IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:20] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.91.138.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  2. [00:03:33] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  6. [00:30:48] <bewest> anyone have any idea on the number of hAtom posts out there?
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  15. [01:20:06] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  16. [01:27:04] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  17. [01:27:04] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  18. [01:27:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  19. [02:02:35] * dardarsauce (n=dardarsa@38.99.12.65) Quit ()
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  21. [02:10:19] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  22. [02:24:15] * terrell (n=terrell@207.7.107.15) has joined #microformats
  23. [02:36:07] <terrell> hello all
  24. [02:36:11] <terrell> http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
  25. [02:36:28] <terrell> says that +ZZ:ZZ is the form for timezone information
  26. [02:36:45] <terrell> i gather from reading through more documentation that Z is just as valid?
  27. [02:36:54] <terrell> <abbr class="foo" title="YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS+ZZ:ZZ">Date Time</abbr>
  28. [02:37:00] <terrell> can also be
  29. [02:37:07] <terrell> <abbr class="foo" title="YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ">Date Time</abbr>
  30. [02:37:28] <terrell> objections to making this a little clearer on the wiki? as an option that's valid?
  31. [02:38:50] <terrell> documentation = ISO8601
  32. [03:23:15] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  33. [03:23:15] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  34. [03:27:11] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-68-73-170-91.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has left #microformats
  35. [03:50:11] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  36. [03:57:48] * hax (n=hax@httpcraft/hax) has joined #microformats
  37. [03:57:51] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  38. [03:57:52] <hax> heya
  39. [03:58:59] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  40. [04:00:10] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  41. [04:00:34] <hax> an hcard in an html document should still be parsable, right?
  42. [04:08:33] <tantek> yes
  43. [04:10:10] <hax> also, if you need to include some information in the middle of the vcard that there's no vcard type for... like say part of my card has my university, major, and concentration in it... what's the proper way to do that?
  44. [04:10:24] <tantek> you can put extra stuff in the NOTE property
  45. [04:10:32] <tantek> that works well
  46. [04:10:50] <hax> tantek: what about that thing you show with tel... where there's "type" and then "value"?
  47. [04:10:55] * hax is reading the wiki
  48. [04:11:08] <tantek> wiki is a good thing to read
  49. [04:11:13] <tantek> check out hcard-examples in particular
  50. [04:12:46] <hax> ah, i see
  51. [04:14:22] <hax> so they use for the example of linking to yahoo messenger... class="url"
  52. [04:14:25] <hax> doesn't that seem kind of nondescript?
  53. [04:14:55] <hax> should that be inside the class="fn"?
  54. [04:17:13] <hax> tantek: also is it okay to put the class on any element? like would <abbr class="org" title="Freenode">FN</abbr> be okay?
  55. [04:17:36] <tantek> yes
  56. [04:22:09] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  57. [04:26:04] <hax> what software can i get that actually takes hcards found on pages and converts them into vcards? or lets me add them to my address book?
  58. [04:26:08] <hax> like maybe some plugin for firefox?
  59. [04:26:36] <DanC> keep reading the wiki, hax. it's in there ;-)
  60. [04:26:40] <hax> k
  61. [04:26:55] <DanC> if you can't find it in 5 minutes, let us know
  62. [04:26:59] <hax> k
  63. [04:27:08] <hax> oh, i'm retarded
  64. [04:27:09] <hax> how about that
  65. [04:27:32] <DanC> it's the "honey, where's the mustard?" "right there in front of you" syndrome. ;-)
  66. [04:27:37] <hax> heh
  67. [04:27:44] <hax> i didn't know the technical name for that syndrome
  68. [04:28:29] <mfbot> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=8409 * TerrellRussell * (+230) Current uses - added an alternative for UTC
  69. [04:29:05] <hax> i just found an error in x2v
  70. [04:31:54] <DanC> hmm... "... the case for hAtom" http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-04-0000/
  71. [04:32:17] <DanC> I'm keeping an eye on hAtom, especially big deployment pushes.
  72. [04:32:56] <DanC> a blogger beta cycle seems like a pretty good opportunity, indeed.
  73. [04:34:46] <hax> x2v doesn't recognize <address class="vcard">, like the hcard docs say it should
  74. [04:44:14] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-44.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  75. [04:44:15] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  76. [04:45:25] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) has joined #microformats
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  78. [04:48:54] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  79. [04:48:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  80. [04:49:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  81. [04:49:51] <DanC> hax, are you sure? I find that hard to believe, having read the code and tested it reasonably thoroughly
  82. [05:03:20] <hax> DanC: it doesn't
  83. [05:03:25] <hax> DanC: i just changed it to div and it worked
  84. [05:03:55] <DanC> what version of x2v?
  85. [05:04:13] <hax> the one on the site, whatever that is
  86. [05:04:15] <hax> the web interface
  87. [05:04:23] <DanC> I can't remember any code that could act differently between div and address
  88. [05:04:40] <hax> well, it does, test it
  89. [05:04:46] <DanC> hmm. I don't know what version is running there.
  90. [05:06:36] <DanC> there aren't any references to the address tag in x2v version 46196949e712 of Aug 14. And the only reference to div is when formatting text values.
  91. [05:06:45] <hax> well, that might explain that
  92. [05:18:00] <hax> DanC: thoughts?
  93. [05:18:40] <DanC> I'm too deep into something else to debug this carefully. I suggest you mail Brian and/or microformats-dev
  94. [05:19:44] <hax> k
  95. [05:38:46] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable205.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
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  97. [05:45:21] <tantek> greetings
  98. [05:45:28] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  99. [05:46:42] <tantek> XFN Poster captured for historical purposes: http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/236597069/
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  103. [05:53:24] <hax> hah
  104. [05:53:35] <hax> tantek: btw, apparently you're awesome (or so reading all these articles tells me)... so keep up the good work or something ;)
  105. [05:54:15] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  106. [05:54:19] <tantek> hah!
  107. [05:54:39] <tantek> hax, i've just been working on this stuff for a while, that's all.
  108. [05:55:17] * tantek still feels like he took way too long to come up with a lot of these ideas. If only a few years ago...
  109. [05:55:50] <hax> tantek: mind if i ask how old you are?
  110. [05:56:16] <tantek> hax, i think that is offtopic for this channel ;)
  111. [05:56:30] <hax> k, just seeing how long i had to catch up :p
  112. [05:56:46] <tantek> you have only yourself to compete with
  113. [05:57:25] <hax> deep
  114. [06:02:38] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  123. [06:21:51] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  124. [06:22:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  129. [06:49:21] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  134. [07:10:47] * danja (n=danja@host246-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  135. [07:10:47] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  151. [08:02:45] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  152. [08:08:08] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  153. [08:08:09] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  176. [09:52:17] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-9b985d9f19b86701) has joined #microformats
  177. [09:52:17] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  178. [09:58:10] * cori[s]|afk (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
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  180. [09:58:38] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  181. [10:12:54] * danja (n=danja@host246-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  186. [11:35:17] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  187. [11:55:21] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.74.107.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  188. [11:56:15] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) has joined #microformats
  189. [11:56:16] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  190. [11:56:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  191. [11:56:58] <briansuda> hax, i was reading through the IRC archives and you think you found a problem with X2V? do you have a link? and is the page valid?
  192. [11:58:32] * whafro (n=alter@c-68-50-228-204.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  199. [12:23:21] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  200. [12:26:22] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6fc84fe1ca78e5dd) has joined #microformats
  201. [12:26:22] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  204. [12:31:03] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  210. [13:35:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  211. [13:35:23] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  212. [13:38:55] <ajturner> hi briansuda
  213. [13:39:04] <briansuda> hello
  214. [13:39:08] <ajturner> I was curious why X2V just names the output as X2V.ics
  215. [13:39:18] <briansuda> it is fairly arbitrary
  216. [13:39:32] <briansuda> you can pass &filename=foobar
  217. [13:39:34] <ajturner> couldn't it use the <title> text?
  218. [13:39:35] <ajturner> ah
  219. [13:39:38] <briansuda> can change the output
  220. [13:39:45] <briansuda> the title might have & or / or spaces
  221. [13:39:59] <ajturner> can't encode those?
  222. [13:40:18] <briansuda> maybe, but the filesystem and the web urls don't always match
  223. [13:40:28] <briansuda> can win95 take % in the file name?
  224. [13:40:43] <ajturner> huh - don't know
  225. [13:40:45] <briansuda> and MacOS uses ':'
  226. [13:41:02] <briansuda> it is easlier to just use X2V.ics and let you change it as needed
  227. [13:41:14] <ajturner> I didn't see the docs that mentioned the &filename option
  228. [13:41:41] <briansuda> it was never meant to be used
  229. [13:41:42] <ajturner> btw - it's great, I used it to convert the FOSS4G calendar from my hCalendar conversion to a subscribable iCal
  230. [13:42:02] <briansuda> yeah, i just saw that on my RSS
  231. [13:42:16] <briansuda> somewhere on the wiki there is a note about using apache mod-rewrite
  232. [13:42:34] <briansuda> so you can keep old ics links, but mod-rewrite them to use my service or technorati
  233. [13:42:51] <ajturner> good idea
  234. [13:43:07] <briansuda> that way if one of us goes evil you only need to change the .htaccess
  235. [13:43:08] <ajturner> how much does your server get hit w/ the conversions?
  236. [13:43:14] <briansuda> cool urls don't change
  237. [13:43:26] * briansuda will check stats
  238. [13:43:26] <ajturner> I was going to do the same to the EuroOSCON schedule, but I just noticed it's already in ics :)
  239. [13:43:53] <ajturner> btw - I'll be at EuroOSCON, I see you're presenting on Monday?
  240. [13:44:58] * briansuda thinks i lost wifi?
  241. [13:45:00] <briansuda> nope
  242. [13:45:08] <ajturner> hrm, actually looks like only EuroOSCON 2005 is in iCal format
  243. [13:45:23] <briansuda> projects/X2V/get-vcard.php 838 hits this month
  244. [13:45:30] <briansuda> projects/X2V/get-vcal.php 3164 hits
  245. [13:45:38] <briansuda> the vcal is probably from iCal "subscribe"
  246. [13:45:48] <briansuda> yeah, i'll be at EuroOSCON
  247. [13:45:49] <ajturner> what is the processor hit with each usage?
  248. [13:46:02] <briansuda> i'm presenting on the 19th
  249. [13:46:26] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-220-216.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
  250. [13:46:27] <briansuda> the processor hit will vary depending on what and how many hCards there are
  251. [13:46:43] <briansuda> it probably is not very optimised, but no issues yet
  252. [13:46:55] <briansuda> one thing i DID implement, but took out was...
  253. [13:47:01] <ajturner> well - wondering if people start using this to pretty-up conference calendars
  254. [13:47:17] <briansuda> i survived the world cup, i can handle a conference
  255. [13:47:25] <briansuda> worldcupkickoff.com
  256. [13:47:50] <briansuda> when i got a URL i would do a HEAD request to get the filesize and mimetype
  257. [13:48:09] <briansuda> if it wasn't XML or HTML i wouldn't fetch it or if it was too big i wouldn't fetch it
  258. [13:48:23] <briansuda> the problem was that some servers would just hang on a HEAD request
  259. [13:48:34] <ajturner> nice
  260. [13:48:56] <ajturner> so you had to take that out?
  261. [13:49:06] <briansuda> all the source code is on hg.microformats.org for anyone who wants to modify or use the code locally
  262. [13:49:11] <briansuda> i did take it out
  263. [13:50:32] <ajturner> ah, ok - its just an transformation, which shouldn't be too bad of a hit, explains how you could handle WC :)
  264. [13:51:07] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  265. [13:51:07] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  268. [13:59:15] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  269. [13:59:30] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
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  273. [14:21:50] * amette (n=amette@mocube.net) has joined #microformats
  274. [14:21:50] <jibot> amette is http://amette.eu
  275. [14:38:05] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  276. [14:38:06] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  277. [14:45:09] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  278. [14:45:09] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  279. [14:47:25] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit ("Lost terminal")
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  281. [14:49:44] <briansuda> tantek, yesterday you mentioned Flickr Geo Microformats reached almost 3Million, does anyone have a link to confirm that?
  282. [14:51:13] <tantek> brian, they have a count on http://flickr.com/map
  283. [14:53:48] <briansuda> cheers, i read their blog post, but it only mentioned 1.6 million and that was a few days ago
  284. [14:54:46] * danja (n=danja@host15-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  285. [14:55:25] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/session) has joined #microformats
  286. [14:55:25] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  287. [14:56:13] * danja (n=danja@host170-218.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  288. [15:00:04] <tantek> briansuda, make that 3M+
  289. [15:00:16] <briansuda> i see, in less than 10 days!
  290. [15:00:17] <tantek> the page currently shows "More than 3,070,000 photos"
  291. [15:00:20] <tantek> yeah
  292. [15:00:35] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-ae99ca12e49b273d) Quit ()
  293. [15:00:37] <tantek> at this rate, "geo" will eclipse all other deployed microformats
  294. [15:00:53] <tantek> in a matter of weeks
  295. [15:01:00] <briansuda> i don't want to even think how many man-months it would take a single person to tag 3 million pics
  296. [15:01:51] <briansuda> yeah, flickr has what 4+ million users, so 4+ million hCards, Geo is hot in their tail!
  297. [15:02:19] <briansuda> now we just need to get this into Yahoo! Photos, which has 8+ Million users
  298. [15:05:28] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=8410 * Tantek * (+89) added 3M+ geo photos in 11 days stats
  299. [15:08:36] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #microformats
  300. [15:08:39] <hax> briansuda: umm, i don't have a public link, but i could make one real fast
  301. [15:09:06] <hax> briansuda: pretty much, take any microformat, replace <div class="vcard"> with <address class="vcard"> and it says it can't find any vcards
  302. [15:09:13] <hax> *hcards
  303. [15:09:48] <briansuda> that shouldn't matter
  304. [15:12:05] <hax> http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcheaphacks.info%2Fhcard-test.html
  305. [15:12:08] <hax> briansuda: it does
  306. [15:12:16] <hax> briansuda: i know it shouldn't, thats why i said i found a bug :)
  307. [15:12:43] * remi (n=remi@dsl-130-124.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  308. [15:12:43] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  309. [15:13:32] <hax> briansuda: if i changed that back to <div>, it works
  310. [15:13:42] <briansuda> hax, i am running everything through TIDY, and that might be corrupting the input since that is not even HTML
  311. [15:13:54] <briansuda> i'll take a lool
  312. [15:13:55] <briansuda> look
  313. [15:14:01] <hax> briansuda: it's html...
  314. [15:14:42] <hax> hold on, i'll stick a doctype in it and wrap the <html> tags
  315. [15:14:43] <hax> sec
  316. [15:14:49] <briansuda> i think at minimum you need a beging <HTML> and <BODY>
  317. [15:16:54] <hax> sec, validator is slow this morning
  318. [15:18:04] <briansuda> ah, address is inline, and you have a DIV (block) in that
  319. [15:18:13] <briansuda> TIDY is probably stripping the DIV and your FN
  320. [15:18:41] <hax> oh, dammit
  321. [15:18:42] <hax> you're right
  322. [15:18:55] <hax> sorry, that one was my fault
  323. [15:19:07] <briansuda> whew... i was worried it might be my code
  324. [15:19:08] <hax> i think that's how it was written in the wiki though... i don't think i just made that up :)
  325. [15:19:21] <briansuda> ok, then we need to change the wiki
  326. [15:19:29] <hax> let me check and make sure, i might just be crazy
  327. [15:19:55] <hax> nope, i'm crazy
  328. [15:20:32] <hax> briansuda: i could have *sworn* that validated last night... honest :)
  329. [15:20:41] <briansuda> make the change and lets see if works now?
  330. [15:20:46] <hax> yeah, it does
  331. [15:20:52] <briansuda> well it is well formed XML, just not HTML
  332. [15:21:07] * imajes_ (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  333. [15:21:09] <hax> briansuda: the greasemonkey scripts are apparently more forgiving
  334. [15:21:41] <briansuda> well, XSLT is just as forgive because it is only looking at XPATHs
  335. [15:22:01] <briansuda> i just have to run it through TIDY to make sure it is welformed before i can run the transformation
  336. [15:22:09] <briansuda> and TIDY also sort of VALIDATES
  337. [15:22:33] <briansuda> XPATH doesn't care that it is invalid HTML, it is valid XML for all its concerns
  338. [15:22:46] <hax> yeah, that makes sense
  339. [15:23:40] <hax> briansuda: in the dtd, it's because address has %Inline, right?
  340. [15:23:56] <briansuda> not sure
  341. [15:24:02] <hax> if it was %Block, i think it'd be okay
  342. [15:24:17] <hax> well, html is silly anyway :P
  343. [15:24:22] <hax> (sorry about the false alarm :)
  344. [15:27:44] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6a95208efd5c4168) has joined #microformats
  345. [15:27:44] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  346. [15:28:05] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
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  348. [15:40:21] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  350. [15:41:37] <qid> briansuda: you mean <html> and <body>
  351. [15:41:45] <qid> gotta love case-sensitivity
  352. [15:41:55] <briansuda> well for XHTML yes
  353. [15:42:03] <briansuda> but HTML i don't think it matters
  354. [15:42:15] <blueNine> Not as far as I know.
  355. [15:45:09] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-6a95208efd5c4168) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  356. [15:46:33] <qid> oh, for HTML it might not
  357. [15:46:40] <qid> I think it looks better lowercase though
  358. [15:46:53] <briansuda> just like you don't have to close those tags either
  359. [15:47:13] <qid> well
  360. [15:47:21] <qid> I think closing tags are required for some elements
  361. [15:47:26] <briansuda> things get slightly tricky because all XHTML is HTML
  362. [15:47:29] <qid> but not all
  363. [15:47:35] <qid> er
  364. [15:47:41] <qid> you mean all XHTML is XML?
  365. [15:48:30] <qid> I don't think it's possible to construct valid XHTML that directly maps to equivalent HTML without restricting the use of some elements
  366. [15:48:47] <qid> any self-closing tags, for one
  367. [15:48:49] <briansuda> all XHTML is valid HTML4
  368. [15:49:02] <qid> ...since when?
  369. [15:49:23] <briansuda> there are no new values in XHTML
  370. [15:49:39] <blueNine> Actually, the closing slash upsets the validator if you use 4.01 strict.
  371. [15:49:41] <tantek> briansuda, you have to obey Appendix C
  372. [15:49:50] <tantek> in order to make XHTML that is valid HTML4
  373. [15:50:18] <qid> exactly
  374. [15:50:31] <tantek> and ignore the short tags NET optimization in the DTD (forthcoming HTML4.01 errata if I have anything to say about it)
  375. [15:50:47] * tantek realizes not many folks besides Hixie will know or care WTF that means.
  376. [15:51:05] <qid> and even then, some things are technically different; I think <br /> in XHTML is supposed to translate to <br>/ in HTML if you actually follow SGML rules
  377. [15:51:26] <tantek> qid - see my note ;)
  378. [15:51:49] <qid> I hadn't heard of the term "short tags NET optimization"
  379. [15:52:05] <tantek> it's what causes what you are talking about
  380. [15:52:14] <briansuda> C.2. Empty Elements
  381. [15:52:14] <briansuda> Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements, e.g. <br />, <hr /> and <img src="karen.jpg" alt="Karen" />. Also, use the minimized tag syntax for empty elements, e.g. <br />, as the alternative syntax <br></br> allowed by XML gives uncertain results in many existing user agents.
  382. [15:52:32] <tantek> right briansuda
  383. [15:52:36] <qid> tantek: ah, ok
  384. [15:52:37] <tantek> Appendix C is your friend
  385. [15:53:06] <briansuda> OK, so not every instance of XHTML is HTML, but it is possible to map between the two
  386. [15:53:12] <tantek> correct
  387. [15:53:21] <qid> between Appendix C requirements, content-type issues, and other oddities I prefer to just stick with HTML4.01 Strict
  388. [15:53:27] <Hixie> HTML5 has already done away with NET, fwiw
  389. [15:53:32] <tantek> :)
  390. [15:53:36] <qid> briansuda: that is correct
  391. [15:53:42] <tantek> qid, nothing wrong with that
  392. [15:54:00] <blueNine> I stick to 4.01 until IE gets its act together.
  393. [15:54:06] <blueNine> *I'll
  394. [15:54:56] <qid> even then, XHTML has problems because XML has problems... the whole draconian error parsing/Postel's Law argument
  395. [15:55:26] <briansuda> fyi: X2V has to run HTML through TIDY so it is well-formed so it can be transformed
  396. [15:55:47] <qid> I'd rather not have my website become totally unreadable because I left in an & instead of &amp;
  397. [15:59:16] <tantek> qid, perhaps you can add those problems with XML to the wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
  398. [16:11:43] * musigny (n=gregoire@86.71.78.69) has joined #microformats
  399. [16:12:17] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  400. [16:19:43] * musigny (n=gregoire@86.71.78.69) Quit ()
  401. [16:27:29] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit ("leaving")
  402. [16:33:05] * Hagfish (i=trilluse@cpc2-bsfd2-0-0-cust413.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  403. [16:33:27] * bewest steps in and tries to catch up
  404. [16:35:20] <bewest> has everyone seen hyperscope?
  405. [16:35:41] <bewest> I think Les Orcharch has a XOXO2OPML kind of thing
  406. [16:35:47] <bewest> erm Orchard
  407. [16:40:22] <Whiskey_M> reading back
  408. [16:43:07] <Whiskey_M> hmm
  409. [16:48:41] <Whiskey_M> qid if you read logs then why not just leave it the site in HTML? Or run through the standard quirks mode which pretty much anyone else does of pseudo XHTML served as content-type: text/html ?
  410. [16:49:20] * Hagfish (i=trilluse@cpc2-bsfd2-0-0-cust413.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  411. [16:49:20] <jibot> Hagfish is Any of various primitive, eel-shaped marine fishes of the family Myxinidae, having a jawless sucking mouth equipped with rasping teeth with which they bore into and feed on other fishes.
  412. [16:56:02] <hax> bewest: i'm using microformats now btw :)
  413. [16:58:33] * remi (n=remi@dsl-130-124.aei.ca) Quit ()
  414. [17:07:44] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  415. [17:07:44] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  416. [17:08:57] * musigny (n=gregoire@240.72.119-80.rev.gaoland.net) has joined #microformats
  417. [17:10:43] * musigny (n=gregoire@240.72.119-80.rev.gaoland.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  418. [17:12:26] <bewest> hax: w00t!
  419. [17:14:38] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #microformats
  420. [17:15:13] <hax> bewest: yeah, my first assignment was to make a webpage that had my name, major, and email on it
  421. [17:15:31] <hax> bewest: so i'm trying to not go insane over here, so i put it in an hcard and learned something
  422. [17:16:14] <hax> bewest: fn, org (on, ou), email :)
  423. [17:16:14] <bewest> nice
  424. [17:16:21] <bewest> very good
  425. [17:16:23] <hax> bewest: also, greasemonkey is the tits, i don't know how i lived without it
  426. [17:16:23] <bewest> is it up?
  427. [17:16:32] <bewest> perhaps you'd like someone to look at it
  428. [17:16:33] <hax> bewest: yeah, but i don't wanna link it :P
  429. [17:16:39] <bewest> oh ok
  430. [17:16:43] <hax> bewest: it's right, it translates to a vcard all pretty
  431. [17:16:49] <bewest> oh ok
  432. [17:16:52] <bewest> so you tried X2V on it
  433. [17:16:53] <bewest> nice
  434. [17:16:59] <hax> yea, and greasemonkey scripts
  435. [17:16:59] <bewest> or something
  436. [17:17:01] <hax> all work great
  437. [17:17:05] <bewest> yeah GM is great
  438. [17:17:19] <hax> bewest: so on the forum post (this class is online), i offered to award bonus points to anyone who recognized the format
  439. [17:17:37] <hax> i don't think the prof will get it :(
  440. [17:17:38] <bewest> nice
  441. [17:17:50] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  442. [17:17:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  443. [17:18:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  444. [17:18:55] <hax> bewest: aha! someone engaged in dialog about it
  445. [17:18:56] <hax> lol
  446. [17:18:59] * hax has some fun with the class
  447. [17:20:27] <hax> bewest: heh, this could be not so bad afterall, atleast i'll get to teach people something
  448. [17:22:25] <Whiskey_M> 30 in for the drink on the 30th by the looks of things, should be good fun :-)
  449. [17:22:37] <bewest> yeah, most people taking that kind of claass struggle with the basics...
  450. [17:22:53] <bewest> well-formedness, proper escaping, et cetera
  451. [17:26:40] <hax> bewest: yeah, as is glaringly obvious looking at what they did
  452. [17:26:41] <hax> heh
  453. [17:27:40] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  454. [17:27:40] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
  455. [17:30:48] <hax> brb
  456. [17:31:06] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
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  458. [17:32:30] <qid> Whiskey_M: that's exactly what I suggested, just use HTML 4.01
  459. [17:33:33] <Whiskey_M> yup, pick and choose as appropriate
  460. [17:33:51] <Whiskey_M> although I might have missed something from the larger discussion ;-)
  461. [17:34:08] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit (Client Quit)
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  463. [17:35:23] * musigny (n=gregoire@86.71.78.187) has joined #microformats
  464. [17:37:55] <Whiskey_M> I think that's something that is potentially missing from the arguments in documents such as "plain old xml considered harmful"
  465. [17:37:58] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit ()
  466. [17:41:48] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=8411 * DavidOsolkowski * (+524) Added issues with draconian error handling, character encoding complexities
  467. [17:43:14] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=8412 * DavidOsolkowski * (-38) The wiki automatically links RFC references
  468. [17:43:54] <qid> unfortunately, the XML issues also affect XHTML, which microformats seem to advocate a lot, so someone might want to deal with that
  469. [17:44:30] <qid> and the very fact that some people advocate XHTML over HTML seems to work in favor of the POX crowd
  470. [17:46:41] <Whiskey_M> POX?
  471. [17:48:01] <Whiskey_M> depending on how you write your parser is whether XML is involved. If you want to get the benefits of XSL / XPath which were designed for XML then you're going to have to use it
  472. [17:49:29] <Whiskey_M> Brian mentioned tidy to get well formedness - it's a nifty tool, we use it behind our WYSIWYG controls for the same reason
  473. [17:50:18] * musigny (n=gregoire@86.71.78.187) Quit ()
  474. [17:51:05] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  475. [17:52:45] <Whiskey_M> I'm looking forward to a quiet chat over a beer or two on the 30th and hoping not to have to wear my flame retardent jacket ;-)
  476. [18:17:52] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  477. [18:17:52] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  478. [18:19:22] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  479. [18:21:03] * musigny (n=gregoire@86.71.78.224) has joined #microformats
  480. [18:21:55] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ("pub")
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  485. [18:54:25] <tantek> qid, in particular, I am an advocate of *compatible* (X)HTML
  486. [18:54:34] <tantek> XHTML written to Appendix C
  487. [18:54:59] <tantek> IMHO getting the file format right matters more than mime type tweakiness
  488. [19:15:39] <qid> well
  489. [19:16:12] <qid> browsers have quirks mode for goofy file formats, but if you serve it as the wrong mime type it can really screw things up
  490. [19:18:19] * danja_ (n=danja@host191-221.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  491. [19:24:10] <bewest> qid: a common objection :-S
  492. [19:24:20] <bewest> actually, most people object much more fiercely
  493. [19:31:02] * danja (n=danja@host170-218.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  494. [19:59:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
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  498. [20:32:37] * remi (n=remi@dsl-145-206.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  499. [20:32:37] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  500. [20:54:28] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  501. [20:54:28] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  502. [20:57:20] * danja (n=danja@host191-221.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  503. [20:57:20] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  509. [21:34:22] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  519. [22:31:58] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8413 * Tantek * (-7) shorten header for easier permalinkability
  520. [22:38:44] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-68-73-170-91.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #microformats
  521. [22:38:44] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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  526. [23:11:15] * remi^ is now known as remi
  527. [23:45:21] <mfbot> [[textmarks-syntax]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=textmarks-syntax&diff=0&oldid=8414 * Chris Messina * (+27) added page title
  528. [23:49:17] <mfbot> [[twitter-syntax]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/twitter-syntax * Chris Messina * (+1137) initial syntax add
  529. [23:50:09] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=8415 * Chris Messina * (+31) added twitter syntax
  530. [23:59:50] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.