IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  10. [00:45:40] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  11. [01:26:16] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  12. [01:43:18] * briansuda just pushed files to HG, be sure to pull/update the repos
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  15. [01:57:31] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  16. [01:57:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  17. [01:58:06] <tantek> greetings
  18. [01:58:08] <tantek> briansuda in the house?
  19. [02:00:03] <tantek> found a bug with NOTE property handling. X2V doesn't appear to escape ";" chars in the NOTE field, and thus when importing into Address Book (and perhaps other implementations), the field value terminates at the first ";" in the content
  20. [02:00:13] <tantek> may be a problem with other properties as well
  21. [02:03:59] * arapehl (n=ara@toronto-HSE-ppp4169542.sympatico.ca) has joined #microformats
  22. [02:04:16] <briansuda> tantek, i'll have a look. Good catch. I think i am escaping ; everywhere else, i must have introduced that error when i concatenate them together
  23. [02:05:36] <tantek> the example I saw only had a single "note" element BTW
  24. [02:06:57] <briansuda> do you have a link?
  25. [02:08:13] <tantek> http://theatermitu.org/company/acelik.html
  26. [02:10:47] <briansuda> ok, several things are happening... it is interesting that X2V grabbed the HTML code that is commented out. I'll have to look into avoiding that! and it looks like it IS escape SOME of the ;'s so i'll look into why not all of them?
  27. [02:11:33] * briansuda things he sees the problem... the colon that is NOT being escaped is the first char in the string... interesting
  28. [02:12:23] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  29. [02:12:23] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  30. [02:22:35] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  33. [02:44:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  34. [02:45:33] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  35. [03:03:46] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC861C68.ipt.aol.com) Quit ("need to restart... BRB")
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  37. [03:11:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  38. [03:15:17] <briansuda> OK, i managed to get all the ';'s escaped. (http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A//theatermitu.org/company/acelik.html) i still need to look into removing the HTML comments
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  42. [03:22:03] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  43. [03:44:02] * briansuda has updated the HG repos please be sure to pull/update
  44. [03:51:29] * arapehl (n=ara@toronto-HSE-ppp4169542.sympatico.ca) Quit ("Bye!")
  45. [03:54:40] * tantek is having UTF8 problems with his last name and hCard->vCard->AddressBook 4.0.3
  46. [03:55:11] * amette__ (n=amette@pD9E6AC93.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  47. [03:56:31] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AE1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  48. [03:56:31] * briansuda remembers problems with that version. Somewhere in the preferences there is a setting for Encodings. He also vaguely remembers that is why we had a BOM for UTF-16
  49. [03:56:55] * briansuda might have it confused with an even earlier version, he is running 4.0.4
  50. [03:59:56] * amette__ is now known as amette
  51. [04:07:44] <tantek> hmm...
  52. [04:07:49] <tantek> yeah, there is a setting
  53. [04:08:51] <briansuda> the CHARSET=UTF-8 in the .vcf should take precedence
  54. [04:08:58] <tantek> it should
  55. [04:10:42] <briansuda> well, we managed to document alot of the issues, except the version number :) http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations
  56. [04:11:11] <tantek> hmm.... changing the setting has no effect in 4.0.3
  57. [04:11:37] <tantek> This appears to be a regression from the default Address Book in 10.3 to the default in 10.4
  58. [04:11:49] <briansuda> if that is the version i remember, if you wanted proper UTF-8 you had to use UTF-16
  59. [04:12:01] <briansuda> are you getting asian characters all over the place?
  60. [04:12:27] <tantek> no
  61. [04:12:37] <tantek> no, this used to work
  62. [04:13:05] <briansuda> do you have a link, i'll see what it does in my version. maybe it is an hCard/X2V issue?
  63. [04:20:01] <tantek> well, http://tantek.com/
  64. [04:20:10] <tantek> the get vCard down at the bottom of the page
  65. [04:20:17] <tantek> and I just found one that works
  66. [04:20:53] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  67. [04:21:46] <tantek> http://www.vivabit.com/atmedia2006/speakers/
  68. [04:21:49] <briansuda> that looks like an issue the the Technorati feed service. I ran the same link through the web service on my site and it works fine.
  69. [04:21:53] <tantek> imports correctly
  70. [04:21:57] <tantek> hmm...
  71. [04:21:58] <tantek> ok
  72. [04:23:01] <briansuda> is the technorati detecting the content-type the page is being served-up as? that is the only other thing i can think of... because the vCard output, when opened in a text editor is garbled, so it is not an Address book issue
  73. [04:24:13] <tantek> it is?
  74. [04:24:19] <briansuda> as well, they have escaped Ç as &#199;
  75. [04:24:21] <tantek> I thought I saw proper output
  76. [04:24:28] <tantek> hmm...
  77. [04:24:36] <briansuda> FN;LANGUAGE=tr;CHARSET=UTF-8:Tantek Çelik
  78. [04:25:13] <briansuda> unless your text-editor was being "helpful" and setting the content-type to UTF-8? (or mine is being un-helpful and NOT)?
  79. [04:28:43] <tantek> I see the corruption as well
  80. [04:28:54] <briansuda> this link gives me a good vcard: http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A//tantek.com/%23hcard
  81. [04:29:14] <briansuda> so that leads me to think it is an issue on the feeds web service
  82. [04:30:28] <tantek> yes, that appears to be
  83. [04:37:21] <tantek> I have confirmed that the URL you gave provides a valid UTF8 .vcf stream, and that http://feeds.technorati.com/contacts/http%3A//tantek.com/%23hcard does not.
  84. [04:38:07] <briansuda> I think i know some guys who work there, i can ask them to look into it ")
  85. [04:38:12] <briansuda> :)
  86. [04:46:20] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC8237C9.ipt.aol.com) Quit ("off to bed")
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  96. [07:01:17] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  97. [07:01:18] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  98. [07:17:52] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@pool-71-116-86-17.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
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  101. [08:08:09] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  102. [08:08:09] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  103. [08:31:51] <trovster> http://friendlybit.com/html/current-issues-with-microformats/
  104. [08:41:02] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  105. [08:50:52] <KevinMarks> namespace foofooraw
  106. [08:51:08] <KevinMarks> and a stylistic nit about 8601
  107. [08:51:53] <KevinMarks> 20060621T1030-0700 can easily be 2006-06-21 10:30-0700
  108. [09:04:47] <KevinMarks> commented
  109. [09:09:46] <trovster> "I have not touched upon all the extra elements microformats add to the HTML" -- yeh, I didn't get that part...
  110. [09:12:44] <KevinMarks> when he is going off into the weeds inventing meta randomness and suggesting using <ins> non-semantically...
  111. [09:21:14] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  112. [09:22:53] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  113. [09:32:19] <drewinthehead> morning
  114. [09:35:47] <trovster> Mornin'
  115. [10:55:17] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  116. [10:55:18] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  119. [11:38:29] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  120. [12:09:27] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  128. [13:59:51] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  129. [13:59:51] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  130. [13:59:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  134. [14:44:41] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  135. [14:48:36] <drewinthehead> hi pnhChris
  136. [14:48:47] <pnhChris> hey there
  137. [14:48:53] <drewinthehead> it's quiet in here today ... i think everyone must have that friday feeling
  138. [14:49:05] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  139. [14:52:57] <pnhChris> yeah... i'm feeling it too
  140. [14:53:08] <pnhChris> but i think i'm gonna be bombarded by mail and calls today
  141. [15:00:36] <drewinthehead> i've just looked at http://microformats.org/about/ for the first time in a long while
  142. [15:01:35] <drewinthehead> i don't think it really explains microformats to a total newbie, although it does put forward lots of important principals
  143. [15:01:37] <pnhChris> yeah? wheels spinning on what can be changed?
  144. [15:01:42] <pnhChris> yeah
  145. [15:02:07] <drewinthehead> sure ... not one to find fault without offering to help ;)
  146. [15:02:09] <pnhChris> came up a week or two ago.. i thought we needed one simple 'transform' highlighted
  147. [15:02:41] <pnhChris> though I didn't have time to chase it more then that, and I don't think anyone else did either
  148. [15:02:49] <drewinthehead> it's like it's missing its first paragraph
  149. [15:02:53] <pnhChris> yeah
  150. [15:02:57] <pnhChris> or a first illustration
  151. [15:03:04] * bear42 (n=bear@c-71-230-109-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  152. [15:03:17] <pnhChris> old contact info markup -> new contact info markup
  153. [15:03:22] <pnhChris> or something simple and obvious
  154. [15:03:35] <pnhChris> that just shows its "just" html
  155. [15:04:05] <pnhChris> that was my take at least
  156. [15:04:59] <drewinthehead> "Microformats are a way of attaching extra meaning to the information published on a web page. This extra semantic richness works alongside the information already presented, and can be used for the benefit of people and computers." -- or something roughly like that
  157. [15:05:51] <tantek> drew - add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/what-are-microformats
  158. [15:06:30] <drewinthehead> and something practical -- "This is mostly done through adding special pre-defined names to the class attribute of existing XHTML markup."
  159. [15:06:35] <drewinthehead> tantek - will do
  160. [15:11:58] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7174 * DrewMcLellan * (+458) Added suggestion from Drew McLellan
  161. [15:12:56] <drewinthehead> done :)
  162. [15:13:02] <tantek> thanks!
  163. [15:13:36] <tantek> consider also adding something on why you think microformats are *useful* here: http://microformats.org/wiki/what-can-you-do-with-microformats
  164. [15:14:00] <tantek> pnhChris, perhaps you can add your thought about a "simple transform" to that page as well
  165. [15:14:28] * pnhChris nods
  166. [15:16:40] <drewinthehead> my primary interest in microformats today is to find a way to stop the incessant flow of wretched "Join my network on LinkedIn!" emails
  167. [15:19:16] * drewinthehead is a grumpy old man
  168. [15:20:35] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  169. [15:20:36] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  170. [15:30:27] <DanC> I hate the architecture that LinkedIn uses, but it has enough useful content that I participate regardless.
  171. [15:36:47] <drewinthehead> what do you use it for, DanC?
  172. [15:38:01] <DanC> getting in touch with former colleagues; e.g. I found out my old manager from Convex is editor of the Linux Journal
  173. [15:38:13] <DanC> and reflecting on professional goals and such
  174. [15:39:31] <drewinthehead> do you find it adds value above what could be brought by a distributed system?
  175. [15:41:59] <DanC> I'd like to see a distributed system that provided comparable value. But technology alone won't do it. It takes some pushing. Also, the access control issues are non-trivial. I don't know if people would be happy to put the same info in google-visible-space.
  176. [15:42:49] <tantek> drew, I wanted to also point you to this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring
  177. [15:43:22] <tantek> given your writings on the subject, I very much encourage you to edit and expand what is on that page (most of which I wrote in a quick pass)
  178. [15:44:14] <drewinthehead> on the subject of names?
  179. [15:44:45] <tantek> on the subject of adding hCards markup to existing contact info on pages
  180. [15:45:12] <drewinthehead> ok, i'll give it some attention
  181. [15:46:11] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  182. [15:46:46] <drewinthehead> DanC - i think one of the big advantages of a centralised system, in the context for human behaviour, is that it encourages people to post information
  183. [15:47:17] <tantek> drew, I think that is simply a matter of the user-interface
  184. [15:47:28] <tantek> not whether the backend data is centralized or decentralized
  185. [15:47:42] <drewinthehead> a distributed system relies on the individual to seek the infrastructure required to publish
  186. [15:47:57] <tantek> if there was a UI for WordPress that looked like LinkedIn (or Friendster or MySpace etc.), then it would get a lot more use as well
  187. [15:47:58] <DanC> it does help to have some sort of market-maker; the technorati tags stuff shows that the data doesn't have to be centralized, though.
  188. [15:48:05] <drewinthehead> i guess it depends at what level the distribution occurs
  189. [15:48:57] <tantek> and part of this isn't about encouraging people to publish - people are already doing that on blogs more and more
  190. [15:49:10] <tantek> but rather to tap into those existing publishing trends
  191. [15:49:12] <tantek> and connect them
  192. [15:49:52] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  193. [15:50:40] <DanC> linkedin also provides a referall service, where if I'm connected to A, and A is connected to B, but I'm not connected to B, I can ask A to relay a request to B. I've never used that, though. And it's not clear to me that it's any better than plain old email.
  194. [15:52:01] <drewinthehead> on the publishing point, my perception is that there are significantly more people (e.g. in the business word) who would happy maintain a profile on something like LinkedIn than would ever entertain the idea (have the desire for, or feel the need) to publish a blog or personal site
  195. [15:52:11] <drewinthehead> LinkedIn also has endorsements, doesn't it?
  196. [15:52:24] <drewinthehead> XFN+hReview? :)
  197. [15:52:34] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
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  199. [15:53:14] <drewinthehead> or event XFN+hCalendar+hReview
  200. [15:53:29] <drewinthehead> 'even', rather
  201. [15:55:15] <DanC> really, drewinthehead? The only reason I think people prefer LinkedIn for maintaining a profile is UI stuff. People don't traditionally outsource maintenance of their resume.
  202. [15:56:10] <DanC> UI stuff meaning... currently, you have to be a geek to figure out the benefits of having your own domain (a la phone number portability).
  203. [15:56:55] * briansuda also points to claimID.com
  204. [15:57:58] * DanC doesn't get claimID; what the world chooses to believe about you is not, ultimately, up to you
  205. [15:59:06] <DanC> "ClaimID is about letting you have some say in what search engines say about you." huh? how does it affect google search results?
  206. [15:59:34] <briansuda> i agree, but i think they are attempting to pull together alot of those distributed profiles all under one roof, the problem is, you get to pick what's in and what's out
  207. [16:00:10] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  208. [16:00:26] <DanC> in what way do I get to pick? how does claimID help me actually influence what searchers learn about me?
  209. [16:00:35] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  210. [16:01:15] <drewinthehead> I think they intend for you to link to your claimID page with your name, so that it becomes more likely to show up
  211. [16:01:17] <DanC> and why should I outsource this to claimid? Why not just build a reputation the old fashion way (a la http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ and http://dm93.org/byDan )
  212. [16:01:56] <briansuda> not so much about searches, i was referring to the comment before that, you choose what goes into your profile (aka none of the bad stuff), people will still believe what they want - it is not an independent list of links, it is biased
  213. [16:02:12] <tantek> DanC, you can build your own "claimID" like thing on your own website using XFN identity consolidation: http://gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation
  214. [16:02:41] <tantek> claimID is for folks who don't have the facilities to do it themselves on their own site
  215. [16:03:16] * briansuda agrees, same as the old geocities pages
  216. [16:03:23] <tantek> right
  217. [16:03:32] <drewinthehead> same as linkedin could become ;)
  218. [16:03:33] <DanC> right... "UI issues" for lack of a better term. If claimID were really good guys, they'd be offering to do this under my domain rather than theirs (using proxying or some such)
  219. [16:03:55] <drewinthehead> like the old Blogger system
  220. [16:04:03] <DanC> does anybody know which of the popular blog hosts -- GMTA --
  221. [16:04:22] <DanC> -- which of the popular blogging hosts will sell me a blog.dm93.org service?
  222. [16:06:35] <tantek> yes, the old blogger system of letting you use blogger on your own site was very smart
  223. [16:06:48] <tantek> that's a model that all these other services could learn from
  224. [16:07:46] <tantek> e.g. I would love if I could use Flickr as a UI to my own photos on http://tantek.com/photos (not a real URL) rather than on flickr.com, or in addition to.
  225. [16:08:04] <DanC> I'd definitely pay for that.
  226. [16:08:52] <pnhChris> flickr api?
  227. [16:10:21] <pnhChris> manage images with their interface, get the benefits of communtiy and other services (buying prints).. and then use the API for a presentation on your own end
  228. [16:10:26] * pnhChris shrugs
  229. [16:12:03] <DanC> PITA factor too high. I just want to pay and have it work ;-)
  230. [16:12:20] <pnhChris> well.. i didn't say you had to write the app
  231. [16:12:33] <pnhChris> just that would be a good direction to take :P
  232. [16:12:34] <pnhChris> for someone
  233. [16:16:54] * drewinthehead reflects that poor old Thomas Vander Wal is going to be turning up in all sorts of strange hCard-related documents in search results
  234. [16:18:15] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  235. [16:23:34] * markp (n=markp@adsl-150-136-71.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  236. [16:25:39] <tantek> why is that drew?
  237. [16:25:46] <pnhChris> you think he's gonna have a problem? how about this kid: http://dwb.heraldonline.com/24hour/weird/story/3325458p-12248062c.html
  238. [16:27:00] <AdamCraven> haha, 6500 dong
  239. [16:27:08] <AdamCraven> very good
  240. [16:28:12] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  241. [16:28:29] <drewinthehead> tantek, TVW is becoming a common example for a two-word surname. I noticed it in hcard-authoring, have used it on my site as well, and he's in the test suite for implied-n optimisation :)
  242. [16:28:39] <tantek> heh, yes, i see
  243. [16:29:06] <drewinthehead> must try to see if i can find some known fictional characters with awkward names
  244. [16:29:08] <trovster> Fined �0.30
  245. [16:30:39] <tantek> drew, let's stick to only real world examples please
  246. [16:31:46] <drewinthehead> lol :)
  247. [16:32:06] <pnhChris> Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen
  248. [16:32:08] <pnhChris> :P
  249. [16:33:08] <drewinthehead> http://allinthehead.com/demo/hcard/best-guess.php?name=Hieronymus+Karl+Frederick+Baron+von+Munchausen
  250. [16:34:11] <pnhChris> that doesn't look too good ;)
  251. [16:36:10] * drewinthehead mutters something about 80/20
  252. [16:36:38] <pnhChris> i didn't say i expected it to look right
  253. [16:37:21] <pnhChris> just first "von" fictional name i thought of
  254. [16:41:09] * markp_ (n=markp@adsl-150-136-71.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  255. [16:41:34] <drewinthehead> i was thinking of slapping a JSON interface on the best-guess machine, just for fun
  256. [16:42:27] <tantek> sure, why not?
  257. [16:42:47] <briansuda> pnhChris, it's not fictional
  258. [16:45:42] <pnhChris> well, no, i guess technically not
  259. [16:45:45] <pnhChris> tough it came to mind as such
  260. [16:46:08] <pnhChris> movie on my brain / shelves
  261. [16:46:36] <trovster> http://kitchen.technorati.com/event/search/multipack why is that giving 'event' for http://www.multipack.co.uk/ ?
  262. [16:47:54] <drewinthehead> trovster: you've got a big 'next event' box right in the middle of the page
  263. [16:48:05] <drewinthehead> with a vevent inside it
  264. [16:48:19] <tantek> trovster, that means it was unable to find the event "summary"
  265. [16:48:52] * tantek (n=tantek@ool-182d0540.dyn.optonline.net) Quit ()
  266. [16:49:12] <trovster> I repinged it today, and it's taking 'Summary' from <dt class="fli vcard_summary">Event:</dt>
  267. [16:50:25] <trovster> And 'Location' is taking from <dt class="vcard_location vcard_adr">Location:</dt>
  268. [16:50:41] <drewinthehead> as an aside, i'm not sure underscores are safe in class names
  269. [16:50:47] <trovster> Sure they are.
  270. [16:51:01] <drewinthehead> although that may be an CSS issue, more than anything
  271. [16:51:18] <drewinthehead> i'm trying to remember which browser it effects
  272. [16:51:30] <drewinthehead> affects :)
  273. [16:51:31] <trovster> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-name
  274. [16:51:45] <drewinthehead> oh sure, they're valid, but not real-world safe
  275. [16:51:58] <trovster> That's not the issue here, the issue is parsing
  276. [16:52:14] <drewinthehead> agreed, an aside, as i said :)
  277. [16:54:00] <drewinthehead> so if you were to change those class names and reping, does that stop the false-positives?
  278. [16:54:13] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  279. [16:54:15] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  280. [16:54:41] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  281. [16:54:42] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  282. [16:55:49] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  283. [16:56:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  284. [16:56:10] <trovster> I've never had a problem with underscores in id/class names, and they're valid in HTML and CSS, so, it's not me, it's the parser
  285. [16:57:13] * bear42 (n=bear@c-71-230-109-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  286. [16:57:16] <drewinthehead> sure, it's the parser. totally agree
  287. [16:57:54] <drewinthehead> don't mind me, i'm well old skool ... i've got browser bugs from years back still ingrained in my memory
  288. [16:58:05] <trovster> heh, fair enough.
  289. [16:58:09] <briansuda> have you tried to download that event? it downloads it correctly, but has an error (not well formed)
  290. [16:58:26] <briansuda> it doesn't look like feeds.technorati is TIDY'ing the input
  291. [16:58:52] <trovster> Also, on http://microformats.org/wiki/hCalendar#Examples_in_the_wild 'dtstart/dtend are implemented on em element Tom Armitage June 23, 2006' (em and span)
  292. [16:59:05] <trovster> However, 'This specification recommends that such <abbr> elements be used for the following iCalendar properties: DTSTART' -- recommends, not requires.
  293. [16:59:50] <trovster> Where is it getting 8th July from!
  294. [16:59:57] <briansuda> right, if it is an ABBR then parsers should look to the @title attribute, otherwise just use the node value, if that node-value is valid ISO, then there is nothing to worry about
  295. [17:00:57] <trovster> error 4: not well-formed (invalid token) -> This Page Is Valid HTML 4.01 Strict!
  296. [17:01:23] <briansuda> don't shoot the messanger
  297. [17:01:32] <trovster> I ain't :)
  298. [17:03:04] <trovster> Changed to abbr, and repinged, but it don't like the vcard_summary class still, how annoying.
  299. [17:05:00] <briansuda> they are just doing a free-text search, so "event" or "Summary" can be anywhere in the page, NOT just in the microformat portion... then if microformats are present it is displayed the search results
  300. [17:06:05] <drewinthehead> knocking off time for me ... back in an hour or so
  301. [17:06:15] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
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  307. [17:29:41] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  308. [17:29:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  314. [17:54:59] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-66-65-149-11.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  315. [17:55:00] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  316. [17:55:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  318. [17:58:12] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
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  322. [18:05:44] * tantek_ (n=tantek@cpe-66-65-138-185.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  324. [18:07:41] <briansuda> kingryan, i can't seem to find the wiki page about hCard singleton properties... does anyone have the link? i want to make a test case
  325. [18:08:38] <hober> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties
  326. [18:10:40] <briansuda> that's the one! thanks hober
  327. [18:11:13] * markp_ (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  328. [18:11:58] <hober> np
  329. [18:12:05] * badd (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) has joined #microformats
  330. [18:19:46] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-66-65-149-11.nyc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  331. [18:37:46] * tantek (n=tantek@mail.amscan.org) has joined #microformats
  332. [18:37:47] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  333. [18:38:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  334. [18:43:04] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  335. [18:49:54] * dc__ is now known as dc_food
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  343. [19:41:21] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  344. [19:43:15] <cgriego> ?learn cgriego is a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  345. [19:43:17] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  346. [19:45:11] <Jedi_> ?learn Jedi_ is Jedi <http://Jedi.org/> (+08:00) and working at Creative Commons Taiwan <http://creativecommons.org.tw/>
  347. [19:45:12] <jibot> Jedi_ is Jedi <http://Jedi.org/> (+08:00) and working at Creative Commons Taiwan <http://creativecommons.org.tw/>
  348. [20:03:35] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthehead
  349. [20:03:35] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthehead_
  350. [20:03:52] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  351. [20:06:17] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ()
  352. [20:08:29] * Atamido wants to register www.atami.do but doesn't see a way to register a domain in the Dominican Republic. :P
  353. [20:10:27] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@66.238.27.98.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  354. [20:13:02] <Jedi_> Atamido: http://rwgusa.net/com_do.htm # I randomly googled.
  355. [20:16:10] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  356. [20:16:10] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  357. [20:17:57] <Atamido> Jedi_: I don't want .com.do ;)
  358. [20:18:20] <Jedi_> Atamido: it seems that you can choose .do from drop-down menu at that page
  359. [20:19:05] <Atamido> Only the first drop down, not the second.
  360. [20:19:25] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  361. [20:23:34] <Jedi_> ok
  362. [20:23:39] <Jedi_> //pat
  363. [20:23:40] <Jedi_> :p
  364. [20:28:12] * markp_ (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  365. [20:38:19] * dc_food is now known as dc_
  366. [20:48:43] <Hixie> the most common syntax error in HTML documents according to a survey of about a billion documents is... missing doctype (about 50%).
  367. [20:48:46] <Hixie> -_-
  368. [20:49:16] <Hixie> the most common non-DOCTYPE-related syntax error in HTML documents in the same survey is... using the "/>" syntax.
  369. [20:50:10] <Hixie> nearly one tenth of all documents surveyed had a <style> element not in the <head>
  370. [20:50:13] <Hixie> how depressing
  371. [20:51:01] <Hixie> 5% of all files surveyed had an </embed> end-tag
  372. [20:51:10] <Hixie> i thought there _was_ no </embed> end-tag?!
  373. [20:56:47] * briansuda thinks embed was an invention of netscape to get multimedia in the page
  374. [20:57:18] <Hixie> i don't mean the <embed> start tag
  375. [20:57:23] <Hixie> which was indeed a netscape invention
  376. [20:57:42] <briansuda> Hixie, are these new results/data or just a rehash of the older results?
  377. [20:57:55] <Hixie> new data
  378. [20:58:17] <Hixie> (not good data, either)
  379. [20:58:20] <briansuda> can we expect another big write-up then?
  380. [20:58:37] <Hixie> i have every intention of making further write-ups
  381. [20:58:43] <Hixie> when they'll actually be done, i have no idea!
  382. [20:58:52] <briansuda> still it should be interesting to see.
  383. [20:58:58] <Hixie> yup
  384. [20:59:54] <Hixie> mostly this time i had two things in mind to check: what format i should use for the <t>/<time>/<date>/<datetime> element (whatever we call it), and whether or not the html5 parser spec works
  385. [21:00:26] <briansuda> is there any consensus?
  386. [21:00:33] <briansuda> on the DateTime that is
  387. [21:01:12] <Hixie> "HH:MM" seems to be used on 2% of pages that have a <date>, <time>, <datetime>, class="date", class="time", or class="datetime" element.
  388. [21:01:27] <Hixie> next most common is "00-00-0000, 00:00 AA"
  389. [21:01:40] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  390. [21:01:45] <Hixie> followed by "00:00 AA", "00-00-0000, 00:00", and "0.00.0000, 00:00"
  391. [21:02:03] <briansuda> is there anyway to tell if that is MM-DD-YYYY or DD-MM-YYYY?
  392. [21:02:06] <Hixie> no
  393. [21:03:08] <briansuda> what about if you put those into three possible buckets? one unknown, one where the first two digits are greater than 12, and one where the second set of digits is over 12.
  394. [21:03:30] <Hixie> yeah, i'm looking at that now
  395. [21:03:40] <briansuda> atleast you MIGHT be able to get some ratio between two and then use those percentage on the larger unknown pool
  396. [21:03:43] <Hixie> trying to distinguish them from "00:00" is the hard part
  397. [21:05:23] * dc_ is now known as dc_movie
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  400. [21:08:06] <Hixie> what's interesting is that only 0.1% of pages used the form "Aaa, 00 Aaa, 00:00"
  401. [21:08:11] <Hixie> (2% used 00:00)
  402. [21:09:14] <Hixie> and only 0.09% used "Aaaaa 00, 0000"
  403. [21:09:33] <Hixie> although i guess that's bad data
  404. [21:09:39] <Hixie> since other months have different lengths
  405. [21:09:48] * Hixie adjusts the way he analyses this
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  408. [21:28:01] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  409. [21:28:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  417. [21:57:02] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  418. [21:59:44] <pnhChris> so who has a handy feed with hcard or hcalendar markup in the post content?
  419. [22:00:24] <pnhChris> mr. t does
  420. [22:00:39] <tantek> Looks like the new beta.plazes.com supports hCard for wifi hotspots and user profiles
  421. [22:00:39] <pnhChris> for @media
  422. [22:00:51] <tantek> pnhChris: http://tantek.com/updates.atom
  423. [22:01:09] * pnhChris starts playing with those NNW style sheets
  424. [22:01:36] <tantek> although to be specific, the hCalendar events from my Events Roll are actually in the field *as* entries themselves, rather than "in" the post content
  425. [22:01:49] <pnhChris> not sure background-color:yellow is going to win any fans though :P
  426. [22:02:06] <pnhChris> your blog had at least one event
  427. [22:02:16] <pnhChris> from an older post
  428. [22:02:22] <tantek> possible yes
  429. [22:03:49] <pnhChris> i'll dummy up a test feed in a bit.. just needed soemthing quick to do a gut check with
  430. [22:05:37] <drewinthehead> pnhChris: eventful.com should be a good source
  431. [22:06:41] <drewinthehead> e.g. http://eventful.com/atom/events?q=web&l=london&t=next+week&c=
  432. [22:07:23] <drewinthehead> i keep forgetting how good eventful's search is
  433. [22:08:13] <pnhChris> oh, that was an hreview i found on tanteks blog
  434. [22:08:29] <pnhChris> ... of an event with no hcalendar ! :P
  435. [22:09:34] <pnhChris> and yes.. thanks for the eventful pointer
  436. [22:09:40] <pnhChris> looks good
  437. [22:14:26] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.231-81.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  438. [22:14:27] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  439. [22:20:56] <pnhChris> looks like ma.gnolia added some microid support
  440. [22:22:12] <pnhChris> <div class="vcard microid-a5e386d23018d97e0b91ba3c9f2020916563c9b1">
  441. [22:22:12] <pnhChris> <h1><img alt="placenamehere" class="photo" src="/avatars/1263_75.gif" />
  442. [22:22:12] <pnhChris> <span class="fn">Chris Casciano</span> (placenamehere)
  443. [22:22:13] <pnhChris> </h1>
  444. [22:22:27] <pnhChris> http://ma.gnolia.com/blog/2006/07/06/a-small-update && http://ma.gnolia.com/people/placenamehere
  445. [22:27:03] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  446. [22:27:46] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@66.238.27.98.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  447. [22:29:41] <pnhChris> too bad you can't generate links with generated content
  448. [22:42:26] <tantek> pnhChris, I'll put some more hCards in my feed for you soon -- I'm reviewing some businesses I patronized over the past couple of days here in NYC.
  449. [22:46:18] <pnhChris> great
  450. [22:54:08] <pnhChris> hmmm
  451. [22:55:40] <pnhChris> there aren't any combined hcard/hcalendar extraction facilities out there, are there? or are they all explictly one or the other (e.g. technorati)
  452. [22:56:24] <tantek> what would such a combined extraction facility DO?
  453. [22:56:39] <pnhChris> give you whatevers in the page...
  454. [22:56:52] <tantek> that's called HTTP ;)
  455. [22:57:02] <tantek> GET in particular :P
  456. [22:57:31] <pnhChris> to allow for an interface where one doesn't have to pick what xsl proxy to send the file to
  457. [22:57:53] <tantek> defining something in terms of a negative still doesn't define it
  458. [22:58:11] <tantek> and you have to define it before it can exist ;)
  459. [23:00:29] <pnhChris> i just want to create a single bookmarklet like device that someone can hit to pull whatever microformat data is on a page rather then one for each data type which is more typical
  460. [23:00:30] <bewest> hmm
  461. [23:00:48] <pnhChris> though I can just write the logic to say "which ones are here" before passing it off to the parser
  462. [23:01:43] <pnhChris> .. otherwise I need to have my presentation / alert that microformats exist convey which ones are there
  463. [23:01:55] <tantek> pnhChris, why would they "pull whatever microformat data is on the page"? what's the end result that is expected?
  464. [23:01:59] <tantek> how does it benefit the user?
  465. [23:02:05] <pnhChris> so a user doesn't say 'hey theres a microformat here' and try and fail to pull out a hcal
  466. [23:02:25] <tantek> again, defining in terms of negatives - not helpful
  467. [23:02:43] <tantek> what would the *positive* experience of using such a bookmarklet/favelet be?
  468. [23:03:28] * bewest is working on that kind of thing
  469. [23:03:46] <bewest> I call it deduced visualization of semantic markup using interactive interfaces
  470. [23:03:56] <bewest> one interface is one that allows you manage disparate lists of things
  471. [23:03:59] <pnhChris> inside NNW... when reading a feed i'm starting to look at ways to both identify/highlight that hcard and or hcalendar data is in the app.. with the ultimate goal of allowing a user to extract that data if they'd like to import into eithr ical or address book
  472. [23:04:03] <bewest> such as doctors, products et cet...
  473. [23:04:14] <bewest> allows a user to pull out the common things in several lists
  474. [23:04:52] <bewest> another would be something like http://simile.mit.edu/timeline + google finance charts in order to interface with hcalendars et al...
  475. [23:05:09] <bewest> another is putting hcards on a map automatically
  476. [23:05:10] <pnhChris> and in that sitauation i was looking for a clean, though direct way to both identify the items and provide some ui to pull it.. but i don't have a lot of UI options
  477. [23:06:19] <bewest> "pull it"?
  478. [23:06:28] <bewest> what does pulling it do?
  479. [23:06:55] <pnhChris> "allowing a user to extract that data if they'd like to import into eithr ical or address book"
  480. [23:07:43] <bewest> ah
  481. [23:07:46] <pnhChris> extracting it either directly from the entry or pulling it from the web page through a proxy.. dunno. haven't gotten that far yet.. just looking at what my options are both from the parser side and the NNW/frontend side
  482. [23:07:50] <bewest> is it useful in an address book?
  483. [23:08:06] <bewest> that just does more storage
  484. [23:08:19] <pnhChris> if someones hcard is in a feed content area why would it be less useful then in the content of the same post on a web page?
  485. [23:08:50] * tantek (n=tantek@h-68-167-74-227.nycmny83.covad.net) Quit ()
  486. [23:08:52] <pnhChris> not sure i understand your question there
  487. [23:11:50] <bewest> so you are looking to implement something where you copy an hcard off a web page and paste it into your addressbook?
  488. [23:12:13] <pnhChris> just looking to have some visual treatment (via styling of the html in the feed item's content) to identify when a microformat is use (hcard or hcalendar for now) and then looking for the options for how I can let a user act on that
  489. [23:13:17] <bewest> oh
  490. [23:13:22] <pnhChris> no.. i'm not trying to invent a new method of getting the vcard into address book or whatever
  491. [23:13:24] <bewest> were you at barcamp?
  492. [23:13:29] <pnhChris> no
  493. [23:13:45] <bewest> there was a bit of a discussion about that
  494. [23:14:06] <bewest> trying to decide what verbs would commonly apply to a given object... say an hcard
  495. [23:14:17] <bewest> and how you would consistently make that affordance in a UI
  496. [23:15:34] <pnhChris> i'm just looking for a simple solution.. and i'm not writing my own app here... just something via applescript or similar means to let people do with content in feed what they can do now with bookmarklets or something similar...
  497. [23:16:33] <pnhChris> but i figured i'd ask if there were any parsers smarter about the parsing to provide soemthing smarter the "hit this bookmarklet to extract X and this different one to extract Y, and Z...
  498. [23:16:38] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  499. [23:17:36] <pnhChris> i could, and probably will, do more inspection up front, but want to avoid having to shout "i have an hcard here" in order for a user would know what action to take
  500. [23:18:16] <bewest> yeah
  501. [23:18:24] <bewest> well, I think several people are thinking along the same lines
  502. [23:18:31] <bewest> that the interaction with these things is the next stage
  503. [23:18:39] <bewest> it's what I'm interested in :-)
  504. [23:18:39] <kingryan> I just updated the hcalendar creator, can I get some compatibility testing: http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator ?
  505. [23:18:47] <kingryan> esp. winblowz browsers
  506. [23:19:11] <bewest> and I think it'll come in the form of greasemonkey scripts/plugins for now
  507. [23:19:37] <pnhChris> well, like my hatom subscript script I'm not expeciting to wind up with the be all and end all solution.. just something workable that people can look to for ideas or to access that data now
  508. [23:20:03] <pnhChris> but theres no greasemonkey in non-gecko+xul apps
  509. [23:20:31] * pnhChris shrugs and runs off to rustle up dinner
  510. [23:20:38] <bewest> ok..
  511. [23:20:43] <bewest> the other thing that some people were thinking
  512. [23:20:52] <bewest> is that service providers themselves would supply scripts that embed functionality
  513. [23:20:56] <bewest> for instance
  514. [23:21:10] <bewest> you know how google has exported their google map functionality through judicious javascript?
  515. [23:21:15] <bewest> you could do the same thing...
  516. [23:21:29] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  517. [23:21:41] <bewest> you could expose the certain verbs using a javascript API that embeds in an hcard or something
  518. [23:21:45] <bewest> and provides functionality
  519. [23:21:57] <bewest> in the same way that google maps is exported
  520. [23:27:46] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  521. [23:35:14] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats

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