IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  8. [00:54:42] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9514 * Tantek * (+536) some links and follow-ups
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  14. [02:32:59] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  15. [02:33:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  17. [03:32:59] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  18. [03:32:59] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  23. [04:19:14] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9515 * BenWest * (+263) Complaints: - added a complaint about not being able to find a list of goals from Mike
  24. [04:22:35] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9516 * BenWest * (+384) added a section to the bottom to propose some process to accompany this page
  25. [04:24:41] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9517 * BenWest * (+159) replied to tantek's comment regarding roger and names in hcards
  26. [04:25:17] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9518 * BenWest * (-2) How Does This Work? - just changed the heading level
  27. [04:31:58] <mfbot> [[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=9519 * BenWest * (+234) Class semantics - added a FAQ for elements being able to contain multiple classes. needs work; see todo note inline.
  28. [04:36:34] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9520 * MikeSchinkel * (+2032) Information Architecture - Added "Mike Schinkel's Comments"
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  32. [04:42:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  33. [04:43:08] <bewes1> 'evening
  34. [04:44:15] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9521 * BenWest * (+50) Complaints: - signed my name on a comment
  35. [04:45:21] <KevinMarks> hello
  36. [04:46:38] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.38) has joined #microformats
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  39. [05:11:13] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
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  42. [05:30:23] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9522 * Ashley * (+204) Complaints: -
  43. [05:37:00] <Frederic> morning
  44. [05:38:00] <veeliam> morning you too!
  45. [05:38:00] <bewes2> morning
  46. [05:45:16] <veeliam> ?isbn 0764597582
  47. [05:45:17] <jibot> Search for 0764597582. Showing first 1 of 1 products
  48. [05:45:17] <jibot> Hacking RSS and Atom $17.74
  49. [05:46:52] <veeliam> ?learn veeliam is there
  50. [05:46:52] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz and he does something at http://zaxbypass.com and here and there
  51. [06:11:33] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
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  53. [06:57:51] * bengee (n=bengee@muedsl-82-207-128-166.citykom.de) has joined #microformats
  54. [06:57:51] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  57. [07:20:18] * danja (n=danja@host94-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  58. [07:20:18] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  59. [07:28:11] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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  67. [08:03:06] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  68. [08:03:06] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  69. [08:05:23] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9523 * AndyMabbett * (+87) Complaints: - clarifications
  70. [08:06:09] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9524 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Complaints: - quotes
  71. [08:07:55] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9525 * AndyMabbett * (+159) Complaints: - What is currently described as a "specification" is no such thing
  72. [08:09:08] * blueNine (n=tigger@host213-123-130-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #microformats
  73. [08:10:21] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9526 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Complaints: - She's never orked a cow
  74. [08:10:35] <blueNine> orked?
  75. [08:10:42] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9527 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Complaints: - sp.
  76. [08:11:23] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9528 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Complaints: - clarify
  77. [08:11:39] <mfbot> [[wiki-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-feedback&diff=0&oldid=9529 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Complaints: - typo
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  80. [08:18:47] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-151-112-44.range81-151.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  81. [08:18:47] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  82. [08:45:36] * iand (n=iand@89.192.3.14) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
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  84. [08:54:42] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-ed44ff7fc5d61801) has joined #microformats
  85. [08:54:42] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  86. [09:05:51] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  87. [09:05:51] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  88. [09:05:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  89. [09:11:12] <veeliam> ?def
  90. [09:11:12] <jibot> Braindump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
  91. [09:11:17] <veeliam> ?def veeliam
  92. [09:11:17] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz and he does something at http://zaxbypass.com and here and there
  93. [09:11:21] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.38) has left #microformats
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  96. [09:35:36] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  97. [09:35:37] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  98. [09:35:43] <mfbot> [[mailing]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  99. [09:35:54] <mfbot> [[mail]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mail * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  100. [09:36:15] <mfbot> [[email]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/email * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  101. [09:36:19] <McNulty> Can anyone tell me whether the hAtom author markup I've used at http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com is valid?
  102. [09:36:36] <mfbot> [[e-mail]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/e-mail * AndyMabbett * (+27) redriect
  103. [09:37:12] <mfbot> [[mailinglists]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mailinglists * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  104. [09:37:38] <mfbot> [[mailinglist]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/mailinglist * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  105. [09:38:03] <trovster> Looks good to me
  106. [09:38:14] <mfbot> [[discuss]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/discuss * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  107. [09:38:17] <McNulty> hatom2atom doesn't seem to like the a.include on the author
  108. [09:38:18] <trovster> Can add hatom to the body, but it's implied (AFAIK)
  109. [09:38:31] <McNulty> oh I hought hfeed was the root element
  110. [09:38:50] <mfbot> [[dev]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/dev * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  111. [09:38:58] <trovster> You can have multiple hfeeds per page, too
  112. [09:39:16] <McNulty> hm
  113. [09:40:21] <mfbot> [[Talk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  114. [09:40:37] <mfbot> [[talk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/talk * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  115. [09:41:18] <mfbot> [[User talk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  116. [09:42:09] <mfbot> [[MediaWiki talk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  117. [09:42:10] <McNulty> Maybe hatom2atom just doens't like a.include
  118. [09:42:35] <trovster> Quite possibly.
  119. [09:42:40] <mfbot> [[Template talk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template_talk * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  120. [09:43:26] <trovster> You know, the fn is implied in the vcard.
  121. [09:43:39] <trovster> Also, why is the class name Vcard where everything else is Hanything
  122. [09:44:21] <mfbot> [[Help]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Help * AndyMabbett * (+27) redirect
  123. [09:44:32] <mfbot> [[help]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/help * AndyMabbett * (+27) rediect
  124. [09:45:42] <McNulty> because hCard uses the vCard element names
  125. [09:45:50] <McNulty> and the root element in vCard is 'vcard'
  126. [09:46:17] <McNulty> The fn is implied but I may as well stick it in there anyhow, eh
  127. [09:46:53] <mfbot> [[rel]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel * AndyMabbett * (+38) redirect
  128. [09:49:04] <mfbot> [[hAtom]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hAtom * AndyMabbett * (+19) redirect
  129. [09:49:46] <mfbot> [[Calendar]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Calendar * AndyMabbett * (+23)
  130. [09:50:06] <mfbot> [[calendar]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/calendar * AndyMabbett * (+23) redriect
  131. [09:50:33] <mfbot> [[cal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/cal * AndyMabbett * (+23) redirect
  132. [09:50:59] <mfbot> [[ical]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/ical * AndyMabbett * (+23) redirect
  133. [09:51:29] <mfbot> [[iCal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/iCal * AndyMabbett * (+23) redirect
  134. [09:52:06] <mfbot> [[vCard]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/vCard * AndyMabbett * (+19) redirect
  135. [09:52:22] <mfbot> [[vcard]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard * AndyMabbett * (+19) reirect
  136. [09:52:33] <mfbot> [[card]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/card * AndyMabbett * (+19) redirect
  137. [09:52:54] <mfbot> [[Card]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Card * AndyMabbett * (+19) redirect
  138. [09:53:00] <tantek> what's with all the redirects?
  139. [09:53:28] <McNulty> Andy Mabbett tidying up I suppose
  140. [09:53:58] <tantek> are these actual pages that people have looked for (e.g. from logs), or is it just theoretical words that people might look for?
  141. [09:54:31] <McNulty> I don't know, I'm not aware of a public log though so I'd guess the latter
  142. [09:54:36] <McNulty> It doesn't hurt anything though
  143. [09:54:53] <tantek> I suppose not.
  144. [09:55:12] <tantek> I wonder what policy Wikipedia has on introducing/adding redirects.
  145. [09:55:35] <McNulty> With object.include / a.include, does the include *replace* the inclusion element, or become a child of it?
  146. [09:55:51] <tantek> is that not clear in the spec?
  147. [09:56:05] <tantek> i thought the examples made that clear - if not, we should improve the examples
  148. [09:56:22] <McNulty> ah actually re-reding the spec I glossed over that bit
  149. [09:57:07] <McNulty> hm. I think i'm asking a slightly different question and have phrased it badly
  150. [09:57:24] <McNulty> If my A has other classes than include, does the transcluded element inherit them?
  151. [09:57:45] <McNulty> I am doing <a class="include author"> in an hAtom entry, and don't know if that's valid
  152. [10:01:54] <McNulty> none of the examples on the include-pattern page cover additional classes in the include, so I guess not
  153. [10:04:17] <trovster> Try adding author to the vcard, and see if that chnages, if not, it's just not supported in the parser
  154. [10:08:10] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=9530 * Phae * (+49) Frances Berriman -
  155. [10:09:57] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) has joined #microformats
  156. [10:13:41] <McNulty> Adding author to the vcard does't work
  157. [10:13:53] <McNulty> pasting the vcard element in place does
  158. [10:14:04] <McNulty> I guess hatom2atom just doesn't support the include pattern?
  159. [10:22:32] <tantek> McNulty - that is most probable
  160. [10:24:21] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=9531 * John Allsopp * (+264) Upcoming -
  161. [10:33:37] * danja_ (n=danja@host1-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  162. [10:42:04] <McNulty> tantek - would <a class="include author" href="#vcard"></a> be a valid use of the pattern? Or would it need to be <span class="author"><a class="include" href="#vcard" ></a></span> ?
  163. [10:44:27] <tantek> McNulty, this is an excellent question
  164. [10:44:30] * danja (n=danja@host94-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  165. [10:44:35] <tantek> I can see a case for either interpretation.
  166. [10:44:50] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  167. [10:44:50] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  168. [10:45:16] <trovster> I would say the former, as the latter gives <span class="author"><element class="vcard">
  169. [10:45:50] <McNulty> does the former give <element class="vcard author">? Is there that sort of 'class inheritance'?
  170. [10:46:12] <trovster> I would assume that, yes
  171. [10:46:22] <McNulty> I imagine the most common impementation is to just have a.include and have the additional classes on the targetted element
  172. [10:46:34] <tantek> I wouldn't assume that.
  173. [10:46:41] <tantek> The simplest implementation is pure replacement.
  174. [10:46:50] <tantek> Which is what I would lean towards in the spec
  175. [10:46:56] <McNulty> I do wonder what the common rel-include parsers are doing, I'll ask on the mailing list maybe.
  176. [10:47:25] <tantek> McNulty, yes, it would be interesting to see what the implementations ended up implementing.
  177. [10:48:49] <trovster> It is interesting, I was talking with drewinthehead about a-include pattern, and what takes preference if the same values exist
  178. [10:49:24] <drewinthehead> yes, hKit behaviour is currently sub-optimal in this area
  179. [10:49:25] <McNulty> trovster, what do you mean by same valies?
  180. [10:49:32] <McNulty> er, values
  181. [10:49:45] <trovster> Well, we just discussed it drewinthehead :)
  182. [10:50:43] <trovster> fn is required if it's just the org, so I had < class="fn org"> then included that into a specific PERSONs vcard. In drewinthehead's implementation (the a-include comes after the vcard itself) the fn is replaced with the .fn.org
  183. [11:04:50] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  184. [11:04:50] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  185. [11:09:58] <McNulty> trovster - because once the include is done, your card has multiple FNs?
  186. [11:10:11] <trovster> Yes. Correct.
  187. [11:10:36] <McNulty> and that's the parser's fault? ;-:
  188. [11:10:39] <McNulty> :-)
  189. [11:10:51] <trovster> Erm...
  190. [11:11:08] <trovster> ... imo, the including vcard should take preference.
  191. [11:11:50] <trovster> Which, if it isn't the case, then the fn/org assumption needs to be reviewed. As I would think this is a fairly common problem. Company as the name of the site, and personal pages including that information
  192. [11:12:12] <McNulty> What I mean is, what's the expected behaviour when encountering multiple FNs? Or other elements that are meant to be singular?
  193. [11:13:05] <McNulty> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing says: "Some properties, like "fn", should only appear once, and thus the parser stops looking for the property after it has found the first occurrence in document order. Additional occurrences are ignored."
  194. [11:13:10] <trovster> Exactly. I don't know what the expected behaviour is, I just mentioned what I would expect to happen.
  195. [11:13:27] <McNulty> Theres not really any inclusion-awareness, I guess
  196. [11:13:45] <trovster> Ok, so assuming the a-include is at the bottom of the vcard, the fn IN the main vcard should take preference.
  197. [11:13:49] <McNulty> So it *should* use the person's FN as long as it comes first...
  198. [11:13:50] <McNulty> yes, indeed
  199. [11:14:13] <McNulty> You're right though, it might be worth introducing some sort of exception for that in inclusion
  200. [11:14:34] <trovster> I wouldn't like to write the parsers!
  201. [11:15:18] <McNulty> Maybe it should look for the first non-included element, and only then search the included sections.
  202. [11:16:53] <McNulty> If your A[@class="include"] is after your FN and hKit is using the one from the include, it's probably not quite right
  203. [11:17:01] <trovster> Depends whether the assumption is ordering (therefore a-include COULD be first and override those within the specific vcard) or whether the included information is lower preference *always*
  204. [11:17:16] <McNulty> yeah
  205. [11:17:18] <trovster> McNulty: Yes, this is what drewinthehead and I assumed.
  206. [11:17:55] <McNulty> For now it's proably a good idea to put includes as late as possible, on the basis that parsers would treat it as simple replacement first, and *then* do the actual parsing (that's a big assumption on my part).
  207. [11:18:20] <drewinthehead> that's not how hKit works
  208. [11:18:59] <drewinthehead> hKit runs through and finds values, and puts them in the correct box
  209. [11:19:17] <drewinthehead> parsing the includes as they're discovered
  210. [11:19:47] <drewinthehead> there's a bug where I'm not checking if there's already something in the box when doing the includes, so the first-finds get overwritten
  211. [11:20:10] <drewinthehead> but i don't build a tree first and parse it second
  212. [11:20:15] <McNulty> ah, right
  213. [11:20:37] <McNulty> so it'll currently always take the last value?
  214. [11:21:12] <trovster> Yup, that's what it seems like.
  215. [11:26:35] <drewinthehead> yeah
  216. [11:26:51] <drewinthehead> i need to find time and push out a new release
  217. [11:27:09] <drewinthehead> anyone coming to WSG this week?
  218. [11:28:27] * trovster is thinking about it
  219. [11:28:38] * trovster swore he wouldn't after the last one
  220. [11:31:00] <mfbot> [[blog-description-format-brainstorming-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-description-format-brainstorming-fr * 1161083827 * (+7686)
  221. [11:31:41] <mfbot> [[Talk:xfolk-profile]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:xfolk-profile * 1161083827 * (+7686)
  222. [11:32:07] <mfbot> [[Talk:plant-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:plant-examples * 1161083827 * (+7686)
  223. [11:32:13] <mfbot> [[media-info-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-formats * 1161083889 * (+7686)
  224. [11:32:16] * drewinthehead is presenting :/
  225. [11:32:24] <mfbot> [[Talk:licensing-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:licensing-examples * 1161083827 * (+7686)
  226. [11:32:35] <mfbot> [[Talk:hreview-v0.2]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:hreview-v0.2 * 1161083889 * (+7686)
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  228. [11:33:02] <mfbot> [[Talk:hcard-parsing]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:hcard-parsing * 1161083889 * (+7686)
  229. [11:33:10] <McNulty> er... what's going on with the wiki?
  230. [11:33:32] <trovster> Last time it was 2 OK presentations and a too-loud (not learnt their lesson yet) after-party venue. A lot to travel for, really. But this is three on a topic I like... but then again, might be going over topics I know
  231. [11:33:33] <mfbot> [[Talk:htodo-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:htodo-examples * 1161083889 * (+7686)
  232. [11:33:44] <mfbot> [[Talk:events/www2006]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:events/www2006 * 1161083953 * (+7686)
  233. [11:34:00] <mfbot> [[Talk:rest/urls]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:rest/urls * 1161083889 * (+7686)
  234. [11:34:21] <mfbot> [[User:M]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:M * 1161083953 * (+7686)
  235. [11:35:02] <mfbot> [[Talk:controllable-collection-fomat]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:controllable-collection-fomat * 1161083953 * (+7686)
  236. [11:35:34] <drewinthehead> probably most of it will be, trovster
  237. [11:35:38] <mfbot> [[Talk:irc-meetups]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:irc-meetups * 1161083953 * (+7686)
  238. [11:35:43] <plaes> spam...
  239. [11:35:54] <drewinthehead> Norm is doing basics, then Jeremy more advanced stuff and implementations
  240. [11:36:07] <drewinthehead> then me waffling on about APIs
  241. [11:36:09] <mfbot> [[Talk:xhtml-compounds]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:xhtml-compounds * 1161083953 * (+7686)
  242. [11:36:53] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  243. [11:39:06] <trovster> So, I don't think I'll bother.
  244. [11:39:29] <drewinthehead> charmed, i'm sure ;)
  245. [11:39:30] <trovster> Hope it goes well, though
  246. [11:39:56] <drewinthehead> yeah, i really don't think it'll be worth all the travel, as you know the stuff being covered anyway
  247. [11:40:13] <drewinthehead> plus there's slides which i'm sure will be online
  248. [11:42:20] * tantek wakes up
  249. [11:42:45] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:1161083953" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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  268. [11:45:46] <tantek> all clear
  269. [11:45:51] <tantek> drewinthehead, does your include-pattern implementation keep existing classes when resolving rel-includes ?
  270. [11:46:22] <drewinthehead> keep existing classes?
  271. [11:46:34] <drewinthehead> i overwrite values at the moment
  272. [11:46:52] <tantek> ah, that's what I predicted
  273. [11:47:04] <tantek> McNulty - it appears you have your answer
  274. [11:47:10] <drewinthehead> it's because i'm a lame-ass :)
  275. [11:47:22] <McNulty> hm
  276. [11:47:39] <tantek> drewinthehead, how difficult would it be to *keep* existing classes on the include
  277. [11:47:43] <tantek> ?
  278. [11:48:05] <drewinthehead> not difficult at all .. i just need to check if the value exists before assigning.
  279. [11:48:28] <McNulty> drewinthehead - tantek's specfically talking about this http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006449.html
  280. [11:49:19] <drewinthehead> ah, gotcha
  281. [11:49:49] <drewinthehead> hmm .. i'd need to look carefully, but i suspect that additional classes on an include item are respected
  282. [11:49:54] <tantek> the use case that McNulty provides is an interesting one and worthy of consideration for the "keep existing classes" behavior
  283. [11:49:59] <drewinthehead> (by chance rather than forethought)
  284. [11:50:19] <McNulty> So your parser would find the 'author', then go 'oh, it's an include' and parse it?
  285. [11:54:53] <trovster> I think the classes should be added to the included, so you *don't* end up with <span class="author"><element class="vcard">
  286. [11:55:39] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) has joined #microformats
  287. [11:55:39] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  288. [11:55:42] <drewinthehead> right, McNulty
  289. [11:56:04] <drewinthehead> at least, that's what i remember... i'd need to check
  290. [11:57:16] <McNulty> Are there instances where a class has to be applied to a certain element type in a microformat?
  291. [11:57:24] <McNulty> Dates have to be ABBR sometimes, right?
  292. [11:58:24] <McNulty> Does <a class="include updated" href="#foo"></a> [...] <abbr title="2006-07-28" id="foo">28 Jun</abbr> look valid in a case like that?
  293. [12:01:21] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aav125.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  294. [12:01:54] <drewinthehead> hmm ... i'd need to check closely
  295. [12:02:11] <McNulty> Well the other question is *should* it be valid...
  296. [12:03:10] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  297. [12:03:10] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  299. [12:08:30] <tantek> McNulty, it is currently undecided, and we can decide that based upon whether the use cases are worth the implementation requirement
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  302. [12:18:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  303. [12:18:26] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  308. [12:59:12] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  316. [13:20:57] <McNulty> hi Whiskey_M
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  324. [13:41:08] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  325. [13:53:42] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9532 * ScottReynen * (+56) new list proposal -
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  333. [14:29:47] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  334. [14:29:47] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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  337. [14:37:59] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9533 * Tim White * (+16)
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  340. [14:58:15] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  341. [14:58:26] <Whiskey_M> hey Drew, how goes?
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  347. [15:13:32] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  354. [15:34:58] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  356. [15:35:37] <jibot> MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus and has a passion for fashion and hacks on webkit more than he should
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  360. [15:50:53] <cgriego> does the include-pattern require that a.include or object.include elements be empty?
  361. [15:51:47] <briansuda> not really, but none of that child data is used
  362. [15:52:04] <briansuda> you can have <a href="#me">my hcard!</a>
  363. [15:52:27] <briansuda> well, <a href="#me" class="include">my hcard</a>
  364. [15:52:39] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  365. [15:52:39] <cgriego> ah, thanks for the clarification briansuda
  366. [15:52:39] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  372. [16:31:27] <trovster> xoxo can't be on a table?
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  380. [16:59:51] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9534 * JoeAndrieu * (+36)
  381. [17:04:27] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9535 * Cgriego * (+86) microformats-process reminds me of parsing--processing--more so than even microformats-dev
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  386. [17:42:41] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  390. [18:06:46] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  391. [18:06:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  393. [18:38:01] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9536 * RyanKing * (+337) added not about new ML policy
  394. [18:38:42] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=9537 * RyanKing * (+63) adding wikipedia link for REST
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  399. [18:58:33] <SignpostMarv> Hi, anyone awake who can tell me how to handle extensions to XFN with regards to altering the profile ?
  400. [18:59:43] * scottjungling (n=scottjun@sjc.CSUChico.EDU) Quit (Client Quit)
  401. [19:02:37] <tantek> SignpostMarv - what do you want to add?
  402. [19:03:16] * SignpostMarv goes and checks lists
  403. [19:04:24] <SignpostMarv> rel="avatar", and "avatar-" prefixes to everything except friendship
  404. [19:04:34] <tantek> avatar is not a relationship between people though
  405. [19:04:40] <tantek> it is more a property
  406. [19:04:42] <tantek> like "logo"
  407. [19:04:44] <tantek> or "photo"
  408. [19:04:49] <tantek> which already exist in hCard
  409. [19:04:57] <SignpostMarv> It's the only thing we came up with that was a "nice" name to describe virtual persons
  410. [19:05:30] <tantek> mixing the "virtualness" of a person with relationships makes no sense - the two are orthogonal
  411. [19:05:40] <tantek> why not simply use hCard for virtual persons
  412. [19:05:46] <tantek> and add the category/tag "virtual"
  413. [19:05:47] <tantek> ?
  414. [19:07:07] <SignpostMarv> I'm wanting to use XFN to indicate relationships between the virtual persons, and a natural person cannot "meet" a virtual person, cannot live next a virtual person etc etc, but virtual persons can meet each other and so on inside a virtual world
  415. [19:07:27] <tantek> right, but the label for the relationship shouldn't be any different
  416. [19:07:45] <tantek> except in the case of "met"
  417. [19:07:53] <tantek> all other relationships work fine for virtualness
  418. [19:08:13] <SignpostMarv> Perhaps, but not in the context I'm working in
  419. [19:08:26] <tantek> what is the context you are working in?
  420. [19:08:29] <SignpostMarv> Second Life
  421. [19:08:43] <tantek> and if you want to expand or come up with an alternative to "met" - you need to come up with a definition of what does it mean to "meet" in your virtual space
  422. [19:08:54] <tantek> and how is it different from "contact"
  423. [19:09:06] <tantek> in otherwords, just having someone's IM lets you "meet" them virtually
  424. [19:09:12] <tantek> or email for that matter
  425. [19:09:29] <SignpostMarv> The meaning is the same, but as I understood it, the context of XFN was one of natural person to natural person
  426. [19:10:06] <tantek> where did you get the idea that it excludes virtual representations?
  427. [19:10:33] <SignpostMarv> say for instance I go meet Cory Doctorow's avatar in SL, my avatar has met his avatar, but my avatar has not met him, and I have not met his avatar
  428. [19:10:55] <SignpostMarv> Also, I was in the other night and I think the exclusion came up
  429. [19:11:23] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  430. [19:11:28] <SignpostMarv> there's also things like Residents having "partners"
  431. [19:12:04] <SignpostMarv> the virtual persons have the romantic XFN values, but not the natural persons controlling the virtual persons
  432. [19:12:42] <tantek> sure - so just have separate URLs for the virtual persons. problem solved.
  433. [19:12:53] <tantek> doesn't each secondlife profile have its own URL?
  434. [19:13:06] <tantek> the same relationship values work just fine
  435. [19:13:26] <SignpostMarv> SL doesn't have web-based profiles yet
  436. [19:13:27] <tantek> except, as I said, if you want to expand or add a new value for "met" - you have to define what that means
  437. [19:13:38] <tantek> XFN only works with people that URLs
  438. [19:13:42] <tantek> so punt for now
  439. [19:13:47] <tantek> until SL has URLs for profiles
  440. [19:13:54] <tantek> and make that feature request of them
  441. [19:13:58] <SignpostMarv> This project I'm working on does tho
  442. [19:14:07] <tantek> then use *those* URLs
  443. [19:14:27] <tantek> and when SL comes out with their URLs, you can use XFN rel="me" identity consolidation to connect them
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  446. [19:15:31] <SignpostMarv> Internally, SL profiles also have first-life sections (this data isn't reachable with the scripting language)
  447. [19:16:13] <SignpostMarv> There's also the issue of how to differentiate between one virtual person indicating another virtual person is an "alt", and a natural person indicating which virtual persons are theirs
  448. [19:16:38] <SignpostMarv> the spec doesn't seem to strike me as having that flexibility
  449. [19:17:25] * izo_ is now known as trizoteivskof
  450. [19:17:27] <tantek> "alt"s can be represented with rel="me" links between them
  451. [19:17:28] <SignpostMarv> There's also things like it appesr that rel="me" is exclusive of rel="offspring"
  452. [19:17:40] <tantek> you mean child?
  453. [19:17:43] <tantek> yes, you cannot be your own child
  454. [19:17:50] <SignpostMarv> yes, I mean child
  455. [19:18:04] <SignpostMarv> Torley Wong's avatar is his "daughter"
  456. [19:18:14] <SignpostMarv> (Torley Linden btw)
  457. [19:18:24] <SignpostMarv> so rel="me child" would be invalid
  458. [19:18:34] <SignpostMarv> but rel="avatar child" would not
  459. [19:18:51] <tantek> don't use rel="me" to collapse a person and a virtual person
  460. [19:19:05] <tantek> time for lunch
  461. [19:19:07] <tantek> bbiawhile
  462. [19:19:47] <tantek> anyway - the point is - I don't think there is sufficient justification for any new XFN values, with the exception of *maybe* virtual-met, but *only* if you define it (as requested above) distinctly from "contact"
  463. [19:19:53] <tantek> other than that
  464. [19:20:17] <tantek> you can indicate someone's "virtual person" equivalents using "url" fields in their hCard
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  466. [19:21:50] <SignpostMarv> People have all kinds of relationships between the virtual persons in SL, this project needs to indicate those relationships, and it made sense to use XFN, but XFN doesn't have quite what it needs to give an accurate portrayal of the relationships
  467. [19:22:06] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  468. [19:22:06] <jibot> evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
  469. [19:25:46] <SignpostMarv> From what I read, it seemed that if the projected needed to reflect different kinds of relationships, it should declare a different profile
  470. [19:29:38] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  471. [19:29:39] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  472. [19:32:21] * remi (n=remi@csf-127.cegep-ste-foy.qc.ca) Quit ()
  473. [19:32:27] <tantek> SignpostMarv - you could start by documenting what the 80/20 of SL relationships are using actual examples
  474. [19:33:16] <SignpostMarv> you mean more things like the Torley Wong -> Torley Linden example ?
  475. [19:36:25] * _psychic__ (n=_psychic@65.103.232.203) has joined #microformats
  476. [19:37:13] <SignpostMarv> most of the data regarding relationships between residents isn't accesible from the outside world, so that might be a bit of a headache
  477. [19:38:20] <SignpostMarv> How would you suggest going about the process of documenting the relationship types between the virtual and natural persons in SL ?
  478. [19:41:37] <SignpostMarv> (documentation has never been my strong suit)
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  482. [19:53:05] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9538 * Finch31 * (+245) New Examples -
  483. [19:54:11] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=9539 * Finch31 * (-5) New Examples -
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  487. [20:07:07] <signpostMarvMart> gah. Technical probs. got booted. Did I miss any responses ?
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  490. [20:09:03] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9540 * Discoleo * (+662) The Problem -
  491. [20:09:54] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9541 * Discoleo * (+40) The Problem -
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  494. [20:13:38] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  495. [20:13:38] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  508. [20:54:36] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=9542 * AndyMabbett * (-60) wiki markup & expand
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  517. [22:41:26] <SignpostMarv> can hResume be used to markup tenancy history for people who rent properties ?
  518. [22:43:43] <tantek> interesting thought
  519. [22:44:00] <tantek> or you could just use hCalendar
  520. [22:44:09] <tantek> each tenancy being an event
  521. [22:44:12] <tantek> with a location
  522. [22:44:17] <tantek> and a single attendee
  523. [22:44:32] <tantek> being the person who's history is being documented
  524. [22:44:41] <SignpostMarv> so use hCalendar to negate the need for rel="tenant" and rel="landlord" then ?
  525. [22:44:54] <tantek> right
  526. [22:45:12] <tantek> the landlord can be represented as an AGENT of the hCard for the location which is the building
  527. [22:45:50] <SignpostMarv> we've been discussing the virtual persons thing while I was unable to connect to IRC
  528. [22:46:13] <SignpostMarv> we basically chipped it down to just having "avatar" as an extra value in the identity category
  529. [22:48:07] <SignpostMarv> oddly enough, using clark kent > superman as an example :D
  530. [22:48:54] <SignpostMarv> superman is an avatar of clark kent, but clark kent is also a friend of superman
  531. [22:49:43] <SignpostMarv> and since rel="me friend" seems a bit odd, rel="avatar friend" works for that, as much as rel="avatar child" works for Torley Wong > Torley Linden, it seems to have stuck
  532. [22:52:09] <SignpostMarv> we also came to the conclusion that if a natural person "meets" a virtual person- say at a mixed reality event, or through the natural person's own avatar, it is not rel="met", but rel="contact" or rel="acquaintance"
  533. [22:53:01] <SignpostMarv> negating the need for any trippy metaverse attributes for meeting
  534. [22:53:26] <tantek> right
  535. [22:53:32] <tantek> i think that makes the most sense for now
  536. [22:53:39] <bewest> so a child meeting santa claus would be....
  537. [22:53:58] <SignpostMarv> although we're unsure if the activities of virtual persons should be synchronus with the natural person behind themy
  538. [22:54:01] <tantek> outside the 80/20 usecase
  539. [22:54:14] <tantek> they should be able to be relatively independent
  540. [22:54:41] <SignpostMarv> the confusing example:
  541. [22:55:15] <SignpostMarv> Person X goes to a mixed reality conference (IBM and Sun have had them in SL recently) as Resident A
  542. [22:55:32] <tantek> i'm not sure a mixed reality conference makes definitional sense
  543. [22:55:45] <SignpostMarv> Bigshot Y of the company holding the conference talks with Person X through Resident B
  544. [22:56:04] <tantek> demonic possession like
  545. [22:56:04] <SignpostMarv> is the relationship between the two residents different from the relationship between the two people
  546. [22:56:21] <SignpostMarv> (coincidentally, my avatar in SL is a demonically possesed albino :P)
  547. [22:56:38] <tantek> it is probably similar to symbiot relationship problems posed by ST:DSN and SG:1
  548. [22:56:55] <bewest> heh
  549. [22:57:10] <SignpostMarv> Trillian borked the SG:1 comment
  550. [22:57:25] <SignpostMarv> I see an image for :-D between ST and SN
  551. [22:58:18] <SignpostMarv> (so not sure what the reference is)
  552. [22:58:33] <SignpostMarv> it's a case of answering the question "Do Avatars live their own lives ?"
  553. [22:58:33] <tantek> ST : DSN
  554. [22:58:46] <SignpostMarv> DS9 ?
  555. [22:59:52] <SignpostMarv> ^If you consider an avatar's lives, activities etc to be seperate from the natural person controlling them, then the relationships between virtual persons and from virtual persons to natural persons would be different than the relationships between the natural persons controlling the virtual persons
  556. [23:00:37] <SignpostMarv> example:
  557. [23:01:05] <SignpostMarv> My avatar has met Torley Wong's avatar, so I a) know how to contact Torley Wong and Torley Linden
  558. [23:01:31] <SignpostMarv> b) SignpostMarv Martin has met Torley Linden AND knows how to contact Torley Linden
  559. [23:02:30] <SignpostMarv> c) my avatar has not met Torley Wong, but can contact Torley Wong via Torley Linden
  560. [23:03:03] <SignpostMarv> if that makes any sense
  561. [23:11:24] <SignpostMarv> putting that twisted logic aside for a moment, it seems that "avatar" can be used to define a person as being a virtual person, the lack of "avatar" implies that the person is a natural person, and that "avatar me" is used from a natural person to a virtual person OR a virtual person to a natural person to say "this is an avatar of me"
  562. [23:11:43] <SignpostMarv> which lets it cover things like virtual persons and alter-egos
  563. [23:12:30] <SignpostMarv> unless you want to specify "natural" to explictially define a person as being a natural person isntead of a virtual person
  564. [23:25:50] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  565. [23:26:32] * SignpostMarv waits patiently to see if Tantek's brain exploded
  566. [23:28:33] <tantek> interesting. the reason I brought up the symbiot example is that perhaps avatar can be generalized.
  567. [23:28:41] <tantek> why must avatars be virtual?
  568. [23:28:48] <tantek> or rather, *only* virtual?
  569. [23:29:00] <bewest> isn't this the alias thing?
  570. [23:29:01] <tantek> and then, another term may be appropriate
  571. [23:29:05] <tantek> not quite
  572. [23:29:18] <tantek> the avatar/host are different entities
  573. [23:29:36] <SignpostMarv> Marilyn Manson is an alias of Brian Warner
  574. [23:29:39] <tantek> which are "temporarily inhabited" by the "natural person" or "symbiot"
  575. [23:29:42] <SignpostMarv> not an avatar
  576. [23:30:23] <tantek> another example: John Cusack's character in "Being John Malkovich" is a "natural person" to the "avatar" of John Malkovich
  577. [23:30:29] <tantek> at least temporarily
  578. [23:31:38] <SignpostMarv> is there not a distinction between posessesd by someone and being an avatar ?
  579. [23:33:52] <SignpostMarv> if you possess someone, are they not a conduit for yourself, as opposed to an avatar of yourself ?
  580. [23:35:26] <SignpostMarv> an avatar tends to be the representation of a singular or collective entity
  581. [23:36:34] <tantek> I'm pretty sure these are all the same relationship (human->SLavatar, Trill-symbiot->Trill-humanoid, Gould->human, CraigSchwartz->JohnMalkovich)
  582. [23:36:59] <SignpostMarv> hmm
  583. [23:37:24] <SignpostMarv> An avatar tends to have a fixed controller, a host does not
  584. [23:37:29] <tantek> hosts are not necessarily merely conduits for their symbiots (though they are in the Gould case)
  585. [23:37:41] <tantek> in the Trill case it is a unified identity
  586. [23:37:44] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  587. [23:38:15] * pnhOldbook (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  588. [23:38:17] <tantek> fixed controller? not in the one example I have seen IRL at the Supernova Conference 2005 party
  589. [23:38:29] <tantek> where multiple party goers tried out the same avatar
  590. [23:38:47] <tantek> and hosts tend to have a fixed controller as well
  591. [23:38:52] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  592. [23:39:01] <tantek> in both the Trill and Gould case, the symbiot tends to outlast the host
  593. [23:40:43] <SignpostMarv> in those cases, the host is generally killed off or otherwise rendered uninhabitable
  594. [23:41:12] <SignpostMarv> in the case of avatars, the natural person can generally jump back and forth between accounts
  595. [23:41:18] <SignpostMarv> only losing control if they get banned
  596. [23:41:23] <SignpostMarv> or otherwise deleted
  597. [23:41:37] <tantek> goulds have jumped back and forth between multiple hosts
  598. [23:41:44] <SignpostMarv> a Goa'uld switches hosts out of neccesity
  599. [23:41:50] <SignpostMarv> a person switches avatars out of choice
  600. [23:42:07] <tantek> does not seem like a big enough difference to warrant a separate relationship
  601. [23:42:20] <tantek> the point is one of controller and controlled.
  602. [23:42:28] <tantek> master and puppet
  603. [23:43:05] <SignpostMarv> are you suggestining "puppet" as an alternative to "avatar" ?
  604. [23:43:21] <tantek> i'm suggesting the "puppet" example is the same as the SL "avatar" example
  605. [23:43:23] <tantek> just much older
  606. [23:43:34] <tantek> a person can control different puppets
  607. [23:43:42] <tantek> sometimes multiple at the same time, depending on dexterity
  608. [23:44:07] <tantek> an avatar seems to be just a particular type of puppet
  609. [23:44:13] <SignpostMarv> ah
  610. [23:44:15] <tantek> another example: pilot->mech
  611. [23:44:35] <KevinMarks> so how about Beck's puppets that copy him but are operated by others?
  612. [23:45:00] <SignpostMarv> Beck pays the puppeteers to do what they're told ?
  613. [23:45:02] <tantek> there are SL avatars that resemble well known figures but are operated by others
  614. [23:45:13] <SignpostMarv> Jimbo Wales for one :-P
  615. [23:45:16] <tantek> KevinMarks, the analogy still works
  616. [23:46:07] <SignpostMarv> Avatars created for promotional events are often controlled by other people, yes
  617. [23:46:22] <SignpostMarv> so is there a distinction between puppet and avatar ?
  618. [23:46:27] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  619. [23:46:45] <tantek> I don't think there is
  620. [23:46:48] <tantek> I think they are the same
  621. [23:46:49] <SignpostMarv> a puppet being something you control directly, an avatar being something you control indirectly ?
  622. [23:46:58] <tantek> how is it indirect?
  623. [23:47:01] <tantek> or direct?
  624. [23:47:04] <tantek> in either case
  625. [23:47:09] <tantek> there are strings or packets
  626. [23:47:27] <SignpostMarv> sitting at the keboard yourself and having someone else sit at the keyboard for you
  627. [23:47:36] <SignpostMarv> For example:
  628. [23:47:49] <SignpostMarv> When Duran Duran get around to doing their performance in SL
  629. [23:47:54] <tantek> controlling the puppet strings yourself, and having someone else hold the puppet strings for you
  630. [23:47:59] <tantek> same thing
  631. [23:48:02] <SignpostMarv> I don't think they're going to be doing their "thing" and controlling their avatars at the same time
  632. [23:48:44] <KevinMarks> have people fed motion-capture into SL?
  633. [23:49:05] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  634. [23:49:10] <SignpostMarv> yes, I believe people from the Electric Sheep Company have played with a fudged form of motion-capture
  635. [23:49:21] <SignpostMarv> SL itself doesn't natively support live motion capture
  636. [23:50:13] <SignpostMarv> Once the rag-doll physics stuff gets in there, the fudging should be much smoother :-D
  637. [23:51:33] <SignpostMarv> There have been RL sports events that were mirrored with avatars and prims in Second Life though
  638. [23:51:58] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  639. [23:51:58] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  640. [23:52:04] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  641. [23:53:35] <SignpostMarv> so "puppet", "puppet me", "puppet me child" etc make more historical sense than "avatar" etc
  642. [23:54:03] <SignpostMarv> would you use "puppeteer" to indicate the controller of a "puppet" ?
  643. [23:57:11] * danja (n=danja@host230-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  644. [23:57:40] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  645. [23:58:31] <tantek> that does seem to make sense
  646. [23:58:42] <SignpostMarv> hmm
  647. [23:58:49] <SignpostMarv> can puppets have puppets ?
  648. [23:59:04] <tantek> in Being John Malkovich they did
  649. [23:59:07] <tantek> or rather he did
  650. [23:59:11] <SignpostMarv> For example, if David Bowie, as Ziggy Stardust, went into a virtual world, would the avatar be a puppet of Ziggy Stardust, or David Bowie ?
  651. [23:59:24] <tantek> Ziggy Stardust is an alias not a puppet
  652. [23:59:41] <SignpostMarv> ah, good point :-D
  653. [23:59:50] <tantek> CraigSchwartz->JohnMalkovich->puppets

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