IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:11:18] * karlUshi (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:11:19] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  3. [00:15:03] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  6. [00:19:10] * Enric_ is now known as Enric
  7. [00:27:31] <Enric> So, is etech over?
  8. [00:32:43] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  16. [01:46:14] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) Quit ("wheerrre's termie? wheerrrrreessss termie?")
  17. [01:46:39] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) has joined #microformats
  18. [01:54:49] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) Quit ("wheerrre's termie? wheerrrrreessss termie?")
  19. [01:54:56] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) has joined #microformats
  20. [02:14:18] * bewest starts working on an awesome hcard generator with an integrated google map
  21. [02:46:12] * BenWard (n=irc@87.115.235.22) Quit ("Fades out again�")
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  26. [03:10:45] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  27. [03:18:15] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  28. [03:18:15] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  29. [03:29:58] * waglo (i=fvf4s2to@cogitateurs-agitateurs/waglo) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  31. [03:34:15] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  32. [03:38:17] * karlLapUshi (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
  33. [03:43:36] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  34. [03:43:37] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  35. [03:44:48] * karlLapTesting (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
  36. [03:56:55] * limbo_ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  37. [03:56:56] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
  38. [03:57:04] * karlUshi (n=karl@131.113.209.178) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  41. [04:29:59] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-82-93.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [04:37:34] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  43. [04:53:59] * karlLapTesting is now known as karlcow
  44. [04:54:07] * amette (n=amette@p54B88CBA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  45. [04:54:15] * amette_ (n=amette@p54B88A72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
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  47. [05:53:52] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  48. [05:53:52] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  49. [05:54:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  50. [05:55:07] <tantek> greetings from Austin!
  51. [05:55:24] <bewest> TX?
  52. [05:55:29] <bewest> my birthplace
  53. [05:57:08] <bewest> what are you doing in Austin?
  54. [06:22:29] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  55. [06:22:30] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  56. [06:28:15] <tantek> bewest: http://sxsw.com/
  57. [06:29:50] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  58. [06:31:28] <jonnay> Heh..
  59. [06:31:33] <jonnay> I'll be there in spirit..
  60. [06:31:44] <jonnay> or at least, in mention.
  61. [06:40:46] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  62. [06:40:46] * tara (n=tara@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  63. [06:40:46] <jibot> tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
  64. [06:45:50] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  65. [06:56:22] <jonnay> tara: I dig this entry: http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/03/difference.html ... nice one.
  66. [07:03:26] <Atamido> tantek: And I am leaving Austin in about 8 hours. :P
  67. [07:04:46] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.71 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  68. [07:04:49] <tara> jonnay...thanks!
  69. [07:07:26] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit ("leaving")
  70. [07:08:25] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  71. [07:26:32] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  72. [07:28:17] <tantek> Atamido, sorry to hear that :(
  73. [07:28:34] * karlLapUshi (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
  74. [07:28:45] <tantek> a few of us are going to Magnolias Cafe for a late dinner
  75. [07:30:47] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Client Quit)
  76. [07:31:18] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  77. [07:32:20] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
  78. [07:41:31] <jonnay> hehe. I just added a microformat check to the web2.0 validator.. :)
  79. [07:41:47] <Atamido> tantek: I was looking forward to hearing about microformats again at SXSW, but my brother had to go get himself engaged. :-\
  80. [07:42:16] <Atamido> Now I must sleep, or tomorrow will be very much unfun.
  81. [07:46:06] * karlcow (n=karl@131.113.209.178) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  82. [07:47:47] <tantek> ok Atamido, maybe next time!
  83. [07:47:52] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) Quit ()
  84. [07:54:09] * karlLapTesting (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
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  87. [08:10:28] * karlLapTesting (n=karl@131.113.209.178) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
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  89. [08:15:05] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  90. [08:51:22] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  91. [08:51:22] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  92. [09:02:42] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  95. [09:08:30] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  96. [09:40:02] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit ("leaving")
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  102. [10:03:10] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  103. [10:03:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  104. [10:03:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  105. [10:05:11] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  106. [10:05:14] * tara (n=tara@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  107. [10:05:15] <jibot> tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
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  127. [14:23:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  128. [15:00:04] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  129. [15:00:05] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  130. [15:27:08] * amette_ is now known as amette
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  133. [16:32:58] * bkdelong (i=user@CAES-THREE-SIXTY-THREE.MIT.EDU) has joined #microformats
  134. [16:32:58] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  142. [17:09:48] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  143. [17:20:40] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  150. [18:05:18] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
  151. [18:17:17] * yakk (n=nnnnnnya@bat.yakk.net) has joined #microformats
  152. [18:17:17] <jibot> yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
  153. [18:28:59] <tantek> that's not very nice
  154. [18:29:09] <tantek> ?forget yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
  155. [18:29:09] <jibot> I no longer know anything about yakk
  156. [18:29:18] <yakk> I blame termie
  157. [18:29:20] <bewest> sounds like my ex-boss
  158. [18:29:24] <bewest> are you my ex-boss?
  159. [18:29:27] <yakk> I'm not that fat...
  160. [18:29:34] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
  161. [18:29:34] <bewest> oh
  162. [18:29:38] <yakk> tantek, how are your travels going?
  163. [18:29:49] <tantek> reasonably well
  164. [18:30:00] <tantek> etech was awesome
  165. [18:30:11] <tantek> couldn't hardly attend a session without someone talking about microformats
  166. [18:32:28] <bewest> microformats is the next buzz
  167. [18:32:30] <bewest> the next ajax
  168. [18:32:48] * bewest places his hands on a crystal ball and puts on a bandana
  169. [18:33:10] <bewest> do you have another convention after this one?
  170. [18:36:34] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  171. [18:36:35] <yakk> tantek, that sounds cool
  172. [18:36:56] <yakk> tantek, I have an aversion to microformats on principle, but I keep finding them really useful :)
  173. [18:37:11] <yakk> tantek, and I guess thats catching on
  174. [18:37:53] * pnhAway is now known as pnhChris
  175. [18:38:25] <tantek> yakk, i'd still like to explore your specific concerns about microformats and see if we can resolve them
  176. [18:38:48] * yakk nods.
  177. [18:39:05] <yakk> I don't really have specific concerns, just a general bad feeling
  178. [18:39:30] <factoryjoe> that sounds kinda quasi to me
  179. [18:39:46] <tantek> sorry to hear that yakk, i hope we can generate more good feelings over time. ;)
  180. [18:40:05] <dglazkov> general bad feeling ?= latent specific concerns
  181. [18:40:33] <yakk> tantek, I hope so too :)
  182. [18:42:10] <dglazkov> my only specific concern w/mfs is how many devs don't get it
  183. [18:42:58] <dglazkov> btw, original REST paper doesn't talk about it, but have you guys read/heard about representation processor pattern?
  184. [18:43:37] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
  185. [18:43:56] <dglazkov> I am hoping I didn't invent the name. I feel like I heard about it, but I can't find anything interesting on Google
  186. [18:45:19] <bewest> representation processor pattern?
  187. [18:45:33] <bewest> the original REST paper is kind of vague, isn't it?
  188. [18:45:36] <dglazkov> brian suda is doing it w/hconverters
  189. [18:45:44] <bewest> in practice it seems much simpler than the paper
  190. [18:45:56] <bewest> link to what he's doing?
  191. [18:46:58] <dglazkov> http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/
  192. [18:47:43] <bewest> ok
  193. [18:48:04] <bewest> you can do a RESTful query to his form
  194. [18:48:08] <bewest> and get back a different format
  195. [18:48:13] <bewest> is that what you mean?
  196. [18:50:52] * BenWard (n=irc@87.115.235.22) Quit ("Fades out again�")
  197. [18:58:01] <dglazkov> it's a start. Representations aren't produced by the same resource. By separating conversion/processing, you can scale
  198. [18:58:13] <dglazkov> you can decouple
  199. [18:58:32] <dglazkov> you don't need to modify original resource behavior
  200. [18:59:33] <tantek> that's a good point dglazkov
  201. [18:59:39] <dglazkov> today's CMS will have the code that converts an HTML file into PDF or MS Word, on the same server. Too much coupling.
  202. [18:59:55] <dglazkov> microformats are a godsend for this type of pattern
  203. [19:00:15] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@dsl017-048-049.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  204. [19:00:15] <dglazkov> that's why I, server guy, am excited about them (not the only reason, but one of them)
  205. [19:02:48] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@71-6-0-194-cust.telepacific.net) has joined #microformats
  206. [19:03:44] <tantek> dglazkov, yes, microformats enables modularity of conversion/processing
  207. [19:14:37] * bkdelong (i=user@CAES-THREE-SIXTY-THREE.MIT.EDU) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  208. [19:14:44] <bewest> I see
  209. [19:15:11] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-9-182.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  210. [19:40:30] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
  211. [19:58:29] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  212. [19:58:29] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  213. [20:01:22] * EliasT (n=EliasT@129.33.1.37) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  214. [20:17:34] <bewest> hmmm the xmdp profiles don't capture some of the hierarchy? for example for hcard, latitude and longitude is listed as siblings with geo
  215. [20:17:54] <bewest> how would you programmatically know, then, that latitude and longitude are properties of geo?
  216. [20:20:54] <bewest> it would be nice to have a spec that tell programs how to represent these things
  217. [20:25:43] <bewest> unless I'm missing something
  218. [20:33:36] <bewest> like a wsdl
  219. [20:35:33] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  220. [20:35:33] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  221. [20:35:49] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@207.200.48.133) Quit ()
  222. [20:36:21] <dglazkov> I don't think it was the intent of xmdp -- to provide complete, generic, machine-readable definition
  223. [20:37:05] <bewest> yeah
  224. [20:37:09] <bewest> well, I get that now
  225. [20:37:40] <bewest> is there something analogous to wsdl / SOAP though? that would tell a program how to build the datastructure?
  226. [20:40:02] <dglazkov> I doubt that there ever will be. Why would one need something like that?
  227. [20:40:30] <bewest> hrm
  228. [20:40:53] <bewest> to accomodate my laziness to hard code the object?
  229. [20:41:08] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  230. [20:41:12] <dglazkov> ah :)
  231. [20:41:16] <bewest> I mean, I'm doing it in javascript right now...
  232. [20:41:23] <bewest> but what if I wanted to do it in C instead at some point
  233. [20:41:46] <dglazkov> so, you're seeing a microformat ORM? :)
  234. [20:41:50] <bewest> ORM?
  235. [20:41:57] <dglazkov> Object/Relations Mapper
  236. [20:42:01] <bewest> yeah
  237. [20:42:33] <dglazkov> it's kind of against the grain w/microformats
  238. [20:42:36] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) Quit ()
  239. [20:42:41] <bewest> hmmm
  240. [20:42:45] <bewest> well extraneous formats is
  241. [20:43:01] <bewest> there are formats that already do this though
  242. [20:43:13] <bewest> SOAP/wsdl can tell you how objects are created
  243. [20:43:21] <bewest> the problem with it is that it's mainly for operations, not just data
  244. [20:43:32] <bewest> and here we have pure data, really
  245. [20:46:18] <bewest> maybe wsdl would do it though
  246. [20:46:55] <jonnay> sounds like putting legs on a snake to me.
  247. [20:47:34] <bewest> oh I see, I think I'm looking for a schema
  248. [20:47:39] <bewest> and that is contradictory
  249. [20:47:43] <jonnay> wouldn't wsdl compromise the human readability?
  250. [20:48:02] <bewest> what I'm after is purely for parsing purposes
  251. [20:48:10] <bewest> generic method of parsing MF's
  252. [20:48:57] <jonnay> Its something to be considered to be sure.. I've been wondering that myself.. but whatever it is, it has to take a back seat to human readability.
  253. [20:49:15] <jonnay> I think parsing MFs is all about using the DOM to and parsing the classes..
  254. [20:49:56] <bewest> yeah, but I'm talking about programmatically knowing which classes to look for
  255. [20:50:04] <bewest> and what to expect in terms of heirarchy
  256. [20:50:16] * bewest takes a look at hcard-o0matic
  257. [20:54:54] <bewest> var city = document.getElementById("city").value; <-- I'm trying to avoid hardcoding every possible member
  258. [20:55:00] <bewest> maybe that's the task though
  259. [20:55:15] <bewest> I'm just so lazy, and I can sniff a better way
  260. [20:55:27] <jonnay> laziness is the halmark of a good programmer.
  261. [20:56:25] <jonnay> Surely you aren't the first person to think about this though. I wonder of XMDP would provide a good starting point?
  262. [20:56:26] <bewest> and I'm not talking about a publishable format, I'm talking about a ... schema perhaps
  263. [20:56:32] <bewest> I looked at XMDP
  264. [20:56:35] <bewest> it's not intended for htis
  265. [20:59:35] <jonnay> Well, tehre are already human-readable schemas on the microformat wiki...
  266. [21:00:21] <jonnay> I wonder if you could boil it down into something that you are looking for..
  267. [21:00:50] <bewest> I'm not talkign about anything meant to be consumed by humans
  268. [21:01:05] <jonnay> Oh,sorry, I misunderstood then.
  269. [21:04:27] <bewest> maybe some kind of reflective technique
  270. [21:04:41] <bewest> I should just hard code it an move on
  271. [21:06:38] * friedcell (i=friedcel@BSN-77-78-252.dsl.siol.net) has joined #microformats
  272. [21:09:36] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  273. [21:10:09] <jonnay> I think its a good idea
  274. [21:11:20] <jonnay> Now that I understand your idea/problem a little more
  275. [21:13:31] <bewest> ah I figured out a way
  276. [21:13:35] <bewest> but it's javascript dependant
  277. [21:13:44] <bewest> I'll show it in a minute
  278. [21:15:53] <bewest> I'm not even sure this will conform with the "n optimization" business
  279. [21:22:08] <bewest> hrm is a root "n" required if given-name is to be used?
  280. [21:31:44] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  281. [21:37:14] <bewest> This is the list of properties (and subproperties, in parantheses, like this) in hCard, taken from vCard. <--- does this mean that sub properties are only valid when they are inside the root property?
  282. [22:03:38] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  283. [22:05:31] * BenWard (n=irc@87.115.235.22) has joined #microformats
  284. [22:09:06] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) has joined #microformats
  285. [22:09:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  286. [22:09:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  287. [22:09:39] <tantek> dglazkov is right
  288. [22:12:08] <bewest> about being against the grain...
  289. [22:12:18] <bewest> yeah I see that I think
  290. [22:12:55] <bewest> on the other hand my laziness is nagging me that there's a better way than attempting to explicitly code every attribute, especially since there is a pattern behind microformats
  291. [22:35:04] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  292. [22:47:54] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  293. [22:49:37] <bewest> http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
  294. [22:54:32] <bewest> I'm looking for a language neutral way of programmatically building that kind of structure
  295. [22:54:46] <bewest> because with that I can just follow some simple rules
  296. [22:54:48] <bewest> and parse any MF
  297. [22:57:29] <jonnay> XML?
  298. [22:58:22] <bewest> perhaps
  299. [22:58:29] <bewest> but I don't want to re-invent any wheels if I don't have to
  300. [22:58:51] <bewest> especially since remaking standards is against the grain here
  301. [23:02:41] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  302. [23:03:58] <tantek> bewest, the problem is that the that nagging feeling that there's a better way than attempting to explicitly code every attribute is an illusion
  303. [23:04:29] <tantek> all attempts to encode all semantics/nuances in a machine readable matter have failed to do so for practical examples. it turns out there are *always* details you have to hardcode
  304. [23:04:38] <tantek> whether you use DTD or schema or whatever
  305. [23:05:06] <tantek> so with XMDP, we explicitly said, we know that it is futile to try to be 100%, so we're going to do 80% (just define the vocabulary) and stop right there for sake of simplicity
  306. [23:11:39] * friedcell (i=friedcel@BSN-77-78-252.dsl.siol.net) Quit ("Those who ignore standards are doomed to reinvent them")
  307. [23:16:39] <TimC> ?learn TimC is Tim Callahan
  308. [23:16:39] <jibot> TimC is Tim Callahan
  309. [23:28:38] * BenWard (n=irc@87.115.235.22) Quit ("Fades out again�")
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