IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

[00:01:43] <qid> that post by Bjoern is awfully depressing
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[00:08:45] <bewest> DanC: out of random curiosity, did you work on the urllib python module in some capacity?
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[00:09:27] * bewest notices a reference to ~connolly
[00:09:30] <bewest> in the docs
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[01:20:14] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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[01:54:56] <tantek_> yes, Bjoern's post made me take pause.
[01:55:01] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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[01:56:22] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[01:59:56] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[03:38:02] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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[05:01:22] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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[07:32:27] * bunnywabbit_ (n=whatever@adsl-84-226-134-162.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
[07:32:30] <bunnywabbit_> hello!
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[07:33:54] * boneill (n=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
[07:33:54] <jibot> boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
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[07:45:05] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
[07:45:06] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
[07:45:08] <McNulty> morning
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[07:50:37] <bunnywabbit_> hi
[08:03:16] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
[08:03:16] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
[08:04:27] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=7502 * StephanieBooth * (+54) Contributors -
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[08:12:08] <mfbot> [[comments-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comments-formats&diff=0&oldid=7503 * StephanieBooth * (+183) Authors -
[08:16:19] <mfbot> [[comments-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comments-formats&diff=0&oldid=7504 * StephanieBooth * (+540) Examples from the wild -
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[08:28:19] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
[08:28:20] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[08:28:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[08:36:52] <bunnywabbit_> tantek!
[08:37:10] <tantek> bunny!
[08:37:26] <bunnywabbit_> :-)
[08:37:31] <bunnywabbit_> I was waiting for you
[08:37:45] <bunnywabbit_> I've decided to tackle this comment microformat problem seriously now
[08:38:17] * trovster has used hatom for comments
[08:38:32] <bunnywabbit_> but I'm not certain I'm doing things right. I sent a message to the discussion list with a problem I have, and I've made a few modifs on the wiki
[08:38:40] <bunnywabbit_> trovster: url for hatom?
[08:38:49] <bunnywabbit_> what have you done to comments with hatom?
[08:38:50] <trovster> /wiki/hatom
[08:38:55] <bunnywabbit_> ok
[08:39:04] <bunnywabbit_> I wonder if there is maybe more than one comment problem
[08:39:19] <bunnywabbit_> because I'd state my comment-problem quite differently than what is done on the comment-problem page
[08:40:54] <McNulty> how would you state the comment problem?
[08:42:28] <bunnywabbit_> mine? well, I'd say the problem is that there is no general way of recognizing or parsing comments on blogs
[08:42:54] <bunnywabbit_> the practical problem we face at cocomment is that we have to write ad hoc code for all the blog engines out there
[08:43:01] <bunnywabbit_> because they all mark up their comments differently
[08:43:15] <bunnywabbit_> so not sure how I'd state that smartly
[08:43:20] <bunnywabbit_> do you see what I mean?
[08:43:37] <trovster> Hence why a MF needs to be implemented, and why I'm using hatom
[08:44:03] <bunnywabbit_> so how are you using hatom for it? I don't see anything about comments in hatom
[08:44:34] <bunnywabbit_> but the comment-problem stated on the wiki is more "how do I track? how do I get notified of new comments?" -- for me, that's a more specific problem
[08:44:37] <bunnywabbit_> or more general
[08:44:44] <bunnywabbit_> depending on how you look at it
[08:44:47] <trovster> Well, you subscribe to the RSS feed
[08:45:03] <bunnywabbit_> not sufficient
[08:45:14] <trovster> Fair enough.
[08:45:56] <mfbot> [[comment-problem-ja]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-problem-ja * IwaiMasaharu * (+1700) 08:04, 18 Jul 2006
[08:46:19] <bunnywabbit_> and I'm not certain, but are even comment rss feeds formatted in such a way it's easy to identify all the different components of the comment?
[08:46:23] <bunnywabbit_> who is IwaiMasaharu?
[08:46:50] <bunnywabbit_> :-)
[08:47:00] <chucker> presumably the Japanese Wiki localizer? ;)
[08:47:07] <bunnywabbit_> oh
[08:47:08] <bunnywabbit_> ok.
[08:47:14] <bunnywabbit_> didn't know how it worked
[08:47:41] <trovster> I've actually only recently installed cocomment, I was bookmarking sites I was commenting on... not great!
[08:47:53] <bunnywabbit_> the bookmarking, or cocomment?
[08:48:01] <trovster> bookmarking.
[08:48:24] <trovster> cocomment is interesting/useful, although annoying that the popup appears each time, requiring me to close it
[08:48:35] <bunnywabbit_> and... don't tell anybody I said this, but keep an eye open for what happens to cocomment these coming days
[08:48:36] <bunnywabbit_> ;-)
[08:48:43] <bunnywabbit_> which popup?
[08:49:09] <trovster> Can't remember what it says, but confirmation of the comment posted to cocomment
[08:49:22] <bunnywabbit_> doesn't that disappear all by itself? it should!
[08:49:28] <bunnywabbit_> what browser/OS are you using?
[08:49:40] <trovster> Oh, it might do, but maybe I'm too quikc.
[08:49:43] <trovster> FF1.5/Win
[08:49:44] <bunnywabbit_> hehe
[08:49:50] <bunnywabbit_> try giving it a few seconds :-)
[08:49:51] <trovster> The three examples of desired behaviours => RSS
[08:50:05] <bunnywabbit_> well, actually
[08:50:16] <bunnywabbit_> if you look at how technorati copes at parsing blog posts
[08:50:27] <bunnywabbit_> it does it through the feeds
[08:50:44] <bunnywabbit_> so would the microformat for comments be a feed?
[08:51:14] <trovster> Again, it could be, and is what I'm doing.
[08:51:18] <bunnywabbit_> ok
[08:51:19] <bunnywabbit_> but
[08:51:20] <bunnywabbit_> again
[08:51:28] <bunnywabbit_> hatom doesn't seem to be designed for comments
[08:51:32] <McNulty> Trovster - does hAtom have specific comment functionality or do you mark up the comments as a feed of their own?
[08:51:34] <bunnywabbit_> how do you do it, then?
[08:52:04] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1514/view
[08:53:13] <McNulty> ah the comments are an hFeed
[08:53:45] <McNulty> that page is extremely thoroughly marked up, well done
[08:54:47] <trovster> the rel="xfn" is missing, but working locally.
[08:55:28] <trovster> There are three hFeeds on that page, I think. Post, comments and sidebar.
[08:56:37] <mfbot> [[comment-problem]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem&diff=0&oldid=7505 * IwaiMasaharu * (+1) fix typo
[09:04:24] <mfbot> [[comment-problem-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=comment-problem-ja&diff=0&oldid=7506 * IwaiMasaharu * (+210) 冒頭部分を訳した
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[09:21:03] <bunnywabbit_> back
[09:21:06] <bunnywabbit_> sorry, lousy connection
[09:22:35] <bunnywabbit_> what exactly is hfeed vs. hatom -- in laybunny's terms?
[09:22:50] <bunnywabbit_> is hatom a kind of hfeed?
[09:22:52] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
[09:22:59] <bunnywabbit_> and what is an hfeed with respect to a feed?
[09:23:19] <McNulty> hFeed is an element inside hAtom
[09:23:37] <bunnywabbit_> er... ok
[09:23:51] <bunnywabbit_> I know what atom is, but how does hAtom relate to atom?
[09:24:11] <bunnywabbit_> what makes it different from atom?
[09:24:14] <trovster> hatom is the wrapper, hFeed is the wrapper for individual entries (one RSS feed)
[09:24:48] <bunnywabbit_> ok
[09:24:52] <trovster> bunnywabbit_: Atom is XML. hAtom is HTML. You write a HTML site with hAtom sprinkled in, then run subscribe to that page via a converting scripting... and you've got an atom feed.
[09:24:52] <McNulty> hAtom is embedded inside HTML
[09:24:56] <bunnywabbit_> so should hFeed go in here? http://microformats.org/wiki/comments-formats#Examples_from_the_wild
[09:25:34] <trovster> Not exactly, they're not in the wild, well not as much as the ones shown on that page (movabletype, wordpresS_)
[09:25:45] <bunnywabbit_> but is it "semantic" to use markup designed for blog posts to mark up comments?
[09:26:33] <bunnywabbit_> so that would be a proposal, then?
[09:26:35] <McNulty> What's the semantic difference between a blog and a linear commenting mechanism?
[09:26:38] <trovster> I think so, you're just creating an RSS feed for comments.
[09:26:43] <bunnywabbit_> author/dispersion
[09:26:54] <bunnywabbit_> topic
[09:27:10] <bunnywabbit_> comments relate to something that can be identified as a blog post or a web page
[09:27:43] <trovster> A proposal, well, I've just used hAtom, in a reasonale way I think, to markup comments. tantek and others higher up the MF chain might have other opinions.
[09:27:59] <bunnywabbit_> ok
[09:28:21] <bunnywabbit_> and we at coComment would have to see if hAtom is sufficient for our needs
[09:28:28] <bunnywabbit_> ie, does it provide all the information we want
[09:28:35] <bunnywabbit_> (I suspect it would, but would have to check)
[09:28:53] <bunnywabbit_> maybe we could start by publishing our collected comments with hAtom?
[09:30:01] <bunnywabbit_> gotta leave now, I'm afraid
[09:30:07] <bunnywabbit_> but will be back later today :-)
[09:30:16] <bunnywabbit_> thanks guys, you've helped me see thing clearer already
[09:30:39] * bunnywabbit_ is now known as bunny_out
[09:34:30] <mfbot> [[User:IwaiMasaharu]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu&diff=0&oldid=7507 * IwaiMasaharu * (+60) add profile
[09:36:12] <mfbot> [[User:IwaiMasaharu]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:IwaiMasaharu&diff=0&oldid=7508 * IwaiMasaharu * (+76) profile -
[09:58:21] <trovster> What is the expected behaviour if more than one vcard is found on the page for the same person.
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[10:05:04] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
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[10:07:02] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[10:12:09] <trovster> hey hey people
[10:23:42] <McNulty> trovster - behaviour for what?
[10:24:17] <trovster> Well, I have links to profiles, with full names, these are vcards. Then the profile has more details on that person, marked up as a vcard
[10:24:28] <McNulty> for exporters I think they should produce a .vcf with multiple vcards in it.
[10:25:00] <trovster> Tails doesn't show the extra information
[10:27:04] <McNulty> the profile is on the same page?
[10:27:09] <trovster> Yes.
[10:27:27] <McNulty> you could a.include the profile info from inside the first card
[10:32:43] <McNulty> What does Tails do, just show one contact with the first set of info?
[10:32:57] <trovster> Yeh.
[10:33:21] <McNulty> That's not great, you'd think it would at least show it as two cards.
[10:33:45] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1515/view
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[10:43:08] <McNulty> trovster - I'm missing where the hCards are for those people?
[10:43:37] <trovster> ctrl+f(vcard) ?
[10:43:40] <trovster> <dl id="member-profile" class="vcard">
[10:43:42] <McNulty> no I see
[10:43:45] <trovster> <div class="information-extras">
[10:43:56] <McNulty> I didn't realise this was an example profile page, is that right?
[10:44:06] <trovster> It is an example...
[10:44:13] <McNulty> this page is /company/team/trevor-morris right
[10:44:22] <trovster> Yes
[10:44:36] <McNulty> what's the benefit of having the links as vcards?
[10:44:45] <McNulty> when they're only ever going to contain names
[10:44:46] <trovster> hmm, it should have an active class on the name
[10:45:13] <McNulty> My Tails sees 2 cards there
[10:45:26] <McNulty> for Trevor
[10:46:19] <McNulty> I suppose it's sensible in that there may be 2 John Smiths
[10:46:45] <trovster> What I can/have done, is remove the vcard list entry on that persons profile
[10:47:54] <trovster> Is the 'note' correct, too. My tails doesn't show it
[10:48:09] <McNulty> you could make the second, more detailed, instance not be a vCard and a.include it from the list?
[10:48:14] <McNulty> oh can't nest A
[10:49:32] <trovster> ;)
[10:50:32] <trovster> ARGH, he new Tails 0.3.1 is wierd, I want my sidebar back :(
[10:51:16] <trovster> And it now doesn't do photo/logo which it did before :(
[11:14:34] * drewinthehead reads the backscroll
[11:14:54] <drewinthehead> a.include is still under debate afaik
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[11:20:49] <drewinthehead> just slung together an hcard parsing service: http://tools.microformatic.dev/help/xhtml/hkit/
[11:21:53] * trovster whistles
[11:27:04] <drewinthehead> oops .. always doing that
[11:27:40] <drewinthehead> http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/hkit/
[11:30:41] <trovster> What's this a.include?
[11:31:13] <trovster> http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/1515/view doesn't quite work, the [0] is incorrect.
[11:31:58] <drewinthehead> yeah, it's not perfect :)
[11:33:16] <drewinthehead> ah, that's an interesting one.
[11:33:29] <drewinthehead> how do I know whether you want me to take the text or the title?
[11:33:51] <trovster> Well, I thought the information for the fn/org is NOT the attribute.
[11:38:47] <trovster> http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern interesting.
[11:39:38] <trovster> As per my page, we're all part of the company, so that could be a global include?
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[11:55:51] <trovster> Heh, tails vs tails export => wierd changes!
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[12:07:23] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[12:08:22] <McNulty> drewinthehead that's quite cool
[12:08:55] <McNulty> trovster - yeah that's right, you can mark up your company name and then point the ORG to it
[12:09:08] <McNulty> it's all still at the proposal stage though
[12:09:23] <drewinthehead> it's running of hKit, which is obviously still very young, and i think i broke a couple of things in refactoring for the a.include pattern
[12:10:00] <drewinthehead> the object include pattern is fine to use .. it's only a.include that's not totally tied down yet
[12:10:17] <McNulty> what do browsers do when they see the object include?
[12:10:49] <drewinthehead> browsers do nothing .. i think safari leaves some weird spacing that you need to tweak with CSS
[12:10:54] <McNulty> right
[12:10:56] <McNulty> that's interesting
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[12:11:22] <drewinthehead> theoretically, a µF aware browser could parse the include
[12:11:38] <McNulty> which might not be the desired behaviour
[12:11:45] <McNulty> i guess you could display:none it
[12:12:38] <trovster> Should I use the anchor or ojbect?
[12:12:48] <trovster> Aha, ojbect, ok
[12:12:50] <drewinthehead> trovster: use object for now :)
[12:13:12] <drewinthehead> hopefully anchor will come online once the accessibility issues have been fully understood
[12:16:18] <McNulty> Do screen readers etc. ignore unknown OBJECT types?
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[12:20:02] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=7509 * Pheuh * (+79) Examples in the wild -
[12:25:09] <trovster> Argh, using object, adblock add it's tab to it!
[12:25:23] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7510 * Pheuh * (+153) Examples in the wild -
[12:27:09] <trovster> drewinthehead: Does your hkit do the object include?
[12:27:22] <drewinthehead> it should, yes
[12:27:31] <trovster> OK, I'll try it!
[12:27:33] <drewinthehead> and a.include, provisionally
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[12:32:28] <trovster> drewinthehead: Interesting, in kinda works, with a few issues.
[12:32:42] <drewinthehead> there are always issues :)
[12:33:25] <trovster> Can I PM you the URL?
[12:34:41] <drewinthehead> i can see it .. it's my server ;)
[12:34:56] <trovster> Oh yeh! hehe :)
[12:35:24] <trovster> As you can see, issue one is the org is taking the title, instead of the value.
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[12:36:36] <trovster> Because 'fn' is required, even for 'org', the 'fn org' value is overriding the 'fn' on the actual vcard. Either way I include the object, either before or after the FN in the main vcard...
[12:36:41] <drewinthehead> you've got multiple FNs going on there
[12:37:03] <drewinthehead> FN is a singleton
[12:39:28] <trovster> It's always taking the <object.include> FN, not based upon order of that vcard...
[12:39:40] <trovster> I want to join the ORG, but because the ORG requires FN...
[12:40:40] <drewinthehead> includes are performed afterwards, which is why it's overriding
[12:40:58] <drewinthehead> technically i think i should only be taking the first i find
[12:41:23] <drewinthehead> you'll need to include the ORG but not the FN
[12:41:24] <trovster> So, I'll put the FN first, then the object.include
[12:41:30] * bunnywabbit_ is now known as bunny_out
[12:41:57] <drewinthehead> the root problem here is that you're ending up with two FNs, which isn't correct
[12:42:07] <trovster> Correct, but ORG requires FN...
[12:42:31] <drewinthehead> an ORG card requires FN to be the same value, yes
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[12:42:57] <drewinthehead> but a personal card only wants the ORG value not the ORG card's FN value
[12:43:07] <drewinthehead> so don't import the entire ORG card, just part of it
[12:43:08] <trovster> So, maybe what needs to be done, if ORG and FN are the same, that only the ORG is filled in.
[12:43:37] <McNulty> if ORG and FN are the same then the card represents an organisation
[12:43:51] <McNulty> A personal card can still have ORG and a different FN
[12:44:04] <trovster> McNulty: Yes, we're not quite discussing that.
[12:44:22] <trovster> I'm including an implied ORG (with 'fn org') in to another vcard with FN.
[12:44:46] <drewinthehead> but you're making it an ORG card by including the FN from the ORG
[12:44:53] <drewinthehead> that's what McNulty is saying
[12:45:57] <trovster> OK, look now?
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[12:49:14] <drewinthehead> that's gone a little funky
[12:50:09] <drewinthehead> you still have two FNs
[12:50:21] <drewinthehead> one has the include object inside it, the next has the name
[12:54:34] <trovster> well, it's lost the FN totally now
[12:54:55] <drewinthehead> can't blame it, personally ;)
[12:55:37] <drewinthehead> behaviour is likely to be unpredictable if the hCard is iffy
[12:56:04] <trovster> Is the hCard iffy?
[12:56:17] <drewinthehead> turtley
[12:56:58] <drewinthehead> have you cleared up the two FNs?
[12:57:10] <trovster> I think so, yes.
[12:57:59] <drewinthehead> ok, then that looks like a bug. you win a prize :)
[12:58:10] <trovster> Ace, what do I win?
[12:59:34] <trovster> This is way too hacky, breaks tails and probably loads of other parsers, and requires to much extra markup. So, I'm going back to what I had.
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[13:01:02] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
[13:01:09] <drewinthehead> tails probably doesn't understand include-pattern then
[13:01:24] <drewinthehead> i'm putting together a test from your markup and i'll see if i can track it down
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[13:05:12] <McNulty> tails breaks VERY easily
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[13:07:52] <drewinthehead> hmm ... it's this new fn=n thing that's screwing me over
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[13:11:20] <drewinthehead> it's this new rule that says if there's no N and implied-N doesn't apply, then FN === "FN N" and therefore FN can contain N's sub-properties
[13:11:27] <drewinthehead> i thought i had this licked
[13:11:31] <drewinthehead> but, no
[13:12:48] <drewinthehead> writing parsers is for grown-ups. where's my ball?
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[13:22:34] * trovster throws a ball...
[13:23:55] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
[13:24:30] <jibot> Vissud2 is a programmer from KC. He currently blogs at http://www.shanebrady.com and http://www.hellfood.com. His wife Kelly has a much better blog at http://www.kellygarbato.com. He also runs http://www.poblov.com, which needs content and css.
[13:48:57] <drewinthehead> ARGH. no, it was working all along. trovster - you still have two FNs
[13:49:16] <trovster> ... I did change it back, you know.
[13:49:29] <drewinthehead> you have "fn org" in there
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[13:50:02] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[13:50:06] <trovster> <h1><a href="/" rel="home me" class="fn url" accesskey="1"><span id="creation" class="org">Creation</span></a></h1> - that's what I did have
[13:50:48] <McNulty> can I see the URL you're talking about?
[13:51:05] <trovster> Urm.
[13:51:16] <trovster> I can paste the source, but I've changed the markup back.
[13:51:33] <McNulty> never mind then
[13:52:11] <trovster> Basically that <h1> and then an <object class="include" data="#creation"> inside another vcard
[13:53:03] <McNulty> that should work then
[13:53:06] <McNulty> er I think
[13:54:12] * McNulty is amused by hotcaptcha.com
[13:55:40] <drewinthehead> trovster: did you see my PM? (not sure this version of colloquy is handling them correctly)
[13:55:51] <trovster> Nope, I didn't see a pm
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[13:59:17] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
[14:00:34] <drewinthehead> trovster: you've got an instance of this:
[14:00:43] <drewinthehead> <dd class="fn">Leigh Scott</dd
[14:00:55] <drewinthehead> and then further down, you've got this:
[14:01:10] <drewinthehead> <strong class="fn org">Creation</strong>
[14:01:21] <drewinthehead> that second example should just be ORG, not FN ORG
[14:02:08] <trovster> Damn, he's the only profile which does that ;0
[14:02:48] <drewinthehead> (isn't Leigh a female name?)
[14:03:08] <trovster> Nope.
[14:03:29] <McNulty> You're getting confused because of Vivienne Leigh ;-)
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[14:04:20] <drewinthehead> i thought Lee was the common male spelling
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[14:04:36] <trovster> Same ;)
[14:04:49] <trovster> It's funny listening to him explaining the email address on the phone
[14:05:49] <trovster> http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/1517/view
[14:05:49] <trovster> http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/1516/view
[14:05:52] <trovster> ACE :D
[14:06:19] <McNulty> the fn of the ORG vCard is a bit off
[14:06:27] <drewinthehead> yeah
[14:06:38] <trovster> ...explain...?
[14:06:40] <drewinthehead> i need to research the rules on that ... it's taking the title
[14:06:50] <McNulty> "Back to the homepage of Creation"
[14:06:57] <trovster> Oh yes, I thought you meant the HTML.
[14:06:59] <McNulty> that's not the full name of the organisation
[14:07:08] * McNulty hasn't looked at the HTML
[14:07:23] <McNulty> aaah it's taking the @title? Pain
[14:07:50] <McNulty> maybe put a <span> inside the <a>
[14:08:29] <drewinthehead> i think it's my error
[14:08:46] <trovster> McNulty: Adding the strong is not ideal, I'm not adding another element!
[14:08:52] <drewinthehead> there's no reason why i should be taking one value for ORG and another for FN when they're on the same element
[14:09:35] <trovster> They're not on the same element now, that's the point (but same result before!)
[14:10:04] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I think you should only take the title from ABBR
[14:10:14] <McNulty> from a quick look at the spec
[14:10:56] <drewinthehead> and never from anchors?
[14:11:22] <McNulty> If an A element is used it must be treated as follows:
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[14:11:24] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
[14:11:33] <McNulty> for the PHOTO property [... blah ...]
[14:11:44] <McNulty> for other properties, the element's content is the value of the property
[14:12:38] <McNulty> http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard#Human_vs._Machine_readable
[14:13:16] <drewinthehead> ah, ok
[14:14:25] <drewinthehead> hmm
[14:14:54] <drewinthehead> are A and ABBR the only elements with @title?
[14:16:44] <drewinthehead> trovster: http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://paste.css-standards.org/1516/view
[14:16:51] <chucker> the title attribute exists for virtually all body elements, if that's what you're asking
[14:17:08] <McNulty> nearly everything can have @title
[14:17:18] <drewinthehead> really? arse.
[14:17:53] <trovster> Super smashing great!
[14:18:45] <trovster> Do you reckon I should add the vcard back to the list of the active person?
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[14:21:12] <drewinthehead> it's up to you really
[14:21:25] <drewinthehead> i'm not a great advocate of tiny hCards personally
[14:21:53] <McNulty> they're not that useful when it's just a name, eh?
[14:22:19] * dustym (n=dustym@71-11-241-51.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
[14:22:20] * trovster removes $team_array[$i]['class'][] = 'vcard';
[14:22:34] <drewinthehead> i guess they can be if they link to a full hCard
[14:22:55] <drewinthehead> otherwise the data isn't identifiable as a name
[14:23:03] <drewinthehead> but i still don't like them much
[14:23:15] <drewinthehead> it's not rational.
[14:25:17] <csarven> is there are format to handle conversations? say speaker1, speakers2, .. speakern, moderator.... ?
[14:25:52] <drewinthehead> tantek covers that in some detail in one of his presentations
[14:26:57] <csarven> know the name of the presentation?
[14:27:22] <drewinthehead> one sec .. got it here
[14:27:32] <csarven> im not speaking of cite, blockquote inside an ol
[14:27:43] <drewinthehead> it's S5 which consistently causes my computer to hang
[14:27:56] <csarven> but rather classnames
[14:29:19] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I think using appropriate @rels is a better way of saying 'this is a person' than making an hCard with little info in it surely
[14:30:03] <drewinthehead> http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/
[14:30:21] <drewinthehead> loss of power here ... about to vanish ;)
[14:30:29] <trovster> McNulty: What rel do you recommend?
[14:31:13] * McNulty is trying to think of one
[14:31:16] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
[14:31:29] <McNulty> colleage?
[14:32:40] <trovster> rel="met colleage co-worker" ?
[14:34:02] <McNulty> dunno ;-P
[14:34:58] <csarven> drewinthehead thats presentation doesn't outline a microformat for conversations
[14:35:12] <csarven> hmm gone
[14:37:19] <McNulty> What about the CITE/OL/BLOCKQUOTE example?
[14:38:39] <csarven> im not speaking of HTML elements. rather classnames of sorts. for instance; speaker1, speaker2, .. moderator
[14:38:54] <McNulty> Ah, I'm not aware of any
[14:39:15] <McNulty> microformats should use elements first and classes as a last resort though, IMO
[14:42:33] <csarven> ok, however there should be a way to identify (or even group) speakers
[14:44:28] <McNulty> sure
[14:44:39] <McNulty> maybe the @rel in the citation links might be useful?
[14:44:47] <McNulty> or as you say, just make up some classes
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[15:06:04] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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[15:13:52] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
[15:14:44] <sreynen> csarven, you might want to look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-examples
[15:15:16] <sreynen> and http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-formats and http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-brainstorming
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[15:34:15] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[15:34:30] <mfbot> [[chat-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7511 * ScottReynen * (+742) Added brainstorming comments
[15:40:42] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[15:40:42] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
[15:47:21] <drewinthehead> lost power at work .. sorry to duck out in the middle of a conversation :)
[15:49:30] <pnhChris> don't even talk like that
[15:49:50] <pnhChris> losing power... not today!
[15:50:16] <drewinthehead> i wish i knew why S5 doesn't work for me :(
[15:50:19] * pnhChris hides the thermometers
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[15:50:49] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
[15:50:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
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[15:58:32] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
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[17:02:17] <dglazkov> back from vacation!
[17:02:29] <csarven> whats the proper format to a username at microformats wiki?
[17:02:47] <csarven> it returns invalid for my nick
[17:03:29] <trovster> Isn't it like any annoying Wiki?
[17:03:32] <trovster> CamalCase?
[17:03:54] <dglazkov> mediawiki, yep
[17:04:09] <dglazkov> I mean, MediaWiki
[17:04:11] <dglazkov> :)
[17:05:17] <csarven> the other nicks don't seem to be in that format
[17:05:32] <dglazkov> which ones?
[17:05:44] <csarven> ah.. nm i see now
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[17:10:19] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7512 * Csarven * (+41) People on irc -
[17:11:55] <mfbot> [[User:Csarven]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Csarven * Csarven * (+72)
[17:11:58] <csarven> yay
[17:19:40] <csarven> ?def csarven is Sarven Capadisli can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[17:19:40] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[17:19:57] <dglazkov> welcome Sarven!
[17:20:04] <csarven> ahoy ahoy
[17:20:22] * trovster slaps csarven around a bit with a large trout
[17:21:03] <csarven> hey, don't i know you from somewhere?
[17:21:17] <trovster> I think, out of all the channels I'm, I've met more people IRL in this than all the others... (ignoring the channel I'm in for a group which meets up specifically!)
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[17:30:19] <Phae> uh
[17:30:22] <Phae> okay. good.
[17:30:36] <drewinthehead> welcome
[17:30:39] <Phae> Hey drew.
[17:30:49] <Phae> <-- Frances
[17:31:03] <drewinthehead> hi frances :)
[17:31:06] <Phae> chanserv was doing some lying.
[17:31:11] <Phae> So I was confused.
[17:35:42] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7513 * Phae * (+35) People on irc -
[17:36:10] <Phae> mm.. smrt.
[17:37:39] * amanuelPB (n=amanuel@dsl-250.niagara.com) has joined #microformats
[17:37:40] <jibot> amanuelPB is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
[17:38:00] <drewinthehead> trovster: so did you get sorted with your hCards in the end?
[17:38:07] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[17:38:08] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[17:38:27] <trovster> drewinthehead: Hmm, dunno. Your script works in grabbing the correct information, it seems.
[17:38:29] <amanuelPB> hey all
[17:38:45] <drewinthehead> hey amanuelPB
[17:38:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[17:39:11] <drewinthehead> did you abandon the includes, trovster
[17:39:12] <drewinthehead> ?
[17:39:23] <trovster> No, I think it's using the includes...
[17:40:07] <drewinthehead> and it's working with my script?
[17:41:23] <drewinthehead> if so that's worthy of some kind of code dance.
[17:41:41] <trovster> Let me upload all the changes I've made.
[17:43:30] <trovster> Don't suppose you know a good generic PHP-based gravatar caching system?
[17:44:01] <drewinthehead> i've written one of my own ... but hit a problem on the last stage
[17:44:42] <drewinthehead> if memory serves, i couldn't tell what format the image was in
[17:45:15] <drewinthehead> so i could serve it fine and let the browser figure that out, but that made me feel dirty
[17:46:32] <trovster> Ace, it looks like it's working... (check ya logs)
[17:48:02] <drewinthehead> looking good.
[17:48:08] * drewinthehead does a code dance
[17:48:28] <Phae> heh
[17:49:38] <trovster> drewinthehead :D
[17:50:05] <bewest> a code dance?
[17:50:06] <trovster> Go to the URL team/ then click the names in the middle..
[17:50:31] <Phae> I believe it looks something like the macarana.
[17:51:37] <drewinthehead> usually it involves spinning around on ones chair whilst doing some kind of action
[17:51:57] <Phae> That just reminds me of those god-awful "quote me happy" ads.
[17:52:11] <drewinthehead> trovster: they're just fragment URLs, right?
[17:52:23] <trovster> Yeh... the section should update, though...
[17:52:52] <drewinthehead> ah, ok, does now .. i think it was cached
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[17:54:25] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[17:54:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
[17:54:48] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7514 * Jlencion * (-220) Examples with some problems - shifting pixel fixed
[17:54:56] <trovster> drewinthehead :D
[17:55:18] <tantek> ?
[17:55:28] <trovster> If you click a few times, then hit back ... :D and if you view tails after you've changed, the vcards are still there.
[17:55:34] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7515 * Jlencion * (+95) Examples - moved shifting pixel back to good list
[17:55:43] <tantek> oh ok
[17:55:47] <trovster> tantek: We've got a nice example of <object class="include" data="id"></object>
[17:56:09] <tantek> trovster, for which format?
[17:56:17] <trovster> hCard
[17:56:22] <tantek> nice
[17:56:28] <trovster> I can PM you an example.
[17:56:42] <tantek> should fixed examples go to "Examples" or "New Examples"
[17:58:01] <tantek> trovster, don't bother, let's stick with just public discussions
[17:58:08] <tantek> and add URLs to the Examples in the WIld
[17:58:24] * drewinthehead is expecting to hear back from Derek Featherstone today about a.include in screen readers (real tests)
[17:59:02] <trovster> It's not in the wild. It's a private URL I'm developing, hence private only.
[17:59:39] <Phae> That's rather cool, drew.
[18:01:32] <drewinthehead> his initial suspicions were that it was going to wreak havoc, but ultimately it's the tests that count
[18:01:45] <Phae> Havoc is a bit severe, probably.
[18:01:57] <trovster> What issues should it cause?
[18:03:37] <drewinthehead> "with the href="#foo" it is likely to be read out as "this page link" and then nothing"
[18:03:50] <drewinthehead> "it would also likely show up in the links list, and be included in the link count when first announced when the page loads"
[18:04:55] <drewinthehead> perhaps havoc is too severe, but those sound like notable usability concerns that we should account for, if the tests prove the assumptions correct
[18:05:10] <Phae> Oh well yeah, I thought you were going to say something worse.
[18:05:26] <Phae> That's probably what jaws'll say.
[18:06:10] <Phae> Is he going to just give you test data results, or make suggestions to fix the issues?
[18:06:49] <hober> It's too bad <a/> doesn't take @disabled
[18:07:06] <drewinthehead> just the results Phae
[18:07:10] <Phae> m'k
[18:08:05] <drewinthehead> the test documents are: http://allinthehead.com/demo/include.html and http://allinthehead.com/demo/include-verbose.html
[18:08:57] <drewinthehead> didn't occur to me to actually ask for suggestions ... i was being, err, 'task driven'.
[18:09:25] <Phae> heh. Well, I guess I was thinking too many steps ahead. Best see what the issues really turn out to be first.
[18:11:34] <drewinthehead> hopefully we'll be able to work around it, as a.include is nice and simple
[18:11:54] <drewinthehead> (plus i've already invested a few hours in parsing it)
[18:14:19] <drewinthehead> i'm on its team.
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[18:20:29] <drewinthehead> pnhChris has ants in his pants.
[18:21:12] <pnhChris> wish there was a way to go headless on my powerbook without sleeping it first :P
[18:21:31] <pnhChris> er
[18:21:50] <pnhChris> i mean... yeah... using only an external monitor
[18:22:43] <pnhChris> whatever.. done moving things like usb hubs around
[18:22:47] <pnhChris> for now :P
[18:24:48] <KevinMarks> you can't do that with detect displays?
[18:25:33] <pnhChris> i can mirror or dual.. but the only way i know how to do it with only the external is to close and wake via usb
[18:25:52] <pnhChris> school me if you know otherwise :)
[18:28:43] * pnhChris wonders where all this currency discussion is headed
[18:29:33] <pnhChris> seems an unusual amount of markup to expect out of an author
[18:31:00] <Phae> I thought that. I think it needs an actual problem it solves to make it useful. I only scan read the discussions on that today though.
[18:32:06] <KevinMarks> if you open System Prefs/Displays and click 'Detect Displays" that should look at what's connected and revert to the last good state for those devices
[18:32:56] <drewinthehead> harping back to my suggestion of a machine to knit the internets, i'd need to know from a knitting pattern how many balls of wool to order from Amazon. so that's one use.
[18:33:07] <Phae> heh
[18:33:33] <Phae> But really you're looking at quantity and a product, rather than just currency alone.
[18:34:10] <drewinthehead> right. as per tantek's point about the recipes
[18:35:31] <Phae> Yeah
[18:35:44] <drewinthehead> 8 oz flour, or whatever
[18:35:55] * drewinthehead doesn't know much about baking
[18:35:59] <Phae> heh
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[18:36:11] <dglazkov> that's rarely the problem
[18:36:24] <dglazkov> in cooking, everything is in cups, tbsps and tsps
[18:36:30] <Phae> Not always.
[18:36:31] <dglazkov> and that's pretty universal, imho
[18:36:32] <drewinthehead> only in US
[18:36:34] <Phae> In the states it is.
[18:36:42] <Phae> Here we randomly mix ounces with grams.
[18:36:54] <Phae> With "pinches". heh
[18:37:02] <drewinthehead> cups are pretty much unused here
[18:37:07] <dglazkov> I don't think so. I have a couple of British cook books, Ukranian and Russian
[18:37:13] <dglazkov> and all use the same convention
[18:37:20] <Phae> No they don't.
[18:37:31] <Phae> Really, I can grab any cook book off my shelves now, and it won't be in cups.
[18:37:34] <dglazkov> ok
[18:37:40] <Phae> We use teaspoons and tablespoons.
[18:38:11] <dglazkov> I am not at home, so I can't confirm. Maybe I was just reading it and not having a problem with it...
[18:38:37] <tantek> what about online recipes?
[18:38:39] <Phae> There are rough equivalents.
[18:38:44] <tantek> instead of looking in books
[18:38:47] <Phae> Online I find mostly in US measurements.
[18:38:57] <Phae> But I find the equivalents out. Or my baking is terrible :)
[18:39:05] <epeus> if you open System Prefs/Displays and click 'Detect Displays" that should look at what's connected and revert to the last good state for those devices
[18:39:08] <dglazkov> but even in US, lots of recipes are package-based
[18:39:11] <Phae> Cups is a bit "vague" as a measurement.
[18:39:21] <Phae> I assume in the States a "cup" is a defined quantity though.
[18:39:25] <Phae> I hope, anyway.
[18:39:28] <dglazkov> yes, it is
[18:39:30] <epeus> UK uses weight, US volume
[18:39:32] <epeus> which is usually convertible
[18:39:47] <Phae> Yeah
[18:39:52] <dglazkov> take one can of crushed tomatoes
[18:40:15] <epeus> a cup is 8 fluid ounces
[18:40:20] <dglazkov> and to be honest with you, these measurements have never been interesting to me
[18:40:25] <dglazkov> or to any good cook
[18:40:25] <Phae> But having said that, if I looked up a recipe in cups, I'd still have to go and check how many grams a cup is.
[18:40:28] <drewinthehead> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database/marzipannedfruitcake_14581.shtml
[18:40:33] <dglazkov> all they do is show approximate proportion
[18:40:39] <Phae> Since cups aren't the kind of measurement tools we have. Our measures use different values.
[18:41:00] <epeus> well, for water or flour it translates into weight OK
[18:41:00] <dglazkov> that's probably different for a beginner.
[18:41:08] <drewinthehead> 100s of examples here, actually. http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/
[18:41:14] <epeus> but for raisins or something, its a volume measurement
[18:41:26] <epeus> and you need to know the density to translate to weight
[18:41:33] <Phae> The cooking bit isn't that interesting. I'm a lousy cake baker anyway. It's more that saying something should be a universal value is fine, but it doesn't actually help me IRL. I'd still have to make a conversion.
[18:42:04] <dglazkov> I think this problem is not very important
[18:42:09] <dglazkov> the conversion problem, that is
[18:42:10] <Phae> not vey :)
[18:42:32] <Phae> I think we got here talking about the relevance, or use, of a currency value.
[18:44:08] <drewinthehead> and in more general terms a method to express units of measurement and values
[18:44:17] <Phae> yeah
[18:44:46] <drewinthehead> sometimes you need a subject there too
[18:44:55] <drewinthehead> 8 ... balls ... wool
[18:45:02] <drewinthehead> 4 ... cups ... flour
[18:45:21] <drewinthehead> 12 ... dollars
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[18:47:54] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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[18:52:13] <KevinMarks> expressing units properly needs dimensional analysis...
[18:52:23] <KevinMarks> tho' google does a decent job
[18:53:28] <KevinMarks> http://www.google.com/search?q=1+cup+in+ml
[18:54:03] <pnhChris> regardless it all seems like a lot of markup to ask someone to author.. but its not my domain so i'm not about to poo poo the idea
[18:54:28] <pnhChris> just a casual observation from the thread so far
[18:55:04] <drewinthehead> come now pnhChris, we know you like to bake. i've heard your sponge cake is to DIE for.
[18:55:15] <Phae> heh
[18:55:19] <pnhChris> :P
[18:55:29] <pnhChris> i meant blogging my recipes
[18:55:34] <pnhChris> or other markup :P
[18:56:12] <trovster> http://www.google.com/search?q=(5+plus+fifteen)+-+10+divided+by+2 google sums are great :D
[18:57:06] <pnhChris> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=three+times+one+minus+one&btnG=Search
[18:58:02] <pnhChris> its pretty good... http://www.google.com/search?q=square%20root%20of%20pi
[19:06:19] <davecardwell> http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=the+speed+of+light+divided+by+the+speed+of+sound+at+sea+level&btnG=Search&meta=
[19:07:10] <pnhChris> i think drew has some serious competition for best guess algorithms :P
[19:09:28] <davecardwell> heh
[19:11:34] <drewinthehead> damn google, cutting into to *everyone's* business! ;)
[19:13:18] <davecardwell> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/07/google_bed_plane/ made me chuckle
[19:13:25] <davecardwell> interesting insight
[19:14:38] <KevinMarks> valleywag had that ages back
[19:14:55] <KevinMarks> and how do they get "armani lovers" from a plane wiht hammocks in?
[19:28:13] <drewinthehead> you guys should register 'pingorati.net' ... i'm always getting that wrong
[19:28:37] <drewinthehead> oh .. you have :)
[19:28:43] <KevinMarks> we have it registered, just nto redirected
[19:29:10] <drewinthehead> pointing it to pingerati.net would be a help for dolts like me
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[20:16:01] <hydromet> hello
[20:16:43] <hydromet> does anyone know if OSF's Cosmo server makes use of microformats? I couldn't grok much about this from simple searches on their site (no mention of hCal when searching on their stie)
[20:16:47] <hydromet> site
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[21:39:35] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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[21:43:01] <tantek> drew, could you add the bbc recipes example to recipe-examples wiki page?
[21:43:13] <drewinthehead> certainly
[21:43:43] <drewinthehead> one day i'll remember to do that without prompting ;)
[21:47:39] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=7516 * DrewMcLellan * (+113) BBC Food -
[21:48:08] * hubick (n=hubick@cs14.pc.athabascau.ca) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[21:48:08] <drewinthehead> i need to go back and flesh that out later.
[21:50:55] * hubick (n=hubick@cs14.pc.athabascau.ca) has joined #microformats
[21:51:53] <hubick> So, I just learned about microformats. I have previously been authoring my web site to use constructs like <div class="section"> in anticipation of XHTML 2, and am wondering if anyone had thought about tracking the XHTML 2 spec with a microformat?
[21:55:47] <tantek> the XHTML2 spec would fail the research step
[21:56:12] <tantek> it is designed more a priori than empirically
[21:57:01] <hubick> I was just thinking something like that could a useful transition mechanism, xhtml 2 being as big a change as it is.
[21:58:04] <bewest> tantek: it's not a priori... one of our conditions is that people have already been publishing this data
[21:58:05] <tantek> xhtml2 is pretty much expected to flop at this point
[21:58:41] <tantek> the use of "transition" assumes too much
[21:59:01] <tantek> bewest, xhtml2 itself is a priori
[21:59:17] <tantek> at least the changes from xhtml1 to xhtml2
[21:59:26] <tantek> and that's all xhtml2 really is anyway
[21:59:30] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=7517 * DrewMcLellan * (+343) BBC Food -
[22:01:03] <tantek> hubick, why do you see any reason/desire to use xhtml2?
[22:01:19] <tantek> how does it help you as a publisher?
[22:01:37] <hubick> I find the cleaner semantic constructs of xhtml2 appealing from a purist perspective :)
[22:01:58] <bewest> tantek: oh; wrong "it"
[22:02:01] <kingryan> more so than html5/webapps?
[22:02:30] <tantek> hubick, *what* cleaner semantic constructs? could you be specific?
[22:02:57] <hubick> I have tended to introduce CSS classes which were more presentational than semantic... I find following xhtml2 type classes helps me with that
[22:03:37] <hubick> ie, nested div class=section, and css on the nesting
[22:04:14] <tantek> hubick, to be clear, they are HTML classes, not CSS classes
[22:04:30] <hubick> sure
[22:04:33] <tantek> presentational class names vs. semantic class names are orthogonal with respect to xhtml1 vs. xhtml2
[22:04:45] <tantek> "xhtml2 type classes" are no different
[22:04:52] <tantek> than xhtml1 classes
[22:05:16] <hubick> is there a guide offering generally useful semantic class names for authors?
[22:05:27] <tantek> yes, there have been some articles written on that
[22:05:34] <tantek> Eric Meyer has some good posts on it
[22:05:39] <tantek> I wrote something short as well
[22:06:16] <hubick> I looked to xhtml2 for guidance on what was coming next, to help me create better xhtml1 today, using things like div class=section seemed like a good idea
[22:06:16] <tantek> see:
[22:06:19] <tantek> http://tantek.com/log/2002/12.html#L20021216t2238
[22:06:38] <pnhChris> i still kinda wish html5 lost h#.. or offered some alternative... that's about the only place where my own markup style would lean towards xhmtl2 over html5
[22:06:47] <tantek> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/07/18/competent-classing
[22:06:54] <tantek> http://tantek.com/log/2004/07.html#classmeaningnotshow
[22:07:07] <hubick> tantek: thanks
[22:07:27] <pnhChris> ... but that's as much of a maintenance desire as it is a semantic one
[22:07:45] <tantek> hubick, it doesn't matter if xhtml2 is "what was coming next" - the question is, how does anything in it help you as a publisher?
[22:08:27] <hubick> would an xhtml2 microformat not enable developers to essentially author xhtml2 semantics inside of xhtml1 documents which are backwards compatible, and thus help with "transition" ?
[22:08:40] <hubick> tantek: I don't know that it does help me
[22:08:57] <tantek> then you have just pointed out why there won't be a transition
[22:09:01] <tantek> that's the point
[22:09:18] <tantek> therefore there is nothing to "help with"
[22:09:57] <tantek> pnhChris, as someone who has been involved in the long drawn out discussions of <hn> vs. <h>, let me just say that I have found cases where both are useful, and that at this point, I'm not sure the additional complexity is worth changing the model.
[22:10:15] <hubick> I personally don't understand why xhtml2 over arbitrary xml and RDF
[22:10:42] <pnhChris> oh. i'm not trying to debate the merits of either here...
[22:11:03] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
[22:11:21] <tantek> hubick, that equivalency does not change the conclusion re: a transition or lack thereof.
[22:11:40] <pnhChris> just sitting in the peanut gallery commenting on you question of why one or the other
[22:12:11] <bewest> Darwin would call it "selective pressure"
[22:12:27] <hubick> I value xhtml2 as a small step on the road toward the semantic web?
[22:12:43] <bewest> sales people would call it erm.. Dickinson something or other
[22:13:59] <tantek> hubick, I'll ask again, if it is actually a *step* *toward* something, then what are the *specific* semantics that you see?
[22:14:12] <tantek> without anything specific, it isn't a step towards anything
[22:14:34] <bewest> and what selective pressure do those steps alleviate
[22:15:01] <tantek> (bewest, certainly that is true, but for the moment, it is not even clear that any decent specifics are introduced)
[22:15:14] <tantek> much less specifics that alleviate selective pressures
[22:15:26] <hubick> I hope that a browser can have a plugin to automatically generate navigation for my sites based on the semantic tagging, freeing me from having to author in navigation myself. I think xhtml2 would enable this better than 1? I don't know, that's pulled out my but.
[22:15:47] <KevinMarks> i think mediawiki does that for you now...
[22:15:58] <pnhChris> it does
[22:16:00] <Hixie> you don't need <h>
[22:16:08] <Hixie> HTML5 does it quite happily with <section> and <h1>
[22:16:31] <tantek> there are features to generate automatic navigation in HTML4, see the section on rel linktypes
[22:16:33] <hubick> section being the primary appeal of xhtml2 to me :)
[22:16:36] <tantek> you can already do much of that now
[22:16:52] <tantek> I'm not sure section adds much more than div
[22:16:56] <tantek> if anything
[22:17:02] <kingryan> also, there are some browsers that will automattically provide navigation
[22:17:05] <kingryan> (see Opera)
[22:17:07] <bewest> tantek: well the specific semantics are the ones driven in explicitly, as opposed to the ones that implicitly make older standards more effective...
[22:17:16] <Hixie> in fact XHTML2 is missing the equivalent of http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#headings which, when the ex-HTML WG eventually tries to write it, will show them why <h> is a bad idea if you also have <h1>.
[22:17:17] <pnhChris> Hixie: the h1 is 'local' to the section (so to speak)? if so great.. my mistake / wrong assumption?
[22:17:21] <Hixie> pet peeve of mine
[22:17:23] <Hixie> but anyway
[22:17:24] <Hixie> pnhChris: yeah
[22:17:28] * pnhChris smiles
[22:17:30] <pnhChris> in that case
[22:17:31] <Hixie> pnhChris: see the section i just cited
[22:17:31] <tantek> bewest, "the ones driven in explicitly" is not a specifc
[22:17:34] <tantek> that is merely an expression
[22:17:39] <tantek> it is meaningless
[22:17:41] <pnhChris> solves my desires
[22:17:55] <pnhChris> where html snippets don't know context
[22:17:59] <pnhChris> but do know sematics
[22:18:00] <Hixie> pnhChris: (all the <hx>-elements become "local" to the <section>, etc)
[22:18:02] <Hixie> anyway
[22:18:16] <bewest> tantek: but there is a high correlation (not an effect as you just pointed out) with people /believing/ that it is specific because of it's immediate, heft, and tangibility
[22:18:25] <pnhChris> thanks for poking in and setting me straight :)
[22:18:32] <Hixie> :-)
[22:18:34] <tantek> bewest, that's not what specific means
[22:18:41] <tantek> if you can't list the specific semantics
[22:18:43] <tantek> then they don't exist
[22:18:59] <tantek> those are generalizations
[22:19:41] <tantek> and Hixie is right about section/h
[22:19:51] <hubick> well, if section doesn't att more than div, why not have *only* div, with classes?
[22:20:03] <tantek> it's still not totally a solved problem in XHTML2, nor is it clear that developers really need it to be solved
[22:20:04] <hubick> s/att/add
[22:20:34] <tantek> hubick, just because section may be worthless doesn't mean that other elements are worthless
[22:20:50] <tantek> it's specific criticism of that element, not a general criticism of all elements
[22:21:47] <Hixie> <section> does add more than <div>, imho, though not _much_ more. <h> is broken, though.
[22:21:50] <hubick> I'm just trying to come up with the best semantic model for my information (aren't we all)... section seemed to offer more than div to me
[22:21:56] <Hixie> HTML5 suggests <section>, <nav>, <aside>, and a couple of others
[22:22:33] <Hixie> hubick: just use the HTML5 tag names as classes for now, they happen to match almost exactly the top-10 most used classes on the web :-)
[22:22:47] <hubick> ok, then how about a microformat for html 5?
[22:22:49] <Hixie> (see http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html )
[22:23:16] <Hixie> hubick: the de-facto web is already "a microformat" for HTML5
[22:23:22] * Hixie hides from tantek's process document
[22:23:52] <Hixie> actually http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html even pretty much follows the mf process, come to think of it
[22:24:02] <hubick> reworded: how about codifying those popular classes into a document which happens to look like a microformat
[22:24:22] <kingryan> or, perhaps, building a profile for them?
[22:24:22] <tantek> sort of a proto-HTML5?
[22:24:32] <sreynen> formalizing semantics makes them more useful
[22:24:37] * kingryan has thought of that before
[22:24:44] <tantek> we could call it hHTML ;)
[22:24:46] <hubick> the problem is, I don't look to the current web for best practice
[22:24:53] <kingryan> I started on a draft xmdp profile of html 5 once
[22:25:04] <sreynen> hubick, why not
[22:25:05] <sreynen> ?
[22:25:07] <KevinMarks> hTML
[22:25:34] <sreynen> if you're trying to communicate, it helps to speak the same language everyone else speaks
[22:25:39] <tantek> What is this TML you speak of?
[22:25:45] <Hixie> hHTML lol
[22:25:49] <hubick> I guess common usage implies the highest semantic interoperability... today... but i was thinking more long term... what would be the "right" classes to use
[22:25:52] <Hixie> i like it
[22:25:57] <tantek> figured you would like that Hixie
[22:26:09] <sreynen> hubick, semantics don't exist in the future
[22:26:09] <Hixie> i'm totally gonna start using that in casual conversation
[22:26:23] <tantek> hubick, essentially you are asking about naming things in an information architecture
[22:26:58] <tantek> which is a whole field in itself
[22:27:14] <tantek> there are some good books on that which provide some guidance
[22:27:16] <Hixie> ontologies!
[22:29:43] <kingryan> hOntology ?
[22:29:52] * bewest starts drooling
[22:29:57] <kingryan> pronounced hontology
[22:30:01] <hubick> Books? Papers? As a web developer who got 4 out of 4 on hixies garbage test ( http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1029713028&count=1 ), I count myself in the top 5% :) You have pretty much taken the answer to my question of "what are good sematnic classes to use" out of my grasp in terms of complexity.
[22:30:12] <bewest> tantek: yeah, what books?
[22:30:25] <bewest> I mean yeah? like what?
[22:30:35] <pnhChris> we need a microformat to designate an object that has jumped the shark.. starting with the letter h
[22:30:38] <Hixie> hauntology!
[22:30:46] <tantek> hubick, markup != IA
[22:31:26] <hubick> tantek: sorry, IA?
[22:31:38] <Hixie> Information Architecture
[22:32:27] <KevinMarks> isn't the microformats process designe to answer that question empircially
[22:32:40] <tantek> for the common cases, yes
[22:33:06] <tantek> but if someone is just publishing random bits of specific data, they need to make up their own class names, and IA helps provide a framework/methodology for that
[22:33:43] <tantek> microformats are when you want to have that data interoperate with other folks who are publishing/consuming that type of data.
[22:33:59] <tantek> if all you want to do is use good class names, that's much easier
[22:35:56] <hubick> I would think having some document present some concrete names to be shared (a microformat) would be better than me choosing my own "good" names out of thin air?
[22:36:07] <tantek> not necessarily
[22:36:15] <tantek> depends on what you are trying to achieve
[22:36:28] <tantek> plus, some amount of "real world" experimentation is a good thing
[22:36:35] <tantek> how else do you think good names are found?
[22:36:40] <hubick> you are worried i would bend my classing to fit the defined classes, rather than using a "native" scheme
[22:36:57] <tantek> you mean an "abstract" scheme?
[22:37:37] <tantek> well certainly using a name to mean something it is not is bad
[22:37:40] <bewest> :-( I just miserably failed hixie's test. I caught "english", and thought "<cite>" was funny but was more concerned with other things that looked... weird
[22:37:51] <tantek> and perhaps worse than using a different name to mean the same thing
[22:38:00] <Hixie> bewest: hah
[22:38:26] <hubick> if I invent my own classes, they will fit my data perfectly, rather than possibly missing out on encoding semantic details by using a predefined but less tailored-to-my-data approach
[22:38:41] * Hixie wonders how many members of the ex-HTML working group would pass that test
[22:38:56] <bewest> common... I imagine most people would catch "english"
[22:38:58] <bewest> pfff
[22:39:26] <Hixie> that's the easy one
[22:39:35] <Hixie> i always put in one thing to make people feel good for finding one thing :-P
[22:41:08] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
[22:41:43] <hubick> Hixie: I thought you were busy defending Microsoft on Slashdot :P
[22:41:59] <tantek> hubick, but only by experience with lots and lots of "your own" classes that fit your data perfectly, is there a chance of figuring out what the predefined but less tailored classes should be
[22:42:06] <Hixie> hah
[22:42:08] * Hixie gave up
[22:42:12] <Hixie> i looked up who that guy was
[22:42:15] <Hixie> turns out he's a troll
[22:42:30] <Hixie> so i figured my time was best spent making snide remarks here :-P
[22:42:41] * hubick lol's
[22:42:47] <tantek> and here I thought you had to look people up on slashdot to see if they were NOT a troll
[22:43:55] <hubick> tantek: sure, but that doesn't give the newb (which I always will be) any *concrete* help
[22:44:20] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[22:44:37] <hubick> are hixies popular class survey results really the most concrete and best ones I can use?
[22:45:06] <Hixie> hey if you know anyone else who analysed over one BILLION files, let me know :-P
[22:45:13] <hubick> i want a magic voice from above to say "do this" :)
[22:45:43] <hubick> s/voice/microformat
[22:45:47] <bewest> I've been trying to get the guys over here at Alexa to produce that kind of report
[22:45:52] <bewest> no luck so far :-(
[22:46:00] <Hixie> oh?
[22:46:02] <Hixie> why not?
[22:46:10] <Hixie> i'd love to see what other people's data looks like
[22:46:18] <Hixie> i have no real way of knowing what the biases in my data sample were
[22:46:19] <bewest> the people who might do that kind of thing smile and nod
[22:46:28] <Hixie> can't you do it?
[22:46:34] <bewest> ahh... the age old question
[22:46:37] * Hixie just went ahead and did it here, he didn't ask for permission or anything
[22:46:43] <bewest> yes
[22:46:46] <Hixie> i figured it'd be fun to do
[22:46:48] <Hixie> it was :-)
[22:47:00] <bewest> but I have more interests and curiosities than time to fulfill them
[22:47:08] <Hixie> it didn't take long
[22:47:08] <bewest> eg, I'm easily distracted
[22:47:12] <bewest> ok ok
[22:47:14] <bewest> I'll do it
[22:47:14] <Hixie> i did it over the christmas holiday
[22:47:15] <bewest> um
[22:47:16] <bewest> this weekend
[22:47:24] <Hixie> :-)
[22:47:31] <bewest> you could do it
[22:47:33] <bewest> on our systems
[22:47:34] <bewest> actually
[22:47:35] <bewest> :-)
[22:47:38] <Hixie> uh huh
[22:47:45] * bewest is serious
[22:47:59] <bewest> our crawl data is open to anyone with a little cash in the wallet
[22:48:04] * Hixie hugs his google tools
[22:48:23] <bewest> then again I'm not sure they'd let google have a peak
[22:48:24] <bewest> but they might
[22:48:25] <bewest> heh
[22:49:16] <kingryan> they could always get a peak at the old stuff at the archive
[22:49:51] <bewest> http://websearch.alexa.com/welcome.html <-- public access to crawl data
[22:50:07] <bewest> </plug>
[22:50:33] <bewest> hmmm /me isn't even sure how to go about that kind of thing
[22:50:59] <hubick> you mean <a class="plug" href="http://websearch.alexa.com/welcome.html">public access to crawl data</a> :P
[22:51:08] <bewest> yes
[22:51:22] <kingryan> shouldn't that be rev="plug" ?
[22:51:39] * Hixie mumbles something about "there is no rev"
[22:51:48] <kingryan> :D
[22:51:54] <bewest> or <a class="plug" rel="employer" href="http://websearch.alexa.com/welcome.html"/>
[22:52:17] <tantek> Hixie, normally I would agree, but I think we found that rev was necessary for VoteLinks.
[22:52:29] <Hixie> rel="vote-yes"
[22:52:30] <Hixie> deal with it
[22:52:32] <Hixie> :-)
[22:53:05] <Hixie> this was discussed on whatwg recently
[22:53:12] <Hixie> the numbers speak for themselves
[22:53:27] <Hixie> "rev" is just confusing authors so much, it's not worth keeping for the semantic purity
[22:53:31] <hubick> <rdf:Description rdf:about=""http://websearch.alexa.com/welcome.html" dc:relation="plug" dc:title="public access to crawl data">
[22:53:50] <Hixie> hubick: you're missing at least two namespace declarations
[22:53:55] <hubick> :(
[22:54:17] <Hixie> :-D
[22:54:17] <tantek> Hixie, it's not semantic purity but more precision.
[22:54:35] <Hixie> tantek: ok, "rev" is just confusing authors so much, it's not worth keeping for the precision.
[22:54:51] <Hixie> tantek: in practice the precision is far lower because people will pick the wrong one about 0.5% of the time.
[22:54:56] <Hixie> iirc
[22:55:06] <Hixie> the numbers are all in the whatwg thread
[22:55:23] <tantek> unfortunately I have to agree with those observations
[22:55:33] <tantek> however, with some guidance it is possible to change the behavior
[22:55:41] <tantek> note that people use rel incorrectly often in practice as well
[22:55:57] <hober> or with some blogging tool including rev'd links in the default theme...
[22:55:59] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
[22:56:03] <kingryan> right, tantek, per Hixie's research authors use both incorrectly
[22:56:15] <tantek> so one guidance is, don't use rel or rev except as specified by microformats or unless you really know what you are doing (i.e. can thoroughly read an internalized and understand the rel-faq)
[22:56:32] <hober> Hixie: did you look at the proportion of @rel appearing on wordpress pages v. any other page?
[22:56:33] <hubick> who cares about confusing authors... i'm an author, and i don't even know what a "pixel" is anymore :P
[22:56:45] <Hixie> tantek: the number of rev=stylesheet links is one symptom of the problem
[22:56:57] <tantek> wow, that must be tool generated
[22:57:00] <Hixie> hober: no, didn't know how to recogrise a wordpress page
[22:57:02] <tantek> that's a no-op AFAIK
[22:57:18] <Hixie> yeah, it's a no-op... and yet it's for something that would otherwise cause an effect
[22:57:29] <tantek> btw
[22:57:31] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
[22:57:33] <Hixie> so you can just imagine how many more errors there'd be for something that has no visible effect (rel=vote vs rev=vote)
[22:57:50] <tantek> yes, that is very much a fair criticism
[22:58:15] <tantek> "there are many more errors for something that has no visible effect"
[22:58:34] <tantek> precisely why invisible metadata is irrelevant
[22:58:39] <tantek> or nearly so
[22:58:44] <kingryan> Hixie: wordpress produces a <meta name="geneartor" value="wordpress 2.0" /> element
[22:59:07] * tantek noticed that Google actually parses <meta name="description"> and displays it in search results.
[22:59:37] <csarven> ya 150chars
[22:59:41] <csarven> upto
[22:59:44] <Hixie> kingryan: interesting
[22:59:55] <tantek> of course that is much better than (re)inventing a proprietary "microsummaries" format
[23:00:01] <bewest> s/geneartor/generator/
[23:00:15] <kingryan> s/@value/@content/
[23:00:20] <Hixie> tantek: i'm sure we'll do that in due course if we haven't already ;-)
[23:00:26] <Hixie> (we=google)
[23:00:33] <kingryan> Hixie: mine, for exampe: "<meta name="generator" content="WordPress 1.5" /> "
[23:00:43] <tantek> Hixie, well, Mozilla beat you to it
[23:00:51] <Hixie> oh, right
[23:00:55] <Hixie> that whole thing
[23:01:00] <tantek> yeah
[23:01:01] <Hixie> well it's not quite the same thing
[23:01:02] <Hixie> but yeah
[23:01:05] <tantek> WTF were they thinking?
[23:01:06] <Hixie> i didn't really like it either
[23:01:14] * bewest is in the dark
[23:01:29] <kingryan> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Microsummaries
[23:01:36] <Hixie> the mozilla world has issues at the moment.
[23:01:46] <Hixie> big... issues.
[23:02:04] <tantek> bewest, don't worry, just another browser manufacturer inventing/implementing a proprietary feature/format all by themselves without any kind of community process/review/feedback AFAIK
[23:02:12] <tantek> of course this time it wasn't Microsoft or Apple
[23:02:23] <hubick> Mozilla has gone full circle :P
[23:02:26] <Hixie> fwiw they were told to go to mf.org several times
[23:02:29] <kingryan> but, tantek, its on a wiki!
[23:02:30] <kingryan> :D
[23:02:56] <hubick> JWZ is gonna join mozilla.com any minute :)
[23:02:59] <tantek> kingryan, yep, that's necessary but not sufficient
[23:03:12] <kingryan> so is a sense of humor ;)
[23:03:33] <bewest> kingryan: oh I thought you were suggesting editing the wiki
[23:03:37] <tantek> wow, first code example in that page is XSLT. i rest my case.
[23:03:54] <Hixie> hah
[23:03:59] <Hixie> anyway, bbl
[23:03:59] <kingryan> well, bewest: that could have some interesting effects
[23:04:18] <kingryan> but I was mostly making fun of how we tout microformats as open because we have a wiki :D
[23:04:20] <tantek> Hixie, I have to agree with you regarding some of the weakness of rel/rev
[23:04:33] <tantek> makes me hesitant to develop any more rel/rev microformats for sure
[23:05:07] <tantek> self-deprectating++
[23:05:24] <tantek> self-deprecating++
[23:05:24] <tantek> even
[23:05:32] <KevinMarks> self-decrementing--
[23:05:45] <kingryan> self--
[23:05:53] <hober> (decf self)
[23:06:24] <kingryan> select self where self < self;
[23:06:28] * jibot (i=jibot@rdns.97.161.62.64.fre.communitycolo.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
[23:06:28] <bewest> gah... next thing you know, MS will unleash another format to go in with their live clipboard thing to match suite with this mozilla thing
[23:06:29] <hubick> So, if someone were to take Hixies common class use survey results, and HTML 5 elements, and XHTML 2 elements, and roll up all the semantics into a common set, and put it in a document propsoing them as class names, and the document contained the words "proposed microformat", what would the reaction be?
[23:06:31] * kingryan doesn't understand what he just typed
[23:07:02] <tantek> hubick, probably not good
[23:07:09] <tantek> that's overdesigned
[23:07:15] <kingryan> hubick: probably most "who cares?" and "I've been doing this for 5 years, those guys are idiots!"
[23:07:21] <tantek> 1. common class use survey results have already gone into HTML5
[23:07:27] <tantek> thus you only need to really look at HTML5
[23:07:36] <hubick> which i am not that familiar with
[23:07:39] <kingryan> hubick: see http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004729.html
[23:07:45] <KevinMarks> looks like jibot didn't like it either
[23:07:48] <tantek> 2. XHTML2 elements have yet to be justified by any kind of research, therefore they would be rejected.
[23:08:08] <kingryan> shit, KevinMarks, I broke jibot?
[23:08:16] <kingryan> sorry jibot!
[23:08:26] <KevinMarks> could be coincidence
[23:08:35] <hubick> tantek: looks like there is no way for me to get around all this reading and learning. what a drag :)
[23:08:46] <tantek> indeed. :)
[23:08:55] <Hixie> other than xforms, XHTML2 has no new elements that aren't either in HTML5, or redundant with elements already in HTML4, as far as i know
[23:09:33] <hubick> my naive outsider view was that html 5 was codifying current practice, and xhtml 2 was looking to puritize the future
[23:10:04] <hubick> i obviously need to reexamine that
[23:10:05] <Hixie> no
[23:10:23] <Hixie> HTML5 is a replacement for XHTML2 that is backwards compatible with HTML4
[23:10:46] <Hixie> HTML5 is actually just one of the two possible serialisations of a language defined by the Web Apps 1.0 spec
[23:11:10] <Hixie> the other serialisation is XHTML5, and it's the XML version of HTML5
[23:11:19] <Hixie> HTML5 is the successor for HTML4
[23:11:24] <Hixie> XHTML5 is the successor for XHTML 1.1
[23:11:36] <hubick> ok, you don't need to waste your time on me, I will go read :)
[23:11:37] <Hixie> and in this world view, XHTML2 is nothing.
[23:11:39] <Hixie> :-)
[23:11:49] <csarven> tantek has there been any examples wrt to formating group conversations? for instance; speaker1, speaker2, moderator, interviwer, interviewee? i did a test here but im not sure if going with a standard ids would be better: http://www.csarven.ca/interview-with-steven-pemberton
[23:12:06] <KevinMarks> there are examples
[23:12:10] <bewest> what the hell happened to 1.1 - 4.9?
[23:12:29] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-examples
[23:12:34] <kingryan> csarven: search the wiki for "chat" stuff
[23:12:59] * hubick is off, thanks to all for the advice and links to reading material
[23:13:08] <KevinMarks> that fits how I did it
[23:13:21] * hubick (n=hubick@cs14.pc.athabascau.ca) Quit ()
[23:13:44] <KevinMarks> or close, I used <q> not <blockquote>
[23:13:44] <KevinMarks> http://yptsupport.blogspot.com/2006/05/ken-yeager-asks-albert-balagso-about.html
[23:14:09] <Hixie> <dl> <dt><cite></cite> <dd><q> </dl> baby
[23:14:12] <csarven> KevinMarks which conversation are you refering to?
[23:14:22] <KevinMarks> not <dl>
[23:14:27] <KevinMarks> that is clearly bollocks
[23:14:32] <hober> ol, since the conversation is ordered in time
[23:14:40] <Hixie> hey i redefined <dl> in HTML5 so that that would work
[23:14:49] <Hixie> <ol> would work too
[23:14:55] <Hixie> and a list of <p>s too
[23:15:05] <Hixie> there are like dozens of ways of marking this up in HTML already
[23:15:06] <Hixie> :-)
[23:15:21] <KevinMarks> <ol ><li><cite>Councilmember Yeager</cite>: <q>And I guess for you Albert on young people's theater, my understanding is it's the same budget recommendation for the organization this year as last year?</q></li>
[23:15:26] * bewest loves <dl>
[23:15:41] <KevinMarks> dl is great fro defining things
[23:16:02] <bewest> anyone suspect that <ul> is abused for purposes better fulfilled by <ol>?
[23:16:18] <KevinMarks> i did <ol style="list-style:disc">
[23:16:24] <KevinMarks> do avoid the numbers
[23:16:31] <hober> Hixie: quoting wa1: "he dl element is inappropriate for marking up dialogue, since dialogue is ordered (each speaker/line pair comes after the next)"
[23:16:35] <hober> :)
[23:16:52] <csarven> i went with <ol><li><cite class="interviewer"></cite><blockquote></blockquote></li>... class="interviewee" ... </ol>
[23:17:04] <Hixie> oh, did someone convince me to change that?
[23:17:05] <Hixie> interesting
[23:17:07] <Hixie> sweet
[23:17:11] <Hixie> well then!
[23:17:13] <Hixie> <ol> it is!
[23:17:14] <Hixie> :-D
[23:17:18] <hober> and you ended up going with ol: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#blockquote0
[23:17:36] <Hixie> good to know there's a spec that unambigously defines this
[23:17:39] <hober> heh
[23:17:45] <Hixie> instead of having to guess, as with HTML4
[23:18:16] * adactio (n=jeremy@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has joined #microformats
[23:19:47] <csarven> is there an existing convention/format to define speakers in a conversation?
[23:19:56] <Hixie> hCard
[23:19:59] <hober> <cite class="vcard"> ...
[23:20:09] <csarven> no
[23:20:17] <csarven> im speaking of grouping the speakers
[23:20:39] <tantek> markup the whole chat as an hCalendar event and list the speakers as ATTENDEES
[23:20:41] <csarven> say .. student1, student2, .. teacher
[23:22:11] <KevinMarks> if you have timestamps (as in IRC) should each line be an event?
[23:23:18] <pnhChris> just imagine the include pattern parsing!
[23:23:52] <KevinMarks> hm, I recognise that example
[23:24:06] <pnhChris> changing attendees attached based on irc joins!
[23:24:11] <pnhChris> :P
[23:26:09] <tantek> depends on what csarven means by "grouping the speakers"
[23:26:16] <tantek> does the group itself have any semantic?
[23:26:27] <tantek> if not, then just use <ul> <li> <li> etc.
[23:30:41] <csarven> i was thinking in lines of having the option to identify a group of speakers based on their title
[23:30:41] * boneill (n=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
[23:30:49] * boneill (n=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
[23:31:00] <csarven> if one likes to highlight only the students for instances
[23:31:43] <tantek> well then you can encode "student" as their *title* in their hCards
[23:31:51] <tantek> or perhaps role
[23:33:18] <csarven> so in a conversation there exists an hCard within an hCalendar?
[23:33:37] <tantek> each speaker is an hCard
[23:33:54] <tantek> whether or not you want to use an hCalendar for the whole thing I think is optional, but it probably makes sense in most cases
[23:34:03] <csarven> i see
[23:35:34] <csarven> thanks you.. ill mess around with this
[23:35:47] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
[23:56:38] * adactio (n=jeremy@81-5-138-228.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) has left #microformats
[23:57:38] <bewest> tantek: you mentioned some books on ontology... do you have any recommendations?
[23:58:08] <tantek> not necessarily ontology
[23:58:13] <tantek> IA in particular
[23:58:26] <tantek> which touches on aspects of taxonomy/ontology, but is much more than that
[23:59:25] <KevinMarks> get those hReviews up, tantek
[23:59:38] <tantek> the two I'm thinking of are by Kelly Goto, and Christina Wodtke
[23:59:47] <tantek> I don't remember the titles offhand

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