IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:58] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-141-70.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
  2. [00:21:22] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  3. [00:23:17] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
  4. [01:00:14] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC99AFAE.ipt.aol.com) Quit ()
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  6. [01:09:01] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
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  15. [02:08:39] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  16. [02:08:52] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC839DCB.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  17. [02:08:53] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  18. [02:16:01] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  20. [02:48:38] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit ("->home")
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  25. [03:12:34] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  26. [03:12:34] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  27. [03:16:47] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  28. [03:24:11] * amette (n=amette@p54B8A186.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  29. [03:25:47] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  30. [03:26:12] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
  31. [03:41:16] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-82-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  32. [03:53:57] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC839DCB.ipt.aol.com) has left #microformats
  33. [04:16:09] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
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  36. [04:20:28] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  37. [04:25:33] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("g'night")
  38. [04:54:02] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  39. [04:54:03] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  40. [05:03:17] * evanpro_ (n=evanpro@207.134.56.158) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  41. [05:16:26] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-82-93.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [05:39:06] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  43. [06:00:44] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-95-209.client.stsn.net) has joined #microformats
  44. [06:00:45] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  45. [06:00:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  46. [06:01:45] * jbergius (n=jbergius@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  47. [06:21:20] * danath333 (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
  48. [06:26:20] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  49. [06:29:12] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  50. [06:34:28] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  51. [06:35:14] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  52. [07:04:39] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  53. [07:04:39] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  54. [07:34:24] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  55. [07:51:58] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
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  57. [08:12:10] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) Quit ("Client exiting")
  58. [08:21:39] * _fil__ (n=fil@www.rezo.net) Quit ("leaving")
  59. [08:29:32] * Kura (n=Kura@office.mediadesign.nl) has joined #microformats
  60. [08:38:01] * rawtext_ (n=rawtext@pool-129-44-186-53.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
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  65. [09:38:57] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-95-209.client.stsn.net) Quit ()
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  89. [11:07:45] * amette_ is now known as amette
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  93. [11:18:41] * Dougie (n=Doug@shadow.idmf.net) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  94. [11:18:59] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
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  99. [11:39:02] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5836 * DavidJanes * (+292) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
  100. [11:39:53] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5837 * DavidJanes * (+69) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
  101. [11:41:25] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5838 * DavidJanes * (+117) Feed <i>permalink</i> (atom:<i>permalink</i>) -
  102. [11:41:40] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5839 * DavidJanes * (+2) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
  103. [11:41:52] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5840 * DavidJanes * (+11) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
  104. [11:42:08] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5841 * DavidJanes * (+11) Feed <i>permalink</i> (atom:<i>permalink</i>) -
  105. [12:10:16] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  106. [12:30:46] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  107. [12:43:16] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
  108. [13:05:12] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-82-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  109. [13:05:12] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  110. [13:12:09] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  111. [13:27:09] * jbergius (n=jbergius@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  112. [13:31:44] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  113. [13:31:44] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  114. [13:33:07] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-95-209.client.stsn.net) has joined #microformats
  115. [13:33:08] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  116. [13:33:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  117. [13:46:23] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  118. [14:02:08] * _pecus_ (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  119. [14:04:14] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  120. [14:05:57] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  121. [14:05:57] <jibot> evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
  122. [14:24:52] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  123. [14:24:53] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  124. [14:26:21] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-95-209.client.stsn.net) Quit ()
  125. [14:39:41] * _pecus_ (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
  126. [14:40:16] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-141-70.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  127. [14:55:38] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-141-70.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
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  129. [14:58:30] * dkubb (n=dankubb@207-194-143-166.dsl.axion.net) has joined #microformats
  130. [15:10:07] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-82-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  131. [15:14:20] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  132. [15:14:20] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  133. [15:19:45] * _pecus_ (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) has joined #microformats
  134. [15:20:54] <mfbot> [[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=5842 * Brian * (+544) this year -
  135. [15:49:36] <mfbot> [[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=5843 * Brian * (+21) this year -
  136. [15:52:36] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  137. [16:00:22] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.109) has joined #microformats
  138. [16:00:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  139. [16:00:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  140. [16:05:22] * dkubb (n=dankubb@207-194-143-166.dsl.axion.net) has left #microformats
  141. [16:26:48] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  142. [16:26:48] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  143. [16:27:29] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
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  148. [16:53:23] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  149. [16:53:23] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  150. [17:00:06] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  153. [17:14:44] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.109) Quit ()
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  156. [17:22:08] <trovster> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/127517371/?#comment72057594105423269 - does Tantek ever do any work. All the photos I see are from parties or planes!
  157. [17:26:04] <limbo_> parties ARE work.
  158. [17:26:54] <trovster> Oh, forgive me!
  159. [17:27:30] <limbo_> that's how we do business in time of bubble :)
  160. [17:37:25] <trovster> Bubble, yey.
  161. [17:37:46] * rawtext_ (n=rawtext@pool-129-44-186-53.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  162. [17:37:51] <trovster> Has Tantek got one of those bubble thingies, he should start blowing them at the party.
  163. [17:40:02] <trovster> http://www.trovster.com/microformats.phps what do you think ?
  164. [17:46:07] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  165. [17:47:38] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  166. [17:58:54] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  167. [18:01:32] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  168. [18:16:14] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  169. [18:16:14] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  170. [18:25:16] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  171. [18:25:16] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  172. [18:36:00] * pnhChris is now known as pnhBusy
  173. [18:46:08] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  174. [18:46:48] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  175. [18:46:49] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  176. [18:46:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  182. [19:27:53] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5844 * RobertBachmann * (+134) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
  183. [19:53:49] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-141-70.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  184. [19:58:17] * danath333 (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
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  186. [20:12:49] * badd (i=ppopov@debian.rc.edu) Quit (Excess Flood)
  187. [20:14:41] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-141-70.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  188. [20:15:30] * badd (i=ppopov@debian.rc.edu) has joined #microformats
  189. [20:21:36] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
  190. [20:29:31] * jbergius (n=jbergius@a80-186-18-80.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #microformats
  191. [20:34:59] * danath333 (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
  192. [20:35:31] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  193. [20:46:39] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  194. [20:46:39] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  195. [20:47:46] <mfbot> [[workofart-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5845 * TimG * (+1682) Discussion -
  196. [20:51:02] <mfbot> [[workofart-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-formats&diff=0&oldid=5846 * TimG * (+63) Formats -
  197. [20:52:48] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.95) has joined #microformats
  198. [20:52:48] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  199. [20:53:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  200. [21:14:16] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) has joined #microformats
  201. [21:14:16] <jibot> DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
  202. [21:14:49] * DanC tunes in, prepares for another avalanche of changesets from kingryan
  203. [21:15:59] <DanC> indeed, I'm current thru 96:841d2fe8afdc and he's at 133:526bbe574582
  204. [21:16:39] <DanC> Ryan, I saw a few comments about "another one of Dan's changes, I shouldn't have to ci this, should I?"
  205. [21:16:54] <DanC> indeed, what you need to do is `hg merge`
  206. [21:17:06] <DanC> jibot, seen kingryan ?
  207. [21:21:34] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  208. [21:27:44] <mfbot> [[rest/urls]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/urls&diff=0&oldid=5847 * DrErnie * (+144) Notes - rest/opacity
  209. [21:28:10] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
  210. [21:28:35] <mfbot> [[rest]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest&diff=0&oldid=5848 * DrErnie * (+90) URLs -
  211. [21:30:04] * danja (n=danja@host15-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
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  214. [21:43:59] * pnhBusy is now known as pnhChris
  215. [21:46:51] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  216. [21:49:36] <kingryan> hey DanC
  217. [21:49:41] <kingryan> sorry, in a meeting then lunch
  218. [21:49:50] <kingryan> as you noticed, I pushed a bunch of changesets the other day
  219. [21:49:54] <DanC> np
  220. [21:49:58] <kingryan> but, I'm missing something with hg
  221. [21:50:07] <kingryan> I've been doing pull, update, push
  222. [21:50:16] <kingryan> but I still get branch merge warnings
  223. [21:50:21] <kingryan> and have to ci your changes
  224. [21:50:43] * kingryan doesn't see 'merge' in the hg help
  225. [21:50:47] <kingryan> only 'update'
  226. [21:51:01] <DanC> hmm
  227. [21:51:06] <kingryan> I believe there's an update -m with is 'merge', no?
  228. [21:51:18] <DanC> it's probably a synonym
  229. [21:51:26] <DanC> and the default help only has the un-scary options ;-)
  230. [21:51:36] <kingryan> ok
  231. [21:51:54] <kingryan> ok, maybe I just forgot to merge last time
  232. [21:52:06] <kingryan> I'm not quite used to this model of cooperation
  233. [21:53:20] <DanC> yeah; it's new to me too
  234. [21:53:52] <mfbot> [[rest/property]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/property * DrErnie * (+2318)
  235. [21:54:28] <mfbot> [[rest/property]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/property&diff=0&oldid=5849 * DrErnie * (+57) Open Issues -
  236. [21:54:31] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.95) Quit ()
  237. [21:57:48] <kingryan> so, I'm working on finishing up my proceding paper for xtech [http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/content/speakers]
  238. [21:57:58] <kingryan> and I want to make a reference to "Rule of Least Power"
  239. [21:58:31] <DanC> ah...
  240. [21:58:39] <kingryan> I'm under the impression that some consider RDF to be "low power", but that doesn't seem right to me, it seems to be more powerful than most alternatives
  241. [21:58:52] * danja detaches #microformats
  242. [21:59:10] <DanC> oh... I guess you already know about http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
  243. [21:59:13] <kingryan> ...since about anything I can think of (format-wise) can also be represented in RDF
  244. [21:59:17] <kingryan> yeah, I've seen that
  245. [22:00:14] <DanC> RDF is fairly low power in that it can only express "A and B" and "for some x, P(x)." and "the _prop_ of _subj_ is _val_". It can't express loops or programs, by itself.
  246. [22:00:51] <DanC> and while RDF properties can have more semantics, RDF consumers are allowed to do "partial understanding"
  247. [22:01:18] <kingryan> ok
  248. [22:02:41] <kingryan> it still just doesn't seem right to me, that a generic language is low-power
  249. [22:03:06] <kingryan> I've always correlated low-power languages and domain specific languages
  250. [22:03:28] <kingryan> since dsl's are purposely limited to specific use cases
  251. [22:03:52] <DanC> but it is low-power, in the relevant sense. i.e. TeX is high-power because it's turing complete, and you can't reliably pick out, say, the 3rd word of a TeX document. But you _can_ reliably pull out, say, all the subjects of all the statements in an RDF document, even if you don't know what the properties mean.
  252. [22:04:35] <DanC> well, it's low-power in some sense, anyway. But there are definitely other ways to look at it.
  253. [22:04:50] <kingryan> so the 'relevant sense' seems to be the scalability factor?
  254. [22:04:57] <DanC> yes, very much, scalability
  255. [22:05:39] <kingryan> so, to be considered "low power" it must be able to scale *down* and it doesn't matter whether i can, coincidentally scale *up*
  256. [22:05:42] <kingryan> ?
  257. [22:06:35] <kingryan> brb
  258. [22:15:19] <kingryan> back
  259. [22:15:29] <kingryan> family time for you, DanC?
  260. [22:16:17] <DanC> not quite yet
  261. [22:16:45] <DanC> I can't say it doesn't matter at all... RDF perhaps stretches things.
  262. [22:16:45] <kingryan> ok, so back to my question...
  263. [22:17:14] <DanC> but there is definitely a low-power reading of any RDF document that is licensed by the spec.
  264. [22:17:46] <kingryan> ok, I can see that
  265. [22:17:50] <DanC> there may be high-power readings too; e.g. something that knows OWL is going to get a more high-power reading.
  266. [22:17:55] <kingryan> sure
  267. [22:18:07] <kingryan> now, the question is, is there a "low power" reading of microformats?
  268. [22:18:17] <kingryan> assuming html knowledge is our baseline
  269. [22:19:34] * DanC tries to remember the wiki syntax for lists. sigh.
  270. [22:19:36] <kingryan> I'd like to think that microformats are a low-power language, because they're correlated to DSL's, which I would think of as low-power, but there may not be that strong of a case there
  271. [22:19:46] <kingryan> unordered?
  272. [22:19:51] <DanC> yes, microformats are pretty low-power. no loops.
  273. [22:19:54] <DanC> yes, unordered
  274. [22:19:59] <kingryan> *'s
  275. [22:20:10] <mfbot> [[profile-uris]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris * DanC * (+828) based on SWSWi discussions
  276. [22:20:20] <DanC> umm... the lists there aren't working as expected
  277. [22:21:06] <mfbot> [[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=5850 * DanC * (+34)
  278. [22:22:02] <kingryan> space at the beginning of the line creates a <pre> block
  279. [22:22:40] <DanC> what about nested lists?
  280. [22:23:00] <kingryan> * foo
  281. [22:23:03] <kingryan> ** bar
  282. [22:23:06] <DanC> ah
  283. [22:23:15] <kingryan> not quite intuitive
  284. [22:24:52] <mfbot> [[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=5851 * DanC * (+107) more on versioning
  285. [22:25:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile&diff=0&oldid=5852 * DanC * (+131) note profile at w3.org
  286. [22:26:04] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5853 * DanC * (+31) profile uris migrating from tantek's todo list
  287. [22:28:43] <danja> hmm, two issues here, no?
  288. [22:28:51] <danja> one, the minting of URIs
  289. [22:29:03] <danja> two the maintenance of the profiles
  290. [22:29:23] <kingryan> yeah, but they're connected
  291. [22:29:33] <kingryan> the idea is that we need a policy for those URIs
  292. [22:29:35] <danja> presumably for the latter Don't Repeat Yourself applies
  293. [22:29:45] <danja> sure
  294. [22:30:03] <kingryan> either they're static (with version numbers), or we update them
  295. [22:30:17] <DanC> "One proposal is: use www.w3.org, following W3C namespace policy (http://www.w3.org/1999/10/nsuri). As to versioning, change the profile whenever the wiki changes (within some reasonable latency, say, a couple weeks or a month)."
  296. [22:30:21] <kingryan> (to have the latest xmdp, in a careful, backwards-compatible fashion)
  297. [22:30:33] <kingryan> yup
  298. [22:30:42] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  299. [22:30:47] <danja> yep, on that DRY point - what would be the er normative root source doc
  300. [22:30:54] <kingryan> and danja, the third issue is "where to put them"
  301. [22:31:01] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  302. [22:31:20] <kingryan> ie, which domain
  303. [22:31:26] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  304. [22:31:29] <DanC> as to normative root: presumably, the community agrees what the profile should be. So if the profile doc at w3.org and the wiki get out of sync, we've got a community problem, not just a technical problem.
  305. [22:31:39] <kingryan> yeah
  306. [22:31:45] <danja> ok
  307. [22:32:03] <kingryan> continuing on the least power thing...
  308. [22:32:16] <danja> please do - I'm interested
  309. [22:32:39] <kingryan> it seems that microformats certainly fit under the "easier to analyze" part of this
  310. [22:32:45] <kingryan> meaning easier for humans
  311. [22:33:16] <kingryan> but I'm not sure that there's a low-power machine reading of microformats
  312. [22:33:22] <DanC> certainly each individual microformat, so far, is low-power, both for machines and for people.
  313. [22:33:52] <DanC> but for a machine to consume all microformats is... messy, to date.
  314. [22:34:12] <DanC> ... which motivation for GRDDL.
  315. [22:34:30] <DanC> ^is^
  316. [22:34:43] <kingryan> so, the low power reading is "HTML" ?
  317. [22:35:12] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  318. [22:35:14] <DanC> ah... indeed, I wasn't even thinking of that... the low-power reading of microformats is indeed HTML. And then HTML+CSS.
  319. [22:35:21] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
  320. [22:36:29] <kingryan> ok
  321. [22:36:33] <DanC> the next step up is rel="license" which can be parsed with one or two simple XPaths or a handful of lines of perl.
  322. [22:36:58] <kingryan> ok, this is good, because I've used this arguement already in support of µf's
  323. [22:37:02] <DanC> e.g. it doesn't cost google much to index rel="license".
  324. [22:37:55] <kingryan> ...much *more*..
  325. [22:38:02] <DanC> and the next step up is hCard/hCalendar, which is pretty straightforward stuff... they're at sorta JSON complexity; i.e. pretty easy to store in a struct or a few SQL tables.
  326. [22:38:06] <kingryan> since they're already doing most of the work neccessary
  327. [22:38:09] <DanC> right; much more.
  328. [22:39:27] <DanC> hCalendar RRULEs have some complexity; it's not even clear that they're really part of hCalendar yet, for that reason.
  329. [22:40:22] <kingryan> yeah
  330. [22:41:20] <DanC> it's on my TODO list to check whether my code and brian's code agree on rrules.
  331. [22:41:57] <kingryan> I'm not sure how much rrules stuff brian's implemented
  332. [22:43:14] <DanC> I depend on it in Real Life, so I'll be working on tests as soon as I can
  333. [22:45:24] <kingryan> great
  334. [22:45:45] * kingryan realizes his evil plan to get others to write tests is working ;D
  335. [22:50:37] * kingryan wonders with it was changed from "Principle of Least Power" to "Rule of Least Power"
  336. [22:50:42] <kingryan> why*
  337. [22:50:45] <kingryan> not with
  338. [22:51:01] <DanC> oh... and re "another one of Dan's changes, I shouldn't have to ci this, should I" I never did check in a change to from-wild-04.html because it's not clear that I have rights to.
  339. [22:51:23] <DanC> I still like Principle too. sigh.
  340. [22:51:52] <kingryan> you mean copyright?
  341. [22:51:55] <kingryan> or commit rights?
  342. [22:52:03] <DanC> exactly. right to produce a derivative work
  343. [22:52:11] <DanC> produce and redistribute
  344. [22:53:01] <kingryan> yeah, I think I'm just going to sidestep the copyright issue by getting rid of the FTW tests
  345. [22:53:13] <kingryan> I may use them as models for writing tests, though
  346. [22:53:23] <DanC> I'd like to keep the ones with cc licenses.
  347. [22:53:29] <kingryan> (I've already removed a number of tests)
  348. [22:53:33] <DanC> at least if the cc license allows derivative works
  349. [22:53:38] <kingryan> well, the problem with them is that they're share-alike
  350. [22:53:48] <DanC> share-alike is fine by me
  351. [22:54:20] <DanC> but... hmm... does the share-alike license infect the whole test suite? I suppose that could be tricky.
  352. [22:54:29] <kingryan> yeah
  353. [22:54:34] <kingryan> I don't know how that works
  354. [22:54:40] <kingryan> but I think I'd rather just avoid it
  355. [22:54:42] <DanC> I'd still rather keep them. but I guess it doesn't matter too mcuh.
  356. [22:54:54] <kingryan> the only thing the FTW tests give us is document complexity
  357. [22:55:04] <kingryan> and invalidity :D
  358. [22:55:17] <DanC> I'd like to think it gives a "y'all come and play!" message.
  359. [22:55:32] <kingryan> but I'm not convinced that its neccessary to test for that kind of complexity
  360. [22:55:40] <DanC> a la: if you give us license, we'll include your doc in the test suite, so you can be sure your usage remains standard
  361. [22:55:40] <kingryan> I suppose
  362. [22:55:49] <kingryan> true
  363. [22:55:57] <kingryan> hadn't thought of it that way
  364. [22:56:35] <kingryan> still, most of the FTW examples aren't that interesting (ie, they don't cover any new ground)
  365. [22:56:38] <DanC> I'm thinking we want to have an example from evdb, one from avon, etc., to be sure anybody developing tools can use the tests to be sure they'll interoperate with the major deployments.
  366. [22:56:46] <kingryan> (besides tantek's :D)
  367. [22:56:54] <kingryan> sure
  368. [22:57:23] <kingryan> that's a good point
  369. [22:57:34] <kingryan> also, we need to adopt a regression testing model
  370. [22:58:01] <kingryan> ie, anytime we find a good example that doesn't work in x2v, we should add it, or an equivalent testcase to the suite
  371. [22:58:09] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
  372. [22:58:46] <DanC> absolutely.
  373. [23:00:50] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  374. [23:01:13] * kingryan just realized that http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats references the DRY principle several times
  375. [23:01:18] <kingryan> ironic, no?
  376. [23:01:18] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  377. [23:01:21] <DanC> hoot
  378. [23:01:43] <DanC> not only that, but each of the microformats specs repeats the principles
  379. [23:01:43] <kingryan> it says "Don't repeat yourself" and "not repeating yourself"
  380. [23:01:48] <kingryan> yup
  381. [23:01:51] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
  382. [23:01:55] <DanC> well, family time is here
  383. [23:02:02] <kingryan> tantek's pedagogic technique
  384. [23:02:04] <kingryan> alright
  385. [23:02:14] <kingryan> later, danc
  386. [23:02:26] <danja> ciao dan
  387. [23:02:42] <danja> I'd better spend 20mins quality time with the tv before bed
  388. [23:03:40] * danja (n=danja@host15-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ()
  389. [23:19:13] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) has joined #microformats
  390. [23:21:15] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) Quit (Client Quit)
  391. [23:22:57] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  392. [23:28:43] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-82-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  393. [23:28:43] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  394. [23:35:49] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) has joined #microformats
  395. [23:37:13] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  396. [23:40:51] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  397. [23:45:25] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) Quit ()
  398. [23:45:34] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) has joined #microformats
  399. [23:47:07] * jbergius (n=jbergius@a80-186-18-80.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ()
  400. [23:47:14] <trovster> Is there anything for 'age' in the hcard? What about gender?
  401. [23:51:42] * izo (n=izo@guatemala-fbx.brainstorm.fr) Quit ()
  402. [23:59:34] * markmansour (n=markmans@dsl-202-173-156-87.vic.westnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  403. [23:59:36] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()

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