IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:36:14] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
- [00:40:35] <amette>
Mr_Elusive ? Unreal Tournament ? - _That_ Mr. Elusive, who made the Quake3-bot-AI, cause Carmack couldn't do it???
- [01:16:20] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [01:21:12] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [01:26:05] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [01:26:05] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [01:26:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [02:22:13] * bewest wonders how quickly he can hack together an hAtom creator
- [02:28:30] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
- [02:29:25] <pnhChris>
to create what?
- [02:29:53] * iwaim_ (n=iwaim@gateway.alib.jp) has joined #microformats
- [02:31:36] <bewest>
an hEntry
- [02:32:09] <bewest>
optionally enclosed with an hFeed
- [02:33:17] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [02:33:38] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [02:36:52] <bewest>
tantek: there's a TODO note in the hreview creator that says "convert this to templates". what does that mean?
- [02:37:21] <tantek>
that's a good question
- [02:37:35] <bewest>
line 110 or so
- [02:37:45] <pnhChris>
i guess it be useful for modeling a post and see what options there are, but I'm not sure how much of a need there'd be
- [02:37:51] <bewest>
generating some html
- [02:37:57] <pnhChris>
certainly no harm in it
- [02:38:08] <bewest>
pnhChris: and it seems easy
- [02:38:24] <bewest>
pnhChris: and I plan on doing "other things" after
- [02:38:38] <bewest>
like porting a wysiwyg version to hyperscope
- [02:38:41] <bewest>
or something
- [02:38:51] <tantek>
did you check the to-do page on the wiki if it says anything about that
- [02:38:52] <tantek>
?
- [02:39:03] <bewest>
no :-S
- [02:39:05] * bewest checks
- [02:39:27] * pnhChris stares at his own todo list and sees 'build website' staring himself in the face
- [02:42:26] <bewest>
tantek: I don't see anything
- [02:43:41] * bewest wonders why mochikit was chosen
- [02:44:01] <bewest>
I see a templates.js in /lib
- [02:46:55] * bewest decides to ignore it
- [02:49:01] <tantek>
bewest i believe mochikit was chosen because it happened to be the one that Ryan found he had already downloaded to his machine and he was offline at the time.
- [02:49:13] <bewest>
ah :-)
- [02:49:30] * bewest always finds those kinds of decisions interesting
- [02:51:08] * bewes1 (n=ben@c-24-7-41-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [02:51:21] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [02:51:38] <pnhChris>
rel license usage question... page footer has a link to an internal page listing licensing info for the site (which may or may not link to CC) would rel="license" on the links to the block of copy on the site be appropriate? and what about from there to the CC page?
- [02:57:05] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [02:59:40] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [03:05:01] <pnhChris>
having trouble tonight tantek_ ?
- [03:05:19] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [03:05:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [03:08:28] * bewes1 struggles to resist the urge to add lots of whiz-bang features to the creators
- [03:09:35] <tantek>
bewest - actually, simplifying them would be even better
- [03:15:53] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [03:17:04] <bewes1>
simplify? the user experience of using them?
- [03:17:29] <bewes1>
I agree instead of filling out all those time fields on hReview creator, you should be able to just click on a cool calendar
- [03:17:45] <bewes1>
or a button that says "right now"
- [03:17:49] <bewes1>
heh
- [03:17:57] <tantek>
you mean on hCalendar creator
- [03:18:06] <tantek>
and yes
- [03:18:07] <bewes1>
I'm looking at hReview
- [03:18:15] <tantek>
well for "calendar"
- [03:18:17] <bewes1>
but I suppose the same could apply
- [03:18:32] <bewes1>
actually, it should just default to "right now"
- [03:18:37] <bewes1>
and you can click on the calendar to change it
- [03:18:54] <tantek>
it does default to right now
- [03:18:58] <bewes1>
oh
- [03:19:00] <tantek>
for the dtcreated
- [03:19:02] <tantek>
yeah
- [03:19:04] <bewes1>
in that case good job
- [03:19:07] <tantek>
er
- [03:19:09] <tantek>
dtreviewed
- [03:19:19] <tantek>
but it can still be simplified / semi-automated
- [03:19:27] <tantek>
e.g. if you put in a well known product URL
- [03:19:31] <tantek>
like amazon.com ahem
- [03:19:52] <tantek>
then it should prepopulate name of item, url(s), photo(s)
- [03:20:04] <bewes1>
you collecting these ideas somewhere?
- [03:20:32] <bewes1>
nevermind, I'm creating a list
- [03:20:35] <bewes1>
keep going
- [03:20:46] <tantek>
ideally
- [03:20:51] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do
- [03:21:54] <bewes1>
I'll replicate them there
- [03:22:08] <bewes1>
what about the URL?
- [03:22:12] <bewes1>
and why the ahem?
- [03:23:06] <tantek>
the ahem?
- [03:23:23] <bewes1>
(20:19:29) tantek: like amazon.com ahem <-- that :-)
- [03:24:23] <tantek>
oh that one
- [03:24:25] <tantek>
uh
- [03:25:56] <tantek>
for some reason i associate your name with a9/amazon is that not correct?
- [03:26:45] * tantek notices you don't have an entry here: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
- [03:27:40] <bewes1>
alexa :-)
- [03:27:45] <bewes1>
<.<
- [03:27:49] * bewes1 remedies
- [03:29:46] <mfbot>
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=8458 * BenWest * (+40) added BenWest|bewest
- [03:32:10] <pnhChris>
any thoughts on my rel-license question?
- [03:32:18] <pnhChris>
(maybe you missed that t)
- [03:32:31] <bewes1>
pnhChris: I think he missed it
- [03:32:46] <pnhChris>
pnhChris: rel license usage question... page footer has a link to an internal page listing licensing info for the site (which may or may not link to CC) would rel="license" on the links to the block of copy on the site be appropriate? and what about from there to the CC page?
- [03:46:23] <tantek>
good question
- [03:46:27] <tantek>
license transclusion
- [03:46:31] <tantek>
not sure how to make that work
- [03:48:29] <tantek>
i think rel-license requires direct links
- [03:49:28] <pnhChris>
it really doesn't say
- [03:50:38] <pnhChris>
not in any formal way at least
- [03:51:46] <pnhChris>
beyond a few of your year+ old comments on the issues page
- [03:53:57] <pnhChris>
i suppose i could avoid the issue by changing the footer copy depending on what page you may be on, but that seems much less friendly
- [03:54:28] <pnhChris>
mostly to me as the author :P
- [04:16:05] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [04:18:47] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
- [04:30:51] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [04:37:44] <Frederic>
morning
- [04:38:24] <tantek>
pnhChris - requires as in there is no other way that it is defined to work
- [04:38:42] <pnhChris>
defined where and how
- [04:39:08] <tantek>
in the spec
- [04:39:09] <pnhChris>
cause what i saw in the wiki was quite loosely defined
- [04:39:21] <tantek>
it says you put rel="license" on the hyperlink to the license page
- [04:39:38] <tantek>
which doesn't provide any wiggle room for anything indirect
- [04:40:02] <pnhChris>
particularly the 'what is a license' resource bit
- [04:40:28] <tantek>
it's whatever page the author thinks defines the license for the current page
- [04:41:33] <pnhChris>
again.. is it some text on another page that states "content X licenced under CC, all rights reserved for content type Y, unless otherwise stated, yadda yadda yadda"
- [04:42:21] <pnhChris>
or is it somethign more formal and "machine readable" content on the other end
- [04:42:23] <tantek>
so basically it is a custom license
- [04:42:37] <tantek>
machine readable?
- [04:42:50] <tantek>
people publish links on the web that go to other people readable pages first and foremost
- [04:42:56] <tantek>
that's what rel-license complements
- [04:43:55] <pnhChris>
i'd have to go back to re-read what your specific points were in the issues page... but you did bring up consumption of the license (link?)
- [04:44:31] <pnhChris>
but ok, so if we go with the 'custom license' scenario
- [04:44:52] <pnhChris>
the link to the specific cc license from there.. no rel-license?
- [04:45:13] <tantek>
chris what i meant by custom license was
- [04:45:24] <tantek>
either you link to an existing well known license (cc, mit, gpl etc.)
- [04:45:45] <tantek>
OR you link to another page which defines the license you want, probably on the same server etc.
- [04:46:09] <tantek>
the latter is what I meant by custom license
- [04:46:34] <tantek>
even if that other page just has prose that references a standard license somewhere else
- [04:46:36] <pnhChris>
issue is i'm not linking (necessarily) from each individual content type or project to the license, but instead describing what goes on globally for the site
- [04:47:45] <pnhChris>
e.g. a "some rights reserved" link in the footer that links to a description of where CC, GPL, etc is applied
- [04:53:32] <pnhChris>
ultimately i think its just easier to have multiple footers (really 2... a straight to CC for the blog stuff and a all reserved for the other projects) and just the global text for informative purposes and to cover things that don't have footers... like most of my little demo things... but it would seem easier to link everyplace to the one explanation instead of hoping people stumple upon it
- [04:54:36] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [04:55:06] <pnhChris>
buh bye :P
- [04:58:18] <pnhChris>
(if you're reading the logs.. and because i'm going to bed... its not something i'm agonizing over, just a case of my authoring 'style' maybe not meshing with the typical usage and figured I'd explore it a bit)
- [05:06:22] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
- [05:09:05] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [06:00:14] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [06:00:14] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
- [06:07:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@static-71-243-124-75.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:08:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [06:45:15] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:45:15] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [06:45:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [06:49:50] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable205.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [06:53:46] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [07:10:39] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [07:14:03] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=8459 * M * (+122) fixed alok's muddling of my entry
- [07:15:54] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [07:21:52] <bewes1>
ok, http://dichotomize.com/uf/hatom/creator.html supports the bare minimum...
- [07:21:57] <bewes1>
got distracted with other things
- [07:32:22] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [07:35:05] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8460 * BenWest * (+1483) bewest's todo
- [07:37:31] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8461 * BenWest * (-3) Ben West (bewest) -
- [07:38:16] <bewes1>
gah how I hate wiki syntax
- [07:47:18] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [07:49:46] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [07:55:22] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8462 * BenWest * (+96) /Use Amazon's ECS to pull in information about products when there is an ASIN in the item URI
- [08:18:07] * Harry (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) has joined #microformats
- [08:19:53] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
- [08:23:04] * Whiskey_MM (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:23:08] <Whiskey_MM>
'lo
- [08:25:25] * bunny_RSI is now known as bunnywabbit_
- [08:41:28] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [08:41:28] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [08:41:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [08:42:24] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #microformats
- [08:44:24] <bewest>
tantek: stupid hatom creator http://dichotomize.com/uf/hatom/creator.html
- [08:45:42] <bewest>
tantek: re pulling product item photos
- [08:46:09] <bewest>
tantek: amazon has a free service called ECS (I forget what that stands for) which allows you to pull product info and photos
- [08:47:02] <bewest>
I might poke around into the availability of getting a JSON output format for that
- [08:49:50] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=8463 * ChristopheDucamp * (+925) Ajoutez les vôtres ici - ajout traduction déf Alok Jain à vérifier
- [08:51:03] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
- [08:51:21] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=8464 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Alok Jain -
- [09:02:23] * Harry (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [09:09:46] * Whiskey_MM (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [09:10:38] * BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:12:39] * BenWard (n=BenWard@cpc3-cmbg2-0-0-cust58.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Client Quit)
- [09:14:25] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
- [09:16:30] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:19:08] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
- [09:20:16] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:20:23] <Whiskey_M>
'lo (again)
- [09:36:28] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-57-31.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
- [09:40:09] <bewest>
tantek: getting your name right in windows -> cygwin -> ssh -> vim -> webserver -> client is driving me crazy.
- [09:54:14] * bewest thought implementations shouldn't implement w3c working drafts and wonders how a draft is supposed to become a recommendation if there are supposed to be products shipping that implement the draft
- [10:02:41] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [10:02:42] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [10:20:37] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:27:10] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
- [10:28:13] * imajes (n=imajes@cpc2-ware3-0-0-cust617.lutn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
- [10:36:42] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [10:44:45] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [10:44:45] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [10:44:48] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [10:44:48] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [10:45:26] <Whiskey_M>
morning trovster :) - meant to ask, how was Geek in the park?
- [10:45:42] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:45:53] <trovster>
I think it went quite well.. about 40ish people turned up, so OK
- [10:46:48] <Whiskey_M>
cool, Patrick and Bruce seemed to enjoy their "pub stand-up" from comments :-)
- [10:47:24] <trovster>
waffled on for hours!!
- [10:47:42] <Whiskey_M>
I hope good waffle though ;-)
- [10:55:47] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [11:29:44] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
- [11:29:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [11:29:44] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [11:46:46] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [11:57:38] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [11:57:56] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
- [11:57:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [11:59:22] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic&diff=0&oldid=8465 * Adactio * (+466) Photos -
- [12:06:30] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [12:06:45] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [12:36:04] <Whiskey_M>
'lo Phae
- [12:37:41] <Phae>
hey
- [12:38:00] <Whiskey_M>
how goes?
- [12:38:06] <Phae>
not too bad, thank you.
- [12:38:13] <Whiskey_M>
cool :)
- [12:42:50] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [13:11:20] * dtonyd (n=wam@60.191.58.178) has joined #microformats
- [13:19:53] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.27.141.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:22:24] * dtonyd (n=wam@60.191.58.178) has left #microformats
- [13:26:39] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [13:36:50] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
- [13:36:51] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
- [13:47:05] <drewinthehead>
greetings
- [13:47:16] <Whiskey_M>
hey drew :)
- [13:47:23] <drewinthehead>
hey Whiskey_M
- [13:47:27] <drewinthehead>
how's it going?
- [13:48:28] <Whiskey_M>
it's sunday, it's a nice day and as per normal I'm in work :-S (actually my own fault, I finished server maintenance hours ago - now putting together an s5 presentation on something we're working on)
- [13:48:39] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [13:49:13] <drewinthehead>
i'm hoping to make some improvements to the rel-lint bookmarklet thing i was hacking on last week
- [13:49:28] <Whiskey_M>
cool :-)
- [13:49:40] <Phae>
hi drew
- [13:49:47] <drewinthehead>
hey Phae :)
- [13:49:56] <Phae>
did you have a good weekend?
- [13:50:47] <drewinthehead>
yeah - a great time :)
- [13:50:57] <drewinthehead>
i'm working through the podcast stuff now
- [13:51:12] <Phae>
great :)
- [13:52:50] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:52:50] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [13:53:03] <drewinthehead>
and you?
- [13:54:01] <Phae>
I had a great time. I stuck around yesterday and we had a BBQ down on the beach
- [13:54:24] <Phae>
I need to work out what I want to write about the uF picnic for the MF blog next
- [13:54:51] <Phae>
Need to find a photo from someones set that sums it up well
- [13:54:53] <ajturner>
can anyone recommend a good S5 editor?
- [13:56:39] <drewinthehead>
notepad? :D
- [13:56:47] <ajturner>
heh
- [13:57:04] <ajturner>
actually just trying OmniOutliner with S5 export seems "fairly" decent
- [13:57:09] <ajturner>
image placement is a pain
- [14:00:40] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
- [14:11:04] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.5/undefined]")
- [14:15:25] <Whiskey_M>
I hate documentation :-S
- [14:16:27] <Whiskey_M>
time for a cig --- http://sxframework.redantdev.com/pres/ if anyone wants to be bored
- [14:18:06] * Zeo (n=zeo@218.111.50.1) has joined #microformats
- [14:39:07] * ChrisK (n=helios@fof.durge.org) has joined #microformats
- [15:03:04] * tantek scrolls up
- [15:03:35] <tantek>
bewest,re: w3c, working drafts, see candidate recommendation phase
- [15:06:31] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [15:07:31] <tantek>
ajturner, since when does OmniOutliner export S5? and which version of S5 does it export?
- [15:09:47] <ajturner>
tantek - OO has a plugin that works - it exports v1.13b
- [15:10:11] <ajturner>
see: http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnioutliner/extras/content.html
- [15:10:20] <ajturner>
doesn't handle images - unfortunately
- [15:10:41] <ajturner>
and I had to modify the XSL to use ui/ for directories, but other than that, seems fine
- [15:11:21] <ajturner>
is there a way to get the # of WP blogs that are pinging technorati?
- [15:13:42] * darkfate_ (i=darkfate@dialup-4.245.197.39.Dial1.Stamford1.Level3.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:13:46] <darkfate_>
omg
- [15:13:57] <Whiskey_M>
?
- [15:14:06] <darkfate_>
nothing
- [15:14:10] <darkfate_>
came from #wordpress
- [15:15:00] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:17:26] <Whiskey_M>
tantek - I don't know whether you're even interested, or wish to consider what's on the wiki - but any thoughts on: http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
- [15:26:11] <tantek>
i don't understand the purpose of it
- [15:26:31] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
- [15:26:32] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [15:26:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [15:28:05] <tantek>
the car/bicycle analogy is so flawed (like most analogies) it is not even worth refuting
- [15:30:03] <Whiskey_M>
actually I saw the other argument equally as flawed, however I appreciate the analogy isn't a great one
- [15:31:05] <gsnedders>
"Microformats is leveraging the approach that is both working better and frankly dominating in practice on the Web." - Even if it's dominating, it doesn't mean it's the best way.
- [15:31:28] <gsnedders>
that's the first flaw I see in that page.
- [15:32:27] <Whiskey_M>
it's all about being fit for purpose, microformats are a great enabling technology for the semantic web - they open up semantisism for so many more people which is fantastic. But that doesn't mean XML is awful, I wanted to put it on a talk page because that XML is awful seems to be a commonly held view
- [15:33:08] <gsnedders>
XML is completely inappropriate for what microformats is doing
- [15:33:20] <gsnedders>
that doesn't mean to say there aren't appropriate uses.
- [15:33:30] <Whiskey_M>
agreed, therefore the point - "fit for purpose"
- [15:34:45] <Whiskey_M>
the trouble is the main page is there which doesn't make that clear, somewhat confrontational
- [15:35:07] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [15:35:14] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [15:35:29] <gsnedders>
Also, that article effectively says XHTML (served as XML) is bad.
- [15:36:48] <Whiskey_M>
well at the present time given user agent support for application/xml+xhtml that could be an argument
- [15:37:13] <tantek>
whiskey - it is not a matter of support
- [15:37:14] <gsnedders>
it effectively says anything served as XML is bad.
- [15:37:28] <gsnedders>
whether it be XHTML, Atom, or something else.
- [15:37:32] <tantek>
it is a matter of problems with the definition of the model
- [15:38:04] <Whiskey_M>
in what regard?
- [15:38:06] <tantek>
even if there was widespread support of what is documented so far, it would still be far more flawed/fragile than HTML
- [15:38:16] <Whiskey_M>
ok
- [15:38:25] <tantek>
and another thing, WSDL/SOAP have nothing to do with the "Web"
- [15:38:33] <Whiskey_M>
what?
- [15:38:40] <tantek>
"Web services" are not web like at all
- [15:38:45] <tantek>
complete misnomer
- [15:38:52] <tantek>
pure marketing, nothing more
- [15:38:52] <Whiskey_M>
they are not web pages, that doesn't mean they aren't web
- [15:38:54] <gsnedders>
they're never used by the end user, for one
- [15:39:09] <gsnedders>
remember the web isn't the same as the internet
- [15:39:13] <tantek>
Web Services are not "web", they are merely HTTP services"
- [15:39:42] <tantek>
there is NOTHING web-like about them
- [15:40:04] <Whiskey_M>
except they share the same application protocol
- [15:40:45] <gsnedders>
the web doesn't cover everything that uses HTTP
- [15:40:51] <tantek>
no. they share the same *transport* protocol
- [15:40:55] <tantek>
right gsnedders
- [15:41:23] <Whiskey_M>
the split comes with one thing that's made very clear on the site, microformats are for humans first, XML is for computers first
- [15:42:05] <Whiskey_M>
tan, transport protocol for http I believe (don't have to deal with this day to day), is tcp rather than udp
- [15:43:05] <tantek>
they are both transport protocols
- [15:43:33] <Whiskey_M>
back onto topic - what I was getting at is that just because XML is computer first doesn't mean that it's a bad thing, it just has to be considered within the bounds of what is appropriate.
- [15:44:11] <tantek>
actually it does mean it is a bad thing, in so much as it is far more suboptimal for any kind of *human* content publishing, sharing etc.
- [15:44:23] <tantek>
which is what the *Web* is about
- [15:45:25] <tantek>
what many don't realize is that "humans first" applies to nearly *any* data format that contains human generated/edited information
- [15:45:34] <tantek>
including preferences files for example
- [15:46:11] <Whiskey_M>
and if the editor they use generates wellformed xml?
- [15:46:39] <tantek>
then use XHTML
- [15:46:42] <Whiskey_M>
even tails uses tidy to get xml benefits
- [15:47:05] <Whiskey_M>
xhtml uses xml formatting and rules
- [15:47:05] <tantek>
on the *consuming* side yes
- [15:47:23] <tantek>
on the publishing side it is not a reasonable expectations
- [15:49:12] <Whiskey_M>
no, you're right - it's not a reasonable expectation to expect everyone hand coding sites to always generate well formed code or to produce rdf and owl to have their content readable
- [15:49:42] <tantek>
anyway, in short, whiskey, that talk page is pretty worthless (very poor arguments, examples, analogies etc.), unless you want to document common misconceptions / faqs to be answered, which may be of some utility, if these are actual arguments you have heard from XML-folks. in that case it would be more appropriate as a list of questions, and not just "isn't it true that... ?" style questions (which are not really question
- [15:51:17] <Whiskey_M>
the trouble is the original page is just as worthless to anyone that does work with XML daily. It sounds like a list of arguments from people that have already made up their mind.
- [15:54:15] <Whiskey_M>
and the trouble with that is it puts people off of what is a fantastic concept
- [15:54:31] <tantek>
Whiskey_M, that may be, but frankly, it is not clear that the energy required to change the minds of people who work in XML daily is worth the time to document them. That page is for people that are undecided or already productive web authors/developers, to help have them avoid falling into the trap of trying to make XML work on the Web.
- [15:55:24] <gsnedders>
then what happens to XML formats that are already popular like RSS and Atom?
- [15:55:40] <tantek>
RSS in practice is not XML
- [15:55:46] <Whiskey_M>
why?
- [15:56:08] <tantek>
in practice it is tag soup
- [15:56:28] <gsnedders>
I haven't seen that many illformed feeds
- [15:56:32] <Whiskey_M>
tantek, are you rallying against XML or RDF/OWL
- [15:56:47] <tantek>
they both have different sets of problems
- [15:57:06] <tantek>
for the purposes of authoring/publishing/sharing human-related content, which nearly all content is
- [15:57:52] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-44.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
- [15:57:53] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [15:58:05] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-44.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [15:58:52] <gsnedders>
there are plenty of wacky implementations of RSS, but most are at least well-formed XML
- [15:59:08] <gsnedders>
almost all are, in my experience.
- [15:59:13] <tantek>
gsnedders, anyone who builds tools that deal with millions of feeds knows plenty both about invalid feeds and inconsistently valid feeds
- [15:59:38] <tantek>
gsnedders, more are well-formed than valid, but there are *plenty* that are consistently not even well-formed
- [16:00:00] <tantek>
this is all well-trodden ground, go read up on Mark Pilgrims's discussions about the FeedParser etc.
- [16:00:10] <gsnedders>
what annoys me is the annoyingly invalid feeds
- [16:00:23] <gsnedders>
things like having months in other languages for the dates.
- [16:00:57] <Whiskey_M>
publishing tools need to improve for those
- [16:01:32] <gsnedders>
I can't remember what it was, but some major French site had both the months and day names in French.
- [16:04:24] <gsnedders>
even the latest ALA was in breach of the RSS 2.0 spec when it launched
- [16:05:08] <Whiskey_M>
that is the trouble with people finding the RSS 2.0 standard hard to follow (not suprising really)
- [16:05:27] <gsnedders>
easier to follow than the Atom drafts, IMO
- [16:06:04] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [16:06:19] <Whiskey_M>
where we syndicate we mainly do so in rss, not had a look at atom
- [16:06:26] <gsnedders>
suffers from unclarity, though
- [16:06:32] <gsnedders>
(the RSS spec)
- [16:06:42] <Whiskey_M>
quelle change ;)
- [16:07:24] <gsnedders>
I've got more experience implementing a parser than creating the actual feed.
- [16:08:26] <ajturner>
I think thats probably common for people in this channel
- [16:08:28] <ajturner>
:)
- [16:13:30] <Whiskey_M>
ug, just checked out what some different people do on the channel, I would by apperances be the oldest fart here ;)
- [16:14:22] <Phae>
Age isn't terribly relevant, so don't worry. :)
- [16:14:41] <Whiskey_M>
tell that to my knees ;)
- [16:15:01] <gsnedders>
Whiskey_M: I'd probably be the youngest… and quite possible the illest :(
- [16:15:16] <Whiskey_M>
more summer cold going around then
- [16:15:31] <gsnedders>
effect of school starting again, yeah :P
- [16:15:37] <gsnedders>
I've also had CFS for over a year
- [16:15:39] <Whiskey_M>
just in time ;)
- [16:16:20] <mfbot>
[[Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=8466 * Tantek * (+805) needs rewriting and moving
- [16:16:22] <gsnedders>
and being ill for over a year really does suck
- [16:17:44] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
- [16:18:59] <Frederic>
re
- [16:21:07] <Whiskey_M>
After reading that I'm off to the pub. Tantek, this is meant as a sigh rather than anything nasty since I really think what is going on is a good idea and that's not lip service I really do mean it; but at times you can be a complete one-eyed *"�$""!"�$!".
- [16:21:12] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ("pub")
- [16:22:01] <tantek>
the arguments are worthless unless they help us move forward, that is the bottom line
- [16:22:33] <tantek>
and thus i've noted what needs to happen to that page if you or others wish to move forward with that effort
- [16:53:55] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable205.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [16:53:55] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [17:02:55] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [17:12:35] * drewinthehead stirs
- [17:12:45] <drewinthehead>
i nice quiet sunday afternoon, i see ;)
- [17:20:43] <Phae>
:)
- [17:30:27] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
- [17:32:32] * Hagfish (i=trilluse@cpc2-bsfd2-0-0-cust413.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [17:35:03] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #microformats
- [17:38:21] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [17:45:45] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [17:49:54] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-226-157-119.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
- [17:54:10] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@63.118.138.81) has joined #microformats
- [17:54:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [18:03:59] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [18:04:39] <gsnedders>
drewinthehead: yeah, very quiet :)
- [18:05:13] * gsnedders goes to cook supper
- [18:06:23] <drewinthehead>
mmm supper
- [18:06:33] * drewinthehead just had a nice pot roasted chicken
- [18:06:38] <gsnedders>
supper cooked by 14 year olds…
- [18:06:39] <gsnedders>
mmm…
- [18:07:21] <drewinthehead>
not cooked by me...
- [18:07:24] * gsnedders wonders if anyone younger than him is in this channel
- [18:07:39] <drewinthehead>
if it was down to me it'd be sweet and sour chicken balls and chips or something ;)
- [18:08:11] <drewinthehead>
i think you're probably the youngest so far, gsnedders, and thus the most awesomest.
- [18:09:18] <gsnedders>
"1G Sep 10 16:19 /usr/local/apache2/logs/error_log" - maybe that's a bit big…
- [18:10:53] * drewinthehead is reminded to go check his logs
- [18:11:16] <gsnedders>
that's the problem on my dev box, I have the error reporting of PHP set up rather high, so I get a lot in the logs.
- [18:11:50] * darkfate_ (i=darkfate@dialup-4.245.197.39.Dial1.Stamford1.Level3.net) Quit ("Where is my spoon?")
- [18:12:04] <drewinthehead>
40Mb .
- [18:12:13] <drewinthehead>
nothing to worry about yet
- [18:13:03] * gsnedders goes to deal with the supper, finally
- [18:22:56] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@63.118.138.81) has joined #microformats
- [18:23:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [18:24:14] * trovster_ (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:25:58] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
- [18:35:16] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:35:16] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [18:42:37] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [18:50:06] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
- [18:50:22] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [18:50:30] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:50:43] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [19:05:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [19:19:22] <gsnedders>
mm…
- [19:19:26] <gsnedders>
overcooked potatos…
- [19:20:05] <gsnedders>
the rest was fine, though
- [19:21:01] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [19:26:37] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [19:27:45] * trovster_ is now known as trovster
- [19:35:41] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [19:52:27] <drewinthehead>
i was hoping to do all sorts of mF things this evening, but instead i'm being sysadmin for my dad. hrmph.
- [20:05:54] <gsnedders>
drewinthehead: I was hoping to have Fbug 1.0 RC1 out on June 1st. It remains pre-alpha :)
- [20:05:56] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [20:06:28] <drewinthehead>
let's not go down that route, gsnedders - far too drepressing
- [20:06:52] * gsnedders thinks of his past year…
- [20:08:21] <drewinthehead>
it's when the domain registrations comes round that it really hurts ...
- [20:10:03] * gsnedders has had CFS for the past year
- [20:14:33] <drewinthehead>
Phae: i just noticed that our microformats vevent clashes with the Great British Cheese Festival
- [20:14:46] <drewinthehead>
do you think we'll need to reschedule?
- [20:14:49] <Phae>
!
- [20:14:51] <Phae>
oh no!
- [20:15:03] <Phae>
I was just saying to Simon and Nat that that sounded like fun.
- [20:15:12] <drewinthehead>
yup :)
- [20:15:17] <Phae>
:O
- [20:15:29] <drewinthehead>
it runs both days though - so we might go up on the sunday
- [20:15:47] <Phae>
That'd be good.
- [20:16:06] <Phae>
I mean, the actual event doesn't really clash, since the cheese goers and uFers aren't really the same people, bar you and I.
- [20:16:25] <drewinthehead>
true
- [20:16:29] <drewinthehead>
mmm cheese
- [20:16:31] <Phae>
And I wasn't really planning to do 2 days of cheese.
- [20:16:53] <drewinthehead>
no, that would be irresponsible
- [20:16:56] <Phae>
heh
- [20:17:07] <Phae>
Do you really want to reschedule?
- [20:19:19] <drewinthehead>
no, silly :)
- [20:19:39] <Phae>
okay. I wasn't sure if perhaps it was a thing you'd planned with Rachel, and she was going to murder you or something
- [20:19:43] <Phae>
:)
- [20:20:18] <drewinthehead>
nope, we're clear. saturday night mFs, sunday morning, cheese
- [20:20:35] <Phae>
:)
- [20:20:37] <drewinthehead>
http://upcoming.org/event/106458/
- [20:20:49] <Phae>
oh. someone actually put it into UC at last
- [20:23:58] <Phae>
"CheeseCamp" is Steve Marshall's idea on it.
- [20:30:01] <drewinthehead>
mmmm
- [20:30:15] <drewinthehead>
that'd have to be somewhere near Neals Yard Dairy
- [20:30:23] <Phae>
:)
- [20:31:57] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [20:39:23] <drewinthehead>
here's a bad idea ... netgear's website requires the flash player. i only ever go to netgear.com when i need support or drivers or something, and i'm in no mood to go installing flash players at that point. grr
- [20:39:45] <Phae>
That's bad usability
- [20:39:52] <Phae>
you should write them a stern letter
- [20:41:24] <drewinthehead>
they'll not listen ... they're using flash to make the prospect of buying network equipment more exciting
- [20:41:37] <drewinthehead>
(i'm not sure i can entirely blame them for that)
- [20:42:01] <Phae>
Yes, but target audience for networking gear is generally people who have a vague clue anyway.
- [20:43:38] <drewinthehead>
true
- [20:43:57] <drewinthehead>
and people who get excited by networking gear anyway
- [20:44:00] <drewinthehead>
mmm networks.
- [20:44:05] <Phae>
yeah
- [20:45:15] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:45:15] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:45:22] <Phae>
Evening Tantek.
- [20:45:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [20:50:37] <tantek>
evening Phae
- [20:50:38] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [20:50:51] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [20:52:30] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [21:01:12] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [21:14:11] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:25:34] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8467 * Adactio * (+0) Upcoming -
- [21:33:44] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [21:54:38] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
- [22:08:32] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [22:20:15] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.112.69.203.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:33:07] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.27.141.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:41:46] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:41:46] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [22:46:30] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.112.69.203.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [22:55:13] * Zeo (n=zeo@218.111.50.1) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
- [22:57:44] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
- [23:00:10] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [23:16:08] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=8468 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
- [23:17:20] <mfbot>
[[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=8469 * ChristopheDucamp * (+12)
- [23:58:11] * remi (n=remi@dsl-128-254.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
- [23:58:11] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
chat.freenode.net
using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.