IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:08] <pnhChris> .... as in WikiWord
  2. [00:00:14] <pnhChris> not all lowercase
  3. [00:00:22] <pnhChris> (or other variations)
  4. [00:00:34] <deanero> ah. thanks
  5. [00:00:41] <pnhChris> np
  6. [00:01:51] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  7. [00:01:52] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  8. [00:02:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  9. [00:11:57] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  12. [00:38:55] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7044 * DeanEro * (+859) Examples from larger indie bands/labels
  13. [00:47:14] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  14. [00:47:15] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  19. [00:57:01] <mfbot> [[User:DeanEro]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DeanEro * DeanEro * (+59)
  20. [01:02:07] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7045 * DeanEro * (+125) Artist pages -
  21. [01:06:23] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=7046 * ChristopheDucamp * (+63) beginning to integrate some tests of microformats editable on a wikihomepage
  22. [01:14:34] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7047 * DeanEro * (+466) Added release sites-- usually produced by labels in conjunction with record releases
  23. [01:17:20] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7048 * DeanEro * (-9) Artist pages -
  24. [01:18:41] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7049 * DeanEro * (-9) Fixed my misformatted links
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  29. [01:44:21] <deanero> i seem to be subverting music-examples in the direction of my problem-domain-- it looks like it doesn't really have any real info in it that doesn't live in media-info..
  30. [02:11:44] * LTjake_ (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  31. [02:24:20] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  32. [02:24:21] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  33. [02:24:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  34. [02:35:50] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
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  36. [02:41:19] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  37. [02:41:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  38. [02:41:34] <Remi> hey guys, I made a little rough version of a 3d microformats logo: http://remiprevost.com/images/wallpapers/microformats/mf-3d.jpg
  39. [02:47:32] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
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  42. [03:09:44] <alexandermuse> General question: Our hResume plugin pings http://rpc.technorati.com/rpc/ping when you update your resume. Will this automatically ping Pingerati?
  43. [03:09:53] <alexandermuse> Or, should we bake in a specific Pingerati URI?
  44. [03:13:35] <alexandermuse> Anyone online?
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  47. [03:14:34] <alexandermuse> Anyone online tonight?
  48. [03:16:52] * valmont (n=chrishol@dsl092-043-004.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  51. [03:36:14] <DanC> hmm... odd... why does hcard call it 'category' when the rfc says 'categories' ?
  52. [03:48:13] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  53. [03:52:31] * evan_ is now known as evanpro
  54. [03:59:57] <mfbot> [[events/anniversary/1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/anniversary/1&diff=0&oldid=7050 * Rohit * (+34) Organizers -
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  58. [04:10:36] <alexandermuse> Anyone online who can help me with pingerati?
  59. [04:14:43] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
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  65. [04:50:01] <tantek> DanC - see singularization in the spec
  66. [04:50:21] <DanC> yes, found that
  67. [04:50:27] <DanC> and a number of other nooks and crannies
  68. [04:51:29] * DanC is now learning about multiple types, as in type=dom,intl
  69. [04:56:18] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  70. [05:04:10] <mfbot> [[events/anniversary/1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/anniversary/1&diff=0&oldid=7051 * Tantek * (+300) added flickr tag search for photos, added a requisite party photo
  71. [05:06:14] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  72. [05:06:51] <DanC> hmm... I don't think I'm up to 16-honorific-additional-multiple tonight
  73. [05:15:03] <DanC> well, it seems to work in my addressbook. http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/vcardin.py (along with contacts.kid and icslex.py) that is
  74. [05:15:26] <DanC> on my addressbook
  75. [05:32:50] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/undefined]")
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  84. [08:07:55] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  104. [10:43:32] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  105. [12:21:19] <mfbot> [[buttons-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=7052 * ChristopheDucamp * (+73) Style 2 - minor edits
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  114. [13:28:45] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  115. [13:28:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  116. [13:31:04] <chimezie> jibot, help
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  123. [14:08:32] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  127. [14:13:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  128. [14:13:28] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  129. [14:14:02] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  130. [14:14:03] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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  133. [14:22:14] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  134. [14:22:15] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  135. [14:27:53] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
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  137. [14:38:23] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7053 * DrewMcLellan * (+52) People on irc -
  138. [14:44:20] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7054 * DrewMcLellan * (+14) bots -
  139. [14:44:41] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7055 * DrewMcLellan * (+14) Greetings -
  140. [14:46:18] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  141. [14:46:18] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  142. [14:46:25] <drewinthehead> :)
  143. [14:46:44] <pnhChris> mornin'
  144. [14:46:47] <pnhChris> (or afternoon)
  145. [14:46:53] <drewinthehead> afternoon
  146. [14:47:03] <tantek_> good morning ;)
  147. [14:47:07] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  148. [14:47:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  149. [14:47:24] <drewinthehead> just installed the latest Colloquy beta (v2.1 nightly) - love it.
  150. [14:47:29] <drewinthehead> morning tantek_
  151. [14:49:08] <tantek> hey drew, I added hKit and you to the implementations/implementors page: http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations
  152. [14:49:38] <tantek> so now I'm tagging you in to add two more (microformats implementations that you know of)
  153. [14:49:57] <tantek> and you can tag them to do the same
  154. [14:50:02] <tantek> :)
  155. [14:50:03] <drewinthehead> ok, sounds fair ;)
  156. [14:50:09] * pnhChris hides
  157. [14:50:15] * drewinthehead coughs
  158. [14:50:21] <tantek> ah! perfect candidate.
  159. [14:53:11] <drewinthehead> tantek - do you think there's a case for splitting implementations up into 3 parts: publishers, tools for publishing, tools for consuming?
  160. [14:53:27] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  161. [14:53:28] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  162. [14:54:00] <tantek> drew, I'm thinking of doing that only on the spec pages themselves
  163. [14:54:07] * pnhChris is too busy reloading ups.com to edit a wiki today
  164. [14:54:15] <tantek> figuring either you want a flat list of implementations/implementors
  165. [14:54:26] <tantek> or you're interested in a specific type of implementation for a specific microformat
  166. [14:54:50] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) has joined #microformats
  167. [14:55:01] <tantek> I've started to do that kind of "parts" split with hCalendar: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar#Implementations
  168. [14:55:05] <tantek> hey alex!
  169. [14:55:44] <drewinthehead> ok, I'll buy that :)
  170. [14:56:04] <tantek> the purpose of the implementations/implementors page is somewhat to find things, but more to recognize the products and people/companies behind them for their good work. hence an overall "roster" I think makes sense.
  171. [14:57:19] <tantek> drew, BTW, if you have ideas/feedback on a taxonomy for splitting up the implementations, I would appreciate the input/feedback. My current thinking is here: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#for_all_microformat_specs
  172. [14:58:11] * drewinthehead go looks
  173. [15:00:51] <trovster> Hey tantek, know any problems with the hatom2atom script?
  174. [15:02:17] <tantek> I think it is still very much "in development"
  175. [15:02:51] <tantek> of course if you find problems, note them in the wiki just underneath the listing for the script: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Implementations
  176. [15:02:57] <trovster> Because I've found a problem. It requires XHTML, but when I send it as XHTML application/xml then it complains. Works wi the same 'xhtml' as text/html
  177. [15:03:19] <tantek> that's definitely worth noting, along with a test case URL that demonstrates the problem
  178. [15:04:05] <trovster> test-case URL is in development/private and depends on me sending as application/xhtml+xml, which I'm not doing (especially not in development, because of the yellow-screen-of-death)
  179. [15:07:44] <pnhChris> something you can pack up, no? sure someone can find someplace to send it with different headers
  180. [15:07:50] <drewinthehead> it's more beige isn't it?
  181. [15:08:14] <trovster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YSoD ;)
  182. [15:08:53] * pnhChris creates BeSoD at wikipedia
  183. [15:09:29] <pnhChris> "sorta like YSoD, but for some people its beige"
  184. [15:12:00] <drewinthehead> i'd prefer the "dark angel of beigeness"
  185. [15:22:05] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7056 * DrewMcLellan * (+379) Technorati Tags -
  186. [15:22:22] * briansuda just pushed TESTS and X2V to hg.microformats.org, be sure to pull and update
  187. [15:23:03] <drewinthehead> pnhChris, does the above wiki edit look accurate to you?
  188. [15:23:21] <mfbot> [[implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7057 * Tantek * (+0) typo
  189. [15:23:47] <tantek> drew, be sure to list Chris as a developer as well
  190. [15:24:00] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations#Companies_.2F_Developers_.2F_Organizations
  191. [15:24:34] <tantek> with a fragment id link to the implementation entry you just entered
  192. [15:26:50] <pnhChris> sure drew
  193. [15:27:17] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=7058 * DrewMcLellan * (+98) Dan Cederholm -
  194. [15:29:05] * drewinthehead passes the /wiki/implementations baton to pnhChris
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  200. [16:02:57] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=7059 * ChristopheDucamp * (+399) sync with original page : ajout Textpattern plugins
  201. [16:04:57] <kingryan> trovster
  202. [16:05:09] <kingryan> talk to robertbachmann about the hatom xslt
  203. [16:05:27] <briansuda> kingryan, i pushed to HG, be sure to pull/update
  204. [16:05:36] <kingryan> k
  205. [16:06:00] * trovster has never seen him speak!
  206. [16:07:18] <mfbot> [[irc-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7060 * ChristopheDucamp * (+45) synchro with irc+ typo
  207. [16:08:14] <mfbot> [[irc-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7061 * ChristopheDucamp * (+11) Les gens sur irc -
  208. [16:08:50] <mfbot> [[irc-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-fr&diff=0&oldid=7062 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Les gens sur irc -
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  210. [16:10:15] <jibot> xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
  211. [16:11:58] <chimezie> ? def chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  212. [16:11:59] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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  215. [16:20:56] <DanC> brian, localhost snuck into http://hg.microformats.org/tests/?cs=5d583383496c again
  216. [16:21:35] <briansuda> i know, i think i pushed a second time? Ryan is fixing that and giving me a path option at the command line
  217. [16:22:39] * kisu (n=kisu@cielkisu.tb.as8758.net) has joined #microformats
  218. [16:22:59] <DanC> ah... yes, I see the fix now. http://hg.microformats.org/tests/?cs=e7770e40bbb3
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  221. [16:30:05] <alexandermuse> Anyone familiar with pingerati? Specifically what URI do I use to send hResume pings?
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  223. [16:30:42] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  224. [16:31:31] <briansuda> DanC, be sure to pull X2V code as well, i just commited a small change to escape ','s correctly
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  231. [17:25:48] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  232. [17:25:48] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  233. [17:26:06] * SegFault7 (n=antonio@cpe-0013103471ce.cpe.cableonda.net) has left #microformats
  234. [17:26:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  235. [17:27:24] <tantek> hey alex
  236. [17:27:44] <tantek> for resume pings, you want to ping resumes.pingerati.net/ping/URLofResume
  237. [17:28:05] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
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  239. [17:29:18] <KevinMarks> do we have a container marker fro resumes?
  240. [17:32:44] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  241. [17:32:45] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  242. [17:32:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  244. [17:38:04] <tantek> Kevinmarks, see hResume spec :)
  245. [17:38:21] <KevinMarks> ooh, it's a spec now? cool
  246. [17:38:48] * ichigo (n=ichigo@M838P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Connection timed out)
  247. [17:40:11] <tantek> yeah, just do an "I'm feeling lucky" on "hResume"
  248. [17:40:13] <tantek> :D
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  254. [18:04:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  255. [18:04:18] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  258. [18:17:04] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
  259. [18:18:45] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  260. [18:19:48] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  261. [18:19:49] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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  265. [18:32:58] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  266. [18:33:45] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=7063 * Chucker * (+559) msnim: reference
  267. [18:34:59] * vant (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving...")
  268. [18:35:19] <tantek> cool. "msnim:" protocol works with Messenger 7.5 or later.
  269. [18:35:23] <tantek> good to know
  270. [18:35:40] * ryanlowe_ is now known as lyanrowe
  271. [18:36:16] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N033P009.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("g2g")
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  275. [18:55:47] <KevinMarks> how long before that's 'liveim' ?
  276. [18:57:32] * lyanrowe is now known as ryanlowe
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  283. [19:23:14] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  291. [20:08:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  292. [20:08:29] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  298. [20:17:44] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  304. [20:47:15] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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  312. [21:11:54] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  317. [21:31:27] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  318. [21:31:27] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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  329. [22:05:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  330. [22:05:22] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  331. [22:15:11] * vant_ (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. [22:18:23] <kingryan> hey briansuda
  333. [22:18:31] <briansuda> evening
  334. [22:18:31] <kingryan> I think I found an erroneous test
  335. [22:18:39] <briansuda> which number?
  336. [22:18:43] <briansuda> i made a few changes today
  337. [22:18:47] <kingryan> hcard/33 doesn't have the implied-n thing, though there are proper fn's there
  338. [22:19:25] <briansuda> yes, i changed that from earlier
  339. [22:19:36] <kingryan> huh?
  340. [22:19:40] <briansuda> that is a tricky one, because the FN == ORG even though they are on different element
  341. [22:19:43] <briansuda> elements
  342. [22:19:56] <briansuda> so N:;;;; is blank
  343. [22:19:57] <kingryan> ah, ok I forgot about that part
  344. [22:20:18] <briansuda> we should probably make a comment in the HTML so we don't forget
  345. [22:20:30] <briansuda> or move those tests to a separate number
  346. [22:20:44] <briansuda> (types of test) to a separate numbered file...
  347. [22:20:50] <kingryan> yeah
  348. [22:21:01] <kingryan> what if there's more than one org?
  349. [22:21:10] <kingryan> does this only happen if there's one org?
  350. [22:21:16] <briansuda> i'm pretty sure that can only be singular...
  351. [22:21:23] <kingryan> org?
  352. [22:21:23] <briansuda> you can have multiple org-units
  353. [22:21:28] <kingryan> I don't think so
  354. [22:21:45] <kingryan> tantek and I talked about this yesterday and there doesn't seem to be any constraint in the rfc about that
  355. [22:21:52] <kingryan> tantek_?
  356. [22:22:27] * briansuda is looking
  357. [22:23:01] * Remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  358. [22:23:01] <jibot> Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  359. [22:23:04] <tantek_> there is no constraint in the RFC about the number of orgs
  360. [22:23:09] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  361. [22:23:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  362. [22:23:40] <kingryan> so, then, tantek, should the org==fn => organization hcard only apply if there's a single org in the hcard?
  363. [22:23:53] * vant (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  364. [22:24:23] <tantek> yes
  365. [22:24:33] <tantek> what would it mean if the fn matched *one* of the orgs?
  366. [22:24:38] <tantek> that seems like an error
  367. [22:24:46] <kingryan> I know. that's why I'm asking
  368. [22:24:50] <briansuda> i know this is splitting hairs, but ....
  369. [22:24:51] <briansuda> Type purpose: To specify the organizational name and units associated
  370. [22:24:51] <briansuda> with the vCard.
  371. [22:24:59] <tantek> unless perhaps we're trying to capture the semantic of an org itself belonging to an org?
  372. [22:25:05] <briansuda> it says "the organization name" rather than "an organization name"
  373. [22:25:10] <tantek> e.g. orgs often sponsor other orgs
  374. [22:25:39] <briansuda> i don't disagree, but then ROLE applies to which ORG?
  375. [22:25:48] <briansuda> and TITLE?
  376. [22:26:09] <briansuda> if you have multiple ORGS, and multiple titles then there is no correlation
  377. [22:26:28] <tantek> briansuda, that is insufficient
  378. [22:26:28] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  379. [22:26:35] <tantek> it also says "To specify the electronic mail address"
  380. [22:26:38] <tantek> in defn of EMAIL
  381. [22:26:46] <tantek> and we know you can have multiple EMAILs
  382. [22:27:17] <briansuda> EMAIL also has TYPE, so you can specify multiple... ORG does not
  383. [22:27:17] <tantek> similarly for ADR: "To specify the components of the delivery address for
  384. [22:27:17] <tantek> the vCard object."
  385. [22:27:20] <tantek> uses "the"
  386. [22:27:24] <tantek> but you can specify multiple
  387. [22:27:31] <tantek> TYPE has nothing to do with it
  388. [22:28:08] <tantek> the point is that the use of the word "the" is insufficient to imply singularity of a property in the spec
  389. [22:28:21] <tantek> you have to look at the specific semantics of each property
  390. [22:28:41] <tantek> I looked at this in detail a while ago, and Ryan King and I combed the definitions of the properties again yesterday.
  391. [22:28:47] <kingryan> and the author's examples, where they use multiple tel's and emails
  392. [22:28:59] <tantek> yes
  393. [22:28:59] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  394. [22:29:07] <tantek> I believe Ryan has a list of what appears to be required singleton properties.
  395. [22:29:10] <kingryan> of course, they also don't have N's
  396. [22:29:21] <tantek> yep, that's where we got the implied N rule
  397. [22:29:26] <kingryan> yeah
  398. [22:29:34] <tantek> I need to add the list of singletons properties explicitly to hCard
  399. [22:29:38] <briansuda> So can you have multiple TITLES? and/or ROLES?
  400. [22:29:52] <tantek> since it is too hard/obtuse to find them in the vCard spec (takes too long to read thoroughly and argue it out)
  401. [22:29:53] <kingryan> singletons: fn, n, bday, tz, geo, sort-string, uid, class
  402. [22:29:57] <tantek> briansuda, yes
  403. [22:30:21] <briansuda> Well, if you can have multiple ADRs why not multiple GEO?
  404. [22:30:35] <kingryan> b/c they have different definitions
  405. [22:30:49] <kingryan> GEO seems to only apply to your location, not locations related to you
  406. [22:32:59] <briansuda> are there any applications that actually support having multiple organizations?
  407. [22:33:28] <tantek> briansuda, that's not the point, hCard is conveying the semantics of vCard, not the semantics of the applications that support vCard
  408. [22:33:39] <tantek> that's a very important distinction
  409. [22:33:50] <tantek> and how we avoid being cornered by crappy implementations
  410. [22:34:02] <briansuda> i'm just wondering if anyone else might have had these same discussions and made a conclusion in our favour
  411. [22:35:50] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  412. [22:36:14] <briansuda> you should also add REV to the list of propeties that can only appear once, i don't think you can have multiple last-updated datetime stamps
  413. [22:36:33] <kingryan> ah, yes, missed that one
  414. [22:37:26] <briansuda> NOTE is singleton in vCard, and we are allowing multiple in hCard, but they are concatenated. so that probably should be mentioned then as well
  415. [22:37:58] <tantek> briansuda, I'm actually not convinced that NOTE is singleton in vCard
  416. [22:40:52] <briansuda> well, what about NICKNAME and CATEGORIES, both say they take a list of values, is there any need to have multiple NICKNAME properties with lists in each? those can be concated together.
  417. [22:42:36] <briansuda> so what is the general thought about FN == ORG where ORG has multiple entries?
  418. [22:42:58] <briansuda> and then we should write a test for that.
  419. [22:45:40] <kingryan> I think it only makes sense when there's 1 org
  420. [22:46:19] <tantek> well it is easy enough to handle
  421. [22:46:31] <tantek> if the FN matches *ANY* ORG, then that is the ORG that the hCard represents
  422. [22:46:41] <tantek> we leave the semantics of the other ORGs as undefined for now
  423. [22:48:20] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  424. [22:55:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties * Tantek * (+2208) first draft
  425. [22:55:27] <kingryan> wow 2k of writing?
  426. [22:55:56] <kingryan> I like how the analysis appeals to physics
  427. [22:57:03] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) Quit ()
  428. [22:57:06] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7064 * Tantek * (+331) Singular vs. Plural Properties -
  429. [22:57:18] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  430. [22:57:52] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=7065 * Tantek * (+149) added editor/author/contributor
  431. [22:59:48] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=7066 * Brian * (-10) Corrected Author URLs
  432. [23:00:43] <tantek> heh, thanks Brian.
  433. [23:01:10] <bewest> so if you want to describe several places you can be contacted, you'd do multiple hCards and transclude the necessary bits?
  434. [23:01:22] <bewest> is there a test for that? :-)
  435. [23:02:17] <bewest> rev only applies to revision time?
  436. [23:02:39] <bewest> is geo a property of hcalendar? /me forgets
  437. [23:02:55] <bewest> geo is a property of adr which is a property of hcal
  438. [23:03:08] <kingryan> no, geo is not a part of adr
  439. [23:03:10] <tantek> no
  440. [23:03:14] <bewest> oh.
  441. [23:03:16] <tantek> right, what kingryan said
  442. [23:03:17] <kingryan> geo is part of [v,h]card
  443. [23:03:21] <tantek> geo and adr are orthogonal
  444. [23:03:29] <tantek> that's a common misconception
  445. [23:03:39] <bewest> hmm
  446. [23:03:46] <bewest> hmm
  447. [23:04:00] <bewest> I could have sworn adr enclosed geo
  448. [23:04:14] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7067 * AndyBaio * (+32) Design Patterns -
  449. [23:05:22] <bewest> sure enough
  450. [23:05:23] <bewest> hmm
  451. [23:05:27] <bewest> why did I think that
  452. [23:05:39] <briansuda> bewest, if you want several places/phones/address you can put them all into one ( h | v )Card
  453. [23:05:40] <bewest> in any case, how would you proprose describing where you might be using geo?
  454. [23:06:17] <bewest> heh proprose
  455. [23:06:29] <briansuda> GEO is a point, where as ADR is a polygon, that is one difference, and as we have just discussed, you can have multiple ADRs, but only one GEO
  456. [23:06:36] <bewest> right
  457. [23:07:11] <bewest> so how would you give a list of geo's to look for you
  458. [23:07:14] <briansuda> REV is a timestamp (last-modified is the iCalendar equivalent) it can be used for syncing and determining the freshness of data
  459. [23:07:23] <bewest> like... if I'm not at home, you might find me at the beach... barring that check work
  460. [23:07:31] <bewest> and give geo for each one
  461. [23:07:46] <briansuda> as it stands now, you can't
  462. [23:08:06] <briansuda> you can certainly do it in plain HTML, but you would not be able to mark it up with hCard
  463. [23:08:17] <bewest> so mapendar is impossible with microformats
  464. [23:08:27] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  465. [23:08:31] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback * AndyBaio * (+629)
  466. [23:08:38] <briansuda> the other thing is that you'd have to find example of people actually mapping multiple GEO coordinates
  467. [23:08:49] <briansuda> as it stands, you only ever map ONE is that!
  468. [23:08:58] <bewest> I guess you can finagle a mapping of hcalendar and transclude your hcard
  469. [23:09:04] <briansuda> mapendar is certainly still possible
  470. [23:09:17] <bewest> I map multiple geo coordinates all the time
  471. [23:09:23] <briansuda> each way point is a different organization and would be marked-up with different hCards
  472. [23:09:26] <bewest> actually it's relatively common, I would imagine
  473. [23:09:34] <bewest> let's say I go off to college
  474. [23:09:41] <bewest> and I want to show someone where my favorite haunts are
  475. [23:09:47] <bewest> I'd map them all as /my/ locations
  476. [23:09:58] <bewest> places I belong
  477. [23:10:08] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  478. [23:10:13] <briansuda> correct, but each would be a different point and a different organization and a different hcard
  479. [23:10:18] <bewest> I don't think so
  480. [23:10:22] <bewest> they would be different geos
  481. [23:10:29] <bewest> but the org/hcard is the same
  482. [23:10:39] <kingryan> each of your "haunts" can have its own hcard
  483. [23:10:44] <bewest> eg this is /my/ parking spot... this is /my/ office this is /my/ classroom
  484. [23:11:00] <briansuda> you can't be in all those places at the same time
  485. [23:11:11] <briansuda> http://austin.adactio.com/ is a good example of multple places and geos
  486. [23:11:39] <tantek_> yes
  487. [23:11:55] <kingryan> <li class="vcard"><span class="fn">my parking spot</span> <span class="geo">...
  488. [23:11:57] <bewest> ah that turned out nice
  489. [23:11:59] <bewest> whose is that?
  490. [23:12:10] <bewest> is that DanC's?
  491. [23:12:22] <tantek_> adactio is by Jeremy Keith
  492. [23:12:50] <tantek_> yes, you can use hCards for named locations
  493. [23:13:06] <bewest> ok
  494. [23:13:12] * bewest concedes
  495. [23:13:22] <kingryan> or, if you just want points, you can use geos on their own [http://microformats.org/wiki/geo]
  496. [23:13:44] <bewest> yeah, I see that... but does it make sense to include an hcard inside a geo?
  497. [23:13:45] <tantek_> right
  498. [23:13:51] <tantek_> no
  499. [23:13:53] * briansuda looks for that Video Demo of real-time GEO syncing
  500. [23:13:57] <tantek_> geo goes inside hCard
  501. [23:14:28] <bewest> so you could have a master hCard, several locations as individual hCards with a geo, and then transclude the right information into the child hcards from the "master"?
  502. [23:14:56] <tantek_> transclusion seems like the wrong relationship
  503. [23:16:38] <tantek_> the geo in an hCard is *the* location of the object named by the hCard
  504. [23:19:48] <DanC> re "not constrained by crappy implementions"... I don't put much stock in parts of RFCs that haven't been implemented widely.
  505. [23:20:34] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  506. [23:21:27] <DanC> one of the main premises of hCard is that you can import the data right into popular addressbook tools. If your data gets mangled in the process, that's no fun. Multiple ORGs seems pretty iffy.
  507. [23:22:05] <DanC> The RFC has a sort of interesting-looking group feature; it suggests you can give a home email/phone/address, a work email/phone/address, etc; but I've never seen a tool that supports it.
  508. [23:22:32] <briansuda> I can see the argument both ways... we have multiple numbers in a single entry for a person, and those will be home, work, work2 numbers...
  509. [23:22:48] <tantek_> DanC, I've seen various tools that support it to various degrees
  510. [23:22:59] <tantek_> e.g. Microsoft Entourage supports separate home and work address etc.
  511. [23:23:04] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  512. [23:23:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  513. [23:23:24] <briansuda> on the other hand, having a list of titles and roles that you cannot directly connect to which ORG doesn't seem quite right to me
  514. [23:23:41] <DanC> hmm... "Implementations that do not understand or support
  515. [23:23:41] <DanC> grouping MAY simply strip off any text before a "." to the left of
  516. [23:23:41] <DanC> the type name and present the types and values as normal.
  517. [23:23:41] <DanC> "
  518. [23:23:47] <DanC> -- http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2425.html
  519. [23:24:05] <DanC> but does entourage write out vcards using the group syntax?
  520. [23:24:27] <tantek> doesn't matter
  521. [23:24:35] <tantek> as long as you have some backward compat it is good enough
  522. [23:24:37] * vant (n=vant@c-24-18-237-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  523. [23:24:52] <tantek> don't expect all implementations to support the same/full level of fidelity/hierarchy/semantics
  524. [23:25:03] <tantek> expect there will be a spectrum of implementations, and work with it
  525. [23:25:27] <tantek> encouraging implementations through market pressure to go further up along the spectrum of fidelity/quality/hiearchy etc.
  526. [23:26:50] <DanC> I wonder to what extent there's any market pressure for vcard interop. It's one of many IETF specs that sits at proposed standard...
  527. [23:27:09] <tantek> there's market pressure both for interop, and for higher quality sync
  528. [23:27:26] * DanC was just reading "Questions about the standards track" http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-newtrk-questions-00.txt
  529. [23:28:31] <DanC> really? I'd be interested to see any sort of pressure. All the sync tools I've seen say "sometimes we screw up data that comes from other tools. deal."
  530. [23:29:27] <tantek> nope. vendors such as Palm, BlackBerry etc. have *a lot* of incentive to outdo each other in terms of interop with desktop address books
  531. [23:29:35] <tantek> it's constantly getting better every year
  532. [23:30:08] <tantek> and the desktops are competing against each other
  533. [23:30:25] <tantek> e.g. Apple Address Book has leapfrogged many others
  534. [23:30:25] <DanC> hmm... I suppose so... but don't they pretty much define "desktop addressbooks" as "outlook"? Is vcard really relevant?
  535. [23:31:15] <tantek> yep, there is enough competition to see improvements over the years
  536. [23:31:21] <tantek> plus outlook itself is improving every couple of years
  537. [23:31:50] <tantek> and with the rise of web services that sync vcards etc.
  538. [23:31:51] <bewest> ?? you've never seen an implementation?
  539. [23:32:03] <tantek> is that a question?
  540. [23:32:15] <bewest> my cell phone supports storing multiple locations per person
  541. [23:32:22] <bewest> iirs it's vcard-able
  542. [23:32:26] <tantek> yep
  543. [23:32:26] <bewest> erm iirc
  544. [23:32:27] <tantek> exactly
  545. [23:32:34] <DanC> outlook's vcard interop is improving? That's sorta surprising the #1 player doesn't have much motivation to do standards.
  546. [23:32:52] <tantek> you're assuming that's the only reason which is a false assumption
  547. [23:32:56] <DanC> does your cellphone support rfc2425 group syntax? i.e. home.tel: ...
  548. [23:33:22] <bewest> I've never explorted my cell phone's address book
  549. [23:33:25] <tantek> DanC, what is RFC2425 Group Syntax?
  550. [23:33:38] <tantek> I don't remember reading anything in RFC2425 about that.
  551. [23:33:38] <DanC> contentline = group "."] name *(";" param) ":" value CRLF
  552. [23:33:41] <bewest> sheesh my spelling is funny today
  553. [23:33:57] <DanC> I think there's a missing [ in that grammar production
  554. [23:34:08] <DanC> "The group construct is used to group related attributes together. ..."
  555. [23:34:11] <tantek> is this something in the grammar that is undefined in the prose?
  556. [23:34:12] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  557. [23:34:13] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  558. [23:34:57] <DanC> 8.3 Example 3 exhibits the group syntax...
  559. [23:34:58] <DanC> email;internet:mb@goerlitz.de
  560. [23:34:58] <DanC> home.tel;type=fax,voice,msg:+49 3581 123456
  561. [23:35:31] <tantek> "type-grouping feature of [MIME-DIR]" fascinating
  562. [23:35:32] <briansuda> vCard is RFC2426, which references RFC2425
  563. [23:36:02] <tantek> my quote was from RFC2426
  564. [23:37:34] <kingryan> hmm, I can't believe I missed this in previous readings
  565. [23:38:45] <briansuda> <span class="work.tel">...?
  566. [23:38:51] <kingryan> ick
  567. [23:38:52] * briansuda smells CURIEs
  568. [23:39:00] <DanC> I can. it's easy to miss. And I've never seen it produced by any tool.
  569. [23:39:06] * DanC wanders off to dinner...
  570. [23:39:17] <kingryan> bye, DanC
  571. [23:39:23] <kingryan> briansuda: CURIE?
  572. [23:40:31] <briansuda> don't ask.... that has been the thread for the last MONTH on the RDF/a mailing list, it is there attempt at namespacing in class values (vcard:fn foaf:mailbox)
  573. [23:40:50] <kingryan> ah, yes
  574. [23:54:52] <tantek> yeah, the "we need to invent a new URI scheme just for our format" layer cross-dependency mistake

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