IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:06:31] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [00:22:42] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [01:42:59] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [01:56:00] <mfbot>
[[profile-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-examples&diff=0&oldid=8380 * JohnPanzer * (+42) Contributors -
- [01:56:26] <mfbot>
[[profile-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-examples&diff=0&oldid=8381 * JohnPanzer * (+18) OpenBC -
- [02:18:53] * remi (n=remi@dsl-157-105.aei.ca) Quit ()
- [02:19:05] * bewest is having fun in #swig
- [02:51:25] <_->
bewest: moving in here. has anyone gotten the other direciton working. drag from iCal/Outlook to a webpage and populate form fields for submission?
- [02:53:38] <bewest>
yes, to some degree
- [02:54:21] <bewest>
_-: the popular thing right now is called X2V which converts hcards and things into ical data
- [02:54:33] <bewest>
there are some people who are writing the reverse: V2X iirc
- [02:54:42] <bewest>
DanC is working on that
- [02:54:48] <_->
my use scenario is moving users to a new XHTML/browser based app
- [02:55:02] <_->
and saving them the effort of reentering data
- [02:55:33] <_->
and eliminating hte need to match up people, since theyre only dragging it over when the context is already nkown
- [02:56:04] <bewest>
neat
- [02:56:09] <bewest>
sounds really interesting
- [02:58:13] <_->
i guess they can just reenter phone numbers and email addresses
- [02:58:53] <bewest>
you might look into windows' live clipboard?
- [02:58:55] <_->
unless theres intra-app bidirectional vcard drag'n'drop on osx/windows (ive no idea really)
- [02:58:59] <_->
maybe
- [02:59:03] <bewest>
have you seen it?
- [02:59:10] <bewest>
it's demoed with hcards
- [02:59:22] <bewest>
MS seems pretty committed to it
- [02:59:29] <_->
cool
- [02:59:59] <bewest>
they allow you to copy/paste datastructures in between apps... so copy/paste from outlook into IE or Firefox
- [03:00:23] <bewest>
I imagine if os x doesn't do that you could make a widget available?
- [03:00:28] <bewest>
dashboard something or other?
- [03:00:36] <bewest>
otherwise they can just type it :-)
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- [04:15:53] * marclaporte (n=marclapo@tikiwiki/marclaporte) has joined #microformats
- [04:15:53] <jibot>
marclaporte is Marc Laporte from Tiki CMS/Groupware
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- [04:20:05] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [04:52:16] <jibot>
Hixie is the iron fist of standards compliance
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- [06:23:18] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [07:01:10] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=8382 * Andrew * (+172) Implementations -
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- [07:25:51] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [07:55:29] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [08:00:37] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:52:49] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8383 * GdfsGerscczaa * (+19949)
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- [09:03:01] <mfbot>
[[Main Page-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=8384 * GdfsGerscczaa * (+19949)
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- [10:35:48] <Whiskey_M>
'lo
- [10:36:21] <jibot>
WildFox is Mr. KDOM. Co-author of kdom, ksvg and kcanvas.
- [10:41:16] * danja (n=danja@host85-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
- [10:41:16] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [12:30:08] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [12:30:39] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [12:31:33] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) has joined #microformats
- [12:31:33] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [12:42:49] <marclaporte>
salut Rémi!
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- [12:49:36] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [13:16:31] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [13:17:38] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
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- [13:54:41] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [14:19:24] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [14:30:57] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [14:31:46] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=8385 * Brickski * (+150) Examples in the wild -
- [14:34:22] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=8386 * Brickski * (+26) Examples in the wild -
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- [14:49:16] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [15:14:19] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8387 * Phae * (+0) moving expired events to "recent"
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- [15:30:06] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8388 * Adactio * (+119) Upcoming -
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- [15:36:12] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [15:57:12] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8389 * Adactio * (+13) Upcoming -
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- [16:04:44] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic Brighton microformats picnic]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic_Brighton_microformats_picnic * Phae * (+183) added a template for event
- [16:04:55] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic Brighton microformats picnic]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic_Brighton_microformats_picnic&diff=0&oldid=8390 * Phae * (+2) spelling mistake
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- [16:08:16] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8391 * Phae * (+0) Making link prettier
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- [16:10:37] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic Brighton microformats picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic_Brighton_microformats_picnic&diff=0&oldid=8392 * Adactio * (+951)
- [16:12:08] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic Brighton microformats picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic_Brighton_microformats_picnic&diff=0&oldid=0 * Adactio * (+1136) events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic Brighton microformats picnic moved to events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic
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- [16:15:53] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [16:16:11] <Phae>
gah, sorry. I'm being a muppet on the wiki. I've given up now.
- [16:18:12] <adactio>
LOL! I'm being an equal muppet... my first time creating an event.
- [16:18:25] <adactio>
I think it's all good now: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic
- [16:18:37] <adactio>
Want to add your name? ;-)
- [16:21:33] <Phae>
I will in a second.
- [16:21:37] <Phae>
I'm being told to fix a page first
- [16:24:09] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic&diff=0&oldid=8393 * Phae * (+37) Attending -
- [16:24:16] <Phae>
there
- [16:24:54] <adactio>
Yay!
- [16:25:54] <Phae>
I didn't realise that you were moving the template I made to the correct page, because I was doing it manually
- [16:25:59] <Phae>
I didn't notice there was a move option.
- [16:26:08] <Phae>
So much confusion!
- [16:27:01] <dglazkov_>
hi adactio
- [16:27:17] <trovster>
[17:27:17] -ChanServ- You do not have channel operator access to [#dconstruct] :9
- [16:27:32] <trovster>
adactio: Already added my name ;)
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- [16:28:41] <Phae>
ah yeah, adactio - hope you dont mind, but drew and I registered the #dconstruct channel
- [16:28:44] <Phae>
not sure if he told you
- [16:28:49] <Phae>
I set your name in the access list though
- [16:28:51] <adactio>
That's grand.
- [16:29:35] <adactio>
Trevor, I'm not seeing your name on the attendee list. Are you sure you weren't just previewing?
- [16:29:37] <dglazkov_>
what's d.construct
- [16:29:48] <adactio>
A conference in Brighton this Friday.
- [16:29:49] <Phae>
a grassroots web conference in brighton!
- [16:30:02] <trovster>
Microformats picnic ?
- [16:30:05] <Phae>
okay. i must be sleepy
- [16:30:09] <dglazkov_>
the diff btw BarCamp?
- [16:30:11] <Phae>
time to go home!
- [16:30:22] <Phae>
catch you guys this evening
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- [16:30:58] <adactio>
Ah, trevor, you're talking about the Upcoming event... sorry, I thought you meant the Wiki page.
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- [16:35:03] <jibot>
bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
- [16:41:21] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic&diff=0&oldid=8394 * Veeliam * (+71) Attending -
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- [17:14:16] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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- [17:44:23] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [17:54:40] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [17:54:57] <Phae>
hello
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- [18:06:19] <mfbot>
[[User:Adactio]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Adactio * Adactio * (+76)
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- [18:26:36] <bbieber>
Hey all... I've been searching all over... is there an eps/psd of the microformats logo available..? I've seen the buttons, but can't find one that fits our site.
- [18:31:33] <bbieber>
http://events.unl.edu/
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- [19:00:57] <drewinthehead>
greetings microformateers
- [19:02:54] <cgriego>
howdy
- [19:04:13] <drewinthehead>
how goes things?
- [19:05:07] <cgriego>
things go pretty good.
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- [19:24:06] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [19:55:41] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [20:08:48] <Phae>
tantek?
- [20:09:13] <tantek>
hi Phae
- [20:09:29] <tantek>
so I hear barcamp was a good time for microformats and much more
- [20:09:32] <Phae>
you're awake. I submitted an article. *poke*
- [20:09:35] <Phae>
yes. very!
- [20:10:17] <drewinthehead>
it was awesome, tantek
- [20:11:15] <drewinthehead>
Phae gave a good starter/overview session, then something on the d.Construct backnetwork (which is all XFN-based) and then i rattled on about parsing
- [20:11:40] <_->
haha. english please?
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- [20:11:41] <Phae>
I'm glad I watched your parsing one btw. I kinda got it, but it solidified it all a bit
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- [20:13:11] * tantek sees 77 comments pending in moderation for microformats.org
- [20:13:26] <Phae>
I'd moderate them for you, but Ryan didn't give me that option.
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- [20:18:33] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [20:23:43] <tantek>
Phae, I can't seem to find your post
- [20:24:59] <Phae>
oh
- [20:25:05] <Phae>
I saved it
- [20:25:10] <Phae>
Let me go look
- [20:25:43] <Phae>
Try http://microformats.org/wordpress/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=90
- [20:27:54] <tantek>
do you see a "Publish" button at that URL Phae?
- [20:28:07] <Phae>
nope, i dont have publish rights.
- [20:28:19] <tantek>
what buttons do you see at the bottom?
- [20:28:31] <tantek>
after the post editing field
- [20:28:43] <Phae>
save and continue editing | save
- [20:28:56] <Phae>
if you go to manage, it's listed about the publish articles
- [20:29:02] <Phae>
published*
- [20:29:25] <tantek>
yeah i see it there
- [20:29:41] <tantek>
odd that there is no workflow for the contributor to indicate a desire to publish, and thus putting it into a queue for moderation
- [20:29:48] <Phae>
above* I should sit at the desk when typing.
- [20:29:55] <Phae>
oh. that's... strange?
- [20:31:57] <tantek>
looks good. fixed one typo: presenentation -> presentation but that's it.
- [20:32:22] <Phae>
ah, my proof reading skills are dud tonight
- [20:32:23] <Phae>
cheers
- [20:32:30] <tantek>
your post is live ;)
- [20:32:36] <Phae>
yay!
- [20:34:19] * drewinthehead thinks 'heroic' and 'rugged' should be added to the definition of microformateer
- [20:34:53] <Phae>
they're very masculine traits
- [20:35:10] <drewinthehead>
heroic isn't
- [20:35:29] <drewinthehead>
"having the characteristics of a hero or heroine; very brave"
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- [20:36:07] <Phae>
whatever. it's rare to decribe a girl as heroic
- [20:36:12] <Phae>
it's like "handsome"
- [20:36:12] <drewinthehead>
how about 'strapping' ?
- [20:36:15] <Phae>
nearly always male
- [20:36:18] <Phae>
no!
- [20:36:22] <Phae>
strapping is definitely masculine
- [20:36:52] <drewinthehead>
hmm
- [20:37:18] <drewinthehead>
lusty!
- [20:37:31] <drewinthehead>
"healthy and strong; full of vigor"
- [20:37:36] <Phae>
lol
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- [20:39:33] <drewinthehead>
gosh, 60 members again
- [20:39:48] <tantek>
drew it was at 64 earlier
- [20:39:55] <Phae>
busy busy
- [20:39:56] <drewinthehead>
and 59 of them subjected to my inane drivel
- [20:40:18] * drewinthehead pledges to behave ;)
- [20:40:40] <Phae>
that's boring!
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- [20:40:50] <drewinthehead>
Phae: i saw a note about an XFN validator on the mashup board at barcamp - do you know anything about it?
- [20:40:52] <pnhChris>
you're on the wrong side of the pond for post holiday sillyness drew
- [20:41:08] <Phae>
no. I only saw that into the event
- [20:41:15] <Phae>
Did you catch who was giving the chat?
- [20:41:29] <Phae>
late into* the event
- [20:41:43] <drewinthehead>
i think it was more of a suggested project for the mini mashpit
- [20:41:53] <drewinthehead>
i wondered if anyone had done so
- [20:42:07] <drewinthehead>
should be easy to build out of the parts i have lying around here
- [20:42:13] <Phae>
oh! yes. that's where it was. I didn't hear anything come of it. You'd think adactio would have heard about if it had
- [20:42:19] <Phae>
with his special uF sensors
- [20:42:46] <drewinthehead>
pinging adactio
- [20:43:07] <drewinthehead>
hmm .. negative pong situation
- [20:43:39] <drewinthehead>
it would actually be easy enough to build in javascript
- [20:43:49] <Phae>
there's this thing called email.. heard of it?
- [20:43:56] <Phae>
yeah
- [20:43:58] <drewinthehead>
get all the links, then get their rel attributes and test for matches
- [20:44:06] <Phae>
XFN seems like an easy one to do really
- [20:44:09] <drewinthehead>
then test against common mistakes
- [20:44:11] <Phae>
it's so nice and simple
- [20:44:21] <Phae>
yea
- [20:44:56] <drewinthehead>
and list non-XFN matches for the user to catch anything else
- [20:45:41] <drewinthehead>
if we discounted other valid µF values of rel, there probably wouldn't be that many values left over
- [20:46:34] <Phae>
there's like.. 16? or something
- [20:46:50] <drewinthehead>
XFN values?
- [20:47:04] <Phae>
yeah. 18
- [20:47:10] <drewinthehead>
yeah
- [20:48:02] <drewinthehead>
so if we spotted other values which are commonly used for rel (licence, tag, bookmark etc) then we could present the others for the user to manually verify
- [20:48:30] <drewinthehead>
i don't think too many people are using rel with totally arbitrary values at the moment. some, but not many
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- [20:48:50] <Phae>
yeps
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- [20:51:28] <drewinthehead>
related: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2006-April/000082.html
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- [20:52:05] <Phae>
ooo
- [20:53:15] <Phae>
i always forget that i can read the dev list without being on it
- [20:53:22] <Phae>
i ought to
- [20:53:41] <drewinthehead>
there's not much traffic, but it's interesting when it occurs :)
- [20:55:53] <drewinthehead>
i think whenever validator discussions start up, they tend to get derailed by the complexity of the checking against class names etc
- [20:57:30] <drewinthehead>
but a simple rel value checker needn't get bogged down with that and could still be handy
- [20:58:07] <Phae>
yeah, it seems like a valuable effort to start at least writing validators for specific uFs
- [20:58:49] <drewinthehead>
at least trying to see how much can be done and prove useful
- [20:59:25] <Phae>
trying to write something that will validate all the "stable" formats at once is just a bit.. mammoth
- [20:59:43] <drewinthehead>
or even just one of the class-based formats
- [20:59:57] <drewinthehead>
but the rel-based elementals are much simpler
- [21:00:24] <Phae>
yea
- [21:00:37] <drewinthehead>
ultimately it'll end up being more like an accessibility checker - highlighting things to confirm rather than giving a solid yes or no
- [21:00:38] * Phae talks like she knows.
- [21:01:25] <drewinthehead>
so, when do you think you can have it prototyped?
- [21:01:29] <drewinthehead>
:D
- [21:01:35] <Phae>
heh. I'm just theory.
- [21:02:15] <drewinthehead>
actually, a lot of the effort would be UI
- [21:02:16] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:02:28] <qid>
someone call sam ruby and mark pilgrim
- [21:02:39] <Phae>
UI <3
- [21:02:49] <Phae>
See. Now you're on my platform again.
- [21:02:50] <Phae>
The pretty end.
- [21:03:02] <drewinthehead>
mark pilgrim has already looked at it, qid
- [21:03:24] <drewinthehead>
qid: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2006-April/000083.html
- [21:04:24] <drewinthehead>
i'll ping adactio and see if anything happened at the weekend, else i'll try and hack something together
- [21:04:47] <qid>
I wonder if a microformat validator should require valid (X)HTML first
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- [21:05:18] <drewinthehead>
the web requires valid (X)HTML first ;) :P
- [21:05:23] <Phae>
it would have to check for that first, at least
- [21:05:37] <Phae>
so it would be an XHTML validator and then a uF one
- [21:05:48] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.79.0.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [21:06:39] <drewinthehead>
the usual practise is to patch up a document into XHTML for parsing with an XML parser
- [21:06:48] <drewinthehead>
but not necessarily validating the XHTML
- [21:07:02] <drewinthehead>
the only requirement would be wellformedness
- [21:07:09] <Phae>
really? I think it would be good to make people fix their XHTML, otherwise it might be misleading
- [21:07:33] <qid>
is XHTML explicity required or is HTML 4 still ok?
- [21:07:37] <Phae>
the validator would say yea, your uF is write, even though the XHTML isn't
- [21:07:41] <Phae>
HTML 4 is cool too
- [21:07:45] <Phae>
strict is the important bit
- [21:07:47] <qid>
because XHTML has its own problems
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- [21:07:56] <drewinthehead>
XHTML is lovely.
- [21:08:02] <drewinthehead>
(but let's no go there)
- [21:08:16] <Phae>
and if it says the uF is right, and the XHTML isn't, then the author may find parsers/tools still won't work
- [21:08:18] * bewest assumes that notating (X)HTML means the X is optional
- [21:08:25] <qid>
well, let me rephrase that
- [21:08:25] <Phae>
yeah, i should have used the brackets
- [21:08:27] <Phae>
I'm being lazy
- [21:08:32] <bewest>
Phae: that's always the case, though
- [21:08:37] <qid>
XHTML is great, XHTML over HTTP is a pain
- [21:08:45] <bewest>
speaking of which
- [21:08:50] <drewinthehead>
Phae is correct - the strict is the most important thing
- [21:09:08] <bewest>
anyone using XHTML for data, not for necessarily publishable things?
- [21:09:15] <bewest>
as opposed to POX?
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- [21:09:40] <keithale1ander>
I used it once for storing data
- [21:09:49] <bewest>
I recently have come up with a couple of solutions using XHTML instead of POX
- [21:09:55] <Phae>
Who on earth would want to write something and not publish it?! :P
- [21:10:10] <bewest>
it meets with many frowns and sometimes shouting
- [21:10:13] <bewest>
"harder to validate"
- [21:10:18] <bewest>
or even "impossible to validate"
- [21:10:27] <bewest>
Phae: not necessarily writing..
- [21:10:29] <bewest>
Phae: just plain data
- [21:10:33] <bewest>
application data
- [21:10:33] * Phae was kidding.
- [21:10:35] <bewest>
hehe
- [21:10:53] <bewest>
especially when it's only consumed internally
- [21:10:58] <Phae>
yeah
- [21:11:03] <Phae>
I know there are cases.
- [21:11:14] <bewest>
I mean has anyone seriously tried this?
- [21:11:28] * Harry (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) Quit (Client Quit)
- [21:11:31] <bewest>
cause then I have to explain why I think inventing proprietary POX is a Bad Thing
- [21:11:36] <bewest>
and it's so difficult
- [21:11:53] <bewest>
and it does make it virtually impossible to validate
- [21:12:05] <bewest>
with POX you can make a schema
- [21:12:11] <bewest>
either it's valid or it isn't
- [21:12:26] <bewest>
sorry to get sidetracked...
- [21:12:48] <Phae>
it's okay
- [21:13:20] <bewest>
just curious if anyone else is coming up with similar results
- [21:14:05] * danbri_ (n=chatzill@host81-155-124-250.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [21:14:11] <bewest>
in fact, I designed this one xhtml document to help transform the parameters of one system into parameters a second system expects
- [21:14:22] <bewest>
as a kind of mapping document
- [21:14:32] <bewest>
it did not go over well
- [21:14:38] <bewest>
everyone else wanted POX
- [21:14:59] <Phae>
I think though that validators are going to be used by people who may not be aware of how important the strictness of the (X)HTML is.
- [21:15:08] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [21:15:14] <Phae>
So if we can help them to understand that, with also including the XHTML errors, if there are anyway
- [21:15:16] <Phae>
any*
- [21:15:23] <Phae>
Would be a Good Thing. :P
- [21:15:41] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:16:51] <bewest>
yeah, but I'm talking specifically about application/machine data represented as XOXO
- [21:17:03] <bewest>
like SQL2XOXO
- [21:17:25] <Phae>
I know. I was sneakily dragging the convo back up 30 lines.
- [21:17:34] <bewest>
in that case
- [21:17:48] <Phae>
no, it's cool. I'm just not knowledgable to add anything to your discussion.
- [21:17:51] <bewest>
I concur
- [21:17:54] * Phae waits for someone else to step in.
- [21:18:54] <drewinthehead>
i'll see how far i can get with that on the bus tomorrow
- [21:18:57] <drewinthehead>
a bus hack
- [21:19:31] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #microformats
- [21:19:52] <Phae>
Okay. If you get it spitting out something useful, I'll think of the UI.
- [21:20:06] <bewest>
Phae: you a UI person?
- [21:20:32] <Phae>
Somewhat.
- [21:20:37] <drewinthehead>
yeah - i'll interface with the document, you can interface with the user :)
- [21:20:48] <Phae>
I do accessibility and usability testing, so I have a good grasp.
- [21:21:24] <bewest>
ooOOOoo
- [21:21:30] <bewest>
where?
- [21:21:52] <bewest>
is that your primary thing?
- [21:22:29] <Phae>
Sort of. I got my job because I know how to do accessibility audits. Most of my day I'm doing CSS and things though, because well.. paperwork is dull.
- [21:23:04] <Phae>
I work for a design and marketing company, but it's mostly B2B
- [21:23:11] <Phae>
So no one sees it for the most part
- [21:25:27] * bewest is interested in usability/hci among other things but has no formal training
- [21:25:53] <Phae>
I did some HCI during my degree
- [21:26:29] <Phae>
I do like it. It's like, the practical side of design.
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- [21:30:24] <bewest>
I like trying to apply as many concepts as possible while designing user interfaces
- [21:30:35] <bewest>
but I am very bad about testing
- [21:30:58] * bewest still believes he can empathize with prospective users well enough to not do much testing
- [21:31:11] <bewest>
and it's hard to do testing
- [21:31:24] <Phae>
Yeah, that's a mistake sometimes. Don't try to apply "concepts". It's mostly rubbish. I try to design things my mother could work.
- [21:32:45] <bewest>
yeah, that's what I mean by empathize though
- [21:33:13] <Phae>
You probably are doing a good job.
- [21:33:23] <bewest>
well
- [21:33:35] <bewest>
I frequently know that I'm building something that people are going to have trouble with
- [21:33:53] <bewest>
but due to either time contraints or resources or knowledge I build it anyway
- [21:34:32] <bewest>
one of my hobbies to walk through the electronics aisle at stores and figure out which products are the easiest to use
- [21:34:44] <bewest>
and why
- [21:34:54] <Phae>
heh
- [21:35:02] <bewest>
a surprising number of electronics have problems with basic things... eject and power buttons
- [21:35:06] <dardarsauce>
intuitive design is suprirsingly sparse
- [21:35:22] <bewest>
when writely was new, I tried it out
- [21:35:28] <bewest>
then watched my mom try it out
- [21:35:32] <bewest>
she had such a hard time
- [21:35:37] <bewest>
I wrote a long email to the writely team
- [21:35:51] <dardarsauce>
the mom-test is crucial for ui design :)
- [21:35:53] <bewest>
then they wanted to know more, so I wrote them an even longer email
- [21:36:06] <bewest>
I'm not sure if it made any difference :|
- [21:36:23] <Phae>
ibet the people working on that though felt just like oyu
- [21:36:40] <Phae>
when you said you are constrained by various factors
- [21:36:47] <bewest>
yeah, maybe
- [21:37:05] <Phae>
i'm not saying it's an excuse, but its a common problem
- [21:37:06] <bewest>
still thought it was ironic since they bragged about getting usability awards for quicken or whatever
- [21:37:15] <Phae>
i spend my life arguing designs
- [21:37:18] <dardarsauce>
the toughest thing with UI is breaking the typical mold set by your predecessors
- [21:37:20] <Phae>
but if the ceo likes it
- [21:37:22] <Phae>
the ceo gets it
- [21:37:40] <bewest>
I'm starting a new project
- [21:37:56] <bewest>
the whole existence of the project is based around the fact that the CEO wants it
- [21:38:42] * shawn__ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [21:38:46] * bewest reads lots of usability stuff and orthogonal materials
- [21:38:51] <bewest>
how the mind works, by pinker
- [21:38:55] <bewest>
Tufte's books
- [21:39:01] <bewest>
evolution of technology
- [21:39:33] <dardarsauce>
you can learn a lot by watching girls shop for shoes :)
- [21:39:37] <bewest>
oh?
- [21:39:50] <Phae>
lol. what
- [21:39:51] <dardarsauce>
they go through a bunch of variables when choosing
- [21:39:54] <dardarsauce>
i'm serious :)
- [21:40:06] * Phae should remind everyone of the status of her gender at this point.
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- [21:40:10] * shawn__ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
- [21:40:13] <dardarsauce>
i've stood idle while shopping enough to learn to observe every environment i'm in
- [21:40:18] <dardarsauce>
oh :)
- [21:40:20] <dardarsauce>
hi
- [21:40:21] <dardarsauce>
heh
- [21:40:21] <Phae>
:P
- [21:41:01] <Phae>
It's fine. Go on.
- [21:41:11] <dardarsauce>
in any case
- [21:41:39] <dardarsauce>
style in general is a hard thing to look at objectively
- [21:42:01] <dardarsauce>
but watching a girl shop, i'll just use hte name jane as an example
- [21:42:10] <dardarsauce>
jane has a huge closet full of x outfits
- [21:42:19] <bewest>
I think I'd be too distracted by the girls :-)
- [21:42:45] <dardarsauce>
and every shoe she looks at has to fit some outfit, or combination of those outfits
- [21:43:01] <dardarsauce>
and add on the different styles of shoes, and the comfort factor
- [21:43:02] <dardarsauce>
colors
- [21:43:09] <dardarsauce>
patterns
- [21:43:11] <dardarsauce>
material
- [21:43:14] <dardarsauce>
yeah
- [21:43:18] <dardarsauce>
i dont know hwere i'm going
- [21:43:18] <dardarsauce>
but
- [21:43:32] <bewest>
there is a ##usability channel
- [21:43:51] <bewest>
only a few people in it
- [21:43:51] <dardarsauce>
i learn a lot from watching girls' shop (or maybe i'm just more bored than i want to admit i am while waiting at the mall with said girl)
- [21:43:56] <Phae>
I think there is some merit in saying women might just be good at this kind of thing. The few other geek girls I've met seem to be really tuned on to the accessibiliy/usability areas
- [21:43:56] <bewest>
it's only existed for a few months
- [21:44:41] <bewest>
I once spent a lot of effort into a menuing system
- [21:44:48] <dardarsauce>
there should be some harmony on how things look/feel
- [21:44:56] <bewest>
that I thought would have high affordance, and very monotonous/consistent
- [21:45:13] <bewest>
and then I realized that the heirarchy made it impossible to get the interesting features quickly :-(
- [21:45:17] <bewest>
still don't know what to do about it
- [21:45:18] <dardarsauce>
including web ui
- [21:46:06] <dardarsauce>
and women look for that harmony while they shop, and are able to visualize it, so yeah, i think i came full circle with my blurb
- [21:46:15] <dardarsauce>
or something :)
- [21:46:37] <Phae>
:0
- [21:46:41] <Phae>
:)
- [21:46:42] <Phae>
well done
- [21:47:06] <dardarsauce>
most of the active members on colourlovers.com are female heh, and they rock some awesome palettes
- [21:47:42] <dardarsauce>
and colors play into UI tremendously imo
- [21:48:48] <dardarsauce>
nothings worse than a harsh color scheme, you become subconsciously detracted from the ui before you even start using it
- [21:48:54] <dardarsauce>
harsh/bad
- [21:49:46] <Phae>
yeah
- [21:51:20] <dardarsauce>
i'm glad dhtml/ajax/flash is now allowing us to emulate any kind of interface, just too many people are overdoing it
- [21:51:52] <dardarsauce>
and losing track of the purpose of UI, ie to make using apps easier, not infinitely more complicated and flashy
- [21:54:07] <dardarsauce>
so yeah, bewest, building great ui is hard and there's never enough time to refine it to perfection :)
- [21:55:27] <Phae>
I need to say what the advantages of using microformats are without using technical terms.
- [21:56:43] <drewinthehead>
microformats are sexy. 'nuff said.
- [21:56:49] <Phae>
heh
- [21:57:37] <Phae>
oh tough tough
- [21:57:47] <Phae>
I don't know what's a properly technical term these days
- [22:00:04] <drewinthehead>
the important difference is that the information on a page can be be understood as the type of information it is - not just meaningless words
- [22:00:18] <drewinthehead>
so an address can be read as an address etc
- [22:01:04] <drewinthehead>
i think that's the crux of it in non-techy terms
- [22:01:15] <bbieber>
Yeah, provides additional context to the data on a page.
- [22:01:33] <Phae>
yeah...
- [22:01:50] * drewinthehead finds it very difficult to not sound patronising
- [22:02:01] <dardarsauce>
from every viewer of the page, whether in their browser or at the code level
- [22:02:29] <Phae>
I know. nicepaul asked me for a couple lines ot explain the advantage, that didnt use technical terms.
- [22:03:44] <Phae>
Microformats are advantageous because they offer a simple way to add extra meaning to a document that allows the information contained within to be understood for what it is (such as an address) by both humans and machines.
- [22:04:07] <bbieber>
.... and they're sexy.
- [22:04:15] <Phae>
and they're sexy.
- [22:04:20] <Phae>
microformateers... are sexy.
- [22:04:23] <drewinthehead>
very sexy!
- [22:04:25] <drewinthehead>
night!
- [22:04:26] <Phae>
That's what should be in the glossary
- [22:04:26] <bbieber>
:-) I think thats good.
- [22:04:34] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
- [22:04:34] <Phae>
okay. cheers guys.
- [22:05:38] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-7-205.adslplus.ch) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [22:10:29] <Phae>
alright well, I should go to sleep now too, so I'll catch ya later. night!
- [22:10:38] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
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- [22:22:27] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:23:03] <bewest>
we have a glossary?
- [22:25:44] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:25:44] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
- [22:27:56] * bbieber (i=bbieber@ucommbieber.unl.edu) Quit ()
- [22:38:43] <dardarsauce>
bewest: http://microformats.org/wiki/glossary
- [22:41:15] <bewest>
ooOOooo
- [22:43:11] <dardarsauce>
pretty extensive huh
- [23:07:48] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
- [23:09:01] * remi (n=remi@dsl-142-192.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
- [23:09:01] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [23:11:30] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
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- [23:17:18] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:29:18] * jrodgers (n=jrodgers@CPE000d93221ae3-CM0012c99f023e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ()
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- [23:55:27] * cgriego (n=cgriego@64.213.47.252) has joined #Microformats
- [23:55:28] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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