IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:36:14] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
  2. [00:40:35] <amette> Mr_Elusive ? Unreal Tournament ? - _That_ Mr. Elusive, who made the Quake3-bot-AI, cause Carmack couldn't do it???
  3. [01:16:20] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
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  5. [01:26:05] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  6. [01:26:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  7. [01:26:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  8. [02:22:13] * bewest wonders how quickly he can hack together an hAtom creator
  9. [02:28:30] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  10. [02:29:25] <pnhChris> to create what?
  11. [02:29:53] * iwaim_ (n=iwaim@gateway.alib.jp) has joined #microformats
  12. [02:31:36] <bewest> an hEntry
  13. [02:32:09] <bewest> optionally enclosed with an hFeed
  14. [02:33:17] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  15. [02:33:38] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  16. [02:36:52] <bewest> tantek: there's a TODO note in the hreview creator that says "convert this to templates". what does that mean?
  17. [02:37:21] <tantek> that's a good question
  18. [02:37:35] <bewest> line 110 or so
  19. [02:37:45] <pnhChris> i guess it be useful for modeling a post and see what options there are, but I'm not sure how much of a need there'd be
  20. [02:37:51] <bewest> generating some html
  21. [02:37:57] <pnhChris> certainly no harm in it
  22. [02:38:08] <bewest> pnhChris: and it seems easy
  23. [02:38:24] <bewest> pnhChris: and I plan on doing "other things" after
  24. [02:38:38] <bewest> like porting a wysiwyg version to hyperscope
  25. [02:38:41] <bewest> or something
  26. [02:38:51] <tantek> did you check the to-do page on the wiki if it says anything about that
  27. [02:38:52] <tantek> ?
  28. [02:39:03] <bewest> no :-S
  29. [02:39:05] * bewest checks
  30. [02:39:27] * pnhChris stares at his own todo list and sees 'build website' staring himself in the face
  31. [02:42:26] <bewest> tantek: I don't see anything
  32. [02:43:41] * bewest wonders why mochikit was chosen
  33. [02:44:01] <bewest> I see a templates.js in /lib
  34. [02:46:55] * bewest decides to ignore it
  35. [02:49:01] <tantek> bewest i believe mochikit was chosen because it happened to be the one that Ryan found he had already downloaded to his machine and he was offline at the time.
  36. [02:49:13] <bewest> ah :-)
  37. [02:49:30] * bewest always finds those kinds of decisions interesting
  38. [02:51:08] * bewes1 (n=ben@c-24-7-41-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  39. [02:51:21] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  40. [02:51:38] <pnhChris> rel license usage question... page footer has a link to an internal page listing licensing info for the site (which may or may not link to CC) would rel="license" on the links to the block of copy on the site be appropriate? and what about from there to the CC page?
  41. [02:57:05] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [02:59:40] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-4-88-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  43. [03:05:01] <pnhChris> having trouble tonight tantek_ ?
  44. [03:05:19] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  45. [03:05:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  46. [03:08:28] * bewes1 struggles to resist the urge to add lots of whiz-bang features to the creators
  47. [03:09:35] <tantek> bewest - actually, simplifying them would be even better
  48. [03:15:53] * tantek_ (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  49. [03:17:04] <bewes1> simplify? the user experience of using them?
  50. [03:17:29] <bewes1> I agree instead of filling out all those time fields on hReview creator, you should be able to just click on a cool calendar
  51. [03:17:45] <bewes1> or a button that says "right now"
  52. [03:17:49] <bewes1> heh
  53. [03:17:57] <tantek> you mean on hCalendar creator
  54. [03:18:06] <tantek> and yes
  55. [03:18:07] <bewes1> I'm looking at hReview
  56. [03:18:15] <tantek> well for "calendar"
  57. [03:18:17] <bewes1> but I suppose the same could apply
  58. [03:18:32] <bewes1> actually, it should just default to "right now"
  59. [03:18:37] <bewes1> and you can click on the calendar to change it
  60. [03:18:54] <tantek> it does default to right now
  61. [03:18:58] <bewes1> oh
  62. [03:19:00] <tantek> for the dtcreated
  63. [03:19:02] <tantek> yeah
  64. [03:19:04] <bewes1> in that case good job
  65. [03:19:07] <tantek> er
  66. [03:19:09] <tantek> dtreviewed
  67. [03:19:19] <tantek> but it can still be simplified / semi-automated
  68. [03:19:27] <tantek> e.g. if you put in a well known product URL
  69. [03:19:31] <tantek> like amazon.com ahem
  70. [03:19:52] <tantek> then it should prepopulate name of item, url(s), photo(s)
  71. [03:20:04] <bewes1> you collecting these ideas somewhere?
  72. [03:20:32] <bewes1> nevermind, I'm creating a list
  73. [03:20:35] <bewes1> keep going
  74. [03:20:46] <tantek> ideally
  75. [03:20:51] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do
  76. [03:21:54] <bewes1> I'll replicate them there
  77. [03:22:08] <bewes1> what about the URL?
  78. [03:22:12] <bewes1> and why the ahem?
  79. [03:23:06] <tantek> the ahem?
  80. [03:23:23] <bewes1> (20:19:29) tantek: like amazon.com ahem <-- that :-)
  81. [03:24:23] <tantek> oh that one
  82. [03:24:25] <tantek> uh
  83. [03:25:56] <tantek> for some reason i associate your name with a9/amazon is that not correct?
  84. [03:26:45] * tantek notices you don't have an entry here: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
  85. [03:27:40] <bewes1> alexa :-)
  86. [03:27:45] <bewes1> <.<
  87. [03:27:49] * bewes1 remedies
  88. [03:29:46] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=8458 * BenWest * (+40) added BenWest|bewest
  89. [03:32:10] <pnhChris> any thoughts on my rel-license question?
  90. [03:32:18] <pnhChris> (maybe you missed that t)
  91. [03:32:31] <bewes1> pnhChris: I think he missed it
  92. [03:32:46] <pnhChris> pnhChris: rel license usage question... page footer has a link to an internal page listing licensing info for the site (which may or may not link to CC) would rel="license" on the links to the block of copy on the site be appropriate? and what about from there to the CC page?
  93. [03:46:23] <tantek> good question
  94. [03:46:27] <tantek> license transclusion
  95. [03:46:31] <tantek> not sure how to make that work
  96. [03:48:29] <tantek> i think rel-license requires direct links
  97. [03:49:28] <pnhChris> it really doesn't say
  98. [03:50:38] <pnhChris> not in any formal way at least
  99. [03:51:46] <pnhChris> beyond a few of your year+ old comments on the issues page
  100. [03:53:57] <pnhChris> i suppose i could avoid the issue by changing the footer copy depending on what page you may be on, but that seems much less friendly
  101. [03:54:28] <pnhChris> mostly to me as the author :P
  102. [04:16:05] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  103. [04:18:47] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  104. [04:30:51] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  105. [04:37:44] <Frederic> morning
  106. [04:38:24] <tantek> pnhChris - requires as in there is no other way that it is defined to work
  107. [04:38:42] <pnhChris> defined where and how
  108. [04:39:08] <tantek> in the spec
  109. [04:39:09] <pnhChris> cause what i saw in the wiki was quite loosely defined
  110. [04:39:21] <tantek> it says you put rel="license" on the hyperlink to the license page
  111. [04:39:38] <tantek> which doesn't provide any wiggle room for anything indirect
  112. [04:40:02] <pnhChris> particularly the 'what is a license' resource bit
  113. [04:40:28] <tantek> it's whatever page the author thinks defines the license for the current page
  114. [04:41:33] <pnhChris> again.. is it some text on another page that states "content X licenced under CC, all rights reserved for content type Y, unless otherwise stated, yadda yadda yadda"
  115. [04:42:21] <pnhChris> or is it somethign more formal and "machine readable" content on the other end
  116. [04:42:23] <tantek> so basically it is a custom license
  117. [04:42:37] <tantek> machine readable?
  118. [04:42:50] <tantek> people publish links on the web that go to other people readable pages first and foremost
  119. [04:42:56] <tantek> that's what rel-license complements
  120. [04:43:55] <pnhChris> i'd have to go back to re-read what your specific points were in the issues page... but you did bring up consumption of the license (link?)
  121. [04:44:31] <pnhChris> but ok, so if we go with the 'custom license' scenario
  122. [04:44:52] <pnhChris> the link to the specific cc license from there.. no rel-license?
  123. [04:45:13] <tantek> chris what i meant by custom license was
  124. [04:45:24] <tantek> either you link to an existing well known license (cc, mit, gpl etc.)
  125. [04:45:45] <tantek> OR you link to another page which defines the license you want, probably on the same server etc.
  126. [04:46:09] <tantek> the latter is what I meant by custom license
  127. [04:46:34] <tantek> even if that other page just has prose that references a standard license somewhere else
  128. [04:46:36] <pnhChris> issue is i'm not linking (necessarily) from each individual content type or project to the license, but instead describing what goes on globally for the site
  129. [04:47:45] <pnhChris> e.g. a "some rights reserved" link in the footer that links to a description of where CC, GPL, etc is applied
  130. [04:53:32] <pnhChris> ultimately i think its just easier to have multiple footers (really 2... a straight to CC for the blog stuff and a all reserved for the other projects) and just the global text for informative purposes and to cover things that don't have footers... like most of my little demo things... but it would seem easier to link everyplace to the one explanation instead of hoping people stumple upon it
  131. [04:54:36] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  132. [04:55:06] <pnhChris> buh bye :P
  133. [04:58:18] <pnhChris> (if you're reading the logs.. and because i'm going to bed... its not something i'm agonizing over, just a case of my authoring 'style' maybe not meshing with the typical usage and figured I'd explore it a bit)
  134. [05:06:22] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  135. [05:09:05] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  136. [06:00:14] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  137. [06:00:14] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  138. [06:07:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@static-71-243-124-75.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  139. [06:08:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  140. [06:45:15] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  141. [06:45:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  142. [06:45:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  143. [06:49:50] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable205.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  145. [07:10:39] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  146. [07:14:03] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=8459 * M * (+122) fixed alok's muddling of my entry
  147. [07:15:54] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  148. [07:21:52] <bewes1> ok, http://dichotomize.com/uf/hatom/creator.html supports the bare minimum...
  149. [07:21:57] <bewes1> got distracted with other things
  150. [07:32:22] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-7-32-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. [07:35:05] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8460 * BenWest * (+1483) bewest's todo
  152. [07:37:31] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8461 * BenWest * (-3) Ben West (bewest) -
  153. [07:38:16] <bewes1> gah how I hate wiki syntax
  154. [07:47:18] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  155. [07:49:46] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.7.188.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  156. [07:55:22] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=8462 * BenWest * (+96) /Use Amazon's ECS to pull in information about products when there is an ASIN in the item URI
  157. [08:18:07] * Harry (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) has joined #microformats
  158. [08:19:53] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
  159. [08:23:04] * Whiskey_MM (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
  160. [08:23:08] <Whiskey_MM> 'lo
  161. [08:25:25] * bunny_RSI is now known as bunnywabbit_
  162. [08:41:28] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  163. [08:41:28] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  164. [08:41:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  166. [08:44:24] <bewest> tantek: stupid hatom creator http://dichotomize.com/uf/hatom/creator.html
  167. [08:45:42] <bewest> tantek: re pulling product item photos
  168. [08:46:09] <bewest> tantek: amazon has a free service called ECS (I forget what that stands for) which allows you to pull product info and photos
  169. [08:47:02] <bewest> I might poke around into the availability of getting a JSON output format for that
  170. [08:49:50] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=8463 * ChristopheDucamp * (+925) Ajoutez les vôtres ici - ajout traduction déf Alok Jain à vérifier
  171. [08:51:03] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  172. [08:51:21] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=8464 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Alok Jain -
  173. [09:02:23] * Harry (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  181. [09:20:23] <Whiskey_M> 'lo (again)
  182. [09:36:28] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-57-31.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
  183. [09:40:09] <bewest> tantek: getting your name right in windows -> cygwin -> ssh -> vim -> webserver -> client is driving me crazy.
  184. [09:54:14] * bewest thought implementations shouldn't implement w3c working drafts and wonders how a draft is supposed to become a recommendation if there are supposed to be products shipping that implement the draft
  185. [10:02:41] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  186. [10:02:42] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  187. [10:20:37] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
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  191. [10:44:45] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  192. [10:44:45] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  193. [10:44:48] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  194. [10:44:48] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  195. [10:45:26] <Whiskey_M> morning trovster :) - meant to ask, how was Geek in the park?
  196. [10:45:42] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  197. [10:45:53] <trovster> I think it went quite well.. about 40ish people turned up, so OK
  198. [10:46:48] <Whiskey_M> cool, Patrick and Bruce seemed to enjoy their "pub stand-up" from comments :-)
  199. [10:47:24] <trovster> waffled on for hours!!
  200. [10:47:42] <Whiskey_M> I hope good waffle though ;-)
  201. [10:55:47] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.28.217.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  203. [11:29:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  204. [11:29:44] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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  209. [11:59:22] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-08-brighton-microformats-picnic&diff=0&oldid=8465 * Adactio * (+466) Photos -
  210. [12:06:30] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  211. [12:06:45] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  212. [12:36:04] <Whiskey_M> 'lo Phae
  213. [12:37:41] <Phae> hey
  214. [12:38:00] <Whiskey_M> how goes?
  215. [12:38:06] <Phae> not too bad, thank you.
  216. [12:38:13] <Whiskey_M> cool :)
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  223. [13:36:51] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  224. [13:47:05] <drewinthehead> greetings
  225. [13:47:16] <Whiskey_M> hey drew :)
  226. [13:47:23] <drewinthehead> hey Whiskey_M
  227. [13:47:27] <drewinthehead> how's it going?
  228. [13:48:28] <Whiskey_M> it's sunday, it's a nice day and as per normal I'm in work :-S (actually my own fault, I finished server maintenance hours ago - now putting together an s5 presentation on something we're working on)
  229. [13:48:39] <drewinthehead> :)
  230. [13:49:13] <drewinthehead> i'm hoping to make some improvements to the rel-lint bookmarklet thing i was hacking on last week
  231. [13:49:28] <Whiskey_M> cool :-)
  232. [13:49:40] <Phae> hi drew
  233. [13:49:47] <drewinthehead> hey Phae :)
  234. [13:49:56] <Phae> did you have a good weekend?
  235. [13:50:47] <drewinthehead> yeah - a great time :)
  236. [13:50:57] <drewinthehead> i'm working through the podcast stuff now
  237. [13:51:12] <Phae> great :)
  238. [13:52:50] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  239. [13:52:50] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  240. [13:53:03] <drewinthehead> and you?
  241. [13:54:01] <Phae> I had a great time. I stuck around yesterday and we had a BBQ down on the beach
  242. [13:54:24] <Phae> I need to work out what I want to write about the uF picnic for the MF blog next
  243. [13:54:51] <Phae> Need to find a photo from someones set that sums it up well
  244. [13:54:53] <ajturner> can anyone recommend a good S5 editor?
  245. [13:56:39] <drewinthehead> notepad? :D
  246. [13:56:47] <ajturner> heh
  247. [13:57:04] <ajturner> actually just trying OmniOutliner with S5 export seems "fairly" decent
  248. [13:57:09] <ajturner> image placement is a pain
  249. [14:00:40] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  250. [14:11:04] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.5/undefined]")
  251. [14:15:25] <Whiskey_M> I hate documentation :-S
  252. [14:16:27] <Whiskey_M> time for a cig --- http://sxframework.redantdev.com/pres/ if anyone wants to be bored
  253. [14:18:06] * Zeo (n=zeo@218.111.50.1) has joined #microformats
  254. [14:39:07] * ChrisK (n=helios@fof.durge.org) has joined #microformats
  255. [15:03:04] * tantek scrolls up
  256. [15:03:35] <tantek> bewest,re: w3c, working drafts, see candidate recommendation phase
  257. [15:06:31] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  258. [15:07:31] <tantek> ajturner, since when does OmniOutliner export S5? and which version of S5 does it export?
  259. [15:09:47] <ajturner> tantek - OO has a plugin that works - it exports v1.13b
  260. [15:10:11] <ajturner> see: http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnioutliner/extras/content.html
  261. [15:10:20] <ajturner> doesn't handle images - unfortunately
  262. [15:10:41] <ajturner> and I had to modify the XSL to use ui/ for directories, but other than that, seems fine
  263. [15:11:21] <ajturner> is there a way to get the # of WP blogs that are pinging technorati?
  264. [15:13:42] * darkfate_ (i=darkfate@dialup-4.245.197.39.Dial1.Stamford1.Level3.net) has joined #microformats
  265. [15:13:46] <darkfate_> omg
  266. [15:13:57] <Whiskey_M> ?
  267. [15:14:06] <darkfate_> nothing
  268. [15:14:10] <darkfate_> came from #wordpress
  269. [15:15:00] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  270. [15:17:26] <Whiskey_M> tantek - I don't know whether you're even interested, or wish to consider what's on the wiki - but any thoughts on: http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
  271. [15:26:11] <tantek> i don't understand the purpose of it
  272. [15:26:31] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
  273. [15:26:32] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  274. [15:26:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  275. [15:28:05] <tantek> the car/bicycle analogy is so flawed (like most analogies) it is not even worth refuting
  276. [15:30:03] <Whiskey_M> actually I saw the other argument equally as flawed, however I appreciate the analogy isn't a great one
  277. [15:31:05] <gsnedders> "Microformats is leveraging the approach that is both working better and frankly dominating in practice on the Web." - Even if it's dominating, it doesn't mean it's the best way.
  278. [15:31:28] <gsnedders> that's the first flaw I see in that page.
  279. [15:32:27] <Whiskey_M> it's all about being fit for purpose, microformats are a great enabling technology for the semantic web - they open up semantisism for so many more people which is fantastic. But that doesn't mean XML is awful, I wanted to put it on a talk page because that XML is awful seems to be a commonly held view
  280. [15:33:08] <gsnedders> XML is completely inappropriate for what microformats is doing
  281. [15:33:20] <gsnedders> that doesn't mean to say there aren't appropriate uses.
  282. [15:33:30] <Whiskey_M> agreed, therefore the point - "fit for purpose"
  283. [15:34:45] <Whiskey_M> the trouble is the main page is there which doesn't make that clear, somewhat confrontational
  284. [15:35:07] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  285. [15:35:14] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  286. [15:35:29] <gsnedders> Also, that article effectively says XHTML (served as XML) is bad.
  287. [15:36:48] <Whiskey_M> well at the present time given user agent support for application/xml+xhtml that could be an argument
  288. [15:37:13] <tantek> whiskey - it is not a matter of support
  289. [15:37:14] <gsnedders> it effectively says anything served as XML is bad.
  290. [15:37:28] <gsnedders> whether it be XHTML, Atom, or something else.
  291. [15:37:32] <tantek> it is a matter of problems with the definition of the model
  292. [15:38:04] <Whiskey_M> in what regard?
  293. [15:38:06] <tantek> even if there was widespread support of what is documented so far, it would still be far more flawed/fragile than HTML
  294. [15:38:16] <Whiskey_M> ok
  295. [15:38:25] <tantek> and another thing, WSDL/SOAP have nothing to do with the "Web"
  296. [15:38:33] <Whiskey_M> what?
  297. [15:38:40] <tantek> "Web services" are not web like at all
  298. [15:38:45] <tantek> complete misnomer
  299. [15:38:52] <tantek> pure marketing, nothing more
  300. [15:38:52] <Whiskey_M> they are not web pages, that doesn't mean they aren't web
  301. [15:38:54] <gsnedders> they're never used by the end user, for one
  302. [15:39:09] <gsnedders> remember the web isn't the same as the internet
  303. [15:39:13] <tantek> Web Services are not "web", they are merely HTTP services"
  304. [15:39:42] <tantek> there is NOTHING web-like about them
  305. [15:40:04] <Whiskey_M> except they share the same application protocol
  306. [15:40:45] <gsnedders> the web doesn't cover everything that uses HTTP
  307. [15:40:51] <tantek> no. they share the same *transport* protocol
  308. [15:40:55] <tantek> right gsnedders
  309. [15:41:23] <Whiskey_M> the split comes with one thing that's made very clear on the site, microformats are for humans first, XML is for computers first
  310. [15:42:05] <Whiskey_M> tan, transport protocol for http I believe (don't have to deal with this day to day), is tcp rather than udp
  311. [15:43:05] <tantek> they are both transport protocols
  312. [15:43:33] <Whiskey_M> back onto topic - what I was getting at is that just because XML is computer first doesn't mean that it's a bad thing, it just has to be considered within the bounds of what is appropriate.
  313. [15:44:11] <tantek> actually it does mean it is a bad thing, in so much as it is far more suboptimal for any kind of *human* content publishing, sharing etc.
  314. [15:44:23] <tantek> which is what the *Web* is about
  315. [15:45:25] <tantek> what many don't realize is that "humans first" applies to nearly *any* data format that contains human generated/edited information
  316. [15:45:34] <tantek> including preferences files for example
  317. [15:46:11] <Whiskey_M> and if the editor they use generates wellformed xml?
  318. [15:46:39] <tantek> then use XHTML
  319. [15:46:42] <Whiskey_M> even tails uses tidy to get xml benefits
  320. [15:47:05] <Whiskey_M> xhtml uses xml formatting and rules
  321. [15:47:05] <tantek> on the *consuming* side yes
  322. [15:47:23] <tantek> on the publishing side it is not a reasonable expectations
  323. [15:49:12] <Whiskey_M> no, you're right - it's not a reasonable expectation to expect everyone hand coding sites to always generate well formed code or to produce rdf and owl to have their content readable
  324. [15:49:42] <tantek> anyway, in short, whiskey, that talk page is pretty worthless (very poor arguments, examples, analogies etc.), unless you want to document common misconceptions / faqs to be answered, which may be of some utility, if these are actual arguments you have heard from XML-folks. in that case it would be more appropriate as a list of questions, and not just "isn't it true that... ?" style questions (which are not really question
  325. [15:51:17] <Whiskey_M> the trouble is the original page is just as worthless to anyone that does work with XML daily. It sounds like a list of arguments from people that have already made up their mind.
  326. [15:54:15] <Whiskey_M> and the trouble with that is it puts people off of what is a fantastic concept
  327. [15:54:31] <tantek> Whiskey_M, that may be, but frankly, it is not clear that the energy required to change the minds of people who work in XML daily is worth the time to document them. That page is for people that are undecided or already productive web authors/developers, to help have them avoid falling into the trap of trying to make XML work on the Web.
  328. [15:55:24] <gsnedders> then what happens to XML formats that are already popular like RSS and Atom?
  329. [15:55:40] <tantek> RSS in practice is not XML
  330. [15:55:46] <Whiskey_M> why?
  331. [15:56:08] <tantek> in practice it is tag soup
  332. [15:56:28] <gsnedders> I haven't seen that many illformed feeds
  333. [15:56:32] <Whiskey_M> tantek, are you rallying against XML or RDF/OWL
  334. [15:56:47] <tantek> they both have different sets of problems
  335. [15:57:06] <tantek> for the purposes of authoring/publishing/sharing human-related content, which nearly all content is
  336. [15:57:52] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-44.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  337. [15:57:53] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  338. [15:58:05] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-44.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  339. [15:58:52] <gsnedders> there are plenty of wacky implementations of RSS, but most are at least well-formed XML
  340. [15:59:08] <gsnedders> almost all are, in my experience.
  341. [15:59:13] <tantek> gsnedders, anyone who builds tools that deal with millions of feeds knows plenty both about invalid feeds and inconsistently valid feeds
  342. [15:59:38] <tantek> gsnedders, more are well-formed than valid, but there are *plenty* that are consistently not even well-formed
  343. [16:00:00] <tantek> this is all well-trodden ground, go read up on Mark Pilgrims's discussions about the FeedParser etc.
  344. [16:00:10] <gsnedders> what annoys me is the annoyingly invalid feeds
  345. [16:00:23] <gsnedders> things like having months in other languages for the dates.
  346. [16:00:57] <Whiskey_M> publishing tools need to improve for those
  347. [16:01:32] <gsnedders> I can't remember what it was, but some major French site had both the months and day names in French.
  348. [16:04:24] <gsnedders> even the latest ALA was in breach of the RSS 2.0 spec when it launched
  349. [16:05:08] <Whiskey_M> that is the trouble with people finding the RSS 2.0 standard hard to follow (not suprising really)
  350. [16:05:27] <gsnedders> easier to follow than the Atom drafts, IMO
  351. [16:06:04] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  352. [16:06:19] <Whiskey_M> where we syndicate we mainly do so in rss, not had a look at atom
  353. [16:06:26] <gsnedders> suffers from unclarity, though
  354. [16:06:32] <gsnedders> (the RSS spec)
  355. [16:06:42] <Whiskey_M> quelle change ;)
  356. [16:07:24] <gsnedders> I've got more experience implementing a parser than creating the actual feed.
  357. [16:08:26] <ajturner> I think thats probably common for people in this channel
  358. [16:08:28] <ajturner> :)
  359. [16:13:30] <Whiskey_M> ug, just checked out what some different people do on the channel, I would by apperances be the oldest fart here ;)
  360. [16:14:22] <Phae> Age isn't terribly relevant, so don't worry. :)
  361. [16:14:41] <Whiskey_M> tell that to my knees ;)
  362. [16:15:01] <gsnedders> Whiskey_M: I'd probably be the youngest… and quite possible the illest :(
  363. [16:15:16] <Whiskey_M> more summer cold going around then
  364. [16:15:31] <gsnedders> effect of school starting again, yeah :P
  365. [16:15:37] <gsnedders> I've also had CFS for over a year
  366. [16:15:39] <Whiskey_M> just in time ;)
  367. [16:16:20] <mfbot> [[Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=8466 * Tantek * (+805) needs rewriting and moving
  368. [16:16:22] <gsnedders> and being ill for over a year really does suck
  369. [16:17:44] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
  370. [16:18:59] <Frederic> re
  371. [16:21:07] <Whiskey_M> After reading that I'm off to the pub. Tantek, this is meant as a sigh rather than anything nasty since I really think what is going on is a good idea and that's not lip service I really do mean it; but at times you can be a complete one-eyed *"�$""!"�$!".
  372. [16:21:12] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ("pub")
  373. [16:22:01] <tantek> the arguments are worthless unless they help us move forward, that is the bottom line
  374. [16:22:33] <tantek> and thus i've noted what needs to happen to that page if you or others wish to move forward with that effort
  375. [16:53:55] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable205.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  376. [16:53:55] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  377. [17:02:55] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  378. [17:12:35] * drewinthehead stirs
  379. [17:12:45] <drewinthehead> i nice quiet sunday afternoon, i see ;)
  380. [17:20:43] <Phae> :)
  381. [17:30:27] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  382. [17:32:32] * Hagfish (i=trilluse@cpc2-bsfd2-0-0-cust413.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  383. [17:35:03] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #microformats
  384. [17:38:21] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  385. [17:45:45] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  387. [17:54:10] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@63.118.138.81) has joined #microformats
  388. [17:54:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  389. [18:03:59] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  390. [18:04:39] <gsnedders> drewinthehead: yeah, very quiet :)
  391. [18:05:13] * gsnedders goes to cook supper
  392. [18:06:23] <drewinthehead> mmm supper
  393. [18:06:33] * drewinthehead just had a nice pot roasted chicken
  394. [18:06:38] <gsnedders> supper cooked by 14 year olds…
  395. [18:06:39] <gsnedders> mmm…
  396. [18:07:21] <drewinthehead> not cooked by me...
  397. [18:07:24] * gsnedders wonders if anyone younger than him is in this channel
  398. [18:07:39] <drewinthehead> if it was down to me it'd be sweet and sour chicken balls and chips or something ;)
  399. [18:08:11] <drewinthehead> i think you're probably the youngest so far, gsnedders, and thus the most awesomest.
  400. [18:09:18] <gsnedders> "1G Sep 10 16:19 /usr/local/apache2/logs/error_log" - maybe that's a bit big…
  401. [18:10:53] * drewinthehead is reminded to go check his logs
  402. [18:11:16] <gsnedders> that's the problem on my dev box, I have the error reporting of PHP set up rather high, so I get a lot in the logs.
  403. [18:11:50] * darkfate_ (i=darkfate@dialup-4.245.197.39.Dial1.Stamford1.Level3.net) Quit ("Where is my spoon?")
  404. [18:12:04] <drewinthehead> 40Mb .
  405. [18:12:13] <drewinthehead> nothing to worry about yet
  406. [18:13:03] * gsnedders goes to deal with the supper, finally
  407. [18:22:56] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@63.118.138.81) has joined #microformats
  408. [18:23:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  409. [18:24:14] * trovster_ (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  410. [18:25:58] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
  411. [18:35:16] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  412. [18:35:16] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  413. [18:42:37] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  414. [18:50:06] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  415. [18:50:22] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  416. [18:50:30] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  417. [18:50:43] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  418. [19:05:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  419. [19:19:22] <gsnedders> mm…
  420. [19:19:26] <gsnedders> overcooked potatos…
  421. [19:20:05] <gsnedders> the rest was fine, though
  422. [19:21:01] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  423. [19:26:37] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  424. [19:27:45] * trovster_ is now known as trovster
  425. [19:35:41] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  426. [19:52:27] <drewinthehead> i was hoping to do all sorts of mF things this evening, but instead i'm being sysadmin for my dad. hrmph.
  427. [20:05:54] <gsnedders> drewinthehead: I was hoping to have Fbug 1.0 RC1 out on June 1st. It remains pre-alpha :)
  428. [20:05:56] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  429. [20:06:28] <drewinthehead> let's not go down that route, gsnedders - far too drepressing
  430. [20:06:52] * gsnedders thinks of his past year…
  431. [20:08:21] <drewinthehead> it's when the domain registrations comes round that it really hurts ...
  432. [20:10:03] * gsnedders has had CFS for the past year
  433. [20:14:33] <drewinthehead> Phae: i just noticed that our microformats vevent clashes with the Great British Cheese Festival
  434. [20:14:46] <drewinthehead> do you think we'll need to reschedule?
  435. [20:14:49] <Phae> !
  436. [20:14:51] <Phae> oh no!
  437. [20:15:03] <Phae> I was just saying to Simon and Nat that that sounded like fun.
  438. [20:15:12] <drewinthehead> yup :)
  439. [20:15:17] <Phae> :O
  440. [20:15:29] <drewinthehead> it runs both days though - so we might go up on the sunday
  441. [20:15:47] <Phae> That'd be good.
  442. [20:16:06] <Phae> I mean, the actual event doesn't really clash, since the cheese goers and uFers aren't really the same people, bar you and I.
  443. [20:16:25] <drewinthehead> true
  444. [20:16:29] <drewinthehead> mmm cheese
  445. [20:16:31] <Phae> And I wasn't really planning to do 2 days of cheese.
  446. [20:16:53] <drewinthehead> no, that would be irresponsible
  447. [20:16:56] <Phae> heh
  448. [20:17:07] <Phae> Do you really want to reschedule?
  449. [20:19:19] <drewinthehead> no, silly :)
  450. [20:19:39] <Phae> okay. I wasn't sure if perhaps it was a thing you'd planned with Rachel, and she was going to murder you or something
  451. [20:19:43] <Phae> :)
  452. [20:20:18] <drewinthehead> nope, we're clear. saturday night mFs, sunday morning, cheese
  453. [20:20:35] <Phae> :)
  454. [20:20:37] <drewinthehead> http://upcoming.org/event/106458/
  455. [20:20:49] <Phae> oh. someone actually put it into UC at last
  456. [20:23:58] <Phae> "CheeseCamp" is Steve Marshall's idea on it.
  457. [20:30:01] <drewinthehead> mmmm
  458. [20:30:15] <drewinthehead> that'd have to be somewhere near Neals Yard Dairy
  459. [20:30:23] <Phae> :)
  460. [20:31:57] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  461. [20:39:23] <drewinthehead> here's a bad idea ... netgear's website requires the flash player. i only ever go to netgear.com when i need support or drivers or something, and i'm in no mood to go installing flash players at that point. grr
  462. [20:39:45] <Phae> That's bad usability
  463. [20:39:52] <Phae> you should write them a stern letter
  464. [20:41:24] <drewinthehead> they'll not listen ... they're using flash to make the prospect of buying network equipment more exciting
  465. [20:41:37] <drewinthehead> (i'm not sure i can entirely blame them for that)
  466. [20:42:01] <Phae> Yes, but target audience for networking gear is generally people who have a vague clue anyway.
  467. [20:43:38] <drewinthehead> true
  468. [20:43:57] <drewinthehead> and people who get excited by networking gear anyway
  469. [20:44:00] <drewinthehead> mmm networks.
  470. [20:44:05] <Phae> yeah
  471. [20:45:15] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  472. [20:45:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  473. [20:45:22] <Phae> Evening Tantek.
  474. [20:45:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  475. [20:50:37] <tantek> evening Phae
  476. [20:50:38] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  477. [20:50:51] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  478. [20:52:30] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  479. [21:01:12] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  480. [21:14:11] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  481. [21:25:34] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8467 * Adactio * (+0) Upcoming -
  482. [21:33:44] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  483. [21:54:38] * BenWard (n=BenWard@user-514def8f.l4.c1.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
  484. [22:08:32] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
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  486. [22:33:07] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.27.141.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  487. [22:41:46] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  488. [22:41:46] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  489. [22:46:30] * keithale1ander (n=keithale@87.112.69.203.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  490. [22:55:13] * Zeo (n=zeo@218.111.50.1) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  491. [22:57:44] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
  492. [23:00:10] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  493. [23:16:08] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=8468 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
  494. [23:17:20] <mfbot> [[events-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events-fr&diff=0&oldid=8469 * ChristopheDucamp * (+12)
  495. [23:58:11] * remi (n=remi@dsl-128-254.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
  496. [23:58:11] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

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