IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:58:26] <tantek>
greetings
- [00:58:38] <tantek>
what are people's experiences with using object-include
- [00:58:43] <tantek>
?
- [01:00:18] <tantek>
it seems that some browsers have problems with it
- [01:00:20] <tantek>
see http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback
- [01:00:23] <tantek>
discuss
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- [02:16:46] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:17:31] <alexandermuse>
Tantek: Ryan around these days? If he will vet the markup we can release our hresume plugin... we think it is done.
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- [02:23:51] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [03:54:28] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [04:47:54] <bewes1>
who was that Israeli guy at barcamp who was working on uf parsers?
- [04:47:58] <bewes1>
he said he had a php parser
- [04:48:56] <bewes1>
was his site labnotes?
- [04:50:07] <MarkDilley>
any insight to the convo at http://www.wikiindex.com/Category_talk:Microformats would be helpful, frankly I am still struggling with the concept
- [04:50:20] <bewes1>
mmMMmm I think it was since it appears to be based on an implementation of getElementsBySelector
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- [05:58:52] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:09:26] <tantek>
I just found this: http://www.blogskins.com/2006/06/goodbye-categories-hello-tags.php
- [06:09:41] <tantek>
"BlogSkins is now publishing all ~340,000 user profiles and ~318,000 skin comments as microformats. "
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- [07:00:44] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [08:04:03] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [09:05:50] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [10:05:26] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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- [10:06:25] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [10:06:45] <trovster>
Is it ?def my new phrase for changing the bot?
- [10:07:36] <drewinthehead>
trovster - instructions at the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
- [10:07:42] <trovster>
Thanks
- [10:09:23] <trovster>
?def trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [10:09:24] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk and a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [10:10:11] <trovster>
?forgetme trovster
- [10:10:11] <jibot>
I have expunged trovster from my mind
- [10:10:14] <trovster>
?def trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [10:10:15] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [10:10:19] <trovster>
That's better.
- [10:21:15] <trovster>
http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats the mfCommet is interesting, althought it should probably create a hCard?
- [10:30:29] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1280 - is this appropriate use of rel-tag?
- [10:31:23] <drewinthehead>
what line?
- [10:32:22] <drewinthehead>
lines 3-6 are ok for rel-teg
- [10:32:41] <drewinthehead>
but not 12-15, they're using fragments
- [10:32:58] <drewinthehead>
the tag in the case of 12-15 would be 'my-links'
- [10:33:11] <trovster>
Right, the second lot are taken with JavaScript...
- [10:33:56] <drewinthehead>
'taken with' ?
- [10:34:25] <trovster>
Well, the source shows part 1, however, that is hijaxed, and converted to the fragment
- [10:34:36] <drewinthehead>
oh ok
- [10:34:58] <drewinthehead>
so it's going to depend which state the DOM is in when the µF is parsed
- [10:35:22] <trovster>
Indeed, I suppose I can remove the rel="" with JavaScript
- [10:35:29] <drewinthehead>
something like a Greasemonkey script would see part 2, and potentially screw up
- [10:35:33] <drewinthehead>
yes, that'd be ok
- [10:36:12] <drewinthehead>
it'd be better just to keep the nice URIs though ;)
- [10:36:57] <trovster>
The nice URIs still exist, though
- [10:37:14] <drewinthehead>
so why change to the fragments?
- [10:38:14] <trovster>
I can pm you the test URL...
- [10:39:44] <drewinthehead>
s'ok, just idly questioning, as questioning minds do :)
- [10:46:23] <drewinthehead>
on the subject of using hCard for comments, what we need is for blog tools to be able to perform the n-optimization
- [10:47:15] <drewinthehead>
but that should actually be pretty easy - I already have n-optimization routines done in PHP. I could probably knock up a TXP plugin in about 5 mins
- [10:47:31] <drewinthehead>
and I bet someone who knows WP's plugin system could do the same
- [10:47:54] <trovster>
"n-optimization routines done in PHP" -- what's this mean, exactly?
- [10:48:26] <drewinthehead>
are you familiar with how the n-optimization stuff goes?
- [10:48:50] <trovster>
Nope.
- [10:49:16] <drewinthehead>
N can be implied from FN if FN fits a small number of known formats
- [10:50:09] <drewinthehead>
so if FN is 'Firstname Lastname' then we can construct GIVEN-NAME and FAMILY-NAME from that
- [10:50:49] <drewinthehead>
but if FN is, say, 'Thomas Vander Wal' we can't
- [10:51:12] <drewinthehead>
and N is required. unless it can be directly implied from FN
- [10:52:16] <drewinthehead>
this is a problem for things like blog comment forms, as you're usually just asking people for the name as one field - which if you then just write out as FN could easily create an invalid hCard
- [10:52:45] <drewinthehead>
with me?
- [10:54:04] <trovster>
OK, so a hCard is only valid if N can be implied?
- [10:54:40] <drewinthehead>
yes, unless N is specified as well, of course. or if it's a card for an org rather than a person.
- [10:55:32] <drewinthehead>
so this is invalid: <div class="vcard"><span class="fn">Thomas Vander Wal</span></div>
- [10:56:07] <trovster>
http://multipack.co.uk/members/stuart-maynard-keene/ - yeh, so that would be invalid if it was Stuard Maynard Keene...
- [10:56:48] <drewinthehead>
right ... the hyphen saves it
- [10:56:51] <trovster>
<div class="vcard"><span class="fn"><span class="n">Thomas</span> Vander Wal</span></div> would be fine, though?
- [10:57:37] <drewinthehead>
no, N needs to include its sub classes (i think .. i don't think it can crunch down)
- [10:58:14] <drewinthehead>
<div class="vcard"><span class="fn n"><span class="given-name">Thomas</span> <span class="family-name">Vander Wal</span></span></div>
- [10:59:48] <drewinthehead>
i love the multipack site, btw
- [11:00:46] <trovster>
Cool. I didn't design it, just built it.
- [11:01:24] <drewinthehead>
so there's about 4/5 different formats the FN can be for us to imply N from it. they're noted here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization
- [11:01:55] <trovster>
Yeh, was just looking there, was going to paste something, until I saw 'two words'
- [11:03:09] <drewinthehead>
what blog software needs is to be able to take the commenter's name, and work out if N can be implied
- [11:03:34] <drewinthehead>
the problem being - what happens if it can't? I guess at the least you could create no hCard
- [11:05:10] <trovster>
Yeh, if it can't be made, then just don't add the hCard
- [11:06:15] <drewinthehead>
or, if you wanted to be clever, you could either put it through a moderation step, or even ask the user
- [11:06:38] <drewinthehead>
but easier might be to have a field for given-name and one for family-name in the first place
- [11:11:15] <trovster>
So, if they type in a name, with two spaces in, add the given-name and family name inputs, could even guess what they might be an fill them
- [11:11:39] <trovster>
Or, select your first name and hit tab, and it fills given-name with that, and family-name with the rest
- [11:11:50] <drewinthehead>
the problem with guessing is you don't know which way to go
- [11:12:38] <drewinthehead>
Jesse James Garrett vs Thomas Vander Wal in an n-optimization death match
- [11:13:15] <trovster>
'Jesse James' given-name?
- [11:13:23] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has left #microformats
- [11:17:37] <drewinthehead>
that's it, you'd need to ask :)
- [11:17:50] <drewinthehead>
I think so, but the James may be an additional-name
- [12:02:12] <trovster>
Could hatom be used on an archives page, which has the month posted, title and permalink?
- [12:05:31] <trovster>
Wow, author is required on hatom
- [12:13:25] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1282 - hatom default?
- [12:13:36] <drewinthehead>
author is required for the feed isn't it?
- [12:14:12] <drewinthehead>
the hAtom spec is not intuitive
- [12:15:10] <drewinthehead>
trovster, that URL should be fine ... it's relative, so the parser should put it in context for the URL of the page, and any BASE or XML:BASE present
- [12:16:29] <trovster>
author is required for feed, yes. I'm saying my hentry doesn't have an author vcard, but the spec says nearest vcard parent, so it would use the #branding one?
- [12:23:04] <drewinthehead>
if that's inside the feed, then yes, it should
- [12:29:20] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
- [12:29:21] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
- [12:30:17] <trovster>
What defines <feed><title>this</title> and not <entry><title> ?
- [12:30:27] <trovster>
It's taking it from the <title> of the HTML page
- [12:34:36] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1283/view => http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http://paste.css-standards.org/1283/view&ctype=text/xml
- [12:37:04] <drewinthehead>
yeah, it seems to be
- [12:37:38] <trovster>
I've looked over the spec, and there seems no way to be able to set it...
- [12:38:14] <drewinthehead>
agreed
- [12:38:40] <drewinthehead>
as the feed is of the page, I guess it's correct that the title is the same
- [12:38:53] <trovster>
OK.
- [12:42:58] <trovster>
OK, http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples#Transformation_3 - why are there multiple 'entry-content' ?
- [12:48:46] <drewinthehead>
in parsing those should get concatenated, I think
- [12:49:42] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [12:49:43] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [12:49:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
- [12:50:13] <drewinthehead>
although I'm not sure on that ... it looks like entries are being implied from entry-content
- [12:50:28] <dglazkov>
hey drewinthehead
- [12:50:43] <drewinthehead>
hey dglazkov
- [12:51:23] <drewinthehead>
hAtom is a bloody mystery ... I'm sure someone understands it, but it could do with better documenting
- [12:52:13] <dglazkov>
it's only 0.1, so yep :)
- [12:53:25] <dglazkov>
what's the problem?
- [12:53:29] <trovster>
Oh, glad it's not just me going 'wth'!
- [12:53:41] <drewinthehead>
what lies between 0.1 and 1.0, dglazkov?
- [12:54:07] <trovster>
reverse(0.1);
- [12:54:09] <dglazkov>
lotsa work, but even in 0.1, it think hAtom is workable
- [12:54:33] <dglazkov>
david janes basically wrote the first draft.
- [12:55:01] <dglazkov>
I haven't been part of some discussion, but I always listened :)
- [12:56:10] <drewinthehead>
I agree that it's workable (or appears so), which is what prompted the question
- [12:56:36] <drewinthehead>
i'm wondering if it's worth the documentation effort at this stage, or whether it's under documented because it's still very much in flux
- [12:57:19] <dglazkov>
Is the problem in the hatom-issues?
- [12:57:46] <dglazkov>
er... rephrase. is the problem documented in hatom-issues (http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues)
- [12:59:17] <drewinthehead>
wow ... that's a fiendish document
- [13:00:04] <dglazkov>
lotta work :)
- [13:00:58] <trovster>
dglazkov: You an hatom specialist then? :)
- [13:01:05] <dglazkov>
doh!
- [13:01:15] <dglazkov>
I am hatom generalist :)
- [13:01:48] <dglazkov>
but I can try to help answer the questions
- [13:02:03] <trovster>
Just pasting some stuff
- [13:02:40] <drewinthehead>
the question that was just raised was regarding Transformation 3
- [13:02:56] <drewinthehead>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples#Transformation_3
- [13:03:19] <drewinthehead>
are the entries implied from entry-content?
- [13:03:29] <trovster>
Well, that's one of them, not my question now...
- [13:03:29] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1284
- [13:03:55] <drewinthehead>
that's my question now then .. i've adopted it :)
- [13:04:15] <drewinthehead>
my instinct would be to concatenate all the entry-contents
- [13:04:15] <trovster>
No, you can't have it... well, ok then, seen as you help 'n all that
- [13:06:07] <dglazkov>
the #aritcles?
- [13:06:29] <trovster>
Yes.
- [13:06:44] <dglazkov>
hang on -- this is a cool little tool, btw
- [13:07:32] <drewinthehead>
brb
- [13:07:35] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
- [13:07:45] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1285 is what I came up with, so far
- [13:09:07] <dglazkov>
it's good, except need to add author and updated
- [13:09:31] <trovster>
Well, it says author is implied from the nearest parent vcard... which is in #branding
- [13:10:00] <dglazkov>
then, it has to be an ADDRESS
- [13:10:51] <trovster>
argh
- [13:11:41] <dglazkov>
and you can't use address in this particular markup, 'cause address is inline
- [13:12:01] <dglazkov>
and you have P, H1 markup inside that div
- [13:12:58] <trovster>
<h1><address><a> or <h1><a><address> which is more appropriatE?
- [13:14:45] <dglazkov>
the first one looks good. Hang on
- [13:15:07] * dglazkov wants to use paste.css-standards.org :)
- [13:15:16] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
- [13:16:12] <dglazkov>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1287
- [13:16:39] <dglazkov>
hey drew
- [13:16:53] <drewinthehead>
hey :)
- [13:16:54] <trovster>
find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author -- <address class="author">
- [13:17:10] <trovster>
dglazkov: Why do you like the pastebin, btw?
- [13:17:23] <dglazkov>
it's open and wiki-like
- [13:17:36] <dglazkov>
and leaves a trail of changes
- [13:17:40] <dglazkov>
just makes sense
- [13:18:01] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1286/view is the best reason ;)
- [13:18:05] <dglazkov>
drewinthehead, Jesse Rodgers and I had this discussion on UWebD
- [13:18:42] <dglazkov>
about starting uf in higher ed wiki
- [13:19:12] <drewinthehead>
yup, i've seen the wiki
- [13:19:19] <dglazkov>
I was first kind of not liking the idea, but then he made a good point
- [13:20:06] <trovster>
So, is it <address class="author"> or <address class="vcard"> with author inside/
- [13:20:40] <dglazkov>
drewinthehead, hang on -- I ran away from trovster discussion :)
- [13:21:09] <trovster>
Yeh drewinthehead, first you 'adopted' my question, now you've 'adopted' dglazkov from me :(
- [13:21:34] <dglazkov>
you don't need author class...
- [13:21:36] <dglazkov>
oh I see
- [13:21:40] <dglazkov>
you have hfeed in the body
- [13:22:31] <dglazkov>
ok, then it's <address class="author vcard">
- [13:23:15] <trovster>
Meh, that means everything inside vcard must be inline...
- [13:23:28] <trovster>
OK, he updated... can I just add title=""
- [13:23:40] <dglazkov>
nope.
- [13:23:57] <dglazkov>
has to be datetime-design-pattern
- [13:24:26] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:27:07] <dglazkov>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1288
- [13:27:55] <trovster>
Heh, I'd switch to a DL for that information.
- [13:28:35] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1290 :) heh
- [13:28:43] <dglazkov>
sure -- I've done that before. Until I started feeling uneasy about DL in general
- [13:29:15] * drewinthehead is being dragged away, but will be back later.
- [13:29:22] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
- [13:30:42] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
- [13:32:18] <trovster>
be back in 10
- [13:39:42] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:39:43] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [13:40:05] <dglazkov>
hey pnhChris, we're talking hAtom here.
- [13:40:17] <dglazkov>
come look: http://paste.css-standards.org/1288
- [13:40:20] <dglazkov>
valid?
- [13:40:38] <pnhChris>
not without coffee its not :P
- [13:40:42] * pnhChris looks
- [13:42:36] <pnhChris>
was there a reason you were thinking it wasn't?
- [13:43:06] * dglazkov invokes pnhChris automagical hAtom validator
- [13:43:31] <pnhChris>
well... theres hatom2atom -> feedvalidator
- [13:43:39] <dglazkov>
just wanted a fresh set of eyes to look at it
- [13:44:00] <pnhChris>
i think the dates are odd..
- [13:44:17] <pnhChris>
might need published or updated
- [13:44:34] <pnhChris>
i don't think either is assumed in parsing
- [13:44:46] <pnhChris>
and you need to have one or the other
- [13:45:11] <pnhChris>
(inside each entry)
- [13:46:03] <dglazkov>
doh! I forgot to add "updated"
- [13:46:45] * pnhChris looks at the wiki and wonders about entry-content
- [13:48:39] <pnhChris>
i don't think content is required... though its listed as such in the 0.1 schema... just look at the description later is a "should" and assumed to be empty if not there...
- [13:49:06] <pnhChris>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
- [13:49:31] <pnhChris>
vs. http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Content
- [13:49:39] <pnhChris>
that doesn't read the same to me at all
- [13:50:34] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [13:50:54] * pnhChris pokes tantek
- [13:51:27] <pnhChris>
but yeah dglazkov ... i think fixing the date is all that's really needed
- [13:51:55] <pnhChris>
may want to give the body an id as good authoring technique to future proof things
- [13:52:06] <dglazkov>
right
- [13:52:21] <pnhChris>
or run it through the hatom2atom proxy into the feed validator just to give it another look
- [13:52:49] <dglazkov>
I don't think you need id for the body, though
- [13:52:53] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1292 and http://paste.css-standards.org/1293
- [13:53:02] <dglazkov>
in fact, you probably don't need hfeed in the body, at all
- [13:53:15] <pnhChris>
no, you don't need either
- [13:53:42] <pnhChris>
not with 1 feed on a page
- [13:57:10] <trovster>
The 1292 version (sole entry, one page) works, it seems.
- [13:58:13] <trovster>
Which produces - http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpaste.css-standards.org%2F1292%2Fview&ctype=text%2Fxml
- [13:58:22] <trovster>
But doesn't validate - http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lukearno.com%2Fprojects%2Fhatom2atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fpaste.css-standards.org%252F1292%252Fview%26ctype%3Dtext%252Fxml
- [13:58:43] <trovster>
Actually, I lied, it's a warning.
- [13:58:57] <pnhChris>
yeah
- [13:59:12] <pnhChris>
the same document reference is the feedvalidatory not "getting" hatom
- [13:59:25] * tantek stirs
- [13:59:42] <pnhChris>
it says "hey... you're linking to the feed url, not some other web page"
- [14:01:13] <pnhChris>
the other one needs dates
- [14:01:50] <trovster>
Well, you see, I've craftly added it to the June 2006 list above, but it's not implicit per entry, unfortunately. I think I'll have to leave it.
- [14:03:21] <pnhChris>
yeah... but i don't think the parsing specs are that crafty
- [14:04:54] <trovster>
oh well ;) I'll have to leave that bit.
- [14:05:12] <trovster>
Although I might add preview information per entry, which will have that information
- [14:06:27] <tantek>
lots of good discussion in the past several hours
- [14:06:33] <tantek>
for blog comments
- [14:06:40] <tantek>
darn, drew is gone
- [14:06:43] <tantek>
well anyway
- [14:06:54] <tantek>
for the blog comment form how do you hCard the name problem
- [14:06:56] <pnhChris>
i'll have to check the logs later...
- [14:07:11] <pnhChris>
though it may wait until the weekend
- [14:07:32] <tantek>
I have to point out that perhaps the best answer is to *start* with the URL field rather than the name field
- [14:07:52] <trovster>
How would that fix it?
- [14:07:55] <tantek>
then as soon as the user types in their URL, do the hKit-form trick of going out and grabbing their hCard from the URL
- [14:08:03] <tantek>
and autofilling the rest of the form
- [14:08:05] <trovster>
Maybe what COULD BE done is what tantek just said!�
- [14:08:30] <tantek>
why ask the user to create a new hCard when you can simply go read their current hCard?
- [14:08:46] <tantek>
and as more and more folks have their hCard on their home page / blog home page, this problem solves itself
- [14:08:53] <pnhChris>
because blog tools aren't built to store hcards?
- [14:08:57] * pnhChris shrugs
- [14:09:05] <pnhChris>
but i'll stay out till i read the logs
- [14:09:06] <tantek>
aren't you fixing that for Text Pattern Chris?
- [14:09:13] <tantek>
that's my point
- [14:09:14] <pnhChris>
not really
- [14:09:17] <tantek>
it's changing
- [14:09:28] <tantek>
more and more folks have hCards on their home page
- [14:09:45] <tantek>
and if having one speeds up filling out of blog comment forms, then there is more incentive to have one
- [14:09:48] <tantek>
etc.
- [14:10:05] <pnhChris>
i haven't looked at all at the user registration or commenting info side of things
- [14:10:14] <pnhChris>
just content formatting
- [14:10:18] <pnhChris>
but anyways
- [14:10:19] <tantek>
basically, any place that has a form that wants me to fill out my name etc., should start with a URL input box
- [14:10:29] <trovster>
Yeh, that'd be damn ace. Instead of storing your information on a central service to plug into sites, you store it on your site as a hcard. wicked
- [14:10:30] <tantek>
and then go retrieve that URL and grab the hCard
- [14:10:39] <tantek>
trovster, exactly!!!
- [14:10:51] <tantek>
-> decentralization
- [14:10:52] <trovster>
Super sweet idea!
- [14:12:06] <dglazkov>
you know, this concept didn't really resonate with me until net2 conference
- [14:13:16] <pnhChris>
tantek: any comment/instant resolution on the hatom content schema issue i mentioned above? if not i'll just issue page it
- [14:13:22] * pnhChris runs off for a few minutes
- [14:13:34] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:14:13] <dglazkov>
tantek: what do you think about this: https://estrada.seework.com/projects/102814/todos/list/958377
- [14:14:17] <dglazkov>
doh!
- [14:14:19] <dglazkov>
sorry
- [14:14:28] <dglazkov>
http://web.uwaterloo.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
- [14:15:50] <dglazkov>
I've struggled with this concept. In fact, the "why not follow microformats process" is the question that I added to the wiki
- [14:16:31] <dglazkov>
I've spoken w/Jesse (and Drew did, too, separately), who started the wiki
- [14:18:02] <dglazkov>
and I kind of see the point. He wants to use this as a purgatory of sorts, to let the idea exchange get started, and then formulate all that into concrete problems... which then are presented to uf-discuss
- [14:18:05] <dglazkov>
but...
- [14:18:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [14:18:56] <dglazkov>
I think the questions like "is there a need for edu specific microformats" are a form of navel-gazing
- [14:19:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:20:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [14:20:32] <tantek>
oops ibook fell asleep
- [14:20:58] <dglazkov>
I can't blame it
- [14:21:05] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-214-138-239.perm.iinet.net.au) has joined #microformats
- [14:21:20] <tantek>
dglazkov, a better question is
- [14:21:41] <tantek>
why not first make use of existing microformats *as they are* and through that real world process, discover what is truly necessary
- [14:21:48] <tantek>
rather than just *talking* about what is necessary
- [14:22:03] <tantek>
in fact, I've been thinking about making this a requirement for Year 2 of microformats.org
- [14:22:06] <tantek>
that is
- [14:22:27] <tantek>
before you even *propose* a *problem* for a new microformat, you must first use as many existing microformats as possible on your site
- [14:22:38] <tantek>
what do people think of that requirement?
- [14:22:47] <tantek>
the point of it is to steer people to think *practically*
- [14:22:48] <dglazkov>
define your site :)
- [14:22:59] <tantek>
whatever URL you call you :)
- [14:23:08] <tantek>
and whatever site you would want any new microformats for
- [14:23:19] <dglazkov>
my site don't have any microformats on it, but I build sites for living, and all of them have plenties
- [14:23:22] <tantek>
the point is
- [14:23:29] <tantek>
if you can't be bothered to add hCard to your site
- [14:23:45] <tantek>
then why should the microformats community be bothered to help you come up with a new microformat?
- [14:24:14] <tantek>
my hypothesis (and experience) is that 95% of requests for new microformats can be 80+% satisifed with existing microformats
- [14:24:37] <tantek>
and the *only* way to determine what the remaining 20% is (if there even is that much) is to actually first try *publishing* with existing microformats
- [14:24:41] <dglazkov>
I believe that too
- [14:24:56] <tantek>
this is something that is unintuitive to people when they think about developing data formats
- [14:25:00] <tantek>
that is the challenge
- [14:25:08] <tantek>
and the innovation of the microformats process
- [14:25:11] <dglazkov>
that's a blog post to me
- [14:25:18] <dglazkov>
a tantek.com blog post
- [14:25:55] <dglazkov>
I am also going to add this:
- [14:26:17] <dglazkov>
there are plenty of examples of existing formats that were developed by straining logic into unhealthy requirements
- [14:26:40] <dglazkov>
and there is no way microformats will be adopting these formats like hCard/vCard
- [14:27:08] <dglazkov>
I am currently studying common data set: http://www.commondataset.org/
- [14:27:18] <dglazkov>
and it's a prime example
- [14:27:54] <dglazkov>
this goes in hand with "start using before trying to invent new or adapt existing"
- [14:28:16] <tantek>
yeah, it is amazing how often that mistake is repeated
- [14:28:28] <tantek>
ah a blog post
- [14:28:36] <tantek>
ok, that's a good idea
- [14:28:44] <tantek>
I'll try to think about it and write one up
- [14:29:32] <dglazkov>
I actually believe that "reality before formality" is something that's not logical to software engineers. and writing this up well will go a long way
- [14:29:54] <dglazkov>
I'll try to post, too
- [14:32:05] <tantek>
dglazkov: "reality before formality" is an *awesome* soundbite
- [14:32:43] <dglazkov>
heh
- [14:33:33] <pnhChris>
i'm with you on the use what you got first... but i just don't think enough site redesigns are iterative enough to make it work... its the process people use that's just as at fault as anything else... gather up all kinds of information, make lots of decisions before doing anything, redo the site / templates, revisit in a year or two
- [14:33:36] <tantek>
only one reference to that phrase on the web according to Google, and that one ref is in a PDF document
- [14:33:43] <tantek>
so it doesn't really count ;)
- [14:35:49] <tantek>
Chris, "don't think enough site redesigns are iterative enough to make it work" - not sure I understand what you mean by that
- [14:37:56] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [14:37:56] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [14:38:53] <tantek>
iteration is the *key* to microformats development
- [14:38:59] <pnhChris>
once a site is redesigned and up without bugs its "done", not something you'd look to iterate over
- [14:39:01] <pnhChris>
sure
- [14:39:13] <tantek>
if you can't iterate your website, then it's probably not worth developing a new microformat for you
- [14:39:22] <pnhChris>
well.. there's the rub
- [14:39:29] <tantek>
either you deal with live sites or dead ones
- [14:39:59] <tantek>
so if you're only doing a one-off, it's best to *only* use existing well understood microformats
- [14:40:14] <tantek>
so that what you put in place will work/last for a while
- [14:40:47] <tantek>
it makes no sense at all to use a draft proposal in a one-off site, because it is likely the draft proposal will quickly change, making your original use of it nearly useless
- [14:41:00] <pnhChris>
but wehn people are sitting there locked in a room somewhere evaulating the "best" way to do it... that's when they hit the point of spending all the time trying to come up with a format for themselves
- [14:41:10] <pnhChris>
not saying that's a good thing at all
- [14:41:24] <pnhChris>
just see a clash between what happens and your suggestion
- [14:41:29] <tantek>
ah, well in that case, actually, they should just use semantic class names
- [14:41:35] <tantek>
and not worry about making it a "format"
- [14:41:52] <tantek>
the only reason to create a format is if you are trying to interoperate with other sites/applications
- [14:42:02] <tantek>
and in most of those cases, they're not trying to do that
- [14:42:13] <tantek>
they're just trying to be as properly semantic as possible
- [14:42:19] * pnhChris nods
- [14:42:26] <tantek>
which is totally fine, it's just that there is no need to formalize what they're coming up with
- [14:42:32] <dglazkov>
actually, I have a word for that :)
- [14:42:34] <tantek>
into a microformat
- [14:42:47] <dglazkov>
markup system
- [14:43:25] <tantek>
it's really just "information architecture" frankly
- [14:43:31] <tantek>
you come up with the IA for the site
- [14:43:33] <tantek>
for the pages
- [14:43:37] <dglazkov>
yep.
- [14:43:39] <tantek>
for the stuff in the pages
- [14:43:49] <tantek>
with names for the pages and the parts of pages
- [14:44:01] <tantek>
and just use those names in the class attributes of the elements respectively
- [14:44:08] <tantek>
(or id as the case may be)
- [14:44:10] <dglazkov>
yep.
- [14:44:18] <tantek>
and then write your CSS rules to select them
- [14:44:26] <pnhChris>
anyway.. i've got to jump into work in a few... hatom content:required? thoughts tantek?
- [14:44:32] <dglazkov>
or JS to attach behaviors
- [14:44:34] <tantek>
no need to "standardize" your IA for other folks to try to do something with
- [14:44:43] <tantek>
entry-content?
- [14:44:48] <pnhChris>
aye
- [14:45:06] <pnhChris>
compare the scehma text and the field fescription in the 0.1 spec
- [14:45:23] <pnhChris>
i /think/ the schema is off
- [14:45:29] <tantek>
probably
- [14:45:37] <tantek>
take the prose description over the schema/grammar
- [14:45:38] <pnhChris>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
- [14:45:46] <tantek>
that's a general rule for interpreting specs
- [14:45:47] <pnhChris>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Content
- [14:46:40] <tantek>
yep, definitely the prose
- [14:46:46] <tantek>
ok, this is an easy fix
- [14:47:57] <tantek>
pnhChris, note this statement in the schema: "Some required elements have defaults if missing, see below."
- [14:48:12] <tantek>
I don't particularly like that way of writing
- [14:48:18] <tantek>
either it is required, or it isn't
- [14:48:26] <tantek>
something with automagic defaults is not really required
- [14:49:39] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=7068 * Tantek * (+24) Schema - tweaked entry-content required/optional to be more logically consistent with prose field description
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- [14:51:07] * pnhChris nods and goes off to workin'
- [14:51:09] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
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- [14:51:28] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
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- [15:00:25] <tantek>
hey drew welcome back
- [15:00:36] <drewinthehead>
hey tantek
- [15:01:49] <tantek>
drew, start reading the log here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-06-30#T140654
- [15:02:01] <drewinthehead>
already doing so ;)
- [15:02:03] <tantek>
I think I have some answers/suggestions to what you were discussion several hours ago
- [15:02:06] <tantek>
:)
- [15:08:03] <drewinthehead>
ok, I'm caught up
- [15:09:00] <drewinthehead>
you're right, tantek, we should be using existing hcards before creating new ones - especially where creating new cards is either tricky or painful
- [15:09:19] <tantek>
right. increases fidelity. reduces user typing.
- [15:11:22] <drewinthehead>
sorting hcard data is another thing i need to tackle. with so many elements being repeatable, it's becomes quite a messy structure once normalised
- [15:11:43] <tantek>
indeed
- [15:11:47] <drewinthehead>
my temptation is to store as xml, or a serialised object
- [15:11:49] <tantek>
some details are being figured out and written down
- [15:12:35] <tantek>
e.g. see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties
- [15:13:10] <drewinthehead>
is your search tool normalising the data, or is that top secret?
- [15:13:35] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [15:13:48] <tantek>
what do you mean by normalizing?
- [15:14:01] <tantek>
I'll be as helpful as I can with all this stuff
- [15:14:16] <tantek>
the more we figure this all out as a community, the better for everyone
- [15:17:03] <drewinthehead>
normalised in the RDBMS sense
- [15:17:33] <drewinthehead>
splitting every different type of data out into its own table
- [15:17:53] <tantek>
relational, got it
- [15:18:04] <tantek>
it's not clear that is really possible with web-wide distributed data
- [15:18:11] <tantek>
that's the real challenge
- [15:18:21] <tantek>
the web *is* the RDBMS for this data
- [15:18:36] <tantek>
everything else is just a "cache" or "approximation" of that data
- [15:19:15] <drewinthehead>
ok, so saying you want to cache that in your own personal RDBMS ...
- [15:20:26] <drewinthehead>
it perfectly achievable, but it'd be, what, 20, 30 tables?
- [15:20:29] <tantek>
the key here is that in a *cache*, you can't depend on *relations* between fields
- [15:21:03] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [15:21:20] <tantek>
I'm not even sure that RDBMS's make good caches
- [15:21:29] <tantek>
I'm not saying I have all this figured out
- [15:21:54] <tantek>
part of the reason we built the Microformats Search technology preview was to *start* figuring some of this out with practical experience
- [15:22:18] <drewinthehead>
i agree that an RDBMS isn't necessarily a good way to go, hence my initial ponderings
- [15:22:28] <dglazkov>
my experience is that RDBMS sucks at managing perfectly normalized data
- [15:22:37] <dglazkov>
doh!
- [15:22:42] <dglazkov>
the opposite!
- [15:23:19] <dglazkov>
but Web data is almost never perfectly normalized -- permutations of relationship possibilities will kill ya
- [15:23:52] <dglazkov>
and the funny thing is
- [15:24:03] <dglazkov>
while normalizing is a big deal for RDBMS
- [15:24:04] <tantek>
yes
- [15:24:34] <dglazkov>
in a lot of cases (reality), developers don't utilize that normalization to the extent it's advertised
- [15:24:50] <tantek>
that too
- [15:25:09] <dglazkov>
look at ruby
- [15:25:15] <drewinthehead>
i think perhaps the solution i'm looking for is to extract out and store relationally any information i need to reuse, and then stash the entire hcard as a string of xml for use later
- [15:25:41] <tantek>
or just store the entire hCard *as is* as a string of (X)HTML for use later
- [15:25:48] <dglazkov>
right. Stop thinking of it as normalizing, and start thinkiing of it as tagging
- [15:25:54] <tantek>
I mean, heck, parsing that is not any more difficult/slow than some made up XML format
- [15:26:22] <tantek>
plus that means one less format to document/test :D
- [15:26:24] <drewinthehead>
that's what I meant... the hCard *is* xml by the time it's extracted from its context
- [15:26:38] <tantek>
right, with the class names etc.
- [15:27:01] <tantek>
the problem is that a lot of conservative/traditional XML-heads reject that and require that element names be used for things like FN, N etc.
- [15:27:33] <drewinthehead>
XML-heads can keep it ;)
- [15:27:47] <trovster>
<h1><address class="author vcard"><a href="/" title="Back to the homepage of creation" rel="home me" class="org fn url" accesskey="1">Creation</a></address></h1> -- why is this invalid!?
- [15:28:24] <pnhWorkin>
because address stinks?
- [15:28:39] <trovster>
Well, yeh, but blame the hAtom for requiring it
- [15:28:45] <trovster>
I don't want it there.
- [15:28:57] <tantek>
hAtom doesn't require it does it?
- [15:29:00] <trovster>
h1, is block, address is inline, so it should be fine.
- [15:29:00] <tantek>
it shouldn't
- [15:29:03] <tantek>
I need to fix that
- [15:29:09] <tantek>
to be consistent with the way "reviewer" works in hReview
- [15:29:15] <tantek>
which we have had much more experience with
- [15:29:19] <pnhWorkin>
if its the case i think it does
- [15:29:21] <tantek>
and works well for folks
- [15:29:23] <trovster>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author -- find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard
- [15:29:31] <pnhWorkin>
nearest parent... yeah
- [15:29:37] <pnhWorkin>
in^
- [15:29:44] <tantek>
nearest in parent - I hate that expression
- [15:29:56] <tantek>
I think it is terribly unintuitive, but maybe that is just me.
- [15:30:05] <trovster>
Sorry, what am I missing?
- [15:30:26] <pnhWorkin>
nothing trovster, unless i'm missing it too
- [15:30:37] <pnhWorkin>
but i think we've been over this before....
- [15:30:50] <trovster>
I mean about the "nearest in parent"
- [15:31:38] <trovster>
And the 'invalid' HTML :@
- [15:32:04] <tantek>
we need to just make that require "author"
- [15:32:10] <tantek>
and make the ADDRESS a SHOULD, not a MUST
- [15:32:26] <tantek>
use of <ADDRESS> that is
- [15:32:43] <trovster>
So, I can move it to the HTML I had, with <div id="braning" class="author vcard"> ?
- [15:32:54] <tantek>
IMHO yes
- [15:33:16] <dglazkov>
that would make things easier
- [15:33:55] <trovster>
Ah, k. We were debating this earlier!
- [15:35:44] <pnhWorkin>
is that a change of heart tantek, or was it other who were adamant about it being address in this case
- [15:35:57] <pnhWorkin>
cause i know the issue has come up before.. a number of times...
- [15:36:10] <pnhWorkin>
specificially with my own attempts at hatom usage
- [15:36:35] <pnhWorkin>
where the pattern required it to be address
- [15:37:14] <pnhWorkin>
and i wanted to use, say, p class="author vcard".. because the data wasn't /all/ address stuff (but also copywright and other content)
- [15:37:42] <trovster>
pnhWorkin: Yeh, I didn't want to use vcard on an inline element, the reason I had it on the container, is that I could add other information later.
- [15:37:52] <trovster>
I've removed it, the hatom2atom script will need to be updated, I htink
- [15:38:44] <pnhWorkin>
was it an implementor specific requirement (to make searching for the element outside of the root easier?
- [15:38:46] <tantek>
pnhChris, it is not a change of heart
- [15:38:56] <tantek>
I just haven't spoken up much in those earlier discussions
- [15:39:08] <tantek>
was holding back a bit and seeing what other folks came up with
- [15:39:44] <tantek>
I think it was being too strict about re-using the semantics of <address>
- [15:40:39] * MarkDilley (n=Mark@c-68-40-13-127.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:40:40] <drewinthehead>
<address> is fine in simple cases, but it would seem SHOULD is more appropriate than MUST
- [15:41:17] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:41:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [15:41:17] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [15:41:24] <tantek>
drew, agreed
- [15:41:34] <pnhWorkin>
i mean.. i do kindof understand the desire not to have to search the document for class of hcard+author all the time
- [15:41:36] <tantek>
BTW, take a look at the definition of "reviewer" in hReview: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Field_details
- [15:41:40] <tantek>
in comparison
- [15:42:00] <pnhWorkin>
but the flip side doesn't seem to be practical from my POV
- [15:42:14] <tantek>
right
- [15:42:43] * pnhWorkin reads hreview
- [15:43:15] <pnhWorkin>
that reads on first pass like it also requires address
- [15:43:22] <pnhWorkin>
just not the vcard part
- [15:43:38] <pnhWorkin>
for reviewer
- [15:44:02] <drewinthehead>
i disagree ... it's saying if no specific reviewer is given, look at the context of the review. if the page has an address, use that
- [15:44:20] <drewinthehead>
or if it's hAtom, use the author from the relevant entry
- [15:44:23] <pnhWorkin>
reviewer inside > reviewr outside > address outside
- [15:45:13] <drewinthehead>
that's an example of where to look.
- [15:45:16] <pnhWorkin>
but author vcard is not a substite for address in that case
- [15:45:42] <pnhWorkin>
unless i'm reading it too explicitly
- [15:45:48] <pnhWorkin>
on first read
- [15:46:14] <tantek>
but an "author reviewer vcard" is
- [15:46:18] <drewinthehead>
the vcard inside the review is perfect, and the best-case
- [15:47:26] <drewinthehead>
are you saying that when it comes to detecting ownership of the document, ADDRESS is taken in preference to a nearby hCard?
- [15:48:16] <tantek>
yes
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- [15:48:33] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-214-138-239.perm.iinet.net.au) has left #microformats
- [15:48:34] <drewinthehead>
that's correct though, isn't it.
- [15:48:43] <drewinthehead>
a nearby hCard could be anything
- [15:49:14] <drewinthehead>
i could end up attributing a movie review to my dentist.
- [15:49:32] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:49:38] <drewinthehead>
and my dentist *hates* the movies.
- [15:49:46] <pnhWorkin>
shouldn't there be a bottom line for all microformats looking for author information?
- [15:49:49] <tantek>
right, a "nearby hCard" is far too unreliable to be workable. you would get lots of unintended/confusing results
- [15:50:03] <tantek>
pnhChris, that's essentially what we're using hReview to "figure out"
- [15:50:23] <tantek>
it is good to figure it such things out in the context of a specific requirement rather than "all microformats in general"
- [15:50:36] <tantek>
and then we see if the specific solution we found works for all
- [15:50:40] <tantek>
drew: LOL
- [15:51:08] <pnhWorkin>
and if its to be expanded to other formats I don't see "author reviewer vcard" to be the worst case... there should be some other equivalent to address.. which I would think would be simply class="author vcard"
- [15:51:32] <tantek>
so you're saying, a document level generic authorship indicator?
- [15:51:43] <tantek>
perhaps
- [15:51:47] <tantek>
something to think about
- [15:51:52] <drewinthehead>
hmm ... we could call it ADDRESS
- [15:51:59] <drewinthehead>
;)
- [15:52:24] <pnhWorkin>
i read the hreview reviewer text, as it stands now as the following .. "look for a item specific reviewer, if not found find a page specific reviewer, if not found find a page author"
- [15:52:48] <pnhWorkin>
but the definition of page author as only ADDRESS doesn't work for me
- [15:52:54] <tantek>
yes, that is a good interpretation
- [15:52:55] <pnhWorkin>
... same issue with hatom
- [15:53:02] <tantek>
different issue with hAtom
- [15:53:05] <drewinthehead>
the page author's vcard should include an ADDRESS
- [15:53:18] <tantek>
we don't define how HTML defines who is the author of the page
- [15:53:27] <tantek>
HTML defines who is the author/contact for the page
- [15:53:31] <tantek>
as <address>
- [15:53:41] <tantek>
similarly the point about Atom feed and author
- [15:53:57] <drewinthehead>
right .. so it makes sense to use that as part of the author's hCard
- [15:54:09] <tantek>
microformats don't redefine what the containing envelope format defines
- [15:55:23] * drewinthehead nods.
- [15:56:10] <pnhWorkin>
so where does that leave <p class="author vcard">
- [15:56:26] <pnhWorkin>
nowhere in the hreview equation, correct?
- [15:56:26] <tantek>
it doesn't mean anything outside of a specific microformat that defines "author"
- [15:56:31] <tantek>
right
- [15:56:49] <pnhWorkin>
what about the hatom equation?
- [15:56:51] <tantek>
however, in hAtom, we should define "author" just as we define "reviewer" in hReview
- [15:57:05] <tantek>
there is no reason for those to be different
- [15:57:14] <tantek>
and hReview has much more experience
- [15:57:26] <tantek>
(that's why it is at v0.3 :) )
- [15:57:47] <tantek>
hAtom should reuse the definition of "reviewer" from hReview
- [15:57:56] <tantek>
rather than trying to invent its own mechanism for "authorship"
- [15:58:07] <tantek>
using the term "author" is fine, since that is a reuse of vocabulary from Atom
- [15:58:21] <tantek>
but the algorithm/prose should mirror hReview's reviewer IMHO
- [15:58:25] <tantek>
what do others think?
- [16:00:07] <pnhWorkin>
i think (a) the clash with meaning between page author and page wide hatom author may be confusing where page wide reviewer isn't.. and (b) i think i'll forever be longing for a mf defined equivalent of <ADDRESS class="author vcard">
- [16:00:41] <tantek>
pnhChris, that's not out of the question
- [16:00:42] <pnhWorkin>
.. or if not equivalent... one "worse case" step lower on the totem pole
- [16:01:04] <tantek>
there is a reasonable case to be made for extracting "author" out of hAtom and making it into its own elemental microformat
- [16:01:09] <tantek>
which can be reused as a building block
- [16:01:19] <tantek>
similar to how we extracted "geo" and "adr" from hCard
- [16:01:40] <pnhWorkin>
tantek: that's EXACTLY what i thought people were trying to define with the nearest in parent usage
- [16:01:55] <pnhWorkin>
but anyway.. i really have a pile of crap to do that i should be doing
- [16:02:02] <tantek>
the problem is that I'm not convinced nearest in parent actually works in enough cases
- [16:02:30] <tantek>
the key is going to be finding a second microformat that needs generic "author"ship like that and seeing if the same construct works for it
- [16:02:40] <tantek>
perhaps there is hope with media-info
- [16:02:55] <tantek>
the other thing I DONT want to do is to reinvent DC
- [16:03:04] <drewinthehead>
hReview could use author
- [16:03:06] <pnhWorkin>
there isn't already 2 in hatom + hreview?
- [16:03:06] <tantek>
so we have to be careful about that
- [16:03:42] <tantek>
we chose "reviewer" for hReview because we could pick a more specific semantic that made sense in that context 100% of the time
- [16:03:48] <pnhWorkin>
both currently have some definition for usage of ADDRESS
- [16:03:52] <pnhWorkin>
sure
- [16:04:00] <pnhWorkin>
but it still has rules for falling back to address
- [16:04:09] <pnhWorkin>
if the more specific case isn't there
- [16:04:15] <tantek>
but hReview use of <address> is only within the context of using what HTML already defines
- [16:05:02] <pnhWorkin>
but that nitpicking doesn't make sense to authors (read: me)
- [16:05:24] <drewinthehead>
and that's where I think hAtom is potentially misusing <address>
- [16:05:47] <pnhWorkin>
i /want/ them to both wind up falling back on the same thing
- [16:06:00] <pnhWorkin>
specifically for the case of being able to sensibly author a page with both
- [16:06:27] <pnhWorkin>
and in the case of a blog... where i may not know i'm using hreview until months after i've built the templates
- [16:06:35] * cgriego_ is now known as cgriego
- [16:06:44] <pnhWorkin>
and i'm already using the "wosrt case" for hatom
- [16:06:52] <pnhWorkin>
i need it to be the same for hreview
- [16:07:45] <tantek>
right, that makes sense
- [16:07:50] <tantek>
the answer there is to fix hAtom
- [16:07:57] <pnhWorkin>
because otherwise this is invalid: http://placenamehere.com/article/211/TechnoratisNewToys
- [16:08:02] <pnhWorkin>
which it is i guess
- [16:08:17] <tantek>
so step one, let's make <address> a SHOULD, not a MUST in hAtom
- [16:08:21] <pnhWorkin>
but ... i knew it was already i guess
- [16:08:37] * pnhWorkin recalls he ignored hatoms author with that one
- [16:08:47] <tantek>
step two, let's make the rules for finding an hAtom "author" be what is already defined by hReivew for finding the "reviewer"
- [16:08:51] <pnhWorkin>
left it for the redesign :P
- [16:09:10] <pnhWorkin>
tantek: that still doesn't work for me
- [16:09:16] <tantek>
why?
- [16:09:18] <pnhWorkin>
because if i do step 2 for hatom
- [16:09:35] <pnhWorkin>
and then decide to use hareview, media info, or some other content inside of a blog post
- [16:09:41] <pnhWorkin>
i'll have to edit tempaltes
- [16:09:43] <pnhWorkin>
again
- [16:09:47] <pnhWorkin>
for each format
- [16:09:49] <tantek>
why?
- [16:09:52] <tantek>
not necessarily
- [16:10:06] <tantek>
what makes you think you'll have to edit the templates?
- [16:10:23] <tantek>
if all those other microformats fall back on "authorship" the same way, then what is the problem?
- [16:10:25] <pnhWorkin>
p class="author vcard hatom-author"
- [16:10:40] <pnhWorkin>
p class="author vcard reviewer"
- [16:10:51] <tantek>
hence my point about extracting "author" as an elemental microformat
- [16:11:06] <tantek>
don't assume problems that haven't happened yet
- [16:11:35] <pnhWorkin>
tantek: step two, let's make the rules for finding an hAtom "author" be what is already defined by hReivew for finding the "reviewer"
- [16:11:39] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
- [16:11:59] <pnhWorkin>
i read that as extracting the middle step of "author vcard reviewer"
- [16:12:14] <pnhWorkin>
which i don't see as working
- [16:12:56] <pnhWorkin>
i need an LCD that doesn't have to know about individual formats.. and can be used in place of address if need be
- [16:13:14] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [16:13:24] <tantek>
we'll only figure out the right LCD by doing more than one format that reuses the same construct
- [16:13:31] <tantek>
you can't figure out the LCD a priori
- [16:13:37] <tantek>
others have tried and failed
- [16:14:02] <pnhWorkin>
i don't see why a blog with hatom and the posts in that blog with hreview isn't that case
- [16:14:16] <pnhWorkin>
its exactly what i'm doing right now
- [16:14:20] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [16:14:35] <tantek>
yes, that is a good test case
- [16:14:42] <tantek>
but not for LCD
- [16:14:48] <pnhWorkin>
and though my latest templates on chunkysoup use ADDRESS, the older tempaltes on PNH are bad in that area
- [16:15:41] <pnhWorkin>
(they're not atom anyway.. just bad hreview)
- [16:15:48] <tantek>
the thing is that hReview defines the reviewer to fallback to whatever the author is outside the hReview
- [16:16:04] <tantek>
thus an hReview inside an hAtom entry will end up using the hAtom "author" as the reviewer
- [16:16:12] <tantek>
make sense?
- [16:16:39] <pnhWorkin>
no... because that gets us back to the every format needing to know about every format case
- [16:17:13] <tantek>
from who's perspective?
- [16:17:15] <pnhWorkin>
if there's an hfeed-level author, you'll need to have some logic to use that isntead of a page level author when parsing the hreview
- [16:17:19] <tantek>
certainly not the eauthor
- [16:17:40] <tantek>
I think this is a case where we make it easier for the publisher
- [16:17:43] <pnhWorkin>
no, this time on the parser side
- [16:18:24] <tantek>
if we have any other such container/envelope microformats, odds are they will end up reusing "author" because that's what will naturally come out of the microformats process
- [16:18:35] <tantek>
so I think in practice this is a non-problem
- [16:18:47] <tantek>
that's why I said don't worry about a problem that hasn't happened yet
- [16:19:02] <tantek>
because I believe in practice (and evolution) it won't be a problem
- [16:19:08] <pnhWorkin>
but it has with hreview inside hatom
- [16:19:17] <tantek>
two formats a problem do not make
- [16:19:18] <pnhWorkin>
or i'm not quite sure why it hasn't
- [16:19:24] <tantek>
they're already well defined
- [16:19:29] <tantek>
that's why its not a problem
- [16:20:01] * pnhWorkin looks at trovster's issue and doesn't think its a resolvable case
- [16:20:02] <tantek>
it's only a problem if there are two or more *container/envelope* formats which do weird/different things with authorship
- [16:20:08] <pnhWorkin>
but i must go now
- [16:20:12] <tantek>
in the case you bring up
- [16:20:14] <tantek>
there is only one
- [16:20:16] <tantek>
just hAtom
- [16:20:27] <tantek>
hence my point, not a problem yet
- [16:20:29] <trovster>
pnhWorkin: Which issue?
- [16:20:41] <pnhWorkin>
not wanting to be using address
- [16:21:18] <trovster>
I'm keeping my <h1> and I can't put address in there...
- [16:21:36] <tantek>
trovster, I'd say use <h1 class="author">
- [16:21:49] <tantek>
and let's fix hAtom to make it a SHOULD not a MUST to use <address> and be done with it
- [16:21:49] <trovster>
I'm using it on that container
- [16:22:23] <tantek>
you've got a case where <address> doesn't work for you
- [16:22:24] <trovster>
That'd be grand
- [16:22:29] <pnhWorkin>
tantek: rewrite hatom how you think it should read and then we can revist... see if there's still a case where a resolution of hatom authorship doesn't automatically allow for hreview authorship resolution
- [16:22:53] <tantek>
that's a reasonable constraint
- [16:23:23] <pnhWorkin>
i think that is in that "middle" case
- [16:23:25] <pnhWorkin>
but we can see
- [16:23:53] <mfbot>
[[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=7069 * DeanEro * (+173) Music - added Vorbis comment recommendation as an example
- [16:27:35] <tantek>
speaking of media-info ;)
- [16:28:09] <mfbot>
[[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=7070 * DeanEro * (+173) Music - added Apple's iTunes DTD extending RSS 2 for podcasting.
- [16:35:51] <pnhWorkin>
haha! i really should get up to make tuna salad for lunch more often
- [16:35:55] * drewinthehead is not convinced that an hAtom entry can be presumed to be a 'major part' of a document
- [16:36:01] <pnhWorkin>
i'll have a great illustration in just one second
- [16:36:21] <pnhWorkin>
and in the process make my hreview on PNH better
- [16:37:50] <pnhWorkin>
its class="vcard author reviewer" correct?
- [16:38:03] <pnhWorkin>
for a good reviewer outside of the review?
- [16:40:05] <pnhWorkin>
... that being the case (i can tweak to adjust, but it doesn't make any difference to my point)
- [16:40:12] <pnhWorkin>
http://placenamehere.com/article/211/TechnoratisNewToys
- [16:40:41] <pnhWorkin>
2 hreviews with reviewer defined as p class="vcard author reviewer" in the footer
- [16:40:46] <pnhWorkin>
no hatom anyhting at the moment
- [16:41:47] <pnhWorkin>
... but how to i add any other microformat (hatom for example) somewhere else on the page (link list in sidebar for example) to use that same element for the author information?
- [16:42:13] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-189-204.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:42:32] <pnhWorkin>
because i used that "middle" definition of a "page level format-specific author definition" i can't
- [16:43:49] <pnhWorkin>
same case would exist for that "page level hatom-specific author" if you rewrote that spec
- [16:45:22] * bear is now known as bear_world_cup
- [16:45:26] <pnhWorkin>
so the quetion: what are my alternatives to expanding the current PNH working case if I added other formats? seems to me again to be move to address or add format specific classes for every format i incude
- [16:55:45] <drewinthehead>
pnhWorkin - i've not 100% got my head around this, hence my lack of response ;)
- [16:56:58] <pnhWorkin>
oh thats ok.. its more a use case to answer with spec iterations then it was something i was looking for an asnwer from anyone now
- [16:58:02] <drewinthehead>
just been grepping my logs (why does that sound gross?) - 952 downloads of hKit in the first 9 days
- [16:59:06] <briansuda>
there is certainly an interest in microformats!
- [16:59:12] <bewest>
definitely
- [16:59:21] <bewest>
last night I was googling "php hcard parser"
- [16:59:27] <bewest>
there were many many results
- [16:59:43] <bewest>
hkit was up there
- [16:59:47] <bewest>
I didn't check it out though
- [16:59:56] <drewinthehead>
boooo! ;)
- [17:00:46] <bewest>
sorry
- [17:00:48] <bewest>
heh
- [17:00:56] <drewinthehead>
any particular reason why not?
- [17:00:57] <bewest>
I'm looking for a php4 parser
- [17:01:01] <drewinthehead>
ah, ok
- [17:01:27] <pnhWorkin>
random comments question... probably brought up.. and i'm not looking for an answer... how do you deal with "save my information"
- [17:01:31] <bewest>
the php4 one by Asaf at labnotes.org is based on an implementation of getElementsBySelector()
- [17:01:34] <pnhWorkin>
for repeat commentors
- [17:02:12] <drewinthehead>
i went for php5 as i thought the xml parsers were better. i was wrong.
- [17:02:36] <pnhWorkin>
simplexml is eenteresting.. and workable
- [17:02:42] <pnhWorkin>
but not great
- [17:03:16] <drewinthehead>
simplexml had me spitting feathers.
- [17:04:07] <drewinthehead>
gotta dash .. back in a couple of hours
- [17:04:13] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
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- [17:21:47] * deanero skims some of that conversation about "author"ship and looks at hatom authors
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- [17:24:28] <deanero>
hmm. twas hoping that would be similar to what i think of as artists for music stuff
- [17:25:21] <deanero>
probably not so much, though
- [17:35:18] <tantek>
its actually pretty much the same concept
- [17:35:22] <tantek>
who authored the stuff
- [17:35:27] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7071 * DeanEro * (+49) Introduction - disambiguate from the direction of media-info-- focus on artist and release descriptions.
- [17:35:40] <tantek>
whether it is text, notes, lyrics, paint, rock, etc.
- [17:37:52] <deanero>
yeah-- i was hoping to avoid having it relate directly to hcard-ish contact info, but maybe i need to better understand hcard
- [17:39:09] * briansud1 (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [17:40:35] <bewest>
hrm... the concept of author is ambiguous in music
- [17:41:26] <deanero>
most of the band/artist info i publish is very general-- artist name, bio, associated releases
- [17:42:33] <bewest>
actually authorship of music is very similar to that of code
- [17:43:08] <bewest>
the creative processes at work are virtually identical
- [17:43:24] <deanero>
there could be associated contact info, but not necessarily
- [17:43:41] <tantek>
deanero - an hCard represents a *person* or *organizations*
- [17:43:48] <tantek>
not just "contact info"
- [17:44:17] <bewest>
but music has an extra twist of who performed it... which might be similar to who compiled the source if you were distributing binaries
- [17:44:20] <deanero>
so if i use it as a general org, it should prolly work?
- [17:44:22] <tantek>
bewest, I think the easiest simplification is to simply allow multiple authors
- [17:44:33] <bewest>
sure
- [17:44:33] <tantek>
and then use "role" to distinguish what each of them did
- [17:44:39] <bewest>
I agree
- [17:44:47] <tantek>
I believe that solves your composer/arranger dilemma
- [17:44:49] <bewest>
I haven't seen any formats that do that though
- [17:44:54] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@adsl-71-131-224-33.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:44:56] <bewest>
but maybe I just missed it
- [17:44:58] <bewest>
it would
- [17:45:13] <tantek>
I don't think the problem is as hard as it may seem
- [17:45:25] <tantek>
bbiab
- [17:46:07] <deanero>
in my db, i have org->artist then associate many types of contacts with the artist
- [17:46:31] <deanero>
booking agents, managers, actual members of the band, etc
- [17:46:32] <tantek>
a person can have multiple adrs, tels etc.
- [17:46:44] <bewest>
but not more than one geo :-)
- [17:46:46] <tantek>
and agents for that matter
- [17:46:53] <tantek>
that's right bewest!
- [17:47:19] <bewest>
seems strange that you can't do a one to one mapping of adr -> geo
- [17:47:57] <bewest>
many to one of entity -> adr but only one to one of entity -> geo
- [17:48:02] <tantek>
they mean different things
- [17:48:08] <bewest>
yeah
- [17:48:27] <bewest>
still seems strange though
- [17:48:32] <deanero>
er, party->org->artist, rather
- [17:48:50] <bewest>
I think most people would think that a geo is an unambiguous resolution of what adr means
- [17:49:03] <tantek>
yeah, the naming is suboptimal
- [17:49:14] <tantek>
geo is more the type of data than the semantic
- [17:49:27] <tantek>
it should have been called something like "location"
- [17:49:32] <tantek>
of type geo
- [17:49:45] <tantek>
but hey, we're reusing what we got from vCard
- [17:49:53] <tantek>
sorry guys, I find this conversation very interesting, but I have to run.
- [17:50:21] <deanero>
heh :)
- [17:50:25] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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- [17:51:32] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [17:51:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [17:52:18] * bear_world_cup is now known as bear
- [17:53:25] <Harry_Slaughter>
is there a page that gives a general idea of who's providing support for microformats (like yahoo, and particularly applications)?
- [17:54:21] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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- [17:55:57] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations ?
- [17:56:12] <Harry_Slaughter>
perfect, tks
- [17:56:36] <Harry_Slaughter>
impressive list
- [17:59:06] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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- [18:06:14] <deanero>
i don't really use much more than artist name, bio/description, and status with artists. then it's just a stub to associate other things (releases, contact info, tour date, etc.) with
- [18:06:58] <deanero>
i think emusic and allmusic are somewhat similar
- [18:07:03] * deanero mutters aloud
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- [18:39:54] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [18:40:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [18:48:25] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7072 * DeanEro * (+589) Artist pages - added and cleaned up examples
- [18:50:03] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:50:03] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [18:56:16] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7073 * DeanEro * (+121) Record Label pages - a few more indies
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- [19:28:43] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [19:29:25] <drewinthehead>
here's trouble
- [19:29:57] <drewinthehead>
how's your hAtom going, trovster?
- [19:29:58] <kingryan>
its a british invasion
- [19:30:28] <trovster>
drewinthehead: Well, that stopped about an hour half ago, when I left work, 7pm on a Friday is late enough!
- [19:30:50] <drewinthehead>
you mean you don't do this for fun? ;)
- [19:31:31] <trovster>
Well, yes, I need to develop my new website, but I haven't really got a good place after work to develop it
- [19:31:42] <trovster>
I'm currently living with my boss during the week ;)
- [19:32:18] <trovster>
Also, I'm going to nick all the code I develop for this package for my site :D And I'm waiting on a design too, should pay someone I think
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- [19:41:16] <jibot>
Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [20:37:05] <mfbot>
[[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=7074 * ChristopheDucamp * (+417) Propriétés Singulières vs. Plurielles -
- [20:42:59] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
- [20:47:11] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7075 * DeanEro * (+661) Release Sites - more explanation and examples of release pages
- [20:47:39] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:47:39] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:48:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [20:48:47] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+2449) [fr: structure translated -> to be reviewed]
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- [21:22:04] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7076 * DeanEro * (+553) Introduction - clearer explanation of artists and releases
- [21:23:20] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7077 * DeanEro * (+4) Introduction - link fix
- [21:26:06] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7078 * DeanEro * (+7) Artist pages - clarification
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- [21:47:59] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7079 * DeanEro * (+40) Introduction - clarified distinction between performing artist and composer
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- [21:52:33] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [22:02:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [22:02:37] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [22:04:09] <drewinthehead>
ok hReview question
- [22:04:38] <drewinthehead>
i have a product detail page with an except of the most recent review, which then links through to a page of reviews.
- [22:04:55] <drewinthehead>
should the except be marked up with hReview?
- [22:05:10] <kingryan>
it can be
- [22:05:18] <kingryan>
just point the hReview's permalink at the full one
- [22:05:35] <drewinthehead>
ok
- [22:06:07] <drewinthehead>
rel="review" would be good to, I guess, to point to a page full of hReviews of the current item
- [22:06:26] <kingryan>
sure
- [22:06:46] <trovster>
rel="review permalink"
- [22:06:51] <kingryan>
makes the most sense if those are reviews of that page or whatever that page represents
- [22:07:45] <drewinthehead>
exactly - the reviews are of the product which is represented by the page
- [22:07:53] <kingryan>
that'll work
- [22:08:40] <drewinthehead>
trovster, that'd be rel="review bookmark"
- [22:09:00] <drewinthehead>
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-bookmark
- [22:09:24] <trovster>
haha, oh yeh; )
- [22:23:23] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
- [22:23:57] * drewinthehead looks up and realises that 11.30 on a Friday night is not the best time to still be marking up hReviews.
- [22:24:31] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
- [22:24:43] <pnhWorkin>
teehee
- [22:24:57] <pnhWorkin>
just one of them days drewinthehead_
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- [22:58:06] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7080 * DeanEro * (+455) Added major label examples
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- [23:25:33] * UncleFu86 (n=UncleFu8@L1df9.l.pppool.de) has joined #microformats
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- [23:37:38] <mfbot>
[[media-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7081 * DeanEro * (+111) Elements that come up often in practice - added ISRC- it's required by most digital distributors of audio and video
- [23:43:51] <tantek>
greetings
- [23:43:56] <tantek>
sigh
- [23:44:03] <tantek>
"required by..." is irrelevant
- [23:44:10] <tantek>
what people actually *do* publish is relevant
- [23:44:36] * tantek just updated Technorati Microformats Search with some fixes/tweaks.
- [23:44:48] <tantek>
performance should be improved for multiword searches like "San Francisco"
- [23:45:05] <tantek>
could folks give http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/ a try and let me know how it works for them?
- [23:46:54] <Remi>
working for me
- [23:47:02] <tantek>
great
- [23:47:18] <Remi>
tried 'Los Angeles' and '"Los Angeles"'
- [23:48:19] * briansuda (n=briansud@ACA89AF7.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:48:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [23:48:20] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [23:54:43] <bewest>
hmm was someone working on media markup with specific considerations for images?
- [23:54:48] <bewest>
I found a great example in the wild
- [23:54:58] <bewest>
http://www.fotonotes.net/
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