, lets talk quickly about instant messenger
[22:13:27] <tantek> the real problem with MSN IM is that they failed to make up their own URL scheme, the way that AIM and YIM did
[22:13:29] <factoryjoe> b/c inventing a new standard is an exercise in futility at this point
[22:13:48] <yakk> tantek, the real problem with AIM & YIM is that they made up their own URL schemes :)
[22:13:59] <KevinMarks> you will experience thta pain when you try to import or export it anyway
[22:14:09] <tantek> yakk, are you praising Microsoft for not doing so?
[22:14:18] <tantek> ;)
[22:14:22] <KevinMarks> thats more legit than most - they are separate protocols
[22:14:32] <KevinMarks> unlike, say, feed://
[22:14:34] <tantek> there is also skype: for example
[22:14:35] <tantek> right
[22:14:35] <yakk> tantek, url schemes have in recent years been invented as a tool to launch helper apps.
[22:14:56] <yakk> tantek, not to represent different kinds of ways of accessing resources
[22:15:06] <KevinMarks> yes, because of the MIME-type/ extension fuckup
[22:15:21] <yakk> feed: makes me angry angry angry all the time
[22:15:26] <tantek> but IM networks *are* different kinds of ways of accessing resources
[22:15:31] <yakk> it makes me want to add html: and jpeg: support to flock
[22:15:47] <tantek> yakk, not as bad as the .tel TLD
[22:15:57] <tantek> for publishing "contact information"
[22:16:03] <tantek> you know about that right?
[22:16:17] <KevinMarks> well, feed is arguably a differnt protocol, as it implies 'poll this at intervals'
[22:16:22] <yakk> tantek, true :)
[22:16:53] <tantek> actually, now that I think about it should the semantic of an IM address be captured with rel?
[22:17:01] <yakk> tantek, well, we could talk about how microsoft could have invented an url scheme, but that doesn't help us represent peoples' msn contact information in hcard
[22:17:48] <yakk> my concern is that because hcard aims to just be a reflection of vcard into the microformats world its limited in the same ways vcard is
[22:17:52] <factoryjoe> tantek: i had sort of proposed that before
[22:18:03] <factoryjoe> rel=im
[22:18:05] <tantek> really? sorry if i missed that factoryjoe
[22:18:12] <tantek> factoryjoe solves the problem
[22:18:16] <factoryjoe> yeah actually i think i mocked that up
[22:18:18] <tantek> though because the networks are different
[22:18:19] <factoryjoe> awhile back
[22:18:25] <tantek> we may need different values for each
[22:18:31] <factoryjoe> same for photos, thought that's not quite as necessary
[22:18:35] <tantek> <a class="email" rel="msnim" href="mailto:joebob@hotmail.com">joebob</a>
[22:18:44] <factoryjoe> yeah, that's decent
[22:18:52] <factoryjoe> and if you use the same nic, just use multiple rels
[22:18:57] <factoryjoe> rel="msnim aolim"
[22:19:04] <tantek> and that could be a microformat both independent of hCard, and usable inside hCard
[22:19:04] <yakk> see, if we just use FOAF we can spider to find these nececary extensions instead of just arguing :)
[22:19:06] <KevinMarks> though no doubt it will be renamed 'liveim' shortly
[22:20:01] <factoryjoe> ;)
[22:20:11] <factoryjoe> yakk: did you see the google study?
[22:20:14] <KevinMarks> well, while we're arguing, what's the problem XOXO isn't solving?
[22:20:15] <factoryjoe> they kind of did that
[22:20:28] <yakk> factoryjoe, no, but I blame wordpress
[22:21:00] <yakk> KevinMarks, I want to represent profile and social network information. xoxo only solves part of that.
[22:21:11] <tantek> yakk, xoxo is just for lists
[22:21:14] <KevinMarks> XOXO has 2 uses
[22:21:14] <tantek> and outlines
[22:21:17] <yakk> Its not clear to me (I guess I should go read more) how to tie a variety of information together
[22:21:18] <KevinMarks> lists of otehr things
[22:21:35] <factoryjoe> lists != outlines?
[22:21:38] <KevinMarks> and serialization
[22:21:42] <tantek> yakk, you don't one big massive monolithic format that is never finished and completely unimplementable
[22:21:46] <KevinMarks> lists are degenreate outlines
[22:21:55] <tantek> you want a bunch of small modular, well defined microformats which can be implemented as needed
[22:22:07] <yakk> how do I tie a xoxo describing the sites I post to to an hCard that describes my contact info an XFN information about my friends?
[22:22:26] <KevinMarks> XOXO supports arbitrary key:value pairs, but only makes sense where you want botht he keys and values human readable
[22:22:29] <tantek> yakk, take a look at the markup of my blogroll: http://tantek.com/log/
[22:22:39] <tantek> it uses XOXO+hCard+XFN
[22:22:57] <tantek> to describe my relationships to various people I know and their URLs
[22:23:47] <yakk> tantek, how do I know this is your blogroll?
[22:24:30] <yakk> tantek, that's the main source of my confusion
[22:24:49] <tantek> for XFN parsing, you can treat any links with the XFN rel values on the page accordingly
[22:24:52] <tantek> that's the point
[22:24:57] <tantek> you don't need to know that this is my blogroll
[22:25:34] <yakk> tantek, if I'm visiting your page and I want extract information about you and about your social network I can't?
[22:26:00] <hober> yakk: address+hcard says it's tantek's page. so an xoxo+hcard+xfn on that page is his blogroll.
[22:26:16] <yakk> hober, ahh, cool, ok
[22:26:18] <KevinMarks> well xfn is the social network
[22:26:25] <KevinMarks> it might be a met list in a post
[22:26:36] <yakk> hober, where is that specified?
[22:26:48] <tantek> yakk, see http://gmpg.org/xfn/
[22:26:57] <tantek> and linked pages
[22:27:01] <tantek> it describes use of XFN on pages
[22:27:15] <tantek> and how XFN within blog posts indicates a time-stamp on a relationship etc.
[22:27:50] <yakk> tantek, (if you have atom I guess)
[22:27:57] <yakk> s/atom/hatom/
[22:28:04] <KevinMarks> or atom
[22:28:08] <KevinMarks> html inside atom
[22:28:20] <factoryjoe> yakk: the whole ideal of using xfn rel values is that those links are relative to the current page
[22:28:32] <factoryjoe> so if we have <Address><hcard /></address>
[22:28:36] <factoryjoe> we know who's page it is
[22:28:38] <hober> yakk: address is defined by html to be the author of the page
[22:28:46] <tantek> right
[22:28:52] <factoryjoe> any xfn links from the page will be presumed to be related to the author's social network
[22:28:58] <tantek> correct
[22:29:05] <factoryjoe> so if i'm on your blog
[22:29:12] <tantek> if they are scoped inside blog posts, then they are temporal in nature
[22:29:13] <factoryjoe> and you link to someone w/ and xfn rel value
[22:29:29] <factoryjoe> i can determine what teh relationship is between you and the linked page
[22:29:49] <mfbot> [[include-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern&diff=0&oldid=5074 * Tantek * (+409) added how a parser sees the resultant included subtree
[22:30:11] <factoryjoe> take a look at the source of this blog post: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/02/21/rati-gets-favorites/
[22:30:18] <factoryjoe> take a look at the link to derek
[22:30:23] <factoryjoe> (in the source)
[22:30:30] <tantek> see here for more on hCard+XFN:
[22:30:31] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#hCard_and_XFN
[22:30:42] <factoryjoe> it's that simple
[22:30:50] <factoryjoe> we don't need blogrolls if you link to your friends w/ xfn
[22:30:58] <yakk> how widespread is XFN use? I took a look at myspace and livejournal and at a glance neither seem to use it
[22:30:59] <tantek> yeah, a heck of a lot simpler than parsing a bunch of XML/RDF
[22:31:02] <factoryjoe> whereas FOAF, as i understand it, is all in one file
[22:31:10] <factoryjoe> and you have to check that file for updates
[22:31:14] <tantek> yakk, XFN is used all over the place on numerous sites
[22:31:17] <factoryjoe> and if it's fragmented, then what?
[22:31:17] <yakk> tantek, well, I have plenty of XML/RDF tools, but few to deal with microformats
[22:31:22] <tantek> it's distributed
[22:31:23] <factoryjoe> with xfn, no matter where i'm publishing
[22:31:29] <factoryjoe> i can link to my friends explicitly
[22:31:48] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
[22:31:51] <tantek> s/parsing/publishing
[22:31:58] <yakk> xfn & hcard don't seem to me to be what we're after
[22:32:09] <tantek> but they reflect what people publish
[22:32:19] <tantek> you should be after what people visibly publish
[22:32:46] <tantek> see also: http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq
[22:32:52] <hober> yakk: I wrote a patch for livejournal a while ago to allow for <lj user="foo" rel="xfn-values-here" />
[22:32:56] <hober> but I don't think it was applied.
[22:33:10] <factoryjoe> yakk: can you be more specific about exactly what we need?
[22:33:13] <yakk> hober, they generate foaf
[22:33:15] <tantek> and also, regarding how do you link to all the places you publish/profiles, see this: http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation
[22:33:16] <factoryjoe> i'm having a hard time seeing it...
[22:33:27] <hober> yakk: I know
[22:33:33] <tantek> yakk, i'm working with livejournal folks to publish hCard
[22:33:53] <hober> yakk: my patch was intended to let lj users refer to other lj users with xfn
[22:33:54] <tantek> right there on their *visible* profile pages
[22:34:21] <factoryjoe> same thing for upcoming and flickr
[22:35:17] <tantek> yakk, re: tools, see aforementioned hCard parser by markp
[22:35:39] <tantek> parsing microformats is so easy that a bunch of folks have already written a bunch of open source tools
[22:35:50] <yakk> we want to be able to allow users to publish a profile that encapsulates profile information, links to all the sites the person publishes and social network information
[22:36:14] <tantek> for "inks to all the sites the person publishes" see http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation
[22:36:23] <yakk> tantek, yeah - that looks good
[22:36:32] <tantek> the solution is so simple, just use rel="me"
[22:36:39] <yakk> tantek, I'd really like a way to say "my profile is over on this page"
[22:36:46] <yakk> tantek, so I can link back
[22:36:47] <tantek> much better than a format trying to devlop a taxonomy for all the different kinds of URLs
[22:37:10] <tantek> right, just put rel="me" on that link
[22:37:13] <tantek> to your profile
[22:37:28] <yakk> tantek, well, I'm not convinced that not developing a taxonomy is a good thing
[22:37:49] <yakk> tantek, I might want to say "here are my photos" and "here is a blog"
[22:38:22] <hober> yakk: I follow the rel="me" link and find an hatom page. :)
[22:38:29] <hober> or an hresume, etc.
[22:38:33] <tantek> yakk, it's a futile exercise
[22:38:37] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2479P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("sleep")
[22:38:37] <hober> let the site-linked-to tell us what it is
[22:38:43] <tantek> because new types will always come out
[22:38:45] <tantek> here is my videoblog
[22:38:47] <tantek> here is my calendar
[22:38:47] <yakk> hober, but if both wordpress and flickr publish hatom....
[22:38:47] <tantek> etc.
[22:38:56] <tantek> useless to put it in an explicit taxonomy in a format
[22:39:00] <yakk> tantek, true, but thats not reason to not try
[22:39:00] <tantek> much better to just use tags
[22:39:00] <hober> yakk: that sounds like a good thing to me! :)
[22:39:04] <tantek> and for that, you can use xFolk
[22:39:07] <tantek> yakk, actually it is
[22:39:13] <yakk> tantek, xfn tries to have a taxonomy of all kinds of relationships
[22:39:18] <tantek> no, just 80%
[22:39:21] <tantek> 80/20
[22:39:26] <yakk> tantek, hcard tries to have a taxonomy of all kinds of phone number
[22:39:36] <tantek> hcard gets that from vcard
[22:39:53] <tantek> if we were to do it from scratch today, we would just use tags
[22:40:07] <yakk> ahh tags...
[22:40:09] <tantek> the utility is that tools/apps/services support that taxonomy from vcard
[22:40:23] <tantek> whereas no such thing exists for new formats invented today
[22:40:44] <yakk> tantek, what about xfn's taxonomy of relationships?
[22:40:49] <tantek> tags/folksonomy solves the taxonomy problem for such things so you (the format designer) don't have to
[22:41:08] <tantek> xfn's taxonomy of relationships reflects the 80/20 of what people already publish on the web
[22:41:14] <tantek> it reflects current behavior
[22:41:23] <KevinMarks> xfn's invisibility is a downside
[22:41:26] <factoryjoe> xfolk + rel=me is an interesting concept
[22:41:33] <factoryjoe> i like that
[22:41:33] <tantek> *and* is extensible since folks can create their own XMDP
[22:41:36] <tantek> right factory joe
[22:41:40] <KevinMarks> self-tagging
[22:41:43] * yakk reads up on xfolk
[22:42:01] <KevinMarks> xflok is hreview wihtout an opinion ;)
[22:42:24] <tantek> yakk, in short, xfolk is a distributed way to publish the equivalent information as del.icio.us
[22:42:30] <KevinMarks> xfolk, not xFlock
[22:42:52] <tantek> KevinMarks, actually, xfolk, has a "description" field
[22:43:31] <yakk> tantek, ahh
[22:43:48] <tantek> because there is no need to keep it all on a centralized service
[22:43:53] <yakk> tantek, what does xfolk provide that say, HTML's A does not?
[22:43:55] <tantek> you should be able to publish your tagged links *anywhere*
[22:43:59] <factoryjoe> xfolk is semantic markup for delicious posts
[22:44:13] <factoryjoe> xfolk is link + tags + description
[22:44:15] <tantek> yakk, that's exactly the right kind of question to ask
[22:44:21] <tantek> we always ask that for microformats
[22:44:30] <yakk> is it just tags?
[22:44:31] <tantek> if you can do it with just HTML, then don't invent a new microformat
[22:44:40] <tantek> tags+comment(description)
[22:44:46] <tantek> and yeah, that's it
[22:44:47] <yakk> doesn't A support description?
[22:44:52] <tantek> no
[22:45:07] <tantek> not in the way people publish delicious links now
[22:45:13] <factoryjoe> right
[22:45:21] <tantek> people publish the link, the tags, and the description all inline, and all visible
[22:45:22] <factoryjoe> xfolk was specifically designed with delicious in mind
[22:45:40] <yakk> tantek, ahh - title & name but no description
[22:45:53] <tantek> and name is deprecated
[22:46:06] <yakk> factoryjoe, but does delicious use it?
[22:46:07] <tantek> and no tags either
[22:46:34] <tantek> yakk, the point of xfolk is to enable bloggers etc. to publish their own aggregatable delicious on their own sites
[22:46:42] <tantek> it doesn't matter if delicious supports it or not
[22:47:14] <yakk> there just seem to be a lot of microformats with no common producers or consumers
[22:47:24] <tantek> yakk, not true at all
[22:47:27] <tantek> for each spec
[22:47:36] <tantek> see the "Examples in the Wild" section for producers
[22:47:38] <tantek> publishers
[22:47:39] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
[22:47:40] * pnhChris checks magnolia to see what they're using
[22:47:48] <factoryjoe> actually
[22:47:51] <factoryjoe> i talked to them already
[22:47:56] <tantek> and "Implementations" section for producers (tools) and consumers etc.
[22:48:16] <tantek> tons of microformat producers and consumers
[22:48:30] <tantek> so many new ones it is hard to keep up with documenting them
[22:48:43] <yakk> ok
[22:48:55] <pnhChris> is it just rating + screencap that's new there now
[22:49:01] <tantek> i'm not kidding. i find that to be an actual personal challenge.
[22:49:04] <pnhChris> that isn't accounted for in xfolk
[22:49:14] <yakk> I don't see that many for for example xfolk (it looks like just one firefox extension consumes it)
[22:49:23] <factoryjoe> ii need to follow up
[22:49:29] <factoryjoe> but they're down w/ xfolk and hcard
[22:49:32] <tantek> yakk, that's a good question to ask on microformats-discuss
[22:49:36] <yakk> its a wiki! shouldn't people implementing be adding them? :)
[22:49:44] <tantek> ahem. yes.
[22:49:48] * tantek glares at markp
[22:50:40] <KevinMarks> yakk: as hReview is a superset of xFolk, a lot of implementors went with that instead
[22:51:29] <tantek> yakk, ping the mailing list about xFolk, and the author, Bud Gibson is sure to pipe up and provide more info
[22:51:32] <yakk> I'll take a look at hReview
[22:51:43] <yakk> I should join the mailing list
[22:51:51] <KevinMarks> one of us, one of us
[22:52:18] <KevinMarks> the mailing list is worht it for markp's rants alone
[22:52:37] <yakk> I miss markp's rants
[22:52:50] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001175.html
[22:53:31] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5075 * Tantek * (+106) hReview 0.3 thoughts -
[22:54:44] <yakk> hmm
[22:54:57] <yakk> the 80/20 attitude concerns me
[22:55:49] <yakk> I want my users to have things work all the time
[22:56:03] <yakk> without them caring what technology they're using
[22:56:44] <kingryan> yakk, I want perfect tools, too
[22:56:55] <KevinMarks> 80/20 doesn't mean 'fails one time in 5'
[22:57:08] <KevinMarks> it means 'solves the core problem'
[22:57:13] <kingryan> but I don't want them to be 'in beta' forever
[22:57:52] <tantek> 80/20 is the analysis done on use cases
[22:57:55] <KevinMarks> when my friend Maf was working on MS Word Mac, he told me that everyone he met told him:
[22:58:03] <KevinMarks> a) Word is too bloated
[22:58:17] <KevinMarks> b) Cna you just add these 3 features for me?
[22:58:19] <tantek> it's how you prune your feature set to something that a) you can ship, and b) your audience actually cares about (as opposed to esoterica)
[22:58:50] <yakk> kingryan, its hard dude
[22:58:53] <yakk> is this valid hcard:
[22:58:54] <tantek> it's a well established design methodology for practical design
[22:58:56] <yakk> <li class="vcard">
[22:58:56] <yakk> <a href="http://ian.mckellar.org/" class="photo"><img src="/images/avatar_ian_128.jpg" alt="Ian McKellar" /></a>
[22:58:56] <yakk> <span><a href="http://ian.mckellar.org/" class="url fn">Ian McKellar</a></span>
[22:58:56] <yakk> </li>
[22:59:16] <tantek> yakk, nicely done
[22:59:35] <tantek> more ideally, you want to put the class="photo" on the <img>
[22:59:36] <yakk> shouldn't photo be on the <img> tag, or shouldn't the <a> point to an image?
[22:59:41] <yakk> this is on flock.com/about/
[22:59:51] <tantek> yakk, you are correct
[23:00:06] <hober> why have that extraneous span in there?
[23:00:16] <yakk> so factoryjoe screwed up, but without the right tools there's no way for him to know till some tools work and some don't
[23:00:26] <yakk> I said tools to many times
[23:00:26] <tantek> yakk, try using tails, it will show that stuff for you
[23:00:50] <tantek> that plus X2V works quite well for checking your content
[23:01:17] <tantek> take the url with the hCards, and put it after this: http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/
[23:02:27] <yakk> tantek, that silently dropped the invalid image elements
[23:02:28] <mfbot> [[hreview-v0.2]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-v0.2 * Tantek * (+34604) archived hReview 0.2 for reference purposes.
[23:03:36] <yakk> I'm going to go and prototype a profile page.
[23:03:55] <yakk> oh
[23:04:04] <yakk> is there a way in XFN to say there is a relationship but not specify what it is
[23:04:59] <kingryan> try 'contact'
[23:05:10] <kingryan> it just means 'someone I know how to get in contact with'
[23:07:02] <yakk> okay
[23:07:23] <yakk> is there a "reads" kind of concept?
[23:07:58] <tantek> i suppose we could invent rel="favorite" :p
[23:08:03] <KevinMarks> hah
[23:08:13] <KevinMarks> I sense a convergence
[23:10:45] <kingryan> why not just tag it with 'reads'
[23:10:48] <kingryan> ?
[23:11:18] <yakk> kingryan, shouldn't tags be specified by the user rather than generated by software?
[23:11:23] <limbo_> <ul xclass="xoxo readinglist"><li class="xfolk-entry">*
[23:11:35] <yakk> anyhoo, I'll hack around a little
[23:11:39] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5076 * RyanKing * (-373) WordPress patches for microformats -
[23:11:54] <KevinMarks> I'd say the Netscape bookmark format was woth loking at there
[23:11:56] * DanC chuckles at Tantek's mangled name on http://2006.sxsw.com/interactive/programming/panels/?action=show&id=IAP060038
[23:12:40] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5077 * RyanKing * (-352) hCalendar/hCard/hReview editor -
[23:12:48] <kingryan> DanC, that's not the first time
[23:12:54] <kingryan> nor will it be the last
[23:13:17] <DanC> coincides interestingly with bray's "on PHP" I18N follow-up
[23:13:30] <kingryan> yeah
[23:13:53] <KevinMarks> PHP needs a kick in the nads over that
[23:15:49] <kingryan> there's a lot of utf improvements already in cvs for php6
[23:16:03] <kingryan> ...to be fair
[23:16:23] <limbo_> yay.
[23:16:34] <limbo_> i can parse rel-directory, cite-rel and some xfn
[23:16:47] <KevinMarks> rel-tag?
[23:16:51] <limbo_> using assaf's css selector ruby parser
[23:17:01] <limbo_> i dont need rel-tag for this project :)
[23:17:07] <limbo_> but it'd be just as easy.
[23:17:18] <tantek> maybe with your use of rel-directory
[23:17:25] <limbo_> yep
[23:17:46] <limbo_> code to parse rel-directory:
[23:17:46] <limbo_> rule :dirlinks, "a[rel~=directory]", RelDirectory
[23:17:46] <limbo_> class RelDirectory
[23:17:46] <limbo_> include MicroformatParser
[23:17:46] <limbo_> rule_1 :dirname, "a", "text()"
[23:17:47] <limbo_> rule_1 :dir, "a", "a@href"
[23:17:49] <limbo_> end
[23:17:51] <limbo_>
[23:18:26] <limbo_> it's a pretty neat library.
[23:19:32] <tantek> yakk, you're correct about "tags [should] be specified by the user rather than generated by software"
[23:20:50] <yakk> tantek, for XFN there's not container is there?
[23:22:21] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5078 * RyanKing * (+729) Lazyweb - moving stuffs out of my section
[23:22:59] <kingryan> yakk, no container
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[23:33:12] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5079 * RyanKing * (+190) Field details -
[23:33:30] <kingryan> so, could people take a glance at http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Field_details
[23:33:57] <kingryan> I'm trying to communicate that some of the items in the list are class names, while others are just concepts which use html constructs
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[23:35:38] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=5080 * RyanKing * (+109) Agenda (Wishlist) -
[23:36:10] <hober> kingryan: I think it's pretty clear in your test
[23:36:12] <hober> err, text
[23:36:17] <kingryan> ok
[23:36:29] <kingryan> I just don't want people to scan the list and think that 'contact' is a class name
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[23:51:24] <yakk> I'm still having trouble with the 'why'
[23:51:25] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5081 * RyanKing * (+15) Job Titles -
[23:51:44] <yakk> is there a good article which describes why I want to embed information in a page rather than link to it?
[23:53:28] <yakk> also, is there any tool to convert an atom/rss feed into an hatom fragment?
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[23:53:47] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
[23:55:45] <yakk> tantek, someone vandalized your wiki: http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/attentionxml
[23:57:03] <kingryan> yakk, first of all, the DRY princple
[23:57:07] <kingryan> the data's already there
[23:57:45] * yakk nods.
[23:58:20] <kingryan> so, repeating it elsewhere excessive and introduces opportunities for it to get out-of-sync
[23:58:38] <kingryan> 2. visible data has social pressure to keep it correct/up-to-date
[23:58:44] <kingryan> 'cause peeps are looking at it
[23:59:12] * yakk nods.

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