IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [01:44:24] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [02:02:45] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [02:13:01] <mfbot>
[[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=7993 * Tantek * (+578) added Markdown proposal for hCalendar
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- [04:45:54] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [04:53:05] <Molly>
hellooo all
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- [04:56:27] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [05:13:54] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [05:14:13] <Molly>
hi tantek
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- [05:59:06] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [06:02:03] <mfbot>
[[media-info-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7994 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Prochaines Etapes -
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- [07:16:43] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:32:29] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [08:03:14] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:24:32] <mfbot>
[[user-interface-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface-fr&diff=0&oldid=7995 * ChristopheDucamp * (+699) [fr: sync with user-interface]
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- [08:28:29] <mfbot>
[[wiki-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7996 * ChristopheDucamp * (+13)
- [08:59:30] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:59:31] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [09:54:53] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [10:00:05] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [10:00:19] <tantek>
hi Phae
- [10:00:28] <drewinthehead>
hey guys
- [10:00:32] <Phae>
Good morning.
- [10:00:34] <tantek>
do you have the URL to that WAI mailing list email about microformats?
- [10:00:36] <tantek>
hey drew
- [10:00:41] <Phae>
I'm sure I can locate it.
- [10:02:18] <Phae>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/
- [10:02:27] <Phae>
It's just the interest group list I'm on.
- [10:02:51] <Phae>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2006JulSep/0130.html particuarly
- [10:05:52] <trovster>
"span tags with html class names, which worries me when it comes to accessibility." -- hehe
- [10:06:55] <Phae>
Yeah. Silly.
- [10:08:34] <trovster>
<dd class="tel"><span class="type">fax cell voice</span><span class="value">345234524234</span></dd> -- why is this not supported/recommended? Is there any documentation saying that?
- [10:08:56] <drewinthehead>
a little silly in this case, but it's good that people are watching out for potential problems in emerging tech
- [10:09:25] <Phae>
Oh yeah. But I think that person just went.. omg.. they're doing something different.. it must be bad.
- [10:09:32] <Phae>
Rather than actually researching what microformats are
- [10:10:31] * drewinthehead nods
- [10:10:56] <drewinthehead>
trovster: you're proposing that type should be a space separated list of types?
- [10:11:15] <Phae>
And also, it's not like this group isn't made up of plenty of accessibility-type bods.
- [10:11:35] <trovster>
Well, I'm just discussing how to implement multiple values, I thought you had to do them separately, but he was suggesting the space separated list
- [10:13:10] <trovster>
<abbr class="type" title="fax cell voice work">Contact me on</abbr> <em class="value">##### #######</em>
- [10:17:58] <mfbot>
[[xfn-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-fr&diff=0&oldid=7997 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
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- [11:49:51] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [12:11:34] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [13:07:05] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [13:22:04] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7998 * Dan Champion * (+189) Examples in the wild -
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- [13:37:02] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [13:38:03] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [14:01:10] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [14:06:38] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:06:39] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [14:19:46] <drewinthehead>
quiet today ... are we all microformatted out? :)
- [14:22:15] <trovster>
I'm just totally bored. The questions I asked earlier today just faded in to the void
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- [14:22:23] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [14:22:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
- [14:22:27] <pnhChris>
its just been a looooooong week
- [14:22:45] <pnhChris>
hopefully i can take a break and 'recharge' a bit this weekend
- [14:23:39] <pnhChris>
cause i might wind up with some play time next week
- [14:26:45] <drewinthehead>
yes, this week has been busy
- [14:27:43] <pnhChris>
still adjusting to the new office?
- [14:28:21] <pnhChris>
or are you starting to settle in and feel like you work there
- [14:30:11] <drewinthehead>
still adjusting ... it's a big place
- [14:30:22] <drewinthehead>
i'm used to working in very very small companies
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- [14:37:24] <pnhChris>
one of the things i need to do is put that hatom2atom proxy up on another site or two and then post the code somewhere
- [14:44:28] <drewinthehead>
i've got 101 things i want to do, but most of them hinge on hKit, so i really ought to spend my time on that
- [14:44:47] <drewinthehead>
codify all this week's new hCard rules ;)
- [14:46:45] <trovster>
hReview!
- [14:47:13] <pnhChris>
meh
- [14:47:25] <pnhChris>
(only cause its not that useful to me)
- [14:48:37] <drewinthehead>
yes, hReview is right up there
- [14:48:48] <drewinthehead>
plus author detection for hCard
- [15:02:04] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:02:04] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [15:03:45] <McNulty>
Am I right that class="vcard fn" is not allowed?
- [15:04:12] <briansuda>
correct
- [15:04:31] <McNulty>
bah, means I have to add in a bunch of <spans>
- [15:04:42] <McNulty>
I only have people's names
- [15:04:59] <trovster>
McNulty: Maybe no reason for the vcard then?
- [15:05:12] <McNulty>
well... probably
- [15:05:37] <McNulty>
<a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com">Ciaran McNulty</a>
- [15:05:42] <McNulty>
had hoped it could be
- [15:05:54] <McNulty>
<a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com" class="vcard url fn">Ciaran McNulty</a>
- [15:06:01] <trovster>
<em class="vcard"><a href="http://ciaranmcnulty.com" class="fn url">Ciaran McNulty</a></em>
- [15:06:25] <McNulty>
I can't think of anything appropriate to put around the <a>, em isn't right.
- [15:06:32] <McNulty>
SPAN is probably the corrent 'neutral' tag
- [15:06:35] <briansuda>
or if it is a list then use <li class="vcard">...</li>
- [15:07:12] <McNulty>
briansuda - actually that's a very good idea, it probably should be a list
- [15:07:37] <McNulty>
It's just separated with BRs at the moment
- [15:07:42] <trovster>
Heh, I thought you'd have got that, if it was appropriate.
- [15:07:42] <trovster>
ew!
- [15:08:02] <McNulty>
I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that BR is useless
- [15:08:05] * briansuda hopes the semantics police aren't listening
- [15:12:39] <dglazkov>
it's not useless
- [15:13:05] <dglazkov>
it's very useful for evil purposes :)
- [15:14:40] <McNulty>
It doesn't really fit the CSs model either
- [15:14:46] <McNulty>
the box model
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- [15:24:34] <drewinthehead>
time to break from br, McNulty :)
- [15:30:49] <dglazkov>
actually, are there valid semantic uses of br? Like maybe in poetry?
- [15:31:00] <trovster>
Yeh, poetry is one people cite.
- [15:31:06] <McNulty>
in things like code samples too
- [15:31:11] <trovster>
<pre?.
- [15:31:28] <McNulty>
I prefer the idea of using the whitespace CSS property and have linebreaks
- [15:31:29] <trovster>
<pre><code class="php">
- [15:31:35] <McNulty>
or having PRE, yeah
- [15:31:38] <pnhChris>
its kinda one of those things that's worthless until you need it
- [15:32:37] <McNulty>
<PRE> without a fixed-width font is kind of suitable for user-generated stuff
- [15:32:51] <McNulty>
rather than sticking a BR on the end of the lines
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- [15:39:35] <McNulty>
although:
- [15:39:38] <McNulty>
http://weblog.philringnalda.com/2002/09/25/pre-considered-harmful
- [15:41:15] <pnhChris>
that can be somewhat mitigated with overflows and max-dimensions
- [15:42:26] <McNulty>
the forum software I've used the most sets the overflow to scroll for preformatted code, just in case
- [15:42:40] <pnhChris>
and you don't lose the non-css formatting help
- [15:42:44] <trovster>
pre {width: 500px; overflow: scroll;}
- [15:44:16] <drewinthehead>
for PRE, i guess it depends whether the line breaks mean anything to the information you're presenting
- [15:44:48] <pnhChris>
along with other things like spaces or tabs
- [15:45:14] <drewinthehead>
CSS is appropriate when the whitespace is merely presentational
- [15:45:19] <trovster>
No no, spaces/tabs are presentation
- [15:45:32] <pnhChris>
in some languages trovster
- [15:45:32] <drewinthehead>
not in python
- [15:45:34] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [15:45:41] <drewinthehead>
and not in poetry
- [15:45:53] <McNulty>
drewinthehead - SOME poetry they are
- [15:46:12] <drewinthehead>
in poetry it's not about making it look pretty, the rhythm is dictated by the lines
- [15:46:14] <trovster>
pnhChris, code is preformatted text, hence <pre> element in the HTML to denote structure
- [15:46:15] <dglazkov>
real-life example, pls
- [15:46:19] <dglazkov>
:P
- [15:48:40] <McNulty>
some poems have *very* complex layouts but they're best realised using the box model than using preformatted text
- [15:48:49] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
- [15:50:53] <drewinthehead>
those kinds of poems aren't in the 80%, so i'm not prepared to discuss them ;)
- [15:51:04] <trovster>
muhahaha
- [15:51:19] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
- [15:51:20] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [15:51:27] <dglazkov>
drewinthehead, good one
- [15:51:28] <Phae>
'noon
- [15:51:35] <dglazkov>
howdy
- [15:51:38] <drewinthehead>
hello!
- [15:51:47] <Phae>
chirpy
- [15:53:07] * pnhChris wonders if poems are in the 80% of content.. and if not how we've gotten this far into the discussion
- [15:53:31] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [15:53:31] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [15:53:39] <Phae>
Why are you talking about poetry?
- [15:53:53] <pnhChris>
cause someone needed a 20% case :P
- [15:53:55] <trovster>
80% * 80% ?
- [15:54:04] <Phae>
oh
- [15:54:10] <pnhChris>
well
- [15:54:19] <pnhChris>
i've got to grab lunch and stuff
- [15:54:22] <pnhChris>
back later
- [15:54:30] * pnhChris is now known as pnhLunch
- [15:55:06] <drewinthehead>
if poetry is the food of music ... no, wait...
- [15:55:12] <Phae>
heh
- [15:56:40] <trovster>
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg24924.html - I thought about addresses.
- [15:56:48] <trovster>
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/41306 - 'poetry (a category in which I would place lyrics)' There are plenty of lyrics sites...
- [15:58:13] <Phae>
What's the problem getting solved?
- [15:58:16] * Phae is behind.
- [15:58:46] <drewinthehead>
i don't think there is one
- [15:58:51] <trovster>
McNulty was abusing <br/> for a list of names
- [15:59:10] <Phae>
hehe. abusing. I see.
- [15:59:54] * drewinthehead feels poor old McNulty is getting a bad rap
- [16:01:55] <Phae>
break isn't 100% evil
- [16:02:24] <Phae>
But for a list of names... maybe.. uh, list?
- [16:02:25] <Phae>
:)
- [16:03:48] <Phae>
Oh, btw.. would poetry come under the art category, and isn't there an artwork MF in the process stages?
- [16:04:02] <drewinthehead>
possibly
- [16:04:51] <Phae>
"work of art" even. It's new.
- [16:07:01] <drewinthehead>
oh yes
- [16:07:25] <Phae>
http://microformats.org/wiki/workofart-brainstorming
- [16:07:39] <drewinthehead>
hmm .. seems niche
- [16:07:39] <Phae>
That's the most interesting read on it. I read it a while back, since I'm into art.
- [16:07:41] <trovster>
work-o-fart?
- [16:07:44] <Phae>
It is a tad.
- [16:07:51] <drewinthehead>
(me too, trovster)
- [16:08:04] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [16:08:04] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
- [16:08:13] <Phae>
I think I agree in that it doesn't solve any problems. It'd just be nice for cateloging
- [16:08:17] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
- [16:08:43] <drewinthehead>
you'd think the problem could be attacked with hCard, hCalendar and rel-tag
- [16:08:48] <Phae>
Yeah.
- [16:09:00] <Phae>
Although it does suggest some useful fields that aren't part of other formats.
- [16:10:16] <drewinthehead>
yes, but we're not attempting RDF
- [16:10:42] <Phae>
Yep.
- [16:10:52] <Phae>
I'm not saying it's a good idea :) I can't see it's use particuarly.
- [16:11:13] <drewinthehead>
hListing may cover it
- [16:11:30] <Phae>
oh, I don't think I've seen hListing?
- [16:11:54] * Phae reads.
- [16:16:06] <drewinthehead>
hListing has been a draft for ages ... it's one i'd like to see move forward
- [16:16:23] <drewinthehead>
but i can't really complain, as i've not contributed to it
- [16:16:52] <briansuda>
i just noticed that the Harvard Business School is using hCard for their faculty
- [16:16:56] <briansuda>
http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/dspar/
- [16:18:05] <Phae>
Yeah, hListing is quite a cool idea.
- [16:18:10] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [16:18:37] * DanC wishes for drag-n-drop from http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:SG2 to my pda, via hCalendar
- [16:19:30] <drewinthehead>
surely that would mean reaching for a mouse, DanC? *shudder* ;)
- [16:20:35] <Phae>
heh
- [16:20:45] <Phae>
Well, have fun. I'm going to go home. ciao.
- [16:20:49] <drewinthehead>
me too
- [16:20:49] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) Quit ("Leaving")
- [16:20:50] <trovster>
drewinthehead: don't you feed your mouse?
- [16:21:07] <drewinthehead>
no, my mouse is mighty
- [16:21:13] <drewinthehead>
catchya later.
- [16:21:16] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has left #microformats
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- [16:43:26] <alexandermuse>
Chris - hola
- [16:46:15] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [16:50:30] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
- [16:53:03] <cgriego_>
alexandermuse: howdy
- [16:57:44] * tantek wakes up and scrolls up.
- [17:01:51] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
- [17:03:19] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
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- [17:09:50] <tantek>
briansuda, could you add that Harvard Business School example to hCard examples in the wild?
- [17:10:02] <briansuda>
i can
- [17:10:18] <tantek>
if you could add an estimate of how many hCards they have that would be great too
- [17:12:01] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7999 * Brian * (+95) Added Havard Business School
- [17:12:15] <briansuda>
i think at the moment there are only 3-4
- [17:12:26] <tantek>
that's a good start, still worth mentioning
- [17:12:32] <briansuda>
there is a difference between faculty and general teaching staff
- [17:12:54] <briansuda>
the general staff does not (yet) have hCards. they don't advertise the use yet
- [17:13:25] <tantek>
i wonder if we can find out who the webmaster is
- [17:13:42] * tantek starts an accessibility page to keep track of accessibility mentions and potential issues.
- [17:18:52] <mfbot>
[[accessibility]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/accessibility * Tantek * (+415) drafted
- [17:20:34] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8000 * Tantek * (+19) added accessibility reference
- [17:20:47] <tantek>
thanks Brian
- [17:21:49] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
- [17:24:12] * pnhLunch is now known as pnhChris
- [17:25:40] <bewest>
so I was reading this C# book from O'Reilly last night
- [17:25:55] <bewest>
they got into this web section
- [17:26:01] <bewest>
and started using tables for very simple layout
- [17:26:33] <bewest>
then they built a screen scraper for amazon, but said screen scraping was a poor way to get information
- [17:26:52] <bewest>
:-(
- [17:27:12] <bewest>
the author also seemed to think people would be blown away by the "foreach" construct
- [17:27:22] <bewest>
kept mentioning how new it was for C-like languages
- [17:27:33] <tantek>
heh
- [17:27:44] * tantek still has to look up "foreach" syntax.
- [17:28:02] <bewest>
really?
- [17:28:15] <bewest>
it's present in every language I currently use
- [17:28:16] * tantek learned C/C++ the old school way.
- [17:28:28] * bewest learned C++ first
- [17:28:44] <bewest>
currently I do php, python, javascript, perl...
- [17:28:47] <bewest>
all have foreach
- [17:29:20] <bewest>
meh anyway
- [17:29:25] <bewest>
I was more saddened at the tables for layout
- [17:29:40] <bewest>
and the advocacy of namespacing as a necessity
- [17:30:10] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=8001 * IwaiMasaharu * (+17) sync: english: 17:20, 4 Aug 2006
- [17:30:15] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:30:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [17:32:09] <briansuda>
tantek, we also have some FUD debunking on the include-pattern page, that might be worth rolling into the accessibility page
- [17:33:09] <tantek>
yes
- [17:33:22] <tantek>
or at least point to it from the accessibility page
- [17:33:33] <tantek>
it is ok to leave it in context on the include-pattern page
- [17:33:50] <tantek>
we need to wrap up and resolve that accessibility issue with <a class="include">
- [17:34:05] <tantek>
so that folks (ahem, like Y! Local) can start using it
- [17:34:29] <tantek>
since some browsers they want to be nice to unfortunately mishandle the object include method
- [17:35:36] <briansuda>
drewinthehead had passed some test cases along, to some experts, but i don't think he has heard back yet
- [17:52:48] <tantek>
let's at least document that that has happened
- [18:05:48] <tantek>
Briansuda, BTW, if the HBS only has like 3-4 hCards, then go ahead and link to them all by fn
- [18:06:11] <tantek>
from hCard examples in the wild
- [18:14:52] <mfbot>
[[relpayment-research-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=relpayment-research-fr&diff=0&oldid=8002 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7) Outils qui supportent actuellement RelPayment -
- [18:15:23] <kingryan>
is christophe around here?
- [18:15:41] * kingryan needs to ask him to do a blog post in french about the translation stuff
- [18:16:21] <tantek>
very good idea kingryan
- [18:16:59] <kingryan>
it doesn't look like I have his email, either (or, at least, I can't find it)
- [18:17:06] <kingryan>
does he have a handle/nickname?
- [18:18:35] <KevinMarks>
lessig is talking about converging OS licenses
- [18:18:51] <kingryan>
where?
- [18:19:02] <kingryan>
and why not just ignore most of them? :D
- [18:19:10] <KevinMarks>
at wikimania
- [18:19:14] <kingryan>
ah
- [18:19:35] <tantek>
kingryan, sometimes Christophe is here as "xtof"
- [18:19:43] <KevinMarks>
he suggests that licenses add clause fro compatible ones eg 'derivatives can be relicensed under these licenses'
- [18:19:45] <kingryan>
ok, thanks
- [18:29:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [18:33:42] <KevinMarks>
http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:DV2
- [18:33:44] <KevinMarks>
hm
- [18:37:07] * trovster (n=trovster@host217-42-180-219.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:37:08] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [18:47:57] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [18:49:16] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:49:16] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [18:49:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [18:55:17] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:55:17] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [19:12:50] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
- [19:12:50] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [19:54:00] <ajturner_>
anyone use a ruby mf parser?
- [20:05:05] <KevinMarks>
kingryan does
- [20:05:35] <ajturner_>
curious which ones are good/stable
- [20:05:46] <ajturner_>
http://trac.labnotes.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/Ruby/MicroformatParser looks pretty extensible
- [20:05:49] <ajturner_>
but not maintained
- [20:09:36] <KevinMarks>
wikipedia and semantic web is up now
- [20:09:47] * drewinthehead_ (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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- [20:20:04] * ajturner_ (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
- [20:30:40] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
- [20:57:01] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
- [21:00:56] * tantek is curious what people think are the best ways to markup/format FAQs on the wiki.
- [21:03:16] <trovster>
A list of questions, linking to the fragment identifier of the answer.
- [21:03:28] <drewinthehead>
we were discussing FAQs a while back ... we fell into two camps: pro and con DL
- [21:03:43] <tantek>
i'm thinking from a wiki usability standpoint also
- [21:03:43] <trovster>
The answers marked up with definition list, with the id on the quesiotn
- [21:03:54] <KevinMarks>
if you use the toc built in and use thw questions as headers, you get that fro free
- [21:04:02] * tantek emphasizes: *on the wiki*
- [21:04:10] <tantek>
right KevinMarks
- [21:04:15] <tantek>
that's where I'm leading with this
- [21:04:30] * tantek wonders if every question should just be an ===
- [21:04:31] <KevinMarks>
that works for me - questions are usually short enough to be headings
- [21:04:39] <tantek>
<h3> in wiki speak
- [21:04:59] * drewinthehead wonders why every hope for semantic markup has to fly out the window when it comes to wikis ;)
- [21:05:23] * tantek wonders that also
- [21:05:25] * KevinMarks is listening to mediawiki debate on that
- [21:05:53] <tantek>
hence why I'm asking now
- [21:06:15] <tantek>
drew, I'm mixed on using <dl> for Q&A
- [21:07:12] <KevinMarks>
FAQ's are a fake conversation, often
- [21:07:46] <KevinMarks>
so the <li><cite></cite><q> model doesn't fit
- [21:08:05] <tantek>
normally they terminate after each Q&A
- [21:08:14] <drewinthehead>
for the wiki we have right now, go for the pragmatic approach ... if === makes it work nicely then === isn't so bad
- [21:08:17] <tantek>
and the Q&As do not have any semantic order
- [21:08:56] <tantek>
i'm looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq right now
- [21:09:07] <tantek>
and wanting to change it to use ===
- [21:09:19] <tantek>
so that the TOC is autogenerated which helps with both accessibility
- [21:09:25] <tantek>
and providing URLs for each question
- [21:09:37] <tantek>
which makes it easier to reference when people *ask* FAQs on the list etc.
- [21:11:19] <KevinMarks>
good idea
- [21:13:09] <KevinMarks>
markup critique: http://ontoworld.org/index.php/Germany
- [21:15:36] <tantek>
huh?
- [21:28:54] <tantek>
ok, lacking other alternative proposals, i'm going with the === technique
- [21:28:58] <tantek>
for FAQs
- [21:29:07] <tantek>
we can always reformat later again if someone comes up with something better
- [21:29:24] <kingryan>
sounds good to me
- [21:37:12] * tantek goes to work on hcard-faq...
- [21:43:49] * tantek finds an faq with an obsolete answer...
- [21:49:30] <ajturner>
kingryan - you still around?
- [21:52:35] <kingryan>
hi ajturner
- [21:52:48] <ajturner>
hi - rumor has it you've used a ruby mf parser?
- [21:52:59] <kingryan>
I've written one :D
- [21:53:05] <ajturner>
I was curious which one and experiences - ah which one?
- [21:53:07] <kingryan>
using assaf's uformat parser
- [21:53:20] <kingryan>
which, as you noted is not maintained anymore, he's moved on to http://blog.labnotes.org/2006/07/11/scraping-with-style-scrapi-toolkit-for-ruby/
- [21:53:30] <kingryan>
but since I'm still using it, I may maintain it
- [21:53:41] <ajturner>
I'd like to use it for Mapufacture
- [21:53:44] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8003 * Tantek * (+51) made it easier to find explicit list of singular properties
- [21:53:44] <ajturner>
scraping adr/geo
- [21:54:12] <tantek>
it's not scraping if you're parsing
- [21:54:18] <ajturner>
ah, ok, scrAPI makes sense
- [21:54:23] <tantek>
as opposed to regexing
- [21:54:32] <ajturner>
tantek -true, correction, I want to parse adr/geo
- [21:54:45] <ajturner>
'consume'
- [21:54:47] <ajturner>
yum
- [21:54:55] <kingryan>
there's a ruby parser written by the guys at reevoo, too
- [21:55:04] <tantek>
ajturner, it's a commonly expressed that way for (X)HTML
- [21:55:10] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-March/003251.html
- [21:55:13] <tantek>
because so much *has to be* scraped from web pages
- [21:55:39] <tantek>
part of the point is that with formal parsing rules and semantics we can make it easier for parsing and eliminate need for scraping these data types
- [21:55:39] <ajturner>
the Revoo parser doesn't do geo/adr
- [21:56:40] <kingryan>
but it does hcard, so you could extract the geo/adr part from it, no?
- [21:56:47] * kingryan hasn't dug into that code lately
- [21:57:08] <ajturner>
well, what's the exact difference b/w parsing & scraping? are you saying that parsing is just looking at attributes of the dom vs. finding all on in text?
- [21:57:36] <tantek>
parsing is actually following the rules laid out for how to consume the data
- [21:57:43] <ajturner>
kingryan - but the labnotes parser looks a lot more flexible
- [21:58:13] <tantek>
scraping is looking for patterns and using some other, typically flatter/cheaper method for "mostly reliable" extraction of the data
- [21:58:24] <tantek>
e.g. regexes
- [21:58:36] <ajturner>
is there a "best-practices" for consuming/producing MF in general on the wiki
- [21:59:32] <kingryan>
not in general, but there are some specific guides
- [21:59:35] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
- [21:59:38] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring
- [21:59:41] <tantek>
which can be generalized
- [21:59:44] <tantek>
also
- [21:59:48] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-parsing
- [21:59:51] <tantek>
hcalendar-authoring
- [21:59:59] <ajturner>
I want to also put together Rails MF helpers for making authoring easier in Rails apps
- [22:00:42] <ajturner>
thx for the wiki links
- [22:01:03] <ajturner>
so kingryan - you're going to be using the uformatparser from LabNotes?
- [22:01:11] <kingryan>
I already am
- [22:01:28] <ajturner>
I mean, continuing to use/maintain in some fashion?
- [22:01:29] <kingryan>
but the library needs some bugfixes
- [22:01:40] <kingryan>
I can't make any promises
- [22:01:51] <kingryan>
have you tried the scrapi version?
- [22:02:11] <ajturner>
no, I haven't tried one yet - just looked over the options, uformatparser looked the most complete/mature/flexible
- [22:02:37] <kingryan>
scrapi is the next evolution of uformatparser
- [22:02:51] <kingryan>
so it can do at least as much, but it has a different api
- [22:02:58] <kingryan>
and I started before that api came out
- [22:16:27] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
- [22:48:14] * tantek finds a duplicate FAQ in hcard-faq
- [22:48:42] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [22:57:43] <kingryan>
I guess a dupe means that it is very frequently asked?
- [23:02:32] <tantek>
apparently, and hard to find
- [23:02:35] <tantek>
in the FAQ
- [23:02:40] <tantek>
even by someone editing the FAQ
- [23:05:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=8004 * Tantek * (+1668) reformatted with mediawiki level 3 headings for questions, bits of cleanup, removed a duplicate question
- [23:08:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-faq&diff=0&oldid=8005 * Tantek * (+2)
- [23:10:19] <tantek>
ok, done editing hcard-faq
- [23:16:23] <KevinMarks>
eh?
- [23:16:26] <KevinMarks>
Can I automatically add GEO from an address when transfoming an hCard to vCard if it is not present?
- [23:16:27] <KevinMarks>
? No, an address represents a building which is a polygon, whereas a GEO only represents a single point
- [23:16:27] <KevinMarks>
[edit]
- [23:16:35] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [23:16:41] <KevinMarks>
that seems a little silly
- [23:26:21] <ajturner>
KevinMarks - but seems nice to provide the geo in addition?
- [23:26:55] <KevinMarks>
exactly
- [23:27:05] <ajturner>
not everyone has a geocoder handy ;)
- [23:27:16] <KevinMarks>
I think that answer is wrong and pettifogging
- [23:28:46] <ajturner>
which answer? mine or the wiki's?
- [23:29:48] <dc__>
good book
- [23:29:53] <dc__>
oh.
- [23:29:56] <dc__>
freaking scorllback
- [23:32:35] <tantek>
there is a better reason NOT to conflate adr/geo
- [23:32:40] <tantek>
as kingryan and i found out
- [23:33:20] <tantek>
geo is the actual current physical location (point) of the item defined by the vCard
- [23:33:27] <tantek>
adr is just one of many addresses for that item
- [23:33:52] <tantek>
thus autoconverting an adr to a geo is wrong because the semantics are quite different
- [23:34:08] <tantek>
providing a wrong geo is worse than providing none
- [23:36:23] <bewest>
hmmm
- [23:36:30] <bewest>
I'm not supports real-world practice
- [23:36:43] <bewest>
erm I'm not sure that proposition supports real-world practice
- [23:37:02] <bewest>
practically speaking, resolution to a single point is rarely needed
- [23:37:31] <bewest>
it's typically implicitly understood that "a point" also stands for a given radius around that point
- [23:39:00] <KevinMarks>
well, say that then, not some bogosity about polygons
- [23:39:17] <bewest>
KevinMarks: (I'm agreeing with you)
- [23:39:32] <KevinMarks>
yes, that was to Tantek
- [23:40:15] <bewest>
the mindshare among publishers that I'm sensing is that the semantics of geo and adr are not /that/ different
- [23:40:18] <KevinMarks>
my radius extension suggestion was shot down before
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- [23:42:42] <tantek>
bewest, the spec is quite clear on this
- [23:42:58] <tantek>
we're not talking about some generic notion of "geo" here
- [23:43:08] <tantek>
we're talking about the definition of the "geo" property per RFC2426
- [23:43:37] <tantek>
and it's quite useful to distinguish actual physical location (with or without radius of interest, whatever, that's a red herring) from addresses
- [23:44:12] <tantek>
for example, location-based services like Plazes and Dodgeball could easily encode this information semantically correctly in to an hCard geo
- [23:44:41] <drewinthehead>
an address may not even have a physical equivalent
- [23:44:47] <tantek>
true
- [23:44:49] <drewinthehead>
e.g. postal boxes
- [23:46:49] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:50:23] <KevinMarks>
tantek, I'd suggest you put thta in the FAQ
- [23:51:01] <KevinMarks>
and then ti does make sense fro some kinds of vcards (eg ones for companies or landmarks, not individuals)
- [23:52:05] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
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