IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  6. [01:23:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  12. [03:20:34] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9463 * Tantek * (+83) added link to Microformats Practices podcast
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  14. [03:25:30] <mfbot> [[podcasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=9464 * Tantek * (+233) added future of web apps microformats practices podcast.
  15. [03:26:30] <mfbot> [[podcasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=9465 * Tantek * (+17)
  16. [03:26:47] <mfbot> [[podcasts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=podcasts&diff=0&oldid=9466 * Tantek * (+0)
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  18. [03:32:18] <mfbot> [[events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-09-13-future-of-web-apps-microformats&diff=0&oldid=9467 * Tantek * (+55) added link to fowa wiki
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  30. [05:34:39] <Frederic> morning
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  37. [06:42:18] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  40. [08:00:49] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  42. [08:16:19] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  45. [08:34:35] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  51. [09:23:12] <ptica> hi, can someone pleas explain me why hCard creator uses a <div> as a toplevel element and not an <address> element?
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  53. [09:31:10] <trovster> Because you're supposed to only use <address> for contact details for the author of the page. However, hCards can represent other people.. (?)
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  55. [09:34:46] <blueNine> hCards don't strictly have to show an address, either?
  56. [09:35:05] <blueNine> I don't see a name and phone number as an adress, but it's a plausible use for a h/vCard
  57. [09:35:30] <trovster> <address> for contact details ... which can be a phone number... but I don't like that argument
  58. [09:36:27] <blueNine> Hmm.. interesting.
  59. [09:36:46] <blueNine> I'd always assumed the <address> field was for addresses, rather than for any contact information.
  60. [09:36:49] <blueNine> heh.
  61. [09:36:56] <trovster> Indeed.
  62. [09:37:07] <trovster> but it's ONLY for contact details for that PAGE/Site
  63. [09:37:12] <blueNine> Ah!
  64. [09:37:18] <blueNine> Yes.
  65. [09:37:18] <trovster> Which, imo, sucks
  66. [09:37:35] <blueNine> It does, actually.
  67. [09:38:47] <blueNine> Does hCard require you to use a div>
  68. [09:38:54] <trovster> No...
  69. [09:39:11] <trovster> All microformats are just classes (apart from datetime-pattern)
  70. [09:39:17] <blueNine> Then the question is moot, I guess :)
  71. [09:39:39] <trovster> Indeed.
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  73. [09:41:43] <trovster> <p class="vcard">My name is <a href="http://www.trovster.com" class="fn url">trevor morris</a> and I work for a design agency as a <span class="role">web developer</span> called <a href="#" class="org url">Creation</a>.</p>
  74. [09:43:25] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9468 * AndyMabbett * (+147) Breaking news - tunning new orchids from Asia's rainforest
  75. [09:45:01] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=9469 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Breaking news - Stunning new orchids from Asia's rainforest
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  80. [10:15:36] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  89. [11:54:38] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  92. [12:10:21] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  94. [12:13:05] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  96. [12:20:32] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  100. [12:54:27] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  105. [13:17:39] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  107. [13:50:38] <briansuda> anyone around have any experience with jQuery? i am using javascript to extract Microformatted data into LiveClipBoard and hit a small snag
  108. [13:52:35] <trovster> #jquery ;) but I can try (only just started)
  109. [13:53:32] <briansuda> no worries, they support SOME XSLT, and SOME CSS rules
  110. [13:53:49] <briansuda> somehow i need some of each and the functions needed aren't supported
  111. [14:12:15] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9470 * AndyMabbett * (-41) rm repeated text; too confusing for newbies
  112. [14:15:01] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9471 * AndyMabbett * (+272) Introduction - start to list fields
  113. [14:15:52] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9472 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Introduction - make list
  114. [14:18:09] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9473 * AndyMabbett * (+42) Introduction - location
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  117. [14:27:09] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  120. [14:59:16] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9474 * AndyMabbett * (-45) move cedits etc to end; make semantic boilerplate a link, tweak
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  122. [15:10:12] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9475 * AndyMabbett * (-3) Move credits, etc,. to end
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  125. [15:17:38] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
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  128. [15:20:57] <briansuda> hmm... not sure what i think about moving Credits/Copyright/etc to the bottom of the specs pages? anyone else have any thoughts?
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  130. [15:23:23] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9476 * AndyMabbett * (+7) reorder & rename
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  150. [16:16:12] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  151. [16:17:21] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9477 * Tantek * (+994) added update specification section organization to-do item
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  159. [16:25:22] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  164. [16:33:33] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
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  167. [16:38:28] <bewest> http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/anno06-3rd.html#060809
  168. [16:39:48] <tantek> briansuda, I too am not sure what i think about moving Credits/Copyright/etc to the bottom of the specs pages, except that doing such massive drastic edits to established pages without at least bringing it up with the *editor* or the mailing list is perhaps a bit rude.
  169. [16:41:20] <briansuda> plus, there are some important things, like the copyright statement to the bottom middle. - if someone contributes they should be aware of what their contribution means
  170. [16:41:24] <tantek> Ryan King and I had been in the process of trying to improve the intro/header section of specs, and we decided to use hResume as a first place to start (since it was new and could afford that).
  171. [16:41:31] <tantek> briansuda, correct
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  173. [16:41:47] <briansuda> plus, (and you might have more experience) but most specs i have seen layout the Editor Author up-front
  174. [16:41:55] <tantek> so I've documented my current thoughts on this here: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#update_specification_section_organization
  175. [16:42:14] <tantek> that's right brian. much of the order of information in the specs have been modeled after W3C specs
  176. [16:42:29] <tantek> re-use rather than re-invent that is. even specification structure.
  177. [16:42:43] * _psychic_ is now known as _psy[datacenter]
  178. [16:43:01] <tantek> bewest - that sabi.co.uk comment is raising no new arguments.
  179. [16:43:02] <briansuda> i also understand the yearning to "get right into" the data, so some refactoring is welcomed, but i'm not sure a whole move
  180. [16:43:12] <tantek> but does contain some new misconceptions
  181. [16:43:26] <bewest> tantek: his alternative suggestion: http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/anno06-3rd.html#060810b
  182. [16:43:28] <tantek> e.g. this statement "Using the class attribute to indicate finer classes of semantics is a bit of an abuse, as they are meant to indicate finer classes of rendering"
  183. [16:43:54] <tantek> nowhere in HTML specs does it say class attribute is for finer classes or rendering.
  184. [16:43:59] <bewest> right
  185. [16:44:31] <bewest> the argument that usually goes hand in hand with that one is that class attribute is CDATA, not PCDATA and as such should not contain semantic information
  186. [16:44:46] <tantek> huh?
  187. [16:44:57] <tantek> what does the format of the attribute have to do with the semantics?
  188. [16:45:01] <tantek> that makes no sense.
  189. [16:45:06] * bewest shrugs
  190. [16:45:11] <bewest> I hear it a lot
  191. [16:45:47] <tantek> briansuda, refactoring can be a good thing to do, but not singlehandedly by someone who hasn't done so before without any discussion on the list or in IRC
  192. [16:45:56] <tantek> that's the part that was inappropriate
  193. [16:47:17] <briansuda> glad to know it wasn't just me then...
  194. [16:48:03] <tantek> yeah, I have to compose an email to the list and revert some edits so we can discuss improvements first before making them
  195. [16:48:54] <tantek> bewest, I think XML is having some serious problems in the market of the "public Web"
  196. [16:49:25] <tantek> after seeing a presentation on JSON by Doug Crawford, I'm convinced JSON is much better for data exchange (from APIs) than XML
  197. [16:49:35] <bewest> Crockford?
  198. [16:49:52] <tantek> maybe - sorry, I may be misremembering - the guy who came up with JSON
  199. [16:49:59] <bewest> JSON /is/ much better if the consumer is javascript
  200. [16:50:13] <tantek> not necessary
  201. [16:50:24] <tantek> YAML consumers and consume JSON as well
  202. [16:50:28] <bewest> erm, JSON feels better than DOM to me
  203. [16:50:33] <bewest> so maybe JSON > DOM
  204. [16:50:36] <tantek> there are libraries for consuming/producing JSON in over a dozen languages
  205. [16:50:39] <bewest> right
  206. [16:50:46] <bewest> I retract
  207. [16:50:54] <tantek> and it is *much* more readable than XML IMHO
  208. [16:50:55] <bewest> yeah, Doug Crockford
  209. [16:50:56] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  210. [16:51:10] <bewest> his site is good for JS inspiration
  211. [16:51:16] <tantek> and experience with semantic HTML + microformats has shown that it's much better of publishing human readable documents than XML with new vocabularies etc.
  212. [16:51:45] <tantek> so XML, which supposed to be the end-all be-all for both data-exchange and document-exchange is now under fire from both sides by better solutions
  213. [16:51:49] <tantek> JSON and microformats
  214. [16:52:06] <tantek> I'm starting to wonder if XML actually has a practical future on the public Web
  215. [16:52:17] <bewest> hmmm
  216. [16:52:20] <tantek> yeah
  217. [16:52:25] <bewest> then here's a challenge for you:
  218. [16:52:27] <tantek> it was one of those, oh crap, moments
  219. [16:52:32] <tantek> when I had that realization
  220. [16:52:37] <tantek> remember, I'm not anti-XML
  221. [16:52:40] <bewest> convert technorati's web API to do xhtml :-)
  222. [16:52:48] <tantek> or rather, JSON
  223. [16:52:54] <bewest> erm, that too
  224. [16:53:07] <bewest> there was a thread started on the list about how to do data with xhtml
  225. [16:53:07] <tantek> Technorati's website already publishes microformats, and we're adding more (nearly) every day
  226. [16:53:27] <tantek> I think hAtom has a lot of potential for that
  227. [16:53:30] <bewest> it didn't really get picked up although I was very interested in it
  228. [16:53:31] <bewest> perhaps
  229. [16:54:22] <bewest> you know, I think my observation is such that the main obstacle people are having is understanding that it is the visible nature of data that maintains its integrity and viability
  230. [16:54:40] <bewest> and that data without high integrity isn't worth a whole lot
  231. [16:54:49] <tantek> precisely!
  232. [16:54:55] <bewest> this is stemming from your observations about links being public meta data
  233. [16:55:02] <tantek> they think a pure model is more important than high integrity
  234. [16:55:10] <tantek> which is absolutely false
  235. [16:55:14] <tantek> and the *opposite* is true
  236. [16:55:16] <bewest> the reason the "web is working" is because of the bits of data that are viewable
  237. [16:55:38] <tantek> that's probably the biggest cultural/philosophical difference between the microformats and the XML/RDF world
  238. [16:55:52] <bewest> it /is/ a little unintuitive... because it's a usability/social/human problem, not an engineering problem per se
  239. [16:58:08] <tantek> *right*
  240. [16:58:22] <tantek> unintuitive for people who ignore usability/social/human problems
  241. [16:58:45] <bewest> meeting time :-)
  242. [16:58:48] <bewest> afk
  243. [17:05:31] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit ("time to eat")
  244. [17:14:55] * iwaim_g (n=iwaim_g@gnulinux.good-day.net) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  245. [17:15:10] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) has joined #microformats
  246. [17:15:10] <jibot> Frederic is Frederic de Villamil from France and the guy formerly known as neuro` and blogs at http://t37.net
  247. [17:15:28] <Frederic> re
  248. [17:26:56] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
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  250. [17:42:25] * iwaim_g (n=iwaim_g@gnulinux.good-day.net) has joined #microformats
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  254. [17:49:53] <jibot> rohit is in NYC these days
  255. [17:50:50] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9478 * Tantek * (-15) reverted page to pre-reorg state but with new example in the wild that was added
  256. [17:50:57] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  257. [17:50:57] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  258. [17:51:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  259. [17:57:12] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  260. [17:58:56] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  261. [17:59:06] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9479 * Tantek * (-283) revereted to pre-org version
  262. [18:03:14] <csarven> does hcard use relations like `distance` ?
  263. [18:03:31] <tantek> how is distance a relation?
  264. [18:04:01] <csarven> err i meant a relative concept
  265. [18:04:07] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=9480 * Tantek * (+168) added link to hcalendar-authoring to top of page to match hCard to help direct authors find it more quickly
  266. [18:04:34] <tantek> csarven - still not understanding what that has to do with hCard, which represents a person or organization.
  267. [18:06:31] <csarven> for a store locator search (based on a postal code), distance is given as one of the results, however the company's (organization) location is relative to the postalcode
  268. [18:07:14] <tantek> ah that's a specific application
  269. [18:07:15] <csarven> im wondering if hcard would cover dynamic/relative assignments or is it only for static information?
  270. [18:07:15] <tantek> ok
  271. [18:07:30] <tantek> that seems like a different question
  272. [18:07:39] <csarven> :)
  273. [18:07:46] <tantek> the "distance" is not an aspect of the organization
  274. [18:07:49] <tantek> or the person
  275. [18:08:00] <tantek> so it doesn't belong in hCard
  276. [18:08:20] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  277. [18:08:23] <tantek> hCards however do tend to be *dynamic* in that people update them when their contact info changes etc.
  278. [18:08:23] <csarven> alright, thank you.
  279. [18:09:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  280. [18:10:16] <csarven> i understand.. what i meant by static is that the information is not calculated in one way or another -- not sure if this makes it any more clearer
  281. [18:14:49] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9481 * Tantek * (+820) added mailing list proposal
  282. [18:17:25] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9482 * Tantek * (-4) rename header
  283. [18:18:13] <tantek> csarven - if the information is "calculated" as you say, I'm not sure it belongs in a "format", other than as the formula that performed the calculation
  284. [18:18:18] <tantek> otherwise you lose information
  285. [18:19:10] <sreynen> is it okay to add redirects to the wiki from non-existent pages to likely intended destinations?
  286. [18:20:09] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  287. [18:20:43] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  288. [18:21:25] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  289. [18:21:32] <tantek> Scott - that seems to make sense
  290. [18:21:36] <tantek> any particular example?
  291. [18:21:46] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  292. [18:21:56] <sreynen> well, somewhere there's a list of all class names in use, which i can never find
  293. [18:22:04] <sreynen> and the search is useless because "class" is on every page
  294. [18:22:16] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9483 * Tantek * (+69)
  295. [18:22:19] <sreynen> so i'd like some of my failed guesses to redirect me
  296. [18:22:19] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  297. [18:22:29] <tantek> is it not on class-names ?
  298. [18:22:45] <sreynen> that's blank
  299. [18:22:50] <tantek> proves your point ;)
  300. [18:22:51] <sreynen> http://microformats.org/wiki/class-names
  301. [18:22:57] <sreynen> that was one of my guesses
  302. [18:23:39] <sreynen> so now i just need to figure out where it actually is, and redirect that
  303. [18:24:12] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9484 * Tantek * (+19) noted Chris Messina suggested microformats-suggest
  304. [18:24:37] <tantek> home page search usually works for that Scott
  305. [18:24:37] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes
  306. [18:25:17] * blueNine (n=chris@88-107-14-52.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  307. [18:25:26] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  308. [18:25:26] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  309. [18:25:37] <sreynen> you mean a Google site: search?
  310. [18:25:49] <tantek> no just "find" in the browser
  311. [18:25:54] <Phae> evening
  312. [18:25:58] <tantek> hi Phae
  313. [18:26:24] <sreynen> is that how you found that?
  314. [18:26:29] <sreynen> i'm not seeing it on the home page
  315. [18:26:37] <tantek> i just looked for "class" on the home page
  316. [18:26:44] <tantek> wiki home page
  317. [18:26:57] <sreynen> oh - i see now
  318. [18:27:03] <blueNine> You guys seen this --> http://www.baekdal.com/future/web2rss-intro/
  319. [18:27:05] <blueNine> ?
  320. [18:27:06] <tantek> but yeah, not entirely easy to discover
  321. [18:27:42] <sreynen> well, that solves my personal problem, but i suspect redirects would help some others
  322. [18:27:56] <tantek> oh i agree
  323. [18:27:58] <tantek> go for it
  324. [18:28:16] <tantek> blueNine - scrapers that generate RSS have been around for *many* years
  325. [18:28:28] <sreynen> i don't suppose it would be easy to get logs of most commonly accesses blank pages on the wiki?
  326. [18:28:44] <tantek> since before people started publishing RSS feeds, people wanted ways to synthesize them automatically for sites that didn't have them
  327. [18:28:48] <sreynen> s/accesses/accessed/
  328. [18:28:52] <tantek> sreynen - that's a good question
  329. [18:29:26] <blueNine> tantek: Seems a little ineligant.
  330. [18:29:29] <tantek> kingryan - how hard it is to get such 404-like (maybe they are actual 404s) logs from the wiki
  331. [18:29:38] <tantek> blueNine - yes, but not new
  332. [18:30:00] <tantek> Phae, note: http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#new_list_proposal
  333. [18:30:12] <tantek> since you and Drew helped kick off the whole "new mailing list" discussion ;)
  334. [18:31:18] <Phae> ah, okay
  335. [18:32:07] * Phae ponders.
  336. [18:32:11] <Phae> I'll decide over dinner.
  337. [18:32:17] <tantek> the real answer is that microformats-discuss *should be* the entry level microformats list in general
  338. [18:32:17] <kingryan> tantek, sreynen: try this: http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Wantedpages
  339. [18:32:27] <Phae> Yeah, that's probably accurate.
  340. [18:32:47] <tantek> and when someone "advances" from that they can jump on one of the more advanced lists
  341. [18:32:56] <kingryan> re the mailing list proposals...
  342. [18:33:01] <tantek> maybe a diagram would help ;)
  343. [18:33:05] <kingryan> why don't we try fixing uf-dev first and see if that helps?
  344. [18:33:11] <Phae> No, it's not that complicated :P
  345. [18:33:16] <tantek> uf-dev is the wrong place for *new* microformats
  346. [18:33:18] <tantek> two problems
  347. [18:33:20] <kingryan> I know
  348. [18:33:24] <kingryan> I know
  349. [18:33:28] <tantek> uf-dev should be focused on code
  350. [18:33:28] <kingryan> but why don't we fix it?
  351. [18:33:32] <Phae> uf-dev is just mostly unused isn't it? I glance at the archives sometimes and they seem short
  352. [18:33:38] <tantek> see uf-dev thread on that kingryan
  353. [18:33:48] <kingryan> it's unused because we don't let people join
  354. [18:33:52] <Phae> heh
  355. [18:33:53] <kingryan> I've read that tantek
  356. [18:34:02] <tantek> then reply to it
  357. [18:34:04] <kingryan> I'm just sayin', let's just change one variable at a time
  358. [18:34:08] <tantek> if no-one objects within a day or so
  359. [18:34:12] <tantek> then we can make that change first
  360. [18:34:27] <tantek> we'll give the "new list name" discussion a bit more time
  361. [18:34:43] <tantek> since there appears to be a calm in the species/currency/mars storm
  362. [18:34:46] <tantek> ;)
  363. [18:34:47] <kingryan> that's exactly what I'm proposing
  364. [18:34:52] <tantek> excellent
  365. [18:35:13] <kingryan> the "Martian currency birdstorm of 2006"
  366. [18:35:16] <Phae> heh
  367. [18:36:13] <kingryan> we'll be telling our grandkids about this someday
  368. [18:36:13] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9485 * ScottReynen * (+72) new list proposal -
  369. [18:36:31] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Connection timed out)
  370. [18:36:39] <bewest> grep $error `ls -t /path/to/logs/*access* | head -$numhead` | cut -d "\"" -f 2,3,4 | sort | uniq # where $error = 404 and $numhead = 10 will give you 404'd urls from the 10 freshest logs
  371. [18:37:34] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9486 * RyanKing * (+65) adding my vote for the null action (there's alway a null hypothesis, right?)
  372. [18:37:43] <bewest> won't give you the most common 404's though
  373. [18:37:45] <sreynen> ryanking, that's not exactly what i'm looking for
  374. [18:37:48] <kingryan> yeah, bewest, that'd be nice if mediawiki served empty pages as 404s
  375. [18:38:47] <kingryan> I just hit http://microformats.org/wiki/asdfasdfasd and got this:
  376. [18:38:48] <kingryan> 66.92.180.250 - - [16/Oct/2006:11:38:19 -0700] "GET /wiki/asdfasdfasd HTTP/1.1" 200 6012 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060613 Camino/1.0.2"
  377. [18:39:16] <bewest> ah
  378. [18:39:17] <sreynen> so there's really no way to get such a list then, eh?
  379. [18:39:26] <bewest> so look for all files with about 6000 bytes
  380. [18:39:34] <bewest> :-)
  381. [18:39:37] <kingryan> I cold make guesses based on page size, I guess?
  382. [18:39:42] <bewest> yup
  383. [18:39:50] <bewest> they would be remarkably similar, I'm guessing
  384. [18:39:56] <blueNine> .
  385. [18:39:57] * kingryan is watching the access logs in realtime
  386. [18:43:51] <mfbot> [[class-names]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/class-names * ScottReynen * (+30) redirect to existing-classes
  387. [18:44:05] <tantek> thanks scott
  388. [18:44:55] <sreynen> hmm, that's more of a rewrite than a redirect
  389. [18:44:57] <tantek> kingryan, I *do not* want to see uf-dev get overwhelmed with discussion of the creation of new microformats the way that uf-discuss has been
  390. [18:45:07] <kingryan> I don't think it will
  391. [18:45:08] <tantek> that only moves the problem, rather than fixes it
  392. [18:45:11] <tantek> ok
  393. [18:45:22] <tantek> I just want to be clear that the scope of uf-dev is not changing
  394. [18:45:31] <kingryan> but spreading some discussion and interest around (load balancing, if you will) could help
  395. [18:45:36] <tantek> topics of discussion / purpose etc.
  396. [18:45:40] <tantek> yes
  397. [18:45:40] <kingryan> it's only changing in scope of who gets in
  398. [18:45:43] <tantek> yes
  399. [18:46:15] <Phae> I think one of the other complaints about uf-dev is that only those with public, working implementations can take part... and I realise that's to keep out time-wasters, but if you allowed more people in, it'd move some threads to that list instead
  400. [18:46:17] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9487 * Cgriego * (+14) Added vote for microformats-research
  401. [18:47:08] <tantek> Phae, yes, that's the point of opening up uf-dev subscriptions
  402. [18:47:09] <sreynen> Phae, I thought that, but then I realized exactly how low that hurdle is
  403. [18:47:21] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  404. [18:47:38] <tantek> sreynen, right, but even maybe that low hurdle may be too much of a hurdle
  405. [18:47:59] <Phae> hmm
  406. [18:48:07] <kingryan> and it puts the burden on the list moderators
  407. [18:48:14] <kingryan> which we've been unable to deal with
  408. [18:48:16] <Phae> have more list moderators?
  409. [18:48:27] <tantek> i'm not sure we need the moderation
  410. [18:48:37] <sreynen> i think self-moderation might work
  411. [18:48:38] <tantek> i'm willing to risk the openness and see what happens
  412. [18:48:41] <kingryan> I'm talking about moderating the subscriptions
  413. [18:48:42] <tantek> right
  414. [18:48:44] <sreynen> i.e. what's proposed
  415. [18:48:47] <Phae> yeah, sreynen.
  416. [18:48:50] <tantek> right to scott that is
  417. [18:49:06] <kingryan> we *did* have a problem back when mf.org first started - very few people had written any code
  418. [18:49:28] <bewest> certainly seems more reasonable than creating more lists
  419. [18:49:36] <Phae> I think self-moderation would work. I mean, it's not like uf-discuss is unbearably active. I'm sure dev would look after itself just fine as a specialised, open, list
  420. [18:49:39] <kingryan> but I don't think we have that problem anymore- the number of people with experience will outweigh those who don't know what they're talking about
  421. [18:49:43] <jibot> Elzriel is not sleeping. He is waiting.
  422. [18:50:08] <tantek> kingryan, right, I think those are the points I tried to make on the list
  423. [18:50:23] <Phae> As Tantek said - try it for a while. If it's not working out well as a self-moderated list in a month or two, change it back.
  424. [18:50:29] <tantek> Phae, actually, I think uf-discuss did get unbearably active with new microformats discussions for a while
  425. [18:50:29] <Phae> No real harm in trying.
  426. [18:50:42] <tantek> hence the need to shunt those discussions off to another list
  427. [18:50:49] <tantek> because right now they are scaring away newbies
  428. [18:50:50] <Phae> I guess it didn't bother me? I suppose people have different tolerences.
  429. [18:50:56] <tantek> right
  430. [18:50:57] <Phae> Fair enough.
  431. [18:51:04] <bewest> tantek: I agree. seems like every day someone has a new proposal for something or other
  432. [18:51:06] <Phae> I can see how that'd be the case.
  433. [18:51:14] <tantek> for a lot of folks, microformats are something they can only put a little bit of time towards, and we should respect that
  434. [18:51:31] <Phae> bewest: I think a part of that is because, as we were saying in the thread, the introductory information on the site and wiki isn't good/clear enough.
  435. [18:51:31] <sreynen> i think it's good to keep the existing implementation hurdle in words though, just to have something to point to if/when problems do arise, so it doesn't come off as an arbitrary rule
  436. [18:51:36] <tantek> they just want to use them, maybe get a little advice about when and how etc.
  437. [18:51:41] <Phae> So people jump straight in at the discuss list
  438. [18:51:50] <tantek> sreynen - good point
  439. [18:52:13] <tantek> Phae, but that's good that they jump straight into the discuss list
  440. [18:52:20] <Phae> You think?
  441. [18:52:21] <bewest> Phae: agreed. but even the proposals for what to do about that are forthcoming all the time
  442. [18:52:25] <Phae> I'd like to see the wiki pages better maintained.
  443. [18:52:27] <tantek> we want folks new to microformats to feel welcome
  444. [18:52:33] <Phae> I've put question on the wiki for htem to be ignored.
  445. [18:52:37] <Phae> questions*
  446. [18:53:06] <tantek> Phae, you're right, and thanks much for your help with the FAQ pages
  447. [18:53:19] <bewest> Phae: part of the problem is that people propose things and then create new pages, furthering the fragmentation in that effort
  448. [18:53:20] <Phae> No where near started :P but things like that need to be looked after more
  449. [18:53:26] <tantek> I'd be interested to know what other topics on the wiki you're interested in helping improve
  450. [18:53:33] <Phae> and those people who have started wiki-FAQ and discuss pages should make sure to look after them
  451. [18:53:38] <Phae> and respond to queries and ideas that get put there
  452. [18:53:46] <tantek> yes
  453. [18:53:57] <tantek> but sometimes there are only 24 hours in a day
  454. [18:54:13] <Phae> I realise that :P
  455. [18:54:31] <Phae> But pages don't get updated or looked at (it seems) for months
  456. [18:54:44] <Phae> which makes it all look and feel a bit stagnant..
  457. [18:55:57] <Phae> Sorry. Tangent, but I do think if you want to cut down on the newbie-ish threads, you need a better maintained wiki
  458. [18:57:16] <kingryan> sreynen: you have a good point- we can keep the rule, but just enforce it differently. Currently our policy is that you're unqualified until you prove otherwise- we can invert that, but keep the same expectations.
  459. [18:57:38] <sreynen> sounds good to me
  460. [19:01:59] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9488 * Phae * (+65) Voting
  461. [19:02:47] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  462. [19:03:02] <Phae> wb
  463. [19:03:57] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  464. [19:04:33] * Form (n=form@82-204-23-140.dsl.bbeyond.nl) has joined #microformats
  465. [19:04:48] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  466. [19:04:48] <tantek_> ugh
  467. [19:04:55] <tantek_> darn net disconnects
  468. [19:05:06] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  469. [19:05:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  470. [19:07:19] <rohit> tantek: the darn apple battery recall has sent another technorati sticker to the dustbin in the sky :) :(
  471. [19:07:35] <tantek> or at least the landfill
  472. [19:07:37] <rohit> unintended consequences for us stickerphiles :)
  473. [19:08:07] * blueNine (n=chris@88-107-14-52.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Lost terminal")
  474. [19:08:40] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9489 * BenWest * (+27) voting
  475. [19:09:46] <bewest> I don't see how -research, -process, -suggest, -propose are substantially different
  476. [19:09:55] <bewest> from a practical perspective
  477. [19:10:28] <Phae> they're not that different. research is the only one I like because it doesn't insinuate that a format has to necessarily be suggested... it's more general.
  478. [19:12:01] <kingryan> sreynen: for your redirect writing pleasure: http://microformats.org/temp/404.txt
  479. [19:12:23] <sreynen> great, thanks
  480. [19:12:24] <kingryan> those are pages around the size of the mediawiki empty page
  481. [19:13:08] <sreynen> bewest, from my perspective -suggest and -propose encourage actions that we want to discourage
  482. [19:13:26] <tantek> Phae, I like -research as well because it can continue even for established formats
  483. [19:13:32] <Phae> yeah
  484. [19:13:34] <Phae> Exactly
  485. [19:13:45] <kingryan> sreynen: actually let me redo it with 200's only (there's a bunch of 304's in there)
  486. [19:13:47] * _psy[datacenter] (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
  487. [19:13:53] <sreynen> ok
  488. [19:14:35] * _psychic1_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  489. [19:16:29] <bewest> is the main page of the wiki considered "stable" or what?
  490. [19:16:57] <mfbot> [[HCalendarIssues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=HCalendarIssues&diff=0&oldid=9490 * ScottReynen * (-1)
  491. [19:17:38] <kingryan> I suppose, bewest, why do you ask?
  492. [19:18:01] <bewest> http://simile.mit.edu/solvent/ I like how they have /very/ FAQs on the main page of each project... specifically "What is this?" "What can I do here?" "Why do we do this?"...
  493. [19:18:07] <bewest> I think it reads it a bit clearer
  494. [19:18:08] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=9491 * Phae * (+41) minor tweaks
  495. [19:18:32] <kingryan> sreynen: list updated to include only 200's in the range
  496. [19:18:44] <bewest> some of the information on the main page overlaps with what I believe people are interested in, but it's not quite the same focus and is a bit hard to read
  497. [19:19:00] <sreynen> thanks ryan
  498. [19:19:00] <kingryan> I agree
  499. [19:19:07] <kingryan> I've had a todo item to trim the homepage for awhile
  500. [19:19:13] <Phae> mm.. I do like that, bewest
  501. [19:19:19] <kingryan> we just need to make sure that nothing gets lost or ophaned
  502. [19:19:20] <bewest> perhaps a more rigid structure (like a skeleton outline for certain types of pages) would solve a lot of the complaints about the wiki being hard to read etc....
  503. [19:19:36] <kingryan> bewest: we've tried to to that with the specs a bit
  504. [19:19:41] <bewest> right, with the specs
  505. [19:19:45] <tantek> bewest - if you have specific suggestion, add them to a section with your name on it in the "to-do" page
  506. [19:19:50] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume is a big improvement over the previous ones (IMNSHO)
  507. [19:19:59] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9492 * AndyMabbett * (+95)
  508. [19:20:04] <bewest> kingryan: :-)
  509. [19:20:24] <kingryan> and there was a plan at some point to "backport" that organization to older specs
  510. [19:20:32] <Phae> To be honest bewest... I think it's one of those things that we should start improving as we see the need.
  511. [19:20:44] <Phae> I'm guilty of talking about it more than doing it, so I'm going to stop that :P
  512. [19:20:47] <bewest> Phae: what do you mean
  513. [19:20:49] <bewest> oh right right
  514. [19:21:01] <bewest> yes, it's very seductive
  515. [19:21:02] <bewest> talk is easy
  516. [19:21:09] <tantek> kingryan, bewest, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#update_specification_section_organization
  517. [19:21:10] <Phae> Well.. rather than saying.. we should do this.. it'd be awesome. Just do it :) It's a wiki. If everyone hates it, it'll get rolled back :D
  518. [19:21:35] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9493 * JustinThorp * (+18)
  519. [19:21:46] <tantek> kingryan, it makes more sense to discuss the reorganization that we experimented with in hResume on the list etc.
  520. [19:21:56] <sreynen> the people like the voting
  521. [19:22:11] <tantek> yeah - I didn't react in time to do the same for currency stuff
  522. [19:22:18] <tantek> having a "poll" on a separate
  523. [19:22:19] <tantek> site
  524. [19:22:24] <kingryan> why discuss it? I think it's proven to be useful
  525. [19:22:26] <tantek> is not as useful/flexible
  526. [19:22:28] <kingryan> just do it
  527. [19:22:43] <tantek> how has it been proven?
  528. [19:23:01] <kingryan> people have said "the hresume page is easier to read"
  529. [19:23:03] <tantek> we discuss it because you and I are not the only ones interested in helping contribute to improvement of the usability of the wiki
  530. [19:23:13] <kingryan> I think it's easier to read (but I wrote it, so I don't really count)
  531. [19:23:18] <tantek> and others will likely have better ideas too
  532. [19:23:25] <tantek> makes sense to have some amount of community buy-in
  533. [19:23:31] <kingryan> I think starting with our improvements is a good first step
  534. [19:23:33] <tantek> kingryan, I too think it is easier to read
  535. [19:24:00] <tantek> I think so too - but would rather involve more community input - since many others have expressed interested in helping with readability/usability
  536. [19:24:03] <kingryan> we can implement our ideas first, the The Community can add more suggestions (and even implement them)
  537. [19:24:11] <kingryan> tantek, it *is* a wiki
  538. [19:24:18] <kingryan> The Community can edit it
  539. [19:24:44] <kingryan> http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/
  540. [19:24:50] <tantek> for smaller incremental improvements that works fine
  541. [19:24:54] <bewest> kingryan: Andy would agree
  542. [19:24:58] <tantek> for reorganization/rewrites it doesn't work
  543. [19:25:04] <tantek> you just get thrash
  544. [19:25:08] <kingryan> the community doesn't edit those pages on the wiki because they're looking to us for approval
  545. [19:25:18] <tantek> kingryan, there is some of that
  546. [19:25:26] <tantek> but there is some of the "edit too much" also
  547. [19:25:36] <tantek> why not simply let the discussion take place?
  548. [19:25:42] <Phae> that's true. I know I wouldn't feel "comfortable" re-writing or re-organising an entire, well-established, section
  549. [19:25:45] * bewest concurs with tantek
  550. [19:25:46] <kingryan> less talk, more rock!
  551. [19:25:56] <tantek> not when more rock wastes time for everyone
  552. [19:26:03] <tantek> and causes more thrash
  553. [19:26:18] <KevinMarks> we don't really use the talk pages on the wiki
  554. [19:26:20] <kingryan> go ahead, have the discussion
  555. [19:26:21] <bewest> it's a fuzzy line, eh?
  556. [19:26:26] <kingryan> I'm just sayin...
  557. [19:26:28] <tantek> KevinMarks - we have the list for that
  558. [19:26:31] <KevinMarks> which is different from the wikipedia pattern
  559. [19:26:34] <bewest> KevinMarks: that may be a solution... encourage talk use?
  560. [19:26:36] <kingryan> KevinMarks: that's on purpose
  561. [19:26:38] <KevinMarks> right
  562. [19:26:44] <bewest> tantek: but the list is being used to talk about work
  563. [19:26:45] * Form (n=form@82-204-23-140.dsl.bbeyond.nl) has left #microformats
  564. [19:26:47] <kingryan> ...because that's a bad way to have a discussion
  565. [19:26:58] <KevinMarks> well, it's a scale thing
  566. [19:27:13] <bewest> tantek: the talk pages allow people to test out real ideas where they will actually be implemented...
  567. [19:27:17] <pnhOldbook> but if we start using talk we have to deal with what goes in talk vs. what goes in -discuss
  568. [19:27:34] <KevinMarks> it is one way to stop the same discussions recurring
  569. [19:27:41] <bewest> pnhOldbook: aren't we already dealing with what goes into -discuss, regardless?
  570. [19:27:54] <Phae> I don't think the talk pages would get used anymore than the research and FAQ pages for specific formats get used, anyway
  571. [19:28:02] <Phae> discuss is just *faster*
  572. [19:28:06] <Phae> and we're all impatient people
  573. [19:28:07] <KevinMarks> the list just about works at our current scale, but I don't read all the threads
  574. [19:29:14] <pnhOldbook> bewest: just raising a potential concern.. its just another place for things in that middle is it meta- or spec stuff to get lost
  575. [19:29:40] <pnhOldbook> (and i didn't mean the list sorry.. i meant -issues)
  576. [19:29:58] <bewest> pnhOldbook: ok, to clarify: I'm not talking about spec pages
  577. [19:30:20] <bewest> pnhOldbook: I'm talking about pages like the main page or all the pages revolving around "getting started" issues
  578. [19:30:29] <pnhOldbook> gotcha
  579. [19:31:14] <bewest> the -discuss lists generates lots of proposals, more fragmentation on the wiki, and not much else. using the talk pages on existing pages might encourage more incremental work
  580. [19:31:33] <KevinMarks> ah. now I've read the thread on -discuss
  581. [19:31:44] <kingryan> back to the subject of reorganizing old spec pages....
  582. [19:32:21] <kingryan> just because the community may have more and better suggestions shouldn't keep us from implementing good ideas for improvement we already have
  583. [19:32:22] <bewest> Phae: are you interested in spec pages or supporting pages?
  584. [19:32:33] <Phae> both :P
  585. [19:32:38] <Phae> In this conversation - support.
  586. [19:32:42] <bewest> right
  587. [19:32:45] <KevinMarks> in Andy's 'rewrite hCalendar spec' example, putting his refactoring on the Talk page might make sense. I have seen that work fairly well in contentious areas on wikipedia
  588. [19:33:08] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  589. [19:33:35] <bewest> ok so under the category of "making the wiki easier to use" there are two areas which might use different techniques? how to reorganize specs versus how to make "support" pages more useful?
  590. [19:33:37] <bewest> is that accurate?
  591. [19:33:47] <Phae> yeah.
  592. [19:33:50] <kingryan> certainly, though they overlap
  593. [19:33:55] <tantek_> ugh - dropped off again
  594. [19:34:01] <Phae> of course.
  595. [19:34:20] <Phae> specs need to be clearer, for one, and supporting pages need to be better maintained as people use them
  596. [19:34:36] <bewest> specs also have a special need to be "stable", correct?
  597. [19:34:47] <KevinMarks> the way hCalendar RPC's to iCalendar for the field list is a bit confusing; putting a list of the fields in the spec itself would be good
  598. [19:34:53] <Phae> well... ideally. stable formats should have stable reference points.
  599. [19:35:03] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  600. [19:35:07] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  601. [19:35:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  602. [19:35:11] <bewest> Phae: not sure I followed you
  603. [19:35:38] * tantek 's last several messages never made it to the channel
  604. [19:35:45] <KevinMarks> ah
  605. [19:35:53] <Phae> then? uh... what.
  606. [19:35:54] <Phae> heh
  607. [19:35:56] <KevinMarks> and you likely missed some of ours
  608. [19:36:02] <tantek> but I just read the archvies
  609. [19:36:02] <Phae> I'm listening to a podcast, and my mother just appeared on msn. :/
  610. [19:36:02] <Frederic> Good evening
  611. [19:36:05] <tantek> archives even
  612. [19:36:38] <bewest> Phae: multitasking to the extreme?
  613. [19:36:59] <Phae> yes :(
  614. [19:37:13] <Phae> sorry. what i meant is...
  615. [19:37:30] <Phae> the spec pages are mostly... overcomplicated and don't have enough quick-start help
  616. [19:37:41] <Phae> and there are often supporting pages that look like they encourage questions and such
  617. [19:37:44] <Phae> but are never responded to
  618. [19:38:04] <bewest> hmmm
  619. [19:38:24] <Phae> I'm a fan of recording *everything*
  620. [19:38:29] <Phae> mostly because I don't like repeating myself
  621. [19:38:43] <Phae> and i know we have mail archives, but they're not the easiest thing to use for a new person
  622. [19:38:58] <bewest> we need some IA, basically
  623. [19:39:00] <tantek> Phae, I agree
  624. [19:39:08] <tantek> mail archives suck for findability
  625. [19:39:14] <bewest> is there a way to run a card sort on the list/wiki?
  626. [19:39:30] <bewest> perhaps that could give the community some guiding direction on how things should be organized
  627. [19:39:34] <Phae> it's why i'm trying to start off that "rejected-formats" list, because I don't like reading about the same ideas, that just don't work, reguarly
  628. [19:39:34] <Phae> heh
  629. [19:39:43] <Phae> but that'll mean i need to go back through the archives
  630. [19:39:50] <Phae> which i'll do on a day i have nothing else to do :/
  631. [19:39:51] <tantek> Phae, not necessarily
  632. [19:39:57] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  633. [19:39:57] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  634. [19:39:59] <tantek> we can think of formats in a spectrum of stages
  635. [19:40:01] <Phae> hey drew
  636. [19:40:07] <tantek> from rejeted to wel establisehd
  637. [19:40:12] <Phae> yea
  638. [19:40:20] <tantek> and all sorts of "idea" "problem defined" "researched" etc. inbetween
  639. [19:40:40] * tantek catches up with IRC archives
  640. [19:40:45] <tantek> a few catchup responses:
  641. [19:41:00] <Phae> yeah, but there's some things that just don't work. the example i've logged so far was that one drew and i wasted a day on
  642. [19:41:07] <drewinthehead> greetings, people of the internets
  643. [19:41:16] <tantek> Phae, that's true too
  644. [19:41:19] <bewest> the people of the internets greet you, drewinthehead
  645. [19:41:21] <tantek> greetings drew
  646. [19:41:39] <tantek> re: scaling (Talk pages). Not a scale thing Kevin. different in content. Wikipedia pages can locally figure out what's best for them whereas standards/specs etc. help if there is more globally agreed upon style/organization etc.
  647. [19:41:52] <tantek> re: it is one way to stop the same discussions recurring. KevinMarks - you can document discussion resolutions on the wiki in *-issues and then simply reference those in email with permalinks.
  648. [19:42:00] <tantek> we're not using Talk pages. that's why they are removed from the UI of the wiki.
  649. [19:42:05] <tantek> intro questions about wiki pages is perfectly core for uf-discuss
  650. [19:42:24] <tantek> kingryan, you and I and other "oldtimers" in particular have a responsibility to more overtly solicit input and encourage participation by more folks in the community in such things as how to make pages more usable.
  651. [19:42:33] <tantek> of course it is *easier* if you or I etc. just go make the changes, but it is better if we encourage others who have already spoken up to also help, as Kevin might say, it scales better in the long run (more active, harmoniously cooperating participants), even if it is slower in the short run.
  652. [19:43:11] * tantek verifies his text made it to the IRC log. :)
  653. [19:43:18] <Phae> it did, tantek
  654. [19:43:26] <tantek> bbiab - I have to go
  655. [19:43:34] <Phae> :)
  656. [19:44:54] <bewest> Phae: so which is the focus on the wiki? the spec pages, or quick start support pages that funnel interested readers to the specs?
  657. [19:45:17] <Phae> currently?
  658. [19:45:25] * drewinthehead_ (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  659. [19:45:43] <drewinthehead> ah .. that's me
  660. [19:45:50] <Phae> I think it'd encourage more use to have quick-starts to the foreground
  661. [19:45:59] <Phae> but specs there for those that wish to use them
  662. [19:46:01] * drewinthehead_ (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  663. [19:46:40] <Phae> Coming face-to-face with a spec as your first encounter with microformats doesn't exactly make them welcoming
  664. [19:46:46] <bewest> right
  665. [19:49:37] <sreynen> i don't think it will work to move the specs away from where they are now, but if we had good quick start pages in a standard location, i'd start pointing people there instead of the spec pages
  666. [19:49:53] <Phae> mm
  667. [19:50:13] <Phae> it's a toughie.
  668. [19:51:10] <drewinthehead> like /wiki/hcard-info ?
  669. [19:51:18] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) Quit ()
  670. [19:51:22] <drewinthehead> and /wiki/rel-tag-info
  671. [19:51:42] * Phae looks.
  672. [19:51:53] <tantek> like hcard-authoring
  673. [19:51:59] <tantek> like hcalendar-authoring
  674. [19:52:14] <tantek> we could also start *-intro pages
  675. [19:52:17] <mfbot> [[hcalander]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalander * ScottReynen * (+23) Misspelling redirect
  676. [19:52:25] <tantek> to provide quick intros
  677. [19:52:45] <tantek> and *-tutorial pages to provide longer detailed introductions and tutorials about each microformat
  678. [19:52:58] <drewinthehead> can we have deeper hierarchies?
  679. [19:53:04] * ajturner_ (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  680. [19:53:11] <drewinthehead> like /wiki/learn/hcard
  681. [19:53:13] <mfbot> [[hcal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcal * ScottReynen * (+23) Common abbreviation redirect
  682. [19:53:15] * whereisbot (n=whereisb@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  683. [19:53:25] * _psychic1_ is now known as _psychic_
  684. [19:53:54] <tantek> BTW - this is why at the top of hCard and hCalendar the first thing after the intro paragraph is a sentence (or two) directing new folks to the hCard creator and hcard-authoring pages
  685. [19:54:34] <KevinMarks> tantek - do you agree that a list of hCalendar fields in the spec would be a useful addition?
  686. [19:54:49] <tantek> Kevinmarks - did you see my email on the list about that?
  687. [19:55:14] <mfbot> [[date]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/date * ScottReynen * (+37) Common (?) abbreviation redirect
  688. [19:55:35] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9494 * BenWest * (+1072) Ben West (bewest) - added wiki revision to my todo list. can we converge on organization goals?
  689. [19:56:18] <tantek> thanks bewest
  690. [19:56:31] <bewest> mmmm don't thank me too soon
  691. [19:56:35] <KevinMarks> not yet
  692. [19:56:35] <bewest> haven't done any work yet
  693. [19:56:51] <mfbot> [[resume]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/resume * ScottReynen * (+21) Common abbreviation redirect
  694. [19:57:29] <tantek> bewest, even just outlining what you think needs to happen, in a public place like that is progress
  695. [19:57:40] <tantek> the goal here is to invite collaboration on such matters
  696. [19:57:44] <tantek> and encourage
  697. [19:57:50] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  698. [19:57:51] <tantek> since there are a bunch of people that want to help make it happen
  699. [19:58:03] <tantek> all of whom almost certainly have different ideas as to how to "best" do it
  700. [19:58:06] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  701. [19:58:35] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  702. [19:58:47] <Phae> gr
  703. [19:58:50] <tantek> Ernie wanted to do the same thing "F
  704. [19:58:52] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|lunch
  705. [19:58:54] <tantek> Phae, yeah
  706. [20:00:12] <KevinMarks> OK, now I have read the whole thread and I still don't see and answer to that
  707. [20:00:48] <bewest> tantek: you think it's worth bringing up on the list? perhaps with something actually on the wiki in a place designated as a work area we can get some intertia and get some consensus going
  708. [20:01:10] <tantek> bewest, i'm worried about the list-thrash-noise potential
  709. [20:01:22] <tantek> I'd rather that folks attempted to organize their own thoughts first - using their own to-do sections
  710. [20:01:49] <bewest> there are clearly lots of people, including Andy, who are prepared to help. thrash/noise comes from a lack of convergence of goals
  711. [20:02:02] <KevinMarks> having to go and read RFC2445 to know what the field names are is offputting, especially when you then discuss them in detail in the following sections
  712. [20:02:04] <tantek> and from a lack of desire to listen to others
  713. [20:02:11] <bewest> in that case, I will simply add my 2 cents to the current thread
  714. [20:03:58] <tantek> KevinMarks - I said: That is very reasonable, the right thing to do then is to add a section
  715. [20:04:02] <tantek> similar to the section in hCard which serves that purpose, *without doing
  716. [20:04:04] <tantek> any other changes*.
  717. [20:04:31] <tantek> at the top of the message from me at 12:13pm on the uf-discuss list
  718. [20:06:17] <KevinMarks> ah right sorry
  719. [20:06:17] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  720. [20:06:38] <KevinMarks> lost that in Andy's rhetorical overdose
  721. [20:06:46] <tantek> right
  722. [20:06:58] <sreynen> i think it would be best for the microformats community if someone else started responding to andy
  723. [20:07:03] <tantek> his most recent message appears to indicate he didn't read my previous message thoroughly either
  724. [20:07:08] <tantek> I'm not sure how to best follow-up
  725. [20:07:18] <tantek> sreynen, point taken. thanks.
  726. [20:07:31] <bewest> I'm replying now with the invite to comment on changes in the to-do section
  727. [20:07:40] <tantek> thanks bewest
  728. [20:07:42] <sreynen> nothing against tantek, but andy seems to have an evil villain picture in his mind
  729. [20:07:52] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  730. [20:08:23] <KevinMarks> looking at hCard, the property list would make more sense under 'In General', before 'More Semantic Equivalents'
  731. [20:08:30] <sreynen> i'd respond myself, but i think he has the same picture of me
  732. [20:08:31] <tantek> sreynen, i suppose we can't all be evil villains right, and if we are, then what's the point of being on the list? ;)
  733. [20:08:34] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  734. [20:09:03] <sreynen> indeed
  735. [20:09:05] <tantek> KevinMarks - perhaps add that to your section on the to-do page
  736. [20:09:26] <tantek> as specific suggestions will likely get as lost here as they do on the mailing list when there is a lot of traffic
  737. [20:09:30] <KevinMarks> right
  738. [20:09:36] <tantek> thanks!
  739. [20:16:53] <cgriego> it seems to me that wiki/* (where people are mostly likely to go) should be the intro page and it should link to wiki/*-spec
  740. [20:17:21] <bewest> cgriego: me too. do you have a to-do section?
  741. [20:17:36] <cgriego> I do not
  742. [20:18:11] <bewest> cgriego: then I invite you to A.) leave a comment in my to-do section with your name stating as such or B.) Starting your own to-do section and commenting there
  743. [20:19:33] * _psychic1_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  744. [20:21:33] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-227-40.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  745. [20:22:27] <bewest> hmmm you know what would be cool?
  746. [20:22:49] <bewest> for my blog posts tagged as microformat and todo to automatically show up in my wiki to-do section
  747. [20:23:13] * ajturner_ is now known as ajturner
  748. [20:25:38] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9495 * Cgriego * (+475) Commented in bewest's section on wiki/* as an intro page and wiki/*-spec.
  749. [20:25:39] * bengee (n=bengee@muedsl-82-207-128-166.citykom.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  750. [20:25:50] <bewest> cgriego: thanks
  751. [20:26:05] <cgriego> bewest: np
  752. [20:26:09] * _psychic1_ is now known as _psychic_
  753. [20:26:28] <bewest> cgriego: this intro page would look something like "What is this?" "Why are we doing this?" "Current Status?" "Simple Example"
  754. [20:26:33] <bewest> ?
  755. [20:26:48] <bewest> brb
  756. [20:28:17] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
  757. [20:29:38] <cgriego> bewest: right, just enough to get people started and then where to look for more info
  758. [20:33:44] <Ashley`> I think hCard should have a boolean "Evil Villain" value.
  759. [20:37:04] <KevinMarks> http://technorati.com/tag/microformat%20AND%20todo
  760. [20:39:08] <tantek> Hi Ashley
  761. [20:39:26] <tantek> you can simply use the "categories" as "tags" and tag an hCard as "Evil Villain"
  762. [20:39:28] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("shvoooooooommm!")
  763. [20:39:30] <tantek> that should work
  764. [20:39:33] <tantek> ;)
  765. [20:39:52] <Ashley`> Ooh, man. I really need to get a grip on hCard.
  766. [20:40:01] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  767. [20:40:31] <Ashley`> Thanks tantek. :-)
  768. [20:41:46] <tantek> np
  769. [20:43:00] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  770. [20:43:52] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  771. [20:44:25] <Ashley`> So you can add <x class="category">Villain</x>
  772. [20:44:44] <Ashley`> Can you have something more definition-like... As in Villain=Evil, or something?
  773. [20:44:59] <tantek> why? at it's simplest it is just a label
  774. [20:45:06] <tantek> its simplest
  775. [20:45:46] <Ashley`> I'm just thinking for parsing. I'm musing over writing some software that's going to need to parse some attributes like that, but I'm not sure how to do it.
  776. [20:47:25] <KevinMarks> key value pairs in hCard, or more generally?
  777. [20:47:47] <Ashley`> More generally. I'm going to try come up with a decentralised social network.
  778. [20:47:59] <Ashley`> Well, beyond XFN.
  779. [20:48:55] <Ashley`> You know, categories could work anyway.
  780. [20:49:25] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9496 * Tantek * (+81) add property list to hCalendar - duh how did I forget this?
  781. [20:51:04] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  782. [20:54:06] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9497 * AndyMabbett * (+3) [[hcalendar|hCalendar]] - correction
  783. [20:54:07] <drewinthehead> have you checked out rel-tag, Ashley? perhaps rel-tag + XFN does what you need
  784. [20:55:31] <KevinMarks> I'd say see how far you can go with tagging, before worrying about key-value pairs
  785. [20:55:53] <KevinMarks> tagging is much simpler for people to grasp generally
  786. [20:56:04] <Ashley`> That's probably more what I'm looking for, rather than using categories on an hcard.
  787. [20:56:04] <drewinthehead> and very flexible
  788. [20:57:03] <KevinMarks> another interesting use is in hReview, where you can rate the thing you're reviewing on different tags
  789. [20:57:21] <Ashley`> What do you mean?
  790. [20:57:56] <KevinMarks> say you're reviewing a restaurant you cna give it 3 stars on food and 2 on ambience
  791. [20:58:08] <Ashley`> Oh, that's cool. :-)
  792. [20:58:26] <Ashley`> I could've used that the other day.
  793. [20:58:33] <KevinMarks> it uses rel-tag fro those
  794. [20:59:09] <KevinMarks> li class="rating"><a href="http://flickr.com/photos/tags/Ambience" rel="tag">
  795. [20:59:09] <KevinMarks> Ambience: <span class="value">19</span>/<span class="best">30</span></a>;</li>
  796. [20:59:59] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  797. [21:01:51] * _psychic1_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  798. [21:02:50] <Ashley`> This might sound strange, but is there a way to categorise tags?
  799. [21:04:40] <Ashley`> I'm aiming to let the user publish different interests, by category. For example under the music category they'd have a bunch of favourite artists. Is that even an okay use?
  800. [21:05:34] * _psychic1_ is now known as _psychic_
  801. [21:05:41] <KevinMarks> hm
  802. [21:06:27] <KevinMarks> rel-tag deliberately leaves the scope a little vague so other formats that sue it cna tighten it up
  803. [21:06:44] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-185-123.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  804. [21:06:58] <bewest> litigious formats, eh?
  805. [21:07:00] <KevinMarks> usually, tag overlap isn't a big problem;
  806. [21:07:04] <KevinMarks> bah
  807. [21:11:16] <bewest> do we have/need a wiki-complaints page for people to record their experience of using the wiki?
  808. [21:11:19] <bewest> to-do is different
  809. [21:11:30] <bewest> I'm interested in collecting a list of places people had trouble reading
  810. [21:11:51] <bewest> typically people will respond, such as Roger when I asked him for clarification on why he was having trouble with fn + org
  811. [21:12:08] <bewest> putting that type of thing on the to-do page doesn't seem quite right
  812. [21:12:37] <bewest> and just now Justin Thorp has described his problems with "not seeing page on authoring"
  813. [21:13:18] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
  814. [21:14:19] <bewest> he also had a suggestion for a sidebar
  815. [21:14:27] <bewest> where does such a thing go?
  816. [21:14:34] <bewest> to-do page again seems kind of inapropriate
  817. [21:15:40] <pnhOldbook> on tag spaces you could certainly use different tag clouds/spaces for different topics (via the url / href) but I'm not sure how well that would be
  818. [21:16:00] <pnhOldbook> ... would be enforced outside of your specific application
  819. [21:16:40] <pnhOldbook> (that data often gets stripped/ignored by consuming applications)
  820. [21:16:48] <Ashley`> Well, KevinMarks said that tag overlap isn't a big problem, and I think I agree.
  821. [21:17:58] <KevinMarks> if they are your own tagspaces, you could have http://ashley.com/tag/artist/Pink and http://ashley.com/album/Pink
  822. [21:18:32] <kingryan|lunch> bewest: how about /wiki/wiki-feedback ?
  823. [21:18:34] <KevinMarks> or you could use last.fm as a tagspace
  824. [21:18:46] <pnhOldbook> exactly.. though it will probably wind up being combined with the color by some applications regardless
  825. [21:19:15] <Ashley`> KevinMarks: That's hat I was thinking, but ultimately it'll be up to the user if they want to change it.
  826. [21:19:21] <KevinMarks> http://www.last.fm/music/New+Order
  827. [21:19:41] <KevinMarks> they do artist/album/track
  828. [21:19:52] <KevinMarks> http://www.last.fm/music/New+Order/Substance+1987
  829. [21:20:49] <bewest> kingryan|lunch: I'm on it
  830. [21:21:03] <KevinMarks> as well as having a general tagspace
  831. [21:21:05] * kingryan|lunch is now known as kingryan
  832. [21:21:17] <KevinMarks> http://www.last.fm/tag/80s
  833. [21:22:02] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  834. [21:22:15] <KevinMarks> hm, their data has got a lot more filled out since I last looked at it
  835. [21:22:17] <KevinMarks> cool
  836. [21:23:23] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-feedback * BenWest * (+682) started wiki feedback page. added two examples
  837. [21:23:44] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9498 * BenWest * (+12)
  838. [21:24:18] <pnhOldbook> i used it for a little while.. twice.. but i never really did anything but let it 'listen' to me
  839. [21:24:20] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9499 * BenWest * (+14)
  840. [21:31:23] * bewest has been very disappointed with last.fm
  841. [21:31:31] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9500 * Ashley * (+345)
  842. [21:31:35] <bewest> too many things are tagged just plain wrong
  843. [21:31:54] <bewest> when beethoven is tagged as bach and they don't support fixing it, I can't use it
  844. [21:31:54] <Ashley`> Really? I've been pretty impressed so far.
  845. [21:32:09] <KevinMarks> well, tags are subjective
  846. [21:32:34] <bewest> ok, but I don't like Beethoven tagged as Bach :-)
  847. [21:32:40] <bewest> I might just be a snob though
  848. [21:33:02] <KevinMarks> they don't really address the performer/composer problem
  849. [21:33:07] <KevinMarks> but then no-one really does
  850. [21:33:17] <kingryan> snobs don't like tags
  851. [21:33:21] <bewest> also, Enya and other inapropriate stuff is tagged as jazz
  852. [21:33:22] <kingryan> snobs like ontologies
  853. [21:33:38] * drewinthehead is a dreadful snob and thinks tags rawk.
  854. [21:33:45] <KevinMarks> evidently everyone defining mp3 tags didn't listen to classical music much
  855. [21:33:46] <bewest> when I'm expecting to hear Myles Davis and then all of a sudden get Enya...
  856. [21:33:57] <bewest> the effect on me is severe
  857. [21:34:11] * bewest is completely intolerant to that kind of thing
  858. [21:34:26] <bewest> I'm getting the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it
  859. [21:35:29] <Ashley`> Haha. I'm shocking classifying genres of music, but that's just terrible.
  860. [21:40:37] <KevinMarks> consensus tags are hard
  861. [21:40:43] <mlinksva> kingryan, has nothing to do with ontologies vs tags. one can incorrectly choose jazz from an ontology as easily as they can type "jazz" in a tag field ... if they think enya is jazz. in both cases you want to filter out bogus assertions, but doing so is almost completely orthogonal to ontologies vs tags.
  862. [21:41:46] <kingryan> I know mlinksva, the thing is, with tags, there is no *correct* answer. Whereas with an ontology there is.
  863. [21:41:47] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  864. [21:41:47] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  865. [21:41:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  866. [21:43:47] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9501 * BenWest * (+274) Complaints: - doing a search on "trouble" in the mailing list... added Andy's coworker's troubles
  867. [21:46:02] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  868. [21:47:21] <mlinksva> i disagree, unless you consider tags semantically meaningless and ontologies' meaning precisely defined, neither of which is true for practical purposes ... but who cares :)
  869. [21:48:00] * kingryan really wants to say "that depends on what you mean by meaning", but knows better
  870. [21:48:57] <bewest> ontologies are for things that already mean something. tags are for things that might mean something. both can contain false assertions?
  871. [21:49:34] <tantek> ontologies are better for things that are static and don't change over time.
  872. [21:49:37] <tantek> oh wait...
  873. [21:52:04] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9502 * BenWest * (+335) added the common complaint that there is no place capturing "rejected" or "dead" ideas. result is repeated discussion and effort.
  874. [21:54:10] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9503 * BenWest * (+0) Complaints: - minor formatting
  875. [21:55:21] <tantek> bewest, wiki-feedback page is a great idea, thanks for creating that
  876. [21:55:33] <bewest> np
  877. [21:58:00] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  878. [21:58:16] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9504 * BenWest * (+433) What can I do here? - some instructions on use.
  879. [21:59:06] <bewest> gah.. evidently I don't know how to make links properly
  880. [22:00:52] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9505 * BenWest * (+31) What can I do here? -
  881. [22:02:58] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  882. [22:04:08] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9506 * BenWest * (+493) What can I do here? - suggestions for places to look for complaints
  883. [22:04:34] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9507 * BenWest * (-1) What can I do here? -
  884. [22:04:55] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9508 * BenWest * (+1) What can I do here? -
  885. [22:07:11] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9509 * BenWest * (+81) Information Architecture - request for help, link to wiki-feedback
  886. [22:08:12] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9510 * BenWest * (-1) Complaints: - fixed link to my name
  887. [22:10:06] <Ashley`> bewest: You can type four tildes and it'll sign your name automagically.
  888. [22:10:15] <Ashley`> ~~~~
  889. [22:10:17] <bewest> aha :-) thanks for the tip!
  890. [22:10:24] <bewest> I was wondering how you did it
  891. [22:11:18] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9511 * BenWest * (+52) Frances Berriman - shameless attempt to recruit resident usability expert.
  892. [22:11:31] <bewest> *ahem*
  893. [22:11:59] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9512 * BenWest * (+69) Complaints: - fix my name again
  894. [22:12:02] <bewest> hah... it works
  895. [22:14:08] <Ashley`> Well, I'm off. It's been great talking in here -- I've got more reconnaissance done for my app in a few minutes than I have in the last week. ^_^
  896. [22:14:48] * danja (n=danja@host160-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  897. [22:15:45] <mfbot> [[User:BenWest]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:BenWest * BenWest * (+351) my personal wiki page
  898. [22:16:36] <mfbot> [[User:BenWest]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BenWest&diff=0&oldid=9513 * BenWest * (+4) See Also - fix links
  899. [22:18:19] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  900. [22:41:37] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  901. [22:57:43] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  902. [23:03:25] <KevinMarks> ontologies try to be hard-edged and disjoint; tags are overlapping and fuzzy
  903. [23:03:44] <KevinMarks> David weinberger is writing a whole book about this
  904. [23:10:11] * pnhOldbook (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  905. [23:20:56] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  906. [23:28:55] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  907. [23:30:45] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  909. [23:43:07] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  910. [23:47:10] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

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