IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-04-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [02:08:53] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [03:12:34] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [04:54:03] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [06:00:45] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [06:00:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [07:04:39] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [11:39:02] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5836 * DavidJanes * (+292) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
- [11:39:53] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5837 * DavidJanes * (+69) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
- [11:41:25] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5838 * DavidJanes * (+117) Feed <i>permalink</i> (atom:<i>permalink</i>) -
- [11:41:40] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5839 * DavidJanes * (+2) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
- [11:41:52] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5840 * DavidJanes * (+11) Feed <i>updated</i> (atom:<i>updated</i>) -
- [11:42:08] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5841 * DavidJanes * (+11) Feed <i>permalink</i> (atom:<i>permalink</i>) -
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- [13:05:12] <jibot>
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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- [13:31:44] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [13:33:07] * tantek (n=tantek@72-254-95-209.client.stsn.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:33:08] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [14:05:57] <jibot>
evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
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- [14:24:53] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [15:14:20] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [15:20:54] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=5842 * Brian * (+544) this year -
- [15:49:36] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=5843 * Brian * (+21) this year -
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- [16:00:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [16:00:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [16:26:48] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [16:53:23] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [17:22:08] <trovster>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/127517371/?#comment72057594105423269 - does Tantek ever do any work. All the photos I see are from parties or planes!
- [17:26:04] <limbo_>
parties ARE work.
- [17:26:54] <trovster>
Oh, forgive me!
- [17:27:30] <limbo_>
that's how we do business in time of bubble :)
- [17:37:25] <trovster>
Bubble, yey.
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- [17:37:51] <trovster>
Has Tantek got one of those bubble thingies, he should start blowing them at the party.
- [17:40:02] <trovster>
http://www.trovster.com/microformats.phps what do you think ?
- [17:46:07] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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- [18:16:14] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
- [18:25:16] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-37-149-178.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:25:16] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [18:36:00] * pnhChris is now known as pnhBusy
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- [18:46:49] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:27:53] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=5844 * RobertBachmann * (+134) Feed <i>title</i> (atom:<i>title</i>) -
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- [20:46:39] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [20:47:46] <mfbot>
[[workofart-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=5845 * TimG * (+1682) Discussion -
- [20:51:02] <mfbot>
[[workofart-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=workofart-formats&diff=0&oldid=5846 * TimG * (+63) Formats -
- [20:52:48] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.95) has joined #microformats
- [20:52:48] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:53:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [21:14:16] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) has joined #microformats
- [21:14:16] <jibot>
DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
- [21:14:49] * DanC tunes in, prepares for another avalanche of changesets from kingryan
- [21:15:59] <DanC>
indeed, I'm current thru 96:841d2fe8afdc and he's at 133:526bbe574582
- [21:16:39] <DanC>
Ryan, I saw a few comments about "another one of Dan's changes, I shouldn't have to ci this, should I?"
- [21:16:54] <DanC>
indeed, what you need to do is `hg merge`
- [21:17:06] <DanC>
jibot, seen kingryan ?
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- [21:27:44] <mfbot>
[[rest/urls]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/urls&diff=0&oldid=5847 * DrErnie * (+144) Notes - rest/opacity
- [21:28:10] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:28:35] <mfbot>
[[rest]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest&diff=0&oldid=5848 * DrErnie * (+90) URLs -
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- [21:49:36] <kingryan>
hey DanC
- [21:49:41] <kingryan>
sorry, in a meeting then lunch
- [21:49:50] <kingryan>
as you noticed, I pushed a bunch of changesets the other day
- [21:49:54] <DanC>
np
- [21:49:58] <kingryan>
but, I'm missing something with hg
- [21:50:07] <kingryan>
I've been doing pull, update, push
- [21:50:16] <kingryan>
but I still get branch merge warnings
- [21:50:21] <kingryan>
and have to ci your changes
- [21:50:43] * kingryan doesn't see 'merge' in the hg help
- [21:50:47] <kingryan>
only 'update'
- [21:51:01] <DanC>
hmm
- [21:51:06] <kingryan>
I believe there's an update -m with is 'merge', no?
- [21:51:18] <DanC>
it's probably a synonym
- [21:51:26] <DanC>
and the default help only has the un-scary options ;-)
- [21:51:36] <kingryan>
ok
- [21:51:54] <kingryan>
ok, maybe I just forgot to merge last time
- [21:52:06] <kingryan>
I'm not quite used to this model of cooperation
- [21:53:20] <DanC>
yeah; it's new to me too
- [21:53:52] <mfbot>
[[rest/property]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/property * DrErnie * (+2318)
- [21:54:28] <mfbot>
[[rest/property]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/property&diff=0&oldid=5849 * DrErnie * (+57) Open Issues -
- [21:54:31] * tantek (n=tantek@131.107.59.95) Quit ()
- [21:57:48] <kingryan>
so, I'm working on finishing up my proceding paper for xtech [http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/content/speakers]
- [21:57:58] <kingryan>
and I want to make a reference to "Rule of Least Power"
- [21:58:31] <DanC>
ah...
- [21:58:39] <kingryan>
I'm under the impression that some consider RDF to be "low power", but that doesn't seem right to me, it seems to be more powerful than most alternatives
- [21:58:52] * danja detaches #microformats
- [21:59:10] <DanC>
oh... I guess you already know about http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
- [21:59:13] <kingryan>
...since about anything I can think of (format-wise) can also be represented in RDF
- [21:59:17] <kingryan>
yeah, I've seen that
- [22:00:14] <DanC>
RDF is fairly low power in that it can only express "A and B" and "for some x, P(x)." and "the _prop_ of _subj_ is _val_". It can't express loops or programs, by itself.
- [22:00:51] <DanC>
and while RDF properties can have more semantics, RDF consumers are allowed to do "partial understanding"
- [22:01:18] <kingryan>
ok
- [22:02:41] <kingryan>
it still just doesn't seem right to me, that a generic language is low-power
- [22:03:06] <kingryan>
I've always correlated low-power languages and domain specific languages
- [22:03:28] <kingryan>
since dsl's are purposely limited to specific use cases
- [22:03:52] <DanC>
but it is low-power, in the relevant sense. i.e. TeX is high-power because it's turing complete, and you can't reliably pick out, say, the 3rd word of a TeX document. But you _can_ reliably pull out, say, all the subjects of all the statements in an RDF document, even if you don't know what the properties mean.
- [22:04:35] <DanC>
well, it's low-power in some sense, anyway. But there are definitely other ways to look at it.
- [22:04:50] <kingryan>
so the 'relevant sense' seems to be the scalability factor?
- [22:04:57] <DanC>
yes, very much, scalability
- [22:05:39] <kingryan>
so, to be considered "low power" it must be able to scale *down* and it doesn't matter whether i can, coincidentally scale *up*
- [22:05:42] <kingryan>
?
- [22:06:35] <kingryan>
brb
- [22:15:19] <kingryan>
back
- [22:15:29] <kingryan>
family time for you, DanC?
- [22:16:17] <DanC>
not quite yet
- [22:16:45] <DanC>
I can't say it doesn't matter at all... RDF perhaps stretches things.
- [22:16:45] <kingryan>
ok, so back to my question...
- [22:17:14] <DanC>
but there is definitely a low-power reading of any RDF document that is licensed by the spec.
- [22:17:46] <kingryan>
ok, I can see that
- [22:17:50] <DanC>
there may be high-power readings too; e.g. something that knows OWL is going to get a more high-power reading.
- [22:17:55] <kingryan>
sure
- [22:18:07] <kingryan>
now, the question is, is there a "low power" reading of microformats?
- [22:18:17] <kingryan>
assuming html knowledge is our baseline
- [22:19:34] * DanC tries to remember the wiki syntax for lists. sigh.
- [22:19:36] <kingryan>
I'd like to think that microformats are a low-power language, because they're correlated to DSL's, which I would think of as low-power, but there may not be that strong of a case there
- [22:19:46] <kingryan>
unordered?
- [22:19:51] <DanC>
yes, microformats are pretty low-power. no loops.
- [22:19:54] <DanC>
yes, unordered
- [22:19:59] <kingryan>
*'s
- [22:20:10] <mfbot>
[[profile-uris]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris * DanC * (+828) based on SWSWi discussions
- [22:20:20] <DanC>
umm... the lists there aren't working as expected
- [22:21:06] <mfbot>
[[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=5850 * DanC * (+34)
- [22:22:02] <kingryan>
space at the beginning of the line creates a <pre> block
- [22:22:40] <DanC>
what about nested lists?
- [22:23:00] <kingryan>
* foo
- [22:23:03] <kingryan>
** bar
- [22:23:06] <DanC>
ah
- [22:23:15] <kingryan>
not quite intuitive
- [22:24:52] <mfbot>
[[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=5851 * DanC * (+107) more on versioning
- [22:25:38] <mfbot>
[[hcard-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile&diff=0&oldid=5852 * DanC * (+131) note profile at w3.org
- [22:26:04] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5853 * DanC * (+31) profile uris migrating from tantek's todo list
- [22:28:43] <danja>
hmm, two issues here, no?
- [22:28:51] <danja>
one, the minting of URIs
- [22:29:03] <danja>
two the maintenance of the profiles
- [22:29:23] <kingryan>
yeah, but they're connected
- [22:29:33] <kingryan>
the idea is that we need a policy for those URIs
- [22:29:35] <danja>
presumably for the latter Don't Repeat Yourself applies
- [22:29:45] <danja>
sure
- [22:30:03] <kingryan>
either they're static (with version numbers), or we update them
- [22:30:17] <DanC>
"One proposal is: use www.w3.org, following W3C namespace policy (http://www.w3.org/1999/10/nsuri). As to versioning, change the profile whenever the wiki changes (within some reasonable latency, say, a couple weeks or a month)."
- [22:30:21] <kingryan>
(to have the latest xmdp, in a careful, backwards-compatible fashion)
- [22:30:33] <kingryan>
yup
- [22:30:42] * bpt (n=bpt@adsl-221-74-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [22:30:47] <danja>
yep, on that DRY point - what would be the er normative root source doc
- [22:30:54] <kingryan>
and danja, the third issue is "where to put them"
- [22:31:01] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
- [22:31:20] <kingryan>
ie, which domain
- [22:31:26] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:31:29] <DanC>
as to normative root: presumably, the community agrees what the profile should be. So if the profile doc at w3.org and the wiki get out of sync, we've got a community problem, not just a technical problem.
- [22:31:39] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:31:45] <danja>
ok
- [22:32:03] <kingryan>
continuing on the least power thing...
- [22:32:16] <danja>
please do - I'm interested
- [22:32:39] <kingryan>
it seems that microformats certainly fit under the "easier to analyze" part of this
- [22:32:45] <kingryan>
meaning easier for humans
- [22:33:16] <kingryan>
but I'm not sure that there's a low-power machine reading of microformats
- [22:33:22] <DanC>
certainly each individual microformat, so far, is low-power, both for machines and for people.
- [22:33:52] <DanC>
but for a machine to consume all microformats is... messy, to date.
- [22:34:12] <DanC>
... which motivation for GRDDL.
- [22:34:30] <DanC>
^is^
- [22:34:43] <kingryan>
so, the low power reading is "HTML" ?
- [22:35:12] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:35:14] <DanC>
ah... indeed, I wasn't even thinking of that... the low-power reading of microformats is indeed HTML. And then HTML+CSS.
- [22:35:21] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
- [22:36:29] <kingryan>
ok
- [22:36:33] <DanC>
the next step up is rel="license" which can be parsed with one or two simple XPaths or a handful of lines of perl.
- [22:36:58] <kingryan>
ok, this is good, because I've used this arguement already in support of µf's
- [22:37:02] <DanC>
e.g. it doesn't cost google much to index rel="license".
- [22:37:55] <kingryan>
...much *more*..
- [22:38:02] <DanC>
and the next step up is hCard/hCalendar, which is pretty straightforward stuff... they're at sorta JSON complexity; i.e. pretty easy to store in a struct or a few SQL tables.
- [22:38:06] <kingryan>
since they're already doing most of the work neccessary
- [22:38:09] <DanC>
right; much more.
- [22:39:27] <DanC>
hCalendar RRULEs have some complexity; it's not even clear that they're really part of hCalendar yet, for that reason.
- [22:40:22] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:41:20] <DanC>
it's on my TODO list to check whether my code and brian's code agree on rrules.
- [22:41:57] <kingryan>
I'm not sure how much rrules stuff brian's implemented
- [22:43:14] <DanC>
I depend on it in Real Life, so I'll be working on tests as soon as I can
- [22:45:24] <kingryan>
great
- [22:45:45] * kingryan realizes his evil plan to get others to write tests is working ;D
- [22:50:37] * kingryan wonders with it was changed from "Principle of Least Power" to "Rule of Least Power"
- [22:50:42] <kingryan>
why*
- [22:50:45] <kingryan>
not with
- [22:51:01] <DanC>
oh... and re "another one of Dan's changes, I shouldn't have to ci this, should I" I never did check in a change to from-wild-04.html because it's not clear that I have rights to.
- [22:51:23] <DanC>
I still like Principle too. sigh.
- [22:51:52] <kingryan>
you mean copyright?
- [22:51:55] <kingryan>
or commit rights?
- [22:52:03] <DanC>
exactly. right to produce a derivative work
- [22:52:11] <DanC>
produce and redistribute
- [22:53:01] <kingryan>
yeah, I think I'm just going to sidestep the copyright issue by getting rid of the FTW tests
- [22:53:13] <kingryan>
I may use them as models for writing tests, though
- [22:53:23] <DanC>
I'd like to keep the ones with cc licenses.
- [22:53:29] <kingryan>
(I've already removed a number of tests)
- [22:53:33] <DanC>
at least if the cc license allows derivative works
- [22:53:38] <kingryan>
well, the problem with them is that they're share-alike
- [22:53:48] <DanC>
share-alike is fine by me
- [22:54:20] <DanC>
but... hmm... does the share-alike license infect the whole test suite? I suppose that could be tricky.
- [22:54:29] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:54:34] <kingryan>
I don't know how that works
- [22:54:40] <kingryan>
but I think I'd rather just avoid it
- [22:54:42] <DanC>
I'd still rather keep them. but I guess it doesn't matter too mcuh.
- [22:54:54] <kingryan>
the only thing the FTW tests give us is document complexity
- [22:55:04] <kingryan>
and invalidity :D
- [22:55:17] <DanC>
I'd like to think it gives a "y'all come and play!" message.
- [22:55:32] <kingryan>
but I'm not convinced that its neccessary to test for that kind of complexity
- [22:55:40] <DanC>
a la: if you give us license, we'll include your doc in the test suite, so you can be sure your usage remains standard
- [22:55:40] <kingryan>
I suppose
- [22:55:49] <kingryan>
true
- [22:55:57] <kingryan>
hadn't thought of it that way
- [22:56:35] <kingryan>
still, most of the FTW examples aren't that interesting (ie, they don't cover any new ground)
- [22:56:38] <DanC>
I'm thinking we want to have an example from evdb, one from avon, etc., to be sure anybody developing tools can use the tests to be sure they'll interoperate with the major deployments.
- [22:56:46] <kingryan>
(besides tantek's :D)
- [22:56:54] <kingryan>
sure
- [22:57:23] <kingryan>
that's a good point
- [22:57:34] <kingryan>
also, we need to adopt a regression testing model
- [22:58:01] <kingryan>
ie, anytime we find a good example that doesn't work in x2v, we should add it, or an equivalent testcase to the suite
- [22:58:09] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ()
- [22:58:46] <DanC>
absolutely.
- [23:00:50] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
- [23:01:13] * kingryan just realized that http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats references the DRY principle several times
- [23:01:18] <kingryan>
ironic, no?
- [23:01:18] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [23:01:21] <DanC>
hoot
- [23:01:43] <DanC>
not only that, but each of the microformats specs repeats the principles
- [23:01:43] <kingryan>
it says "Don't repeat yourself" and "not repeating yourself"
- [23:01:48] <kingryan>
yup
- [23:01:51] * Snowden (n=some@128-193-139-252.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #microformats
- [23:01:55] <DanC>
well, family time is here
- [23:02:02] <kingryan>
tantek's pedagogic technique
- [23:02:04] <kingryan>
alright
- [23:02:14] <kingryan>
later, danc
- [23:02:26] <danja>
ciao dan
- [23:02:42] <danja>
I'd better spend 20mins quality time with the tv before bed
- [23:03:40] * danja (n=danja@host15-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ()
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- [23:28:43] <jibot>
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
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- [23:47:14] <trovster>
Is there anything for 'age' in the hcard? What about gender?
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