IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:03:09] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  2. [00:04:49] <kingryan> hey briansuda
  3. [00:05:00] <briansuda> howdy kingryan
  4. [00:05:10] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  5. [00:05:28] <kingryan> so, it appears that x2v trims whitespace from the beginning and end of strings
  6. [00:05:32] <kingryan> is this intentional?
  7. [00:05:38] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  8. [00:05:46] <briansuda> yes it does, i'm not sure if it is intentional or not
  9. [00:06:00] <kingryan> well, our test cases reflect that practice
  10. [00:06:13] <kingryan> we need to discuss it soon, then
  11. [00:06:30] <kingryan> we might want to do html whitespace collapsing instead
  12. [00:06:39] <briansuda> the tricky part is when certain elements are white-space perservable (notes) others are not.
  13. [00:06:57] <briansuda> i think i had an "open question" on the FAQ about it
  14. [00:07:27] <kingryan> we might wanna bring this up again
  15. [00:07:33] <briansuda> then the other issue is when concatenating... values do NOT currently get a space added, but sometimes there needs to be.
  16. [00:07:37] <kingryan> dunno who else would care, though, at this point, besides Tantek
  17. [00:07:44] <briansuda> i'm up for discussing it
  18. [00:08:02] * KevinMarks would
  19. [00:08:13] <kingryan> good, KevinMarks
  20. [00:08:38] <kingryan> so, currently X2V and our test cases left and right trim everything, but that's more than HTML calls for
  21. [00:08:47] <KevinMarks> yes
  22. [00:08:54] <kingryan> HTML only calls for collapsing empty text nodes into single spaces
  23. [00:09:00] <KevinMarks> I think I add a space with block elements and not in inline ones
  24. [00:09:08] <kingryan> which would typically take care of most of the situations you're worried about briansuda
  25. [00:09:19] <KevinMarks> in the spider
  26. [00:09:47] <briansuda> collasping empty text nodes into single spaces is actually difficult (or maybe i don't know the correct way to do it)
  27. [00:09:57] <briansuda> PRE elements are white-space preserved
  28. [00:10:07] <briansuda> and in things like NOTES we keep \n
  29. [00:10:18] <briansuda> so there are special cases.
  30. [00:10:24] <kingryan> sure, there are
  31. [00:10:31] <kingryan> but the default case is unclear
  32. [00:10:45] <briansuda> agreeded that it is unclear at the moment
  33. [00:11:22] <briansuda> we can make a test case about this and see (as a community) what the output SHOULD be
  34. [00:13:06] * kingryan is rereading the spec
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  36. [00:14:20] <kingryan> here's the only relevant stuff I see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.1
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  38. [00:16:12] * briansuda is looking
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  43. [00:18:03] <briansuda> OK, i think i remember why i started to TRIM() left-right whitespace
  44. [00:18:11] <briansuda> if you have a div with class="n fn"
  45. [00:18:30] <briansuda> then on each subsequent line you have class="given-name"....
  46. [00:19:04] <kingryan> yeah
  47. [00:19:19] <kingryan> but that should be doable with just collapsing, not trimming
  48. [00:19:29] <briansuda> the N will be parse just fine, but the FN will have a leading space and a trailing space
  49. [00:19:41] <kingryan> I think that's fine
  50. [00:20:19] <briansuda> that is the what maybe true for a parser, but that is not how it is rendered in a browser
  51. [00:20:33] <kingryan> hmm, yeah, I'm doing browser tests now...
  52. [00:20:40] <kingryan> empty text nodes aren't rendered at all?
  53. [00:20:52] <briansuda> i don't think they are
  54. [00:21:08] <briansuda> they are between two nodes, (the div and span) so there is nothing there
  55. [00:21:28] <briansuda> but when we remove the SPANS for the FN formating all of a sudden we have introduced whitespace
  56. [00:22:41] <briansuda> for example:
  57. [00:22:50] <briansuda> <span class="fn n"> <span class="given-name">Brian</span> <span class="family-name">Suda</span></span><br />
  58. [00:23:29] <briansuda> There is a space before the <span class="given-name"> but it is not visible in browsers (or atlease safari)
  59. [00:23:54] <briansuda> the N in that case would parse just fine, but the FN would be FN: Brian Suda (not the leading space)
  60. [00:24:38] <briansuda> i'm not saying that is correct that safari fudges this, but i think that is why i was TRIM() the strings
  61. [00:24:57] <kingryan> seems reasonable
  62. [00:25:09] <briansuda> actually in XPATH it is normalize-space() which collapses alot of the "extra" white-space
  63. [00:25:53] <briansuda> i'll still up for discussing what should be done, because i think that w3 link you listed describes a different behaviour
  64. [00:26:30] <briansuda> actually, from that link "authors should not rely on user agents to render white space immediately after a start tag or immediately before an end tag"
  65. [00:26:32] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/rights]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/rights&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) Rights for user "User:DimitriGlazkov" set "": +sysop
  66. [00:27:05] <kingryan> yeah, I think that's an SGML compatibility thing, though
  67. [00:28:11] <briansuda> like i said, i;m not fussed either way. we should have this discussion sometime.... although it might not be the most productive use of our time since no one seems bothered by it at the moment
  68. [00:29:02] <kingryan> yeah, I just don't want to change the test cases down the road
  69. [00:29:21] <briansuda> that's true.
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  71. [00:30:03] <briansuda> well, this is a general issue to ALL microformats, so maybe it is worth while to add a page to the wiki, gather a few links and then email the list.... your thoughts?
  72. [00:31:09] <kingryan> sure
  73. [00:32:00] <briansuda> is there already a general MF parsing page?
  74. [00:32:51] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-microformats ?
  75. [00:33:06] <kingryan> maybe start http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-issues ?
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  77. [00:34:08] <briansuda> i think we can add a white-space section to http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-microformats
  78. [00:34:21] <briansuda> we can spin it off if need be
  79. [00:35:13] <briansuda> because it is not really an ISSUE, but more of a parsing rule
  80. [00:36:25] <kingryan> well, there's an issue about the rule, though
  81. [00:37:06] <briansuda> true, but in a few years (after we have settled this issue) i don't think it should be on an ISSUES page
  82. [00:37:23] <kingryan> well, we can *move it* when its no longer an issue
  83. [00:38:31] <briansuda> true, but we should try and keep "Cool URIs never change" under control
  84. [00:38:59] <briansuda> anyone else in the channel have an opinion?
  85. [00:39:25] <kingryan> briansuda, put it on an issues page- when its resolved, we can write up documentation on it
  86. [00:39:51] <briansuda> ok. That's fine by me... as long as we have it documented we can move forward
  87. [00:39:58] <kingryan> right
  88. [00:41:03] <briansuda> can you start that page and drop that link in we can write abit, then send the question and link to the list?
  89. [00:41:30] <kingryan> I'll start with the mailing list
  90. [00:41:55] <briansuda> ok, i can reply on that too
  91. [00:44:58] <mfbot> [[directions-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=directions-examples&diff=0&oldid=6641 * Mimizone * (+1167)
  92. [00:46:30] <kingryan> email sent to the dev list
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  95. [01:32:26] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=6642 * Steve Ganz * (+49) Schema - Clarified and added guidance about contact info formatting.
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  97. [01:36:07] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=6643 * Steve Ganz * (+43) Field details - Clarified and added guidance about contact info formatting.
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  105. [02:43:07] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  120. [05:04:06] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  141. [07:25:39] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  143. [07:36:21] <jibot> PhilipAshlock is in Bellingham WA and can be found online at http://www.philaestheta.com/
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  149. [08:58:15] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  151. [09:22:50] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6644 * Phae * (+97) New Examples - - adding link
  152. [09:48:57] <mfbot> [[User:Phae]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Phae * Phae * (+51)
  153. [09:49:52] <mfbot> [[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=6645 * Phae * (+79)
  154. [09:50:04] <mfbot> [[alternates-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=alternates-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=6646 * Kevin Marks * (+361) Discussion -
  155. [09:51:35] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6647 * Phae * (+0) New Examples -
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  157. [10:18:02] <jibot> PhilipAshlock is in Bellingham WA and can be found online at http://www.philaestheta.com/
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  159. [10:25:12] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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  161. [10:45:29] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  169. [10:59:19] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  175. [11:32:48] <mfbot> [[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=6648 * Phae * (+431) General Comments -
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  177. [11:37:44] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  197. [13:08:21] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  204. [14:17:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  205. [14:17:10] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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  208. [15:08:45] <mfbot> [[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=6649 * Gagravarr * (+185) Examples in the wild -
  209. [15:09:56] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6650 * Gagravarr * (+189) Examples in the wild -
  210. [15:31:52] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  211. [15:31:52] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  215. [15:43:10] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  216. [15:43:11] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  217. [15:53:16] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  218. [15:53:17] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  219. [16:14:19] <mfbot> [[rel-directory]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-directory&diff=0&oldid=6651 * StrongSailor * (+2297) Commentary -
  220. [16:15:21] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  221. [16:15:22] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  222. [16:16:50] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
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  224. [16:23:51] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  225. [16:31:47] * bewes1 (n=ben@adsl-71-141-99-221.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  227. [16:43:18] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  228. [16:43:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  234. [17:23:12] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:StrongSailor" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam!
  235. [17:25:28] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  236. [17:39:59] * tantek (n=tantek@212.135.90.100) has joined #microformats
  237. [17:39:59] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  238. [17:40:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  244. [18:27:05] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6652 * PaulGoscicki * (+134) Examples in the wild -
  245. [18:28:31] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6653 * PaulGoscicki * (+2) Examples in the wild -
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  248. [18:36:27] <mfbot> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6654 * PaulGoscicki * (+244) Implementations -
  249. [19:01:53] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  250. [19:01:53] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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  254. [19:46:18] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  265. [21:58:36] <hober> anyone wanna play with something resembling an hcard validator?
  266. [21:59:03] <hober> It's not really a validator; it's a "here's what our ping parser found in your URL" tool
  267. [21:59:35] <hober> (also, the URL is highly temporary, so hold off blogging or whatever until we pick a good one)
  268. [21:59:39] <hober> http://eventful.com/events/hcal_validator
  269. [21:59:50] <kingryan> cool
  270. [21:59:53] <hober> e.g., http://eventful.com/events/hcal_validator?url=http://eventful.com/events/E0-001-000988830-3
  271. [22:00:34] <kingryan> that's cool
  272. [22:05:40] * Adam_Craven is now known as AdamCraven
  273. [22:06:11] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  274. [22:06:27] <kingryan> how good is your parser?
  275. [22:07:00] <AdamCraven> Nice - what happens when it goes wrong, does it tell the user?
  276. [22:07:01] <kingryan> I was gonna ask if you'd tested against the test suite, but I forget that I've only got hcard done so far :D
  277. [22:07:47] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  278. [22:08:40] <hober> kingryan: it's only a few days old (gee, now that pingerati is sending things our way, let's acutally parse these things! :))
  279. [22:08:46] <kingryan> :D
  280. [22:08:50] <kingryan> that's good
  281. [22:09:08] <hober> AdamCraven: That's the idea, but it's in quite active development, so if it just hoses instead, I woulnd't be surprised.
  282. [22:09:39] <AdamCraven> haha, I did try a site, but it just blanked it (there was no valid hcalander there)
  283. [22:09:42] <hober> Also, many apologies on the markup on that page itself (I haven't had a chance to undo a cow-orker's damage on that yet)
  284. [22:10:54] <pnhChris> cow-orker?
  285. [22:11:09] <hober> I don't think it'll ever be a validator in the normal sense of the word, but it should be a good tool to test how high-fidelity your hCalendar events are
  286. [22:11:10] <pnhChris> trying to say something?
  287. [22:11:10] <pnhChris> :)
  288. [22:11:18] <hober> :)
  289. [22:11:38] * hober pleads the 5th
  290. [22:13:00] * kingryan is working on a validator
  291. [22:13:17] * kingryan well, for now he's working on parsers, which will be used for a validator
  292. [22:14:01] <hober> right; this tool is simply our parser tester made public
  293. [22:14:23] <hober> Hopefully we'll end up with a non-sucky URL soon (labs.evdb.com/hcal/test or somesuch)
  294. [22:14:48] * tantek (n=tantek@212.135.90.100) has joined #microformats
  295. [22:14:48] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  296. [22:15:07] <KevinMarks> evening tantek
  297. [22:15:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  298. [22:15:13] <hober> It's been fun to watch; this is the first bit of in-office µf code that I didn't have anything to do with implementation-wise
  299. [22:15:14] <KevinMarks> how's Blighty?
  300. [22:20:05] <imajes> good
  301. [22:26:42] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  302. [22:31:58] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  303. [22:40:07] <KevinMarks> tantek's there too
  304. [23:06:10] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
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  307. [23:17:31] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  308. [23:18:31] * tantek (n=tantek@212.135.90.100) Quit ()
  309. [23:19:53] <bewest> hmmm
  310. [23:20:26] <bewest> are there any plans to freshen up the Main_Page or splash page of microformats.org?
  311. [23:20:37] <bewest> I'm finding people are a bit confused by it
  312. [23:20:41] <kingryan> splash page?
  313. [23:20:46] <bewest> and in some cases come away with the wrong idea
  314. [23:20:54] <bewest> splash page/index
  315. [23:21:08] <kingryan> the index of the site?
  316. [23:21:11] <bewest> yea
  317. [23:21:32] <kingryan> well, I have ideas
  318. [23:21:45] <kingryan> but they've had some resistance
  319. [23:22:03] <bewest> I'm working with some smart people who come away with some strange ideas
  320. [23:22:14] <bewest> and others who say things like...
  321. [23:22:14] <kingryan> what have been their misconceptions?
  322. [23:22:36] <bewest> : had to click thru about 7 links before I could even find an example of what they meant by microformats
  323. [23:22:54] <bewest> misconceptions.... things like microformats is a new xml based format
  324. [23:23:01] <bewest> that microformats are published on their own
  325. [23:23:10] <bewest> that microformats define some kind of document
  326. [23:23:43] <bewest> they typically don't understand that it sits in a normal webpage
  327. [23:23:56] <bewest> they think it's something to do with RDF or RSS
  328. [23:24:01] <kingryan> yeah, the landing pages are pretty obtuse about the actual technologies
  329. [23:24:27] <bewest> well, and the Main_Page does mention xml and rss
  330. [23:24:31] <kingryan> which *was* intentional, but I think it needs to change
  331. [23:24:37] <bewest> and lacks a clear definition
  332. [23:24:40] <bewest> I think that's the main thing
  333. [23:25:06] <bewest> there's no salient definition on an broad level
  334. [23:25:29] <kingryan> or maybe the definitions are too broad?
  335. [23:25:35] <kingryan> too high-level?
  336. [23:25:39] <bewest> one comment I just heard was: naturally the hcard microformat falls down when I'm already doing <h2 class="title"> which has nothing to do with the author's Title as a professional :)
  337. [23:25:39] <bewest> yeah, too broad
  338. [23:26:49] <bewest> I usually mention it allows you to encode complex data structures into html so that machines can perform atomic operations
  339. [23:27:08] <bewest> and try to give an example about pasting from IE into firefox or into an address book
  340. [23:27:13] <kingryan> one challenge is that we have different crowds to try to appeal to
  341. [23:27:17] <bewest> but it's not a good example, because most people think of pasting bits of text
  342. [23:27:31] <bewest> and I have to go out of my way to explain its pasting the entire data structure
  343. [23:29:10] <bewest> recently I started adding tantek's word "fidelity"
  344. [23:29:40] <bewest> a colleage recently said this: microformats are standards for embedding the semantics of certain syntactic XML constructs without changing the XML structure.
  345. [23:30:09] <bewest> which ... is... not very clear
  346. [23:30:16] <kingryan> yeah, that's a bit odd
  347. [23:31:36] <bewest> I keep telling him it's not about xml
  348. [23:31:36] <bewest> and he just quotes the wiki bit about xml
  349. [23:31:36] <bewest> so I replied with There is a big push to make information more machine readable, while maintaining its fidelity for human consumption. New XML formats are constantly cropping up on the Semantic Web such as RDF, SPARQL... yadda yadda yadda... the problem is there are no browsers massively deployed that consume this information in a way useful to people. Enter microformts. Microformats encode data structures in normal (X)HTML... a language very well supp
  350. [23:33:07] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  351. [23:34:48] <kingryan> wow, bill gates has announced retirement from microsoft and ray ozzie is replacing him
  352. [23:34:56] <kingryan> (as chief software achitect)
  353. [23:35:00] <kingryan> architect*
  354. [23:38:25] <bewest> kingryan: link?
  355. [23:38:39] <kingryan> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jun06/06-15CorpNewsPR.mspx
  356. [23:39:16] <pnhChris> maybe we just need to find a great first example to use and feature that on the first page as an illustration
  357. [23:40:17] <bewest> pnhChris: yeah, an example with a salient definition
  358. [23:40:17] <bewest> yes
  359. [23:40:36] <pnhChris> a simple HTML to HTMLw/hcard example or soemthing
  360. [23:41:12] <pnhChris> and break up some of the words with the pretty picture
  361. [23:42:21] <pnhChris> or even it its on this page: http://microformats.org/about/
  362. [23:42:50] <pnhChris> do something above the other diagram
  363. [23:49:24] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("nn")

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