IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:58] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  2. [00:03:39] <evanpro> oh I've got a fresh one
  3. [00:03:59] <evanpro> I realize I should be putting these on the wiki but my DNS is still screbobbled
  4. [00:04:06] <evanpro> Anyways with rel-tag
  5. [00:04:50] <evanpro> How do you "localise" a tag?
  6. [00:05:19] <evanpro> The spec says that the tag can apply to the page, or to a blog post on the page
  7. [00:06:04] <bretonslivka> what do you mean by what do you mean by "localize" ?
  8. [00:06:11] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  9. [00:06:32] <evanpro> so how do you say that tag 'foo' applies to one blog post and not another?
  10. [00:06:45] <bretonslivka> by including it in the blog post
  11. [00:06:50] <evanpro> If there are multiple posts on the page?
  12. [00:07:02] <bretonslivka> Then there are multiple posts on the page.
  13. [00:07:18] <bretonslivka> the purpose is that if your post ends up on technorati..
  14. [00:07:25] <bretonslivka> then technorati can link back to the blog post
  15. [00:07:44] <bretonslivka> from the tags category
  16. [00:07:46] <evanpro> bretonslivka: so, like, <div>... <a rel="tag" href="http://blah/foo">foo</a></div>
  17. [00:07:57] <evanpro> ohhhh
  18. [00:08:18] <evanpro> I thought the purpose was to make an open standard for tagging
  19. [00:08:34] <bretonslivka> well a bit of that yes
  20. [00:08:38] <bretonslivka> it doesn't HAVE to be technorati
  21. [00:08:43] <evanpro> good
  22. [00:08:57] <evanpro> now, if I'm writing a tags crawler...
  23. [00:09:04] <evanpro> and it reads a page...
  24. [00:09:38] <evanpro> how does it know that a particular tag applies to just one div (or p or whatever) on the page, and not the whole page?
  25. [00:10:55] <evanpro> Or if it's a picture gallery...
  26. [00:11:03] <evanpro> ...how do you associate a tag with a particular picture?
  27. [00:13:07] <bretonslivka> I can't say for certain
  28. [00:13:23] <evanpro> Or let's say you're dealing with my particular problem, which is a page like http://wikitravel.org/en/Minot
  29. [00:13:24] <bretonslivka> but it seems to be enough that the tag simply be in teh same database entry with the post
  30. [00:13:35] <evanpro> bretonslivka: same database entry?
  31. [00:13:52] <bretonslivka> if the tag appears somewhere in the post, then that is enough
  32. [00:14:10] <evanpro> bretonslivka: mmmm-hmmm
  33. [00:14:19] <bretonslivka> when you crawl for pages with tag "books" for instance
  34. [00:14:27] <evanpro> s/pages/things/
  35. [00:14:34] <evanpro> s/things/addressable things/
  36. [00:15:13] <bretonslivka> if you find a page containing a post with tag "books", you link to that page whether there's other posts containing other tags or not
  37. [00:15:29] <evanpro> For example, I want to tag the New China Buffet on http://wikitravel.org/en/Minot with "chinese", "restaurant", "buffet", "mongolian"
  38. [00:15:31] <bretonslivka> though if you're familiar enough with the blogging software you can usually know to just crawl pages with individual posts
  39. [00:16:39] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC8A1D58.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  40. [00:18:00] <evanpro> I think <li id="New_China_Buffet">... <a href="http://wikitravel.org/tags/chinese">chinese</a>, <a href="http://wikitravel.org/tags/buffet">buffet</a>, ...</li> should be the right way to do it
  41. [00:18:16] <evanpro> If it were me...
  42. [00:18:44] <evanpro> I'd say that the nearest enclosing element with an id attribute would be what the tag applies to...
  43. [00:18:49] <bretonslivka> yeah that seems relatively sane, except if you consider pages with more arbitrary uses of id's
  44. [00:19:05] <evanpro> ...and if there's not enclosing attribute with an id, then it applies to the whole page
  45. [00:19:12] <bretonslivka> yeah if you're writing a tag crawler for that wiki, that could work for you...
  46. [00:19:20] <evanpro> Right
  47. [00:19:22] <bretonslivka> but it seems like tags would apply more to the entire page
  48. [00:19:27] <evanpro> ...
  49. [00:19:28] <bretonslivka> rather than individual elements within the page
  50. [00:19:38] <evanpro> or to pictures or blog posts
  51. [00:19:48] <bretonslivka> well with pictures you can usually get to a page
  52. [00:19:53] <evanpro> or restaurants or people or dinosaurs
  53. [00:19:54] <bretonslivka> which is specifically about just the picture
  54. [00:20:00] <bretonslivka> then you tag that page
  55. [00:20:12] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-70-231-152-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
  56. [00:20:14] <evanpro> yeah
  57. [00:20:15] <evanpro> so
  58. [00:20:37] <bretonslivka> in this case you would need a page about just that restaurant
  59. [00:20:46] <evanpro> fuck that
  60. [00:20:51] <evanpro> pardon my french
  61. [00:20:58] <bretonslivka> either that or tag the entire page with chinese buffet
  62. [00:21:07] <bretonslivka> due to its inclusion of content about that
  63. [00:21:11] <evanpro> or you could change rel-tag so you could tag things smaller than a page
  64. [00:21:27] <evanpro> especially things addressable with an URL
  65. [00:21:39] <bretonslivka> the practical effect is not much different from tagging the entire page
  66. [00:21:56] <evanpro> yeah
  67. [00:22:00] <evanpro> I guess I'll bring this up on the wiki
  68. [00:22:36] <bretonslivka> additionally I should bring up that the spec for URL's reserves # for use by a client
  69. [00:22:43] <bretonslivka> so it's not generally applicable to all clients
  70. [00:22:55] <bretonslivka> just graphical web browsers
  71. [00:23:10] <evanpro> it depends on the content
  72. [00:25:19] <bretonslivka> so while # parts are part of the URL spec...
  73. [00:25:33] <bretonslivka> they don't specifically apply to a reference to a specific resource
  74. [00:25:50] <bretonslivka> they only refer to parts interpretable to a client, at the client's whim
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  76. [00:33:45] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=5730 * Evan * (+708) tag for a portion of a page
  77. [00:35:01] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=5731 * Evan * (+9) bold, preposition
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  79. [00:40:02] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=5732 * Evan * (+0) hCard properties - unrecongized -> unrecognized
  80. [00:43:24] <evanpro> bretonslivka: I think in terms of HTML they are well-specified
  81. [00:43:39] <evanpro> And since this microformat is for HTML
  82. [00:43:47] <evanpro> And not, say, PDFs or SVG files
  83. [00:44:05] <evanpro> I think it's pretty fair to say that fragments should be in-bounds
  84. [00:44:14] <bretonslivka> yeah you're probably right. I've just had my head buried in URL specs so I'm slightly biased
  85. [00:45:02] <evanpro> B-)
  86. [00:45:03] <bretonslivka> you do still run into the slight problem of arbitrary fragments.
  87. [00:45:09] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  88. [00:45:24] <bretonslivka> sometimes id's are just used for CSS styling, and thus the nearest containing element may not be an accurate pointer to the relevant content
  89. [00:46:29] <bretonslivka> for instance, the situation where a user creates <div id="tags">
  90. [00:47:03] <bretonslivka> though this is purely theorhetical
  91. [00:47:23] <bretonslivka> I think I would have to actually try it to see how well it works in practicce
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  93. [00:56:21] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  118. [03:55:48] <evanpro> Welp
  119. [03:55:54] <evanpro> http://wikitravel.org/en/Singapore/Sentosa <-- we're getting there
  120. [03:56:10] <evanpro> Tails and X2V kind of barf on the page
  121. [03:56:20] <evanpro> And nobody seems to love the adr
  122. [03:58:04] <evanpro> Nor does anyone seem to pay attention to class="fn org"
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  124. [04:03:29] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=5733 * Evan * (+251) categories and tags
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  132. [05:51:20] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  133. [05:51:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  138. [06:37:21] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  141. [08:23:32] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5734 * Wim Le Page * (+141)
  142. [08:24:58] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=5735 * Wim Le Page * (+1)
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  146. [08:59:15] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  161. [13:51:46] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  170. [14:50:24] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  173. [15:21:25] <mfbot> [[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=5736 * Evan * (+975) parts of a page, link vs. a, Dublin Core
  174. [15:23:16] <mfbot> [[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=5737 * Evan * (+87) link to link types for reference
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  180. [15:44:53] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  181. [15:45:01] <bluesmoon> g'day
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  183. [15:52:26] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  188. [16:31:16] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  191. [16:51:25] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  194. [16:59:34] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  199. [17:16:26] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  203. [17:28:09] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards
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  206. [17:44:20] <evanpro> hmmm
  207. [17:44:26] <evanpro> electronically merging standards
  208. [17:44:30] <evanpro> or e-merging
  209. [17:44:37] <evanpro> a fascinating idea
  210. [17:44:59] <evanpro> there are, after all, far too many standards
  211. [17:45:04] <evanpro> and merging them by hand would be tedious
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  214. [18:37:18] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  215. [18:37:18] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  216. [18:38:15] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Client Quit)
  217. [18:47:30] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  218. [18:53:33] <kingryan> hey DanC
  219. [18:53:35] <kingryan> you about?
  220. [18:53:45] <DanC> depends on what for ;-)
  221. [18:54:09] <kingryan> quick hg question
  222. [18:54:25] <DanC> sure
  223. [18:54:28] <kingryan> I'm trying to push, but I keep getting:
  224. [18:54:29] <kingryan> searching for changes
  225. [18:54:29] <kingryan> abort: push creates new remote branches!
  226. [18:54:29] <kingryan> (did you forget to merge? use push -f to force)
  227. [18:54:46] <kingryan> but hg update -m does nothing
  228. [18:54:54] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-1.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  229. [18:54:54] <kingryan> and pull gives me nothing
  230. [18:54:56] <DanC> known issue. I was just discussing that in #mercurial the other day. work-around: use -f
  231. [18:55:23] <kingryan> ok, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't losing anything with this
  232. [18:56:13] * kingryan just pushed 26 changesets, affecting 95 files :D
  233. [18:56:31] <kingryan> to /tests
  234. [18:56:33] <DanC> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/bts/issue179 Title push creates remote heads without -f
  235. [18:56:42] <DanC> seems to be fixed as of 2006-03-31.08:35:49
  236. [18:58:12] <kingryan> cool
  237. [19:00:20] * DanC is interested to look at all the yummie new bits, but can't justify the time just now...
  238. [19:01:12] <kingryan> a bunch of hcard test cases based on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
  239. [19:06:35] * tara_ (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  240. [19:09:31] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
  241. [19:36:10] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  242. [19:37:27] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  243. [19:37:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  244. [20:10:02] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) Quit ("Mama never loved me")
  245. [20:51:30] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-1.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
  246. [20:57:43] * danath333 (n=some@128-193-139-1.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  247. [20:57:52] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  248. [21:26:26] <kingryan> so, briansuda, you know where the documentation is for the phone number format of vCard?
  249. [21:26:39] <kingryan> it says its based on X.500 phone format, but I cant' find anything
  250. [21:27:13] <briansuda> i have never looked
  251. [21:27:46] <kingryan> the rfc seems to say that there's a standard format:
  252. [21:27:47] <kingryan> "Type special notes: The value of this type is specified in a
  253. [21:27:48] <kingryan> canonical form in order to specify an unambiguous representation of
  254. [21:27:48] <kingryan> the globally unique telephone endpoint. This type is based on the
  255. [21:27:48] <kingryan> X.500 Telephone Number attribute."
  256. [21:28:15] <kingryan> in practice, normalization to this format probably isn't neccessary, but it might be helpful to figure out what that format is
  257. [21:28:16] <briansuda> http://rfc1279.x42.com/
  258. [21:30:26] <briansuda> i'm not sure it is for phone numbers or just for directory structure
  259. [21:31:56] <kingryan> yeah, I don't see phone number formats there
  260. [21:32:59] <briansuda> i am still looking, i have found some stuff...
  261. [21:33:07] <briansuda> http://bgp.potaroo.net/ietf/idref/rfc3687/#page-17
  262. [21:33:12] <briansuda> 3.2.1.2. Telephone Number Matching
  263. [21:33:19] <briansuda> Early editions of X.520 [12] gave the syntax of the telephoneNumber
  264. [21:33:19] <briansuda> attribute as a constrained PrintableString.
  265. [21:35:52] <briansuda> OK, i'm not great at following links from REFs in an RFC, but it looks like phone numbers are of type ASN.1 Type TelephoneNumber
  266. [21:36:05] <briansuda> googling that i find http://asn1.elibel.tm.fr/cgi-bin/oid/display?oid=2.5.4.20&action=display
  267. [21:36:11] <briansuda> which has a sort of regular expression
  268. [21:36:15] <briansuda> {joint-iso-itu-t(2) ds(5) attributeType(4) telephoneNumber(20)}
  269. [21:36:39] <briansuda> which looks like a chr(4) for type and a char(20) for phone
  270. [21:38:29] <briansuda> so i don't think there is a format for (country-code)(city-code)(prefix)(phone-suffix)
  271. [21:38:40] <kingryan> ok, that's what it looks like to me
  272. [21:38:53] <kingryan> so, I guess there isn't really any normalizing we can do in x2v
  273. [21:39:42] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  274. [21:41:32] <briansuda> i don't think so, and besides alot of people might have some fancy TEXT phone, like 1-888-555-HOME or something which we'd want to preserve
  275. [21:42:12] <kingryan> true
  276. [21:46:33] <kingryan> ok, another question, briansuda...
  277. [21:46:42] <kingryan> does x2v handle multiple types on a TEL?
  278. [21:47:03] <briansuda> it should, i can't remember if it was space-seperated or comma-seperated or if it mattered
  279. [21:47:06] <briansuda> but it should
  280. [21:48:12] <kingryan> it's space seperated
  281. [21:49:51] <kingryan> no, its comma seperated
  282. [21:49:58] <kingryan> this should work http://theryanking.com/temp/21-tel.html, I believe
  283. [21:50:09] <kingryan> but it doesn't get all the types on the last number
  284. [21:50:39] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  285. [21:52:26] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-1.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  286. [21:53:05] <briansuda> i will have to look into this, but i THING the problem is that you can only have ONE time, put the class="type" on the UL in stead of each LI
  287. [21:53:17] <briansuda> we might have to look into changing this behavior
  288. [21:53:34] <briansuda> changing it in X2V i mean - not you're behavior!
  289. [21:53:34] <kingryan> hmm, ok
  290. [21:53:49] <kingryan> yeah, I think the way I formulated it should be allowable
  291. [21:54:35] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-150-136-165.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  292. [21:55:41] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  293. [21:56:04] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-70-231-152-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  294. [21:57:11] <briansuda> you are probably correct, we should support it, can you make a test case for both instances, class="type" on the UL and on the LIs and i'll see what i can do to make X2V conform
  295. [21:57:15] <kingryan> have we discussed multiple types before?
  296. [21:57:31] <briansuda> yes, but not on different elements like you class="value"
  297. [21:57:39] <kingryan> ok
  298. [21:57:47] <briansuda> nickname follows this trend, so there is precident
  299. [21:58:09] <kingryan> same with additional-name and the other n sub-properties, no?
  300. [21:58:15] <briansuda> if you put it on the UL it gets all the items, or you can put it on each (or atleast i think that's how it used to work?)
  301. [21:58:39] <briansuda> yes about n-sub props, but some you can only have one of (only one FIRST name)
  302. [21:58:56] <briansuda> this change will also effect ADR's type as well
  303. [22:00:19] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-69-107-83-35.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  304. [22:00:55] * danath333 (n=some@128-193-139-1.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  305. [22:00:59] <kingryan> ok, I updated that file to have both versions
  306. [22:02:58] <briansuda> ok, i'll see what i can do, should we put something on the brainstorming, or issues page? just to let other implementers know about it.
  307. [22:04:15] <kingryan> sure
  308. [22:04:18] * yamico_ (n=lk@213-182-115-14.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
  309. [22:05:43] <kingryan> perhaps it should be in the hcard-parsing page?
  310. [22:08:50] <briansuda> that would be a better place. i'll add info about it this weekend when i get X2V up to spec
  311. [22:11:11] <bretonslivka> X2V is so exciting
  312. [22:11:17] <bretonslivka> I am very excited about x2v
  313. [22:11:50] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-150-155-111.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  314. [22:15:14] <kingryan> I just send a note to the list about it, too briansuda
  315. [22:15:24] <kingryan> bretonslivka, you seem to be excited about everything :D
  316. [22:20:43] * yamico (n=lk@213-182-116-231.teleos-web.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  317. [22:22:13] * kingryan just realized that most of timezones on http://microformats.org/wiki/irc are now wrong
  318. [22:22:23] * kingryan curses daylight savings time
  319. [22:22:40] <bretonslivka> Curse benjamin franklin!
  320. [22:22:59] * kingryan thinks he should change all the american tz's on that page
  321. [22:23:49] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-69-107-83-35.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  322. [22:24:33] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  323. [22:25:29] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=5738 * RyanKing * (+102) DST shift
  324. [22:27:36] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  325. [22:45:47] * yamico (n=lk@213-182-115-14.teleos-web.de) has joined #microformats
  326. [22:54:48] <Snowden> would it be cool if there was a Microformat search engine just to see whats out there
  327. [22:55:26] <Snowden> has someone already written some kind of bot trolling the net or maybe a site using a search engine API to search for Microformats?
  328. [22:59:25] <Snowden> can you use the google/yahoo/etc... API to search source
  329. [22:59:40] <Snowden> ?
  330. [23:00:00] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  331. [23:01:23] * yamico_ (n=lk@213-182-115-14.teleos-web.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. [23:02:01] <kingryan> I think scott reynen wrote such a program
  333. [23:04:26] <kingryan> http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/
  334. [23:12:41] <Snowden> thz
  335. [23:12:43] <Snowden> thx
  336. [23:13:50] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@adsl-70-231-152-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
  337. [23:20:37] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  338. [23:33:36] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC896327.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  339. [23:33:36] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  340. [23:52:13] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")

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