IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-05-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [02:49:12] <PhilipAshlock>
is anybody going to Supernova 2006 in SF? http://www.supernova2006.com (conference on data decentralization)
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- [03:33:32] <tantek>
Hi PhilipAshlock, yes, details of the Decentralizing Data are forthcoming
- [03:33:43] <tantek>
I will be there
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- [03:35:01] <tantek>
as will Matt Augustine of Live Clipboard fame
- [03:35:18] * tantek sets mode +o briansuda
- [03:36:09] <jakedahn>
Live Clipboard?
- [03:36:15] <briansuda>
i had a look on the wiki for upcoming events to see if supernova was listed and it was not, glad to hear someone will be there to represent
- [03:37:03] <briansuda>
jakedahn, Live Clipboard is pretty interesting, it is a microsoft initiative that uses Microformats as one of the interchange formats.
- [03:37:06] <tantek>
jakedahn: http://technorati.com/search/%22live%20clipboard%22%20microformats
- [03:37:35] <tantek>
briansuda, i have a bunch of updating to do for the /events page (not to mention the events listing/feed on the home page as well)
- [03:38:00] <briansuda>
i just added a link to the wiki about a demo they presented: http://microformats.org/wiki/podcasts it was March 20-22nd
- [03:38:27] <briansuda>
if you have the time you should download the video it is pretty well explained
- [03:38:52] <jakedahn>
fo shizzle, I'll watch it when I wake up :)
- [03:39:27] <jakedahn>
sleepy time :)
- [03:39:30] <jakedahn>
night everyone
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- [03:39:51] <briansuda>
tantek, if there is anything i can do let me know. we should try to get as much cleaned-up before all the conferences and presentations next week
- [03:40:02] <tantek>
agreed
- [03:40:35] <briansuda>
feel free to email me with a ToDo list, or just add it to me todos on the wiki
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- [03:55:59] <pnhChris>
anyone have any thoughts on marking up a tv listing with mfs? doesn't seem to be much applicable at this point
- [03:56:48] <pnhChris>
is calling each show an event too much of a stretch?
- [03:57:07] <pnhChris>
not a full grid, but something like this: http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?d=tvs&id=166031406&channels=us_WNET&lineup=us_NJ29444&.intl=us
- [03:57:11] <briansuda>
there was a discussion about that awhile ago. It kinda fell between an event and a citation
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- [03:59:04] <pnhChris>
it probably needs something of its own.. given the potential for reuse with dvrs and such
- [03:59:43] <pnhChris>
saving to your dvr scheduler instead of your calendaring app
- [04:02:01] <briansuda>
let me see if i can't find the old discussion and see if anything else was mentioned
- [04:03:54] <briansuda>
december was a busy mailing list month, but here's the thread that started it http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-December/002292.html
- [04:18:17] <pnhChris>
yeah.. that's not /exactly/ what i was going for
- [04:18:23] <pnhChris>
but thanks for looking it up
- [04:20:01] * pnhChris keeps clicking along replies
- [04:21:33] <pnhChris>
yeah.. i'm thinking more along the lines of describing an airing of a show ala tv guide then describing something that can be viewed or (necessarily) previewed online
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- [04:48:01] <tantek>
pnhChris, I'd say it is closest to an event
- [04:48:19] <tantek>
start with that and see how it goes
- [04:53:41] <pnhChris>
yeah, i'm not convinced that be useful... but i'm just gathering my thoughts... haven't started on the project that it would be for yet
- [04:55:15] <pnhChris>
though you can add shows to your yahoo calendar via their listings
- [04:55:56] * pnhChris just added letterman to his calendar that he didn't konw he had
- [04:56:10] <pnhChris>
Late Show With David Letterman (CBS)
- [04:56:11] <pnhChris>
Date: Tuesday May 9, 2006
- [04:56:11] <pnhChris>
Time: 3:35 am - 4:37 am
- [04:56:11] <pnhChris>
Type: TV Show (Private)
- [04:56:11] <pnhChris>
Ballplayer Derek Jeter; actress Michelle Monaghan; the Globe of Death motorcycle stunt show.
- [04:57:30] <briansuda>
so far everything you listed there can be represented as a vevent
- [04:57:39] <briansuda>
summary: Late Show With David Letterman (CBS)
- [04:57:49] <pnhChris>
well
- [04:57:58] <briansuda>
dtstart: 20060509T93500Z
- [04:57:58] <pnhChris>
that's the entry as it appeared in my calendar
- [04:58:18] <pnhChris>
here's the entry before i hit add to calendar
- [04:58:25] <pnhChris>
(if it shows up for you)
- [04:58:26] <pnhChris>
http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?d=tvp&id=169852837&cf=0&lineup=us_NJ29444&channels=us_WCBS&chspid=166031052&chname=CBS&progutn=1147145700&.intl=us
- [04:58:57] <pnhChris>
additional stuff like add to tivo, future airings, show type, network, etc
- [04:59:43] * briansuda checking link
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- [05:02:01] <briansuda>
there is a property in vevent (rdate i think) that allows you to list multiple instances of an event, so that would solve the multiple airing....
- [05:02:05] <pnhChris>
odd that ratings, caption info, etc aren't on that page but they are on less detailed CBS daily listing.. but that's yahoo's issue, not mine
- [05:02:09] <briansuda>
not sure how to solve the TiVo issue
- [05:02:40] <pnhChris>
but yeah.. there's lots of other listing stuff like ratings, new/repeat, etc
- [05:02:43] <briansuda>
I would personally stay away from that - it is funny when you look at the vCard spec and they have space for PCS phone, and BBS
- [05:03:40] <briansuda>
agreed. there was a discussion awhile ago about RATINGS, there is already PICS which didn't do so well. the other problem is that rating are cultural and geo-centric and don't scale across cultures.
- [05:03:48] <pnhChris>
yeah.. but at the same time that data, or sme kinda handle on the show that could be fed to a dvr app, seems to be the /most/ useful bit of information to be able to pull out of a listing
- [05:03:50] <briansuda>
not to say they aren't important
- [05:04:47] <briansuda>
in vevent there is also 'categories' which solves the TYPE 'Series/talk'
- [05:05:14] <briansuda>
but there isn't a built-in way for saying CBS as a company
- [05:05:26] <pnhChris>
channel
- [05:05:28] <pnhChris>
location
- [05:05:28] <briansuda>
you'd have to mix in hCard
- [05:05:51] <pnhChris>
its not representing the company there
- [05:06:28] <briansuda>
it's not representing channel, my CBS is channel 4, your's might be something else.
- [05:06:49] <pnhChris>
click cbs for more details on what its representign
- [05:06:58] <pnhChris>
it certainly is representing a specific channel
- [05:07:11] <briansuda>
CBS 2 (WCBS)
- [05:07:22] <pnhChris>
just happens to be a simple lable in that view
- [05:07:29] <tantek>
you can use hReview to represent the reviews/ratings
- [05:07:42] <pnhChris>
ewwww
- [05:07:48] <tantek>
?
- [05:07:48] <briansuda>
yeah, then you'd need a way to specify channel which is out of the scope of event (unless you stretch the meaning of 'location')
- [05:07:52] <pnhChris>
oh
- [05:07:53] <pnhChris>
no
- [05:08:00] <pnhChris>
tantek.. i'm talking a different ratings
- [05:08:12] <tantek>
actually, you're not, you just think you are ;)
- [05:08:21] <tantek>
you're talking about rating tags
- [05:08:24] <pnhChris>
like PG-13, R, TVPG
- [05:08:37] <tantek>
those are just tags that are applied to the content
- [05:09:43] <pnhChris>
in a way
- [05:10:01] <pnhChris>
but that direction would make consumption a pain in the ass
- [05:10:52] <pnhChris>
for example, grabbing all shows i'd let children watch
- [05:11:38] <pnhChris>
i'd rather work under a specific ratings scale then dealing with tags that have no structure and contain a mixed set of data
- [05:12:41] <briansuda>
I know we talked previously about why PICS was the answer to Web Ratings, and it never took off because it had structure... i'm certainly not promoting a free-for-all
- [05:15:05] <briansuda>
Sorry, this is a slightly long trail of replies too http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001684.html
- [05:15:22] <pnhChris>
its something that probably deserves some exploration via examples wiki page ... i know my view of what would be needed would be fairly us centric.. and theres other issues out there like payperview or on demand (can an event have a duration but not a start and end time?)
- [05:17:33] <briansuda>
sure, you can have a duration, but i THINK dtstart is required.
- [05:17:39] <tantek>
pnhChris, grabbing all shows that you'd let children watch is very different than the next person
- [05:17:50] <tantek>
that is the flaw inherent in the ridiculous MPAA and/or TV ratings systems
- [05:18:14] <tantek>
brian is right, PICS was a failure precisely because it was overly structured
- [05:18:14] <pnhChris>
yes, but
- [05:18:21] <tantek>
overly structured fails
- [05:18:29] <pnhChris>
as a method of filtering listings
- [05:18:47] <pnhChris>
i still don't see how tags would be useful at all
- [05:18:49] <tantek>
and the tags have plenty of structure for filtering
- [05:19:00] * pnhChris shrugs
- [05:19:03] <tantek>
e.g. you could tag some content <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PG13" rel="tag">PG-13</a>
- [05:19:12] <tantek>
and then it is quite clear what you mean by it
- [05:19:22] <tantek>
you've used a disambiguating tag space and everything
- [05:19:54] <tantek>
as far as what you don't want kids to watch
- [05:19:58] <pnhChris>
to me the problem isn't adding meaning to the tag
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- [05:20:02] <tantek>
that never works on a linear scale AFAIK
- [05:20:12] <tantek>
it is more like, you don't want kids to watch shows with certain attributes
- [05:20:28] <pnhChris>
in applications like vs that block stuff it does
- [05:20:35] <pnhChris>
tv
- [05:20:47] <pnhChris>
well
- [05:20:51] <tantek>
no it doesn't work
- [05:21:01] <tantek>
it works for some very small number of people who happen to think that way
- [05:21:07] <tantek>
for others it doesn't work at all
- [05:21:21] <tantek>
because their chosen taxonomy doesn't map to what they don't want their kids to watch
- [05:21:33] <pnhChris>
i wouldn't go that route personally tantek
- [05:21:45] <pnhChris>
but i'm not going to pass judgement on the system that way
- [05:21:51] <tantek>
it's the easiest proof of why that system is totally flawed
- [05:21:58] <tantek>
not to mention cross-culturally
- [05:22:11] <pnhChris>
the way i read the listings the rating is a much more specific item of information then a tag
- [05:22:13] <tantek>
it's not worth spending time supporting flawed system
- [05:22:27] <tantek>
it's just a tag with specific meaning to you
- [05:22:40] <pnhChris>
and in many US contexts its the rating that might have a decription or tags describing the items that went into the rating
- [05:24:17] <pnhChris>
if its somethign that i'm tasked with marking up i'm going to look at how I can best mark up that data to convey the meaning that the publisher sees it, not some enlightened consumer who thinks the whole idea is dumb
- [05:24:22] <pnhChris>
or flawed
- [05:24:43] <pnhChris>
and in the case of US tv listigns, yes
- [05:24:52] <tantek>
right, you should always mark it up as you the publisher see it
- [05:25:10] <pnhChris>
... i read the rating as somethign that is quite different then a tag with a definition at wikipedia
- [05:25:16] <tantek>
but in this day and age of international content, how much sense does a US specific rating system make?
- [05:25:26] <tantek>
e.g. note that YouTube has no such lame top-down taxonomy
- [05:25:32] <tantek>
neither does Google videos
- [05:25:35] <tantek>
etc.
- [05:25:54] * briansuda (i=briansud@ACA63DC2.ipt.aol.com) has left #microformats
- [05:25:58] <pnhChris>
that's not a battle for me to take up as the purson helping build a site for a publisher who believes or must believe in that system
- [05:27:06] <tantek>
right, so you just let them use the set of tags from the predetermined taxonomy and be done with it
- [05:27:14] <tantek>
stick them in a popup menu and you're done
- [05:27:31] <tantek>
from a *format* perspective, they're just tags
- [05:28:15] <tantek>
or you can go down the PICS road and we all know where that leads
- [05:28:35] <tantek>
note that standards for PG etc. have changed over the years
- [05:29:21] <tantek>
that and the fact that more video content is "worldwide" (e.g. on the Web) makes local ratings systems less relevant
- [05:31:21] <pnhChris>
and the fact that the standard has changed over time does more to knock down the use of an explicit defintion of the tag then it does anything else... though the standard for ddeciding the rating may be arbitraty and change over time, the actual rating of a given movie or other item I just can't think of a situation where it has changed (ignoring versions or edits)
- [05:31:28] <pnhChris>
it means the ratings system sucks
- [05:32:23] <pnhChris>
but it doesn't change the fact that you're dealing with something that has [for most purposes] a 0...1 relationship with the item you're representing
- [05:32:39] <pnhChris>
i dunno
- [05:33:08] <pnhChris>
like i said.. its probably worth sitting down with more examples then 3 different views on yahoo.. but i'm not getting to that tonight
- [05:33:53] <pnhChris>
was only looking to get the wheels churning incase it came up later this week
- [05:34:10] <yakk>
tantek, are you going to be at XTech?
- [05:35:07] <pnhChris>
the answer doesn't ultimately have to be a uf either... but i'd much rather it not be then tryign to strect a channel into a "location" or a ratings scale into tags
- [05:35:16] <pnhChris>
stretch*
- [05:41:30] <tantek>
I'm not going to XTech but other microformatters are like Ryan and Brian.
- [05:41:58] <tantek>
pnhChris, my point is that using tags for such linear rating taxonomies is "good enough", and you don't have to worry about anything more for now.
- [05:42:11] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [05:42:34] <yakk>
tantek, cool - I'm looking forward to catching up with them, but I'll have to see you another time
- [05:42:45] <tantek>
yes definitely
- [05:42:54] <tantek>
I will be at @media in London in June if that helps
- [05:46:01] <yakk>
sadly not
- [05:46:22] <yakk>
since I heard about the scotch store in heathrow I've been looking for excuses to go to london
- [05:50:40] <tantek>
hah!
- [05:50:43] <pnhChris>
it really depends on what I might be starting with tantek... it may just be a case of a ton of extra markup to add for the sake of saying you have a microformat (especially in the case of turning 3 table cells in a daily grid into a full hcalendar item for example)
- [05:51:03] <tantek>
right
- [05:53:10] <pnhChris>
in any case.. its late and I actually have some meetings tomorrow so I'm going to sign off for the night
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- [07:11:31] <mfbot>
[[what-can-you-do-with-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-can-you-do-with-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6271 * Mike * (+733)
- [07:18:12] <mfbot>
[[what-can-you-do-with-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-can-you-do-with-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6272 * Mike * (+479) Michael McCracken -
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- [08:02:10] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=6273 * Singpolyma * (+150) Robert Bachmann -
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- [13:59:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [14:33:48] <mfbot>
[[what-can-you-do-with-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-can-you-do-with-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6274 * Tantek * (+131) style & typo
- [14:47:39] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=6275 * Tantek * (+482) added Ecto, recategorized a few, put authoring and converting/importing first.
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- [14:53:00] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=6276 * Tantek * (+20)
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- [14:54:21] <mfbot>
[[screencasts]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/screencasts * Tantek * (+399) started page
- [14:54:32] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=6277 * Tantek * (+1) typo
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[[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6278 * Tantek * (+1068) added Les Orchard's hCalendar Greasemonkey script screencast
- [15:14:55] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6279 * Tantek * (+17)
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- [15:24:31] <mfbot>
[[what-can-you-do-with-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-can-you-do-with-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6280 * DrErnie * (+227) Add Your Answer Here -
- [15:25:03] <mfbot>
[[what-can-you-do-with-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-can-you-do-with-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6281 * DrErnie * (+69) Ernest Prabhakar -
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- [15:35:37] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [15:42:57] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:07:20] <mfbot>
[[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6282 * Brian * (+113) added Flash screencast about Live clipboard and microformats
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- [16:07:51] <mfbot>
[[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=6283 * Brian * (-259) moved Mix06 screencast to screencasts page
- [16:08:02] <mfbot>
[[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6284 * Brian * (+260) this year -
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- [16:09:39] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [16:36:46] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [17:07:24] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [17:14:23] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [17:17:21] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:27:35] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=6285 * Tantek * (+444)
- [17:32:51] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=6286 * Tantek * (+571)
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- [17:50:23] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=6287 * Tantek * (+166)
- [17:55:19] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=6288 * Tantek * (+41)
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[[screencasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6289 * Tantek * (+12)
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[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6290 * Tantek * (+69)
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- [19:32:52] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [20:34:36] <drewinthehead>
does anyone know of a site using hCalendar in their RSS feed? upcoming.org seem to be using xCal
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- [20:41:19] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [20:42:50] <drewinthehead>
I'm struggling to find an example to use for an Endo screencast
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- [20:57:54] <tantek_>
drew, my Atom site updates feed includes hCalendar events: http://tantek.com/updates.atom
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- [21:03:09] <hober>
drew_away: all Atom feeds at eventful.com include hCalendar in the content
- [21:03:20] <tantek>
hober, nice!
- [21:03:23] <hober>
(with embedded hCards for venue information)
- [21:04:12] <tantek>
hey Hober, you should add that detail to the hCalendar page: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar#Examples_in_the_wild
- [21:07:13] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=6291 * EdwardOConnor * (+26) Examples in the wild - Eventful.com Atom feeds contain hCalendar/hCard
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- [21:39:35] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [21:42:30] <drewinthehead>
hober - thanks!
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- [21:58:24] <hober>
drewinthehead: np
- [21:58:54] <hober>
disclaimer: I wrote the relevant bits of code. If you run into any problems with those feeds, just yell!
- [22:02:33] <drewinthehead>
thanks hober, will do. planning to take a good look at it once i'm done with the mild panic that is currently emanating from JBoss' vicinity
- [22:02:45] <hober>
heh
- [22:02:49] * drewinthehead hates java
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- [22:58:58] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [23:24:23] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-06-13-where-2-bof&diff=0&oldid=6292 * Tantek * (+93)
- [23:27:19] <mfbot>
[[screencasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6293 * Tantek * (+86) added top level link to Live Clipboard screencasts
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.