IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:06] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) Quit ("Free at last!")
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  3. [00:11:27] <pnhChris> kingryan: i kinda just summed up where i'm at on it to the list
  4. [00:13:25] <kingryan> cool
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  8. [00:53:40] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  9. [00:58:07] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=6579 * RyanKing * (+266) resolved issue about multiple URLs
  10. [00:59:36] <tantek> odd, how does the properties list suggest that multiple urls are not allowed?
  11. [00:59:44] <kingryan> no idea
  12. [01:01:42] <pnhChris> it really doesn't suggest much of anything
  13. [01:02:27] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
  14. [01:02:40] <pnhChris> mmmm.. beer
  15. [01:03:43] <mfbot> [[Template:OpenIssue]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:OpenIssue * RyanKing * (+112) added open issue marker
  16. [01:05:39] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=6580 * RyanKing * (+70) added open issue markers
  17. [01:06:50] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=6581 * RyanKing * (+42) added open issue markers
  18. [01:07:33] <pnhChris> {{OpenIssue}} we need a designer up in here
  19. [01:07:39] <kingryan> :D
  20. [01:07:42] <kingryan> yeah, we do
  21. [01:08:02] <kingryan> you volunteering, pnhChris?
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  24. [01:15:55] <pnhChris> uh
  25. [01:15:56] <pnhChris> no
  26. [01:16:14] <pnhChris> and i found a bug in my feeds test markup
  27. [01:19:11] <pnhChris> just a repeated id on the entries.. so it didn't mean much
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  49. [04:59:54] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  50. [05:07:18] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  51. [05:07:19] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  54. [05:11:34] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  55. [05:26:43] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  56. [05:26:44] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  70. [08:04:50] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  76. [08:45:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  78. [08:45:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  85. [09:14:32] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  89. [10:17:01] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  94. [11:36:00] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  100. [13:33:48] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  101. [13:56:35] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  102. [13:56:36] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  103. [14:01:26] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  104. [14:01:26] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  105. [14:10:26] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  106. [14:20:02] <pnhChris> hmmm
  107. [14:20:14] <pnhChris> i never did see one of my mails to the list last night
  108. [14:21:09] <pnhChris> well its there in the archives
  109. [14:21:11] <pnhChris> odd
  110. [14:21:13] <pnhChris> oh well
  111. [14:22:05] * pnhChris , while in the archives, also sees to many people using "reply" to start new threads
  112. [14:36:35] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  113. [14:58:46] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  114. [14:58:47] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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  116. [15:03:16] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  124. [16:32:20] <bewest> uf mentioned on IBM website: http://www.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/index.html#Geocoding_Examples
  125. [16:36:26] <cgriego> bewest: that isn't the IBM website...
  126. [16:36:37] <bewest> oh
  127. [16:36:37] <bewest> um
  128. [16:36:39] <bewest> wrong bufer
  129. [16:36:40] <bewest> :-)
  130. [16:36:52] <bewest> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/x-matters44.html
  131. [16:37:07] <bewest> it's an article on pipeable web services
  132. [16:39:35] * briansud1 is now known as briansuda
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  135. [16:41:54] <cgriego> is no one working on a Microformats bundle for TextMate? I've been thinking about it and I haven't found any references anywhere.
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  145. [17:20:36] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  146. [17:21:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  147. [17:25:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  148. [17:29:20] <hober> yo tantek
  149. [17:29:33] <hober> re: pingerati & eventful
  150. [17:29:48] <hober> if you could send us the original URL instead of the x2v-ified URL, that would be awesome
  151. [17:30:03] <hober> (our internal microformats parser is almost ready for use)
  152. [17:30:43] <tantek> yo hober!
  153. [17:31:00] <tantek> that's great to hear!
  154. [17:31:21] <tantek> yes, you will potentially get higher fidelity data from the hCalendar rather than the iCalendar, since for some information, the transform has to "dumb it down" for iCalendar
  155. [17:31:31] <hober> right, exactly
  156. [17:31:34] <tantek> e.g. ahem, hCard embedded in the "location" :)
  157. [17:31:41] <hober> exactly.
  158. [17:31:59] <hober> I'm holding off on patching x2v to generate this vvenue stuff until the draft actually hits IETF-land
  159. [17:33:34] <tantek> right. do you know when there might be a public draft that folks can discuss?
  160. [17:33:39] <tantek> even a public preliminary draft?
  161. [17:34:03] <hober> "next week" is what I'm hearing, but that's highly unofficial
  162. [17:34:09] <tantek> i bet briansuda would be more than happy to parse hCards in the "location" field of events and turn them into VVENUEs
  163. [17:34:15] <hober> indeed
  164. [17:34:18] <tantek> assuming that didn't break current .ics consumers
  165. [17:34:23] <tantek> which is a big assumption
  166. [17:34:37] <hober> The VVENUE field names are closer to vCard than they were a few weeks ago
  167. [17:34:41] <tantek> of course if it does break current .ics consumers, then VVENUE is kind of dead in the water
  168. [17:34:49] <hober> I had a big argument in-office about that :)
  169. [17:34:52] <tantek> that is good to hear
  170. [17:34:57] <tantek> i support you on that all the way :)
  171. [17:35:08] <tantek> let me know how i can help
  172. [17:35:08] <hober> It shouldn't break .ics consumers, but it probably does in some cases
  173. [17:35:15] <hober> will do
  174. [17:48:00] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-38-79.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  175. [18:01:34] <briansuda> hober, do you have a link to any info about vvenue? yo have peaked my interest
  176. [18:04:25] <hober> briansuda: I don't think there's any public link at the moment, but if you want to see what iCalendar+VVENUE looks like, pull up any of the iCalendar feeds on eventful.com.
  177. [18:04:40] <hober> there is a draft spec, which will hopefully become public next week
  178. [18:05:42] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  179. [18:05:43] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  180. [18:05:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  185. [18:27:56] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  186. [18:28:07] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
  187. [18:29:13] <bewest> kingryan: is that offer for forwarding of uf pings still open?
  188. [18:29:19] <kingryan> yeah
  189. [18:29:37] <bewest> I asked around and there seems to be some interest
  190. [18:29:42] <kingryan> talk to KevinMarks
  191. [18:29:47] <kingryan> he's managing that
  192. [18:29:48] <bewest> ok
  193. [18:29:56] <kingryan> he can hook it up in a matter of minutes
  194. [18:30:02] <bewest> ok
  195. [18:30:10] <kingryan> (when he gets online)
  196. [18:30:10] <bewest> we won't be ready that quickly
  197. [18:30:18] <bewest> hopefully we'll have a search in about a week
  198. [18:30:40] <bewest> I'm trying to convince them to open it as a public webservice
  199. [18:30:49] <bewest> think it's working
  200. [18:31:00] <kingryan> nice
  201. [18:40:24] <tantek> bewest, as far as sending and receiving pings to/from Pingerati, please check out the contact/support links on http://pingerati.net
  202. [18:43:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  203. [18:43:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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  206. [19:15:14] <kingryan> hey briansuda
  207. [19:15:24] <kingryan> have you done category/tag support in x2v?
  208. [19:19:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=6582 * RyanKing * (+17) just fixing some wiki formating
  209. [19:19:40] <briansuda> kingryan, for which format? hCalendar? i have category support, but it doesn't use relTag, it uses class="category"
  210. [19:19:45] <kingryan> hcard
  211. [19:19:58] <briansuda> somewhere i proposed to pull from relTag, but it was nixed.
  212. [19:20:05] <kingryan> well, I wanna talk about hcard first, then hcalendar
  213. [19:20:14] <kingryan> really? you have a pointer to that?
  214. [19:20:36] <tantek> briansuda, I'm surprised as well
  215. [19:20:59] <briansuda> i know it was on the list, so let me find it.
  216. [19:20:59] <tantek> personally I prefer to markup hCard categories with *both* class name of "category" and rel="tag" links
  217. [19:21:19] <kingryan> have we defined what rel-tag's mean in an hCard or hCalendadr?
  218. [19:21:26] <tantek> yes
  219. [19:21:29] <kingryan> can the be considered categories?
  220. [19:21:30] <tantek> they mean category :D
  221. [19:22:00] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-November/002039.html
  222. [19:22:14] <kingryan> so <a rel="tag" href="..../foo">blah blah</a> converts to "CATEGORY:foo" ?
  223. [19:23:19] <kingryan> CATEGORIES*
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  232. [20:04:01] <tantek_> brian, looks like Chris was making a UI argument, not a semantic argument
  233. [20:05:19] <briansuda> well how do we want to proceed?
  234. [20:06:34] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  235. [20:08:34] * tantek_ goes back to read that thread
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  237. [20:21:38] * kingryan|lunch is now known as kingryan
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  239. [20:21:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  240. [20:22:13] <kingryan> briansuda, tantek: I think we need to specify that you can use tags for categories
  241. [20:22:21] <kingryan> I can't seem to find anything of the sort on the wiki
  242. [20:22:30] <kingryan> plus, I'd like to write some test cases
  243. [20:22:44] <briansuda> i had brought that up back in November, proposing just that.
  244. [20:23:03] <briansuda> i think it is semantically equivalent, we just need to know how to represent them
  245. [20:23:07] <tantek> kingryan, you're right
  246. [20:23:11] <tantek> ok i reviewed the thread
  247. [20:23:14] <kingryan> well, to be fair, your question was really about your implementation, briansuda
  248. [20:23:20] <briansuda> as well as rel="directory"
  249. [20:23:21] <kingryan> not about the format
  250. [20:23:47] <tantek> looks like pretty much everyone except Chris Messina agreed that categories are tags
  251. [20:23:55] <tantek> most people also agreed that tags are categories
  252. [20:24:11] <tantek> either way it seems reasonable
  253. [20:24:39] * markp (n=markp@adsl-150-155-189.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  254. [20:24:40] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=6583 * RyanKing * (-93) tests moved
  255. [20:24:58] <tantek> one distinction in parsing
  256. [20:26:21] <tantek> if you have say <a rel="tag" href="http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard" class="category">hCard</a>, according to rel-tag, the tag is "hcard" (last segment of the URL), and according to hCard, the category is "hCard" (not difference capitalization respectively)
  257. [20:26:30] <briansuda> it seems reasonable to me too, but what are we looking for class="category" AND rel="tag" and/or either? and then when rel="tag" what are we looking at, the human readable text or the tagspace/tag
  258. [20:26:52] <kingryan> do we really want to have both?
  259. [20:27:02] <kingryan> I thought we would get rid of the category class name
  260. [20:27:03] <kingryan> ?
  261. [20:27:08] <tantek> good question
  262. [20:27:17] <tantek> we could keep "category" class name but deprecate it
  263. [20:27:19] <briansuda> well we started making complex rules for hanging class="category" on an UL or OL element
  264. [20:27:25] <briansuda> we can't do that with TAGS
  265. [20:27:40] <tantek> um, I think we ditched such complex rules
  266. [20:27:49] <briansuda> and people will publish event data on other places besides blogs
  267. [20:27:56] <tantek> brian I think you mean class="categories" (plural) was attempted on UL / OL
  268. [20:28:09] <tantek> huh? this has nothing to do with blogs
  269. [20:28:36] <tantek> briansuda, we had thought for a while to possibly use plural class names on a parent element, but that has been rejected
  270. [20:28:38] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  271. [20:28:39] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  272. [20:28:44] <tantek> it turns out to not be useful enough to keep
  273. [20:29:00] <tantek> and it is simpler to just specify directly on an element what it is for
  274. [20:29:06] <tantek> rather than on its parent etc.
  275. [20:29:21] <briansuda> i think X2V still supports that - we should clarify that on the wiki somewhere
  276. [20:29:32] <tantek> BTW, Welcome Enric
  277. [20:29:40] <tantek> X2V still supports what in particular?
  278. [20:29:46] <Enric> Thanks Tantek ;)
  279. [20:30:10] <briansuda> the parent node on OL & UL for plural items like nickname, category, and a few others
  280. [20:30:23] * briansuda means class="" on OL & UL
  281. [20:30:35] <tantek> yikes
  282. [20:30:44] <tantek> I know we explicitly ditched that on the wiki a while ago
  283. [20:30:55] <tantek> maybe forgot to do full circle and remove it from X2V?
  284. [20:33:16] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  285. [20:34:01] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=6584 * Enric * (+37) People on irc -
  286. [20:35:37] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6585 * Tantek * (+160) added @media speakers page
  287. [20:39:50] <kingryan> so, for tags in hcard, shall we add a section explaining how tags are used as categories in hCard?
  288. [20:40:26] <briansuda> well how do we plan to actually use tags?
  289. [20:40:40] <briansuda> the human readable section or the tag from tagspace/<tag>
  290. [20:40:51] <kingryan> same as always
  291. [20:41:34] * pnhChris wonders if <a rel="tag">something</a> is a valid tag
  292. [20:42:11] <briansuda> and if we deprecate class="category" then you are back to people complaining the same way they did with hResume skills. we still use class="skills" so why not class="category" rel="tag"
  293. [20:42:24] <kingryan> no, its not pnhChris
  294. [20:42:50] <briansuda> because if we are now pulling ALL rel="tags" from inside a class="vevent | vcard" then we are back to the same issues of pulling all hrefs without the class="url"
  295. [20:43:16] <tantek> briansuda, not quite
  296. [20:43:28] <tantek> we still have scoping by the nearest microformat root class name
  297. [20:43:36] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  298. [20:43:49] <tantek> for now we might as well keep class="category"
  299. [20:43:55] <tantek> and permit rel-tag as well
  300. [20:43:57] <tantek> so *either* works
  301. [20:45:33] <briansuda> if class="category" and rel="tag" we look one place, with just class="category" we look another, i can handle that
  302. [20:45:53] <briansuda> the whole scoping by nearest root class name, i have issues with
  303. [20:46:05] <kingryan> what issues?
  304. [20:46:11] <briansuda> that means that every microformat parse then needs to be aware of ALL root class names.
  305. [20:46:18] <kingryan> not it doesn't
  306. [20:46:24] <briansuda> right now hCalendar should NOT need to know about hCard
  307. [20:47:12] <briansuda> well then define 'nearest', if you only know about one root class
  308. [20:47:38] <tantek> briansuda, I disagree
  309. [20:47:45] <kingryan> tags are sloppy in that you don't have to know precisely the scope, but they can still work
  310. [20:47:52] <tantek> we're on a path to encouraging folks to publish hCalendar location as hCard
  311. [20:48:09] <tantek> and that is hopefully such a common case that any decent hCalendar parser should handle it
  312. [20:48:36] <tantek> kingryan is also right about the sloppiness of tags
  313. [20:48:55] <tantek> even without precise scoping, specific examples do tend to make sense across root boundaries
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  325. [21:34:51] <edsu> is it me, or is the microformats search a bit slow/unfunctional?
  326. [21:34:58] <edsu> http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/
  327. [21:35:09] <edsu> i'm on a weird network, so perhaps it's just me
  328. [21:36:42] <kingryan> edsu, its going to depend on what you search fo
  329. [21:36:44] <kingryan> for*
  330. [21:36:53] <kingryan> our implementation is still a bit naive
  331. [21:37:13] <edsu> i'm doing a search for: dan chudnov
  332. [21:38:28] <edsu> or: ryan king
  333. [21:38:37] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
  334. [21:38:41] <edsu> :)
  335. [21:38:45] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  336. [21:38:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  337. [21:38:53] <kingryan> multi-word search is a bit slow right now
  338. [21:38:56] <kingryan> and will be for a bit
  339. [21:39:09] <edsu> ok, what're you guys using currently for the index?
  340. [21:39:29] <hober> Lucene I assume
  341. [21:39:38] <hober> (but don't actually know)
  342. [21:39:50] <edsu> yeah, that's the normal assumption
  343. [21:43:15] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  344. [21:46:02] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  345. [21:48:45] <kingryan> yeah, that is the normal assumption, isn't it?
  346. [21:51:21] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  347. [21:51:45] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=6586 * RyanKing * (+270) added partial explanation of tags in hcard
  348. [21:52:41] <e_s_p> Where 2.0 has me thinking about geo
  349. [21:53:01] <e_s_p> My typical application of geo would be a link to a mapping service
  350. [21:53:21] <kingryan> ironicall, geo was born at last year's where 2.0 conference
  351. [21:53:52] <tantek> esp, see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#geo_improvements for some current thoughts on this
  352. [21:54:16] <e_s_p> I guess the best I can do is something like <a href="mappingsvc?lat=...&long=..."><abbr ...></a>
  353. [21:54:32] <e_s_p> just put the abbrs inside the a element
  354. [21:54:46] <tantek> take a look at both the above URL and at Adactio's Austin page
  355. [21:54:48] <hober> ok, so hCalendar+(hCard'ed location) parsing question
  356. [21:55:27] <e_s_p> What I really want to do is something like <a href="">Name of place</a>
  357. [21:55:33] <hober> say you have <div class="location vcard"> ... <div class="adr">...</div> ... </div>
  358. [21:55:40] <hober> with several of the adr bits and pieces filled out
  359. [21:55:59] <tantek> esp, then use an hCard instead of geo
  360. [21:56:03] <hober> Now suppose your hCalendar parser doesn't know anything about hCard
  361. [21:56:06] <tantek> since hCard is for *named* places
  362. [21:56:13] <tantek> like restaurants etc.
  363. [21:56:15] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  364. [21:56:18] <tantek> and contains an optional geo
  365. [21:56:23] <hober> so it's pulling out location based on the text descendents of the div@class="location"
  366. [21:56:40] <hober> In my mind, it should concatenate the text nodes with whitespace placed in-between
  367. [21:56:44] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  368. [21:56:44] <tantek> that's the *simplest* it can do
  369. [21:56:53] <briansuda> hober, correct
  370. [21:56:56] <hober> so you get location = "Foo, 123 Bar St., San Diego, CA"
  371. [21:56:56] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  372. [21:56:56] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  373. [21:57:06] <kingryan> right, hober
  374. [21:57:26] <tantek> note that Technorati Microformats Search will extract hCard information from inside a "location" of an event and display it such as locality and region (city and state)
  375. [21:57:42] <tantek> I think name of location too
  376. [21:57:46] <hober> OK, just making sure everyone's on the same page WRT whitespace and "extract & concatenate all text node descendents"
  377. [21:57:50] * tantek easily forgets code he has written
  378. [21:58:07] * hober goes to complain to the right person here :)
  379. [21:58:13] <tantek> hober, you still have to follow the whitespace collapsing rules of the parent language
  380. [21:58:16] <tantek> e.g. HTML
  381. [21:58:19] <briansuda> hober, there are also general rules for class="value" where you can do some very strange concatenations as well
  382. [21:58:27] <tantek> right
  383. [21:59:05] <e_s_p> tantek: this is actually for hCards
  384. [21:59:43] <e_s_p> it's hard to defend that lat-long data is realistically human-readable
  385. [21:59:55] <tantek> e_s_p, not hard at all
  386. [22:00:00] <tantek> just go look at geocaching practices
  387. [22:00:11] <e_s_p> Oh, sure
  388. [22:00:16] <tantek> the wild wild web is iteratively solving that problem for you
  389. [22:00:24] <e_s_p> every codesystem is meaningful for specialists
  390. [22:00:34] <tantek> geocachers are not specialists
  391. [22:00:42] <tantek> it's a hobby thing
  392. [22:00:58] <tantek> i'm not saying it's "perfectly" human-readable
  393. [22:01:00] <e_s_p> For me, N 37° 24.491 is barely readable
  394. [22:01:06] <tantek> but it is realistically human-readable
  395. [22:01:08] <e_s_p> I mean, I can say it out loud
  396. [22:01:25] <e_s_p> let me put it this way
  397. [22:01:33] <e_s_p> for my audience it's gobbledygook
  398. [22:01:52] <briansuda> e_s_p, with the abbr element you could do <abbr title="23.45;56.78">Place name</abbr>
  399. [22:02:14] <tantek> then don't bother with geo for your audience
  400. [22:02:27] <tantek> geo is intrinsically number-centric
  401. [22:02:43] <tantek> either your audience wants to view numerical coordinates or not
  402. [22:02:50] <tantek> if not, then stick with "adr" and named locations
  403. [22:02:55] <e_s_p> briansuda: or <a href="mappingservice" title="123.45;71.77">place</a>
  404. [22:03:03] <tantek> like I said, read that URL I pasted
  405. [22:03:13] <tantek> you are currently iterating through the analysis already on that page
  406. [22:03:25] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#geo_improvements
  407. [22:03:30] <e_s_p> tantek: that's what IRC is for
  408. [22:03:37] <e_s_p> All right
  409. [22:04:08] <tantek> AFAIK, IRC is not a substitute for RTFM KTHX
  410. [22:04:14] <tantek> and view source on http://austin.adactio.com/
  411. [22:05:18] <e_s_p> I'm not sure a brainstorming page counts as a manual
  412. [22:05:50] <kingryan> no one claimed it was
  413. [22:06:54] <kingryan> briansuda, tantek: did we ever figure out what we want to do with rel-tag-as-category in hcard?
  414. [22:06:55] * e_s_p is keeping quiet to save bits
  415. [22:07:17] <kingryan> is class="category" required? optional?
  416. [22:07:35] <KevinMarks> Read The Future Microformat?
  417. [22:08:21] <briansuda> i say required for class="category"
  418. [22:08:43] <kingryan> do you have in mind a use of tags inside hcard that aren't categories?
  419. [22:08:47] <briansuda> i am trying to draft a good example why all this scoping is a bad idea
  420. [22:09:02] <tantek> i think class="category" OR rel-tag is sufficient
  421. [22:09:22] <briansuda> same as class="skill" AND rel="tag"
  422. [22:09:33] <tantek> we could do that also for now
  423. [22:09:36] <tantek> and loosen it up later
  424. [22:09:53] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit (Excess Flood)
  425. [22:09:55] <kingryan> so, category w/ optional rel-tag?
  426. [22:10:21] <briansuda> if there is a rel-Tag, then there is a different place to look than if there is just a class="category"
  427. [22:10:22] <kingryan> I think I can agree with that
  428. [22:10:37] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  429. [22:11:17] <briansuda> the problem goes back to the situation where there is an @href with in a class="vcard" then ALL of those are pulled in a URL, when that is NOT the case.
  430. [22:12:22] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6587 * RyanKing * (+199) added a section about using tags for categories
  431. [22:12:35] <tantek> briansuda, same thing with class="value"
  432. [22:12:41] <tantek> it is just another place to look for the value
  433. [22:13:17] <tantek> unioning the set of class="category" elements and set of rel-tags is not any conceptually different than unioning the set of class="note" or class="value" elements
  434. [22:14:02] <briansuda> sure there is. class value is a child of note, there is no child when we are dealing with relTag
  435. [22:16:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=6588 * RyanKing * (+268) added some explanation about tags as categories
  436. [22:17:14] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=6589 * RyanKing * (-14) removing open issue marker
  437. [22:17:41] <tantek> brian, you missed my point
  438. [22:17:59] <tantek> "note" requires than any number of class="note" elements are all appended for the NOTE property in vCard
  439. [22:18:13] <tantek> similarly with any number of class="value" elements inside an element like "tel" etc.
  440. [22:18:42] * vant (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving...")
  441. [22:18:50] <briansuda> i was unaware that we are concatenating multiple values
  442. [22:19:13] <briansuda> we talked about taking first instances when only one was property could be allowed in vCard
  443. [22:19:33] <kingryan> multiple category properties in hCard become one CATEGORIES property in vCard, no?
  444. [22:19:56] <briansuda> because that was a pluralize to singular issue
  445. [22:20:04] <kingryan> yes, but CATEGORIES takes multiple values, so we singularized the name and use multiple instances of it
  446. [22:20:42] <briansuda> right, but NOTE was singular to start with.
  447. [22:21:01] <briansuda> same as FN, if there are two of those we ONLY take the first... now we talk about concating them?
  448. [22:21:15] <kingryan> right, but there was apparently a decision made to allow multiple note's in hcard
  449. [22:21:23] <briansuda> do you have a reference?
  450. [22:21:31] <kingryan> no, no, we're not going to concatenate FN
  451. [22:21:40] <briansuda> that one slipped me by.
  452. [22:21:52] <kingryan> its just that multiple category instances become one CATEGORIES in vCard
  453. [22:22:00] <kingryan> *apparently*
  454. [22:22:08] <kingryan> I'm going by what tantek is saying
  455. [22:23:43] <tantek> briansuda, we talked about concatenating multiple notes long ago, like 1.5 years ago
  456. [22:23:54] <tantek> so it may have been something that was overlooked
  457. [22:24:11] <tantek> this was due to the nature of how the "note" property worked
  458. [22:24:14] <kingryan> I can't seem to find any documentation of that on the wiki
  459. [22:24:14] <tantek> and its semantics
  460. [22:24:54] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  461. [22:25:15] <briansuda> 1.5 years ago, that might be why i don't remember!
  462. [22:25:38] <Enric> I have a question on hAtom...
  463. [22:25:41] <briansuda> kingryan, we should make a note of this note idea on the wiki and make a test case for it...
  464. [22:25:50] <kingryan> certainly
  465. [22:26:03] <factoryjoe> Enric: you just stepped into the middle of a heated debate on "notes"
  466. [22:26:17] <Enric> Ahhh...should I come back later?
  467. [22:26:37] <briansuda> OK, so now that we have gotten that issue settled, how does that related to your original thought (tantek: unioning the set of class="category" elements and set of rel-tags is not any conceptually different than unioning the set of class="note" or class="value" elements)
  468. [22:26:38] * tantek can't find it in hcard or hcard-parsing
  469. [22:26:42] <kingryan> actually, we're talking about categories, but close enough factoryjoe
  470. [22:26:51] <kingryan> and this isn't "heated"
  471. [22:26:59] <tantek> it's just vigorous ;)
  472. [22:27:10] <kingryan> I'd prefer "lively"
  473. [22:27:11] <Enric> Well, I should look more into hAtom and do some shopping...so I'll see if I still have the question later..
  474. [22:27:12] <tantek> (as opposed to rigorous ;) )
  475. [22:27:28] <tantek> certainly "lively" is better than "snidely"
  476. [22:27:29] <kingryan> well, if we were rigorous, we'd have documented this already
  477. [22:27:38] <factoryjoe> talk about semantics... jeez
  478. [22:27:53] <tantek> it's that 3:30pm punchiness
  479. [22:28:03] <tantek> Enric, check out rel-enclosure
  480. [22:28:09] <kingryan> we will, thank you very much, factoryjoe
  481. [22:28:13] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  482. [22:28:19] <Enric> that's what I thought...ok, thanks.
  483. [22:28:42] * briansuda considers it 5:30 quitin' time
  484. [22:28:43] <tantek> briansuda, merging multiple elements into one property value is the overall common theme
  485. [22:29:01] <tantek> since categories / rel-tags have no order
  486. [22:29:11] <briansuda> ok, i'm with you so far
  487. [22:29:14] <kingryan> briansuda, tantek: I can write up some note and category test cases if someone wants to document the note thing on the wiki (I've already documented the tags-as-categories thing)
  488. [22:29:18] <tantek> you can union them by parsing one first then the other, or at the same time etc.
  489. [22:29:37] * tantek is scratching is head to figure out where he might have written down the "note" thing
  490. [22:29:48] <briansuda> i would agree, except now we have promoted ANY relTag that happens to be "nearby" into the microformat
  491. [22:30:07] * tantek has bandwidth issues - unable to write everything down as fast as it pops into his head
  492. [22:30:12] <kingryan> not *nearby*, *contained*
  493. [22:30:18] <tantek> right kingryan
  494. [22:30:25] <briansuda> even contained...
  495. [22:30:41] <kingryan> but, if you look at what I wrote on the wiki... I said we require class="category"
  496. [22:30:53] <kingryan> which was what I thought we'd compromised/settled on
  497. [22:32:08] <briansuda> if you have an hCard inside an hCalendar (as location) and have a series of "categories" relevant to that location, (eg Food, pizza, etc) and i mark those up with class="category", but maybe the blog post is also about a birthday, so i also add rel-tag of "birthday", now if we are talking about also pulling any relTag, then that organization now has a category of "birthday"
  498. [22:32:08] <tantek> kingryan, yes, that is fine for now
  499. [22:32:35] <Enric> anyhow, I would like to come back at some point and discuss a format & structure for audio/video/rich media types...I see this as orthogonal to hAtom not as one replacing the other.
  500. [22:32:57] <tantek> briansuda, no, because that rel-tag of birthday would be outside the organization hCard
  501. [22:33:11] <kingryan> enric: theres *tons* of documentation/research of this on the wiki, please read and add to it
  502. [22:33:15] <tantek> Enric, what do you need more than rel-enclosure
  503. [22:33:18] <tantek> ?
  504. [22:33:29] <tantek> check out http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-examples to start with
  505. [22:33:54] <briansuda> i don't we should tell people how to construct their HTML pages
  506. [22:35:06] <kingryan> I'm not sure I understand your point, briansuda
  507. [22:35:08] <Enric> What I'm looking at is a <DIV class="hVlog"> enclosure that allows easy identification and moving of a rich media enclosure and extension of it. There's several utiliities like podpresss defining their own <DIV class="podpress"...>, etc. And it makes sense to me for a standard.
  508. [22:35:50] <Enric> Now I don't see how this replaces the hentry that would be the container above that.
  509. [22:36:16] <kingryan> well, the first step towards this would be to document these existing practices, Enric
  510. [22:36:18] <briansuda> tantek said "that rel-tag of birthday would be outside the organization hCard", we shouldn't tell people how to write their HTML so that it is OUTSIDE the hCard
  511. [22:36:26] <Enric> and the <a href rel="enclosure" would be below the <DIV class="hVlog"
  512. [22:36:56] <Enric> Sure, I have my own utility, podpress that I know of and I can look for more examples and document their usage.
  513. [22:37:01] <tantek> Enric, please read media-info-examples as suggested
  514. [22:37:05] <kingryan> so, you're saying that people should be able to put even tags inside of the location property, briansuda?
  515. [22:37:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  516. [22:37:19] <kingryan> and have them apply to the event, not the location?
  517. [22:37:24] <Enric> I will, Tantek, thanks.
  518. [22:37:38] <tantek> briansuda, people don't put birthday tags inside an unrelated organization hCard - that's a specious example
  519. [22:37:49] <tantek> people put tags where they are relevant
  520. [22:38:01] <tantek> and yeah, if they put them inside a blog post they apply to the blog post
  521. [22:38:13] <tantek> if they put them inside an hCalendar event they apply to the event
  522. [22:38:20] <kingryan> why are we still discussing this? don't we already have a compromise?
  523. [22:38:23] <tantek> if they put them inside an hCard contact they apply to the contact
  524. [22:38:37] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  525. [22:39:29] <briansuda> i would begin to agree except that an hCalendar parser does not know that they are "Inside" other microformated content, unless it is aware of EVERY microformat, which is impossible.
  526. [22:40:02] <briansuda> i am happy to support rel-Tag WITH class="category", but rel-Tag alone i would be dubious of supporting
  527. [22:40:24] <tantek> it's simple enough for hCalendar because it only really has to look for nested hCards
  528. [22:40:38] <tantek> then start with that
  529. [22:40:47] <briansuda> but what about hAtom, and other microformats....
  530. [22:40:51] <tantek> and we'll gain some implementation / publishing experience and see how it works
  531. [22:41:07] <tantek> brian, that line of reasoning is why we came up with the whole mfo discussion
  532. [22:41:20] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples
  533. [22:41:21] <briansuda> i have never been apart of that...
  534. [22:41:31] <tantek> it's been discussed on the mailing list I think
  535. [22:41:44] <tantek> and also at the hAtom finalization f2f I think
  536. [22:41:48] <briansuda> on a side note, tantek, you mentioned on the list that the w3c link should be the profile for hCard
  537. [22:41:53] <tantek> anyway, the problem is not a new one
  538. [22:41:59] <tantek> could be certainly
  539. [22:42:05] <briansuda> i thought somewhere DanC didn't want that to become the defacto standard
  540. [22:42:09] <tantek> just like anyone can host a DTD on their site and refer to it
  541. [22:42:25] <tantek> I'm not too worried about it
  542. [22:42:51] <briansuda> well, if X2V is going to start doing LINT mode, an official profile link would be nice
  543. [22:43:13] <briansuda> especially since those are NOT machine parsable, they need to be a reliable resource
  544. [22:43:24] <kingryan> official profile links would be nice, irregardless
  545. [22:43:30] <kingryan> but they've been low priority
  546. [22:43:43] <briansuda> http://suda.co.uk/foobar/hcard sure LOOKS like hCard profile, but it doesn't have to be...
  547. [22:44:31] <kingryan> no one disagrees that profile URIs would be *very*useful
  548. [22:45:55] <briansuda> i do have to run, they are locking-up here, i'll try and pick this back-up at home or on the list
  549. [22:46:14] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ("heading home")
  550. [22:46:24] <kingryan> ok
  551. [22:47:05] <tantek> briansuda, profiles are machine parsable - see XMDP docs
  552. [22:48:51] <factoryjoe> "irregardless" is not parseable
  553. [22:49:08] <e_s_p> unirregardless
  554. [22:51:00] <kingryan> non-standard sure, but non-parseable?
  555. [22:52:48] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  556. [22:54:42] <hober> irregardless may be redundant, but it is an English word
  557. [22:54:46] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  558. [22:55:09] <kingryan> irregardless of what the "experts" say
  559. [22:55:54] <hober> Ironically, the experts (linguists) are precisely the people who generally aren't prescriptive about this sort of thing
  560. [23:03:39] <e_s_p> there are plenty of words that are in the dictionary and still make you sound like a knuckle-dragger
  561. [23:03:51] <kingryan> that ain't my problem
  562. [23:22:08] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  563. [23:22:20] <KevinMarks> 'regardless' - irregardless isn't a word http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-irr1.htm
  564. [23:23:17] <KevinMarks> though given my problems yesterday with using words...
  565. [23:23:27] <hober> 969,000 Google results can't be wrong :)
  566. [23:24:09] <KevinMarks> the link I sent is pretty balanced abiout it
  567. [23:24:24] <KevinMarks> just don't use 'catholic'
  568. [23:26:13] * briansuda (i=briansud@ACA32435.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  569. [23:26:14] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  570. [23:27:32] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  571. [23:29:30] * Jonna1 (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #microformats
  572. [23:29:30] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  573. [23:31:16] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6B0D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ("keep havin' fun")
  574. [23:31:52] <briansuda> ok, i shouldn't have said XMDP is not parsable, but without alot of work, after parsing needs to be compared to a canonical hCard profile to see if it is, and if there is a canonical version, just use that!
  575. [23:35:30] <bewest> briansuda: the link you posted earlier 404'd me
  576. [23:36:41] <briansuda> yeah, it doesn't exists
  577. [23:39:51] <tantek> brian, i think you may be trying to discern too much meaning from an XMDP
  578. [23:44:22] <tantek> it comes down to a vocabulary definition, from a machine perspective
  579. [23:44:31] <briansuda> i think the original question was about the w3c hcard profile, is that the one. Should we all be using that or will gmpg.org or microformats.org put one up... because for validators they need to have a source
  580. [23:44:56] <briansuda> ... sorry that middle sentance makes no sense...
  581. [23:45:10] <tantek> validators tend to validate against whatever URL is specified in the document for the DTD (or in our case, the XMDP)
  582. [23:45:13] <briansuda> should we all be using that link, or will there be an official one soon
  583. [23:45:27] <tantek> how about this
  584. [23:45:38] <tantek> if you feel you *need* an XMDP profile link, go ahead and use the W3C one
  585. [23:45:42] <tantek> otherwise don't bother for now
  586. [23:45:50] <tantek> the larger issue which has been on my plate far too long
  587. [23:46:16] <tantek> is that we need to make it easy for people to just us a composite microformat XMDP which includes XMDPs for specific microformats
  588. [23:46:32] <tantek> so that folks don't have to put a list of half dozen XMDP URLs into every document
  589. [23:46:45] <briansuda> i know we talked about that.
  590. [23:47:04] <tantek> more than that
  591. [23:47:10] <tantek> i've got it half written
  592. [23:47:13] <tantek> and it's on my to-do
  593. [23:47:23] <briansuda> but if i make a new profile on my site and include all sorts of profiles aggrigated together
  594. [23:47:26] * tantek trying really hard to get it done before 6/20 ;)
  595. [23:47:44] <briansuda> then my parsers need to pull that, parse it and get the canonical versions
  596. [23:48:13] <briansuda> to actually see WHAT microformats are being used. Then it can determine if class="vcard" is a microformat or a css property
  597. [23:48:29] <tantek> that's how DTD parsing works also BTW
  598. [23:48:46] <tantek> a validator has to pull the DTD, then parse it, and potentially load external references to other DTDs etc.
  599. [23:48:55] <tantek> no one ever said writing a validator was easy
  600. [23:49:31] <briansuda> as long as we have a canonical source then that's OK. originally it seemed like i can copy the profile, put it on my site and use that without citing a canonical source
  601. [23:54:32] <kingryan> briansuda, its the URI that consuming agents know about, not the contents of the resource
  602. [23:58:42] <briansuda> kingryan, i would agree, but somewhere in the discussion it was said "just like anyone can host a DTD on their site and refer to it", now we have any URI we want and we need to go back to the source to find out what was meant
  603. [23:59:28] <briansuda> and i THOUGHT that DanC didn't want the w3c link to be that source. So i was just checking since it was endorced on the mailing list and the one we should use
  604. [23:59:55] <kingryan> you can use it

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