IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:12] * karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-246-59.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:01:12] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  3. [00:03:39] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  4. [00:03:39] <jibot> evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
  5. [00:03:59] <evanpro> TA-DAAAAAAA
  6. [00:04:05] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  7. [00:09:44] <evanpro> Man, I'm gonna go microformats nuts soon
  8. [00:09:57] <evanpro> I wonder if MediaWiki table-of-contents should be xoxo, for example
  9. [00:12:38] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  11. [00:20:34] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5704 * Brian * (+472) Open Questions -
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  19. [01:02:50] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  23. [01:16:22] <bretonslivka> I likes me the microformats
  24. [01:24:30] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  25. [01:26:29] <bretonslivka> It got me to investigate all sorts of wonderful technologies and ideas that have been eating up my time like pacman eats dots. xslt, grddl, rdf, rest
  26. [01:30:43] <briansuda> it is a never ending list!
  27. [01:34:50] <bretonslivka> The one that's got me obsessed at the moment is Collection Oriented Programming
  28. [01:39:43] <evanpro> ?
  29. [01:39:48] <evanpro> I haven't heard that one
  30. [01:39:58] <evanpro> Does it involve collecting consulting fees?
  31. [01:43:05] <evanpro> Ah
  32. [01:43:23] <bretonslivka> Well it seems to take some of the criticisms of OOP
  33. [01:43:29] <evanpro> Now I've spend 4 minutes looking at collection-oriented-programming
  34. [01:43:49] <evanpro> I'm not sure I get the appeal
  35. [01:44:40] <bretonslivka> well the idea is that the RDBMS model for data doesn't fit neatly into the OOP model of data
  36. [01:44:57] <bretonslivka> so it's an approach that models RDBMS like data management directly into the language
  37. [01:45:09] <bretonslivka> http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/top.htm
  38. [01:46:24] <bretonslivka> so wheras proceedural programming favors a sort of vertical approach to code organization, with case switching...
  39. [01:46:58] <bretonslivka> and oop takes a horizontal approach with data sharing space with functions, and cases being handled by inheritance..
  40. [01:47:19] <bretonslivka> table oriented programming combines the two into a 2D table
  41. [01:49:45] <bretonslivka> But in any case, it's an intereseting idea I've run across and I'm currently evaluating how useful it could be in practical usage.
  42. [01:50:44] <bretonslivka> particularly since many websites are so database oriented I try to find any approach that makes dealing with DB's easier
  43. [01:51:44] <evanpro> yes
  44. [01:52:38] <evanpro> Web sites depending on a hierarchical data format (SGML, and usually XML) that is topographically different from both objects and tables
  45. [01:54:20] <bretonslivka> One idea i've been thinking about rather loosely, is that RelaxNG potentially is a very good model for relational database models.
  46. [01:54:28] <bretonslivka> particularly normalized ones..
  47. [01:56:39] <bretonslivka> but I haven't delved into much deeper detail than that abstract thought
  48. [01:56:47] <bretonslivka> it could be disastrously wrong
  49. [01:58:27] <bretonslivka> Aside from the oneormore and zeroormore nodes being cabable of determining directly where an xml model can be split off into a seperate table with a foreign key.
  50. [01:58:47] <karlUshi> bretonslivka: how do you map the "relational" (graph) part of RDBMS with an XML/RNG Schema.
  51. [02:02:20] <bretonslivka> Well like I said I hadn't really thought about it much deeper than a very abstract idea about using relaxNG as a database specification language.
  52. [02:02:28] <karlUshi> bretonslivka: food for thoughts - http://www.dehora.net/journal/2005/12/rdf_and_db_schema_versioning.html
  53. [02:02:59] <bretonslivka> As far as relationships go I thought about it as simply taking recurring elements (oneormore,zeroormore in relaxng) and mapping them to dependancies
  54. [02:03:18] <bretonslivka> along with deeper levels of heirarchy
  55. [02:03:38] <bretonslivka> essentially ensuring a properly normalized DB structure every time.
  56. [02:04:18] <bretonslivka> I'm sure there are stumbling blocks in there somewhere, but I thought it would be an interesting mental excercise to find them
  57. [02:04:30] <karlUshi> yes certainly
  58. [02:04:38] <karlUshi> might be worthwhile to explore
  59. [02:06:33] <karlUshi> http://www.relaxer.org/doc/refman/1.0/html/refman_p1_c4_s4_en.html#doc2_884
  60. [02:11:17] <bretonslivka> But the real reason top fascinates me is because it is easier to manage metadata about a set of objects.
  61. [02:11:45] <bretonslivka> that is, easier to manage in a table than as a series of objects in a flat text file
  62. [02:12:21] <bretonslivka> In light of technologies such as spotlight
  63. [02:12:28] <bretonslivka> and the vaporware WinFS
  64. [02:12:52] <bretonslivka> where metadata based searches drastically increase the functionality of a system.
  65. [02:13:14] <karlUshi> yep
  66. [02:16:46] <bretonslivka> particularly looking at the source code for a lot of opensource web apps, like textpattern.. the vast list of functions makes the idea of just querying for a function
  67. [02:16:52] <bretonslivka> rather than searching a huge textfile for it
  68. [02:16:59] <bretonslivka> the idea appeals to me a bit
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  71. [02:32:16] <bretonslivka> similarly I'm also exploring the ideas behind rest to implement a sort of SQL light using pseudo http
  72. [02:32:28] <bretonslivka> and perhaps eventually full on http/webdav for db manipulation
  73. [02:33:08] <bretonslivka> SQL language is something I find particularly annoying and if I could accomplish the same basic things with http style requests, I think that would be tops
  74. [02:33:22] <bretonslivka> the thing I haven't worked out is joins
  75. [02:38:56] <bretonslivka> There are already plenty of URL schemes for accessing DB's, but they typically only go so far as providing enough information to connect. I haven't found an example that uses a URL to represent a specific row, or cell on a table
  76. [02:39:40] <bretonslivka> this is all pretty OT though, i'm afraid
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  79. [02:45:44] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  80. [02:49:05] <KevinMarks> well, it fits microformats-rest maybe
  81. [02:55:35] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC81FE18.ipt.aol.com) has left #microformats
  82. [03:06:20] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
  83. [03:14:55] <DanC> bretonslivka, SPARQL gives a way to make SQL queries with URIs.
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  87. [03:57:14] <bretonslivka> Hrmn..
  88. [03:59:24] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.7/20051010]")
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  92. [04:23:38] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  93. [04:34:16] <bretonslivka> Looking through the SPARQL spec, I am not seeing such a scheme.
  94. [04:41:27] <bretonslivka> Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place, or there's been some other such misunderstanding
  95. [04:56:13] * Enric (n=Enric@dsl001-150-100.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  96. [04:56:13] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  99. [05:04:21] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  106. [06:00:42] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  107. [06:25:55] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5705 * DrBrain * (+88) New Example, rubyholic.com -
  108. [06:40:16] * karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-246-59.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
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  111. [07:21:30] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  133. [13:35:55] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  136. [14:20:15] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  137. [14:20:15] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  156. [16:25:29] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  164. [17:53:27] <jibot> tara is Miss Rogue and the rogue marketer behind riya and the one blogging at www.horsepigcow.com
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  167. [18:14:35] <bretonslivka> Well, I guess it isn't that shocking, but a bit amusing
  168. [18:15:00] <bretonslivka> you investigate something you're doing hard enough, and eventually you run across someone that's already done it
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  171. [18:16:44] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  174. [18:18:30] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  175. [18:20:27] <bretonslivka> though I think it can be improved.
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  184. [18:41:55] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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  190. [19:21:18] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5706 * RobertBachmann * (+138) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
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  197. [20:25:40] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  202. [20:35:35] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  203. [20:36:50] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-60-40.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  204. [20:42:27] <bretonslivka> I am excited about REST
  205. [20:44:08] <bewest> bretonslivka: you are an excited guy, eh?
  206. [20:44:11] <bewest> :-)
  207. [20:56:14] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
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  212. [21:03:14] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  215. [21:23:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  216. [21:23:27] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  217. [21:23:33] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  218. [21:27:48] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  219. [21:33:13] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=5707 * RyanKing * (+5) using an h1 to clean up the TOC
  220. [21:40:50] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5708 * RyanKing * (+1) Sample vCard - adding slash to end of URI, to match its counterpart
  221. [21:43:19] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-150-136-165.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  222. [21:43:44] * DanC tunes in, wondering what kingryan is up to
  223. [21:44:00] <kingryan> hi, I'm working on the test suite
  224. [21:44:26] <DanC> speaking of which... I saw you checked in a bunch of stuff from the "wild". Did you check the licenses of all that stuff?
  225. [21:44:45] <kingryan> no, I didn't
  226. [21:44:50] <kingryan> I need to, though
  227. [21:45:14] <DanC> yeah, I gotta be kinda careful about that sort of thing
  228. [21:45:28] <kingryan> yeah, I thought about that just before I checked it in
  229. [21:46:18] * DanC wonders how much of it has rel="license" ... considers an automated check...
  230. [21:50:23] <DanC> oh... speaking of licensing, the linux kernel and such have these elaborate signed-off stuff... I noticed you put a URL by your name in the author thingy... if that has hCard info, we can encourage/require contributors to provide an email address in their hcard, and to make some sort of licensing statement on their uf-contributor-persona page.
  231. [21:50:48] <kingryan> that'd be cool
  232. [21:51:03] <kingryan> mine does have hcard info in it
  233. [21:51:17] <DanC> goodness... changeset 63: 6e36d41b4c16 you've been quite busy!
  234. [21:51:29] <kingryan> yeah
  235. [21:51:34] <kingryan> lotsa little changesets
  236. [21:52:04] <DanC> hg encourages that, since you can commit locally and then push later. I kinda like it.
  237. [21:53:51] <kingryan> yeah
  238. [21:54:05] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2471P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  239. [21:54:13] <kingryan> plus the changes I've been doing are little, lotsa white space cleanup and such so that the tests can be run easily with diff
  240. [21:56:41] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  241. [21:58:35] <DanC> hmm... I see .pl and .rb code supplementing the test data. I lean toward python, myself. Maybe this will be my tipping point to learn ruby
  242. [22:00:12] <DanC> how many of these are xml-wf? looks like a little over half
  243. [22:00:43] <DanC> are hCard consumers supposed to grok drek HTML? hmm.
  244. [22:01:54] <DanC> from-wild-04.html looks like it's trying pretty hard to be real XHTML but didn't quite make it.
  245. [22:02:09] <DanC> from-wild-04.html:90:307: mismatched tag
  246. [22:03:09] * DanC realizes committing a change would be creating a derivative work... checks for license... finds none... thinks about maybe using one with a more clear license...
  247. [22:03:56] <DanC> just two missing </p> tags
  248. [22:04:07] <kingryan> I'm not sure what to do with these yet
  249. [22:04:19] <kingryan> I've commited them just so I don't lose track of them
  250. [22:04:53] <kingryan> I'd prefer to do ruby code for all the suplimentary stuff, but I've done some perl, just as a LCD
  251. [22:05:08] <DanC> LCD?
  252. [22:05:26] <DanC> least common denominator. ah.
  253. [22:05:40] <kingryan> yeah
  254. [22:05:47] <kingryan> I assume everyone's got perl installed
  255. [22:05:59] <kingryan> at least everyone who'd be working on this kinda stuff
  256. [22:06:24] <DanC> I have more experience with perl than ruby... but it's given me a bad taste. (I still have my perl 3 reference card ... Rev 3.0.18.1)
  257. [22:06:42] <DanC> heh copyright date is 1989
  258. [22:07:37] <DanC> my perl knowledge is sorta frozen about there. So I can write crappy perl code like anybody else. But I don't know how to do modern collaborative software engineering with perl.
  259. [22:08:31] <kingryan> I'm not sure anyone does
  260. [22:09:26] <kingryan> these are just little scripts, anyway
  261. [22:09:27] <DanC> well, there's all that CPAN code with modules and OOP and other perl5 magic. much of it seems to be reasonably well engineered.
  262. [22:09:45] <DanC> but yeah... for <100 line scripts, perl works.
  263. [22:10:25] <DanC> I used to routinely start in perl, get to the 100 line point, and then start over in python. Then 100 went to 50, and lately I start even the most trivial things in python.
  264. [22:10:46] <DanC> I still use perl for one-liner command-line deelies.
  265. [22:12:31] * DanC pulls out his worlds-crappiest xml parser in perl to check the rel-license stuff... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/toXML.pl
  266. [22:12:51] <DanC> oops.. that's not it... hm...
  267. [22:18:08] * dchud (n=dchud@sildin.med.yale.edu) Quit ("Leaving")
  268. [22:21:32] * DanC finds it.. http://dm93.org/2005/0501mva/movieIndex.py
  269. [22:35:02] <mfbot> [[rest/opacity]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/opacity&diff=0&oldid=5709 * DrErnie * (+363) Final Comment By Ernie -
  270. [22:40:38] <DanC> connolly@dirk:~/mf-hg/tests/hcalendar$ python ../bin/check_licenses.py *.html
  271. [22:40:38] <DanC> from-wild-13.html /midcom-permalink-efc0f1058f661b2f8b765bbb46f9508b
  272. [22:40:38] <DanC> from-wild-14.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
  273. [22:40:53] <DanC> connolly@dirk:~/mf-hg/tests/hcard$ python ../bin/check_licenses.py *.html
  274. [22:40:53] <DanC> from-wild-00.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/
  275. [22:40:53] <DanC> from-wild-00.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/
  276. [22:40:53] <DanC> from-wild-02.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
  277. [22:40:53] <DanC> from-wild-06.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
  278. [22:40:54] <DanC> from-wild-19.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/
  279. [22:40:56] <DanC> from-wild-26.html http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/
  280. [22:41:42] <DanC> so 8 files have rel="license" links, 7 of them clearly to CC licenses
  281. [22:43:01] <kingryan> cool
  282. [22:43:38] <kingryan> we don't neccesarily need to use these documents, just need to test the techniques they use
  283. [22:46:31] <DanC> right
  284. [22:48:26] * DanC commits, pushes check_licenses.py in case anybody else wants to join the fun
  285. [22:48:51] <kingryan> cool
  286. [22:49:01] <kingryan> oh, and what fun it is!
  287. [22:49:03] <DanC> maybe I'll rewrite it in .rb or .pl next
  288. [22:49:03] <kingryan> :D
  289. [22:49:59] <DanC> coincidence? it's exactly 100 lines, including unit tests and copyright license.
  290. [22:50:21] <kingryan> nice
  291. [22:54:24] <DanC> "Did I mention that SxSW rocks? Those fools who left after Interactive don’t know what they’re missing." well, I knew pretty damn well what I was missing; but duty called.
  292. [22:58:29] <KevinMarks> I can help wiht python...
  293. [22:58:53] <KevinMarks> also markp has some python microfrmat parsing code
  294. [23:07:09] * DanC realizes he has descended to blog-reading-mode and that family-time is here
  295. [23:08:52] <KevinMarks> blog-reading counts as a day job for me
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  302. [23:58:20] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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