IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-05-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [10:06:27] * mflogbot (n=PircBot@213.235.239.37) has joined #microformats
- [10:06:27] * Topic is 'add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
- [10:06:27] * Set by TantekC on Sat Feb 25 20:49:23 CET 2006
- [10:06:27] <jibot>
mflogbot is logging #microformats (http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot)
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- [10:50:03] * Set by TantekC on Sat Feb 25 20:49:23 CET 2006
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- [12:12:28] <trovster>
If viewing a site on a mobile phone, is there anything you can do to import it into their address book, when they load the page?
- [12:19:03] <C9>
it'd be dependent on the phone and how it sees contact data in general. Since I doubt any current phone has the concept of an hcard the best you could hope for was a vcard translation to mobile addy. [/gwag]
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- [12:28:40] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6460 * ChrisCasciano * (-6073) reverting to remove spam
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- [12:38:39] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
- [12:39:06] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:1148540542" with an expiry time of infinite: Spam
- [12:39:37] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:rest/property": spam
- [12:39:43] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "xfn-実装": spam
- [12:39:54] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:icalendar-implementations": spam
- [12:40:05] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:relpayment-research": spam
- [12:40:21] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:faq": spam
- [12:40:52] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) blocked "User:1148540466" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [12:41:28] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:ap-feedback": spam
- [12:41:34] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:multilingual-examples": spam
- [12:41:40] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-errata": spam
- [12:42:11] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:hcalendar-irc-meetup-20060225": spam
- [12:42:42] <mfbot>
[[vcard-errata]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata&diff=0&oldid=6461 * RobertBachmann * (-6073) Reverted edit of 1148540466, changed back to last version by Tantek
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- [12:54:59] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [12:55:25] * kingryan just finished presenting at www2006
- [12:56:50] <jcgregorio>
w00t!
- [12:56:53] <jcgregorio>
how did it go?
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- [12:59:14] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [13:12:44] <mfbot>
[[presentations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=6462 * RyanKing * (+273) added www2006 tutorial
- [13:12:51] <kingryan>
jcgregorio, it went really well
- [13:13:07] <kingryan>
I was a bit nervous, because at the beginning, TBL was sitting in the first row!
- [13:13:24] <kingryan>
but, his phone rang and he walked out after a few minutes
- [13:14:23] <gsnedders>
I wish I could've got down to WWW2006
- [13:14:39] <gsnedders>
but with school, no way for me to get there
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- [13:19:42] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [13:26:28] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:26:28] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [13:50:17] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [14:33:17] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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- [14:42:12] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [15:06:36] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [15:10:03] * briansuda (n=briansud@wg.eicc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [15:10:03] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [15:15:50] * Remi (n=remi@c207.134.44-17.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:18:24] <dglazkov>
http://barcamp.org/hCamp
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- [15:47:18] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [15:49:51] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:32:56] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
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- [16:48:31] <mfbot>
[[rel-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=6463 * Jweeks * (+0) FAQ -
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- [16:49:06] <factoryjoe>
tantek: so...??
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- [17:08:26] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [17:10:22] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2447P029.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [17:10:22] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
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- [17:33:31] <dglazkov>
Hixie -- will Wed night work for you?
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- [17:33:55] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [19:29:46] <mfbot>
[[vote-links-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-faq&diff=0&oldid=6464 * Evan * (+0)
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- [19:32:38] * evan_ is now known as evanpro
- [19:32:54] <evanpro>
that was me
- [19:33:11] <evanpro>
So I'm bummed that my question about rel-tag was never answered
- [19:33:18] <evanpro>
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues <-- on there
- [19:45:06] <KevinMarks>
let me look
- [19:51:38] <KevinMarks>
ah, that is deliberate
- [19:52:06] <KevinMarks>
rel-tag can't really anticipate how otehr fromats might delineate taggable entities
- [19:52:14] <KevinMarks>
so it is left open so they can specify it
- [19:52:29] <KevinMarks>
see xfolk, hreview and hatom fro xamples of how this is done
- [19:52:35] <KevinMarks>
and rel-directory too
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- [20:32:55] <tantek>
evanpro - yes, that is by design
- [20:33:28] <tantek>
e.g. hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom, xFolk all define tag association boundaries
- [20:34:54] <evanpro>
is there an extractable pattern?
- [20:42:12] <tantek>
there actually doesn't have to be
- [20:42:14] <tantek>
the point is
- [20:42:19] <tantek>
that even if you just treat it for the page
- [20:42:23] <tantek>
it is semantically correct
- [20:42:40] <tantek>
as *some content* on that page is tagged with that tag
- [20:42:55] <tantek>
getting the extra detail on what in particular is an added bonus
- [20:43:11] <tantek>
so if you need to do it generically, just treat it as page level and you'll be fine
- [20:43:22] <tantek>
if you want to do something more with specific microformats, then do that
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- [20:50:40] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [21:40:52] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [22:45:38] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
- [22:49:29] <RobertBachmann>
hi pnhChris
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- [23:11:59] <pnhChris>
RobertBachmann: heya
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- [23:16:22] <RobertBachmann>
pnhChris: Regarding multiple feeds in an XHTML document, I've thought about it today and requiring an XHTML id attribute for each hfeed seems to be only straightforward solution.
- [23:17:51] <pnhChris>
.. .along with making hfeed required?
- [23:19:55] <pnhChris>
and fairly strict parsing rules
- [23:20:29] <RobertBachmann>
yes. Althought we could make an exception for pages for pages which contain only one feed, but this seems like introducing yet-another-special-case.
- [23:20:59] <pnhChris>
the problem is that those exceptions blow up in your face when dealing with document changes over time
- [23:21:27] <pnhChris>
you're just shoving the need to be specific down the line
- [23:22:00] <pnhChris>
say i have a blog with a single hatom feed and no hfeed element...
- [23:22:27] <pnhChris>
how do i add a link feed without disrupting everyone subscribed to the main feed
- [23:23:59] <RobertBachmann>
yes that would be problematic. So no exception.
- [23:24:15] <pnhChris>
/me is really beginning if the subscription use case can really be solved via embedded markup
- [23:24:25] <pnhChris>
er
- [23:24:32] * pnhChris tests
- [23:24:34] <pnhChris>
hmm
- [23:24:43] <pnhChris>
... is really beginning to wonder
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- [23:26:09] <pnhChris>
saying there's no exception is great
- [23:26:39] <pnhChris>
but then we're back to the problem of selecting and consuming based off of a specific fragment id
- [23:27:27] <pnhChris>
and needing rules for when the url is incomplete or when things change
- [23:29:12] <pnhChris>
i dunno.. i don't really have a great solution for that.. probably something that needs to be raised to the feed reader / browser / etc dev folks
- [23:29:19] <tantek>
don't optimize for the parsers
- [23:29:24] <tantek>
optimize for the publishers
- [23:29:38] <tantek>
the exception is not an exception - it is actually the common case
- [23:29:42] <tantek>
thus it is a shortcut
- [23:29:54] <tantek>
ok, so what am I missing here
- [23:29:59] <pnhChris>
sure, its the common case
- [23:30:03] <tantek>
if there are multiple hfeed elements on a page
- [23:30:09] <pnhChris>
but i can't surf without finding the other case as well
- [23:30:16] <tantek>
then simply merge them into a single Atom feed with SOURCE semantics
- [23:30:19] <tantek>
why is that so hard?
- [23:31:50] <RobertBachmann>
ok I've got two hAtom feeds. One with title "Foo" and one with title "Bar" ... which title do I use for my atom feed?
- [23:32:18] <tantek>
the combined atom feed represents a synthesis of all the feeds on the page
- [23:32:44] <tantek>
thus it would be perfectly reasonable to synthesize the title of atom feed from the title of the page
- [23:32:54] <pnhChris>
but that's not what i want to subscribe to
- [23:33:04] <tantek>
you can pick
- [23:33:14] <tantek>
if you just subscribe to the whole page, you get the synthesized combined feed
- [23:33:27] <tantek>
if you subscribe to a specific frag id of an hfeed, then you get just that feed
- [23:33:34] <tantek>
the point is that both make sense
- [23:33:41] <tantek>
and that you can programmatically make both work
- [23:33:49] <tantek>
I'm still not seeing the problem here
- [23:35:08] <pnhChris>
if i subscribe to a "whole page" with one feed.. .and then someone decides to add a flickr feed or a podcast then what?
- [23:35:19] <tantek>
then you get everything
- [23:35:26] <tantek>
you can always change what you subscribe to later
- [23:35:45] <tantek>
an intelligent aggregator would notice that your single feed that you subscribed to now has multiple sources
- [23:35:48] <tantek>
and let you pick
- [23:35:56] <pnhChris>
show me one
- [23:36:06] <pnhChris>
i guess that's the issue for the most part
- [23:36:07] <tantek>
we're talking about Atom 1.0 here folks
- [23:36:30] <tantek>
lack of an implementation is no reason to corrupt a data format (or place unnecessary restrictions/requirements on publishers)
- [23:36:44] <tantek>
this is using a feature in Atom 1.0 as it was meant to be used
- [23:36:58] <pnhChris>
but as a publisher i can't publish under the current spec
- [23:37:00] <pnhChris>
or
- [23:37:01] <pnhChris>
well
- [23:37:03] <pnhChris>
its pointless
- [23:37:03] <tantek>
yes you can
- [23:37:05] <tantek>
that's my point
- [23:37:07] <tantek>
?
- [23:38:09] <tantek>
as a publisher, feel free to be as conservative/verbose as you want to be
- [23:38:17] <tantek>
publish with explicit hfeeds with ids
- [23:39:22] <pnhChris>
but if there's no meaningful way, or outline for a path for doing selection like that by a user ... that's my big hangup
- [23:40:03] <pnhChris>
i konw we're early in this whole thing
- [23:40:13] <tantek>
mark it up as semantically as you can
- [23:40:20] <pnhChris>
and no one can auto discover anything and must be told these things exist
- [23:40:28] <tantek>
there will inevitably be multiple attempts at good user interfaces for these things
- [23:40:35] <tantek>
huh?
- [23:40:41] <pnhChris>
i just see single feeds per page under the current spec as a workable solution
- [23:40:44] <pnhChris>
right now
- [23:40:53] <tantek>
just use traditional rel="alternate" links and point to the transform
- [23:41:00] <pnhChris>
but have trouble bridging the gap to using multiple
- [23:41:02] <tantek>
discoverability is a solved problem
- [23:41:23] <tantek>
right, multiple feeds per page were design to be possible (via multiple hfeed elements)
- [23:41:37] <tantek>
but postponed from v0.1 in order to solve the simple case first
- [23:41:56] <tantek>
who has tried marking up their actual multifeed blog with hAtom and run across this problem?
- [23:42:02] <tantek>
let's get the examples!
- [23:42:06] <pnhChris>
um
- [23:42:12] <tantek>
so we can use those to push hAtom v0.2
- [23:42:31] <pnhChris>
i've got a pending example when i have time to redesign pnh
- [23:42:34] * briansud1 (n=briansud@82-41-20-200.cable.ubr03.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:42:42] <tantek>
awesome
- [23:42:44] <pnhChris>
which uses a few random hfeeds
- [23:42:58] <pnhChris>
but the plan is to wrap pages in feed elements ala chunkysoup
- [23:43:04] <pnhChris>
but i don't have the time at the moment
- [23:43:16] <pnhChris>
which is why i put together those short cases
- [23:43:27] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
- [23:44:36] <pnhChris>
i also have avoided marking up the link feeds as hatom on chunkysoup because i'm not clear there would be much of a point
- [23:45:27] <pnhChris>
which is why i brought up the question before
- [23:47:30] <RobertBachmann>
I don't understand why it would be a problem for publisher to add <div class="hfeed" id="whatever">...</div>
- [23:48:16] <pnhChris>
the worst case scenario as i saw it would be adding those feeds and having the current tools (in their infancy that they are) screw up what someone is subscribing to because of source order or some other rules they're (ok, well only the xlst file) are using
- [23:48:52] <pnhChris>
but that's an author issue.. has little to do with the spec
- [23:49:02] <pnhChris>
other then me wanting to see it more defined
- [23:51:20] <RobertBachmann>
however joining all hfeeds into a single feed seems to be a better idea in comparision to just using the first hfeed (as the xslt does right now).
- [23:53:39] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=6465 * RobertBachmann * (+172) hAtom2Atom - Join hfeed's
- [23:55:39] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
- [23:57:30] <RobertBachmann>
IMO both multiple feeds and also nested hfeed's/hentry's aren't realy important for hAtom 0.2. We should solve the more basic problems first.
- [23:58:03] <pnhChris>
tantek: if you take a spin through the examples i put together there are a few cases where we may need some explicit rules
- [23:58:20] <pnhChris>
er... yeah.. roberts onto it
- [23:59:25] <pnhChris>
or rules about using the body
- [23:59:28] <pnhChris>
view-source:http://placenamehere.com/mf/hatom_tests/test_4c.html
- [23:59:43] <pnhChris>
er
- [23:59:46] <pnhChris>
not that one
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