IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:01:12] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [00:03:39] <jibot>
evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
- [00:03:59] <evanpro>
TA-DAAAAAAA
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- [00:09:44] <evanpro>
Man, I'm gonna go microformats nuts soon
- [00:09:57] <evanpro>
I wonder if MediaWiki table-of-contents should be xoxo, for example
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- [00:20:34] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5704 * Brian * (+472) Open Questions -
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- [01:02:50] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [01:16:22] <bretonslivka>
I likes me the microformats
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- [01:26:29] <bretonslivka>
It got me to investigate all sorts of wonderful technologies and ideas that have been eating up my time like pacman eats dots. xslt, grddl, rdf, rest
- [01:30:43] <briansuda>
it is a never ending list!
- [01:34:50] <bretonslivka>
The one that's got me obsessed at the moment is Collection Oriented Programming
- [01:39:43] <evanpro>
?
- [01:39:48] <evanpro>
I haven't heard that one
- [01:39:58] <evanpro>
Does it involve collecting consulting fees?
- [01:43:05] <evanpro>
Ah
- [01:43:23] <bretonslivka>
Well it seems to take some of the criticisms of OOP
- [01:43:29] <evanpro>
Now I've spend 4 minutes looking at collection-oriented-programming
- [01:43:49] <evanpro>
I'm not sure I get the appeal
- [01:44:40] <bretonslivka>
well the idea is that the RDBMS model for data doesn't fit neatly into the OOP model of data
- [01:44:57] <bretonslivka>
so it's an approach that models RDBMS like data management directly into the language
- [01:45:09] <bretonslivka>
http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/top.htm
- [01:46:24] <bretonslivka>
so wheras proceedural programming favors a sort of vertical approach to code organization, with case switching...
- [01:46:58] <bretonslivka>
and oop takes a horizontal approach with data sharing space with functions, and cases being handled by inheritance..
- [01:47:19] <bretonslivka>
table oriented programming combines the two into a 2D table
- [01:49:45] <bretonslivka>
But in any case, it's an intereseting idea I've run across and I'm currently evaluating how useful it could be in practical usage.
- [01:50:44] <bretonslivka>
particularly since many websites are so database oriented I try to find any approach that makes dealing with DB's easier
- [01:51:44] <evanpro>
yes
- [01:52:38] <evanpro>
Web sites depending on a hierarchical data format (SGML, and usually XML) that is topographically different from both objects and tables
- [01:54:20] <bretonslivka>
One idea i've been thinking about rather loosely, is that RelaxNG potentially is a very good model for relational database models.
- [01:54:28] <bretonslivka>
particularly normalized ones..
- [01:56:39] <bretonslivka>
but I haven't delved into much deeper detail than that abstract thought
- [01:56:47] <bretonslivka>
it could be disastrously wrong
- [01:58:27] <bretonslivka>
Aside from the oneormore and zeroormore nodes being cabable of determining directly where an xml model can be split off into a seperate table with a foreign key.
- [01:58:47] <karlUshi>
bretonslivka: how do you map the "relational" (graph) part of RDBMS with an XML/RNG Schema.
- [02:02:20] <bretonslivka>
Well like I said I hadn't really thought about it much deeper than a very abstract idea about using relaxNG as a database specification language.
- [02:02:28] <karlUshi>
bretonslivka: food for thoughts - http://www.dehora.net/journal/2005/12/rdf_and_db_schema_versioning.html
- [02:02:59] <bretonslivka>
As far as relationships go I thought about it as simply taking recurring elements (oneormore,zeroormore in relaxng) and mapping them to dependancies
- [02:03:18] <bretonslivka>
along with deeper levels of heirarchy
- [02:03:38] <bretonslivka>
essentially ensuring a properly normalized DB structure every time.
- [02:04:18] <bretonslivka>
I'm sure there are stumbling blocks in there somewhere, but I thought it would be an interesting mental excercise to find them
- [02:04:30] <karlUshi>
yes certainly
- [02:04:38] <karlUshi>
might be worthwhile to explore
- [02:06:33] <karlUshi>
http://www.relaxer.org/doc/refman/1.0/html/refman_p1_c4_s4_en.html#doc2_884
- [02:11:17] <bretonslivka>
But the real reason top fascinates me is because it is easier to manage metadata about a set of objects.
- [02:11:45] <bretonslivka>
that is, easier to manage in a table than as a series of objects in a flat text file
- [02:12:21] <bretonslivka>
In light of technologies such as spotlight
- [02:12:28] <bretonslivka>
and the vaporware WinFS
- [02:12:52] <bretonslivka>
where metadata based searches drastically increase the functionality of a system.
- [02:13:14] <karlUshi>
yep
- [02:16:46] <bretonslivka>
particularly looking at the source code for a lot of opensource web apps, like textpattern.. the vast list of functions makes the idea of just querying for a function
- [02:16:52] <bretonslivka>
rather than searching a huge textfile for it
- [02:16:59] <bretonslivka>
the idea appeals to me a bit
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- [02:32:16] <bretonslivka>
similarly I'm also exploring the ideas behind rest to implement a sort of SQL light using pseudo http
- [02:32:28] <bretonslivka>
and perhaps eventually full on http/webdav for db manipulation
- [02:33:08] <bretonslivka>
SQL language is something I find particularly annoying and if I could accomplish the same basic things with http style requests, I think that would be tops
- [02:33:22] <bretonslivka>
the thing I haven't worked out is joins
- [02:38:56] <bretonslivka>
There are already plenty of URL schemes for accessing DB's, but they typically only go so far as providing enough information to connect. I haven't found an example that uses a URL to represent a specific row, or cell on a table
- [02:39:40] <bretonslivka>
this is all pretty OT though, i'm afraid
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- [02:45:44] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [02:49:05] <KevinMarks>
well, it fits microformats-rest maybe
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- [03:14:55] <DanC>
bretonslivka, SPARQL gives a way to make SQL queries with URIs.
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- [03:57:14] <bretonslivka>
Hrmn..
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- [04:23:38] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [04:34:16] <bretonslivka>
Looking through the SPARQL spec, I am not seeing such a scheme.
- [04:41:27] <bretonslivka>
Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place, or there's been some other such misunderstanding
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- [04:56:13] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [05:04:21] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [06:00:42] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [06:25:55] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5705 * DrBrain * (+88) New Example, rubyholic.com -
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- [07:21:30] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [13:35:55] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [14:20:15] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [14:20:15] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [16:25:29] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [17:53:27] <jibot>
tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
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- [18:14:35] <bretonslivka>
Well, I guess it isn't that shocking, but a bit amusing
- [18:15:00] <bretonslivka>
you investigate something you're doing hard enough, and eventually you run across someone that's already done it
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- [18:16:44] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [18:18:30] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [18:20:27] <bretonslivka>
though I think it can be improved.
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- [18:41:55] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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- [19:21:18] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5706 * RobertBachmann * (+138) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
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- [20:25:40] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [20:35:35] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [20:42:27] <bretonslivka>
I am excited about REST
- [20:44:08] <bewest>
bretonslivka: you are an excited guy, eh?
- [20:44:11] <bewest>
:-)
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- [21:03:14] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [21:33:13] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=5707 * RyanKing * (+5) using an h1 to clean up the TOC
- [21:40:50] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5708 * RyanKing * (+1) Sample vCard - adding slash to end of URI, to match its counterpart
- [21:43:19] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-150-136-165.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [21:43:44] * DanC tunes in, wondering what kingryan is up to
- [21:44:00] <kingryan>
hi, I'm working on the test suite
- [21:44:26] <DanC>
speaking of which... I saw you checked in a bunch of stuff from the "wild". Did you check the licenses of all that stuff?
- [21:44:45] <kingryan>
no, I didn't
- [21:44:50] <kingryan>
I need to, though
- [21:45:14] <DanC>
yeah, I gotta be kinda careful about that sort of thing
- [21:45:28] <kingryan>
yeah, I thought about that just before I checked it in
- [21:46:18] * DanC wonders how much of it has rel="license" ... considers an automated check...
- [21:50:23] <DanC>
oh... speaking of licensing, the linux kernel and such have these elaborate signed-off stuff... I noticed you put a URL by your name in the author thingy... if that has hCard info, we can encourage/require contributors to provide an email address in their hcard, and to make some sort of licensing statement on their uf-contributor-persona page.
- [21:50:48] <kingryan>
that'd be cool
- [21:51:03] <kingryan>
mine does have hcard info in it
- [21:51:17] <DanC>
goodness... changeset 63: 6e36d41b4c16 you've been quite busy!
- [21:51:29] <kingryan>
yeah
- [21:51:34] <kingryan>
lotsa little changesets
- [21:52:04] <DanC>
hg encourages that, since you can commit locally and then push later. I kinda like it.
- [21:53:51] <kingryan>
yeah
- [21:54:05] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2471P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
- [21:54:13] <kingryan>
plus the changes I've been doing are little, lotsa white space cleanup and such so that the tests can be run easily with diff
- [21:56:41] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [21:58:35] <DanC>
hmm... I see .pl and .rb code supplementing the test data. I lean toward python, myself. Maybe this will be my tipping point to learn ruby
- [22:00:12] <DanC>
how many of these are xml-wf? looks like a little over half
- [22:00:43] <DanC>
are hCard consumers supposed to grok drek HTML? hmm.
- [22:01:54] <DanC>
from-wild-04.html looks like it's trying pretty hard to be real XHTML but didn't quite make it.
- [22:02:09] <DanC>
from-wild-04.html:90:307: mismatched tag
- [22:03:09] * DanC realizes committing a change would be creating a derivative work... checks for license... finds none... thinks about maybe using one with a more clear license...
- [22:03:56] <DanC>
just two missing </p> tags
- [22:04:07] <kingryan>
I'm not sure what to do with these yet
- [22:04:19] <kingryan>
I've commited them just so I don't lose track of them
- [22:04:53] <kingryan>
I'd prefer to do ruby code for all the suplimentary stuff, but I've done some perl, just as a LCD
- [22:05:08] <DanC>
LCD?
- [22:05:26] <DanC>
least common denominator. ah.
- [22:05:40] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:05:47] <kingryan>
I assume everyone's got perl installed
- [22:05:59] <kingryan>
at least everyone who'd be working on this kinda stuff
- [22:06:24] <DanC>
I have more experience with perl than ruby... but it's given me a bad taste. (I still have my perl 3 reference card ... Rev 3.0.18.1)
- [22:06:42] <DanC>
heh copyright date is 1989
- [22:07:37] <DanC>
my perl knowledge is sorta frozen about there. So I can write crappy perl code like anybody else. But I don't know how to do modern collaborative software engineering with perl.
- [22:08:31] <kingryan>
I'm not sure anyone does
- [22:09:26] <kingryan>
these are just little scripts, anyway
- [22:09:27] <DanC>
well, there's all that CPAN code with modules and OOP and other perl5 magic. much of it seems to be reasonably well engineered.
- [22:09:45] <DanC>
but yeah... for <100 line scripts, perl works.
- [22:10:25] <DanC>
I used to routinely start in perl, get to the 100 line point, and then start over in python. Then 100 went to 50, and lately I start even the most trivial things in python.
- [22:10:46] <DanC>
I still use perl for one-liner command-line deelies.
- [22:12:31] * DanC pulls out his worlds-crappiest xml parser in perl to check the rel-license stuff... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/toXML.pl
- [22:12:51] <DanC>
oops.. that's not it... hm...
- [22:18:08] * dchud (n=dchud@sildin.med.yale.edu) Quit ("Leaving")
- [22:21:32] * DanC finds it.. http://dm93.org/2005/0501mva/movieIndex.py
- [22:35:02] <mfbot>
[[rest/opacity]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=5709 * DrErnie * (+363) Final Comment By Ernie -
- [22:40:38] <DanC>
connolly@dirk:~/mf-hg/tests/hcalendar$ python ../bin/check_licenses.py *.html
- [22:40:38] <DanC>
from-wild-13.html /midcom-permalink-efc0f1058f661b2f8b765bbb46f9508b
- [22:40:38] <DanC>
from-wild-14.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
- [22:40:53] <DanC>
connolly@dirk:~/mf-hg/tests/hcard$ python ../bin/check_licenses.py *.html
- [22:40:53] <DanC>
from-wild-00.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/
- [22:40:53] <DanC>
from-wild-00.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/
- [22:40:53] <DanC>
from-wild-02.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
- [22:40:53] <DanC>
from-wild-06.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
- [22:40:54] <DanC>
from-wild-19.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
- [22:40:56] <DanC>
from-wild-26.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/
- [22:41:42] <DanC>
so 8 files have rel="license" links, 7 of them clearly to CC licenses
- [22:43:01] <kingryan>
cool
- [22:43:38] <kingryan>
we don't neccesarily need to use these documents, just need to test the techniques they use
- [22:46:31] <DanC>
right
- [22:48:26] * DanC commits, pushes check_licenses.py in case anybody else wants to join the fun
- [22:48:51] <kingryan>
cool
- [22:49:01] <kingryan>
oh, and what fun it is!
- [22:49:03] <DanC>
maybe I'll rewrite it in .rb or .pl next
- [22:49:03] <kingryan>
:D
- [22:49:59] <DanC>
coincidence? it's exactly 100 lines, including unit tests and copyright license.
- [22:50:21] <kingryan>
nice
- [22:54:24] <DanC>
"Did I mention that SxSW rocks? Those fools who left after Interactive don’t know what they’re missing." well, I knew pretty damn well what I was missing; but duty called.
- [22:58:29] <KevinMarks>
I can help wiht python...
- [22:58:53] <KevinMarks>
also markp has some python microfrmat parsing code
- [23:07:09] * DanC realizes he has descended to blog-reading-mode and that family-time is here
- [23:08:52] <KevinMarks>
blog-reading counts as a day job for me
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karlUshi is karlcow
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