IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:01:11] <jibot>
Catspaw is Michelle Levesque
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- [02:01:16] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [02:51:46] <mfbot>
[[xoxo-pt-br]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-pt-br * Token * (+16384)
- [02:52:03] <_token>
xoxo portuguese
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- [03:11:41] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [03:53:16] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [05:37:46] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [06:03:30] <Frederic>
morning
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- [08:09:35] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [08:51:02] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [08:59:36] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:08:10] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [09:15:20] <kapowaz>
morning all.
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- [09:16:12] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [09:24:46] <McNulty>
morning kapowaz
- [09:30:49] <kapowaz>
do you read 37signals' SvN ?
- [09:32:05] <kapowaz>
massively off-topic here, but I just love that clip from Miami Vice.
- [09:44:07] <McNulty>
yeah
- [09:45:08] <McNulty>
Anyone care to look at this hAtom markup and tell me how I can sensibly get author vcards into the entries?
- [09:45:56] <McNulty>
http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com/test-blog.php
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- [09:48:40] <trovster>
include pattern?
- [09:48:58] <McNulty>
trovster - hatom2atom.xsl doesn't seem to do include pattern :-/
- [09:49:12] <McNulty>
I've actually got both types of include in there
- [09:49:33] <trovster>
Well, that's the parsers issue, not the microformats issue :S
- [09:49:47] <McNulty>
yeah but I want an atom feed :-)
- [09:50:05] <McNulty>
It has made me think more about writing an a.include parser
- [09:53:35] <McNulty>
problem is that hAtom has the fallback of checking the page for <address>
- [09:53:49] <McNulty>
but if I put that around the UL that contains the contact info, the page stops validating
- [09:59:01] <trovster>
Fallback for @class=author I thought
- [09:59:40] <trovster>
IMO you shouldn't bend rules to fit microformats in, and especially not to fix incomplete parsers at this early stage of their development
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- [10:00:25] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
- [10:01:22] <McNulty>
hAtom doesn't fall back to //@class="author", it falls back to //address@class="author"
- [10:02:43] <McNulty>
Maybe I should just not worry about it for now
- [10:02:48] <McNulty>
The feeds *do* work
- [10:02:50] <McNulty>
in most things
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- [10:03:01] <McNulty>
They just don't validate in Atom validators because the author field's empty
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- [10:03:23] <trovster>
Indeed, RSS aggregators are usually quite leanient, nowadays
- [10:03:39] <trovster>
Doesn't mean you shouldn't strive, but, somethings are just too much
- [10:03:46] <McNulty>
non-validation annoys me :-P
- [10:03:56] <McNulty>
I've been thinking about the include pattern a lot lately.
- [10:04:39] <McNulty>
There seems to not be much support, and different parsers treat it slightly differently
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- [10:12:13] <McNulty>
Got to stop closing my damned IRC windows
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- [10:33:50] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [11:38:12] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [11:41:14] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [11:44:37] <jibot>
Keri-Henare is Keri Henare, New Zealand web standards fan living in England [http://www.kerihenare.com/]
- [11:45:05] <Keri-Henare>
My website kills IE7 :(
- [11:45:12] <Keri-Henare>
like full blown crash
- [11:45:22] <Keri-Henare>
with nothing but XHTML & CSS
- [11:45:30] <Keri-Henare>
and i have no idea how
- [11:45:49] <Phae>
wow
- [11:46:09] <Phae>
try part debugging. Start commenting out large sections of the XHTML and CSS and see what makes it pop.
- [11:47:05] <Keri-Henare>
yeah i guess. problem is that i'm running it through Parallels with not much ram so it's slow :(
- [11:47:17] <Keri-Henare>
http://metpet.kerihenare.com/
- [11:47:28] <Phae>
I haven't put IE7 on my laptop yet.
- [11:48:24] <Keri-Henare>
all good
- [11:49:09] <Phae>
It's slow in my Ie6 though. Some of the images took a while to drop in.
- [11:49:29] <Phae>
I guess I ought to do my updates sometime this week
- [11:49:54] <Keri-Henare>
yeah i know, but i want to fix the ie7 issues first
- [11:50:18] <Phae>
I was just mentioning it :)
- [11:51:14] <Keri-Henare>
:)
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- [12:11:08] <Keri-Henare>
crashed on 2 pcs on IE7 but fine on a third
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- [13:59:34] <kapowaz>
Support Joe! http://joeclark.org/micro/
- [14:09:12] <mfbot>
[[User:MikkoBiomi]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:MikkoBiomi * MikkoBiomi * (+90) basic info
- [14:12:26] <McNulty>
kapowaz - wow give me some money too while you're at it
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- [14:22:18] <mfbot>
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=10113 * MikkoBiomi * (+398) suggestion for aggregates
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- [14:26:30] <kapowaz>
it's all in a good cause
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- [14:29:22] <kapowaz>
what is it with Brian's internet eh
- [14:29:27] <kapowaz>
superspamtastic
- [14:30:50] <Phae>
his wifi is playing up
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- [14:43:49] <kapowaz>
smells a bit wiffy
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- [15:10:10] <briansuda>
KevinMarks, are you around?
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- [15:36:44] <briansuda>
anyone around?
- [15:36:55] <briansuda>
i've been playing around with refactoring all the XSLT code
- [15:37:12] <briansuda>
it is slow going, but i think it will help churn out different output's faster
- [15:37:43] <briansuda>
i have created a new XSLT output for the SIMILE Javascript timeline
- [15:38:04] <briansuda>
now you can point it at any hCalendar page and it will slurp in the data into the timeline
- [15:40:39] * kapowaz claps
- [15:42:30] <briansuda>
http://adactio.com/extras/stream/ (source data)
- [15:42:51] <briansuda>
http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/ (pulls in the hCal and converts it for the Timeline)
- [15:43:23] <kapowaz>
heh
- [15:43:33] <kapowaz>
I was waiting for something to kick off around that stream thing Jeremy made
- [15:43:57] <kapowaz>
it actually had me thinking that there's a niche for a site that acts as a hub for all your online 'stuff'
- [15:44:18] <kapowaz>
like, your delicious, flickr, upcoming, blogs, last.fm etc.
- [15:44:23] <briansuda>
well, you can actually reference any hCal page (http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/?uri=http://www.webdirections.org/program/)
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- [15:46:14] <kapowaz>
what's the orange bar across the top all about?
- [15:46:17] <kapowaz>
it whizzes by
- [15:46:26] <kapowaz>
seemingly detached from everything around it.
- [15:47:13] <trovster>
I like that Stream which Jeremy did. Really simple.
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- [15:48:29] <briansuda>
not sure what all the options are for the Timeline code
- [15:48:50] <briansuda>
i think the orange bar is the HIGHLIGHTED area of interest - it obvisously didn
- [15:48:56] <briansuda>
didn't work as i had planned
- [15:49:03] <trovster>
kapowaz: Seen suprglu.com
- [15:49:13] <briansuda>
my main task was to convert hCal -> XML for this timeline
- [15:49:17] <kapowaz>
I have not.
- [15:49:20] * kapowaz looks
- [15:49:27] <kapowaz>
ah, see, somebody's already done it!
- [15:49:33] <kapowaz>
hmm
- [15:51:40] <McNulty>
google homepage is a similar idea too, I guess
- [15:51:42] <trovster>
http://trovster.suprglu.com/ eg
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- [15:53:16] <trovster>
Not really, coz it's not public.
- [15:53:22] <kapowaz>
aye
- [15:53:28] <kapowaz>
google's homepage is for you
- [15:53:44] <kapowaz>
whereas something like this would let your friends and family have a single point of reference for all your stuff
- [15:54:00] <Phae>
I have a website for that.
- [15:54:05] <trovster>
Jeremy shoul add hAtom. Then it's like an aggregated feed!
- [15:54:10] <McNulty>
ah, right
- [15:54:18] <kapowaz>
why is there no hRSS?
- [15:54:27] <kapowaz>
or hArse
- [15:54:28] <kapowaz>
or whatever
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- [15:57:05] <pnhChris>
why would you need both? (as opposed to transforming from hatom->rss)
- [15:57:56] <kapowaz>
a valid question.
- [15:58:09] <kapowaz>
I guess my real question is why hAtom came about first
- [15:58:29] <McNulty>
kapowaz - there are two RSSes
- [15:58:35] <kapowaz>
yes
- [15:58:36] <McNulty>
0.9x and 2.0
- [15:58:40] <McNulty>
and they're a bit inconsistent
- [15:58:40] <kapowaz>
mmhmm
- [15:58:48] <McNulty>
and Atom is generally better thought out ;-)
- [15:58:49] <kapowaz>
so pick the one that has the most usage
- [15:58:54] <kapowaz>
I have heard this said before
- [15:59:17] <kapowaz>
but isn't part of the microformats mandate to not take sides but just use what's already in popular usage anyway?
- [15:59:25] <McNulty>
RSS's design has been more evolutionary, while Atom's been designed with a bit more understanding of the actual usage of feeds
- [15:59:36] <McNulty>
I don't have any stats on RSS vs Atom
- [15:59:37] <kapowaz>
it's like every time I hear some postgresql fanboy going on about how crap mysql is
- [15:59:41] <kapowaz>
part of me dies
- [15:59:56] <kapowaz>
let's assume for a second
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- [16:00:05] <kapowaz>
that Atom is perfect
- [16:00:13] <kapowaz>
does that make it the ideal choice for embracing?
- [16:00:18] <McNulty>
No-one's saying Atom's perfect...
- [16:00:24] <kapowaz>
no, but let's assume it is
- [16:00:30] <McNulty>
One of the other issues I suppose is that Atom's fields are a superset of RSSes
- [16:00:40] <McNulty>
So there's more potential functionality
- [16:00:45] <kapowaz>
mmhmm
- [16:00:59] <kapowaz>
I just always got the impression that virtually nobody uses atom
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- [16:01:11] <kapowaz>
or those that do publish in RSS as well
- [16:01:16] <trovster>
Yeh, AFAIK, Atom is more 'feature complete' than RSS, so it's easier to downgrade from Atom to RSS
- [16:01:17] <McNulty>
Taht's true
- [16:01:41] <trovster>
'RSS 2.0 has the widest acceptance of any feed format. Much of that has to do with the defacto use of it by WordPress'
- [16:01:45] <KevinMarks>
there are 9 RSS's
- [16:01:47] <kapowaz>
aye.
- [16:02:16] <KevinMarks>
bollocks, trov
- [16:02:27] <KevinMarks>
blogger does atom
- [16:02:37] <KevinMarks>
they are many times bigger than wordpress
- [16:02:43] <trovster>
heh
- [16:02:47] <trovster>
sorry,
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- [16:02:52] <kapowaz>
do they do RSS *as well* ?
- [16:03:02] <McNulty>
"The RSS 2.0 specification is copyrighted by Harvard University and is frozen. No significant changes can be made (although the specification is under a Creative Commons licence) and it is intended that future work be done under a different name; Atom is one example of such work."
- [16:03:10] <KevinMarks>
they do if you go change the options
- [16:03:37] <KevinMarks>
I parse over a million feeds a day. Atom is better
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- [16:03:51] <KevinMarks>
RSS is hideously ambiguous
- [16:04:13] <kapowaz>
but regardless of that, is RSS the one that is used more?
- [16:04:15] <McNulty>
you can't tell if bits of RSS are plaintext or HTML without trying to guess based on content.
- [16:04:22] <KevinMarks>
<link> is either the permalink of the post or the first external link
- [16:04:44] <KevinMarks>
<description> is either the summary of the post or the full content
- [16:05:32] <kapowaz>
okay, so they're ambiguous, but surely a general rule of thumb has been decided upon?
- [16:05:39] <kapowaz>
if there wasn't RSS would never be even remotely usable
- [16:05:47] <McNulty>
kapowaz - does that matter? It's not significantly harder to write hAtom->RSS than it is hAtom->Atom
- [16:05:57] <kapowaz>
I suppose it doesn't matter.
- [16:05:57] <KevinMarks>
no, they are used ambiguously
- [16:06:24] <McNulty>
The fact RSS succeeded was due to lots of people expending lots of effort with their parsers to try and make sense of it ;-)
- [16:06:44] <kapowaz>
kind of a shame then, that people still use it.
- [16:07:17] <McNulty>
well, no harm in it. Atom is definitely better from a technical and semantic POV. It's understandable why RSS is how it is, if you look at how it developed.
- [16:08:04] <McNulty>
It grew up from a *very* simple XML format (Yahoo! was it?) and got embraced and extended by practically everyone
- [16:08:19] <kapowaz>
I thought it was Userland
- [16:08:21] <kapowaz>
Dave Winer?
- [16:08:27] <McNulty>
ah could well be
- [16:09:30] <McNulty>
timeline: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rssVersionHistory
- [16:09:52] <briansuda>
KevinMarks, http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/ in reference to http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007021.html
- [16:10:40] <KevinMarks>
blogspot, livejournal, aol, all make atom
- [16:10:55] <KevinMarks>
nice, brian
- [16:11:24] <briansuda>
it isn't JSON yet, that is the next step
- [16:12:08] <kapowaz>
AOL make Atom. Hurrah!
- [16:12:16] <kapowaz>
ever seen what the AOL browser does to images by default?
- [16:13:06] <kapowaz>
http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/aol.shtml
- [16:13:59] <McNulty>
kapowaz - how old is that?
- [16:14:07] <McNulty>
The instructions are for their Windows95 client
- [16:14:13] <McNulty>
:-)
- [16:14:25] <McNulty>
Man, 10 years ago AOL SUCKED ;-P
- [16:16:12] <kapowaz>
McNulty: actually, that's what their browser does *today*
- [16:16:16] <kapowaz>
unless you disable it
- [16:16:34] <kapowaz>
the reason I know is because a friend of mine (web developer) was showing his work to a client, at the client's home
- [16:16:41] <kapowaz>
and the client used AOL and made everything look like crap
- [16:16:49] <McNulty>
I imagine they might still do it on dial-up
- [16:16:58] <kapowaz>
no, it's enabled by default on broadband too
- [16:17:02] <kapowaz>
the guy was on AOL broadband
- [16:17:40] <McNulty>
I'll ask my AOL contacts if it's true ;-)
- [16:18:40] <McNulty>
I don't really doubt you, I just thought the age of that page was funny
- [16:21:29] <kapowaz>
the page is, yes
- [16:21:41] <kapowaz>
but this is what my friend discovered when he investigated it in depth
- [16:21:50] <kapowaz>
there is a shockingly small amount of discussion of it, which is odd
- [16:23:20] <McNulty>
I suspect no-one uses the AOL browser these days
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- [16:39:17] <kapowaz>
except AOL users who follow the instructions ?
- [16:39:26] <kapowaz>
do AOL not still recommend their own browser?
- [16:39:33] <kapowaz>
as in, for clueless newbies
- [16:39:56] <oqp>
I thought they recommended msie actually.
- [16:40:49] <kapowaz>
well afaik their browser *was* IE under the hood
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- [23:37:14] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
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- [23:59:42] * abscond (n=abscond@cpc2-seve9-0-0-cust316.popl.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on
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using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
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