IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  8. [00:41:35] <jibot> TimC is Tim Callahan
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  13. [01:11:32] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  16. [01:16:23] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  25. [01:29:12] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  33. [02:35:09] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  39. [02:53:13] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  52. [03:38:53] <DanC> hmm... http://austin.adactio.com/ uses ; to separate geo lat/long ... I was using , ...
  53. [03:39:08] <DanC> I sorta got my travel schedule on a google map... http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
  54. [03:39:14] <DanC> just 2 of my events are geocoded
  55. [03:44:16] * DanC reads the x2v code
  56. [03:44:28] <DanC> man... it implements all that p formatting stuff
  57. [03:48:58] <DanC> ok, the RFC says ; . GEO:37.386013;-122.082932 http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2426#sec3.4.2
  58. [03:49:08] <DanC> and x2v maps abbr/title literally (unlike lat/long)
  59. [03:52:00] <DanC> ah... sub-prop does ;-delimited stuff
  60. [03:52:31] <DanC> GEO:20;24;
  61. [03:52:37] <DanC> I think that trailing ; is broken
  62. [03:52:53] <DanC> I know I had to take out a trailing ; in order to get apple ical to eat something one time.
  63. [03:53:50] <DanC> wild... "should
  64. [03:53:50] <DanC> be specified to six decimal places. This will allow for granularity
  65. [03:53:50] <DanC> within a meter of the geographical position."
  66. [03:54:09] <DanC> so you can't say "somewhere in Austin". you have to say _exactly_ where.
  67. [03:54:12] <DanC> well, you should.
  68. [04:04:15] <bewest> DanC: your map doesn't move to the location clicked
  69. [04:04:29] <DanC> in 2 cases, it does. NCE and Austin
  70. [04:04:48] <bewest> yeah
  71. [04:04:57] <DanC> <DanC> just 2 of my events are geocoded
  72. [04:05:03] <bewest> oh oh
  73. [04:05:32] * DanC geocodes some more, a la http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/100
  74. [04:05:56] <bewest> alternatively you can create instant maps with your place published as an hCard at http://www.nearwhere.com/guest/ :-)
  75. [04:08:00] <bewest> currently building a richer interface where you can just publish several locations as a saved map
  76. [04:08:17] <bewest> and the locations are hCards
  77. [04:08:23] <DanC> er... how does that thing know where I live?
  78. [04:08:32] <bewest> magic?
  79. [04:08:37] <bewest> sniffs your IP
  80. [04:08:44] <bewest> spooky or neat?
  81. [04:08:54] <qid> there are services that will give location information for IPs, they don't always work
  82. [04:09:04] <bewest> yeah, it doesn't always work
  83. [04:09:07] <DanC> spooky
  84. [04:09:07] <bewest> it works often though
  85. [04:09:25] * DanC realizes it's off by a few miles. whew.
  86. [04:09:29] <bewest> yeah
  87. [04:09:30] <bewest> it's not you
  88. [04:09:33] <bewest> it's your router
  89. [04:09:35] <bewest> or switch
  90. [04:09:36] <bewest> or something
  91. [04:09:39] <DanC> right
  92. [04:09:39] <bewest> ATM
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  94. [04:09:55] <qid> if your IP is dynamic at all it probably doesn't work very well
  95. [04:10:31] <DanC> it feels invasive. maybe I'm not a typical visitor, but I was definitely spooked.
  96. [04:10:34] <bewest> actually we had a big problem with google because all the ads were targeted for palo alto, CA
  97. [04:10:40] <bewest> I don't think you're atypical
  98. [04:10:44] <bewest> that's the first comment we get
  99. [04:11:05] <bewest> we have several sets of locations that are world wide, we need it to center the map somewhere
  100. [04:11:11] <bewest> we figured where you are would be a good starting point
  101. [04:11:23] <bewest> but it does seem to be unsettling to people
  102. [04:11:34] <bewest> maybe we should back it out to the state or country or something
  103. [04:11:46] <bewest> it just seems so useful though
  104. [04:11:50] <DanC> country, yes. some sort of "find me on the map" button would be ok
  105. [04:12:10] <DanC> or even "what's in Lenexa, KS?"
  106. [04:12:32] <DanC> i.e. a little text link/button
  107. [04:19:37] <DanC> ok, all 6 events geocoded. http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
  108. [04:19:51] * DanC wonders about a better icon, or a little bubble
  109. [04:20:34] <DanC> "We recommend that you use standards-compliant XHTML on pages that contain maps." awesome! http://maps.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/#XHTML_and_VML
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  112. [04:21:02] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  115. [04:28:10] <bewest> DanC: yeah, but then they give you that VML stuff that doesnt' validate
  116. [04:28:37] * DanC cares a lot more about XML-wf-ness than DTD-happiness
  117. [04:28:39] <bewest> I have no idea what this does: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
  118. [04:30:50] <DanC> ah... my aptdata.py doodad was screwing up degree/minute/second calculations...
  119. [04:33:52] * amette_ (n=amette@p54B8A543.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  120. [04:34:57] <bewest> this openid thing is intriguing
  121. [04:35:10] <bewest> but it requires that you have a URL
  122. [04:35:14] * amette (n=amette@p54B8974F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  123. [04:35:20] <bewest> I suppose you could have identity companies that hand out URL's
  124. [04:35:26] <DanC> yup.
  125. [04:35:34] * DanC wonders how we got onto openid
  126. [04:35:38] <bewest> sorry
  127. [04:35:39] <bewest> um
  128. [04:35:44] <bewest> I looked at your schedule
  129. [04:35:48] <bewest> then browsed to the web page
  130. [04:35:48] <DanC> I'm trying to figure out how SXIP and openid relate
  131. [04:36:05] <bewest> because I was wishing I could have attended such a workshop
  132. [04:36:13] <bewest> and then I saw your paper
  133. [04:36:18] <bewest> and then I read some of it
  134. [04:36:22] <bewest> then I browsed to openid
  135. [04:36:46] * DanC thinks this web thing just might come in handy some day ;-)
  136. [04:36:52] <bewest> :-)
  137. [04:36:59] <bewest> well... I'm practically a professional browser
  138. [04:37:04] <bewest> so, probably not
  139. [04:37:26] <bewest> are those kinds of workshops open to the public?
  140. [04:38:05] <DanC> the proceedings are public; I can't remember the rules for getting in...
  141. [04:38:26] <DanC> "The Call for Participation asked all interested parties to submit position papers"
  142. [04:38:50] <DanC> "W3C membership is not required in order to participate in the Workshop."
  143. [04:38:56] <bewest> ah
  144. [04:39:07] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/usability-ws/cfp.html
  145. [04:40:32] <DanC> so you know much about SAML?
  146. [04:41:16] <bewest> no
  147. [04:43:15] <bewest> your full time job is w3c stuff?
  148. [04:43:18] <DanC> yes
  149. [04:43:32] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@A17-255-64-112.apple.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  150. [04:43:55] <DanC> hmm... now that I've figured this vevent/gmap stuff out, what to do with it?
  151. [04:44:43] <bewest> put it on your w3c page?
  152. [04:44:49] <bewest> is that bad form though?
  153. [04:45:06] <DanC> bad form... umm... not too much.
  154. [04:45:22] <DanC> I'd need yet another API key. I guess that's cheap enough
  155. [04:45:53] <DanC> I dunno if I want to spend the screen real-estate on my homepage. And I don't like to have too much javascript/glitz. (though I went for a delicous thingy)
  156. [04:46:30] <DanC> I'd like to use it for my events page, going back to 1991. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/
  157. [04:46:38] <DanC> but that's a lot of geocoding.
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  159. [04:48:33] <DanC> ooh... or maybe on my itinerary... http://www.w3.org/2006/03dc-aus-lga/ticket234
  160. [04:49:29] <bewest> ah that last one needs authentication
  161. [04:49:59] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-118-213.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  162. [04:50:10] <DanC> nah.
  163. [04:50:21] <DanC> not after the trip is over, anyway.
  164. [04:50:30] <DanC> and I've been publishing them since 2001
  165. [04:51:13] <bewest> what did you do before w3c, btw?
  166. [04:51:57] <DanC> UT Austin, Convex, Atrium, Hal. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/misc/vita
  167. [04:53:03] <bewest> oh
  168. [04:56:01] <bewest> so, you got a BS, spent about 5 years in commerical interests then joined W3C full time
  169. [04:56:02] <bewest> neato
  170. [04:56:42] <DanC> yup, that's a good summary.
  171. [04:56:52] <DanC> and you?
  172. [04:57:03] <bewest> btw, your link to hal appears to be broken
  173. [04:57:24] <bewest> hmm I got a BA in music, graduated in July, worked for small web boutique for 6 months
  174. [04:57:26] <bewest> now looking for job
  175. [04:57:54] <DanC> music. yum. http://dm93.org/z2001/ThreeChordsAndTheTruth
  176. [04:58:58] <DanC> and "Arpeggio in D, a little three chord ditty" http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/66
  177. [05:00:29] <bewest> :-) if you play smaller instruments, the airline will let you carry them on
  178. [05:00:45] <bewest> I picked up an erhu in China, and tabla in Singapore
  179. [05:00:50] <bewest> luckily I got to carry them
  180. [05:00:51] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  181. [05:01:02] <DanC> I have had mixed luck carrying on my guitars
  182. [05:01:56] <DanC> once I was flying from Austin to Kansas City, thru Dallas. I asked, in Austin, "Can I carry it on? otherwise, I'll leave it at home". "Yes." then, in dallas, "no. we have to check it." I was stuck!
  183. [05:02:30] <DanC> they didn't crunch it that time.
  184. [05:02:38] <DanC> but I have had a guitar case and some peg tuners crunched
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  186. [05:11:23] * bewest reads immersive editing
  187. [05:14:29] <bewest> hmm
  188. [05:14:54] <bewest> does "immersive editing" suggest that the problem is a technical one?
  189. [05:18:19] <bewest> DanC: even given "perfect" editing controls that would allow one to publish to the uri namespace in an immersive fashion, I'm not sure the web would be any better. There is a tendency for the masses to write html that reads a bit like: "Click on the link below to go to google: <br><br> http://www.google.com/"
  190. [05:20:37] <DanC> well, yes, perhaps the damage is done
  191. [05:20:43] <DanC> but it didn't have to be that way
  192. [05:21:20] * DanC reports the GEO trailing-semi issue to mf-dev, calls it a night
  193. [05:27:00] <bewest> whoah, neato hotmail is going to support microformats?
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  208. [07:49:02] <Atamido> DanC: "Should" in RFCs basically means might/maybe.
  209. [07:49:21] <Atamido> If you allow it at all, you have no control over how much it is used.
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  212. [08:39:32] <bretonslivka> hrmn a directions microformat
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  223. [12:48:44] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5480 * DimitriGlazkov * (+74) Lessons from the Trenches -
  224. [12:49:45] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-21-mix06-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5481 * DimitriGlazkov * (+1) Lessons from the Trenches -
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  227. [13:08:22] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5482 * AlexeyPetrov * (+39) Potential implementations -
  228. [13:08:40] <jakedahn> if anyone is awake, where can i get a vector of the microformats logo?
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  233. [14:34:47] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  234. [14:34:47] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  235. [14:37:33] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
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  240. [14:48:26] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-71-181.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  241. [14:48:26] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  242. [14:52:47] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. [15:02:17] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
  244. [15:08:49] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  245. [15:08:49] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  246. [15:16:57] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  247. [15:16:57] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  248. [15:51:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-82-93.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  249. [15:54:58] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N151P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  250. [15:54:58] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  251. [15:55:16] <RobertBachmann> greetings
  252. [16:00:59] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  253. [16:00:59] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  254. [16:22:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  255. [16:22:01] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  256. [16:23:06] * yamico (n=lk@213-182-119-43.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
  257. [16:40:06] * yamico_ (n=lk@213-182-119-43.teleos-web.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  259. [16:45:56] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  260. [16:45:56] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  261. [16:47:14] <KevinMarks> hi brian
  262. [16:47:26] <KevinMarks> IMA is a very old-style audio codec
  263. [16:47:35] <KevinMarks> use AAC
  264. [16:49:55] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  265. [17:07:01] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) has joined #microformats
  266. [17:07:01] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  267. [17:07:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  268. [17:14:16] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  269. [17:14:16] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  270. [17:14:19] * bergie (n=bergie@66.78.236.255) has joined #microformats
  271. [17:14:19] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  272. [17:19:32] <tantek> greetings
  273. [17:19:46] <tantek> once again I'm logging in #mix06 - today, Live Clipboard session
  274. [17:28:44] * yamico_ (n=lk@87-245-46-126.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
  275. [17:29:19] * taare_ (i=taare@ti100710a081-7597.bb.online.no) Quit ("Reconnecting")
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  277. [17:33:42] <RobertBachmann> pnhChris, I've just replied to your mail regarding hAtom2Atom.xsl
  278. [17:33:59] * bear is now known as bear_errand
  279. [17:37:54] <pnhChris> RobertBachmann: i guess my follow up question is does the "responsibility" lie on the style sheet authors or does hatom 0.x need to define some of these items more explicitly...
  280. [17:38:02] <pnhChris> thanks for the response though
  281. [17:38:09] * pnhChris goes back to work
  282. [17:38:41] <pnhChris> (and i don't mean defining more in page elements.. but the parsing rules)
  283. [17:38:44] * yamico (n=lk@213-182-119-43.teleos-web.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  284. [17:43:10] * bergie (n=bergie@66.78.236.255) Quit ()
  285. [17:44:43] <RobertBachmann> pnhChris, IMO we definitly need a hatom-parsing page on the wiki.
  286. [17:46:58] <RobertBachmann> which describes in detail how things should be parsed.
  287. [17:49:35] * tantek agrees with Robert and offers to help with hatom-parsing
  288. [17:49:38] <tantek> bbiab
  289. [17:49:43] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) Quit ()
  290. [17:49:45] * _fil_ thinks this page is hatom compliant - http://zzz.rezo.net/
  291. [17:49:53] * _fil_ HOPES
  292. [17:52:28] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  293. [17:58:34] <RobertBachmann> _fil_, some class names have changed. "excerpt" -> "entry-summary"; "headline" -> "entry-title"
  294. [18:02:13] <_fil_> ah
  295. [18:02:36] <_fil_> I have trouble with "content"
  296. [18:03:10] <_fil_> e.g. if an article has an "over title" (how do you say this in English?)
  297. [18:03:18] <_fil_> is it in "content" ?
  298. [18:07:03] <RobertBachmann> you want the "entry-title" to be part of the "entry-content"?
  299. [18:07:04] <_fil_> I've corrected excerpt and headline
  300. [18:07:09] <_fil_> no
  301. [18:07:18] <_fil_> "over title" is not the title
  302. [18:07:25] <_fil_> it is the line that is "over" it
  303. [18:07:32] <_fil_> let me find example
  304. [18:07:51] <_fil_> http://mondediplo.com/2006/03/03oilfields
  305. [18:08:04] <_fil_> "Oilfields won't satisfy world demand"
  306. [18:08:32] <_fil_> the tile (headline or entry-tile) is "Saudi Arabia: the sands run out"
  307. [18:09:48] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@dsl017-048-049.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  308. [18:09:51] <RobertBachmann> so you want that "Oilfields won’t satisfy world demand" is a part of the entry-content
  309. [18:09:56] <RobertBachmann> ?
  310. [18:10:07] <_fil_> well, i suppose it is
  311. [18:10:14] <_fil_> it's not floating in the air
  312. [18:10:20] <_fil_> it's part of the article
  313. [18:10:29] <_fil_> as well as the title, i must say
  314. [18:11:29] <_fil_> do you see any other error in http://zzz.rezo.net/ tagging?
  315. [18:13:19] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@71-6-0-194-cust.telepacific.net) has joined #microformats
  316. [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann> <span class="entry-content">Oilfields ...</span>
  317. [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann> <span class="entry-title">Saudi ...</span>
  318. [18:13:38] <RobertBachmann> <div class="entry-content">...</div>
  319. [18:14:34] <RobertBachmann> zzz.rezo.net looks good, besides the missing feed-title.
  320. [18:19:27] <_fil_> feed-title ?
  321. [18:19:44] <_fil_> should I duplicate the page title?
  322. [18:20:10] <_fil_> in my view that's the title, feed or not
  323. [18:20:26] <_fil_> so a parser would take the page title as feed title?
  324. [18:20:54] <_fil_> note that you can use the search engine and get the results as an hAtom feed too, as it's just a template
  325. [18:21:30] <_fil_> and the CSS is awful, waiting for a designer :)
  326. [18:22:08] <RobertBachmann> I've already thought about using /html/head/title as a fall back if no element with class="feed-title" is present. This will be implemented in near future
  327. [18:22:57] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.103) has joined #microformats
  328. [18:22:57] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  329. [18:23:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  330. [18:23:41] <_fil_> ok great
  331. [18:23:57] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  332. [18:24:17] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  333. [18:24:36] <_fil_> re: oil fields, when we "assemble" the article from the "entry-content" class, we won't get it in the correct order
  334. [18:24:53] <_fil_> as the articles' title is not included in the "content"
  335. [18:25:26] <_fil_> tantek: we're talking of the "over title" on http://mondediplo.com/2006/03/03oilfields
  336. [18:26:08] <_fil_> I have difficulty with the idea that it's "entry-content", if the "entry-title" isn't
  337. [18:26:47] <tantek> huh/
  338. [18:26:48] <tantek> ?
  339. [18:27:20] <tantek> article entry-title does not have to be included in the entry-content. only in the hentry itself.
  340. [18:28:29] <_fil_> yes, but now I can't recreate the article from the data
  341. [18:29:00] <_fil_> if the data is, on one side, the entry-title, on the other side, the (concatenation of) the "entry-content"
  342. [18:29:11] <_fil_> I don't know where the title fits in the content
  343. [18:29:13] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=5483 * Tantek * (+94) added 3.22 mix06 page link
  344. [18:29:34] <mfbot> [[rest/ahah]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/ahah&diff=0&oldid=5484 * LB * (+367) AHAH: Asychronous HTML and HTTP -
  345. [18:29:48] <_fil_> (admittedly it's a small issue)
  346. [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann> "Oilfields won’t satisfy world demand" seems to be a some kind of a subtitle (if we ignore the fact that its placed above the title).
  347. [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann> (Wikipedia: "an explanatory or alternate title of a book, play or film, in addition to its main title")
  348. [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann> Atom has a subtitle element, but it is only allowed for <feed> and not for <entry>
  349. [18:33:12] <RobertBachmann> <http://rfc.net/rfc4287.html#s4.2.12.>
  350. [18:39:01] <tantek> yes, subtitle is not 80/20
  351. [18:47:27] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  352. [18:47:27] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  353. [18:47:46] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  354. [18:47:46] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  355. [18:47:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  356. [18:52:05] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-22-mix06-microformats]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-03-22-mix06-microformats * Tantek * (+796)
  357. [18:53:10] <_fil_> on http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom I read "author. required using hCard."
  358. [18:53:32] <_fil_> I would rather have "author. required, preferably using hCard"
  359. [18:53:39] <_fil_> same comment for the line under
  360. [18:54:07] <_fil_> (no, forget this last sentence)
  361. [18:54:10] * timb (n=tim@mail.del.icio.us) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  362. [18:54:41] <_fil_> anyway for the authors I would rather have "preferably"
  363. [18:55:26] <_fil_> cause in many cases you don't want to build an hcard when you have very few info on the author (like, e.g., an IP address)
  364. [18:55:51] <tantek> _fil_, we need to fix hAtom to essentially treat "author" precisely the same as hReview treats "reviewer"
  365. [18:56:01] <tantek> I think that will address all your issues/concerns
  366. [18:56:01] * timb (n=tim@mail.del.icio.us) has joined #microformats
  367. [18:56:31] * bear_errand is now known as bear
  368. [18:59:55] <_fil_> i'm not sure...
  369. [19:00:15] <_fil_> I don't like "For anonymous reviews, use "anonymous" (without quotes) for the full name of the reviewer."
  370. [19:00:20] <_fil_> this is not multilingual
  371. [19:00:31] <tantek> we basically had all the same concerns raised with "reviewer" that you have raised with "author" for hAtom
  372. [19:00:49] <tantek> _fil_, that's a reasonably issue to bring up - go ahead and add it to /wiki/hreview-issues
  373. [19:01:03] <_fil_> what if the reviewer (or author) is "empty" ?
  374. [19:01:27] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  375. [19:01:27] <_fil_> if I don't have the info, it doesn't mean the the page author is the author :)
  376. [19:01:45] <tantek> actually, in the 99% case, it does
  377. [19:01:58] <tantek> since reviews posted on blogs are typically reviews by the author of the blog
  378. [19:05:47] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=5485 * Fil * (+353) hReview issues -
  379. [19:06:17] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.103) Quit ()
  380. [19:12:31] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("Mama never loved me")
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  386. [19:23:50] <kingryan> hey, has anyone here been to XTech before?
  387. [19:23:59] <dglazkov> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/speeches/2006/03-20MIX.asp
  388. [19:27:18] <dglazkov> they misspelled microformats (one word, not two)
  389. [19:27:23] <dglazkov> hmmm?
  390. [19:27:54] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) has joined #microformats
  391. [19:28:45] <kingryan> yeah, that's annoying
  392. [19:28:56] * kingryan tried searching the page for 'microf' and it didn't work
  393. [19:29:12] <KevinMarks> And so all the interoperability standards here, whether it was XML to start with that we were a key part of giving that out as a standard, then the SOAP-level stuff, now we've moved up to a variety of techniques including Web services, all of those things are out there and free for people to use. Even the recent stuff that Ray has done about the simple list extensions, Live Clipboard, that's connecting up to everyone.
  394. [19:29:12] <KevinMarks> TIM O'REILLY: That's true, that stuff really wowed people when he demoed it at our e-Tech Conference. I thought, you know, this whole idea of the semantic Web is actually starting to happen in small ways with micro formats, and I thought the fact that Ray picked up on that was really nice, he got a really great response from the geeks who were my audience.
  395. [19:29:12] <KevinMarks> BILL GATES: Well, I think his analogy that we've been exchanging data and had some standard formats within a machine, that he now would take that to, okay, let's exchange between different Web sites, it's going to take the idea of contact cards, scheduled appointments, set of directions, all these things where we move standard schema, we need micro formats that people agree on, it's going to let that bootstrap. Because th
  396. [19:29:18] <KevinMarks> e more those things become standard, the more other Web sites choose them, and therefore the more popular they become.
  397. [19:29:21] <KevinMarks> TIM O'REILLY: Right, so that you get the network effects that really allow us to weave applications together.
  398. [19:29:24] <KevinMarks> BILL GATES: Right. And it's all very market driven. If some format is too rigid, then nobody is locked into that, somebody can come along and do something completely different.
  399. [19:30:56] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  400. [19:31:49] * limbo_usf is now known as limbo
  401. [19:31:51] * limbo is now known as limbo_
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  403. [19:41:40] <trovv> Do you think Bill, or even Tim, actually meant Microformats specifically, or small-formats, like micro-payments, etc?
  404. [19:42:46] <KevinMarks> they definitely meant microformats, looking at the context
  405. [19:42:54] <kingryan> they probably don't know the specifics of microformats, as we understand them
  406. [19:42:59] <KevinMarks> contact cards, scheduled appointments
  407. [19:43:01] <kingryan> yet, its good to get the brand out there
  408. [19:43:48] <trovv> "it's going to take the idea of contact cards, scheduled appointments" -- going to... already does...
  409. [19:45:19] <trovv> And especially that they mention Microformats, as two words, such as "micro payments" as an idea, and not specifically a brand.
  410. [19:45:30] <KevinMarks> thats a transcription error
  411. [19:54:23] <kingryan> has anyone here been to xtech before?
  412. [20:00:53] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  413. [20:10:37] <KevinMarks> http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/mix06mf.mov
  414. [20:12:36] <KevinMarks> I updated my blog post with the transcript and QT links
  415. [20:15:19] <_fil_> me too :)
  416. [20:20:48] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-118-213.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  417. [20:53:59] * shmuel (n=shmuel@64.241.37.140) has joined #microformats
  418. [20:53:59] <jibot> shmuel is Shmuel Mikel & is found at http://shmuel.org & in Madrid, Spain & is the director of Aware Creative (a non-profit providing creative services to those seeking peace & justice)
  419. [20:54:57] <shmuel> I'm playing with the hcard microformat
  420. [20:55:30] <shmuel> And I'm wondering if there is support for the X (non-standard) items
  421. [20:56:03] <shmuel> For example Mac OS X's address book uses these for instant messaging addresses
  422. [20:56:08] <shmuel> X-JABBER
  423. [20:56:39] <shmuel> Also a synonym in addressbook for type is X-ABLabel
  424. [20:58:23] <shmuel> Quiet room
  425. [20:59:07] <briansuda> there is no support for x-labels because there is no way to determine if it is a microformat or a CSS class
  426. [20:59:43] <shmuel> Couldn't it be determined by the fact that it is within the vcard div?
  427. [21:00:52] <shmuel> Can we not assume that all classes within the vcard class are related to the hcard?
  428. [21:01:19] <briansuda> but if it is an x-label that you created it is not in the hcard profile, so we can't assume anything
  429. [21:03:01] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  430. [21:05:47] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5486 * Narendra * (+202) Examples in the wild -
  431. [21:08:13] <shmuel> Well, I think what I am suggesting is more a question re: parsing than it is a question regarding the XMDP profile
  432. [21:08:42] <shmuel> The parser can compare to the profile and then IF the property is not defined
  433. [21:08:50] <shmuel> And it begins with X-
  434. [21:09:06] <shmuel> Include it in the vcard generated by the hcard
  435. [21:09:11] <shmuel> No?
  436. [21:09:45] <shmuel> I understand that you can explicitly define every potential X option in the XMDP profile
  437. [21:10:05] <shmuel> But it seems to me that you could allow the parser to parse said options
  438. [21:11:14] <kingryan> you could certainly give it a try, but for the format itself we're gonna stick with the standard fields
  439. [21:11:32] <kingryan> some of the extension fields in address book.app can be done with URL anyway
  440. [21:11:47] <shmuel> Well, it's not that X fields are non-standard
  441. [21:11:56] <shmuel> The standard allows for them
  442. [21:12:00] <shmuel> Explicitly
  443. [21:12:32] <shmuel> So that you can include non-standard fields :)
  444. [21:14:05] <shmuel> From the standard: "The profile permits the use of non-standard types (i.e., those
  445. [21:14:05] <shmuel> identified with the prefix string "X-") as a flexible method for
  446. [21:14:05] <shmuel> implementations to extend the functionality currently defined within
  447. [21:14:05] <shmuel> this profile."
  448. [21:14:19] <shmuel> Oops, sorry about the flood
  449. [21:14:48] <_fil_> 22:00 < shmuel> Can we not assume that all classes within the vcard class are related to the hcard?
  450. [21:14:54] <_fil_> no we can't
  451. [21:15:23] <shmuel> Ok, why is that?
  452. [21:15:47] <_fil_> otherwise you'll be obliged to use only semantic class names
  453. [21:16:02] <_fil_> (or i didn't understand your suggestion)
  454. [21:17:34] <shmuel> Ok, well, maybe I should make my suggestion more specific. Can we suggest (as the vcard specification implies) that all classes with in the hcard's vcard class that begin with x- or X- are related to the h/vcard?
  455. [21:17:39] <pnhChris> shmuel: take the case of <body class="vcard"> ... you could have a whole pae in there but just 3 or 4 elements related to the vcard data
  456. [21:17:52] <pnhChris> s/pae/page
  457. [21:18:01] <shmuel> Right, that seems a strange way to use hcards to me but - ok.
  458. [21:18:01] * limbo_ (n=me@dsl081-055-160.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("> food")
  459. [21:18:05] <pnhChris> well
  460. [21:18:12] <shmuel> I take your point.
  461. [21:18:23] <_fil_> not if the web page is "the author's page"
  462. [21:18:29] <pnhChris> there's 2 approaches.. one is just embedding a small chunk of data into a document
  463. [21:18:32] <_fil_> with a full bio containing lots of things
  464. [21:18:36] <pnhChris> the other is overlaying two documents
  465. [21:18:42] <_fil_> images, and so on
  466. [21:18:53] <_fil_> an many classes just for presentation purposes
  467. [21:18:56] <shmuel> Ok, I see that - again, I'll give that point.
  468. [21:19:09] <shmuel> I'm not interested in seeing EVERY class included
  469. [21:19:12] <shmuel> Only x- classes
  470. [21:19:23] <_fil_> then you'd want to limit it to x-... things
  471. [21:19:25] <shmuel> Per the vcard specification
  472. [21:19:29] <shmuel> Right
  473. [21:19:41] <shmuel> Which doesn't seem overly burdensome to me
  474. [21:19:46] <_fil_> this is not really the microformat way of doing things
  475. [21:19:50] <_fil_> *but*
  476. [21:20:02] <_fil_> but you can add whatever you like to microformats :)
  477. [21:20:04] <shmuel> Ok... elaborate on that... ?
  478. [21:20:17] <shmuel> Why is that not the microformat way
  479. [21:20:24] <_fil_> the microformat delivers a simple "bare bones" standard
  480. [21:20:36] <_fil_> (or, would-be standard, based on standards)
  481. [21:20:49] <_fil_> something very simple most people can agree on
  482. [21:21:08] <_fil_> they don't aim to encompass all cases
  483. [21:21:22] <_fil_> you can just build things upon this the way you want
  484. [21:21:33] <_fil_> even agree on "standards" on top of microformats
  485. [21:22:00] <_fil_> but the mf approach is really "minimalist"
  486. [21:22:24] * _fil_ speaks without authority on the subject
  487. [21:22:41] <briansuda> the next issue is then all these x-params floating around, how do you say that it is for hCard or hCal? in my opinion it is a bad idea not only because it starts making vendor specific terms, but then it starts to fork applications that transform HTML to the corresponding formats
  488. [21:24:06] <_fil_> this will happen anyway
  489. [21:24:37] <_fil_> the 80/20 rule means 20% of applications will need to find ways to do their stuff outside the strict scope of mf
  490. [21:24:52] <shmuel> Exactly fil - I think it is shortsighted to make the format so strict
  491. [21:25:03] <_fil_> but if everyone agrees on the 80% part then we have beautifull interoperability "on the field"
  492. [21:25:06] <shmuel> Best to define a way in which these cases will be handled
  493. [21:25:23] <pnhChris> well
  494. [21:25:30] <_fil_> yes and no: more specific things are beyond the scope of mf
  495. [21:25:34] <pnhChris> i'd suggest the 80/20 be read differently
  496. [21:25:36] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) has joined #microformats
  497. [21:25:36] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  498. [21:25:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  499. [21:26:00] <_fil_> shmuel: i disagree with your view
  500. [21:26:09] <shmuel> :)
  501. [21:26:17] <_fil_> it's wise, on the contrary, to make things simple
  502. [21:26:31] <_fil_> and leave it to others to build whatever they want on top of it
  503. [21:26:34] <shmuel> Well, my view is based on a couple of things:
  504. [21:26:51] * pnhChris notices tantek walking in
  505. [21:26:54] * _fil_ could never understand why RSS was so complicated
  506. [21:27:05] <shmuel> - Experience which tells me that every standard will get added to
  507. [21:27:32] <shmuel> - Precedence which says most standards use the x- format
  508. [21:27:45] <shmuel> ical, vcard
  509. [21:27:47] <tantek> or vnd.
  510. [21:27:49] <shmuel> mail headers
  511. [21:27:55] <shmuel> etc etc
  512. [21:28:01] <KevinMarks> right, but x- means 'my private thing that I hope to get standardised later'
  513. [21:28:09] * tantek wonders what discussion he walked in the middle of
  514. [21:28:23] <shmuel> Right, and so it should
  515. [21:28:34] <shmuel> But it's nice to have interim operability
  516. [21:28:34] <tantek> or just my private thing
  517. [21:28:46] <KevinMarks> so your worry is that vCard ->hCard ->vCard will strip the x- elements?
  518. [21:28:47] <tantek> doesn't necessarily indicate any intent/desire to have it standardized later
  519. [21:28:59] <pnhChris> adding x- parsing methods to the relevant mfs
  520. [21:29:16] <tantek> most x- properties are totally unnecessary
  521. [21:29:17] <shmuel> My suggestion is this (also for tantek)
  522. [21:29:23] <shmuel> I agree tantek
  523. [21:29:25] <shmuel> But...
  524. [21:29:26] <tantek> essentially mistakes and misunderstandings by implementers
  525. [21:29:32] <tantek> thus for now we ignore them
  526. [21:30:03] <tantek> except as indicators of what *developers* are thinking
  527. [21:30:12] <tantek> but of course we give much greater weight to what *publishers* are thinking
  528. [21:30:17] <shmuel> Well, it's my (humble) opinion that refusing to acknowledge these cases is short sighted
  529. [21:30:44] <tantek> and inflating their significance is a waste of time
  530. [21:31:07] <shmuel> Hmm
  531. [21:31:33] <tantek> 80/20 is the response to most such things
  532. [21:32:04] <shmuel> Ignoring them at the expense of functionality is better/
  533. [21:32:05] <shmuel> ?
  534. [21:32:26] <shmuel> It seems a high-tower mentality to me
  535. [21:32:50] <pnhChris> shmuel: maybe some examples of what you think is missing would help at moving the conversation forward
  536. [21:33:08] <KevinMarks> btw tantek, updated links to Gates are on my blog if you want to propagate them to mf.org http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_epeus_archive.html#114298458682596670
  537. [21:33:16] <pnhChris> .. or is it really just "it all"
  538. [21:33:45] <shmuel> X-JABBER, X-MSN, etc. for example
  539. [21:34:05] <shmuel> At least until they get standardized - which I presume they will one day
  540. [21:34:54] <shmuel> The IM client tags are an excellent example of something /publishers/ want to put in their content
  541. [21:34:59] <tantek> not high-tower
  542. [21:35:02] <tantek> opportunity cost of time
  543. [21:35:11] <tantek> fringe stuff is not worth the time in comparison to the 80%
  544. [21:35:52] <shmuel> Simply acknowledging and passing on x- tags is one feature, and hardly a fringe one at that (IMHO)
  545. [21:37:25] <shmuel> I know that /many/ publishers and developers are not going to want to take every possible x-tag for every addressbook in to account
  546. [21:37:39] <shmuel> It's right back to having to code different html for every browsers
  547. [21:38:10] <shmuel> But many publishers/developers live in the world between what they want to do and what they recognize the need to do
  548. [21:38:12] <tantek> and we know how that ended up
  549. [21:38:18] <tantek> publishers have moved on
  550. [21:38:34] <pnhChris> i don't know.. i seem to see the issue of how little data is really sotred more often then how much or how detailed.. but perhaps i'm just looking at a different application then you are
  551. [21:38:35] <shmuel> Most publishers still code for as many browsers as they can
  552. [21:38:44] <shmuel> Especially in corporate enviroments
  553. [21:39:22] <shmuel> pnhChris: I'm sorry I didn't understand what you just said
  554. [21:41:07] <pnhChris> just that you're looking at a problem of someone trying to publish a ton of data types.. and most of the cases i've encountered are where an existing web application really doesn't do a good job at breaking down the information and storing all that many different permutations of a "card"
  555. [21:41:08] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-69-107-57-254.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  556. [21:41:18] <bewest> shmuel: I think he means that on average, implementations go with the least amount of disctinct properties they can store, as opposed to the greatest
  557. [21:41:26] <pnhChris> but that could be just that we're workign in different contexts
  558. [21:41:42] <tantek> nah, modern web publishers code in XHTML+CSS
  559. [21:41:58] <shmuel> Right but have you seen the number of "hacks" in most css?
  560. [21:41:58] <tantek> and have largely abandoned 99% of browser-specific coding because it is a waste of time/resource
  561. [21:42:07] * tantek chuckles
  562. [21:42:09] <pnhChris> right.. but user registrations forms generally have a low and fixed # of data types they store
  563. [21:42:10] <bewest> yeah, I never code more than one version of something. if it doesn't work, I rewrite it and dumb it down till it works everywhere
  564. [21:42:17] <tantek> yep
  565. [21:42:30] <bewest> hacks and browser specificities are a waste of my time
  566. [21:42:31] <tantek> seriously, this is all about most effective use of time
  567. [21:42:40] <tantek> focusing on the 80% first is the most effective thing to do
  568. [21:42:48] <shmuel> Ok, let me ask this then
  569. [21:42:48] <pnhChris> or even cases like job boards or myspace profiles.. still allow for a limited range of data types
  570. [21:43:02] <tantek> if any particular extension becomes relevant enough to bubble up, then we'll look at it, until then it's simply a waste of time, compared to other work
  571. [21:43:07] <pnhChris> rather then.. say... an application to turn AddressBook.app into a web page
  572. [21:43:11] * tantek is going to lunch
  573. [21:43:15] <shmuel> How does one code a IM address (a pretty major address on the net I would say) into a hcard
  574. [21:43:25] <tantek> shmuel, send email to microformats-discuss
  575. [21:43:31] <tantek> http://microformats.org/discuss
  576. [21:43:34] <tantek> see you on the list!
  577. [21:43:36] * tantek (n=tantek@65.160.19.104) Quit ()
  578. [21:44:11] <shmuel> Ok
  579. [21:44:14] <shmuel> Well ...
  580. [21:44:47] <shmuel> We'll see how it all pans out in the end I guess
  581. [21:45:18] <_fil_> I agree IM is big enough to be considered :)
  582. [21:45:31] <_fil_> just start using it
  583. [21:45:31] <pnhChris> the messanger address is soemthing that has come up a few times at least already
  584. [21:45:49] <_fil_> when ppl uses it, mf will valid them
  585. [21:45:53] <pnhChris> with the schemes that don't have their own protocl getting the short end of thigns currently
  586. [21:45:56] <_fil_> not the other way round
  587. [21:45:58] <shmuel> pnhChris: I'm sure it has.
  588. [21:46:03] <kingryan> aren't there url schemes (albeit, unregistered) for IM clients?
  589. [21:46:19] <_fil_> not in my knowledge
  590. [21:46:22] <shmuel> kingryan: for a couple
  591. [21:46:22] <pnhChris> kingryan: no.. not all protocols
  592. [21:46:26] <shmuel> yim
  593. [21:46:26] <shmuel> aim
  594. [21:46:29] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5487 * DimitriGlazkov * (+318) Entry Author (atom:author) -
  595. [21:46:29] <kingryan> skype
  596. [21:46:33] <shmuel> For aol and yahoo
  597. [21:46:37] <_fil_> there's still one thing per IM space
  598. [21:46:45] <pnhChris> MSN has none
  599. [21:46:49] <_fil_> that's a big big mistake
  600. [21:46:49] <shmuel> Right
  601. [21:47:05] <kingryan> _fil_, you say its a mistake to have a different scheme for each network?
  602. [21:47:11] <_fil_> yes
  603. [21:47:17] <kingryan> but they *are* different protocols
  604. [21:47:18] <briansuda> Apple Address book is the only app i know that actually makes use of IM names, does outlook?
  605. [21:47:24] <kingryan> just like http and ftp are
  606. [21:47:27] * shmuel agrees with kingryan
  607. [21:47:32] <bewest> google does, kind of
  608. [21:47:43] <_fil_> I don't care the internals
  609. [21:47:48] <_fil_> the use is the same
  610. [21:48:08] <_fil_> the clients are often the same
  611. [21:48:10] <mfbot> [[DimitriGlazkov]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/DimitriGlazkov * DimitriGlazkov * (+37)
  612. [21:48:27] <shmuel> _fil_: even the clients have to know which protocol you are talking about
  613. [21:48:40] <_fil_> that's more a naming space to me
  614. [21:48:46] <mfbot> [[DimitriGlazkov]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=DimitriGlazkov&diff=0&oldid=5488 * DimitriGlazkov * (-4)
  615. [21:49:02] <bewest> briansuda: most apps go the other way: they allow users to use another name as an alias to an IM name, which suggests people find IM names less useful than a preconcieved name, perhaps
  616. [21:49:18] <_fil_> people are obliged to use aliases
  617. [21:49:30] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  618. [21:49:49] <_fil_> I myself can't remember my IM addresses
  619. [21:49:56] <shmuel> _fil_: I agree that IM is a broken thing in general
  620. [21:49:59] <_fil_> except on jabber cause it's on my server
  621. [21:50:01] <kingryan> _fil_, its more than namespacing, each require different technology
  622. [21:50:14] <_fil_> well, then it means it's broken
  623. [21:50:21] <kingryan> of course, its broken
  624. [21:50:25] <_fil_> ok
  625. [21:50:30] <kingryan> but there are degrees of brokenness :D
  626. [21:50:38] <shmuel> :)
  627. [21:50:57] <_fil_> you say "can you send me an email ?"
  628. [21:51:07] <_fil_> not "can you send me an aol message" ?
  629. [21:51:08] <kingryan> RobertBachmann, you here?
  630. [21:51:22] <pnhChris> you can say "can you AIM me"
  631. [21:51:26] <pnhChris> why not?
  632. [21:51:32] <_fil_> what is it?
  633. [21:51:35] <_fil_> Apple?
  634. [21:51:37] <_fil_> AOL?
  635. [21:51:45] <shmuel> _fil_: maybe someday we will achieve unified instant messaging
  636. [21:51:48] <shmuel> But until then
  637. [21:51:56] <shmuel> We have to acknoledge different protocols
  638. [21:52:03] <kingryan> yes, until then, let's not try to fix all problems at once
  639. [21:52:17] <_fil_> I'm not trying to fix anything here :)
  640. [21:52:20] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  641. [21:52:25] <kingryan> we already have an addressing mechanism which can point at resources using various protocols
  642. [21:52:42] <pnhChris> _fil_: its understood by convention / popularity to be aol
  643. [21:52:48] <_fil_> it's just to say that the whole idea of "an AIM address" is a big problem in itself
  644. [21:52:54] <kingryan> if you wanna point to MSN IM handles on the web, we need a URL scheme
  645. [21:52:55] <_fil_> though it's a simple idea
  646. [21:53:28] <kingryan> I don't think its an inherent problem
  647. [21:53:37] <shmuel> Ok, thanks for listening to my ideas - and disagreeing with them :)
  648. [21:53:38] <shmuel> Later
  649. [21:53:39] <RobertBachmann> kingryan, yes
  650. [21:53:39] <kingryan> today *email* is generic, but that hasn't always been the case
  651. [21:53:57] <kingryan> I just got a weird email from svn about post-commit.pl failing
  652. [21:53:58] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  653. [21:53:58] <kingryan> ?
  654. [21:54:03] <_fil_> yes; we should fix the post office too: why not say "send this packet to fil@rezo.net"
  655. [21:54:08] * shmuel (n=shmuel@64.241.37.140) has left #microformats
  656. [21:54:09] <_fil_> write this on the envelope
  657. [21:54:19] <_fil_> and let the post office deal with it
  658. [21:54:24] <kingryan> _fil_, we should invent teleportation, too
  659. [21:54:33] <_fil_> i'm not joking
  660. [21:54:39] * pnhChris runs off to do soemthing more productive
  661. [21:54:47] <pnhChris> ... like learning how to type
  662. [21:55:16] <_fil_> if my email=>street address is not on the PO database, they'll just send me an email to know where I live
  663. [21:55:21] <_fil_> if my email=>street address is not on the PO database, they'll just send me an email to ask where I live
  664. [21:55:35] <_fil_> should be the same for IM
  665. [21:56:07] <_fil_> jabber is almost doing this
  666. [21:56:11] <pnhChris> are you saying there should be a 1:1 correspondence between email and physical address?
  667. [21:56:46] <kingryan> you should be able to write this on an envelope: http://technorati.com/about/contact.html#whatsthis
  668. [21:57:22] <pnhChris> and when the web page updates while the package is in the back of a plane?
  669. [21:57:24] <pnhChris> :P
  670. [21:57:24] <RobertBachmann> kingryan, yes I just broke the hook script of my SVN repository. It should work again now.
  671. [21:57:32] <_fil_> ;-)
  672. [21:57:38] <kingryan> k, just making sure you were aware RobertBachmann
  673. [21:58:57] <KevinMarks> you mean we have an mf svn repository now?
  674. [21:59:21] <_fil_> anyway, while the IM mess is not cleared, the IM microformat will not be very useable
  675. [21:59:36] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  676. [21:59:38] <RobertBachmann> KevinMarks, I was talking about the repository for hAtom2Atom.xsl which is hosted on my server
  677. [21:59:45] <KevinMarks> ah
  678. [22:00:01] <jakedahn> Can someone point me to someplace where I can get a vector version of the Microformats logo?
  679. [22:00:13] <RobertBachmann> BTW SourceForge.net now provides SVN
  680. [22:00:43] <jakedahn> RobertBachmann: It was a good move on SourceForge's part :)
  681. [22:00:56] <jakedahn> who doesn't love svn? ;)
  682. [22:02:35] <Jonnay> darcs snobs...
  683. [22:03:57] <_fil_> RobertBachmann: is this the URL. http://rbach.priv.at/hAtom2Atom/hAtom2Atom-HEAD.xsl
  684. [22:04:22] <_fil_> google gives me my own site :-\
  685. [22:05:31] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  686. [22:05:46] * DanC tunes in...
  687. [22:06:26] <DanC> briansuda, are you around? did you see my msg about GEO and ;s?
  688. [22:06:44] <RobertBachmann> _fil_, yes
  689. [22:06:50] * DanC wishes for bandwith to study hAtom2Atom.xsl
  690. [22:08:03] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  691. [22:09:00] <briansuda> yes, i did get the GEO issue, i wonder if it effects all multi ';' items like ADR, etc...
  692. [22:11:26] <KevinMarks> brian, that x2v Z timezone fix looks good - any idea on the encoding issue ?
  693. [22:12:01] <KevinMarks> http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fopenrightsgroup.org seems to be treating utf-8 as 8859-1
  694. [22:12:12] <DanC> timezone fix?
  695. [22:12:34] * DanC planned to really tune in at this time, but finds himself with other stuff that can't wait
  696. [22:12:46] <KevinMarks> there was an issue with a 'Z' timezone not padding wiht seconds
  697. [22:13:12] <DanC> hmm... makes me wonder about test materials.
  698. [22:13:38] <DanC> Brian and I set up a CVS director on dev.w3.org but never got around to using it. I gather there's SVN on microformats.org somewhere. I'm game to use that.
  699. [22:14:02] <DanC> (I'd actually rather use mercurial/ht, but that's another story)
  700. [22:14:03] <kingryan> there's supposed to be, but I've been slow to get it going
  701. [22:14:09] <DanC> mercurial/hg, rather
  702. [22:14:12] <kingryan> (svn, that is)
  703. [22:14:50] <DanC> if svn isn't set up, wanna try mercurial? it needs no server.
  704. [22:15:01] <DanC> well, it needs a server from each person, but no shared server
  705. [22:15:14] <kingryan> how do you share code, then?
  706. [22:15:15] <briansuda> KevinMarks: the issue is with Tidy (not a big supprise) http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fopenrightsgroup.org%2F mangles the text X2V just interprets that
  707. [22:15:35] <KevinMarks> grr
  708. [22:15:37] <DanC> you share p2p. hg pull http://joe.example/his-stuff
  709. [22:15:45] <kingryan> hmm
  710. [22:16:12] <kingryan> I kinda like the idea of having an authoritative repo available on the web
  711. [22:16:30] <DanC> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi
  712. [22:17:24] <KevinMarks> well, that gets the Content-Type right in the HTML header, just not in the meta
  713. [22:17:32] <DanC> wow... I spend all my time trying to figure out how to decentralize stuff. authority is a royal pain to manage. ;-)
  714. [22:17:56] <kingryan> right, but what if joe schmoe wants to find the latest, good code?
  715. [22:17:56] <KevinMarks> iirc, the one in the HTML Header is supposed to be more authoritative
  716. [22:18:00] <DanC> er... you guys are aware that http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy could go poof at any time, yes?
  717. [22:18:21] * kingryan wasn't
  718. [22:18:26] <DanC> it's a weekend hack of mine. I think one of our systems guys likes it, but it's not like we guarantee it'll be around.
  719. [22:18:44] <DanC> we do publish the code and welcome others to install it.
  720. [22:19:02] <kingryan> well, brian's hosting setup doesn't allow him to run tidy, so that's what he's got for now
  721. [22:19:40] * DanC knows how to bring the microformats world to its knees now. BWAAHAHAHA. ;-)
  722. [22:20:15] * kingryan points to http://feeds.technorati.com/[contacts|events]/
  723. [22:20:25] <kingryan> BWAAHAHAHAHA
  724. [22:20:33] <DanC> feeds.technorati doesn't depend on cgi.w3.org ?
  725. [22:20:37] <kingryan> nope
  726. [22:20:40] <DanC> ah. good.
  727. [22:20:49] <kingryan> libtidy in php
  728. [22:21:12] <KevinMarks> ryan, did you pick up the x2v fix there>
  729. [22:21:14] <KevinMarks> ?
  730. [22:21:27] <kingryan> which fix?
  731. [22:21:30] <DanC> briansuda, what do you use for version control for X2V, anything?
  732. [22:22:04] <KevinMarks> loooks liek no
  733. [22:22:42] <DanC> jibot, KevinMarks?
  734. [22:22:47] <KevinMarks> the change brian made yesterday to fix the ORG hCard bug
  735. [22:22:47] <briansuda> no i'm really bad at that, i just have old copies, nothing is checked-in/out (partly because i recently swicted mahcines, partly because there is to be an MF SVN - but i really should - along with some regression tests)
  736. [22:23:07] <DanC> hg can be used completely locally, then exported over http later.
  737. [22:23:37] <DanC> you don't use any version control. wow. I have checked in every line of code I have written since... 1990, probably.
  738. [22:24:00] * DanC admits to being a closet librarian
  739. [22:25:35] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2005/mfcode/ is still available if you/we want to use it. Brian's ssh key is installed. I can get other keys installed (sometimes in a few minutes, sometimes a few days)
  740. [22:25:45] <briansuda> i normally use SVN, but X2V has been handled over too many different (very old) machines
  741. [22:26:17] <DanC> hg is _great_ for hacking on many machines. it's totally p2p. no machine is the master. you can commit from anywhere.
  742. [22:26:34] <briansuda> i still have all the w3c CVS info, we can certainly start there, and/or get the MF SVN up, i know afew people want to checkin their test files as well.
  743. [22:27:02] <_fil_> hatom2atom.xsl now asks for uri.xsl ?
  744. [22:27:19] <Jonnay> maybe its casue I am a control freak, but I like the central repository idea... ;)
  745. [22:27:22] * _fil_ reads the comments :(
  746. [22:27:30] <DanC> hmm... I think I take back "a few minutes". our systems guys require folks to create an account. it's not too bad once you know how to do it, but learning tends to be painful.
  747. [22:28:43] <_fil_> ok found it
  748. [22:28:45] <DanC> central repositories suck if you want to code on a plane. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/96 "Mercurial totally revolutionizes coding on a plane."
  749. [22:30:22] <Jonnay> Mmm. Never thought of that.
  750. [22:31:28] <DanC> if joe schmoe wants to find the latest good code, he follows his nose. microformats.org can have one hg repository; that could be the "master" in some sense. but joe can pull from my repository, even though I can't commit to microformats.org
  751. [22:32:24] <DanC> you can also set up hg to work like svn or cvs, with a central server and ssh keys and all that hassle.
  752. [22:32:35] <DanC> (well, so say other people; I haven't done that.)
  753. [22:33:13] <kingryan> so, with hg you can publish the files to an http-accessible directory as flat files?
  754. [22:34:03] <DanC> er... you can, by checking them out. And you can have a hook script that checks out on commit...
  755. [22:34:19] <DanC> ... but to get the p2p effect, you have to run a cgi or a long-running hg process
  756. [22:34:39] <kingryan> ok
  757. [22:34:39] <DanC> in addition to hg commit and hg log and such, there's hg server
  758. [22:34:43] <DanC> er... hg serve
  759. [22:34:49] <kingryan> hmm, ok
  760. [22:35:34] <DanC> there's also hg export and import, for mailing patches around.
  761. [22:35:53] <DanC> and hg bundle, for mailing compressed binary patchsets.
  762. [22:35:56] * kingryan is looking at `hg pull`
  763. [22:36:01] <DanC> mailing/storing/whetever
  764. [22:36:21] * limbo_ (n=me@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  765. [22:36:21] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
  766. [22:36:44] <briansuda> i'm certainly willing to give it a go! i have pretty poor access to the internet, i'd but out of the system for most of the time
  767. [22:36:58] <briansuda> i'd [be] out...
  768. [22:37:23] <bewest> nifty
  769. [22:37:25] <kingryan> danc, why'd you choose hg over svk?
  770. [22:37:42] * _fil_ has finished a hAtom2Atom plugin for SPIP
  771. [22:37:47] * _fil_ happy
  772. [22:37:48] <DanC> svk still requires a central server. you can't commit from a plane, as I understand it.
  773. [22:38:00] * DanC fires up "hg serve" on one of his repositories... http://dm93.org:8000/
  774. [22:38:23] <DanC> svk feels like a hack on top of a kludge, to me.
  775. [22:38:41] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) has left #microformats
  776. [22:39:03] <kingryan> hmm, I think I'd be willing to have a try at hg
  777. [22:39:04] <bewest> DanC: you've used hg since 1990ish?
  778. [22:39:22] <DanC> no, I've only used hg for a few months. I've used rcs/cvs/ssh since 1990
  779. [22:39:28] <kingryan> I'm fed up with trying to get svn to work with our existing setup (trying to auth against mediawiki's user table)
  780. [22:39:41] <DanC> but hg is used for some big projects, like that virtualization thing... xen?
  781. [22:40:10] <kingryan> so, DanC, how would we set it up to have you merge your code into the 'central' repo?
  782. [22:40:32] <DanC> the easiest way is: I don't. you do. you pull my changes.
  783. [22:40:39] <kingryan> ah, ok
  784. [22:40:46] <RobertBachmann> kingryan, Mediawiki stores it's passwords in a very sick way, might be the cause for trouble
  785. [22:40:54] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  786. [22:41:04] <DanC> next easiest is: you put my ssh key in a magic place that lets me do: hg push ssh://microformats.org/blahblah
  787. [22:41:07] <kingryan> yeah, RobertBachmann, but photomatt has gotten it working elsewhere and tried to get it setup that way for mf.org
  788. [22:41:08] <RobertBachmann> its*
  789. [22:41:18] <kingryan> that's reasonable, DanC
  790. [22:42:04] <RobertBachmann> without chaning the wiki source code?
  791. [22:42:09] <kingryan> yeah
  792. [22:42:20] * kingryan needed an odd build of mod_auth_mysql, though
  793. [22:42:25] <kingryan> which we can't get working on our setup
  794. [22:43:43] <DanC> re mediawiki and auth foo... how about you scrap it and use openid or sxip/dix? (yes, I'm a troublemaker ;-)
  795. [22:44:07] <kingryan> how about you add about 12 hours to the day
  796. [22:44:12] <kingryan> and make me better looking, too
  797. [22:44:20] <DanC> coming right up!
  798. [22:44:21] <Jonnay> I'd like a pony...
  799. [22:44:21] <DanC> ;-)
  800. [22:44:22] <kingryan> and I'd like to lose 10 lbs
  801. [22:44:59] <_fil_> it's kind of easier to admit that you'll add svn commiters one by one in a flat file
  802. [22:45:04] * DanC really wants to play with mediawiki and openid or sxip; has almost found time for it
  803. [22:45:37] <kingryan> alright, I'm willing to give hg a try instead of svn for mf.org
  804. [22:46:17] <kingryan> which means, briansuda you could go ahead an put x2v in your own hg instance, then once I get it running on mf.org, we can get a workflow going for merging changes in
  805. [22:46:47] <DanC> cool...
  806. [22:46:55] * DanC noodles on running hg...
  807. [22:47:05] <briansuda> not a prob, i downloaded and installed hg on my machine
  808. [22:47:12] <kingryan> great
  809. [22:47:15] <_fil_> RobertBachmann: I've had to copy hatom2atom @ http://zone.spip.org/trac/spip-zone/browser/_plugins_/hatom2atom
  810. [22:47:28] <_fil_> works like a charm :)
  811. [22:47:28] <briansuda> i am now wondering if my NAT is going to be a prob for people to pull from me, i can always PUSH to the server
  812. [22:47:37] <DanC> hmm... I could just use dm93.org ... though that's not backed by w3c systems folks... hmm...
  813. [22:47:55] <kingryan> yeah, briansuda, I could get you an ssh-key setup with mf.org
  814. [22:48:36] <briansuda> great, this sounds like a plan!
  815. [22:49:19] * RobertBachmann looks at http://zone.spip.org/trac/spip-zone/browser/_plugins_/hatom2atom/hatom2atom.php
  816. [22:49:19] * kingryan wonders if his office hours will be this productive each week
  817. [22:51:42] * DanC grabs http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/release/mercurial-0.8.tar.gz , installs in ~ on homer.w3.org ...
  818. [22:51:44] * _fil_ has to add credits for the XSLT sheet
  819. [22:51:53] <_fil_> in the plugin credits
  820. [22:52:57] <DanC> phpht. python-dev not installed on homer.
  821. [22:53:24] <kingryan> DanC, do you run one of these: http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/MergeProgram ?
  822. [22:53:49] <DanC> uh... no, not really. but I use the hg view extension. it's wicked cool.
  823. [22:54:01] <kingryan> view extension? emacs?
  824. [22:54:25] <DanC> no, it uses tk to draw a graph of the version history and let you navigate around point-and-click style
  825. [22:54:36] <kingryan> oh, cool
  826. [22:54:42] <DanC> it's based on some git view tool
  827. [22:54:58] <DanC> (i.e. linux kernel hacker's tool)
  828. [22:57:36] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  829. [22:58:26] <_fil_> RobertBachmann: I don't know the license you're using (I mean, I don't have time to read it properly); is it ok for me to put a GNU/GPL license on the plugin that, basically, exploits the XSLT file (while retaining your license on the XSLT file itself, of course)
  830. [22:58:28] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
  831. [22:58:47] <_fil_> or should I license the plugin with the same license?
  832. [22:58:50] <DanC> hmm... I guess I'll use dm93.org for today; one nice thing about hg is that moving is pretty painless.
  833. [22:59:29] <kingryan> I think I can dig this (hg, that is)
  834. [22:59:48] <briansuda> my commit keeps "transaction Abort"ing
  835. [23:02:49] <DanC> ok, I did wget on xhtml2vcard.xsl and uri.xsl and committed and pushed to dm93.org. see http://dm93.org:8000/
  836. [23:03:22] <DanC> transaction abort? hmm.. is there a python traceback?
  837. [23:03:33] * DanC doesn't recall seeing that
  838. [23:04:06] <briansuda> i commit and it opens VI i :wq and it says "Transaction Abort!" "Rollback completed"
  839. [23:04:14] <briansuda> let me restart and see - brb
  840. [23:04:20] <DanC> did you put anything in the changelog?
  841. [23:04:29] <DanC> I suppose that if you don't, it thinks you didn't mean to commit
  842. [23:04:44] * DanC usually does: hg commit -m 'blah blah'
  843. [23:04:52] <DanC> or I use an emacs mode
  844. [23:05:31] <DanC> I really like mercurial.el , though I sometimes forget to set my PATH right before starting emacs, and I get hosed.
  845. [23:07:23] <RobertBachmann> _fil_, the license should be compatible with the GPL http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#GPLCompatibleLicenses
  846. [23:07:25] * DanC kills http://dm93.org:8000/ for a minute...
  847. [23:07:28] <_fil_> great
  848. [23:09:13] <RobertBachmann> The FSF links to http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231 while hAtom2Atom links to an older version: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/copyright-software-19980720, but that shouldn't
  849. [23:09:13] <RobertBachmann> be a problem in your case.
  850. [23:09:21] * DanC restarts http://dm93.org:8000/
  851. [23:14:00] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  852. [23:18:18] <kingryan> nice `hg merge` pulls up up FileMerge.app
  853. [23:20:07] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  854. [23:20:16] <DanC> so... any other hg peers available?
  855. [23:20:22] * DanC is headed out in a few minutes
  856. [23:20:33] <kingryan> I'll get one setup on mf.org
  857. [23:20:38] <kingryan> and I have one setup locally
  858. [23:20:46] * LTjake_ (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  859. [23:21:12] <DanC> hg supports rename and move and such... but there are probably directory-structure discussions to have.
  860. [23:21:23] <DanC> tests in the same repository? different repository? etc.
  861. [23:21:53] <DanC> for reference, my repository starts with: changeset 0: 5fe0513475fb
  862. [23:22:13] <DanC> (no matter where I move it, that should stay the same.)
  863. [23:25:19] <DanC> ok, http://dm93.org:8000/ seems to be still running, after I logged out.
  864. [23:27:14] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
  865. [23:27:15] <kingryan> cool
  866. [23:27:23] <kingryan> I dunno re directory naming
  867. [23:27:31] <briansuda> i'll test a few more things tonight clean-up my directory
  868. [23:27:35] <kingryan> we might as well put the code and tests in the same repo
  869. [23:27:52] <briansuda> do we want to split the repo for each MF?
  870. [23:28:02] <briansuda> or by implementation?
  871. [23:28:36] <kingryan> by mf, 'cause the implementations of a given mf will invariably share code
  872. [23:28:48] <kingryan> (for example, xslt's)
  873. [23:29:03] <briansuda> that's fine, i just wanted to ask
  874. [23:29:19] <DanC> ah... got python-dev on homer, so now I have another peer: http://homer.w3.org:8123/
  875. [23:30:20] <DanC> I guess I prefer one repository for all the code, until we find a reason to do otherwise. But I don't feel strongly.
  876. [23:31:36] <DanC> note the friendly rss buttons :)
  877. [23:32:06] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  878. [23:32:21] * DanC takes http://dm93.org:8000/ down in favor of http://homer.w3.org:8123/
  879. [23:32:23] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N151P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  880. [23:32:45] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  881. [23:37:06] <jibot> WildFox is Mr. KDOM. Co-author of kdom, ksvg and kcanvas.
  882. [23:40:50] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  883. [23:45:44] <DanC> I sent mail to mf-dev about this hg stuff
  884. [23:45:48] <DanC> I'm late for dinner now.
  885. [23:45:55] <kingryan> ok, bye DanC
  886. [23:46:00] <DanC> kingryan, same bat time next week?
  887. [23:46:12] <kingryan> not next week, but usually
  888. [23:46:16] <DanC> cool.
  889. [23:46:25] <kingryan> (hence the reason I told you no to make it recurring :D)
  890. [23:46:39] <DanC> :)
  891. [23:54:11] <kingryan> I'm at http://www.umbriacom.com/aaai2006_weblog_symposium/ next week
  892. [23:55:25] <kingryan> so, I won't be around on wednesday

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