IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [03:07:00] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
- [03:09:00] <amanuel>
in what ways is SIOC and hatom similar?
- [03:13:58] <factoryjoe>
url for SIOC?
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- [03:25:15] <amanuel>
hi factoryjoe
- [03:25:33] <amanuel>
http://rdfs.org/sioc/
- [03:25:54] <amanuel>
I am in love with hAtom now
- [03:26:02] <factoryjoe>
ince!
- [03:26:05] <factoryjoe>
nice!
- [03:26:12] <amanuel>
I read this http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-November/001866.html
- [03:26:36] <amanuel>
and that reminded me why microformats are the way to go...again.
- [03:26:54] <amanuel>
finally I have my container for quests.
- [03:27:18] <amanuel>
I was not pleased with xoxo as it was too loose.
- [03:27:25] <factoryjoe>
mm
- [03:27:32] <factoryjoe>
have you looked into the group brainstorming work?
- [03:27:47] <amanuel>
yeah I have. xoxo = a list.
- [03:28:00] <factoryjoe>
a very simple list
- [03:28:01] <amanuel>
no real rules beyond that....all optional
- [03:28:04] <factoryjoe>
very similar to opml
- [03:28:09] <factoryjoe>
but any browser will support it
- [03:28:23] <factoryjoe>
as, it should ideally validate
- [03:28:27] <factoryjoe>
xoxo + hatom is pretty good
- [03:28:32] <factoryjoe>
or xoxo + xfn
- [03:28:45] <amanuel>
I am thinking hAtom +xFolk
- [03:28:51] <amanuel>
for the quests
- [03:28:57] <factoryjoe>
ma.gnolia already supports that
- [03:29:01] <factoryjoe>
it's a good reference
- [03:29:09] <factoryjoe>
technorati already indexes that
- [03:29:29] <amanuel>
Otavo has xFolk but no good container to frame the set of links
- [03:29:45] <factoryjoe>
container?
- [03:29:51] <amanuel>
yes
- [03:30:00] <amanuel>
let me give you an example
- [03:30:30] <amanuel>
http://otavo.com/quests/great-online-cartoons
- [03:30:48] <amanuel>
that contains a set of links which are marked up as xFolk.
- [03:31:22] <amanuel>
with hAtom, I can frame the quest the reason why those links are relevant
- [03:31:33] <factoryjoe>
right
- [03:31:47] <factoryjoe>
<hatom><hentry><xfolk></hentry></htaom>
- [03:31:51] <amanuel>
to humans it is all the same...but for auto parsing hAtom will enbed more data
- [03:31:54] <amanuel>
yup
- [03:32:07] <amanuel>
embed.
- [03:32:10] <factoryjoe>
right
- [03:32:23] <factoryjoe>
plus, i can subscribe to the webpage
- [03:32:27] <factoryjoe>
no need for a separate feed
- [03:32:50] <amanuel>
yes
- [03:33:31] <factoryjoe>
did you see my post on this/
- [03:33:37] <factoryjoe>
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/06/wordpress-makes-a-move-towards-hatom-gets-upgrades/
- [03:33:51] <amanuel>
yes that's what brought it to my attention
- [03:34:11] <amanuel>
I still read your blog...sometimes.
- [03:34:21] <amanuel>
;)
- [03:35:09] <amanuel>
I had scoured the microformats to have a container for the quest but left it out as I was not satisfied with xoxo.
- [03:35:37] <amanuel>
I mean these days everyone uses <ul> lists for design
- [03:36:19] <amanuel>
if the class="xoxo" is optional I felt it was impossible to guarantee proper parsing.
- [03:36:56] <amanuel>
I like xoxo's principles...it is just not for what I needed on quests
- [03:37:49] <factoryjoe>
hmm
- [03:37:50] <factoryjoe>
i see
- [03:37:55] <factoryjoe>
you might post this to the list then
- [03:37:59] <factoryjoe>
and see what they offer
- [03:38:04] <factoryjoe>
i see your point
- [03:38:10] <factoryjoe>
but you can do things like look for context
- [03:38:31] <factoryjoe>
furthermore -- xoxo only gives you structure
- [03:38:35] <factoryjoe>
and loose relationship
- [03:38:48] <factoryjoe>
but xoxo inside an hentry could prove useful, especially with xfolk --
- [03:38:53] <amanuel>
yes xoxo is good substitute for opml but beyond that things go gray.
- [03:39:04] <factoryjoe>
that starts to build a rich semantic picture
- [03:39:19] <factoryjoe>
hence the question about SIOC?
- [03:39:31] <factoryjoe>
again, post the question to the group framing it as such...
- [03:39:38] <factoryjoe>
i wonder if a quest is really like a group?
- [03:39:41] <amanuel>
SIOC is a like opml a layer outside.
- [03:39:41] <factoryjoe>
with members?
- [03:40:14] <factoryjoe>
um
- [03:40:22] <amanuel>
yes a quest is a micro-community intent on solving something
- [03:40:37] <amanuel>
or finding something...whatever they are gathering to do as defined in the quest
- [03:41:13] <factoryjoe>
like a magnolia group?
- [03:41:15] <factoryjoe>
finding what?
- [03:41:17] <factoryjoe>
is it finite?
- [03:41:22] <amanuel>
yes
- [03:41:27] <factoryjoe>
ic
- [03:41:36] <amanuel>
think collections in flock
- [03:41:59] <amanuel>
but social collections based on intention as defined in the quest instead of tag/category
- [03:42:25] <amanuel>
so the HOW/WHY not the WHAT is the gathering force
- [03:43:08] <factoryjoe>
sure
- [03:43:15] <amanuel>
quests don't have a 'finish' per-se
- [03:43:20] <factoryjoe>
but the structure and relationships may already be expressed in other mFs
- [03:44:45] <amanuel>
yeah
- [03:52:06] <factoryjoe>
well, try the list
- [03:52:10] <factoryjoe>
at least you have working code
- [03:52:17] <factoryjoe>
and people like to fix working sites! ;)
- [03:57:47] <amanuel>
lol
- [03:57:59] <amanuel>
yeah I'll see how hAtom plays out.
- [03:59:18] <amanuel>
otavo is doing well out in the wild...we even got our first plugin developed by one of the users.
- [03:59:53] <amanuel>
community developed that is...it was a nice suprise.
- [04:01:07] <amanuel>
http://lwallenstein.poweredbygeek.net/wordpress/?p=8
- [04:01:14] <amanuel>
sidebar widget for wordpress
- [04:01:56] <amanuel>
we had built 1 for myspace, JS widget with Typepad installer
- [04:02:46] <amanuel>
see you around factoryjoe I have to get some stuff done.
- [04:02:58] <amanuel>
nite
- [04:03:28] <factoryjoe>
nice
- [04:03:33] <factoryjoe>
ok g'nitte
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- [11:04:18] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [11:10:23] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [13:38:04] <jibot>
qid is David Osolkowski (http://wadny.com/)
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- [13:53:30] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [13:59:21] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [14:11:54] <briansuda>
has anyone given any thoughts to using the GEO microformat with images?
- [14:12:33] <briansuda>
<abbr title="3.14;2.78" class="geo"><img src="house.png"/></abbr>
- [14:13:26] <briansuda>
or according to the hcard-parsing page, on an IMG element it looks to the alt?
- [14:13:55] <briansuda>
<img src="house.png" alt="3.14;2.78" class="geo"/> would that acceptable?
- [14:14:43] <drewinthehead>
alt certainly wouldn't be appropriate ... it's different information, not an alternative
- [14:15:03] <drewinthehead>
i don't think abbr is right either
- [14:15:41] <drewinthehead>
as for a good solution, i'm not sure i have one, so enough with the negative comments from me ;)
- [14:15:47] <briansuda>
wel @alt is alternative, which is ok to be different
- [14:16:01] <briansuda>
drewinthehead, what happened to http://tools.microformatics.com/
- [14:16:19] <drewinthehead>
http://tools.microformatic.com/
- [14:16:26] <briansuda>
ah
- [14:16:39] <briansuda>
then there is a squater at the plural
- [14:16:53] <drewinthehead>
nope, that's me also :D
- [14:17:01] <drewinthehead>
i'll make sure they point to the same place
- [14:17:22] <briansuda>
:)
- [14:17:31] <briansuda>
is there a link to download hKit?
- [14:17:52] <drewinthehead>
http://allinthehead.com/hkit
- [14:18:02] <drewinthehead>
i should add it to that site too
- [14:18:07] <drewinthehead>
i'm in a mess :)
- [14:31:07] <briansuda>
i have run across this hCard page (http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/SVS/personnel/henrich/index.php) i think the author of that page has been in this IRC before.
- [14:31:38] <briansuda>
it uses PGP in the hCard, so this is a first in the wild, but it has malformed UTF-8, so i can't parse it
- [14:51:42] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:51:42] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
- [14:54:30] * tantek (n=tantek@h-68-164-194-52.lsanca54.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:54:31] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [14:54:34] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [15:07:33] <amanuel>
what's the url for the technorati kitchen thing that was announced about MFs?
- [15:07:33] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [15:08:59] * amanuel found it nevermind
- [15:11:47] <tantek>
hello amanuel
- [15:12:02] <amanuel>
hi tantek
- [15:12:34] <tantek>
let me know if you have any feedback about http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/
- [15:13:17] <amanuel>
k.
- [15:13:39] <amanuel>
I had a chat yesterday about hAtom with factoryjoe
- [15:14:14] <amanuel>
I was looking for a container to hold lists of links based on intentions.
- [15:15:15] <amanuel>
I want it easier for search engines and other automated system to parse and recognize that a given set of xFolk are related
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- [15:16:05] <amanuel>
but I see that microformat search doesn't do anything with xFolk :(
- [15:16:09] <amanuel>
or hAtom
- [15:17:06] <amanuel>
I'll be back soon. gotta go now.
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- [15:39:47] <briansuda>
interesting that i stumble across Microformats references on Wikipedia all the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_link)
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- [17:17:46] <jibot>
Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
- [17:22:15] <mfbot>
[[WikiNode]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=WikiNode&diff=0&oldid=8109 * MarkDilley * (+0)
- [17:38:34] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.49-121.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:38:34] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [17:47:11] * cgranade (n=cgranade@209-193-47-68-cdsl-rb1.fai.acsalaska.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:49:45] <cgranade>
I just wanted to submit something for considering by the MF community.
- [17:50:24] <cgranade>
Seemed too small to go through the full proposal process, but I wanted to ask if anyone else thought that using rel="nsfw" to mark NSFW content was a good idea.
- [17:51:13] <cgranade>
I wrote about the issue here: http://cgranade.blogspot.com/2006/02/not-safe-for-work-case-for-new.html
- [17:52:25] <briansuda>
that whole issue has been dealt with before
- [17:52:40] <cgranade>
Ah. OK. Sorry to waste time, then. Didn't notice.
- [17:52:47] <briansuda>
the whole idea of defining what IS and what ISN'T safe is out of scope
- [17:53:06] <briansuda>
have a quick search on the mailing list archives, and you'll see the fall-out
- [17:53:37] <cgranade>
OK. I'll go do that. Guess I should have first. Someone from another mailing list recommended posting here.
- [17:54:01] <cgranade>
Once again, sorry to bring up yesterday's debate.
- [17:54:36] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004942.html
- [17:54:46] <briansuda>
not a problem, we're used to it
- [17:55:00] <cgranade>
Sadly, I'm sure that's the case.
- [17:55:10] <briansuda>
the more and more people that bring things-up the more and more references we get, and our archives come in very handy
- [17:55:45] <briansuda>
the IRC is logged as well, alot of discussion happens here
- [17:55:46] <briansuda>
http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/
- [17:56:01] <briansuda>
(obviously not too much discussion on the weekends :) )
- [17:56:28] <briansuda>
the easiest way to search both of those is to use google and search for "site:http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/ <search terms here>"
- [17:56:38] <cgranade>
Thanks for the advice.
- [17:56:57] <briansuda>
not a problem - the mailing list can be quite active, so there is ALOT to dig through!
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- [17:57:48] * briansuda thinks the overall consensus was to use rel-Tag
- [17:59:22] <cgranade>
Seems like that would work, though it might be a bit verbose. Is there any way of attaching a rel-tag to an outgoing link? I can see that being useful in general.
- [17:59:33] <KevinMarks>
xfolk
- [18:00:30] <KevinMarks>
Related tags for 'nsfw': Eye Candy, Video, Sexy, Nudity, Sex, Funny, Glamour, Brunette, Music, Humor
- [18:00:38] <KevinMarks>
according to technorati
- [18:00:56] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.49-121.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
- [18:01:12] <cgranade>
That's an interesting set of related tags.
- [18:02:55] <briansuda>
KevinMarks, am i imagining things, or did the http://kitchen.technorati.com/ used to have an RSS feed?
- [18:03:10] <briansuda>
... an RSS feed of the search results
- [18:03:20] <KevinMarks>
not sure
- [18:03:21] <briansuda>
or did i just wish it did?
- [18:03:39] <KevinMarks>
ask tantek - he did the front-end bits
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- [18:04:54] * briansuda makes a note, doesn't see Tantek around
- [18:06:15] <briansuda>
KevinMarks, question about pingerati, do you want the ACTUAL page with the microformatted data, or does the URL get crawled?
- [18:34:29] <KevinMarks>
eh?
- [18:34:53] <KevinMarks>
i dont quite follow that distinction
- [18:38:21] <KevinMarks>
you send a url, we download it and look for mf's
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- [18:46:59] <briansuda>
sorry, i meant that if i sent http://example.com/ would that spider all the links within the domain, or should i submit example.com/foo/ example.com/bar/ ...
- [18:47:12] <briansuda>
each individually
- [18:59:37] <KevinMarks>
individually
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- [19:08:08] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [20:13:15] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [20:16:46] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [20:34:46] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
- [20:36:44] <cgriego>
briansuda: I noticed in xhtml2vcard.xsl that sometimes abbr is checked with name() and sometimes with local-name(). why not always local-name()?
- [20:37:05] <briansuda>
not sure, it should be consistant
- [20:37:29] <briansuda>
one gets the element name, and the other gets namespace and element name
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- [20:38:43] <cgriego>
right, and I'm concerned since I'm using Dean Edward's abbr-cadabra trick, which uses a namespace on abbr elements so IE will behave :)
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- [20:39:13] <briansuda>
let me know which works, and i can update the XSLT
- [20:40:23] * jon_ is now known as Cliche
- [20:40:31] <cgriego>
can not all calls to name() be changed to local-name()?
- [20:41:07] <briansuda>
probably, yes
- [20:41:31] <briansuda>
local-name is the one then? that will ignore the namespace and look at just the element name
- [20:41:38] <cgriego>
yes
- [20:46:36] <cgriego>
briansuda: how did you lean XSL?
- [20:48:26] <briansuda>
i've always puttered around with it. The easiest way to learn it is to just work on something
- [20:48:45] <briansuda>
my XSLTs are not the best - they need alot of clean-up and refactorying :)
- [20:50:21] <cgriego>
I've had to deal with it recently and it's pretty daunting
- [20:52:02] <briansuda>
it can be, it is a declarative language so it takes abit to wrap your head around, but it pretty powerful once you understand it
- [20:52:37] <briansuda>
ok, i have converted all the name() to local-name() and i am just testing for regression errors... so far so good
- [20:53:29] <cgriego>
excellent
- [20:55:51] <briansuda>
ok, you can use http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ to test, that has the updated XSLT
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- [21:03:07] <cgriego>
sorry, I'm getting a new version ready and uploaded
- [21:14:08] <cgriego>
how outdated is the version at feeds.technorati.com/contact/?
- [21:14:11] <cgriego>
I'm using it for comparison
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- [21:15:35] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
- [21:21:10] <cgriego>
technorati's version includes the geo information (html:abbr'd), which is actually incorrect because I have it as a child of the adr element (intentionally), sudo.co.uk is properly including additional URLs, and is translating an en-dash properly.
- [21:21:37] <cgriego>
but sudo.co.uk now drops the region, which is also html:abbr'd, technorati does not
- [21:23:20] <briansuda>
do you have a link?
- [21:23:56] <cgriego>
I'm minimizing the page now
- [21:30:36] <cgriego>
briansuda: http://vivalaweb.info/hcard.html
- [21:32:14] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:34:06] * briansuda is looking
- [21:36:35] <briansuda>
ok, i know what the problem is....
- [21:37:13] <briansuda>
in order to make sure the HTML is well-formed i have to pass the page through TIDY (http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fvivalaweb.info%2Fhcard.html) and that is stripping out your <html:abbr>
- [21:37:34] <Cliche>
hey all, i think i may have an idea for a new microformat but i'm not sure the best way of going about getting started; ie fining out if it's already been done or where to start researching the existing applications that would benefit from the mf
- [21:37:41] <briansuda>
the technorati service uses an internal TIDY, my hosting provider has an old version of PHP, so tidy is not installed.
- [21:38:25] <briansuda>
Cliche, read through this first: http://microformats.org/wiki/process
- [21:38:49] <cgriego>
grr, tidy loves being the bane of my existance
- [21:38:59] <Cliche>
thanks, found that page last night but it was late so didnt read it and couldnt find it again
- [21:39:06] <briansuda>
cgriego, i will soon be moving to a new hosting provider and should be able to run TIDY locally so i can configure some of this stuff
- [21:39:59] <briansuda>
cgriego, if you see kingryan or tantek online, they can update the Technorati service, i have checked the code into hg.microformats.org so they can get it from there.
- [21:40:25] <cgriego>
ok
- [21:40:33] <cgriego>
do you plan on updating the version number at all?
- [21:41:20] <cgriego>
and of course, thanks for your help :)
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- [21:43:19] <qid>
Cliche: what's your idea? I think I'm fairly familiar with what sorts of things have been proposed before so I can let you know if someone's already come up with the same idea
- [21:43:38] <cgriego>
oh you did update the version, the minor version isn't in the Prodid
- [21:47:01] <Cliche>
qid, just reading the page briansuda linked me. i know what the problem is and it will be pretty straight forward to document current behavior but i can't quite work out if microformats is the way to solve the problem.
- [21:47:49] <qid>
that's ok, microformats can't solve everything :-)
- [21:50:04] <Cliche>
if i tell you the starts of my idea woul you be able to help me decide if its worth persuing or not?
- [21:50:09] <qid>
sure
- [21:54:38] <briansuda>
cgriego, in the comments at the top of the XSLT there is a version 0.8.4, i should update that in the PRODID too, so you can easily tell the difference between the technorati version and mine
- [21:59:46] <Cliche>
well a few days ago i aksed my family members, non technical net users, what they found annoying about the net. and nearly all of them said its annoying that its impossible to tell the _way_ in which someone said something. and on a similar line my sister, who uses adium, says is annoying that emoticon rnt standard, for example to show a face some protocols use :) while others use :-) and she dosnt want to have to rememb
- [22:03:56] <qid>
I'm guessing that's more the fault of lazy or poor writing than any technical issue
- [22:04:14] <qid>
or indeed the very nature of written communication
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- [22:10:02] <qid>
on the subject of emoticons more specifically, I'm not sure I see an issue... :) and :-) are both smiley faces, it seems unlikely that someone would understand what one means but not the other
- [22:11:02] <qid>
once someone gets the general principle of an emoticon just being a sideways face, most of them become pretty obvious
- [22:12:08] <Cliche>
it was a very basic example. some protocols/clients use : ) and some : - ) when using a multi protocol client if you type the wrong one the other person dosn't get the emoticon u intended, they get either a different one or just the text, unless it recognises both as the same image
- [22:12:51] <Cliche>
i realise now having typed it out that microformats rnt the solution to that problem
- [22:15:34] <Cliche>
mfs are very kewl though :D
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- [22:58:56] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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