IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  8. [00:58:26] <tantek> greetings
  9. [00:58:38] <tantek> what are people's experiences with using object-include
  10. [00:58:43] <tantek> ?
  11. [01:00:18] <tantek> it seems that some browsers have problems with it
  12. [01:00:20] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback
  13. [01:00:23] <tantek> discuss
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  24. [02:16:46] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  35. [02:17:31] <alexandermuse> Tantek: Ryan around these days? If he will vet the markup we can release our hresume plugin... we think it is done.
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  47. [02:23:51] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  80. [03:54:28] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  88. [04:47:54] <bewes1> who was that Israeli guy at barcamp who was working on uf parsers?
  89. [04:47:58] <bewes1> he said he had a php parser
  90. [04:48:56] <bewes1> was his site labnotes?
  91. [04:50:07] <MarkDilley> any insight to the convo at http://www.wikiindex.com/Category_talk:Microformats would be helpful, frankly I am still struggling with the concept
  92. [04:50:20] <bewes1> mmMMmm I think it was since it appears to be based on an implementation of getElementsBySelector
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  98. [05:58:52] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  99. [05:59:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  100. [06:09:26] <tantek> I just found this: http://www.blogskins.com/2006/06/goodbye-categories-hello-tags.php
  101. [06:09:41] <tantek> "BlogSkins is now publishing all ~340,000 user profiles and ~318,000 skin comments as microformats. "
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  113. [07:00:44] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  124. [08:04:03] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  132. [09:05:50] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  141. [10:05:26] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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  143. [10:06:25] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  144. [10:06:45] <trovster> Is it ?def my new phrase for changing the bot?
  145. [10:07:36] <drewinthehead> trovster - instructions at the bottom of http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
  146. [10:07:42] <trovster> Thanks
  147. [10:09:23] <trovster> ?def trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  148. [10:09:24] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk and a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  149. [10:10:11] <trovster> ?forgetme trovster
  150. [10:10:11] <jibot> I have expunged trovster from my mind
  151. [10:10:14] <trovster> ?def trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  152. [10:10:15] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  153. [10:10:19] <trovster> That's better.
  154. [10:21:15] <trovster> http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats the mfCommet is interesting, althought it should probably create a hCard?
  155. [10:30:29] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1280 - is this appropriate use of rel-tag?
  156. [10:31:23] <drewinthehead> what line?
  157. [10:32:22] <drewinthehead> lines 3-6 are ok for rel-teg
  158. [10:32:41] <drewinthehead> but not 12-15, they're using fragments
  159. [10:32:58] <drewinthehead> the tag in the case of 12-15 would be 'my-links'
  160. [10:33:11] <trovster> Right, the second lot are taken with JavaScript...
  161. [10:33:56] <drewinthehead> 'taken with' ?
  162. [10:34:25] <trovster> Well, the source shows part 1, however, that is hijaxed, and converted to the fragment
  163. [10:34:36] <drewinthehead> oh ok
  164. [10:34:58] <drewinthehead> so it's going to depend which state the DOM is in when the µF is parsed
  165. [10:35:22] <trovster> Indeed, I suppose I can remove the rel="" with JavaScript
  166. [10:35:29] <drewinthehead> something like a Greasemonkey script would see part 2, and potentially screw up
  167. [10:35:33] <drewinthehead> yes, that'd be ok
  168. [10:36:12] <drewinthehead> it'd be better just to keep the nice URIs though ;)
  169. [10:36:57] <trovster> The nice URIs still exist, though
  170. [10:37:14] <drewinthehead> so why change to the fragments?
  171. [10:38:14] <trovster> I can pm you the test URL...
  172. [10:39:44] <drewinthehead> s'ok, just idly questioning, as questioning minds do :)
  173. [10:46:23] <drewinthehead> on the subject of using hCard for comments, what we need is for blog tools to be able to perform the n-optimization
  174. [10:47:15] <drewinthehead> but that should actually be pretty easy - I already have n-optimization routines done in PHP. I could probably knock up a TXP plugin in about 5 mins
  175. [10:47:31] <drewinthehead> and I bet someone who knows WP's plugin system could do the same
  176. [10:47:54] <trovster> "n-optimization routines done in PHP" -- what's this mean, exactly?
  177. [10:48:26] <drewinthehead> are you familiar with how the n-optimization stuff goes?
  178. [10:48:50] <trovster> Nope.
  179. [10:49:16] <drewinthehead> N can be implied from FN if FN fits a small number of known formats
  180. [10:50:09] <drewinthehead> so if FN is 'Firstname Lastname' then we can construct GIVEN-NAME and FAMILY-NAME from that
  181. [10:50:49] <drewinthehead> but if FN is, say, 'Thomas Vander Wal' we can't
  182. [10:51:12] <drewinthehead> and N is required. unless it can be directly implied from FN
  183. [10:52:16] <drewinthehead> this is a problem for things like blog comment forms, as you're usually just asking people for the name as one field - which if you then just write out as FN could easily create an invalid hCard
  184. [10:52:45] <drewinthehead> with me?
  185. [10:54:04] <trovster> OK, so a hCard is only valid if N can be implied?
  186. [10:54:40] <drewinthehead> yes, unless N is specified as well, of course. or if it's a card for an org rather than a person.
  187. [10:55:32] <drewinthehead> so this is invalid: <div class="vcard"><span class="fn">Thomas Vander Wal</span></div>
  188. [10:56:07] <trovster> http://multipack.co.uk/members/stuart-maynard-keene/ - yeh, so that would be invalid if it was Stuard Maynard Keene...
  189. [10:56:48] <drewinthehead> right ... the hyphen saves it
  190. [10:56:51] <trovster> <div class="vcard"><span class="fn"><span class="n">Thomas</span> Vander Wal</span></div> would be fine, though?
  191. [10:57:37] <drewinthehead> no, N needs to include its sub classes (i think .. i don't think it can crunch down)
  192. [10:58:14] <drewinthehead> <div class="vcard"><span class="fn n"><span class="given-name">Thomas</span> <span class="family-name">Vander Wal</span></span></div>
  193. [10:59:48] <drewinthehead> i love the multipack site, btw
  194. [11:00:46] <trovster> Cool. I didn't design it, just built it.
  195. [11:01:24] <drewinthehead> so there's about 4/5 different formats the FN can be for us to imply N from it. they're noted here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Implied_.22n.22_Optimization
  196. [11:01:55] <trovster> Yeh, was just looking there, was going to paste something, until I saw 'two words'
  197. [11:03:09] <drewinthehead> what blog software needs is to be able to take the commenter's name, and work out if N can be implied
  198. [11:03:34] <drewinthehead> the problem being - what happens if it can't? I guess at the least you could create no hCard
  199. [11:05:10] <trovster> Yeh, if it can't be made, then just don't add the hCard
  200. [11:06:15] <drewinthehead> or, if you wanted to be clever, you could either put it through a moderation step, or even ask the user
  201. [11:06:38] <drewinthehead> but easier might be to have a field for given-name and one for family-name in the first place
  202. [11:11:15] <trovster> So, if they type in a name, with two spaces in, add the given-name and family name inputs, could even guess what they might be an fill them
  203. [11:11:39] <trovster> Or, select your first name and hit tab, and it fills given-name with that, and family-name with the rest
  204. [11:11:50] <drewinthehead> the problem with guessing is you don't know which way to go
  205. [11:12:38] <drewinthehead> Jesse James Garrett vs Thomas Vander Wal in an n-optimization death match
  206. [11:13:15] <trovster> 'Jesse James' given-name?
  207. [11:13:23] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has left #microformats
  208. [11:17:37] <drewinthehead> that's it, you'd need to ask :)
  209. [11:17:50] <drewinthehead> I think so, but the James may be an additional-name
  210. [12:02:12] <trovster> Could hatom be used on an archives page, which has the month posted, title and permalink?
  211. [12:05:31] <trovster> Wow, author is required on hatom
  212. [12:13:25] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1282 - hatom default?
  213. [12:13:36] <drewinthehead> author is required for the feed isn't it?
  214. [12:14:12] <drewinthehead> the hAtom spec is not intuitive
  215. [12:15:10] <drewinthehead> trovster, that URL should be fine ... it's relative, so the parser should put it in context for the URL of the page, and any BASE or XML:BASE present
  216. [12:16:29] <trovster> author is required for feed, yes. I'm saying my hentry doesn't have an author vcard, but the spec says nearest vcard parent, so it would use the #branding one?
  217. [12:23:04] <drewinthehead> if that's inside the feed, then yes, it should
  218. [12:29:20] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  219. [12:29:21] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  220. [12:30:17] <trovster> What defines <feed><title>this</title> and not <entry><title> ?
  221. [12:30:27] <trovster> It's taking it from the <title> of the HTML page
  222. [12:34:36] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1283/view => http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http://paste.css-standards.org/1283/view&ctype=text/xml
  223. [12:37:04] <drewinthehead> yeah, it seems to be
  224. [12:37:38] <trovster> I've looked over the spec, and there seems no way to be able to set it...
  225. [12:38:14] <drewinthehead> agreed
  226. [12:38:40] <drewinthehead> as the feed is of the page, I guess it's correct that the title is the same
  227. [12:38:53] <trovster> OK.
  228. [12:42:58] <trovster> OK, http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples#Transformation_3 - why are there multiple 'entry-content' ?
  229. [12:48:46] <drewinthehead> in parsing those should get concatenated, I think
  230. [12:49:42] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  231. [12:49:43] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  232. [12:49:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  233. [12:50:13] <drewinthehead> although I'm not sure on that ... it looks like entries are being implied from entry-content
  234. [12:50:28] <dglazkov> hey drewinthehead
  235. [12:50:43] <drewinthehead> hey dglazkov
  236. [12:51:23] <drewinthehead> hAtom is a bloody mystery ... I'm sure someone understands it, but it could do with better documenting
  237. [12:52:13] <dglazkov> it's only 0.1, so yep :)
  238. [12:53:25] <dglazkov> what's the problem?
  239. [12:53:29] <trovster> Oh, glad it's not just me going 'wth'!
  240. [12:53:41] <drewinthehead> what lies between 0.1 and 1.0, dglazkov?
  241. [12:54:07] <trovster> reverse(0.1);
  242. [12:54:09] <dglazkov> lotsa work, but even in 0.1, it think hAtom is workable
  243. [12:54:33] <dglazkov> david janes basically wrote the first draft.
  244. [12:55:01] <dglazkov> I haven't been part of some discussion, but I always listened :)
  245. [12:56:10] <drewinthehead> I agree that it's workable (or appears so), which is what prompted the question
  246. [12:56:36] <drewinthehead> i'm wondering if it's worth the documentation effort at this stage, or whether it's under documented because it's still very much in flux
  247. [12:57:19] <dglazkov> Is the problem in the hatom-issues?
  248. [12:57:46] <dglazkov> er... rephrase. is the problem documented in hatom-issues (http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues)
  249. [12:59:17] <drewinthehead> wow ... that's a fiendish document
  250. [13:00:04] <dglazkov> lotta work :)
  251. [13:00:58] <trovster> dglazkov: You an hatom specialist then? :)
  252. [13:01:05] <dglazkov> doh!
  253. [13:01:15] <dglazkov> I am hatom generalist :)
  254. [13:01:48] <dglazkov> but I can try to help answer the questions
  255. [13:02:03] <trovster> Just pasting some stuff
  256. [13:02:40] <drewinthehead> the question that was just raised was regarding Transformation 3
  257. [13:02:56] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples#Transformation_3
  258. [13:03:19] <drewinthehead> are the entries implied from entry-content?
  259. [13:03:29] <trovster> Well, that's one of them, not my question now...
  260. [13:03:29] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1284
  261. [13:03:55] <drewinthehead> that's my question now then .. i've adopted it :)
  262. [13:04:15] <drewinthehead> my instinct would be to concatenate all the entry-contents
  263. [13:04:15] <trovster> No, you can't have it... well, ok then, seen as you help 'n all that
  264. [13:06:07] <dglazkov> the #aritcles?
  265. [13:06:29] <trovster> Yes.
  266. [13:06:44] <dglazkov> hang on -- this is a cool little tool, btw
  267. [13:07:32] <drewinthehead> brb
  268. [13:07:35] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  269. [13:07:45] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1285 is what I came up with, so far
  270. [13:09:07] <dglazkov> it's good, except need to add author and updated
  271. [13:09:31] <trovster> Well, it says author is implied from the nearest parent vcard... which is in #branding
  272. [13:10:00] <dglazkov> then, it has to be an ADDRESS
  273. [13:10:51] <trovster> argh
  274. [13:11:41] <dglazkov> and you can't use address in this particular markup, 'cause address is inline
  275. [13:12:01] <dglazkov> and you have P, H1 markup inside that div
  276. [13:12:58] <trovster> <h1><address><a> or <h1><a><address> which is more appropriatE?
  277. [13:14:45] <dglazkov> the first one looks good. Hang on
  278. [13:15:07] * dglazkov wants to use paste.css-standards.org :)
  279. [13:15:16] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  280. [13:16:12] <dglazkov> http://paste.css-standards.org/1287
  281. [13:16:39] <dglazkov> hey drew
  282. [13:16:53] <drewinthehead> hey :)
  283. [13:16:54] <trovster> find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author -- <address class="author">
  284. [13:17:10] <trovster> dglazkov: Why do you like the pastebin, btw?
  285. [13:17:23] <dglazkov> it's open and wiki-like
  286. [13:17:36] <dglazkov> and leaves a trail of changes
  287. [13:17:40] <dglazkov> just makes sense
  288. [13:18:01] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1286/view is the best reason ;)
  289. [13:18:05] <dglazkov> drewinthehead, Jesse Rodgers and I had this discussion on UWebD
  290. [13:18:42] <dglazkov> about starting uf in higher ed wiki
  291. [13:19:12] <drewinthehead> yup, i've seen the wiki
  292. [13:19:19] <dglazkov> I was first kind of not liking the idea, but then he made a good point
  293. [13:20:06] <trovster> So, is it <address class="author"> or <address class="vcard"> with author inside/
  294. [13:20:40] <dglazkov> drewinthehead, hang on -- I ran away from trovster discussion :)
  295. [13:21:09] <trovster> Yeh drewinthehead, first you 'adopted' my question, now you've 'adopted' dglazkov from me :(
  296. [13:21:34] <dglazkov> you don't need author class...
  297. [13:21:36] <dglazkov> oh I see
  298. [13:21:40] <dglazkov> you have hfeed in the body
  299. [13:22:31] <dglazkov> ok, then it's <address class="author vcard">
  300. [13:23:15] <trovster> Meh, that means everything inside vcard must be inline...
  301. [13:23:28] <trovster> OK, he updated... can I just add title=""
  302. [13:23:40] <dglazkov> nope.
  303. [13:23:57] <dglazkov> has to be datetime-design-pattern
  304. [13:24:26] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  305. [13:27:07] <dglazkov> http://paste.css-standards.org/1288
  306. [13:27:55] <trovster> Heh, I'd switch to a DL for that information.
  307. [13:28:35] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1290 :) heh
  308. [13:28:43] <dglazkov> sure -- I've done that before. Until I started feeling uneasy about DL in general
  309. [13:29:15] * drewinthehead is being dragged away, but will be back later.
  310. [13:29:22] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  311. [13:30:42] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
  312. [13:32:18] <trovster> be back in 10
  313. [13:39:42] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  314. [13:39:43] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  315. [13:40:05] <dglazkov> hey pnhChris, we're talking hAtom here.
  316. [13:40:17] <dglazkov> come look: http://paste.css-standards.org/1288
  317. [13:40:20] <dglazkov> valid?
  318. [13:40:38] <pnhChris> not without coffee its not :P
  319. [13:40:42] * pnhChris looks
  320. [13:42:36] <pnhChris> was there a reason you were thinking it wasn't?
  321. [13:43:06] * dglazkov invokes pnhChris automagical hAtom validator
  322. [13:43:31] <pnhChris> well... theres hatom2atom -> feedvalidator
  323. [13:43:39] <dglazkov> just wanted a fresh set of eyes to look at it
  324. [13:44:00] <pnhChris> i think the dates are odd..
  325. [13:44:17] <pnhChris> might need published or updated
  326. [13:44:34] <pnhChris> i don't think either is assumed in parsing
  327. [13:44:46] <pnhChris> and you need to have one or the other
  328. [13:45:11] <pnhChris> (inside each entry)
  329. [13:46:03] <dglazkov> doh! I forgot to add "updated"
  330. [13:46:45] * pnhChris looks at the wiki and wonders about entry-content
  331. [13:48:39] <pnhChris> i don't think content is required... though its listed as such in the 0.1 schema... just look at the description later is a "should" and assumed to be empty if not there...
  332. [13:49:06] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
  333. [13:49:31] <pnhChris> vs. http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Content
  334. [13:49:39] <pnhChris> that doesn't read the same to me at all
  335. [13:50:34] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  336. [13:50:54] * pnhChris pokes tantek
  337. [13:51:27] <pnhChris> but yeah dglazkov ... i think fixing the date is all that's really needed
  338. [13:51:55] <pnhChris> may want to give the body an id as good authoring technique to future proof things
  339. [13:52:06] <dglazkov> right
  340. [13:52:21] <pnhChris> or run it through the hatom2atom proxy into the feed validator just to give it another look
  341. [13:52:49] <dglazkov> I don't think you need id for the body, though
  342. [13:52:53] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1292 and http://paste.css-standards.org/1293
  343. [13:53:02] <dglazkov> in fact, you probably don't need hfeed in the body, at all
  344. [13:53:15] <pnhChris> no, you don't need either
  345. [13:53:42] <pnhChris> not with 1 feed on a page
  346. [13:57:10] <trovster> The 1292 version (sole entry, one page) works, it seems.
  347. [13:58:13] <trovster> Which produces - http://www.lukearno.com/projects/hatom2atom/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpaste.css-standards.org%2F1292%2Fview&ctype=text%2Fxml
  348. [13:58:22] <trovster> But doesn't validate - http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lukearno.com%2Fprojects%2Fhatom2atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fpaste.css-standards.org%252F1292%252Fview%26ctype%3Dtext%252Fxml
  349. [13:58:43] <trovster> Actually, I lied, it's a warning.
  350. [13:58:57] <pnhChris> yeah
  351. [13:59:12] <pnhChris> the same document reference is the feedvalidatory not "getting" hatom
  352. [13:59:25] * tantek stirs
  353. [13:59:42] <pnhChris> it says "hey... you're linking to the feed url, not some other web page"
  354. [14:01:13] <pnhChris> the other one needs dates
  355. [14:01:50] <trovster> Well, you see, I've craftly added it to the June 2006 list above, but it's not implicit per entry, unfortunately. I think I'll have to leave it.
  356. [14:03:21] <pnhChris> yeah... but i don't think the parsing specs are that crafty
  357. [14:04:54] <trovster> oh well ;) I'll have to leave that bit.
  358. [14:05:12] <trovster> Although I might add preview information per entry, which will have that information
  359. [14:06:27] <tantek> lots of good discussion in the past several hours
  360. [14:06:33] <tantek> for blog comments
  361. [14:06:40] <tantek> darn, drew is gone
  362. [14:06:43] <tantek> well anyway
  363. [14:06:54] <tantek> for the blog comment form how do you hCard the name problem
  364. [14:06:56] <pnhChris> i'll have to check the logs later...
  365. [14:07:11] <pnhChris> though it may wait until the weekend
  366. [14:07:32] <tantek> I have to point out that perhaps the best answer is to *start* with the URL field rather than the name field
  367. [14:07:52] <trovster> How would that fix it?
  368. [14:07:55] <tantek> then as soon as the user types in their URL, do the hKit-form trick of going out and grabbing their hCard from the URL
  369. [14:08:03] <tantek> and autofilling the rest of the form
  370. [14:08:05] <trovster> Maybe what COULD BE done is what tantek just said!�
  371. [14:08:30] <tantek> why ask the user to create a new hCard when you can simply go read their current hCard?
  372. [14:08:46] <tantek> and as more and more folks have their hCard on their home page / blog home page, this problem solves itself
  373. [14:08:53] <pnhChris> because blog tools aren't built to store hcards?
  374. [14:08:57] * pnhChris shrugs
  375. [14:09:05] <pnhChris> but i'll stay out till i read the logs
  376. [14:09:06] <tantek> aren't you fixing that for Text Pattern Chris?
  377. [14:09:13] <tantek> that's my point
  378. [14:09:14] <pnhChris> not really
  379. [14:09:17] <tantek> it's changing
  380. [14:09:28] <tantek> more and more folks have hCards on their home page
  381. [14:09:45] <tantek> and if having one speeds up filling out of blog comment forms, then there is more incentive to have one
  382. [14:09:48] <tantek> etc.
  383. [14:10:05] <pnhChris> i haven't looked at all at the user registration or commenting info side of things
  384. [14:10:14] <pnhChris> just content formatting
  385. [14:10:18] <pnhChris> but anyways
  386. [14:10:19] <tantek> basically, any place that has a form that wants me to fill out my name etc., should start with a URL input box
  387. [14:10:29] <trovster> Yeh, that'd be damn ace. Instead of storing your information on a central service to plug into sites, you store it on your site as a hcard. wicked
  388. [14:10:30] <tantek> and then go retrieve that URL and grab the hCard
  389. [14:10:39] <tantek> trovster, exactly!!!
  390. [14:10:51] <tantek> -> decentralization
  391. [14:10:52] <trovster> Super sweet idea!
  392. [14:12:06] <dglazkov> you know, this concept didn't really resonate with me until net2 conference
  393. [14:13:16] <pnhChris> tantek: any comment/instant resolution on the hatom content schema issue i mentioned above? if not i'll just issue page it
  394. [14:13:22] * pnhChris runs off for a few minutes
  395. [14:13:34] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  396. [14:14:13] <dglazkov> tantek: what do you think about this: https://estrada.seework.com/projects/102814/todos/list/958377
  397. [14:14:17] <dglazkov> doh!
  398. [14:14:19] <dglazkov> sorry
  399. [14:14:28] <dglazkov> http://web.uwaterloo.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
  400. [14:15:50] <dglazkov> I've struggled with this concept. In fact, the "why not follow microformats process" is the question that I added to the wiki
  401. [14:16:31] <dglazkov> I've spoken w/Jesse (and Drew did, too, separately), who started the wiki
  402. [14:18:02] <dglazkov> and I kind of see the point. He wants to use this as a purgatory of sorts, to let the idea exchange get started, and then formulate all that into concrete problems... which then are presented to uf-discuss
  403. [14:18:05] <dglazkov> but...
  404. [14:18:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  405. [14:18:56] <dglazkov> I think the questions like "is there a need for edu specific microformats" are a form of navel-gazing
  406. [14:19:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  407. [14:20:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  408. [14:20:32] <tantek> oops ibook fell asleep
  409. [14:20:58] <dglazkov> I can't blame it
  410. [14:21:05] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-214-138-239.perm.iinet.net.au) has joined #microformats
  411. [14:21:20] <tantek> dglazkov, a better question is
  412. [14:21:41] <tantek> why not first make use of existing microformats *as they are* and through that real world process, discover what is truly necessary
  413. [14:21:48] <tantek> rather than just *talking* about what is necessary
  414. [14:22:03] <tantek> in fact, I've been thinking about making this a requirement for Year 2 of microformats.org
  415. [14:22:06] <tantek> that is
  416. [14:22:27] <tantek> before you even *propose* a *problem* for a new microformat, you must first use as many existing microformats as possible on your site
  417. [14:22:38] <tantek> what do people think of that requirement?
  418. [14:22:47] <tantek> the point of it is to steer people to think *practically*
  419. [14:22:48] <dglazkov> define your site :)
  420. [14:22:59] <tantek> whatever URL you call you :)
  421. [14:23:08] <tantek> and whatever site you would want any new microformats for
  422. [14:23:19] <dglazkov> my site don't have any microformats on it, but I build sites for living, and all of them have plenties
  423. [14:23:22] <tantek> the point is
  424. [14:23:29] <tantek> if you can't be bothered to add hCard to your site
  425. [14:23:45] <tantek> then why should the microformats community be bothered to help you come up with a new microformat?
  426. [14:24:14] <tantek> my hypothesis (and experience) is that 95% of requests for new microformats can be 80+% satisifed with existing microformats
  427. [14:24:37] <tantek> and the *only* way to determine what the remaining 20% is (if there even is that much) is to actually first try *publishing* with existing microformats
  428. [14:24:41] <dglazkov> I believe that too
  429. [14:24:56] <tantek> this is something that is unintuitive to people when they think about developing data formats
  430. [14:25:00] <tantek> that is the challenge
  431. [14:25:08] <tantek> and the innovation of the microformats process
  432. [14:25:11] <dglazkov> that's a blog post to me
  433. [14:25:18] <dglazkov> a tantek.com blog post
  434. [14:25:55] <dglazkov> I am also going to add this:
  435. [14:26:17] <dglazkov> there are plenty of examples of existing formats that were developed by straining logic into unhealthy requirements
  436. [14:26:40] <dglazkov> and there is no way microformats will be adopting these formats like hCard/vCard
  437. [14:27:08] <dglazkov> I am currently studying common data set: http://www.commondataset.org/
  438. [14:27:18] <dglazkov> and it's a prime example
  439. [14:27:54] <dglazkov> this goes in hand with "start using before trying to invent new or adapt existing"
  440. [14:28:16] <tantek> yeah, it is amazing how often that mistake is repeated
  441. [14:28:28] <tantek> ah a blog post
  442. [14:28:36] <tantek> ok, that's a good idea
  443. [14:28:44] <tantek> I'll try to think about it and write one up
  444. [14:29:32] <dglazkov> I actually believe that "reality before formality" is something that's not logical to software engineers. and writing this up well will go a long way
  445. [14:29:54] <dglazkov> I'll try to post, too
  446. [14:32:05] <tantek> dglazkov: "reality before formality" is an *awesome* soundbite
  447. [14:32:43] <dglazkov> heh
  448. [14:33:33] <pnhChris> i'm with you on the use what you got first... but i just don't think enough site redesigns are iterative enough to make it work... its the process people use that's just as at fault as anything else... gather up all kinds of information, make lots of decisions before doing anything, redo the site / templates, revisit in a year or two
  449. [14:33:36] <tantek> only one reference to that phrase on the web according to Google, and that one ref is in a PDF document
  450. [14:33:43] <tantek> so it doesn't really count ;)
  451. [14:35:49] <tantek> Chris, "don't think enough site redesigns are iterative enough to make it work" - not sure I understand what you mean by that
  452. [14:37:56] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  453. [14:37:56] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  454. [14:38:53] <tantek> iteration is the *key* to microformats development
  455. [14:38:59] <pnhChris> once a site is redesigned and up without bugs its "done", not something you'd look to iterate over
  456. [14:39:01] <pnhChris> sure
  457. [14:39:13] <tantek> if you can't iterate your website, then it's probably not worth developing a new microformat for you
  458. [14:39:22] <pnhChris> well.. there's the rub
  459. [14:39:29] <tantek> either you deal with live sites or dead ones
  460. [14:39:59] <tantek> so if you're only doing a one-off, it's best to *only* use existing well understood microformats
  461. [14:40:14] <tantek> so that what you put in place will work/last for a while
  462. [14:40:47] <tantek> it makes no sense at all to use a draft proposal in a one-off site, because it is likely the draft proposal will quickly change, making your original use of it nearly useless
  463. [14:41:00] <pnhChris> but wehn people are sitting there locked in a room somewhere evaulating the "best" way to do it... that's when they hit the point of spending all the time trying to come up with a format for themselves
  464. [14:41:10] <pnhChris> not saying that's a good thing at all
  465. [14:41:24] <pnhChris> just see a clash between what happens and your suggestion
  466. [14:41:29] <tantek> ah, well in that case, actually, they should just use semantic class names
  467. [14:41:35] <tantek> and not worry about making it a "format"
  468. [14:41:52] <tantek> the only reason to create a format is if you are trying to interoperate with other sites/applications
  469. [14:42:02] <tantek> and in most of those cases, they're not trying to do that
  470. [14:42:13] <tantek> they're just trying to be as properly semantic as possible
  471. [14:42:19] * pnhChris nods
  472. [14:42:26] <tantek> which is totally fine, it's just that there is no need to formalize what they're coming up with
  473. [14:42:32] <dglazkov> actually, I have a word for that :)
  474. [14:42:34] <tantek> into a microformat
  475. [14:42:47] <dglazkov> markup system
  476. [14:43:25] <tantek> it's really just "information architecture" frankly
  477. [14:43:31] <tantek> you come up with the IA for the site
  478. [14:43:33] <tantek> for the pages
  479. [14:43:37] <dglazkov> yep.
  480. [14:43:39] <tantek> for the stuff in the pages
  481. [14:43:49] <tantek> with names for the pages and the parts of pages
  482. [14:44:01] <tantek> and just use those names in the class attributes of the elements respectively
  483. [14:44:08] <tantek> (or id as the case may be)
  484. [14:44:10] <dglazkov> yep.
  485. [14:44:18] <tantek> and then write your CSS rules to select them
  486. [14:44:26] <pnhChris> anyway.. i've got to jump into work in a few... hatom content:required? thoughts tantek?
  487. [14:44:32] <dglazkov> or JS to attach behaviors
  488. [14:44:34] <tantek> no need to "standardize" your IA for other folks to try to do something with
  489. [14:44:43] <tantek> entry-content?
  490. [14:44:48] <pnhChris> aye
  491. [14:45:06] <pnhChris> compare the scehma text and the field fescription in the 0.1 spec
  492. [14:45:23] <pnhChris> i /think/ the schema is off
  493. [14:45:29] <tantek> probably
  494. [14:45:37] <tantek> take the prose description over the schema/grammar
  495. [14:45:38] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Schema
  496. [14:45:46] <tantek> that's a general rule for interpreting specs
  497. [14:45:47] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Content
  498. [14:46:40] <tantek> yep, definitely the prose
  499. [14:46:46] <tantek> ok, this is an easy fix
  500. [14:47:57] <tantek> pnhChris, note this statement in the schema: "Some required elements have defaults if missing, see below."
  501. [14:48:12] <tantek> I don't particularly like that way of writing
  502. [14:48:18] <tantek> either it is required, or it isn't
  503. [14:48:26] <tantek> something with automagic defaults is not really required
  504. [14:49:39] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=7068 * Tantek * (+24) Schema - tweaked entry-content required/optional to be more logically consistent with prose field description
  505. [14:50:02] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  506. [14:51:07] * pnhChris nods and goes off to workin'
  507. [14:51:09] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  508. [14:51:18] * pnhChris is now known as pnhWorkin
  509. [14:51:28] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  510. [14:57:50] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  511. [15:00:25] <tantek> hey drew welcome back
  512. [15:00:36] <drewinthehead> hey tantek
  513. [15:01:49] <tantek> drew, start reading the log here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-06-30#T140654
  514. [15:02:01] <drewinthehead> already doing so ;)
  515. [15:02:03] <tantek> I think I have some answers/suggestions to what you were discussion several hours ago
  516. [15:02:06] <tantek> :)
  517. [15:08:03] <drewinthehead> ok, I'm caught up
  518. [15:09:00] <drewinthehead> you're right, tantek, we should be using existing hcards before creating new ones - especially where creating new cards is either tricky or painful
  519. [15:09:19] <tantek> right. increases fidelity. reduces user typing.
  520. [15:11:22] <drewinthehead> sorting hcard data is another thing i need to tackle. with so many elements being repeatable, it's becomes quite a messy structure once normalised
  521. [15:11:43] <tantek> indeed
  522. [15:11:47] <drewinthehead> my temptation is to store as xml, or a serialised object
  523. [15:11:49] <tantek> some details are being figured out and written down
  524. [15:12:35] <tantek> e.g. see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties
  525. [15:13:10] <drewinthehead> is your search tool normalising the data, or is that top secret?
  526. [15:13:35] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  527. [15:13:48] <tantek> what do you mean by normalizing?
  528. [15:14:01] <tantek> I'll be as helpful as I can with all this stuff
  529. [15:14:16] <tantek> the more we figure this all out as a community, the better for everyone
  530. [15:17:03] <drewinthehead> normalised in the RDBMS sense
  531. [15:17:33] <drewinthehead> splitting every different type of data out into its own table
  532. [15:17:53] <tantek> relational, got it
  533. [15:18:04] <tantek> it's not clear that is really possible with web-wide distributed data
  534. [15:18:11] <tantek> that's the real challenge
  535. [15:18:21] <tantek> the web *is* the RDBMS for this data
  536. [15:18:36] <tantek> everything else is just a "cache" or "approximation" of that data
  537. [15:19:15] <drewinthehead> ok, so saying you want to cache that in your own personal RDBMS ...
  538. [15:20:26] <drewinthehead> it perfectly achievable, but it'd be, what, 20, 30 tables?
  539. [15:20:29] <tantek> the key here is that in a *cache*, you can't depend on *relations* between fields
  540. [15:21:03] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  541. [15:21:20] <tantek> I'm not even sure that RDBMS's make good caches
  542. [15:21:29] <tantek> I'm not saying I have all this figured out
  543. [15:21:54] <tantek> part of the reason we built the Microformats Search technology preview was to *start* figuring some of this out with practical experience
  544. [15:22:18] <drewinthehead> i agree that an RDBMS isn't necessarily a good way to go, hence my initial ponderings
  545. [15:22:28] <dglazkov> my experience is that RDBMS sucks at managing perfectly normalized data
  546. [15:22:37] <dglazkov> doh!
  547. [15:22:42] <dglazkov> the opposite!
  548. [15:23:19] <dglazkov> but Web data is almost never perfectly normalized -- permutations of relationship possibilities will kill ya
  549. [15:23:52] <dglazkov> and the funny thing is
  550. [15:24:03] <dglazkov> while normalizing is a big deal for RDBMS
  551. [15:24:04] <tantek> yes
  552. [15:24:34] <dglazkov> in a lot of cases (reality), developers don't utilize that normalization to the extent it's advertised
  553. [15:24:50] <tantek> that too
  554. [15:25:09] <dglazkov> look at ruby
  555. [15:25:15] <drewinthehead> i think perhaps the solution i'm looking for is to extract out and store relationally any information i need to reuse, and then stash the entire hcard as a string of xml for use later
  556. [15:25:41] <tantek> or just store the entire hCard *as is* as a string of (X)HTML for use later
  557. [15:25:48] <dglazkov> right. Stop thinking of it as normalizing, and start thinkiing of it as tagging
  558. [15:25:54] <tantek> I mean, heck, parsing that is not any more difficult/slow than some made up XML format
  559. [15:26:22] <tantek> plus that means one less format to document/test :D
  560. [15:26:24] <drewinthehead> that's what I meant... the hCard *is* xml by the time it's extracted from its context
  561. [15:26:38] <tantek> right, with the class names etc.
  562. [15:27:01] <tantek> the problem is that a lot of conservative/traditional XML-heads reject that and require that element names be used for things like FN, N etc.
  563. [15:27:33] <drewinthehead> XML-heads can keep it ;)
  564. [15:27:47] <trovster> <h1><address class="author vcard"><a href="/" title="Back to the homepage of creation" rel="home me" class="org fn url" accesskey="1">Creation</a></address></h1> -- why is this invalid!?
  565. [15:28:24] <pnhWorkin> because address stinks?
  566. [15:28:39] <trovster> Well, yeh, but blame the hAtom for requiring it
  567. [15:28:45] <trovster> I don't want it there.
  568. [15:28:57] <tantek> hAtom doesn't require it does it?
  569. [15:29:00] <trovster> h1, is block, address is inline, so it should be fine.
  570. [15:29:00] <tantek> it shouldn't
  571. [15:29:03] <tantek> I need to fix that
  572. [15:29:09] <tantek> to be consistent with the way "reviewer" works in hReview
  573. [15:29:15] <tantek> which we have had much more experience with
  574. [15:29:19] <pnhWorkin> if its the case i think it does
  575. [15:29:21] <tantek> and works well for folks
  576. [15:29:23] <trovster> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author -- find the Nearest In Parent <address> element(s) with class name author and that is/are a valid hCard
  577. [15:29:31] <pnhWorkin> nearest parent... yeah
  578. [15:29:37] <pnhWorkin> in^
  579. [15:29:44] <tantek> nearest in parent - I hate that expression
  580. [15:29:56] <tantek> I think it is terribly unintuitive, but maybe that is just me.
  581. [15:30:05] <trovster> Sorry, what am I missing?
  582. [15:30:26] <pnhWorkin> nothing trovster, unless i'm missing it too
  583. [15:30:37] <pnhWorkin> but i think we've been over this before....
  584. [15:30:50] <trovster> I mean about the "nearest in parent"
  585. [15:31:38] <trovster> And the 'invalid' HTML :@
  586. [15:32:04] <tantek> we need to just make that require "author"
  587. [15:32:10] <tantek> and make the ADDRESS a SHOULD, not a MUST
  588. [15:32:26] <tantek> use of <ADDRESS> that is
  589. [15:32:43] <trovster> So, I can move it to the HTML I had, with <div id="braning" class="author vcard"> ?
  590. [15:32:54] <tantek> IMHO yes
  591. [15:33:16] <dglazkov> that would make things easier
  592. [15:33:55] <trovster> Ah, k. We were debating this earlier!
  593. [15:35:44] <pnhWorkin> is that a change of heart tantek, or was it other who were adamant about it being address in this case
  594. [15:35:57] <pnhWorkin> cause i know the issue has come up before.. a number of times...
  595. [15:36:10] <pnhWorkin> specificially with my own attempts at hatom usage
  596. [15:36:35] <pnhWorkin> where the pattern required it to be address
  597. [15:37:14] <pnhWorkin> and i wanted to use, say, p class="author vcard".. because the data wasn't /all/ address stuff (but also copywright and other content)
  598. [15:37:42] <trovster> pnhWorkin: Yeh, I didn't want to use vcard on an inline element, the reason I had it on the container, is that I could add other information later.
  599. [15:37:52] <trovster> I've removed it, the hatom2atom script will need to be updated, I htink
  600. [15:38:44] <pnhWorkin> was it an implementor specific requirement (to make searching for the element outside of the root easier?
  601. [15:38:46] <tantek> pnhChris, it is not a change of heart
  602. [15:38:56] <tantek> I just haven't spoken up much in those earlier discussions
  603. [15:39:08] <tantek> was holding back a bit and seeing what other folks came up with
  604. [15:39:44] <tantek> I think it was being too strict about re-using the semantics of <address>
  605. [15:40:39] * MarkDilley (n=Mark@c-68-40-13-127.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  606. [15:40:40] <drewinthehead> <address> is fine in simple cases, but it would seem SHOULD is more appropriate than MUST
  607. [15:41:17] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  608. [15:41:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  609. [15:41:17] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  610. [15:41:24] <tantek> drew, agreed
  611. [15:41:34] <pnhWorkin> i mean.. i do kindof understand the desire not to have to search the document for class of hcard+author all the time
  612. [15:41:36] <tantek> BTW, take a look at the definition of "reviewer" in hReview: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Field_details
  613. [15:41:40] <tantek> in comparison
  614. [15:42:00] <pnhWorkin> but the flip side doesn't seem to be practical from my POV
  615. [15:42:14] <tantek> right
  616. [15:42:43] * pnhWorkin reads hreview
  617. [15:43:15] <pnhWorkin> that reads on first pass like it also requires address
  618. [15:43:22] <pnhWorkin> just not the vcard part
  619. [15:43:38] <pnhWorkin> for reviewer
  620. [15:44:02] <drewinthehead> i disagree ... it's saying if no specific reviewer is given, look at the context of the review. if the page has an address, use that
  621. [15:44:20] <drewinthehead> or if it's hAtom, use the author from the relevant entry
  622. [15:44:23] <pnhWorkin> reviewer inside > reviewr outside > address outside
  623. [15:45:13] <drewinthehead> that's an example of where to look.
  624. [15:45:16] <pnhWorkin> but author vcard is not a substite for address in that case
  625. [15:45:42] <pnhWorkin> unless i'm reading it too explicitly
  626. [15:45:48] <pnhWorkin> on first read
  627. [15:46:14] <tantek> but an "author reviewer vcard" is
  628. [15:46:18] <drewinthehead> the vcard inside the review is perfect, and the best-case
  629. [15:47:26] <drewinthehead> are you saying that when it comes to detecting ownership of the document, ADDRESS is taken in preference to a nearby hCard?
  630. [15:48:16] <tantek> yes
  631. [15:48:25] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  632. [15:48:33] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-214-138-239.perm.iinet.net.au) has left #microformats
  633. [15:48:34] <drewinthehead> that's correct though, isn't it.
  634. [15:48:43] <drewinthehead> a nearby hCard could be anything
  635. [15:49:14] <drewinthehead> i could end up attributing a movie review to my dentist.
  636. [15:49:32] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  637. [15:49:38] <drewinthehead> and my dentist *hates* the movies.
  638. [15:49:46] <pnhWorkin> shouldn't there be a bottom line for all microformats looking for author information?
  639. [15:49:49] <tantek> right, a "nearby hCard" is far too unreliable to be workable. you would get lots of unintended/confusing results
  640. [15:50:03] <tantek> pnhChris, that's essentially what we're using hReview to "figure out"
  641. [15:50:23] <tantek> it is good to figure it such things out in the context of a specific requirement rather than "all microformats in general"
  642. [15:50:36] <tantek> and then we see if the specific solution we found works for all
  643. [15:50:40] <tantek> drew: LOL
  644. [15:51:08] <pnhWorkin> and if its to be expanded to other formats I don't see "author reviewer vcard" to be the worst case... there should be some other equivalent to address.. which I would think would be simply class="author vcard"
  645. [15:51:32] <tantek> so you're saying, a document level generic authorship indicator?
  646. [15:51:43] <tantek> perhaps
  647. [15:51:47] <tantek> something to think about
  648. [15:51:52] <drewinthehead> hmm ... we could call it ADDRESS
  649. [15:51:59] <drewinthehead> ;)
  650. [15:52:24] <pnhWorkin> i read the hreview reviewer text, as it stands now as the following .. "look for a item specific reviewer, if not found find a page specific reviewer, if not found find a page author"
  651. [15:52:48] <pnhWorkin> but the definition of page author as only ADDRESS doesn't work for me
  652. [15:52:54] <tantek> yes, that is a good interpretation
  653. [15:52:55] <pnhWorkin> ... same issue with hatom
  654. [15:53:02] <tantek> different issue with hAtom
  655. [15:53:05] <drewinthehead> the page author's vcard should include an ADDRESS
  656. [15:53:18] <tantek> we don't define how HTML defines who is the author of the page
  657. [15:53:27] <tantek> HTML defines who is the author/contact for the page
  658. [15:53:31] <tantek> as <address>
  659. [15:53:41] <tantek> similarly the point about Atom feed and author
  660. [15:53:57] <drewinthehead> right .. so it makes sense to use that as part of the author's hCard
  661. [15:54:09] <tantek> microformats don't redefine what the containing envelope format defines
  662. [15:55:23] * drewinthehead nods.
  663. [15:56:10] <pnhWorkin> so where does that leave <p class="author vcard">
  664. [15:56:26] <pnhWorkin> nowhere in the hreview equation, correct?
  665. [15:56:26] <tantek> it doesn't mean anything outside of a specific microformat that defines "author"
  666. [15:56:31] <tantek> right
  667. [15:56:49] <pnhWorkin> what about the hatom equation?
  668. [15:56:51] <tantek> however, in hAtom, we should define "author" just as we define "reviewer" in hReview
  669. [15:57:05] <tantek> there is no reason for those to be different
  670. [15:57:14] <tantek> and hReview has much more experience
  671. [15:57:26] <tantek> (that's why it is at v0.3 :) )
  672. [15:57:47] <tantek> hAtom should reuse the definition of "reviewer" from hReview
  673. [15:57:56] <tantek> rather than trying to invent its own mechanism for "authorship"
  674. [15:58:07] <tantek> using the term "author" is fine, since that is a reuse of vocabulary from Atom
  675. [15:58:21] <tantek> but the algorithm/prose should mirror hReview's reviewer IMHO
  676. [15:58:25] <tantek> what do others think?
  677. [16:00:07] <pnhWorkin> i think (a) the clash with meaning between page author and page wide hatom author may be confusing where page wide reviewer isn't.. and (b) i think i'll forever be longing for a mf defined equivalent of <ADDRESS class="author vcard">
  678. [16:00:41] <tantek> pnhChris, that's not out of the question
  679. [16:00:42] <pnhWorkin> .. or if not equivalent... one "worse case" step lower on the totem pole
  680. [16:01:04] <tantek> there is a reasonable case to be made for extracting "author" out of hAtom and making it into its own elemental microformat
  681. [16:01:09] <tantek> which can be reused as a building block
  682. [16:01:19] <tantek> similar to how we extracted "geo" and "adr" from hCard
  683. [16:01:40] <pnhWorkin> tantek: that's EXACTLY what i thought people were trying to define with the nearest in parent usage
  684. [16:01:55] <pnhWorkin> but anyway.. i really have a pile of crap to do that i should be doing
  685. [16:02:02] <tantek> the problem is that I'm not convinced nearest in parent actually works in enough cases
  686. [16:02:30] <tantek> the key is going to be finding a second microformat that needs generic "author"ship like that and seeing if the same construct works for it
  687. [16:02:40] <tantek> perhaps there is hope with media-info
  688. [16:02:55] <tantek> the other thing I DONT want to do is to reinvent DC
  689. [16:03:04] <drewinthehead> hReview could use author
  690. [16:03:06] <pnhWorkin> there isn't already 2 in hatom + hreview?
  691. [16:03:06] <tantek> so we have to be careful about that
  692. [16:03:42] <tantek> we chose "reviewer" for hReview because we could pick a more specific semantic that made sense in that context 100% of the time
  693. [16:03:48] <pnhWorkin> both currently have some definition for usage of ADDRESS
  694. [16:03:52] <pnhWorkin> sure
  695. [16:04:00] <pnhWorkin> but it still has rules for falling back to address
  696. [16:04:09] <pnhWorkin> if the more specific case isn't there
  697. [16:04:15] <tantek> but hReview use of <address> is only within the context of using what HTML already defines
  698. [16:05:02] <pnhWorkin> but that nitpicking doesn't make sense to authors (read: me)
  699. [16:05:24] <drewinthehead> and that's where I think hAtom is potentially misusing <address>
  700. [16:05:47] <pnhWorkin> i /want/ them to both wind up falling back on the same thing
  701. [16:06:00] <pnhWorkin> specifically for the case of being able to sensibly author a page with both
  702. [16:06:27] <pnhWorkin> and in the case of a blog... where i may not know i'm using hreview until months after i've built the templates
  703. [16:06:35] * cgriego_ is now known as cgriego
  704. [16:06:44] <pnhWorkin> and i'm already using the "wosrt case" for hatom
  705. [16:06:52] <pnhWorkin> i need it to be the same for hreview
  706. [16:07:45] <tantek> right, that makes sense
  707. [16:07:50] <tantek> the answer there is to fix hAtom
  708. [16:07:57] <pnhWorkin> because otherwise this is invalid: http://placenamehere.com/article/211/TechnoratisNewToys
  709. [16:08:02] <pnhWorkin> which it is i guess
  710. [16:08:17] <tantek> so step one, let's make <address> a SHOULD, not a MUST in hAtom
  711. [16:08:21] <pnhWorkin> but ... i knew it was already i guess
  712. [16:08:37] * pnhWorkin recalls he ignored hatoms author with that one
  713. [16:08:47] <tantek> step two, let's make the rules for finding an hAtom "author" be what is already defined by hReivew for finding the "reviewer"
  714. [16:08:51] <pnhWorkin> left it for the redesign :P
  715. [16:09:10] <pnhWorkin> tantek: that still doesn't work for me
  716. [16:09:16] <tantek> why?
  717. [16:09:18] <pnhWorkin> because if i do step 2 for hatom
  718. [16:09:35] <pnhWorkin> and then decide to use hareview, media info, or some other content inside of a blog post
  719. [16:09:41] <pnhWorkin> i'll have to edit tempaltes
  720. [16:09:43] <pnhWorkin> again
  721. [16:09:47] <pnhWorkin> for each format
  722. [16:09:49] <tantek> why?
  723. [16:09:52] <tantek> not necessarily
  724. [16:10:06] <tantek> what makes you think you'll have to edit the templates?
  725. [16:10:23] <tantek> if all those other microformats fall back on "authorship" the same way, then what is the problem?
  726. [16:10:25] <pnhWorkin> p class="author vcard hatom-author"
  727. [16:10:40] <pnhWorkin> p class="author vcard reviewer"
  728. [16:10:51] <tantek> hence my point about extracting "author" as an elemental microformat
  729. [16:11:06] <tantek> don't assume problems that haven't happened yet
  730. [16:11:35] <pnhWorkin> tantek: step two, let's make the rules for finding an hAtom "author" be what is already defined by hReivew for finding the "reviewer"
  731. [16:11:39] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  732. [16:11:59] <pnhWorkin> i read that as extracting the middle step of "author vcard reviewer"
  733. [16:12:14] <pnhWorkin> which i don't see as working
  734. [16:12:56] <pnhWorkin> i need an LCD that doesn't have to know about individual formats.. and can be used in place of address if need be
  735. [16:13:14] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  736. [16:13:24] <tantek> we'll only figure out the right LCD by doing more than one format that reuses the same construct
  737. [16:13:31] <tantek> you can't figure out the LCD a priori
  738. [16:13:37] <tantek> others have tried and failed
  739. [16:14:02] <pnhWorkin> i don't see why a blog with hatom and the posts in that blog with hreview isn't that case
  740. [16:14:16] <pnhWorkin> its exactly what i'm doing right now
  741. [16:14:20] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  742. [16:14:35] <tantek> yes, that is a good test case
  743. [16:14:42] <tantek> but not for LCD
  744. [16:14:48] <pnhWorkin> and though my latest templates on chunkysoup use ADDRESS, the older tempaltes on PNH are bad in that area
  745. [16:15:41] <pnhWorkin> (they're not atom anyway.. just bad hreview)
  746. [16:15:48] <tantek> the thing is that hReview defines the reviewer to fallback to whatever the author is outside the hReview
  747. [16:16:04] <tantek> thus an hReview inside an hAtom entry will end up using the hAtom "author" as the reviewer
  748. [16:16:12] <tantek> make sense?
  749. [16:16:39] <pnhWorkin> no... because that gets us back to the every format needing to know about every format case
  750. [16:17:13] <tantek> from who's perspective?
  751. [16:17:15] <pnhWorkin> if there's an hfeed-level author, you'll need to have some logic to use that isntead of a page level author when parsing the hreview
  752. [16:17:19] <tantek> certainly not the eauthor
  753. [16:17:40] <tantek> I think this is a case where we make it easier for the publisher
  754. [16:17:43] <pnhWorkin> no, this time on the parser side
  755. [16:18:24] <tantek> if we have any other such container/envelope microformats, odds are they will end up reusing "author" because that's what will naturally come out of the microformats process
  756. [16:18:35] <tantek> so I think in practice this is a non-problem
  757. [16:18:47] <tantek> that's why I said don't worry about a problem that hasn't happened yet
  758. [16:19:02] <tantek> because I believe in practice (and evolution) it won't be a problem
  759. [16:19:08] <pnhWorkin> but it has with hreview inside hatom
  760. [16:19:17] <tantek> two formats a problem do not make
  761. [16:19:18] <pnhWorkin> or i'm not quite sure why it hasn't
  762. [16:19:24] <tantek> they're already well defined
  763. [16:19:29] <tantek> that's why its not a problem
  764. [16:20:01] * pnhWorkin looks at trovster's issue and doesn't think its a resolvable case
  765. [16:20:02] <tantek> it's only a problem if there are two or more *container/envelope* formats which do weird/different things with authorship
  766. [16:20:08] <pnhWorkin> but i must go now
  767. [16:20:12] <tantek> in the case you bring up
  768. [16:20:14] <tantek> there is only one
  769. [16:20:16] <tantek> just hAtom
  770. [16:20:27] <tantek> hence my point, not a problem yet
  771. [16:20:29] <trovster> pnhWorkin: Which issue?
  772. [16:20:41] <pnhWorkin> not wanting to be using address
  773. [16:21:18] <trovster> I'm keeping my <h1> and I can't put address in there...
  774. [16:21:36] <tantek> trovster, I'd say use <h1 class="author">
  775. [16:21:49] <tantek> and let's fix hAtom to make it a SHOULD not a MUST to use <address> and be done with it
  776. [16:21:49] <trovster> I'm using it on that container
  777. [16:22:23] <tantek> you've got a case where <address> doesn't work for you
  778. [16:22:24] <trovster> That'd be grand
  779. [16:22:29] <pnhWorkin> tantek: rewrite hatom how you think it should read and then we can revist... see if there's still a case where a resolution of hatom authorship doesn't automatically allow for hreview authorship resolution
  780. [16:22:53] <tantek> that's a reasonable constraint
  781. [16:23:23] <pnhWorkin> i think that is in that "middle" case
  782. [16:23:25] <pnhWorkin> but we can see
  783. [16:23:53] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=7069 * DeanEro * (+173) Music - added Vorbis comment recommendation as an example
  784. [16:27:35] <tantek> speaking of media-info ;)
  785. [16:28:09] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=7070 * DeanEro * (+173) Music - added Apple's iTunes DTD extending RSS 2 for podcasting.
  786. [16:35:51] <pnhWorkin> haha! i really should get up to make tuna salad for lunch more often
  787. [16:35:55] * drewinthehead is not convinced that an hAtom entry can be presumed to be a 'major part' of a document
  788. [16:36:01] <pnhWorkin> i'll have a great illustration in just one second
  789. [16:36:21] <pnhWorkin> and in the process make my hreview on PNH better
  790. [16:37:50] <pnhWorkin> its class="vcard author reviewer" correct?
  791. [16:38:03] <pnhWorkin> for a good reviewer outside of the review?
  792. [16:40:05] <pnhWorkin> ... that being the case (i can tweak to adjust, but it doesn't make any difference to my point)
  793. [16:40:12] <pnhWorkin> http://placenamehere.com/article/211/TechnoratisNewToys
  794. [16:40:41] <pnhWorkin> 2 hreviews with reviewer defined as p class="vcard author reviewer" in the footer
  795. [16:40:46] <pnhWorkin> no hatom anyhting at the moment
  796. [16:41:47] <pnhWorkin> ... but how to i add any other microformat (hatom for example) somewhere else on the page (link list in sidebar for example) to use that same element for the author information?
  797. [16:42:13] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-189-204.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  798. [16:42:32] <pnhWorkin> because i used that "middle" definition of a "page level format-specific author definition" i can't
  799. [16:43:49] <pnhWorkin> same case would exist for that "page level hatom-specific author" if you rewrote that spec
  800. [16:45:22] * bear is now known as bear_world_cup
  801. [16:45:26] <pnhWorkin> so the quetion: what are my alternatives to expanding the current PNH working case if I added other formats? seems to me again to be move to address or add format specific classes for every format i incude
  802. [16:55:45] <drewinthehead> pnhWorkin - i've not 100% got my head around this, hence my lack of response ;)
  803. [16:56:58] <pnhWorkin> oh thats ok.. its more a use case to answer with spec iterations then it was something i was looking for an asnwer from anyone now
  804. [16:58:02] <drewinthehead> just been grepping my logs (why does that sound gross?) - 952 downloads of hKit in the first 9 days
  805. [16:59:06] <briansuda> there is certainly an interest in microformats!
  806. [16:59:12] <bewest> definitely
  807. [16:59:21] <bewest> last night I was googling "php hcard parser"
  808. [16:59:27] <bewest> there were many many results
  809. [16:59:43] <bewest> hkit was up there
  810. [16:59:47] <bewest> I didn't check it out though
  811. [16:59:56] <drewinthehead> boooo! ;)
  812. [17:00:46] <bewest> sorry
  813. [17:00:48] <bewest> heh
  814. [17:00:56] <drewinthehead> any particular reason why not?
  815. [17:00:57] <bewest> I'm looking for a php4 parser
  816. [17:01:01] <drewinthehead> ah, ok
  817. [17:01:27] <pnhWorkin> random comments question... probably brought up.. and i'm not looking for an answer... how do you deal with "save my information"
  818. [17:01:31] <bewest> the php4 one by Asaf at labnotes.org is based on an implementation of getElementsBySelector()
  819. [17:01:34] <pnhWorkin> for repeat commentors
  820. [17:02:12] <drewinthehead> i went for php5 as i thought the xml parsers were better. i was wrong.
  821. [17:02:36] <pnhWorkin> simplexml is eenteresting.. and workable
  822. [17:02:42] <pnhWorkin> but not great
  823. [17:03:16] <drewinthehead> simplexml had me spitting feathers.
  824. [17:04:07] <drewinthehead> gotta dash .. back in a couple of hours
  825. [17:04:13] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  826. [17:04:23] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
  827. [17:16:57] * briansud1 (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  828. [17:21:47] * deanero skims some of that conversation about "author"ship and looks at hatom authors
  829. [17:22:31] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  830. [17:23:49] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  831. [17:24:28] <deanero> hmm. twas hoping that would be similar to what i think of as artists for music stuff
  832. [17:25:21] <deanero> probably not so much, though
  833. [17:35:18] <tantek> its actually pretty much the same concept
  834. [17:35:22] <tantek> who authored the stuff
  835. [17:35:27] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7071 * DeanEro * (+49) Introduction - disambiguate from the direction of media-info-- focus on artist and release descriptions.
  836. [17:35:40] <tantek> whether it is text, notes, lyrics, paint, rock, etc.
  837. [17:37:52] <deanero> yeah-- i was hoping to avoid having it relate directly to hcard-ish contact info, but maybe i need to better understand hcard
  838. [17:39:09] * briansud1 (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  839. [17:40:35] <bewest> hrm... the concept of author is ambiguous in music
  840. [17:41:26] <deanero> most of the band/artist info i publish is very general-- artist name, bio, associated releases
  841. [17:42:33] <bewest> actually authorship of music is very similar to that of code
  842. [17:43:08] <bewest> the creative processes at work are virtually identical
  843. [17:43:24] <deanero> there could be associated contact info, but not necessarily
  844. [17:43:41] <tantek> deanero - an hCard represents a *person* or *organizations*
  845. [17:43:48] <tantek> not just "contact info"
  846. [17:44:17] <bewest> but music has an extra twist of who performed it... which might be similar to who compiled the source if you were distributing binaries
  847. [17:44:20] <deanero> so if i use it as a general org, it should prolly work?
  848. [17:44:22] <tantek> bewest, I think the easiest simplification is to simply allow multiple authors
  849. [17:44:33] <bewest> sure
  850. [17:44:33] <tantek> and then use "role" to distinguish what each of them did
  851. [17:44:39] <bewest> I agree
  852. [17:44:47] <tantek> I believe that solves your composer/arranger dilemma
  853. [17:44:49] <bewest> I haven't seen any formats that do that though
  854. [17:44:54] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@adsl-71-131-224-33.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  855. [17:44:56] <bewest> but maybe I just missed it
  856. [17:44:58] <bewest> it would
  857. [17:45:13] <tantek> I don't think the problem is as hard as it may seem
  858. [17:45:25] <tantek> bbiab
  859. [17:46:07] <deanero> in my db, i have org->artist then associate many types of contacts with the artist
  860. [17:46:31] <deanero> booking agents, managers, actual members of the band, etc
  861. [17:46:32] <tantek> a person can have multiple adrs, tels etc.
  862. [17:46:44] <bewest> but not more than one geo :-)
  863. [17:46:46] <tantek> and agents for that matter
  864. [17:46:53] <tantek> that's right bewest!
  865. [17:47:19] <bewest> seems strange that you can't do a one to one mapping of adr -> geo
  866. [17:47:57] <bewest> many to one of entity -> adr but only one to one of entity -> geo
  867. [17:48:02] <tantek> they mean different things
  868. [17:48:08] <bewest> yeah
  869. [17:48:27] <bewest> still seems strange though
  870. [17:48:32] <deanero> er, party->org->artist, rather
  871. [17:48:50] <bewest> I think most people would think that a geo is an unambiguous resolution of what adr means
  872. [17:49:03] <tantek> yeah, the naming is suboptimal
  873. [17:49:14] <tantek> geo is more the type of data than the semantic
  874. [17:49:27] <tantek> it should have been called something like "location"
  875. [17:49:32] <tantek> of type geo
  876. [17:49:45] <tantek> but hey, we're reusing what we got from vCard
  877. [17:49:53] <tantek> sorry guys, I find this conversation very interesting, but I have to run.
  878. [17:50:21] <deanero> heh :)
  879. [17:50:25] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  880. [17:51:32] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  881. [17:51:32] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  882. [17:51:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  883. [17:52:18] * bear_world_cup is now known as bear
  884. [17:53:25] <Harry_Slaughter> is there a page that gives a general idea of who's providing support for microformats (like yahoo, and particularly applications)?
  885. [17:54:21] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  886. [17:55:43] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("I'll be right back.")
  887. [17:55:57] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/implementations ?
  888. [17:56:12] <Harry_Slaughter> perfect, tks
  889. [17:56:36] <Harry_Slaughter> impressive list
  890. [17:59:06] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  891. [18:03:44] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  892. [18:06:14] <deanero> i don't really use much more than artist name, bio/description, and status with artists. then it's just a stub to associate other things (releases, contact info, tour date, etc.) with
  893. [18:06:58] <deanero> i think emusic and allmusic are somewhat similar
  894. [18:07:03] * deanero mutters aloud
  895. [18:13:27] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-189-204.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  896. [18:13:59] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-189-204.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  897. [18:29:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  898. [18:39:53] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  899. [18:39:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  900. [18:40:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  901. [18:40:54] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  902. [18:48:25] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7072 * DeanEro * (+589) Artist pages - added and cleaned up examples
  903. [18:50:03] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  904. [18:50:03] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  905. [18:56:16] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7073 * DeanEro * (+121) Record Label pages - a few more indies
  906. [18:59:09] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  907. [19:12:22] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  908. [19:28:42] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-141-164-155.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  909. [19:28:43] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  910. [19:29:25] <drewinthehead> here's trouble
  911. [19:29:57] <drewinthehead> how's your hAtom going, trovster?
  912. [19:29:58] <kingryan> its a british invasion
  913. [19:30:28] <trovster> drewinthehead: Well, that stopped about an hour half ago, when I left work, 7pm on a Friday is late enough!
  914. [19:30:50] <drewinthehead> you mean you don't do this for fun? ;)
  915. [19:31:31] <trovster> Well, yes, I need to develop my new website, but I haven't really got a good place after work to develop it
  916. [19:31:42] <trovster> I'm currently living with my boss during the week ;)
  917. [19:32:18] <trovster> Also, I'm going to nick all the code I develop for this package for my site :D And I'm waiting on a design too, should pay someone I think
  918. [19:35:13] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  919. [19:39:00] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  920. [19:41:16] * Remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  921. [19:41:16] <jibot> Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  922. [20:07:35] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  923. [20:10:36] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  924. [20:20:37] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  925. [20:23:03] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  926. [20:32:37] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  927. [20:34:46] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  928. [20:37:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-fr&diff=0&oldid=7074 * ChristopheDucamp * (+417) Propriétés Singulières vs. Plurielles -
  929. [20:42:59] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  930. [20:47:11] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7075 * DeanEro * (+661) Release Sites - more explanation and examples of release pages
  931. [20:47:39] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  932. [20:47:39] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  933. [20:48:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  934. [20:48:47] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+2449) [fr: structure translated -> to be reviewed]
  935. [20:56:44] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-141-164-155.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  936. [21:02:49] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  937. [21:11:20] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  938. [21:11:55] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-74-227.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  939. [21:22:04] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7076 * DeanEro * (+553) Introduction - clearer explanation of artists and releases
  940. [21:23:20] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7077 * DeanEro * (+4) Introduction - link fix
  941. [21:26:06] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7078 * DeanEro * (+7) Artist pages - clarification
  942. [21:27:22] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  943. [21:44:40] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  944. [21:45:43] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  945. [21:47:59] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7079 * DeanEro * (+40) Introduction - clarified distinction between performing artist and composer
  946. [21:49:53] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  947. [21:52:32] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-141-164-155.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  948. [21:52:33] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  949. [22:02:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  950. [22:02:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  951. [22:04:09] <drewinthehead> ok hReview question
  952. [22:04:38] <drewinthehead> i have a product detail page with an except of the most recent review, which then links through to a page of reviews.
  953. [22:04:55] <drewinthehead> should the except be marked up with hReview?
  954. [22:05:10] <kingryan> it can be
  955. [22:05:18] <kingryan> just point the hReview's permalink at the full one
  956. [22:05:35] <drewinthehead> ok
  957. [22:06:07] <drewinthehead> rel="review" would be good to, I guess, to point to a page full of hReviews of the current item
  958. [22:06:26] <kingryan> sure
  959. [22:06:46] <trovster> rel="review permalink"
  960. [22:06:51] <kingryan> makes the most sense if those are reviews of that page or whatever that page represents
  961. [22:07:45] <drewinthehead> exactly - the reviews are of the product which is represented by the page
  962. [22:07:53] <kingryan> that'll work
  963. [22:08:40] <drewinthehead> trovster, that'd be rel="review bookmark"
  964. [22:09:00] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-bookmark
  965. [22:09:24] <trovster> haha, oh yeh; )
  966. [22:23:23] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  967. [22:23:57] * drewinthehead looks up and realises that 11.30 on a Friday night is not the best time to still be marking up hReviews.
  968. [22:24:31] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  969. [22:24:43] <pnhWorkin> teehee
  970. [22:24:57] <pnhWorkin> just one of them days drewinthehead_
  971. [22:33:38] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  972. [22:40:44] * pnhWorkin (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  973. [22:45:22] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@adsl-71-131-224-33.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  974. [22:54:31] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-189-204.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  975. [22:58:06] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7080 * DeanEro * (+455) Added major label examples
  976. [23:13:21] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  977. [23:21:17] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  978. [23:25:33] * UncleFu86 (n=UncleFu8@L1df9.l.pppool.de) has joined #microformats
  979. [23:27:28] * UncleFu86 (n=UncleFu8@L1df9.l.pppool.de) Quit (Client Quit)
  980. [23:27:29] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-141-164-155.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  981. [23:37:38] <mfbot> [[media-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7081 * DeanEro * (+111) Elements that come up often in practice - added ISRC- it's required by most digital distributors of audio and video
  982. [23:43:51] <tantek> greetings
  983. [23:43:56] <tantek> sigh
  984. [23:44:03] <tantek> "required by..." is irrelevant
  985. [23:44:10] <tantek> what people actually *do* publish is relevant
  986. [23:44:36] * tantek just updated Technorati Microformats Search with some fixes/tweaks.
  987. [23:44:48] <tantek> performance should be improved for multiword searches like "San Francisco"
  988. [23:45:05] <tantek> could folks give http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/ a try and let me know how it works for them?
  989. [23:46:54] <Remi> working for me
  990. [23:47:02] <tantek> great
  991. [23:47:18] <Remi> tried 'Los Angeles' and '"Los Angeles"'
  992. [23:48:19] * briansuda (n=briansud@ACA89AF7.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  993. [23:48:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  994. [23:48:20] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  995. [23:54:43] <bewest> hmm was someone working on media markup with specific considerations for images?
  996. [23:54:48] <bewest> I found a great example in the wild
  997. [23:54:58] <bewest> http://www.fotonotes.net/

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