IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:08] <pnhChris>
.... as in WikiWord
- [00:00:14] <pnhChris>
not all lowercase
- [00:00:22] <pnhChris>
(or other variations)
- [00:00:34] <deanero>
ah. thanks
- [00:00:41] <pnhChris>
np
- [00:01:51] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [00:01:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [00:02:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [00:38:55] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7044 * DeanEro * (+859) Examples from larger indie bands/labels
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- [00:47:15] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [00:57:01] <mfbot>
[[User:DeanEro]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DeanEro * DeanEro * (+59)
- [01:02:07] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7045 * DeanEro * (+125) Artist pages -
- [01:06:23] <mfbot>
[[User:ChristopheDucamp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=7046 * ChristopheDucamp * (+63) beginning to integrate some tests of microformats editable on a wikihomepage
- [01:14:34] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7047 * DeanEro * (+466) Added release sites-- usually produced by labels in conjunction with record releases
- [01:17:20] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7048 * DeanEro * (-9) Artist pages -
- [01:18:41] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7049 * DeanEro * (-9) Fixed my misformatted links
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- [01:44:21] <deanero>
i seem to be subverting music-examples in the direction of my problem-domain-- it looks like it doesn't really have any real info in it that doesn't live in media-info..
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- [02:24:21] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:41:19] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [02:41:34] <Remi>
hey guys, I made a little rough version of a 3d microformats logo: http://remiprevost.com/images/wallpapers/microformats/mf-3d.jpg
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- [03:09:44] <alexandermuse>
General question: Our hResume plugin pings http://rpc.technorati.com/rpc/ping when you update your resume. Will this automatically ping Pingerati?
- [03:09:53] <alexandermuse>
Or, should we bake in a specific Pingerati URI?
- [03:13:35] <alexandermuse>
Anyone online?
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- [03:14:34] <alexandermuse>
Anyone online tonight?
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- [03:36:14] <DanC>
hmm... odd... why does hcard call it 'category' when the rfc says 'categories' ?
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- [03:59:57] <mfbot>
[[events/anniversary/1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/anniversary/1&diff=0&oldid=7050 * Rohit * (+34) Organizers -
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- [04:10:36] <alexandermuse>
Anyone online who can help me with pingerati?
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- [04:50:01] <tantek>
DanC - see singularization in the spec
- [04:50:21] <DanC>
yes, found that
- [04:50:27] <DanC>
and a number of other nooks and crannies
- [04:51:29] * DanC is now learning about multiple types, as in type=dom,intl
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- [05:04:10] <mfbot>
[[events/anniversary/1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/anniversary/1&diff=0&oldid=7051 * Tantek * (+300) added flickr tag search for photos, added a requisite party photo
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- [05:06:51] <DanC>
hmm... I don't think I'm up to 16-honorific-additional-multiple tonight
- [05:15:03] <DanC>
well, it seems to work in my addressbook. http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/vcardin.py (along with contacts.kid and icslex.py) that is
- [05:15:26] <DanC>
on my addressbook
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- [08:07:55] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [10:43:32] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [12:21:19] <mfbot>
[[buttons-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=7052 * ChristopheDucamp * (+73) Style 2 - minor edits
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- [13:28:45] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [13:31:04] <chimezie>
jibot, help
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- [14:08:32] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [14:13:28] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [14:14:03] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [14:22:15] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [14:38:23] <mfbot>
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7053 * DrewMcLellan * (+52) People on irc -
- [14:44:20] <mfbot>
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7054 * DrewMcLellan * (+14) bots -
- [14:44:41] <mfbot>
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7055 * DrewMcLellan * (+14) Greetings -
- [14:46:18] <drewinthehead>
?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
- [14:46:18] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
- [14:46:25] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [14:46:44] <pnhChris>
mornin'
- [14:46:47] <pnhChris>
(or afternoon)
- [14:46:53] <drewinthehead>
afternoon
- [14:47:03] <tantek_>
good morning ;)
- [14:47:07] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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- [14:47:24] <drewinthehead>
just installed the latest Colloquy beta (v2.1 nightly) - love it.
- [14:47:29] <drewinthehead>
morning tantek_
- [14:49:08] <tantek>
hey drew, I added hKit and you to the implementations/implementors page: http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations
- [14:49:38] <tantek>
so now I'm tagging you in to add two more (microformats implementations that you know of)
- [14:49:57] <tantek>
and you can tag them to do the same
- [14:50:02] <tantek>
:)
- [14:50:03] <drewinthehead>
ok, sounds fair ;)
- [14:50:09] * pnhChris hides
- [14:50:15] * drewinthehead coughs
- [14:50:21] <tantek>
ah! perfect candidate.
- [14:53:11] <drewinthehead>
tantek - do you think there's a case for splitting implementations up into 3 parts: publishers, tools for publishing, tools for consuming?
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- [14:53:28] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [14:54:00] <tantek>
drew, I'm thinking of doing that only on the spec pages themselves
- [14:54:07] * pnhChris is too busy reloading ups.com to edit a wiki today
- [14:54:15] <tantek>
figuring either you want a flat list of implementations/implementors
- [14:54:26] <tantek>
or you're interested in a specific type of implementation for a specific microformat
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- [14:55:01] <tantek>
I've started to do that kind of "parts" split with hCalendar: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar#Implementations
- [14:55:05] <tantek>
hey alex!
- [14:55:44] <drewinthehead>
ok, I'll buy that :)
- [14:56:04] <tantek>
the purpose of the implementations/implementors page is somewhat to find things, but more to recognize the products and people/companies behind them for their good work. hence an overall "roster" I think makes sense.
- [14:57:19] <tantek>
drew, BTW, if you have ideas/feedback on a taxonomy for splitting up the implementations, I would appreciate the input/feedback. My current thinking is here: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#for_all_microformat_specs
- [14:58:11] * drewinthehead go looks
- [15:00:51] <trovster>
Hey tantek, know any problems with the hatom2atom script?
- [15:02:17] <tantek>
I think it is still very much "in development"
- [15:02:51] <tantek>
of course if you find problems, note them in the wiki just underneath the listing for the script: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Implementations
- [15:02:57] <trovster>
Because I've found a problem. It requires XHTML, but when I send it as XHTML application/xml then it complains. Works wi the same 'xhtml' as text/html
- [15:03:19] <tantek>
that's definitely worth noting, along with a test case URL that demonstrates the problem
- [15:04:05] <trovster>
test-case URL is in development/private and depends on me sending as application/xhtml+xml, which I'm not doing (especially not in development, because of the yellow-screen-of-death)
- [15:07:44] <pnhChris>
something you can pack up, no? sure someone can find someplace to send it with different headers
- [15:07:50] <drewinthehead>
it's more beige isn't it?
- [15:08:14] <trovster>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YSoD ;)
- [15:08:53] * pnhChris creates BeSoD at wikipedia
- [15:09:29] <pnhChris>
"sorta like YSoD, but for some people its beige"
- [15:12:00] <drewinthehead>
i'd prefer the "dark angel of beigeness"
- [15:22:05] <mfbot>
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7056 * DrewMcLellan * (+379) Technorati Tags -
- [15:22:22] * briansuda just pushed TESTS and X2V to hg.microformats.org, be sure to pull and update
- [15:23:03] <drewinthehead>
pnhChris, does the above wiki edit look accurate to you?
- [15:23:21] <mfbot>
[[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7057 * Tantek * (+0) typo
- [15:23:47] <tantek>
drew, be sure to list Chris as a developer as well
- [15:24:00] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations#Companies_.2F_Developers_.2F_Organizations
- [15:24:34] <tantek>
with a fragment id link to the implementation entry you just entered
- [15:26:50] <pnhChris>
sure drew
- [15:27:17] <mfbot>
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7058 * DrewMcLellan * (+98) Dan Cederholm -
- [15:29:05] * drewinthehead passes the /wiki/implementations baton to pnhChris
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- [16:02:57] <mfbot>
[[implementations-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=7059 * ChristopheDucamp * (+399) sync with original page : ajout Textpattern plugins
- [16:04:57] <kingryan>
trovster
- [16:05:09] <kingryan>
talk to robertbachmann about the hatom xslt
- [16:05:27] <briansuda>
kingryan, i pushed to HG, be sure to pull/update
- [16:05:36] <kingryan>
k
- [16:06:00] * trovster has never seen him speak!
- [16:07:18] <mfbot>
[[irc-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7060 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) synchro with irc+ typo
- [16:08:14] <mfbot>
[[irc-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7061 * ChristopheDucamp * (+11) Les gens sur irc -
- [16:08:50] <mfbot>
[[irc-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7062 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Les gens sur irc -
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- [16:10:15] <jibot>
xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
- [16:11:58] <chimezie>
? def chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
- [16:11:59] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [16:20:56] <DanC>
brian, localhost snuck into http://hg.microformats.org/tests/?cs=5d583383496c again
- [16:21:35] <briansuda>
i know, i think i pushed a second time? Ryan is fixing that and giving me a path option at the command line
- [16:22:39] * kisu (n=kisu@cielkisu.tb.as8758.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:22:59] <DanC>
ah... yes, I see the fix now. http://hg.microformats.org/tests/?cs=e7770e40bbb3
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- [16:30:05] <alexandermuse>
Anyone familiar with pingerati? Specifically what URI do I use to send hResume pings?
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- [16:31:31] <briansuda>
DanC, be sure to pull X2V code as well, i just commited a small change to escape ','s correctly
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- [17:25:48] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:27:24] <tantek>
hey alex
- [17:27:44] <tantek>
for resume pings, you want to ping resumes.pingerati.net/ping/URLofResume
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- [17:29:18] <KevinMarks>
do we have a container marker fro resumes?
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- [17:32:45] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [17:38:04] <tantek>
Kevinmarks, see hResume spec :)
- [17:38:21] <KevinMarks>
ooh, it's a spec now? cool
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- [17:40:11] <tantek>
yeah, just do an "I'm feeling lucky" on "hResume"
- [17:40:13] <tantek>
:D
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- [18:04:18] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [18:17:04] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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- [18:19:49] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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- [18:32:58] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [18:33:45] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=7063 * Chucker * (+559) msnim: reference
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- [18:35:19] <tantek>
cool. "msnim:" protocol works with Messenger 7.5 or later.
- [18:35:23] <tantek>
good to know
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- [18:55:47] <KevinMarks>
how long before that's 'liveim' ?
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [20:08:29] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [20:17:44] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [20:47:15] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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- [21:11:54] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [21:31:27] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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- [22:05:22] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [22:18:23] <kingryan>
hey briansuda
- [22:18:31] <briansuda>
evening
- [22:18:31] <kingryan>
I think I found an erroneous test
- [22:18:39] <briansuda>
which number?
- [22:18:43] <briansuda>
i made a few changes today
- [22:18:47] <kingryan>
hcard/33 doesn't have the implied-n thing, though there are proper fn's there
- [22:19:25] <briansuda>
yes, i changed that from earlier
- [22:19:36] <kingryan>
huh?
- [22:19:40] <briansuda>
that is a tricky one, because the FN == ORG even though they are on different element
- [22:19:43] <briansuda>
elements
- [22:19:56] <briansuda>
so N:;;;; is blank
- [22:19:57] <kingryan>
ah, ok I forgot about that part
- [22:20:18] <briansuda>
we should probably make a comment in the HTML so we don't forget
- [22:20:30] <briansuda>
or move those tests to a separate number
- [22:20:44] <briansuda>
(types of test) to a separate numbered file...
- [22:20:50] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:21:01] <kingryan>
what if there's more than one org?
- [22:21:10] <kingryan>
does this only happen if there's one org?
- [22:21:16] <briansuda>
i'm pretty sure that can only be singular...
- [22:21:23] <kingryan>
org?
- [22:21:23] <briansuda>
you can have multiple org-units
- [22:21:28] <kingryan>
I don't think so
- [22:21:45] <kingryan>
tantek and I talked about this yesterday and there doesn't seem to be any constraint in the rfc about that
- [22:21:52] <kingryan>
tantek_?
- [22:22:27] * briansuda is looking
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- [22:23:01] <jibot>
Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [22:23:04] <tantek_>
there is no constraint in the RFC about the number of orgs
- [22:23:09] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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- [22:23:40] <kingryan>
so, then, tantek, should the org==fn => organization hcard only apply if there's a single org in the hcard?
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- [22:24:23] <tantek>
yes
- [22:24:33] <tantek>
what would it mean if the fn matched *one* of the orgs?
- [22:24:38] <tantek>
that seems like an error
- [22:24:46] <kingryan>
I know. that's why I'm asking
- [22:24:50] <briansuda>
i know this is splitting hairs, but ....
- [22:24:51] <briansuda>
Type purpose: To specify the organizational name and units associated
- [22:24:51] <briansuda>
with the vCard.
- [22:24:59] <tantek>
unless perhaps we're trying to capture the semantic of an org itself belonging to an org?
- [22:25:05] <briansuda>
it says "the organization name" rather than "an organization name"
- [22:25:10] <tantek>
e.g. orgs often sponsor other orgs
- [22:25:39] <briansuda>
i don't disagree, but then ROLE applies to which ORG?
- [22:25:48] <briansuda>
and TITLE?
- [22:26:09] <briansuda>
if you have multiple ORGS, and multiple titles then there is no correlation
- [22:26:28] <tantek>
briansuda, that is insufficient
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- [22:26:35] <tantek>
it also says "To specify the electronic mail address"
- [22:26:38] <tantek>
in defn of EMAIL
- [22:26:46] <tantek>
and we know you can have multiple EMAILs
- [22:27:17] <briansuda>
EMAIL also has TYPE, so you can specify multiple... ORG does not
- [22:27:17] <tantek>
similarly for ADR: "To specify the components of the delivery address for
- [22:27:17] <tantek>
the vCard object."
- [22:27:20] <tantek>
uses "the"
- [22:27:24] <tantek>
but you can specify multiple
- [22:27:31] <tantek>
TYPE has nothing to do with it
- [22:28:08] <tantek>
the point is that the use of the word "the" is insufficient to imply singularity of a property in the spec
- [22:28:21] <tantek>
you have to look at the specific semantics of each property
- [22:28:41] <tantek>
I looked at this in detail a while ago, and Ryan King and I combed the definitions of the properties again yesterday.
- [22:28:47] <kingryan>
and the author's examples, where they use multiple tel's and emails
- [22:28:59] <tantek>
yes
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- [22:29:07] <tantek>
I believe Ryan has a list of what appears to be required singleton properties.
- [22:29:10] <kingryan>
of course, they also don't have N's
- [22:29:21] <tantek>
yep, that's where we got the implied N rule
- [22:29:26] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:29:34] <tantek>
I need to add the list of singletons properties explicitly to hCard
- [22:29:38] <briansuda>
So can you have multiple TITLES? and/or ROLES?
- [22:29:52] <tantek>
since it is too hard/obtuse to find them in the vCard spec (takes too long to read thoroughly and argue it out)
- [22:29:53] <kingryan>
singletons: fn, n, bday, tz, geo, sort-string, uid, class
- [22:29:57] <tantek>
briansuda, yes
- [22:30:21] <briansuda>
Well, if you can have multiple ADRs why not multiple GEO?
- [22:30:35] <kingryan>
b/c they have different definitions
- [22:30:49] <kingryan>
GEO seems to only apply to your location, not locations related to you
- [22:32:59] <briansuda>
are there any applications that actually support having multiple organizations?
- [22:33:28] <tantek>
briansuda, that's not the point, hCard is conveying the semantics of vCard, not the semantics of the applications that support vCard
- [22:33:39] <tantek>
that's a very important distinction
- [22:33:50] <tantek>
and how we avoid being cornered by crappy implementations
- [22:34:02] <briansuda>
i'm just wondering if anyone else might have had these same discussions and made a conclusion in our favour
- [22:35:50] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [22:36:14] <briansuda>
you should also add REV to the list of propeties that can only appear once, i don't think you can have multiple last-updated datetime stamps
- [22:36:33] <kingryan>
ah, yes, missed that one
- [22:37:26] <briansuda>
NOTE is singleton in vCard, and we are allowing multiple in hCard, but they are concatenated. so that probably should be mentioned then as well
- [22:37:58] <tantek>
briansuda, I'm actually not convinced that NOTE is singleton in vCard
- [22:40:52] <briansuda>
well, what about NICKNAME and CATEGORIES, both say they take a list of values, is there any need to have multiple NICKNAME properties with lists in each? those can be concated together.
- [22:42:36] <briansuda>
so what is the general thought about FN == ORG where ORG has multiple entries?
- [22:42:58] <briansuda>
and then we should write a test for that.
- [22:45:40] <kingryan>
I think it only makes sense when there's 1 org
- [22:46:19] <tantek>
well it is easy enough to handle
- [22:46:31] <tantek>
if the FN matches *ANY* ORG, then that is the ORG that the hCard represents
- [22:46:41] <tantek>
we leave the semantics of the other ORGs as undefined for now
- [22:48:20] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
- [22:55:00] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties * Tantek * (+2208) first draft
- [22:55:27] <kingryan>
wow 2k of writing?
- [22:55:56] <kingryan>
I like how the analysis appeals to physics
- [22:57:03] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) Quit ()
- [22:57:06] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7064 * Tantek * (+331) Singular vs. Plural Properties -
- [22:57:18] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
- [22:57:52] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=7065 * Tantek * (+149) added editor/author/contributor
- [22:59:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=7066 * Brian * (-10) Corrected Author URLs
- [23:00:43] <tantek>
heh, thanks Brian.
- [23:01:10] <bewest>
so if you want to describe several places you can be contacted, you'd do multiple hCards and transclude the necessary bits?
- [23:01:22] <bewest>
is there a test for that? :-)
- [23:02:17] <bewest>
rev only applies to revision time?
- [23:02:39] <bewest>
is geo a property of hcalendar? /me forgets
- [23:02:55] <bewest>
geo is a property of adr which is a property of hcal
- [23:03:08] <kingryan>
no, geo is not a part of adr
- [23:03:10] <tantek>
no
- [23:03:14] <bewest>
oh.
- [23:03:16] <tantek>
right, what kingryan said
- [23:03:17] <kingryan>
geo is part of [v,h]card
- [23:03:21] <tantek>
geo and adr are orthogonal
- [23:03:29] <tantek>
that's a common misconception
- [23:03:39] <bewest>
hmm
- [23:03:46] <bewest>
hmm
- [23:04:00] <bewest>
I could have sworn adr enclosed geo
- [23:04:14] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7067 * AndyBaio * (+32) Design Patterns -
- [23:05:22] <bewest>
sure enough
- [23:05:23] <bewest>
hmm
- [23:05:27] <bewest>
why did I think that
- [23:05:39] <briansuda>
bewest, if you want several places/phones/address you can put them all into one ( h | v )Card
- [23:05:40] <bewest>
in any case, how would you proprose describing where you might be using geo?
- [23:06:17] <bewest>
heh proprose
- [23:06:29] <briansuda>
GEO is a point, where as ADR is a polygon, that is one difference, and as we have just discussed, you can have multiple ADRs, but only one GEO
- [23:06:36] <bewest>
right
- [23:07:11] <bewest>
so how would you give a list of geo's to look for you
- [23:07:14] <briansuda>
REV is a timestamp (last-modified is the iCalendar equivalent) it can be used for syncing and determining the freshness of data
- [23:07:23] <bewest>
like... if I'm not at home, you might find me at the beach... barring that check work
- [23:07:31] <bewest>
and give geo for each one
- [23:07:46] <briansuda>
as it stands now, you can't
- [23:08:06] <briansuda>
you can certainly do it in plain HTML, but you would not be able to mark it up with hCard
- [23:08:17] <bewest>
so mapendar is impossible with microformats
- [23:08:27] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
- [23:08:31] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern-feedback]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback * AndyBaio * (+629)
- [23:08:38] <briansuda>
the other thing is that you'd have to find example of people actually mapping multiple GEO coordinates
- [23:08:49] <briansuda>
as it stands, you only ever map ONE is that!
- [23:08:58] <bewest>
I guess you can finagle a mapping of hcalendar and transclude your hcard
- [23:09:04] <briansuda>
mapendar is certainly still possible
- [23:09:17] <bewest>
I map multiple geo coordinates all the time
- [23:09:23] <briansuda>
each way point is a different organization and would be marked-up with different hCards
- [23:09:26] <bewest>
actually it's relatively common, I would imagine
- [23:09:34] <bewest>
let's say I go off to college
- [23:09:41] <bewest>
and I want to show someone where my favorite haunts are
- [23:09:47] <bewest>
I'd map them all as /my/ locations
- [23:09:58] <bewest>
places I belong
- [23:10:08] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:10:13] <briansuda>
correct, but each would be a different point and a different organization and a different hcard
- [23:10:18] <bewest>
I don't think so
- [23:10:22] <bewest>
they would be different geos
- [23:10:29] <bewest>
but the org/hcard is the same
- [23:10:39] <kingryan>
each of your "haunts" can have its own hcard
- [23:10:44] <bewest>
eg this is /my/ parking spot... this is /my/ office this is /my/ classroom
- [23:11:00] <briansuda>
you can't be in all those places at the same time
- [23:11:11] <briansuda>
http://austin.adactio.com/ is a good example of multple places and geos
- [23:11:39] <tantek_>
yes
- [23:11:55] <kingryan>
<li class="vcard"><span class="fn">my parking spot</span> <span class="geo">...
- [23:11:57] <bewest>
ah that turned out nice
- [23:11:59] <bewest>
whose is that?
- [23:12:10] <bewest>
is that DanC's?
- [23:12:22] <tantek_>
adactio is by Jeremy Keith
- [23:12:50] <tantek_>
yes, you can use hCards for named locations
- [23:13:06] <bewest>
ok
- [23:13:12] * bewest concedes
- [23:13:22] <kingryan>
or, if you just want points, you can use geos on their own [http://microformats.org/wiki/geo]
- [23:13:44] <bewest>
yeah, I see that... but does it make sense to include an hcard inside a geo?
- [23:13:45] <tantek_>
right
- [23:13:51] <tantek_>
no
- [23:13:53] * briansuda looks for that Video Demo of real-time GEO syncing
- [23:13:57] <tantek_>
geo goes inside hCard
- [23:14:28] <bewest>
so you could have a master hCard, several locations as individual hCards with a geo, and then transclude the right information into the child hcards from the "master"?
- [23:14:56] <tantek_>
transclusion seems like the wrong relationship
- [23:16:38] <tantek_>
the geo in an hCard is *the* location of the object named by the hCard
- [23:19:48] <DanC>
re "not constrained by crappy implementions"... I don't put much stock in parts of RFCs that haven't been implemented widely.
- [23:20:34] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:21:27] <DanC>
one of the main premises of hCard is that you can import the data right into popular addressbook tools. If your data gets mangled in the process, that's no fun. Multiple ORGs seems pretty iffy.
- [23:22:05] <DanC>
The RFC has a sort of interesting-looking group feature; it suggests you can give a home email/phone/address, a work email/phone/address, etc; but I've never seen a tool that supports it.
- [23:22:32] <briansuda>
I can see the argument both ways... we have multiple numbers in a single entry for a person, and those will be home, work, work2 numbers...
- [23:22:48] <tantek_>
DanC, I've seen various tools that support it to various degrees
- [23:22:59] <tantek_>
e.g. Microsoft Entourage supports separate home and work address etc.
- [23:23:04] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
- [23:23:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [23:23:24] <briansuda>
on the other hand, having a list of titles and roles that you cannot directly connect to which ORG doesn't seem quite right to me
- [23:23:41] <DanC>
hmm... "Implementations that do not understand or support
- [23:23:41] <DanC>
grouping MAY simply strip off any text before a "." to the left of
- [23:23:41] <DanC>
the type name and present the types and values as normal.
- [23:23:41] <DanC>
"
- [23:23:47] <DanC>
-- http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2425.html
- [23:24:05] <DanC>
but does entourage write out vcards using the group syntax?
- [23:24:27] <tantek>
doesn't matter
- [23:24:35] <tantek>
as long as you have some backward compat it is good enough
- [23:24:37] * vant (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:24:52] <tantek>
don't expect all implementations to support the same/full level of fidelity/hierarchy/semantics
- [23:25:03] <tantek>
expect there will be a spectrum of implementations, and work with it
- [23:25:27] <tantek>
encouraging implementations through market pressure to go further up along the spectrum of fidelity/quality/hiearchy etc.
- [23:26:50] <DanC>
I wonder to what extent there's any market pressure for vcard interop. It's one of many IETF specs that sits at proposed standard...
- [23:27:09] <tantek>
there's market pressure both for interop, and for higher quality sync
- [23:27:26] * DanC was just reading "Questions about the standards track" http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-newtrk-questions-00.txt
- [23:28:31] <DanC>
really? I'd be interested to see any sort of pressure. All the sync tools I've seen say "sometimes we screw up data that comes from other tools. deal."
- [23:29:27] <tantek>
nope. vendors such as Palm, BlackBerry etc. have *a lot* of incentive to outdo each other in terms of interop with desktop address books
- [23:29:35] <tantek>
it's constantly getting better every year
- [23:30:08] <tantek>
and the desktops are competing against each other
- [23:30:25] <tantek>
e.g. Apple Address Book has leapfrogged many others
- [23:30:25] <DanC>
hmm... I suppose so... but don't they pretty much define "desktop addressbooks" as "outlook"? Is vcard really relevant?
- [23:31:15] <tantek>
yep, there is enough competition to see improvements over the years
- [23:31:21] <tantek>
plus outlook itself is improving every couple of years
- [23:31:50] <tantek>
and with the rise of web services that sync vcards etc.
- [23:31:51] <bewest>
?? you've never seen an implementation?
- [23:32:03] <tantek>
is that a question?
- [23:32:15] <bewest>
my cell phone supports storing multiple locations per person
- [23:32:22] <bewest>
iirs it's vcard-able
- [23:32:26] <tantek>
yep
- [23:32:26] <bewest>
erm iirc
- [23:32:27] <tantek>
exactly
- [23:32:34] <DanC>
outlook's vcard interop is improving? That's sorta surprising the #1 player doesn't have much motivation to do standards.
- [23:32:52] <tantek>
you're assuming that's the only reason which is a false assumption
- [23:32:56] <DanC>
does your cellphone support rfc2425 group syntax? i.e. home.tel: ...
- [23:33:22] <bewest>
I've never explorted my cell phone's address book
- [23:33:25] <tantek>
DanC, what is RFC2425 Group Syntax?
- [23:33:38] <tantek>
I don't remember reading anything in RFC2425 about that.
- [23:33:38] <DanC>
contentline = group "."] name *(";" param) ":" value CRLF
- [23:33:41] <bewest>
sheesh my spelling is funny today
- [23:33:57] <DanC>
I think there's a missing [ in that grammar production
- [23:34:08] <DanC>
"The group construct is used to group related attributes together. ..."
- [23:34:11] <tantek>
is this something in the grammar that is undefined in the prose?
- [23:34:12] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:34:13] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
- [23:34:57] <DanC>
8.3 Example 3 exhibits the group syntax...
- [23:34:58] <DanC>
email;internet:mb@goerlitz.de
- [23:34:58] <DanC>
home.tel;type=fax,voice,msg:+49 3581 123456
- [23:35:31] <tantek>
"type-grouping feature of [MIME-DIR]" fascinating
- [23:35:32] <briansuda>
vCard is RFC2426, which references RFC2425
- [23:36:02] <tantek>
my quote was from RFC2426
- [23:37:34] <kingryan>
hmm, I can't believe I missed this in previous readings
- [23:38:45] <briansuda>
<span class="work.tel">...?
- [23:38:51] <kingryan>
ick
- [23:38:52] * briansuda smells CURIEs
- [23:39:00] <DanC>
I can. it's easy to miss. And I've never seen it produced by any tool.
- [23:39:06] * DanC wanders off to dinner...
- [23:39:17] <kingryan>
bye, DanC
- [23:39:23] <kingryan>
briansuda: CURIE?
- [23:40:31] <briansuda>
don't ask.... that has been the thread for the last MONTH on the RDF/a mailing list, it is there attempt at namespacing in class values (vcard:fn foaf:mailbox)
- [23:40:50] <kingryan>
ah, yes
- [23:54:52] <tantek>
yeah, the "we need to invent a new URI scheme just for our format" layer cross-dependency mistake
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