IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:14] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  2. [00:10:57] <pnhChris> yes.. logs... i'll have to read them all another time
  3. [00:12:35] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  4. [00:12:43] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has left #microformats
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  7. [00:35:35] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  9. [00:36:58] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  10. [00:37:08] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  11. [00:38:03] <KevinMarks> bbc quotes misinformed folk:
  12. [00:38:04] <KevinMarks> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6090418.stm
  13. [00:38:21] <KevinMarks> There's a technology called Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) that allows you to control the way a page is displayed, such as the colour of the text and background.
  14. [00:38:22] <KevinMarks> "However, that's quite a new technology, it's only been around a couple of years, and a lot of designers are still very wary of using it.
  15. [00:42:35] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  16. [00:42:35] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  17. [00:45:46] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  18. [00:51:17] <factoryjoe> omg
  19. [00:51:36] <factoryjoe> i can't believe that that's from today
  20. [00:57:31] <boneill> lol
  21. [00:57:41] <boneill> emailed the beeb about it ;)
  22. [00:58:15] <KevinMarks> then goes on to recommend Flash for accessibility...
  23. [00:58:20] <KevinMarks> *boggle*
  24. [00:59:24] <boneill> I've not emailed on an "official channel", but it's to a list that has people who actually know what they're talking about on it that work at the beeb
  25. [01:01:57] <factoryjoe> is mf.org down?
  26. [01:02:16] <boneill> yes, ^ topic
  27. [01:02:23] <factoryjoe> oh
  28. [01:02:24] <factoryjoe> indeed
  29. [01:02:36] <factoryjoe> missed that
  30. [01:02:38] <factoryjoe> what's the story?
  31. [01:04:02] <yakk> aparently people were wary of css and took mf.org down just to be safe
  32. [01:05:48] <factoryjoe> ;)
  33. [01:10:16] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  34. [01:13:24] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  35. [01:25:26] * kingryan changes topic to 'microformats.org down, filesystem problems, no ETA || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || about the channel: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || archives: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/'
  36. [01:27:26] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  37. [01:27:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  38. [01:27:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  39. [01:28:12] <factoryjoe> tantek: what happened to microformats.org?
  40. [01:28:22] <tantek> server problems
  41. [01:28:40] <factoryjoe> ah
  42. [01:28:45] <factoryjoe> ah
  43. [01:28:48] <factoryjoe> i c the topic
  44. [01:28:59] <factoryjoe> wow
  45. [01:29:06] <factoryjoe> does that mean it's like kaput? data loss?
  46. [01:29:17] * factoryjoe swoons
  47. [01:31:12] <factoryjoe> is anyone else's internet slow as hell?
  48. [01:31:14] <factoryjoe> i need a new internet
  49. [01:31:16] <factoryjoe> mine's b0rked
  50. [01:35:52] <tantek> we should be ok with the data
  51. [01:36:22] <tantek> but still checking on that...
  52. [01:36:39] <factoryjoe> bummer
  53. [01:42:43] <cbarrett> factoryjoe: switch to your backup internets.
  54. [01:42:55] <factoryjoe> oh yeah, good call
  55. [01:43:13] <cbarrett> did you hear he said he uses "the google" a lot
  56. [01:43:23] <cbarrett> "i type it in to the google"
  57. [01:43:41] <factoryjoe> that's teh google &trade;
  58. [01:43:55] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  59. [01:44:21] <cbarrett> o rite
  60. [01:44:27] <cbarrett> sry GOOG
  61. [01:47:30] <bewes1> yeah
  62. [01:47:38] <bewes1> "the google... heh... heh.."
  63. [01:48:07] <bewes1> does anyone besides me find that a frightening indicator of how different he is from the american public?
  64. [01:48:30] <factoryjoe> "he"? who's he?
  65. [01:48:58] <bewes1> bush... he's the one that said: "I use the google."
  66. [01:50:50] <factoryjoe> omg
  67. [01:50:55] <factoryjoe> maybe he was just in compliance
  68. [01:51:05] <bewes1> in compliance?
  69. [01:51:50] <factoryjoe> http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/10/26/google-can-go-shove-their-lexicographical-advice-up-their-ass/
  70. [01:52:03] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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  72. [02:05:42] <cbarrett> factoryjoe: man
  73. [02:05:53] <factoryjoe> mm?
  74. [02:05:53] <cbarrett> i don't know which post to be more offended by
  75. [02:06:38] <cbarrett> the hopless corporate shill tone in the original post on the google blog, or the grating and utterly self-involved tone in the one you linked to.
  76. [02:07:19] <factoryjoe> heh
  77. [02:08:41] <bewes1> heh
  78. [02:08:58] <bewes1> well I can't figure out why this person thought it's ok for yahoo to do it, but not for google
  79. [02:09:22] <factoryjoe> did yahoo do that?
  80. [02:09:39] <bewes1> (In fact I’ve just noticed that the title itself sets the tone of the post - a blatant mocking of the slogan of it’s nearest competitor.)
  81. [02:09:45] <bewes1> </unquote>
  82. [02:10:10] <bewes1> nearest competitor is a link to yahoo
  83. [02:10:29] <bewes1> so he lost me in the first paragraph
  84. [02:10:40] <bewes1> I'm not sure exactly what his point is... he hates google but loves their search?
  85. [02:14:32] <factoryjoe> heh
  86. [02:14:39] <factoryjoe> he's a bit of a contradiction, agreed
  87. [02:14:42] <factoryjoe> those brits, man
  88. [02:32:26] <tantek> still working on the server situation...
  89. [02:32:36] <tantek> hoping to have an update within an hour
  90. [02:32:45] * remi (i=remi@c66.203.212-11.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  91. [02:37:38] <bewes1> any chance of getting openID on our wiki?
  92. [02:37:49] <bewes1> :-D
  93. [02:40:21] <tantek> bewes1 - it's on the to-do list :)
  94. [02:44:36] <bewes1> what's involved?
  95. [02:44:45] <bewes1> is it a patch or is there some coding needed?
  96. [02:50:10] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  98. [02:59:51] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  99. [03:01:20] <factoryjoe> there's a mediawiki plugin
  100. [03:01:24] <factoryjoe> should work out of the box
  101. [03:34:12] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable128.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  102. [03:34:12] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  105. [04:36:04] <Frederic> morning
  106. [04:36:37] <bewes1> 'evening
  107. [04:38:35] <Frederic> 6:36 am here
  108. [04:51:19] * bewes1 (n=ben@209.237.236.227) has left #microformats
  109. [04:59:14] <KevinMarks> don't take dotban as a British archetype please
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  116. [05:46:55] <DanC> hmm... http://inews.webopedia.com/TERM/m/microformat.html "microformat is an open source data format standard "
  117. [05:47:32] <DanC> I hope they didn't get that from me. (I'm quoted in http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3640361 , whence comes that link)
  118. [05:47:33] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  119. [05:47:33] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  120. [05:47:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  127. [08:27:25] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  130. [08:43:18] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  137. [11:00:09] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  138. [11:00:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  139. [11:08:34] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  140. [11:40:34] <gsnedders> tantek: what time do you get up at!?
  141. [11:42:28] <tantek> hard to sleep when the server is down
  142. [11:58:58] * BenWard (n=BenWard@86.111.176.67) has joined #microformats
  143. [11:58:58] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk (+0000/+0100 GMT)
  144. [12:17:10] * kensanata (n=alex@pdpc/supporter/active/kensanata) has joined #microformats
  145. [12:17:10] <jibot> kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
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  149. [13:05:33] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  154. [14:14:11] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  161. [15:19:10] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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  172. [17:38:22] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  179. [19:23:40] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  185. [22:02:26] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  186. [22:02:26] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  187. [22:03:21] <bewest> does technorati have a service that can help me select tags? for instance, given 3 or 4 tags, can it tell me which one is more popular?
  188. [22:03:30] <bewest> eg should I use "lazyweb" or "lazy web"?
  189. [22:05:40] <bewest> is there a name for the class of data the so-far-successful microformats embody?
  190. [22:06:41] <bewest> eg "contacts, events, times, places, and relationships are in a class of data called ______"
  191. [22:19:08] <tantek> bewest, typically no space tags are better
  192. [22:19:33] <bewest> what about "semweb" vs "semanticweb"?
  193. [22:19:51] <bewest> and is SemWeb consistently treated the same as semweb?
  194. [22:19:59] <tantek> case insensitive yes
  195. [22:20:57] <bewest> tantek: what about dotNet vs .net?
  196. [22:21:20] <tantek> punctuation is also typically dropped
  197. [22:21:52] <tantek> a lot of this comes from the early de facto implementations, e.g. flickr.com
  198. [22:22:15] <bewest> hmm
  199. [22:22:18] <bewest> yeah, that's natural
  200. [22:22:52] <bewest> I also understand that the best tags will emerge... but I'm not convinced the current cycle of that emergence is the best one
  201. [22:23:11] <bewest> personally I don't like double and triple tagging every variant I can think of
  202. [22:23:23] <tantek> yes that can get a bit tedious i tend to agree
  203. [22:23:58] <bewest> it'd be great if there was some notification, even subtle, that a given tag is "winning" over a near variant
  204. [22:24:06] <tantek> i wonder when someone will make a "tagfight" services where you can give it a number of tags and it will tell you which are the more popular in which systems
  205. [22:24:10] <bewest> and then I could just drop the variant, feeling safe
  206. [22:24:33] <bewest> well...
  207. [22:24:41] <bewest> you're the blog people :-0
  208. [22:24:55] <bewest> maybe I'll get someone at work to do it
  209. [22:24:59] <bewest> show off our new product
  210. [22:25:07] <tantek> it would be a fun little mashup thing
  211. [22:25:11] <bewest> yeah
  212. [22:25:29] <bewest> while I have your attention, what about the class of data thing?
  213. [22:25:44] <tantek> would be interesting to see if different tags "won" in flickr vs. delicious vs. rel-tagged blog posts (as found by Technorati),
  214. [22:25:52] <tantek> class of data?
  215. [22:26:10] <bewest> (3:05:39 PM) bewest: is there a name for the class of data the so-far-successful microformats embody?
  216. [22:26:10] <bewest> (3:06:40 PM) bewest: eg "contacts, events, times, places, and relationships are in a class of data called ______"
  217. [22:27:13] <tantek> the most commonly published data types on the Web
  218. [22:27:22] <bewest> hmm
  219. [22:27:30] <bewest> yes, I'm trying to think about why
  220. [22:27:43] <tantek> the market chooses as the market chooses
  221. [22:27:48] * bewest is thinking about browsing and publishing behaviour from an evolutionary perpespective
  222. [22:28:04] <bewest> our mental toolkit is optimized for certain kinds of data
  223. [22:28:15] <bewest> and it is for that reason I believe that those are the most common types of data on the web
  224. [22:28:16] <tantek> or simply current human culture
  225. [22:28:31] <tantek> it is merely a distillation of a reflection
  226. [22:32:03] <bewest> reflection of what?
  227. [22:32:05] <bewest> which culture?
  228. [22:32:24] <tantek> the Web is a reflection of human culture
  229. [22:32:36] <bewest> right
  230. [22:33:25] <bewest> so these types of data are the most published types because it's a class of data rooted into the human condition...
  231. [22:33:29] <bewest> as opposed to other types of data
  232. [22:33:33] <bewest> like log files
  233. [22:33:35] <tantek> or in the current human condition
  234. [22:33:46] <bewest> the human condition changed?
  235. [22:33:49] <tantek> i don't know how timeless the set is
  236. [22:34:01] <tantek> human culture certainly has changed is changing
  237. [22:34:39] <tantek> and yes the human condition has changed significantly over history
  238. [22:35:03] * bewest senses near misses in communication
  239. [22:35:13] <tantek> witness that no one has yet even proposed microformats for hunting for food, or even farming - though plants comes close
  240. [22:35:25] <bewest> I'm pretty sure people have gossiped in more or less the same manner for a long long time
  241. [22:35:30] <tantek> both of which were a much more dominant part of the human condition in the past
  242. [22:35:46] <tantek> bewest - are you an anthropologist?
  243. [22:35:51] * bewest isn't
  244. [22:35:58] * bewest is just curious
  245. [22:36:08] <tantek> then i might recommend studying some to answer that question
  246. [22:36:41] <bewest> I do know that there are some things that have been more or less static... and it is those things I am interested in
  247. [22:36:51] <bewest> for example, we know that music has always existed in every culture
  248. [22:37:13] * tantek points again at the anthropology book for more precision/evidence.
  249. [22:37:39] <tantek> it's only human to seek out common patterns
  250. [22:37:58] <tantek> but that doesn't mean that all such patterns are universal, either across time or space
  251. [22:39:17] * danja (n=danja@host41-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  252. [22:39:53] <bewest> it's been observed that changes to make software more "accessible" make it easier to use not just for whatever handicap was targeted, but for the general populace as well
  253. [22:42:14] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  254. [22:42:30] <bewest> that indicates that there is a common shared experience, to some degree
  255. [22:43:20] <tantek> shared across the axis of accessibility within the same culture perhaps, but does not provide evidence for anything more
  256. [22:43:52] <bewest> not sure why you qualify to within a given culture
  257. [22:44:02] <bewest> there is other evidence, anyway
  258. [22:44:12] <tantek> but don't confuse them, that's why
  259. [22:44:23] <tantek> it's not scientific
  260. [22:44:29] <bewest> such as the common set of emotions shared across cultures
  261. [22:44:37] <bewest> a smile is always a smile... never a frown
  262. [22:44:58] * tantek again recommends more study on bewest's part
  263. [22:45:21] <tantek> those are Western-centric assumptions
  264. [22:45:54] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  265. [22:46:12] <bewest> I'm not making uneducated statements :-)
  266. [22:46:22] <bewest> but reading some books doesn't make one an expert either
  267. [22:46:46] <bewest> I've never heard any contest to the universal nature of music
  268. [22:46:52] <tantek> those statements bely lack of sufficient study of a variety of cultures
  269. [22:47:00] * kensanata (n=alex@pdpc/supporter/active/kensanata) Quit (Connection timed out)
  270. [22:47:03] <tantek> absence of negative evidence is not proof
  271. [22:47:23] * tantek wonders why logical people make that logical mistake so often.
  272. [22:47:26] <bewest> there have been studies on emotion, as well
  273. [22:47:42] <bewest> it's not proof, it's a concession
  274. [22:47:50] <bewest> I haven't seen every book in the world
  275. [22:48:00] <bewest> it's a concession that I may not know
  276. [22:48:03] * SignpostMarv (i=user@88-111-197-129.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  277. [22:48:13] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  278. [22:48:13] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  279. [22:48:16] <tantek> thus it is not scientific to assume universality - that's my point
  280. [22:48:22] <SignpostMarv> just checking if it's a known issue that the wiki is 404'd, or if it's just my connection
  281. [22:48:22] <tantek> if you don't know
  282. [22:48:36] <tantek> Marv, see /topic
  283. [22:49:12] <bewest> imagination many times precedes science
  284. [22:49:28] <bewest> science then confirms what it can
  285. [22:49:32] <bewest> rinse, repeat
  286. [22:49:40] <tantek> but scientists don't make proclamations of universality
  287. [22:49:43] <tantek> as if they are truth
  288. [22:49:49] <tantek> as some of your earlier statements did
  289. [22:49:59] <bewest> we have evidence that music has always existed
  290. [22:50:09] * remi (i=remi@c66.203.212-11.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  291. [22:50:16] <tantek> since which culture?
  292. [22:50:18] <bewest> I'd have to do some searching to point to precisely what that evidence is
  293. [22:50:25] <tantek> define "always"
  294. [22:51:06] <bewest> I will look it up now
  295. [22:51:53] <tantek> if the earliest evidence of music is not the earliest evidence of human culture or existence, then clearly the evidence shows that there may have been (likely was) a time in human existence before music
  296. [22:54:52] <bewest> that's a good point... however I didn't mean to speak scientifically; all of this is just brainstorming, and you raise some good points
  297. [22:55:31] <bewest> ekman has done much research on emotions and communicating them
  298. [22:55:33] <bewest> or ekkman
  299. [22:55:35] <bewest> whatever his name
  300. [22:55:42] <tantek> my meta-point is that you have to be careful about making absolutist statements that overgeneralize because they are almost always wrong, and thus you should question any of your uses of words like "always" and "universal" and "everybody"
  301. [22:55:52] <tantek> from a scientific viewpoint of course
  302. [22:56:08] <bewest> many times, I actually concede with phrases like "I'm pretty sure..."
  303. [22:56:13] <bewest> and other things like that
  304. [22:56:32] <bewest> however, I am often accused of this by other people as well
  305. [22:57:06] <tantek> like I said, it's a human tendency to overgeneralize patterns and thus as scientists we need to question such tendencies
  306. [22:57:31] <bewest> such a bother, at times
  307. [22:58:29] <bewest> anyway, I'm still curious as to what you would use to name the line between "log files" and "contacts" when they are both considered data
  308. [22:59:15] * bewest is a poor scientist
  309. [23:01:27] * tantek directs bewest at http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/nature/index.shtml
  310. [23:06:15] * bewest now reviews what he said
  311. [23:07:18] <tantek> the difference between "log files" and "contacts" is an interesting question to explore
  312. [23:07:31] <tantek> i think gets at the heart of the focus of microformats
  313. [23:07:49] <tantek> microformats are for representing human-centric data
  314. [23:08:12] <tantek> so for a log file of a conversation, like an IRC log, that makes sense
  315. [23:10:11] <tantek> but a web server log file, not really. most of a web server log file is effectively machine generated. humans do enter URLs and click links, and thus "browser history" could be considered human-centric data. but the rest is browsers retrieving other resources and robots.
  316. [23:10:31] <tantek> documents vs. data
  317. [23:10:45] <tantek> and this goes back to HTML
  318. [23:10:56] <tantek> which was designed for marking up human authored text
  319. [23:11:05] <tantek> text written by humans for humans
  320. [23:11:25] <bewest> yes, but I suspect there is more to it than that
  321. [23:11:38] <tantek> of course there is more to it - i am merely exploring the contrast
  322. [23:12:04] <tantek> drawing some rough dotted lines
  323. [23:12:05] <bewest> that's what I was doing until you hammered me for saying everybody and always ;-)
  324. [23:12:52] <SignpostMarv> since web server logs are meant for machines first, humans second, the logs could still be displayed using hCalender, but not stored as it, right ?
  325. [23:12:55] * tantek reinforces the philosophy of science
  326. [23:13:39] <tantek> Marv, another way to approach that would be to first explore a "browser history" microformat
  327. [23:13:46] <tantek> which would be humans-first
  328. [23:14:02] <tantek> and then see later if it could be reused to represent server-history (web server logs)
  329. [23:14:19] <SignpostMarv> hmm
  330. [23:14:35] <tantek> humans-first means exploring formats for humans first also
  331. [23:15:39] <bewest> I'm not sure the fact that it's text is salient
  332. [23:15:56] <bewest> I think it would retain it's interest if it was speech and not text
  333. [23:16:21] <tantek> bewest, as long as the content was produced by humans for humans yes the content type is orthogonal
  334. [23:16:28] <tantek> same for images
  335. [23:16:43] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  336. [23:16:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  337. [23:16:44] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  338. [23:16:54] <bewest> 'lo
  339. [23:17:20] * kingryan changes topic to 'microformats.org coming back up- blog,wiki up, mailinglists todo || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people || about the channel: http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || archives: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/'
  340. [23:17:22] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  341. [23:17:25] <kingryan> howdy
  342. [23:17:26] <SignpostMarv> browser history events have a start date, a location (the document accessed), some data on the event (HTTP Status codes, other headers etc etc). Would making a microformat for browser history not just be reinventing the hCalendar wheel ?
  343. [23:17:39] <tantek> everyone please give kingryan a hand for helping microformats.org come back up
  344. [23:17:42] <kingryan> we're getting microformats.org back up
  345. [23:18:00] <kingryan> blog and wiki should be working (but please back off for now), mailing lists are in progress
  346. [23:18:02] <tantek> Marv, a microformat for browser history might reuse hCalendar
  347. [23:18:14] * bewest hands out party hats and noise makers
  348. [23:18:16] <tantek> that would automatically come out of the process
  349. [23:18:19] * kingryan should be on the beach
  350. [23:18:28] <danbri> you can think of a great many kinds of data in terms of events ... it's very seductive
  351. [23:18:37] * SignpostMarv applauds kingryan, was needing wiki link for blog post comment
  352. [23:18:42] * bewest hands kingryan some flip flops and a frisbee
  353. [23:18:46] <tantek> danbri - the problem is that too many format-jockies confuse human events with computer events
  354. [23:18:59] <tantek> and make the mistaken assumption you can generalize them into one concept
  355. [23:19:14] <tantek> or that it would even be desirable to do so
  356. [23:19:16] <danbri> "anything that happens"
  357. [23:19:33] <bewest> yes, that's part of what I'm interested in
  358. [23:19:37] <danbri> calendar formats are interesting, 'cos they cover things that don't happen too
  359. [23:19:39] <tantek> as opposed to "things that happen that are planned/created by humans"
  360. [23:20:06] <bewest> tantek: hmm, aren't things that happen to humans equally interesting?
  361. [23:20:12] <danbri> hmm i'm not sure that's the way to carve the scoping cake... there are ical calendars of lunar cycles, etc
  362. [23:20:27] <bewest> danbri: right
  363. [23:20:28] <danbri> yup what bewest said
  364. [23:20:37] <bewest> environmental events
  365. [23:20:40] <SignpostMarv> anal-retentive marking up of computer events would be to mark up the computer session's boot time as class="bday" :-D
  366. [23:20:49] <danbri> but there are certainly more events visible to science and machines than are interesting to most people
  367. [23:21:24] <SignpostMarv> ^which on one hand makes sense, but on the other would be a very very odd thing to do
  368. [23:21:32] * bewest thinks the line has to do something with being experiential
  369. [23:22:28] <tantek> danbri - lunar cycles are human abstractions of physical phenomena
  370. [23:23:10] <tantek> and see archives - of course you can take a format designed for human authored data (e.g. ical) and apply it to non-human data
  371. [23:23:30] <tantek> that doesn't refute the focus for creating the formats - which is still humans first
  372. [23:24:08] * tantek wonders if things that happen to humans are more "experiences" than "events", which are more things that humans plan/create
  373. [23:25:07] <tantek> (archives reference is to designing a format for browser history (human centric) and then reusing it for web server log files (machine generated))
  374. [23:25:32] <bewest> are there any experiences that humans don't plan or create that are "interesting"?
  375. [23:25:40] <bewest> although I'm beginning to lose site of what interesting means
  376. [23:26:17] <tommorris> bewest: individually or collectively?
  377. [23:26:33] <bewest> collectively....
  378. [23:26:35] <bewest> now that more people are here
  379. [23:26:39] <bewest> maybe I'll restate the question
  380. [23:27:05] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Connection timed out)
  381. [23:27:09] <bewest> (3:05:39 PM) bewest: is there a name for the class of data the so-far-successful microformats embody?
  382. [23:27:09] <bewest> (3:06:40 PM) bewest: eg "contacts, events, times, places, and relationships are in a class of data called ______"
  383. [23:27:29] <tommorris> attention.
  384. [23:27:49] <bewest> tantek's answer was "the most commonly published data types on the Web" and I'm trying to think about why
  385. [23:28:07] <tommorris> The most commonly published data type on the web is simple - porn.
  386. [23:28:14] <tommorris> But nobody takes my suggestion of hPorn seriously.
  387. [23:28:22] <tantek> and my answer to why was - a distillation of a reflection of human culture
  388. [23:29:11] <tantek> tommorris - that may be adequately represented by a media-info microformat that included tagging so that you could tag your media accordingly
  389. [23:29:28] * tommorris is trying to write a recursive OPML parser with a serious headache, so comes out with some silly suggestions
  390. [23:30:14] <bewest> xslt is good at that
  391. [23:30:27] <tommorris> Unfortuantely not.
  392. [23:30:56] <tommorris> I'm using PHP 5 + SimpleXMLIterator
  393. [23:31:11] <tommorris> Although XInclude is a nice idea.
  394. [23:31:12] * SignpostMarv thinks hPorn would be little more than hReview
  395. [23:31:20] <bewest> I suggest using xslt to transform it to something else, and then parse that
  396. [23:31:32] <bewest> you can write a recusrive xslt parser in like 20 lines
  397. [23:32:18] <tommorris> More complicated than that - I've thought about XSLT - but what I'd need to do would take more XSLT than it does PHP.
  398. [23:32:27] <tommorris> (Output is all gonna be in XOXO)
  399. [23:32:39] <bewest> there's already an xslt for that
  400. [23:32:43] <tantek> nice tommorris
  401. [23:32:44] <bewest> by lm orchard i believe
  402. [23:33:28] <tommorris> Yeah - but I'm trying to turn Dave Winer's OPML parser in to a standards-compliant application that runs on a sane platform.
  403. [23:33:32] <bewest> evidently uche ogbuji did one too
  404. [23:56:20] <KevinMarks> there's a decent OPML pareser in Python

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