IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:03:09] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [00:04:49] <kingryan>
hey briansuda
- [00:05:00] <briansuda>
howdy kingryan
- [00:05:10] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
- [00:05:28] <kingryan>
so, it appears that x2v trims whitespace from the beginning and end of strings
- [00:05:32] <kingryan>
is this intentional?
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- [00:05:46] <briansuda>
yes it does, i'm not sure if it is intentional or not
- [00:06:00] <kingryan>
well, our test cases reflect that practice
- [00:06:13] <kingryan>
we need to discuss it soon, then
- [00:06:30] <kingryan>
we might want to do html whitespace collapsing instead
- [00:06:39] <briansuda>
the tricky part is when certain elements are white-space perservable (notes) others are not.
- [00:06:57] <briansuda>
i think i had an "open question" on the FAQ about it
- [00:07:27] <kingryan>
we might wanna bring this up again
- [00:07:33] <briansuda>
then the other issue is when concatenating... values do NOT currently get a space added, but sometimes there needs to be.
- [00:07:37] <kingryan>
dunno who else would care, though, at this point, besides Tantek
- [00:07:44] <briansuda>
i'm up for discussing it
- [00:08:02] * KevinMarks would
- [00:08:13] <kingryan>
good, KevinMarks
- [00:08:38] <kingryan>
so, currently X2V and our test cases left and right trim everything, but that's more than HTML calls for
- [00:08:47] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [00:08:54] <kingryan>
HTML only calls for collapsing empty text nodes into single spaces
- [00:09:00] <KevinMarks>
I think I add a space with block elements and not in inline ones
- [00:09:08] <kingryan>
which would typically take care of most of the situations you're worried about briansuda
- [00:09:19] <KevinMarks>
in the spider
- [00:09:47] <briansuda>
collasping empty text nodes into single spaces is actually difficult (or maybe i don't know the correct way to do it)
- [00:09:57] <briansuda>
PRE elements are white-space preserved
- [00:10:07] <briansuda>
and in things like NOTES we keep \n
- [00:10:18] <briansuda>
so there are special cases.
- [00:10:24] <kingryan>
sure, there are
- [00:10:31] <kingryan>
but the default case is unclear
- [00:10:45] <briansuda>
agreeded that it is unclear at the moment
- [00:11:22] <briansuda>
we can make a test case about this and see (as a community) what the output SHOULD be
- [00:13:06] * kingryan is rereading the spec
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- [00:14:20] <kingryan>
here's the only relevant stuff I see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.1
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- [00:16:12] * briansuda is looking
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- [00:18:03] <briansuda>
OK, i think i remember why i started to TRIM() left-right whitespace
- [00:18:11] <briansuda>
if you have a div with class="n fn"
- [00:18:30] <briansuda>
then on each subsequent line you have class="given-name"....
- [00:19:04] <kingryan>
yeah
- [00:19:19] <kingryan>
but that should be doable with just collapsing, not trimming
- [00:19:29] <briansuda>
the N will be parse just fine, but the FN will have a leading space and a trailing space
- [00:19:41] <kingryan>
I think that's fine
- [00:20:19] <briansuda>
that is the what maybe true for a parser, but that is not how it is rendered in a browser
- [00:20:33] <kingryan>
hmm, yeah, I'm doing browser tests now...
- [00:20:40] <kingryan>
empty text nodes aren't rendered at all?
- [00:20:52] <briansuda>
i don't think they are
- [00:21:08] <briansuda>
they are between two nodes, (the div and span) so there is nothing there
- [00:21:28] <briansuda>
but when we remove the SPANS for the FN formating all of a sudden we have introduced whitespace
- [00:22:41] <briansuda>
for example:
- [00:22:50] <briansuda>
<span class="fn n"> <span class="given-name">Brian</span> <span class="family-name">Suda</span></span><br />
- [00:23:29] <briansuda>
There is a space before the <span class="given-name"> but it is not visible in browsers (or atlease safari)
- [00:23:54] <briansuda>
the N in that case would parse just fine, but the FN would be FN: Brian Suda (not the leading space)
- [00:24:38] <briansuda>
i'm not saying that is correct that safari fudges this, but i think that is why i was TRIM() the strings
- [00:24:57] <kingryan>
seems reasonable
- [00:25:09] <briansuda>
actually in XPATH it is normalize-space() which collapses alot of the "extra" white-space
- [00:25:53] <briansuda>
i'll still up for discussing what should be done, because i think that w3 link you listed describes a different behaviour
- [00:26:30] <briansuda>
actually, from that link "authors should not rely on user agents to render white space immediately after a start tag or immediately before an end tag"
- [00:26:32] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/rights]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/rights&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) Rights for user "User:DimitriGlazkov" set "": +sysop
- [00:27:05] <kingryan>
yeah, I think that's an SGML compatibility thing, though
- [00:28:11] <briansuda>
like i said, i;m not fussed either way. we should have this discussion sometime.... although it might not be the most productive use of our time since no one seems bothered by it at the moment
- [00:29:02] <kingryan>
yeah, I just don't want to change the test cases down the road
- [00:29:21] <briansuda>
that's true.
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- [00:30:03] <briansuda>
well, this is a general issue to ALL microformats, so maybe it is worth while to add a page to the wiki, gather a few links and then email the list.... your thoughts?
- [00:31:09] <kingryan>
sure
- [00:32:00] <briansuda>
is there already a general MF parsing page?
- [00:32:51] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-microformats ?
- [00:33:06] <kingryan>
maybe start http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-issues ?
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- [00:34:08] <briansuda>
i think we can add a white-space section to http://microformats.org/wiki/parsing-microformats
- [00:34:21] <briansuda>
we can spin it off if need be
- [00:35:13] <briansuda>
because it is not really an ISSUE, but more of a parsing rule
- [00:36:25] <kingryan>
well, there's an issue about the rule, though
- [00:37:06] <briansuda>
true, but in a few years (after we have settled this issue) i don't think it should be on an ISSUES page
- [00:37:23] <kingryan>
well, we can *move it* when its no longer an issue
- [00:38:31] <briansuda>
true, but we should try and keep "Cool URIs never change" under control
- [00:38:59] <briansuda>
anyone else in the channel have an opinion?
- [00:39:25] <kingryan>
briansuda, put it on an issues page- when its resolved, we can write up documentation on it
- [00:39:51] <briansuda>
ok. That's fine by me... as long as we have it documented we can move forward
- [00:39:58] <kingryan>
right
- [00:41:03] <briansuda>
can you start that page and drop that link in we can write abit, then send the question and link to the list?
- [00:41:30] <kingryan>
I'll start with the mailing list
- [00:41:55] <briansuda>
ok, i can reply on that too
- [00:44:58] <mfbot>
[[directions-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=directions-examples&diff=0&oldid=6641 * Mimizone * (+1167)
- [00:46:30] <kingryan>
email sent to the dev list
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- [01:32:26] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=6642 * Steve Ganz * (+49) Schema - Clarified and added guidance about contact info formatting.
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- [01:36:07] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=6643 * Steve Ganz * (+43) Field details - Clarified and added guidance about contact info formatting.
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [05:04:06] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:25:39] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:36:21] <jibot>
PhilipAshlock is in Bellingham WA and can be found online at http://www.philaestheta.com/
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- [08:58:15] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6644 * Phae * (+97) New Examples - - adding link
- [09:48:57] <mfbot>
[[User:Phae]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Phae * Phae * (+51)
- [09:49:52] <mfbot>
[[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=6645 * Phae * (+79)
- [09:50:04] <mfbot>
[[alternates-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=alternates-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=6646 * Kevin Marks * (+361) Discussion -
- [09:51:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6647 * Phae * (+0) New Examples -
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- [10:18:02] <jibot>
PhilipAshlock is in Bellingham WA and can be found online at http://www.philaestheta.com/
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- [10:25:12] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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- [10:45:29] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=6648 * Phae * (+431) General Comments -
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [14:17:10] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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- [15:08:45] <mfbot>
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=6649 * Gagravarr * (+185) Examples in the wild -
- [15:09:56] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6650 * Gagravarr * (+189) Examples in the wild -
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- [15:31:52] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [15:43:11] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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- [15:53:17] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [16:14:19] <mfbot>
[[rel-directory]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-directory&diff=0&oldid=6651 * StrongSailor * (+2297) Commentary -
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- [16:15:22] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [16:23:51] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [16:43:18] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [17:23:12] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:StrongSailor" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam!
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- [17:39:59] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [18:27:05] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6652 * PaulGoscicki * (+134) Examples in the wild -
- [18:28:31] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6653 * PaulGoscicki * (+2) Examples in the wild -
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- [18:36:27] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=6654 * PaulGoscicki * (+244) Implementations -
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- [19:01:53] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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- [19:46:18] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [21:58:36] <hober>
anyone wanna play with something resembling an hcard validator?
- [21:59:03] <hober>
It's not really a validator; it's a "here's what our ping parser found in your URL" tool
- [21:59:35] <hober>
(also, the URL is highly temporary, so hold off blogging or whatever until we pick a good one)
- [21:59:39] <hober>
http://eventful.com/events/hcal_validator
- [21:59:50] <kingryan>
cool
- [21:59:53] <hober>
e.g., http://eventful.com/events/hcal_validator?url=http://eventful.com/events/E0-001-000988830-3
- [22:00:34] <kingryan>
that's cool
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- [22:06:27] <kingryan>
how good is your parser?
- [22:07:00] <AdamCraven>
Nice - what happens when it goes wrong, does it tell the user?
- [22:07:01] <kingryan>
I was gonna ask if you'd tested against the test suite, but I forget that I've only got hcard done so far :D
- [22:07:47] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:08:40] <hober>
kingryan: it's only a few days old (gee, now that pingerati is sending things our way, let's acutally parse these things! :))
- [22:08:46] <kingryan>
:D
- [22:08:50] <kingryan>
that's good
- [22:09:08] <hober>
AdamCraven: That's the idea, but it's in quite active development, so if it just hoses instead, I woulnd't be surprised.
- [22:09:39] <AdamCraven>
haha, I did try a site, but it just blanked it (there was no valid hcalander there)
- [22:09:42] <hober>
Also, many apologies on the markup on that page itself (I haven't had a chance to undo a cow-orker's damage on that yet)
- [22:10:54] <pnhChris>
cow-orker?
- [22:11:09] <hober>
I don't think it'll ever be a validator in the normal sense of the word, but it should be a good tool to test how high-fidelity your hCalendar events are
- [22:11:10] <pnhChris>
trying to say something?
- [22:11:10] <pnhChris>
:)
- [22:11:18] <hober>
:)
- [22:11:38] * hober pleads the 5th
- [22:13:00] * kingryan is working on a validator
- [22:13:17] * kingryan well, for now he's working on parsers, which will be used for a validator
- [22:14:01] <hober>
right; this tool is simply our parser tester made public
- [22:14:23] <hober>
Hopefully we'll end up with a non-sucky URL soon (labs.evdb.com/hcal/test or somesuch)
- [22:14:48] * tantek (n=tantek@212.135.90.100) has joined #microformats
- [22:14:48] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [22:15:07] <KevinMarks>
evening tantek
- [22:15:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [22:15:13] <hober>
It's been fun to watch; this is the first bit of in-office µf code that I didn't have anything to do with implementation-wise
- [22:15:14] <KevinMarks>
how's Blighty?
- [22:20:05] <imajes>
good
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- [22:40:07] <KevinMarks>
tantek's there too
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- [23:17:31] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [23:19:53] <bewest>
hmmm
- [23:20:26] <bewest>
are there any plans to freshen up the Main_Page or splash page of microformats.org?
- [23:20:37] <bewest>
I'm finding people are a bit confused by it
- [23:20:41] <kingryan>
splash page?
- [23:20:46] <bewest>
and in some cases come away with the wrong idea
- [23:20:54] <bewest>
splash page/index
- [23:21:08] <kingryan>
the index of the site?
- [23:21:11] <bewest>
yea
- [23:21:32] <kingryan>
well, I have ideas
- [23:21:45] <kingryan>
but they've had some resistance
- [23:22:03] <bewest>
I'm working with some smart people who come away with some strange ideas
- [23:22:14] <bewest>
and others who say things like...
- [23:22:14] <kingryan>
what have been their misconceptions?
- [23:22:36] <bewest>
: had to click thru about 7 links before I could even find an example of what they meant by microformats
- [23:22:54] <bewest>
misconceptions.... things like microformats is a new xml based format
- [23:23:01] <bewest>
that microformats are published on their own
- [23:23:10] <bewest>
that microformats define some kind of document
- [23:23:43] <bewest>
they typically don't understand that it sits in a normal webpage
- [23:23:56] <bewest>
they think it's something to do with RDF or RSS
- [23:24:01] <kingryan>
yeah, the landing pages are pretty obtuse about the actual technologies
- [23:24:27] <bewest>
well, and the Main_Page does mention xml and rss
- [23:24:31] <kingryan>
which *was* intentional, but I think it needs to change
- [23:24:37] <bewest>
and lacks a clear definition
- [23:24:40] <bewest>
I think that's the main thing
- [23:25:06] <bewest>
there's no salient definition on an broad level
- [23:25:29] <kingryan>
or maybe the definitions are too broad?
- [23:25:35] <kingryan>
too high-level?
- [23:25:39] <bewest>
one comment I just heard was: naturally the hcard microformat falls down when I'm already doing <h2 class="title"> which has nothing to do with the author's Title as a professional :)
- [23:25:39] <bewest>
yeah, too broad
- [23:26:49] <bewest>
I usually mention it allows you to encode complex data structures into html so that machines can perform atomic operations
- [23:27:08] <bewest>
and try to give an example about pasting from IE into firefox or into an address book
- [23:27:13] <kingryan>
one challenge is that we have different crowds to try to appeal to
- [23:27:17] <bewest>
but it's not a good example, because most people think of pasting bits of text
- [23:27:31] <bewest>
and I have to go out of my way to explain its pasting the entire data structure
- [23:29:10] <bewest>
recently I started adding tantek's word "fidelity"
- [23:29:40] <bewest>
a colleage recently said this: microformats are standards for embedding the semantics of certain syntactic XML constructs without changing the XML structure.
- [23:30:09] <bewest>
which ... is... not very clear
- [23:30:16] <kingryan>
yeah, that's a bit odd
- [23:31:36] <bewest>
I keep telling him it's not about xml
- [23:31:36] <bewest>
and he just quotes the wiki bit about xml
- [23:31:36] <bewest>
so I replied with There is a big push to make information more machine readable, while maintaining its fidelity for human consumption. New XML formats are constantly cropping up on the Semantic Web such as RDF, SPARQL... yadda yadda yadda... the problem is there are no browsers massively deployed that consume this information in a way useful to people. Enter microformts. Microformats encode data structures in normal (X)HTML... a language very well supp
- [23:33:07] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
- [23:34:48] <kingryan>
wow, bill gates has announced retirement from microsoft and ray ozzie is replacing him
- [23:34:56] <kingryan>
(as chief software achitect)
- [23:35:00] <kingryan>
architect*
- [23:38:25] <bewest>
kingryan: link?
- [23:38:39] <kingryan>
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jun06/06-15CorpNewsPR.mspx
- [23:39:16] <pnhChris>
maybe we just need to find a great first example to use and feature that on the first page as an illustration
- [23:40:17] <bewest>
pnhChris: yeah, an example with a salient definition
- [23:40:17] <bewest>
yes
- [23:40:36] <pnhChris>
a simple HTML to HTMLw/hcard example or soemthing
- [23:41:12] <pnhChris>
and break up some of the words with the pretty picture
- [23:42:21] <pnhChris>
or even it its on this page: http://microformats.org/about/
- [23:42:50] <pnhChris>
do something above the other diagram
- [23:49:24] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("nn")
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