IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  8. [01:44:24] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  13. [02:02:45] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  14. [02:13:01] <mfbot> [[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=7993 * Tantek * (+578) added Markdown proposal for hCalendar
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  38. [04:45:54] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  39. [04:52:54] * Molly (n=Molly@ip68-0-175-195.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  40. [04:53:05] <Molly> hellooo all
  41. [04:56:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  42. [04:56:27] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  45. [05:13:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  46. [05:14:13] <Molly> hi tantek
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  57. [05:59:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  58. [05:59:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  59. [06:02:03] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7994 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Prochaines Etapes -
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  64. [07:16:43] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  65. [07:32:28] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  66. [07:32:29] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  69. [08:03:14] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  70. [08:03:14] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  75. [08:24:32] <mfbot> [[user-interface-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=7995 * ChristopheDucamp * (+699) [fr: sync with user-interface]
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  77. [08:28:29] <mfbot> [[wiki-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7996 * ChristopheDucamp * (+13)
  78. [08:59:30] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  79. [08:59:31] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  82. [09:54:53] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  83. [09:55:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  84. [10:00:04] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
  85. [10:00:05] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  86. [10:00:19] <tantek> hi Phae
  87. [10:00:28] <drewinthehead> hey guys
  88. [10:00:32] <Phae> Good morning.
  89. [10:00:34] <tantek> do you have the URL to that WAI mailing list email about microformats?
  90. [10:00:36] <tantek> hey drew
  91. [10:00:41] <Phae> I'm sure I can locate it.
  92. [10:02:18] <Phae> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/
  93. [10:02:27] <Phae> It's just the interest group list I'm on.
  94. [10:02:51] <Phae> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006JulSep/0130.html particuarly
  95. [10:05:52] <trovster> "span tags with html class names, which worries me when it comes to accessibility." -- hehe
  96. [10:06:55] <Phae> Yeah. Silly.
  97. [10:08:34] <trovster> <dd class="tel"><span class="type">fax cell voice</span><span class="value">345234524234</span></dd> -- why is this not supported/recommended? Is there any documentation saying that?
  98. [10:08:56] <drewinthehead> a little silly in this case, but it's good that people are watching out for potential problems in emerging tech
  99. [10:09:25] <Phae> Oh yeah. But I think that person just went.. omg.. they're doing something different.. it must be bad.
  100. [10:09:32] <Phae> Rather than actually researching what microformats are
  101. [10:10:31] * drewinthehead nods
  102. [10:10:56] <drewinthehead> trovster: you're proposing that type should be a space separated list of types?
  103. [10:11:15] <Phae> And also, it's not like this group isn't made up of plenty of accessibility-type bods.
  104. [10:11:35] <trovster> Well, I'm just discussing how to implement multiple values, I thought you had to do them separately, but he was suggesting the space separated list
  105. [10:13:10] <trovster> <abbr class="type" title="fax cell voice work">Contact me on</abbr> <em class="value">##### #######</em>
  106. [10:17:58] <mfbot> [[xfn-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-fr&diff=0&oldid=7997 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
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  110. [11:49:51] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  114. [12:11:34] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  116. [13:07:04] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  117. [13:07:05] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  118. [13:09:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  119. [13:22:04] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7998 * Dan Champion * (+189) Examples in the wild -
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  123. [13:37:02] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  124. [13:38:03] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  125. [13:38:03] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  129. [14:01:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  130. [14:01:10] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  131. [14:06:38] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  132. [14:06:39] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  133. [14:19:46] <drewinthehead> quiet today ... are we all microformatted out? :)
  134. [14:22:15] <trovster> I'm just totally bored. The questions I asked earlier today just faded in to the void
  135. [14:22:23] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  136. [14:22:23] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  137. [14:22:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  138. [14:22:27] <pnhChris> its just been a looooooong week
  139. [14:22:45] <pnhChris> hopefully i can take a break and 'recharge' a bit this weekend
  140. [14:23:39] <pnhChris> cause i might wind up with some play time next week
  141. [14:26:45] <drewinthehead> yes, this week has been busy
  142. [14:27:43] <pnhChris> still adjusting to the new office?
  143. [14:28:21] <pnhChris> or are you starting to settle in and feel like you work there
  144. [14:30:11] <drewinthehead> still adjusting ... it's a big place
  145. [14:30:22] <drewinthehead> i'm used to working in very very small companies
  146. [14:30:33] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  147. [14:37:24] <pnhChris> one of the things i need to do is put that hatom2atom proxy up on another site or two and then post the code somewhere
  148. [14:44:28] <drewinthehead> i've got 101 things i want to do, but most of them hinge on hKit, so i really ought to spend my time on that
  149. [14:44:47] <drewinthehead> codify all this week's new hCard rules ;)
  150. [14:46:45] <trovster> hReview!
  151. [14:47:13] <pnhChris> meh
  152. [14:47:25] <pnhChris> (only cause its not that useful to me)
  153. [14:48:37] <drewinthehead> yes, hReview is right up there
  154. [14:48:48] <drewinthehead> plus author detection for hCard
  155. [15:02:04] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  156. [15:02:04] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  157. [15:03:45] <McNulty> Am I right that class="vcard fn" is not allowed?
  158. [15:04:12] <briansuda> correct
  159. [15:04:31] <McNulty> bah, means I have to add in a bunch of <spans>
  160. [15:04:42] <McNulty> I only have people's names
  161. [15:04:59] <trovster> McNulty: Maybe no reason for the vcard then?
  162. [15:05:12] <McNulty> well... probably
  163. [15:05:37] <McNulty> <a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com">Ciaran McNulty</a>
  164. [15:05:42] <McNulty> had hoped it could be
  165. [15:05:54] <McNulty> <a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com" class="vcard url fn">Ciaran McNulty</a>
  166. [15:06:01] <trovster> <em class="vcard"><a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com" class="fn url">Ciaran McNulty</a></em>
  167. [15:06:25] <McNulty> I can't think of anything appropriate to put around the <a>, em isn't right.
  168. [15:06:32] <McNulty> SPAN is probably the corrent 'neutral' tag
  169. [15:06:35] <briansuda> or if it is a list then use <li class="vcard">...</li>
  170. [15:07:12] <McNulty> briansuda - actually that's a very good idea, it probably should be a list
  171. [15:07:37] <McNulty> It's just separated with BRs at the moment
  172. [15:07:42] <trovster> Heh, I thought you'd have got that, if it was appropriate.
  173. [15:07:42] <trovster> ew!
  174. [15:08:02] <McNulty> I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that BR is useless
  175. [15:08:05] * briansuda hopes the semantics police aren't listening
  176. [15:12:39] <dglazkov> it's not useless
  177. [15:13:05] <dglazkov> it's very useful for evil purposes :)
  178. [15:14:40] <McNulty> It doesn't really fit the CSs model either
  179. [15:14:46] <McNulty> the box model
  180. [15:23:30] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  181. [15:24:34] <drewinthehead> time to break from br, McNulty :)
  182. [15:30:49] <dglazkov> actually, are there valid semantic uses of br? Like maybe in poetry?
  183. [15:31:00] <trovster> Yeh, poetry is one people cite.
  184. [15:31:06] <McNulty> in things like code samples too
  185. [15:31:11] <trovster> <pre?.
  186. [15:31:28] <McNulty> I prefer the idea of using the whitespace CSS property and have linebreaks
  187. [15:31:29] <trovster> <pre><code class="php">
  188. [15:31:35] <McNulty> or having PRE, yeah
  189. [15:31:38] <pnhChris> its kinda one of those things that's worthless until you need it
  190. [15:32:37] <McNulty> <PRE> without a fixed-width font is kind of suitable for user-generated stuff
  191. [15:32:51] <McNulty> rather than sticking a BR on the end of the lines
  192. [15:37:09] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  193. [15:39:35] <McNulty> although:
  194. [15:39:38] <McNulty> http://weblog.philringnalda.com/2002/09/25/pre-considered-harmful
  195. [15:41:15] <pnhChris> that can be somewhat mitigated with overflows and max-dimensions
  196. [15:42:26] <McNulty> the forum software I've used the most sets the overflow to scroll for preformatted code, just in case
  197. [15:42:40] <pnhChris> and you don't lose the non-css formatting help
  198. [15:42:44] <trovster> pre {width: 500px; overflow: scroll;}
  199. [15:44:16] <drewinthehead> for PRE, i guess it depends whether the line breaks mean anything to the information you're presenting
  200. [15:44:48] <pnhChris> along with other things like spaces or tabs
  201. [15:45:14] <drewinthehead> CSS is appropriate when the whitespace is merely presentational
  202. [15:45:19] <trovster> No no, spaces/tabs are presentation
  203. [15:45:32] <pnhChris> in some languages trovster
  204. [15:45:32] <drewinthehead> not in python
  205. [15:45:34] <drewinthehead> :)
  206. [15:45:41] <drewinthehead> and not in poetry
  207. [15:45:53] <McNulty> drewinthehead - SOME poetry they are
  208. [15:46:12] <drewinthehead> in poetry it's not about making it look pretty, the rhythm is dictated by the lines
  209. [15:46:14] <trovster> pnhChris, code is preformatted text, hence <pre> element in the HTML to denote structure
  210. [15:46:15] <dglazkov> real-life example, pls
  211. [15:46:19] <dglazkov> :P
  212. [15:48:40] <McNulty> some poems have *very* complex layouts but they're best realised using the box model than using preformatted text
  213. [15:48:49] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
  214. [15:50:53] <drewinthehead> those kinds of poems aren't in the 80%, so i'm not prepared to discuss them ;)
  215. [15:51:04] <trovster> muhahaha
  216. [15:51:19] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
  217. [15:51:20] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  218. [15:51:27] <dglazkov> drewinthehead, good one
  219. [15:51:28] <Phae> 'noon
  220. [15:51:35] <dglazkov> howdy
  221. [15:51:38] <drewinthehead> hello!
  222. [15:51:47] <Phae> chirpy
  223. [15:53:07] * pnhChris wonders if poems are in the 80% of content.. and if not how we've gotten this far into the discussion
  224. [15:53:31] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  225. [15:53:31] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  226. [15:53:39] <Phae> Why are you talking about poetry?
  227. [15:53:53] <pnhChris> cause someone needed a 20% case :P
  228. [15:53:55] <trovster> 80% * 80% ?
  229. [15:54:04] <Phae> oh
  230. [15:54:10] <pnhChris> well
  231. [15:54:19] <pnhChris> i've got to grab lunch and stuff
  232. [15:54:22] <pnhChris> back later
  233. [15:54:30] * pnhChris is now known as pnhLunch
  234. [15:55:06] <drewinthehead> if poetry is the food of music ... no, wait...
  235. [15:55:12] <Phae> heh
  236. [15:56:40] <trovster> http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg24924.html - I thought about addresses.
  237. [15:56:48] <trovster> http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/41306 - 'poetry (a category in which I would place lyrics)' There are plenty of lyrics sites...
  238. [15:58:13] <Phae> What's the problem getting solved?
  239. [15:58:16] * Phae is behind.
  240. [15:58:46] <drewinthehead> i don't think there is one
  241. [15:58:51] <trovster> McNulty was abusing <br/> for a list of names
  242. [15:59:10] <Phae> hehe. abusing. I see.
  243. [15:59:54] * drewinthehead feels poor old McNulty is getting a bad rap
  244. [16:01:55] <Phae> break isn't 100% evil
  245. [16:02:24] <Phae> But for a list of names... maybe.. uh, list?
  246. [16:02:25] <Phae> :)
  247. [16:03:48] <Phae> Oh, btw.. would poetry come under the art category, and isn't there an artwork MF in the process stages?
  248. [16:04:02] <drewinthehead> possibly
  249. [16:04:51] <Phae> "work of art" even. It's new.
  250. [16:07:01] <drewinthehead> oh yes
  251. [16:07:25] <Phae> http://microformats.org/wiki/workofart-brainstorming
  252. [16:07:39] <drewinthehead> hmm .. seems niche
  253. [16:07:39] <Phae> That's the most interesting read on it. I read it a while back, since I'm into art.
  254. [16:07:41] <trovster> work-o-fart?
  255. [16:07:44] <Phae> It is a tad.
  256. [16:07:51] <drewinthehead> (me too, trovster)
  257. [16:08:04] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  258. [16:08:04] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  259. [16:08:13] <Phae> I think I agree in that it doesn't solve any problems. It'd just be nice for cateloging
  260. [16:08:17] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
  261. [16:08:43] <drewinthehead> you'd think the problem could be attacked with hCard, hCalendar and rel-tag
  262. [16:08:48] <Phae> Yeah.
  263. [16:09:00] <Phae> Although it does suggest some useful fields that aren't part of other formats.
  264. [16:10:16] <drewinthehead> yes, but we're not attempting RDF
  265. [16:10:42] <Phae> Yep.
  266. [16:10:52] <Phae> I'm not saying it's a good idea :) I can't see it's use particuarly.
  267. [16:11:13] <drewinthehead> hListing may cover it
  268. [16:11:30] <Phae> oh, I don't think I've seen hListing?
  269. [16:11:54] * Phae reads.
  270. [16:16:06] <drewinthehead> hListing has been a draft for ages ... it's one i'd like to see move forward
  271. [16:16:23] <drewinthehead> but i can't really complain, as i've not contributed to it
  272. [16:16:52] <briansuda> i just noticed that the Harvard Business School is using hCard for their faculty
  273. [16:16:56] <briansuda> http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/dspar/
  274. [16:18:05] <Phae> Yeah, hListing is quite a cool idea.
  275. [16:18:10] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  276. [16:18:37] * DanC wishes for drag-n-drop from http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:SG2 to my pda, via hCalendar
  277. [16:19:30] <drewinthehead> surely that would mean reaching for a mouse, DanC? *shudder* ;)
  278. [16:20:35] <Phae> heh
  279. [16:20:45] <Phae> Well, have fun. I'm going to go home. ciao.
  280. [16:20:49] <drewinthehead> me too
  281. [16:20:49] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) Quit ("Leaving")
  282. [16:20:50] <trovster> drewinthehead: don't you feed your mouse?
  283. [16:21:07] <drewinthehead> no, my mouse is mighty
  284. [16:21:13] <drewinthehead> catchya later.
  285. [16:21:16] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has left #microformats
  286. [16:28:47] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  287. [16:33:00] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  288. [16:40:18] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) has joined #microformats
  289. [16:43:13] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  290. [16:43:26] <alexandermuse> Chris - hola
  291. [16:46:15] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  292. [16:50:30] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  293. [16:53:03] <cgriego_> alexandermuse: howdy
  294. [16:57:44] * tantek wakes up and scrolls up.
  295. [17:01:51] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  296. [17:03:19] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
  297. [17:08:26] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  298. [17:09:50] <tantek> briansuda, could you add that Harvard Business School example to hCard examples in the wild?
  299. [17:10:02] <briansuda> i can
  300. [17:10:18] <tantek> if you could add an estimate of how many hCards they have that would be great too
  301. [17:12:01] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7999 * Brian * (+95) Added Havard Business School
  302. [17:12:15] <briansuda> i think at the moment there are only 3-4
  303. [17:12:26] <tantek> that's a good start, still worth mentioning
  304. [17:12:32] <briansuda> there is a difference between faculty and general teaching staff
  305. [17:12:54] <briansuda> the general staff does not (yet) have hCards. they don't advertise the use yet
  306. [17:13:25] <tantek> i wonder if we can find out who the webmaster is
  307. [17:13:42] * tantek starts an accessibility page to keep track of accessibility mentions and potential issues.
  308. [17:18:52] <mfbot> [[accessibility]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/accessibility * Tantek * (+415) drafted
  309. [17:20:34] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8000 * Tantek * (+19) added accessibility reference
  310. [17:20:47] <tantek> thanks Brian
  311. [17:21:49] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
  312. [17:24:12] * pnhLunch is now known as pnhChris
  313. [17:25:40] <bewest> so I was reading this C# book from O'Reilly last night
  314. [17:25:55] <bewest> they got into this web section
  315. [17:26:01] <bewest> and started using tables for very simple layout
  316. [17:26:33] <bewest> then they built a screen scraper for amazon, but said screen scraping was a poor way to get information
  317. [17:26:52] <bewest> :-(
  318. [17:27:12] <bewest> the author also seemed to think people would be blown away by the "foreach" construct
  319. [17:27:22] <bewest> kept mentioning how new it was for C-like languages
  320. [17:27:33] <tantek> heh
  321. [17:27:44] * tantek still has to look up "foreach" syntax.
  322. [17:28:02] <bewest> really?
  323. [17:28:15] <bewest> it's present in every language I currently use
  324. [17:28:16] * tantek learned C/C++ the old school way.
  325. [17:28:28] * bewest learned C++ first
  326. [17:28:44] <bewest> currently I do php, python, javascript, perl...
  327. [17:28:47] <bewest> all have foreach
  328. [17:29:20] <bewest> meh anyway
  329. [17:29:25] <bewest> I was more saddened at the tables for layout
  330. [17:29:40] <bewest> and the advocacy of namespacing as a necessity
  331. [17:30:10] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=8001 * IwaiMasaharu * (+17) sync: english: 17:20, 4 Aug 2006
  332. [17:30:15] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  333. [17:30:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  334. [17:32:09] <briansuda> tantek, we also have some FUD debunking on the include-pattern page, that might be worth rolling into the accessibility page
  335. [17:33:09] <tantek> yes
  336. [17:33:22] <tantek> or at least point to it from the accessibility page
  337. [17:33:33] <tantek> it is ok to leave it in context on the include-pattern page
  338. [17:33:50] <tantek> we need to wrap up and resolve that accessibility issue with <a class="include">
  339. [17:34:05] <tantek> so that folks (ahem, like Y! Local) can start using it
  340. [17:34:29] <tantek> since some browsers they want to be nice to unfortunately mishandle the object include method
  341. [17:35:36] <briansuda> drewinthehead had passed some test cases along, to some experts, but i don't think he has heard back yet
  342. [17:52:48] <tantek> let's at least document that that has happened
  343. [18:05:48] <tantek> Briansuda, BTW, if the HBS only has like 3-4 hCards, then go ahead and link to them all by fn
  344. [18:06:11] <tantek> from hCard examples in the wild
  345. [18:14:52] <mfbot> [[relpayment-research-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=relpayment-research-fr&diff=0&oldid=8002 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7) Outils qui supportent actuellement RelPayment -
  346. [18:15:23] <kingryan> is christophe around here?
  347. [18:15:41] * kingryan needs to ask him to do a blog post in french about the translation stuff
  348. [18:16:21] <tantek> very good idea kingryan
  349. [18:16:59] <kingryan> it doesn't look like I have his email, either (or, at least, I can't find it)
  350. [18:17:06] <kingryan> does he have a handle/nickname?
  351. [18:18:35] <KevinMarks> lessig is talking about converging OS licenses
  352. [18:18:51] <kingryan> where?
  353. [18:19:02] <kingryan> and why not just ignore most of them? :D
  354. [18:19:10] <KevinMarks> at wikimania
  355. [18:19:14] <kingryan> ah
  356. [18:19:35] <tantek> kingryan, sometimes Christophe is here as "xtof"
  357. [18:19:43] <KevinMarks> he suggests that licenses add clause fro compatible ones eg 'derivatives can be relicensed under these licenses'
  358. [18:19:45] <kingryan> ok, thanks
  359. [18:29:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  360. [18:33:42] <KevinMarks> http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:DV2
  361. [18:33:44] <KevinMarks> hm
  362. [18:37:07] * trovster (n=trovster@host217-42-180-219.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  363. [18:37:08] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  364. [18:47:57] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  365. [18:49:16] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  366. [18:49:16] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  367. [18:49:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  368. [18:55:17] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  369. [18:55:17] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  370. [19:12:50] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  371. [19:12:50] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  372. [19:21:17] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  373. [19:36:21] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  374. [19:54:00] <ajturner_> anyone use a ruby mf parser?
  375. [20:05:05] <KevinMarks> kingryan does
  376. [20:05:35] <ajturner_> curious which ones are good/stable
  377. [20:05:46] <ajturner_> http://trac.labnotes.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/Ruby/MicroformatParser looks pretty extensible
  378. [20:05:49] <ajturner_> but not maintained
  379. [20:09:36] <KevinMarks> wikipedia and semantic web is up now
  380. [20:09:47] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  381. [20:17:07] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewintehhead
  382. [20:17:08] * drewintehhead is now known as drewinthehead_
  383. [20:17:25] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  384. [20:19:19] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  385. [20:20:04] * ajturner_ (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  386. [20:30:40] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  387. [20:57:01] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
  388. [21:00:56] * tantek is curious what people think are the best ways to markup/format FAQs on the wiki.
  389. [21:03:16] <trovster> A list of questions, linking to the fragment identifier of the answer.
  390. [21:03:28] <drewinthehead> we were discussing FAQs a while back ... we fell into two camps: pro and con DL
  391. [21:03:43] <tantek> i'm thinking from a wiki usability standpoint also
  392. [21:03:43] <trovster> The answers marked up with definition list, with the id on the quesiotn
  393. [21:03:54] <KevinMarks> if you use the toc built in and use thw questions as headers, you get that fro free
  394. [21:04:02] * tantek emphasizes: *on the wiki*
  395. [21:04:10] <tantek> right KevinMarks
  396. [21:04:15] <tantek> that's where I'm leading with this
  397. [21:04:30] * tantek wonders if every question should just be an ===
  398. [21:04:31] <KevinMarks> that works for me - questions are usually short enough to be headings
  399. [21:04:39] <tantek> <h3> in wiki speak
  400. [21:04:59] * drewinthehead wonders why every hope for semantic markup has to fly out the window when it comes to wikis ;)
  401. [21:05:23] * tantek wonders that also
  402. [21:05:25] * KevinMarks is listening to mediawiki debate on that
  403. [21:05:53] <tantek> hence why I'm asking now
  404. [21:06:15] <tantek> drew, I'm mixed on using <dl> for Q&A
  405. [21:07:12] <KevinMarks> FAQ's are a fake conversation, often
  406. [21:07:46] <KevinMarks> so the <li><cite></cite><q> model doesn't fit
  407. [21:08:05] <tantek> normally they terminate after each Q&A
  408. [21:08:14] <drewinthehead> for the wiki we have right now, go for the pragmatic approach ... if === makes it work nicely then === isn't so bad
  409. [21:08:17] <tantek> and the Q&As do not have any semantic order
  410. [21:08:56] <tantek> i'm looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq right now
  411. [21:09:07] <tantek> and wanting to change it to use ===
  412. [21:09:19] <tantek> so that the TOC is autogenerated which helps with both accessibility
  413. [21:09:25] <tantek> and providing URLs for each question
  414. [21:09:37] <tantek> which makes it easier to reference when people *ask* FAQs on the list etc.
  415. [21:11:19] <KevinMarks> good idea
  416. [21:13:09] <KevinMarks> markup critique: http://ontoworld.org/index.php/Germany
  417. [21:15:36] <tantek> huh?
  418. [21:28:54] <tantek> ok, lacking other alternative proposals, i'm going with the === technique
  419. [21:28:58] <tantek> for FAQs
  420. [21:29:07] <tantek> we can always reformat later again if someone comes up with something better
  421. [21:29:24] <kingryan> sounds good to me
  422. [21:37:12] * tantek goes to work on hcard-faq...
  423. [21:43:49] * tantek finds an faq with an obsolete answer...
  424. [21:49:30] <ajturner> kingryan - you still around?
  425. [21:52:35] <kingryan> hi ajturner
  426. [21:52:48] <ajturner> hi - rumor has it you've used a ruby mf parser?
  427. [21:52:59] <kingryan> I've written one :D
  428. [21:53:05] <ajturner> I was curious which one and experiences - ah which one?
  429. [21:53:07] <kingryan> using assaf's uformat parser
  430. [21:53:20] <kingryan> which, as you noted is not maintained anymore, he's moved on to http://blog.labnotes.org/2006/07/11/scraping-with-style-scrapi-toolkit-for-ruby/
  431. [21:53:30] <kingryan> but since I'm still using it, I may maintain it
  432. [21:53:41] <ajturner> I'd like to use it for Mapufacture
  433. [21:53:44] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8003 * Tantek * (+51) made it easier to find explicit list of singular properties
  434. [21:53:44] <ajturner> scraping adr/geo
  435. [21:54:12] <tantek> it's not scraping if you're parsing
  436. [21:54:18] <ajturner> ah, ok, scrAPI makes sense
  437. [21:54:23] <tantek> as opposed to regexing
  438. [21:54:32] <ajturner> tantek -true, correction, I want to parse adr/geo
  439. [21:54:45] <ajturner> 'consume'
  440. [21:54:47] <ajturner> yum
  441. [21:54:55] <kingryan> there's a ruby parser written by the guys at reevoo, too
  442. [21:55:04] <tantek> ajturner, it's a commonly expressed that way for (X)HTML
  443. [21:55:10] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-March/003251.html
  444. [21:55:13] <tantek> because so much *has to be* scraped from web pages
  445. [21:55:39] <tantek> part of the point is that with formal parsing rules and semantics we can make it easier for parsing and eliminate need for scraping these data types
  446. [21:55:39] <ajturner> the Revoo parser doesn't do geo/adr
  447. [21:56:40] <kingryan> but it does hcard, so you could extract the geo/adr part from it, no?
  448. [21:56:47] * kingryan hasn't dug into that code lately
  449. [21:57:08] <ajturner> well, what's the exact difference b/w parsing & scraping? are you saying that parsing is just looking at attributes of the dom vs. finding all on in text?
  450. [21:57:36] <tantek> parsing is actually following the rules laid out for how to consume the data
  451. [21:57:43] <ajturner> kingryan - but the labnotes parser looks a lot more flexible
  452. [21:58:13] <tantek> scraping is looking for patterns and using some other, typically flatter/cheaper method for "mostly reliable" extraction of the data
  453. [21:58:24] <tantek> e.g. regexes
  454. [21:58:36] <ajturner> is there a "best-practices" for consuming/producing MF in general on the wiki
  455. [21:59:32] <kingryan> not in general, but there are some specific guides
  456. [21:59:35] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
  457. [21:59:38] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring
  458. [21:59:41] <tantek> which can be generalized
  459. [21:59:44] <tantek> also
  460. [21:59:48] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-parsing
  461. [21:59:51] <tantek> hcalendar-authoring
  462. [21:59:59] <ajturner> I want to also put together Rails MF helpers for making authoring easier in Rails apps
  463. [22:00:42] <ajturner> thx for the wiki links
  464. [22:01:03] <ajturner> so kingryan - you're going to be using the uformatparser from LabNotes?
  465. [22:01:11] <kingryan> I already am
  466. [22:01:28] <ajturner> I mean, continuing to use/maintain in some fashion?
  467. [22:01:29] <kingryan> but the library needs some bugfixes
  468. [22:01:40] <kingryan> I can't make any promises
  469. [22:01:51] <kingryan> have you tried the scrapi version?
  470. [22:02:11] <ajturner> no, I haven't tried one yet - just looked over the options, uformatparser looked the most complete/mature/flexible
  471. [22:02:37] <kingryan> scrapi is the next evolution of uformatparser
  472. [22:02:51] <kingryan> so it can do at least as much, but it has a different api
  473. [22:02:58] <kingryan> and I started before that api came out
  474. [22:16:27] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
  475. [22:48:14] * tantek finds a duplicate FAQ in hcard-faq
  476. [22:48:42] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  477. [22:57:43] <kingryan> I guess a dupe means that it is very frequently asked?
  478. [23:02:32] <tantek> apparently, and hard to find
  479. [23:02:35] <tantek> in the FAQ
  480. [23:02:40] <tantek> even by someone editing the FAQ
  481. [23:05:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=8004 * Tantek * (+1668) reformatted with mediawiki level 3 headings for questions, bits of cleanup, removed a duplicate question
  482. [23:08:48] <mfbot> [[hcard-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=8005 * Tantek * (+2)
  483. [23:10:19] <tantek> ok, done editing hcard-faq
  484. [23:16:23] <KevinMarks> eh?
  485. [23:16:26] <KevinMarks> Can I automatically add GEO from an address when transfoming an hCard to vCard if it is not present?
  486. [23:16:27] <KevinMarks> ? No, an address represents a building which is a polygon, whereas a GEO only represents a single point
  487. [23:16:27] <KevinMarks> [edit]
  488. [23:16:35] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  489. [23:16:41] <KevinMarks> that seems a little silly
  490. [23:26:21] <ajturner> KevinMarks - but seems nice to provide the geo in addition?
  491. [23:26:55] <KevinMarks> exactly
  492. [23:27:05] <ajturner> not everyone has a geocoder handy ;)
  493. [23:27:16] <KevinMarks> I think that answer is wrong and pettifogging
  494. [23:28:46] <ajturner> which answer? mine or the wiki's?
  495. [23:29:48] <dc__> good book
  496. [23:29:53] <dc__> oh.
  497. [23:29:56] <dc__> freaking scorllback
  498. [23:32:35] <tantek> there is a better reason NOT to conflate adr/geo
  499. [23:32:40] <tantek> as kingryan and i found out
  500. [23:33:20] <tantek> geo is the actual current physical location (point) of the item defined by the vCard
  501. [23:33:27] <tantek> adr is just one of many addresses for that item
  502. [23:33:52] <tantek> thus autoconverting an adr to a geo is wrong because the semantics are quite different
  503. [23:34:08] <tantek> providing a wrong geo is worse than providing none
  504. [23:36:23] <bewest> hmmm
  505. [23:36:30] <bewest> I'm not supports real-world practice
  506. [23:36:43] <bewest> erm I'm not sure that proposition supports real-world practice
  507. [23:37:02] <bewest> practically speaking, resolution to a single point is rarely needed
  508. [23:37:31] <bewest> it's typically implicitly understood that "a point" also stands for a given radius around that point
  509. [23:39:00] <KevinMarks> well, say that then, not some bogosity about polygons
  510. [23:39:17] <bewest> KevinMarks: (I'm agreeing with you)
  511. [23:39:32] <KevinMarks> yes, that was to Tantek
  512. [23:40:15] <bewest> the mindshare among publishers that I'm sensing is that the semantics of geo and adr are not /that/ different
  513. [23:40:18] <KevinMarks> my radius extension suggestion was shot down before
  514. [23:40:27] * burntwiretv (n=burntwir@c-71-202-117-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  515. [23:42:37] * burntwiretv (n=burntwir@c-71-202-117-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  516. [23:42:42] <tantek> bewest, the spec is quite clear on this
  517. [23:42:58] <tantek> we're not talking about some generic notion of "geo" here
  518. [23:43:08] <tantek> we're talking about the definition of the "geo" property per RFC2426
  519. [23:43:37] <tantek> and it's quite useful to distinguish actual physical location (with or without radius of interest, whatever, that's a red herring) from addresses
  520. [23:44:12] <tantek> for example, location-based services like Plazes and Dodgeball could easily encode this information semantically correctly in to an hCard geo
  521. [23:44:41] <drewinthehead> an address may not even have a physical equivalent
  522. [23:44:47] <tantek> true
  523. [23:44:49] <drewinthehead> e.g. postal boxes
  524. [23:46:49] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  525. [23:50:23] <KevinMarks> tantek, I'd suggest you put thta in the FAQ
  526. [23:51:01] <KevinMarks> and then ti does make sense fro some kinds of vcards (eg ones for companies or landmarks, not individuals)
  527. [23:52:05] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")

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