IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:44] <AdamCraven> Could be a can of worms this question...
  2. [00:01:09] <AdamCraven> Most people use <em> over <i>
  3. [00:01:36] <bewest> that's no can of worms
  4. [00:01:38] <AdamCraven> However, <em> indicates emphasis, but many use it just to create an italic effect
  5. [00:01:40] <bewest> that's an easy one
  6. [00:01:53] <bewest> html is about markup, not presentation
  7. [00:01:58] <AdamCraven> In that case, <i> would be more symantically correct
  8. [00:02:05] <bewest> nope
  9. [00:02:23] <AdamCraven> why not?
  10. [00:02:24] <bewest> if you want a generic container to which apply styling, use one of the anonymous tags... span or div
  11. [00:02:43] <AdamCraven> hmm
  12. [00:03:01] <AdamCraven> I can see where you're coming from, but it's a lot of extra code
  13. [00:03:03] <bewest> people use <i> because it's less typing
  14. [00:03:15] <bewest> I use <b> on occasion
  15. [00:03:21] <bewest> and it's always out of pure laziness
  16. [00:03:29] <bewest> shame on me :-(
  17. [00:03:57] <AdamCraven> really a lot of the time we should be using
  18. [00:04:11] <AdamCraven> <span class="italic">fish</span>
  19. [00:04:30] <AdamCraven> that just seems like a backward step, inefficient if you will
  20. [00:05:03] <AdamCraven> you're using the class, but you're not using it symantically
  21. [00:05:07] <bewest> yes, class="italic" is a bad classname
  22. [00:05:08] <AdamCraven> just for style
  23. [00:05:37] <bewest> <span class="keyword">fish</span> is much better
  24. [00:05:39] <AdamCraven> but creating <span class="food_we_ate_today">fish</span>
  25. [00:05:46] <AdamCraven> might be good
  26. [00:05:53] <bewest> food_we_ate_today isn't so hot either
  27. [00:05:56] <bewest> keyword is good
  28. [00:06:09] <AdamCraven> in a realistic situation, you might want lots of the italic effect
  29. [00:06:27] <AdamCraven> <span class="meat">cow</span>
  30. [00:06:31] <bewest> which is why keyword is a good classname.... very reuseable
  31. [00:06:51] <AdamCraven> <span class="vegatables">tomato</span>
  32. [00:06:54] <bewest> <span class="mammal">cow</span> is better
  33. [00:07:27] <bewest> but again, if the point is to apply the same style <span class="keyword">cow</span> is much better
  34. [00:07:39] <bewest> <span class="keyword mammal">cow</span> is even better
  35. [00:07:50] <AdamCraven> it seems like a conflict between a design and coder
  36. [00:07:57] <AdamCraven> you must have had them before?
  37. [00:08:20] <bewest> only when the designer doesn't know what they are talking about... which isn't really a conflict
  38. [00:08:35] <bewest> markup has very little to do with design
  39. [00:08:54] <AdamCraven> "let's just put an '<i>' here" -- "Wha?? But it's not symantically correct"
  40. [00:09:11] <AdamCraven> "So??" ... Then the explaination that follows
  41. [00:09:12] * briansuda agrees with bewest
  42. [00:09:53] <bewest> AdamCraven: that's not a conflict... that's an education gap
  43. [00:10:06] <bewest> a gap resolved by explanation/education
  44. [00:11:22] * bewest is lucky to be working with a great designer atm
  45. [00:11:38] <AdamCraven> indeed, I'm also trying to justify to myself the reason why using perfect symantics is super important. Of course it's very important for things which are uniform (like microformats).
  46. [00:11:53] <AdamCraven> I want one of those bewest
  47. [00:12:26] <factoryjoe> class="keyword"??
  48. [00:12:30] <factoryjoe> class="tag"
  49. [00:12:59] <AdamCraven> is there a lot of difference?
  50. [00:13:11] <AdamCraven> Isn't a keyword usually the same as a tag?
  51. [00:13:35] <factoryjoe> nope
  52. [00:13:38] <factoryjoe> same thing
  53. [00:13:39] <bewest> factoryjoe: I suppose I'd need more contextual data to evaluate which of "keyword" or "tag" would be better
  54. [00:13:51] <bewest> tag is shorter
  55. [00:13:53] <bewest> hmmm
  56. [00:13:59] <bewest> less typing is good :-)
  57. [00:14:09] <bewest> but they aren't quite the same
  58. [00:14:18] <AdamCraven> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag
  59. [00:14:30] <AdamCraven> "a page indicates that the destination of that hyperlink is an author-designated "tag" (or keyword/subject)"
  60. [00:14:32] <bewest> a tag is an identifier a keyword is a description
  61. [00:15:03] <bewest> when you go into the store you look at a tag to further identify some properties of the item
  62. [00:15:08] <bewest> you don't do the same with keywords
  63. [00:15:17] <bewest> keywords describe what part of the store you find the item
  64. [00:15:20] <bewest> which isle
  65. [00:16:14] <AdamCraven> hmm
  66. [00:16:58] <AdamCraven> I know this is getting a bit nit picky
  67. [00:17:33] * bewest is an armchair Nit Picker
  68. [00:17:35] <AdamCraven> but take technorati for example
  69. [00:17:58] <bewest> picker of nits and fuzzies
  70. [00:18:01] <briansuda> semantic class names are better than presentational ones, for the simple reason that they will out live the "design" of the site. class="blue-box" is not a good thing, class="alert-box" is better. This has nothing to do with parsing microformats
  71. [00:18:33] <bewest> right, my suggestions were totally agnostic of mf
  72. [00:18:39] <AdamCraven> actually, let's not take technorati for example. It's a bit late for tag/keyword thing.
  73. [00:18:46] <AdamCraven> Brian, I totally agree on that
  74. [00:19:09] <AdamCraven> It's just things such as using the <i> tag
  75. [00:19:31] <AdamCraven> when you should use <span class="food">chips</span>
  76. [00:19:36] <briansuda> i think <i> is depricated?
  77. [00:19:51] <Phae> i isn't, em is just more semantic, afaik
  78. [00:19:58] <bewest> iirc it is deprecated
  79. [00:19:58] <briansuda> well, you CSS can take multiple properties for the same style
  80. [00:20:00] <factoryjoe> <i> is presentational
  81. [00:20:04] <factoryjoe> as is <b>
  82. [00:20:13] <factoryjoe> <em> works in screen readers
  83. [00:20:15] <factoryjoe> and changes voice
  84. [00:20:16] <briansuda> .food, .meat, .vegitable { font-style: italics; }
  85. [00:20:19] <factoryjoe> so it's semantic
  86. [00:20:21] <AdamCraven> Has it been depreciated on the specs?
  87. [00:20:25] <tantek> vegetable even
  88. [00:20:25] <factoryjoe> i don't think so
  89. [00:20:26] <Phae> i use em and strong regardless, because of the additional meaning
  90. [00:20:34] <tantek> deprecated in modern usage
  91. [00:20:35] <factoryjoe> heh
  92. [00:20:38] <Phae> yeah
  93. [00:20:38] <factoryjoe> right
  94. [00:20:39] <AdamCraven> sometimes, using em is front though
  95. [00:20:41] <factoryjoe> in convention
  96. [00:20:42] <AdamCraven> *wrong
  97. [00:20:51] <Phae> when?
  98. [00:20:51] <AdamCraven> if you aren't emphasising
  99. [00:20:52] <briansuda> i think it is deprecated on XHTML 1.1....
  100. [00:20:55] * briansuda checks
  101. [00:20:57] <factoryjoe> so you should use <span style="font-weight:bold;">
  102. [00:20:57] <Phae> that's presentational then
  103. [00:20:59] <tantek> no not yet
  104. [00:20:59] <bewest> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-I
  105. [00:21:04] <Phae> you can use CSS to add the presentational italics
  106. [00:21:07] <Phae> rather than i
  107. [00:21:08] <tantek> but it is presentational
  108. [00:21:20] <factoryjoe> it's like tables to layout
  109. [00:21:21] <factoryjoe> you can do it
  110. [00:21:26] <factoryjoe> but none of the cool kids do anymore
  111. [00:21:30] <Phae> heh
  112. [00:21:33] <AdamCraven> You don't use tables?!
  113. [00:21:36] <AdamCraven> haha, just kidding
  114. [00:22:08] <AdamCraven> I think we've hammered it home. However, it's also nice to be efficient with code at times
  115. [00:22:15] <tantek> <b> and <br> are in XHTML 1.0 Stricmicr well, that doesn't mean you should use them to make headlines.
  116. [00:22:15] <briansuda> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element#Presentational_markup
  117. [00:22:23] <AdamCraven> that was my concern
  118. [00:22:25] <Phae> there's not any reason to use <i> now, since if it's just for show CSS handles it, and if it's for meaning you have <em>
  119. [00:22:37] <briansuda> sorry, <u> is deprecated
  120. [00:22:42] <Phae> yeah
  121. [00:23:01] <bewest> <strike> is deprecated along with <u>
  122. [00:23:12] <bewest> the others were apparently spared from the chopping block
  123. [00:23:14] <Phae> yea, since we have line-through
  124. [00:23:27] <Phae> although, I kind of like strike to indicate something that was true but now isn't.
  125. [00:23:28] <tantek> strike, spare? are you a bowler bewest?
  126. [00:23:30] <Phae> So it's a shame that went.
  127. [00:23:34] <bewest> erm
  128. [00:23:46] <bewest> no
  129. [00:23:47] <bewest> hehe
  130. [00:23:55] <bewest> just my subconcious playing word gaimes
  131. [00:23:57] <bewest> games, even
  132. [00:24:04] <AdamCraven> <!-- , presentational right?
  133. [00:24:14] <Phae> comments? what?
  134. [00:24:23] <tantek> adam, hah - no, just ignored
  135. [00:24:28] * Phae would like to bring back strike
  136. [00:25:18] <bewest> AdamCraven: <!-- --> is ok, so is <![CDATA[ ]]>
  137. [00:25:36] <AdamCraven> hmm, I don't like em. Usually the contents contain presentational information 'Put big blue man here'.
  138. [00:25:47] <AdamCraven> etc, etc.
  139. [00:25:57] <bewest> although if it's served as text/html <![CDATA[ ]]> gets converted into <!-- --> transparently by the browser
  140. [00:26:09] * tantek mentions related page on the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml
  141. [00:26:13] <AdamCraven> ah, that's clever. Even on Ie5?
  142. [00:26:28] <bewest> AdamCraven: no... comments are useful, just like in any other language
  143. [00:26:34] * Phae likes comments.
  144. [00:26:36] <bewest> <!-- TODO: fix this later -->
  145. [00:26:40] <AdamCraven> haha
  146. [00:26:55] <AdamCraven> yeah, obviously not on production deployments
  147. [00:27:03] <bewest> you'd be surprised :-)
  148. [00:27:14] <Phae> I've started hCarding client contact info on projects at work, and I comment with a little link to microformats to educate those who wonder what the hell I'm doing.
  149. [00:27:31] <AdamCraven> well, I know it's not realistic to expect them to be removed, because if they haven't an in house coder
  150. [00:27:57] <AdamCraven> Finally, and seriously I'm off to bed after this one
  151. [00:28:01] <Phae> heh
  152. [00:28:04] <bewest> I'm a coder and I leave comments in until I'm sure the issue if flushed out
  153. [00:28:06] <AdamCraven> What about mr <pre>
  154. [00:28:11] <Phae> heh
  155. [00:28:14] <Phae> I so rarely use pre
  156. [00:28:16] <bewest> sometimes the issue isn't flushed out by the time it ships
  157. [00:28:21] <Phae> What about it?
  158. [00:28:30] <bewest> I use <pre> a lot when I'm debugging
  159. [00:28:34] <Phae> Do you?
  160. [00:28:34] <tantek> AdamCraven, if the white space has meaning then use <pre>
  161. [00:28:39] <tantek> bbiab
  162. [00:28:48] <bewest> or building
  163. [00:28:52] <Phae> I use it if I'm maybe wanting to display a code snippet
  164. [00:28:58] <AdamCraven> Pre, it's presentational right?
  165. [00:29:01] <Phae> but other than that I don't tend to have a need for it
  166. [00:29:02] <Phae> Yeah
  167. [00:29:04] <bewest> yes, a lot of times I have a javascript logging console that logs to a <pre>
  168. [00:29:06] <tantek> not quote
  169. [00:29:09] <tantek> not quite that is
  170. [00:29:22] <tantek> <pre> has the minimal semantic that the whitespace contained within *has* a semantic
  171. [00:29:27] <Phae> yeah
  172. [00:29:33] <Phae> Good for python eh?
  173. [00:29:35] <tantek> so it is not just presentational
  174. [00:29:42] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  175. [00:29:44] <AdamCraven> hmm, it's a bit of an interesting one.
  176. [00:29:58] <bewest> typically whitespace in debug logs is important :-)
  177. [00:30:05] <bewest> and it beats the hell out of alert()
  178. [00:30:07] <AdamCraven> I mean really, it would be nice to have a CSS property that could do that
  179. [00:30:13] <bewest> oh?
  180. [00:30:14] <bewest> :-)
  181. [00:30:21] <qid> AdamCraven: preserve whitespace?
  182. [00:30:22] <bewest> you mean like whitespace: pre; ?
  183. [00:30:28] <AdamCraven> that's the one
  184. [00:30:29] <AdamCraven> haha
  185. [00:30:30] <Phae> yeah
  186. [00:30:44] <AdamCraven> I'm mr 2.1 spec, IE5,6+ developer
  187. [00:30:49] <AdamCraven> I don't use anything advanced
  188. [00:30:55] <AdamCraven> until I can
  189. [00:30:57] <bewest> why IE5?
  190. [00:31:04] <bewest> IE5 is thoroughly dead
  191. [00:31:10] <AdamCraven> just about nowadays
  192. [00:31:13] <Phae> I have clients who still request IE5 compatibility
  193. [00:31:17] <bewest> really?!
  194. [00:31:20] <Phae> So it's actually still a problem for a lot of us
  195. [00:31:21] <Phae> Yes.
  196. [00:31:21] <AdamCraven> however, on other sites
  197. [00:31:31] <AdamCraven> quite a small minority is IE5
  198. [00:31:35] <AdamCraven> 2-4%
  199. [00:31:38] <Phae> I've said though, that when IE7 is out, we abandon IE5
  200. [00:31:47] <Phae> Because then it's just taking the piss.
  201. [00:31:49] <Phae> :)
  202. [00:31:52] <qid> there are times I'm glad I'm a software engineer, not a web developer
  203. [00:31:54] <Phae> heh
  204. [00:32:00] <bewest> much smaller than 2-4%
  205. [00:32:03] <qid> any time someone mentions IE is one of them
  206. [00:32:09] <bewest> it's more like .05%
  207. [00:32:26] <bewest> maybe as much as .58%
  208. [00:32:30] <Phae> Anyway, can't escape client "I want this" lists. I do tend to go for 5.5 though ,since it's easier to fix for
  209. [00:32:33] <AdamCraven> yeah, you maybe right. That was an 'out of my arse figure'
  210. [00:32:56] <AdamCraven> I'm actually really good with 5.0x's problems
  211. [00:32:56] <Phae> and you can convince clients that 5.5 is acceptable
  212. [00:33:09] <Phae> It's not that bad
  213. [00:33:13] <AdamCraven> it's a shame it's gone almost, because when it is, won't be able to charge as much
  214. [00:33:19] <Phae> I find usually my list based menus go pop in 5.0
  215. [00:33:21] <AdamCraven> well I will
  216. [00:33:27] <Phae> heh
  217. [00:33:28] <AdamCraven> but just won't feel as justifued
  218. [00:33:33] <AdamCraven> *fied
  219. [00:33:45] <AdamCraven> yeah, line-height:1em;
  220. [00:33:51] <AdamCraven> is definately important for it
  221. [00:33:54] <Phae> :)
  222. [00:33:59] <AdamCraven> plus doing inline lists for IE5
  223. [00:34:03] <AdamCraven> nightmare!
  224. [00:34:05] <Phae> yeah
  225. [00:34:06] <Phae> exactly
  226. [00:34:16] <Phae> oh wells! it's all good fujn
  227. [00:34:18] <bewest> inline lists?
  228. [00:34:22] <Phae> if it was too straight forward, it would be boring
  229. [00:34:29] <AdamCraven> hopefully IE7 will 'break' plenty of sites
  230. [00:34:37] <AdamCraven> then lots of people will be running around panicking
  231. [00:34:38] <bewest> it will :-)
  232. [00:34:46] <AdamCraven> inline lists, yeah
  233. [00:34:48] <Phae> I need to sleep now.
  234. [00:34:56] <Phae> So, I'll say g'night
  235. [00:35:04] <AdamCraven> g'night mate
  236. [00:35:06] <Phae> :)
  237. [00:35:07] <bewest> night Phae
  238. [00:35:12] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-162-41.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  239. [00:45:33] <AdamCraven> g'night fellers :)
  240. [00:45:55] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("Going to bed thinking about <pre>sentational markup")
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  245. [01:15:08] * remi (n=remi@dsl-139-100.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  246. [01:15:08] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  247. [01:19:58] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  251. [02:43:05] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  253. [02:55:18] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  254. [03:11:17] * DanC had some fun doing trip planning with hCalendar today http://www.w3.org/2006/09dc-aus/aus-aa
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  257. [03:35:07] <Molly> hello
  258. [03:36:20] <qid> hi
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  272. [06:59:11] * cbarrett wonders why xFolk is called xFolk.
  273. [06:59:26] <cbarrett> I thought microformats started with h ('cause it looks like a mu?)
  274. [07:02:45] <factoryjoe> xfolk is derivative from delicious
  275. [07:02:56] <factoryjoe> and the name stems from folksonomy
  276. [07:03:07] <factoryjoe> and hFolk sounded lame
  277. [07:10:20] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  278. [07:11:01] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  280. [07:18:03] <mfbot> [[User:Colin Barrett]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Colin_Barrett * Colin Barrett * (+180)
  281. [07:23:47] * bunny (n=bunny@adsl-89-217-26-176.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
  282. [07:52:56] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=8286 * Kuma * (+95) Examples in the wild -
  283. [08:01:17] * stuup (n=stu@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) has joined #microformats
  284. [08:03:03] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  285. [08:03:03] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  286. [08:05:34] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  287. [08:05:34] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  299. [10:05:43] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  300. [10:05:48] <Phae> morning
  301. [10:06:07] <Whiskey_M> Hi Phae, see you made it onto Accessify
  302. [10:06:13] <Phae> yeah :)
  303. [10:06:18] <Phae> I thought I better.
  304. [10:06:30] <Whiskey_M> 'tis a good place
  305. [10:06:46] <Phae> Yeah, I have frequented it in the past purely as a viewer.
  306. [10:07:46] <Whiskey_M> found out about it when our company was getting a slating over a sitemorse rant. Glad I found it though, learnt a lot
  307. [10:07:55] <Phae> heh
  308. [10:07:58] <Phae> Yeah
  309. [10:08:07] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@193.5.240.1) Quit ()
  310. [10:11:16] <Whiskey_M> WSG on the 19th? Must try to catch my train this time ;)
  311. [10:11:16] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  312. [10:11:26] <Phae> :)
  313. [10:12:58] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  314. [10:12:58] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  315. [10:27:45] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #microformats
  316. [10:29:34] <trovster> Anyone know a none web-facing conversion fr vcards which supports 'cell'?
  317. [10:47:59] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
  318. [10:49:32] <trovster> Sudas script is not liking tel values.
  319. [10:51:32] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  320. [10:51:32] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  321. [10:51:35] <McNulty> morning
  322. [10:51:46] <McNulty> In hCard is there a way of indicating that a phone number is an internal one?
  323. [11:00:55] <McNulty> I have a list of extension numbers and marking them as @class="tel" would be a bit misleading
  324. [11:02:01] * trovster can't get class="tel" in to outlook
  325. [11:03:07] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  326. [11:05:28] <McNulty> trovster - how do you mean?
  327. [11:06:09] <Phae> hm.. you're right, there doens't seem to be a type that seems particuarly suited to an extension
  328. [11:06:16] <trovster> Well, I have a page with people + numbers on, marked up as a hCard, but Brian Suda's script to put them in to outlook doesn't get the phone numbers.
  329. [11:06:56] <Phae> although I think I'd be inclined to mark them just as normal phone numbers
  330. [11:09:19] <Phae> work prefered?
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  332. [11:14:34] <McNulty> trovster - url?
  333. [11:14:42] <trovster> It's private data
  334. [11:14:45] <McNulty> oh
  335. [11:14:48] <McNulty> snippet?
  336. [11:15:02] <trovster> it's just tel examples... they're private numbers
  337. [11:15:10] <McNulty> what does the resultant vCard look like? Does it look correct?
  338. [11:15:37] <Phae> You could show us a snippet with false numbers.
  339. [11:15:54] <trovster> It works in drew's script.
  340. [11:17:10] <McNulty> ah right
  341. [11:17:31] <trovster> http://paste.css-standards.org/1940
  342. [11:20:41] <Phae> "How's you? Found you on the Accessify forum so thought I'd say hi.
  343. [11:20:41] <Phae> I'm really interested in Microformats but not sure really where to start. Can you recommend any readings/books for a total novice? "
  344. [11:20:52] <McNulty> nothing wrong with that, trovster
  345. [11:21:00] <trovster> ... i know ...
  346. [11:22:07] <McNulty> heh
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  350. [11:29:38] <trovster> Outlook wants TEL;CELL;VOICE:453786, and the script gives TEL:cell 12453547986
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  355. [11:52:34] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  359. [12:33:17] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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  362. [12:57:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  364. [13:04:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  365. [13:04:24] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  366. [13:13:32] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N113P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  367. [13:21:59] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  368. [13:21:59] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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  370. [13:26:42] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  371. [13:28:43] <McNulty> trovster - the vCard RFC looks like TEL;TYPE=cell:1233456789 is correct.
  372. [13:29:19] <trovster> But the script doesn't give that.
  373. [13:29:40] <McNulty> and your Outlook example wasn't that either.
  374. [13:29:53] <trovster> No, it wasn't... but that is what I was given.
  375. [13:29:59] <McNulty> hm
  376. [13:30:23] <McNulty> What does drewinthehead's script output?
  377. [13:31:23] <trovster> I was checking plain text.
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  380. [13:40:23] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
  381. [13:41:18] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  382. [13:41:19] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  383. [13:55:32] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  384. [13:55:33] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  387. [14:07:46] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  393. [14:24:05] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  404. [15:34:05] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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  409. [15:55:28] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
  410. [16:00:20] * stuup (n=stu@62-249-234-122.no-dns-yet.enta.net) Quit ()
  411. [16:02:08] <pnhChris> this make the rounds yet? http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/design/how-to-use-microformats
  412. [16:03:41] <Phae> oh no, thats cool.
  413. [16:03:54] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2526P016.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has left #microformats
  414. [16:04:34] <trovster> Bit long, I skimmed it
  415. [16:05:28] <Phae> Well, it's not exactly aimed at the people in this channel, eh? It's good to see a thorough write-up though
  416. [16:12:38] <trovster> <p>Phone/Fax: <span class="tel">+61 2 9365 5007</p> is incorrect, isn't it?
  417. [16:13:02] <trovster> <span class="region">NSW</span> -- <abbr title="New South Wales" class="region">NSW</abbr> ?
  418. [16:17:54] <qid> yeah, I belive both of those should be changed
  419. [16:18:34] <qid> I'm not sure the region is explicitly wrong but it should be marked up with the abbr as you show
  420. [16:23:41] <trovster> class="email" should go o nthe link?
  421. [16:28:17] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
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  423. [16:28:21] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
  424. [16:28:58] <qid> yes
  425. [16:33:15] <qid> http://pastebin.com/775746
  426. [16:33:42] <qid> not sure about the intermixing of div/p/span, those might want to be reworked
  427. [16:33:50] <qid> depends somewhat on presentation though
  428. [16:34:08] <trovster> I wouldn't use the parapgraph, in my opinion it's not one
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  438. [17:00:23] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  444. [17:19:23] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  449. [18:03:40] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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  462. [19:06:49] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8287 * Adactio * (+193) Examples in the wild -
  463. [19:24:56] <Whafro> so is the h in hcard, hevent, hreview representative of "mu" ?
  464. [19:25:20] <qid> afaik it's supposed to indicate HTML
  465. [19:29:04] <kingryan> qid is right
  466. [19:41:41] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8288 * GdfsGersccza * (+18948)
  467. [19:44:58] <davecardwell> *spam* ^^
  468. [19:45:17] <davecardwell> KevinMarks / kingryan
  469. [19:47:27] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8289 * Brian * (-18948) Reverted edit of GdfsGersccza, changed back to last version by Tantek
  470. [19:47:34] <briansuda_> taken care of
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  473. [19:48:17] <qid> didn't that guy get banned already
  474. [19:52:35] <Whafro> on the technorati microformats searches, can you search for a given microformatted-entity based on anything outside the data contained within? Like, if I post an hEvent on a blog post that is rel-tagged, can I search for that event based on that tag?
  475. [20:04:12] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
  476. [20:06:20] <briansuda_> Whafro, their search is just a free-text search of known microformatted conent
  477. [20:15:32] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("good night to every<body>")
  478. [20:26:50] <Whafro> hmm, the notion that you could search for hEvents based on associated rel-tags would be amazing
  479. [20:40:32] <briansuda_> you should make some suggestions for an 'advanced' search
  480. [20:41:25] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  481. [20:41:26] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  482. [20:48:36] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  483. [20:51:56] <DanC> hmm... one of these things is not like the others... "product, business, event, person, place, website, url"
  484. [20:52:34] <DanC> people are doing reviews of urls? as in "it's a nice long URL; I particularly like the use of the colon character and the letters P and Q"
  485. [20:52:54] <DanC> how about ... website, webpage
  486. [20:53:16] <DanC> is a hotel a product or a business? business I guess
  487. [20:53:36] <kingryan> DanC: I think I've made the same suggestion
  488. [20:53:40] <DanC> ah... "If the item is also an hCard" that's my case.
  489. [20:53:46] <kingryan> people tend to conflate URLs and websites anyways
  490. [20:53:59] <DanC> so we should help them aim the gun at their foot? ;-)
  491. [20:54:57] <kingryan> that's why I suggest removing either the gun or the foot
  492. [20:55:07] <DanC> quite
  493. [20:55:34] <DanC> I've got some hotel data on http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/ ; I exported some PDA records as hCards...
  494. [20:55:51] <DanC> ... for a GRDDL use case/tutorial, I'm looking at turning some of them into hReviews
  495. [20:57:30] <DanC> dtreviewed is a little awkward; in the current organization of the page, the date is outside the hcard/hreview item.
  496. [20:57:44] <DanC> e.g. the Radisson SAS, Edinburgh http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/#_665
  497. [20:58:05] <DanC> I could use the include deely, I suppose, but I'm not sure the relevant code groks
  498. [20:58:23] <DanC> briansuda_, does http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/GRDDL/hreview2rdfxml.xsl grok the include deely?
  499. [20:58:31] <briansuda_> not yet
  500. [20:58:38] * DanC figured
  501. [20:58:58] <briansuda_> if you give me some data i can get that in this weekend
  502. [20:59:15] <DanC> er.. does the Radisson SAS, Edinburgh http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/events/#_665 count?
  503. [20:59:27] <DanC> oh... I see what you mean now.
  504. [20:59:58] * bewest notices Tantek is slated to speak at http://www.carsonworkshops.com/summit/
  505. [21:01:11] * DanC browses http://www.carsonworkshops.com/summit/ to look for connections to W3C's web apps WG... doesn't see many
  506. [21:02:04] <briansuda_> DanC, i had a look over the last few days and didn't find a single conforming hReview
  507. [21:02:20] <briansuda_> so i am hoping you can give me some valid data
  508. [21:02:37] <DanC> all the yahoo local stuff is broken?
  509. [21:03:30] <DanC> hmm... the carson workshop site isn't valid. I wonder if (a) the folks leading the summit don't think that's worth bothering or (b) the folks leading the summit don't talk to their webmaster.
  510. [21:03:38] <briansuda_> yeah, they the ISO date gets most folks
  511. [21:04:00] <briansuda_> and/or they don't NEST the fn inside an item... most people have <span class="item fn">
  512. [21:04:47] <cgriego> DanC: I decided recently that a hotel was a business.
  513. [21:04:50] <DanC> "item"? what's that? oh. hm. new to me. But I guess most of hReview is.
  514. [21:05:19] <cgriego> briansuda_: hreview2rdfxml.xsl will need the name() vs local-name() change.
  515. [21:05:24] <DanC> the hreview spec should give me a hello world example before giving me the schema, I suggest.
  516. [21:05:51] <briansuda_> cgriego, maybe, maybe not - we are playing around with RSS and XML as well
  517. [21:06:25] <briansuda_> item is the only required element inside an hReview
  518. [21:06:45] <briansuda_> inside that 'item' you need either a vevent, vcard, or a single 'fn'
  519. [21:07:04] <briansuda_> An example of a minimum hReview would be something like the following:
  520. [21:07:04] <briansuda_> <div class="hreview">
  521. [21:07:04] <briansuda_> <p class="item"><span class="fn">Lunch</span> was not as good as expected.</p>
  522. [21:07:04] <briansuda_> </div>
  523. [21:07:13] * briansuda_ is now known as briansuda
  524. [21:07:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  526. [21:09:43] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  529. [21:14:08] <cgriego> briansuda: would it need to be something like this? namespace-uri() = 'http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' and local-name() = 'abbr' and @title
  530. [21:14:28] <cgriego> that way any namespace prefix would work
  531. [21:14:37] <briansuda> yes, exactly
  532. [21:16:52] <briansuda> KevinMarks, for pingerati's Ping Receivers are those ONLY pings of pages that are known to have microformatted content, or are the pings for all submitted pages to the service
  533. [21:20:46] <KevinMarks> all submitted pages
  534. [21:21:09] <KevinMarks> as we are only indexing some microformats at the moment, and didn't want to inadvertently filter
  535. [21:21:36] <KevinMarks> If you want just, say, events.pingerati.net I cna do that
  536. [21:22:08] <KevinMarks> but the ping reflection is before the parser, so our parser being slow or buggy doesn't impact you
  537. [21:22:53] <briansuda> do you (can you) tell me any numbers? i'd like to start collecting this data, but i am worried about bandwidth, etc.
  538. [21:24:09] <KevinMarks> well, the flow of pings shouldn't be too heavy. the exception is when a new pinger joins and sends us back catalogue
  539. [21:25:46] <briansuda> ok. let set-up some stuff. When your pings are just GET requests correct?
  540. [21:25:49] <KevinMarks> the feteches of the urls for parsing is under your control, so you can throttle that down appropriatelt
  541. [21:25:55] <KevinMarks> yes
  542. [21:47:37] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  543. [21:47:38] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  546. [21:57:06] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.19-156.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  547. [21:57:07] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  548. [22:02:52] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
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  555. [22:44:50] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  556. [22:47:03] <csarven> anyone know if it is possible to grab a query string value from the current URI in XSL?
  557. [23:00:16] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  558. [23:15:03] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  560. [23:35:05] * briansuda (n=briansud@ACA1D0E4.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  561. [23:35:05] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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