IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:11:19] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [00:27:31] <Enric>
So, is etech over?
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- [03:18:15] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [03:43:37] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [03:56:56] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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- [05:53:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [05:54:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [05:55:07] <tantek>
greetings from Austin!
- [05:55:24] <bewest>
TX?
- [05:55:29] <bewest>
my birthplace
- [05:57:08] <bewest>
what are you doing in Austin?
- [06:22:29] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [06:22:30] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [06:28:15] <tantek>
bewest: http://sxsw.com/
- [06:29:50] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [06:31:28] <jonnay>
Heh..
- [06:31:33] <jonnay>
I'll be there in spirit..
- [06:31:44] <jonnay>
or at least, in mention.
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- [06:40:46] <jibot>
tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
- [06:45:50] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [06:56:22] <jonnay>
tara: I dig this entry: http://www.horsepigcow.com/2006/03/difference.html ... nice one.
- [07:03:26] <Atamido>
tantek: And I am leaving Austin in about 8 hours. :P
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- [07:04:49] <tara>
jonnay...thanks!
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- [07:28:17] <tantek>
Atamido, sorry to hear that :(
- [07:28:34] * karlLapUshi (n=karl@131.113.209.178) has joined #microformats
- [07:28:45] <tantek>
a few of us are going to Magnolias Cafe for a late dinner
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- [07:41:31] <jonnay>
hehe. I just added a microformat check to the web2.0 validator.. :)
- [07:41:47] <Atamido>
tantek: I was looking forward to hearing about microformats again at SXSW, but my brother had to go get himself engaged. :-\
- [07:42:16] <Atamido>
Now I must sleep, or tomorrow will be very much unfun.
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- [07:47:47] <tantek>
ok Atamido, maybe next time!
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- [08:51:22] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:08:30] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [10:03:10] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [10:05:15] <jibot>
tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
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- [14:23:49] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [15:00:05] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [16:32:58] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [17:09:48] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [18:17:17] <jibot>
yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
- [18:28:59] <tantek>
that's not very nice
- [18:29:09] <tantek>
?forget yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
- [18:29:09] <jibot>
I no longer know anything about yakk
- [18:29:18] <yakk>
I blame termie
- [18:29:20] <bewest>
sounds like my ex-boss
- [18:29:24] <bewest>
are you my ex-boss?
- [18:29:27] <yakk>
I'm not that fat...
- [18:29:34] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
- [18:29:34] <bewest>
oh
- [18:29:38] <yakk>
tantek, how are your travels going?
- [18:29:49] <tantek>
reasonably well
- [18:30:00] <tantek>
etech was awesome
- [18:30:11] <tantek>
couldn't hardly attend a session without someone talking about microformats
- [18:32:28] <bewest>
microformats is the next buzz
- [18:32:30] <bewest>
the next ajax
- [18:32:48] * bewest places his hands on a crystal ball and puts on a bandana
- [18:33:10] <bewest>
do you have another convention after this one?
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- [18:36:35] <yakk>
tantek, that sounds cool
- [18:36:56] <yakk>
tantek, I have an aversion to microformats on principle, but I keep finding them really useful :)
- [18:37:11] <yakk>
tantek, and I guess thats catching on
- [18:37:53] * pnhAway is now known as pnhChris
- [18:38:25] <tantek>
yakk, i'd still like to explore your specific concerns about microformats and see if we can resolve them
- [18:38:48] * yakk nods.
- [18:39:05] <yakk>
I don't really have specific concerns, just a general bad feeling
- [18:39:30] <factoryjoe>
that sounds kinda quasi to me
- [18:39:46] <tantek>
sorry to hear that yakk, i hope we can generate more good feelings over time. ;)
- [18:40:05] <dglazkov>
general bad feeling ?= latent specific concerns
- [18:40:33] <yakk>
tantek, I hope so too :)
- [18:42:10] <dglazkov>
my only specific concern w/mfs is how many devs don't get it
- [18:42:58] <dglazkov>
btw, original REST paper doesn't talk about it, but have you guys read/heard about representation processor pattern?
- [18:43:37] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
- [18:43:56] <dglazkov>
I am hoping I didn't invent the name. I feel like I heard about it, but I can't find anything interesting on Google
- [18:45:19] <bewest>
representation processor pattern?
- [18:45:33] <bewest>
the original REST paper is kind of vague, isn't it?
- [18:45:36] <dglazkov>
brian suda is doing it w/hconverters
- [18:45:44] <bewest>
in practice it seems much simpler than the paper
- [18:45:56] <bewest>
link to what he's doing?
- [18:46:58] <dglazkov>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/
- [18:47:43] <bewest>
ok
- [18:48:04] <bewest>
you can do a RESTful query to his form
- [18:48:08] <bewest>
and get back a different format
- [18:48:13] <bewest>
is that what you mean?
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- [18:58:01] <dglazkov>
it's a start. Representations aren't produced by the same resource. By separating conversion/processing, you can scale
- [18:58:13] <dglazkov>
you can decouple
- [18:58:32] <dglazkov>
you don't need to modify original resource behavior
- [18:59:33] <tantek>
that's a good point dglazkov
- [18:59:39] <dglazkov>
today's CMS will have the code that converts an HTML file into PDF or MS Word, on the same server. Too much coupling.
- [18:59:55] <dglazkov>
microformats are a godsend for this type of pattern
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- [19:00:15] <dglazkov>
that's why I, server guy, am excited about them (not the only reason, but one of them)
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- [19:03:44] <tantek>
dglazkov, yes, microformats enables modularity of conversion/processing
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- [19:14:44] <bewest>
I see
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- [19:58:29] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [20:17:34] <bewest>
hmmm the xmdp profiles don't capture some of the hierarchy? for example for hcard, latitude and longitude is listed as siblings with geo
- [20:17:54] <bewest>
how would you programmatically know, then, that latitude and longitude are properties of geo?
- [20:20:54] <bewest>
it would be nice to have a spec that tell programs how to represent these things
- [20:25:43] <bewest>
unless I'm missing something
- [20:33:36] <bewest>
like a wsdl
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- [20:35:33] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
- [20:35:49] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@207.200.48.133) Quit ()
- [20:36:21] <dglazkov>
I don't think it was the intent of xmdp -- to provide complete, generic, machine-readable definition
- [20:37:05] <bewest>
yeah
- [20:37:09] <bewest>
well, I get that now
- [20:37:40] <bewest>
is there something analogous to wsdl / SOAP though? that would tell a program how to build the datastructure?
- [20:40:02] <dglazkov>
I doubt that there ever will be. Why would one need something like that?
- [20:40:30] <bewest>
hrm
- [20:40:53] <bewest>
to accomodate my laziness to hard code the object?
- [20:41:08] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [20:41:12] <dglazkov>
ah :)
- [20:41:16] <bewest>
I mean, I'm doing it in javascript right now...
- [20:41:23] <bewest>
but what if I wanted to do it in C instead at some point
- [20:41:46] <dglazkov>
so, you're seeing a microformat ORM? :)
- [20:41:50] <bewest>
ORM?
- [20:41:57] <dglazkov>
Object/Relations Mapper
- [20:42:01] <bewest>
yeah
- [20:42:33] <dglazkov>
it's kind of against the grain w/microformats
- [20:42:36] * tantek (n=tantek@207.200.48.133) Quit ()
- [20:42:41] <bewest>
hmmm
- [20:42:45] <bewest>
well extraneous formats is
- [20:43:01] <bewest>
there are formats that already do this though
- [20:43:13] <bewest>
SOAP/wsdl can tell you how objects are created
- [20:43:21] <bewest>
the problem with it is that it's mainly for operations, not just data
- [20:43:32] <bewest>
and here we have pure data, really
- [20:46:18] <bewest>
maybe wsdl would do it though
- [20:46:55] <jonnay>
sounds like putting legs on a snake to me.
- [20:47:34] <bewest>
oh I see, I think I'm looking for a schema
- [20:47:39] <bewest>
and that is contradictory
- [20:47:43] <jonnay>
wouldn't wsdl compromise the human readability?
- [20:48:02] <bewest>
what I'm after is purely for parsing purposes
- [20:48:10] <bewest>
generic method of parsing MF's
- [20:48:57] <jonnay>
Its something to be considered to be sure.. I've been wondering that myself.. but whatever it is, it has to take a back seat to human readability.
- [20:49:15] <jonnay>
I think parsing MFs is all about using the DOM to and parsing the classes..
- [20:49:56] <bewest>
yeah, but I'm talking about programmatically knowing which classes to look for
- [20:50:04] <bewest>
and what to expect in terms of heirarchy
- [20:50:16] * bewest takes a look at hcard-o0matic
- [20:54:54] <bewest>
var city = document.getElementById("city").value; <-- I'm trying to avoid hardcoding every possible member
- [20:55:00] <bewest>
maybe that's the task though
- [20:55:15] <bewest>
I'm just so lazy, and I can sniff a better way
- [20:55:27] <jonnay>
laziness is the halmark of a good programmer.
- [20:56:25] <jonnay>
Surely you aren't the first person to think about this though. I wonder of XMDP would provide a good starting point?
- [20:56:26] <bewest>
and I'm not talking about a publishable format, I'm talking about a ... schema perhaps
- [20:56:32] <bewest>
I looked at XMDP
- [20:56:35] <bewest>
it's not intended for htis
- [20:59:35] <jonnay>
Well, tehre are already human-readable schemas on the microformat wiki...
- [21:00:21] <jonnay>
I wonder if you could boil it down into something that you are looking for..
- [21:00:50] <bewest>
I'm not talkign about anything meant to be consumed by humans
- [21:01:05] <jonnay>
Oh,sorry, I misunderstood then.
- [21:04:27] <bewest>
maybe some kind of reflective technique
- [21:04:41] <bewest>
I should just hard code it an move on
- [21:06:38] * friedcell (i=friedcel@BSN-77-78-252.dsl.siol.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:09:36] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [21:10:09] <jonnay>
I think its a good idea
- [21:11:20] <jonnay>
Now that I understand your idea/problem a little more
- [21:13:31] <bewest>
ah I figured out a way
- [21:13:35] <bewest>
but it's javascript dependant
- [21:13:44] <bewest>
I'll show it in a minute
- [21:15:53] <bewest>
I'm not even sure this will conform with the "n optimization" business
- [21:22:08] <bewest>
hrm is a root "n" required if given-name is to be used?
- [21:31:44] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [21:37:14] <bewest>
This is the list of properties (and subproperties, in parantheses, like this) in hCard, taken from vCard. <--- does this mean that sub properties are only valid when they are inside the root property?
- [22:03:38] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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- [22:09:06] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [22:09:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [22:09:39] <tantek>
dglazkov is right
- [22:12:08] <bewest>
about being against the grain...
- [22:12:18] <bewest>
yeah I see that I think
- [22:12:55] <bewest>
on the other hand my laziness is nagging me that there's a better way than attempting to explicitly code every attribute, especially since there is a pattern behind microformats
- [22:35:04] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
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- [22:49:37] <bewest>
http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
- [22:54:32] <bewest>
I'm looking for a language neutral way of programmatically building that kind of structure
- [22:54:46] <bewest>
because with that I can just follow some simple rules
- [22:54:48] <bewest>
and parse any MF
- [22:57:29] <jonnay>
XML?
- [22:58:22] <bewest>
perhaps
- [22:58:29] <bewest>
but I don't want to re-invent any wheels if I don't have to
- [22:58:51] <bewest>
especially since remaking standards is against the grain here
- [23:02:41] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [23:03:58] <tantek>
bewest, the problem is that the that nagging feeling that there's a better way than attempting to explicitly code every attribute is an illusion
- [23:04:29] <tantek>
all attempts to encode all semantics/nuances in a machine readable matter have failed to do so for practical examples. it turns out there are *always* details you have to hardcode
- [23:04:38] <tantek>
whether you use DTD or schema or whatever
- [23:05:06] <tantek>
so with XMDP, we explicitly said, we know that it is futile to try to be 100%, so we're going to do 80% (just define the vocabulary) and stop right there for sake of simplicity
- [23:11:39] * friedcell (i=friedcel@BSN-77-78-252.dsl.siol.net) Quit ("Those who ignore standards are doomed to reinvent them")
- [23:16:39] <TimC>
?learn TimC is Tim Callahan
- [23:16:39] <jibot>
TimC is Tim Callahan
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- [23:52:36] * foolswisdo1 (n=lloyd@209.219.232.146) has left #microformats
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