IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:11] <jibot> Catspaw is Michelle Levesque
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  11. [02:01:16] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  17. [02:51:46] <mfbot> [[xoxo-pt-br]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-pt-br * Token * (+16384)
  18. [02:52:03] <_token> xoxo portuguese
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  21. [03:11:41] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  28. [03:53:16] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  35. [05:37:46] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  40. [06:03:30] <Frederic> morning
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  49. [08:09:35] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  56. [08:51:02] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  60. [08:59:36] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  61. [09:02:37] * boneill (i=SheepCow@house.ninjagrapefruit.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  62. [09:08:09] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  63. [09:08:10] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  64. [09:15:20] <kapowaz> morning all.
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  66. [09:16:12] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  67. [09:24:46] <McNulty> morning kapowaz
  68. [09:30:49] <kapowaz> do you read 37signals' SvN ?
  69. [09:32:05] <kapowaz> massively off-topic here, but I just love that clip from Miami Vice.
  70. [09:44:07] <McNulty> yeah
  71. [09:45:08] <McNulty> Anyone care to look at this hAtom markup and tell me how I can sensibly get author vcards into the entries?
  72. [09:45:56] <McNulty> http://test.ciaranmcnulty.com/test-blog.php
  73. [09:48:07] * danja (n=danja@host237-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  74. [09:48:40] <trovster> include pattern?
  75. [09:48:58] <McNulty> trovster - hatom2atom.xsl doesn't seem to do include pattern :-/
  76. [09:49:12] <McNulty> I've actually got both types of include in there
  77. [09:49:33] <trovster> Well, that's the parsers issue, not the microformats issue :S
  78. [09:49:47] <McNulty> yeah but I want an atom feed :-)
  79. [09:50:05] <McNulty> It has made me think more about writing an a.include parser
  80. [09:53:35] <McNulty> problem is that hAtom has the fallback of checking the page for <address>
  81. [09:53:49] <McNulty> but if I put that around the UL that contains the contact info, the page stops validating
  82. [09:59:01] <trovster> Fallback for @class=author I thought
  83. [09:59:40] <trovster> IMO you shouldn't bend rules to fit microformats in, and especially not to fix incomplete parsers at this early stage of their development
  84. [10:00:25] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  85. [10:00:25] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  86. [10:01:22] <McNulty> hAtom doesn't fall back to //@class="author", it falls back to //address@class="author"
  87. [10:02:43] <McNulty> Maybe I should just not worry about it for now
  88. [10:02:48] <McNulty> The feeds *do* work
  89. [10:02:50] <McNulty> in most things
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  91. [10:03:01] <McNulty> They just don't validate in Atom validators because the author field's empty
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  93. [10:03:23] <trovster> Indeed, RSS aggregators are usually quite leanient, nowadays
  94. [10:03:39] <trovster> Doesn't mean you shouldn't strive, but, somethings are just too much
  95. [10:03:46] <McNulty> non-validation annoys me :-P
  96. [10:03:56] <McNulty> I've been thinking about the include pattern a lot lately.
  97. [10:04:39] <McNulty> There seems to not be much support, and different parsers treat it slightly differently
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  101. [10:12:13] <McNulty> Got to stop closing my damned IRC windows
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  103. [10:33:50] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  104. [10:33:50] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  111. [11:38:12] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  112. [11:41:14] * Phae (n=phae@80-41-164-249.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #microformats
  113. [11:41:14] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  116. [11:44:37] * Keri-Henare (n=keri-hen@202.89.156.154) has joined #microformats
  117. [11:44:37] <jibot> Keri-Henare is Keri Henare, New Zealand web standards fan living in England [http://www.kerihenare.com/]
  118. [11:45:05] <Keri-Henare> My website kills IE7 :(
  119. [11:45:12] <Keri-Henare> like full blown crash
  120. [11:45:22] <Keri-Henare> with nothing but XHTML & CSS
  121. [11:45:30] <Keri-Henare> and i have no idea how
  122. [11:45:49] <Phae> wow
  123. [11:46:09] <Phae> try part debugging. Start commenting out large sections of the XHTML and CSS and see what makes it pop.
  124. [11:47:05] <Keri-Henare> yeah i guess. problem is that i'm running it through Parallels with not much ram so it's slow :(
  125. [11:47:17] <Keri-Henare> http://metpet.kerihenare.com/
  126. [11:47:28] <Phae> I haven't put IE7 on my laptop yet.
  127. [11:48:24] <Keri-Henare> all good
  128. [11:49:09] <Phae> It's slow in my Ie6 though. Some of the images took a while to drop in.
  129. [11:49:29] <Phae> I guess I ought to do my updates sometime this week
  130. [11:49:54] <Keri-Henare> yeah i know, but i want to fix the ie7 issues first
  131. [11:50:18] <Phae> I was just mentioning it :)
  132. [11:51:14] <Keri-Henare> :)
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  137. [12:11:08] <Keri-Henare> crashed on 2 pcs on IE7 but fine on a third
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  176. [13:59:34] <kapowaz> Support Joe! http://joeclark.org/micro/
  177. [14:09:12] <mfbot> [[User:MikkoBiomi]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:MikkoBiomi * MikkoBiomi * (+90) basic info
  178. [14:12:26] <McNulty> kapowaz - wow give me some money too while you're at it
  179. [14:19:01] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
  180. [14:22:18] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=10113 * MikkoBiomi * (+398) suggestion for aggregates
  181. [14:23:04] * abscond (n=abscond@cpc2-seve9-0-0-cust316.popl.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
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  185. [14:26:30] <kapowaz> it's all in a good cause
  186. [14:28:54] * briansuda (n=briansud@thjodarbokhlada.hotspot.hive.is) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  187. [14:29:22] <kapowaz> what is it with Brian's internet eh
  188. [14:29:27] <kapowaz> superspamtastic
  189. [14:30:50] <Phae> his wifi is playing up
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  193. [14:43:49] <kapowaz> smells a bit wiffy
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  200. [15:10:10] <briansuda> KevinMarks, are you around?
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  203. [15:26:09] * pnhChris looks around for some bots
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  205. [15:36:44] <briansuda> anyone around?
  206. [15:36:55] <briansuda> i've been playing around with refactoring all the XSLT code
  207. [15:37:12] <briansuda> it is slow going, but i think it will help churn out different output's faster
  208. [15:37:43] <briansuda> i have created a new XSLT output for the SIMILE Javascript timeline
  209. [15:38:04] <briansuda> now you can point it at any hCalendar page and it will slurp in the data into the timeline
  210. [15:40:39] * kapowaz claps
  211. [15:42:30] <briansuda> http://adactio.com/extras/stream/ (source data)
  212. [15:42:51] <briansuda> http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/ (pulls in the hCal and converts it for the Timeline)
  213. [15:43:23] <kapowaz> heh
  214. [15:43:33] <kapowaz> I was waiting for something to kick off around that stream thing Jeremy made
  215. [15:43:57] <kapowaz> it actually had me thinking that there's a niche for a site that acts as a hub for all your online 'stuff'
  216. [15:44:18] <kapowaz> like, your delicious, flickr, upcoming, blogs, last.fm etc.
  217. [15:44:23] <briansuda> well, you can actually reference any hCal page (http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/?uri=http://www.webdirections.org/program/)
  218. [15:44:46] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  219. [15:46:14] <kapowaz> what's the orange bar across the top all about?
  220. [15:46:17] <kapowaz> it whizzes by
  221. [15:46:26] <kapowaz> seemingly detached from everything around it.
  222. [15:47:13] <trovster> I like that Stream which Jeremy did. Really simple.
  223. [15:48:17] * deadCow is now known as boneill
  224. [15:48:29] <briansuda> not sure what all the options are for the Timeline code
  225. [15:48:50] <briansuda> i think the orange bar is the HIGHLIGHTED area of interest - it obvisously didn
  226. [15:48:56] <briansuda> didn't work as i had planned
  227. [15:49:03] <trovster> kapowaz: Seen suprglu.com
  228. [15:49:13] <briansuda> my main task was to convert hCal -> XML for this timeline
  229. [15:49:17] <kapowaz> I have not.
  230. [15:49:20] * kapowaz looks
  231. [15:49:27] <kapowaz> ah, see, somebody's already done it!
  232. [15:49:33] <kapowaz> hmm
  233. [15:51:40] <McNulty> google homepage is a similar idea too, I guess
  234. [15:51:42] <trovster> http://trovster.suprglu.com/ eg
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  236. [15:53:16] <trovster> Not really, coz it's not public.
  237. [15:53:22] <kapowaz> aye
  238. [15:53:28] <kapowaz> google's homepage is for you
  239. [15:53:44] <kapowaz> whereas something like this would let your friends and family have a single point of reference for all your stuff
  240. [15:54:00] <Phae> I have a website for that.
  241. [15:54:05] <trovster> Jeremy shoul add hAtom. Then it's like an aggregated feed!
  242. [15:54:10] <McNulty> ah, right
  243. [15:54:18] <kapowaz> why is there no hRSS?
  244. [15:54:27] <kapowaz> or hArse
  245. [15:54:28] <kapowaz> or whatever
  246. [15:55:09] * _psychic__ (n=_psychic@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  247. [15:57:05] <pnhChris> why would you need both? (as opposed to transforming from hatom->rss)
  248. [15:57:56] <kapowaz> a valid question.
  249. [15:58:09] <kapowaz> I guess my real question is why hAtom came about first
  250. [15:58:29] <McNulty> kapowaz - there are two RSSes
  251. [15:58:35] <kapowaz> yes
  252. [15:58:36] <McNulty> 0.9x and 2.0
  253. [15:58:40] <McNulty> and they're a bit inconsistent
  254. [15:58:40] <kapowaz> mmhmm
  255. [15:58:48] <McNulty> and Atom is generally better thought out ;-)
  256. [15:58:49] <kapowaz> so pick the one that has the most usage
  257. [15:58:54] <kapowaz> I have heard this said before
  258. [15:59:17] <kapowaz> but isn't part of the microformats mandate to not take sides but just use what's already in popular usage anyway?
  259. [15:59:25] <McNulty> RSS's design has been more evolutionary, while Atom's been designed with a bit more understanding of the actual usage of feeds
  260. [15:59:36] <McNulty> I don't have any stats on RSS vs Atom
  261. [15:59:37] <kapowaz> it's like every time I hear some postgresql fanboy going on about how crap mysql is
  262. [15:59:41] <kapowaz> part of me dies
  263. [15:59:56] <kapowaz> let's assume for a second
  264. [16:00:01] * _psychic_ (n=_psychic@65.103.232.203) Quit (Connection timed out)
  265. [16:00:05] <kapowaz> that Atom is perfect
  266. [16:00:13] <kapowaz> does that make it the ideal choice for embracing?
  267. [16:00:18] <McNulty> No-one's saying Atom's perfect...
  268. [16:00:24] <kapowaz> no, but let's assume it is
  269. [16:00:30] <McNulty> One of the other issues I suppose is that Atom's fields are a superset of RSSes
  270. [16:00:40] <McNulty> So there's more potential functionality
  271. [16:00:45] <kapowaz> mmhmm
  272. [16:00:59] <kapowaz> I just always got the impression that virtually nobody uses atom
  273. [16:01:10] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  274. [16:01:11] <kapowaz> or those that do publish in RSS as well
  275. [16:01:16] <trovster> Yeh, AFAIK, Atom is more 'feature complete' than RSS, so it's easier to downgrade from Atom to RSS
  276. [16:01:17] <McNulty> Taht's true
  277. [16:01:41] <trovster> 'RSS 2.0 has the widest acceptance of any feed format. Much of that has to do with the defacto use of it by WordPress'
  278. [16:01:45] <KevinMarks> there are 9 RSS's
  279. [16:01:47] <kapowaz> aye.
  280. [16:02:16] <KevinMarks> bollocks, trov
  281. [16:02:27] <KevinMarks> blogger does atom
  282. [16:02:37] <KevinMarks> they are many times bigger than wordpress
  283. [16:02:43] <trovster> heh
  284. [16:02:47] <trovster> sorry,
  285. [16:02:47] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has left #microformats
  286. [16:02:52] <kapowaz> do they do RSS *as well* ?
  287. [16:03:02] <McNulty> "The RSS 2.0 specification is copyrighted by Harvard University and is frozen. No significant changes can be made (although the specification is under a Creative Commons licence) and it is intended that future work be done under a different name; Atom is one example of such work."
  288. [16:03:10] <KevinMarks> they do if you go change the options
  289. [16:03:37] <KevinMarks> I parse over a million feeds a day. Atom is better
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  291. [16:03:51] <KevinMarks> RSS is hideously ambiguous
  292. [16:04:13] <kapowaz> but regardless of that, is RSS the one that is used more?
  293. [16:04:15] <McNulty> you can't tell if bits of RSS are plaintext or HTML without trying to guess based on content.
  294. [16:04:22] <KevinMarks> <link> is either the permalink of the post or the first external link
  295. [16:04:44] <KevinMarks> <description> is either the summary of the post or the full content
  296. [16:05:32] <kapowaz> okay, so they're ambiguous, but surely a general rule of thumb has been decided upon?
  297. [16:05:39] <kapowaz> if there wasn't RSS would never be even remotely usable
  298. [16:05:47] <McNulty> kapowaz - does that matter? It's not significantly harder to write hAtom->RSS than it is hAtom->Atom
  299. [16:05:57] <kapowaz> I suppose it doesn't matter.
  300. [16:05:57] <KevinMarks> no, they are used ambiguously
  301. [16:06:24] <McNulty> The fact RSS succeeded was due to lots of people expending lots of effort with their parsers to try and make sense of it ;-)
  302. [16:06:44] <kapowaz> kind of a shame then, that people still use it.
  303. [16:07:17] <McNulty> well, no harm in it. Atom is definitely better from a technical and semantic POV. It's understandable why RSS is how it is, if you look at how it developed.
  304. [16:08:04] <McNulty> It grew up from a *very* simple XML format (Yahoo! was it?) and got embraced and extended by practically everyone
  305. [16:08:19] <kapowaz> I thought it was Userland
  306. [16:08:21] <kapowaz> Dave Winer?
  307. [16:08:27] <McNulty> ah could well be
  308. [16:09:30] <McNulty> timeline: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rssVersionHistory
  309. [16:09:52] <briansuda> KevinMarks, http://suda.co.uk/sandbox/timeline/ in reference to http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007021.html
  310. [16:10:40] <KevinMarks> blogspot, livejournal, aol, all make atom
  311. [16:10:55] <KevinMarks> nice, brian
  312. [16:11:24] <briansuda> it isn't JSON yet, that is the next step
  313. [16:12:08] <kapowaz> AOL make Atom. Hurrah!
  314. [16:12:16] <kapowaz> ever seen what the AOL browser does to images by default?
  315. [16:13:06] <kapowaz> http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/aol.shtml
  316. [16:13:59] <McNulty> kapowaz - how old is that?
  317. [16:14:07] <McNulty> The instructions are for their Windows95 client
  318. [16:14:13] <McNulty> :-)
  319. [16:14:25] <McNulty> Man, 10 years ago AOL SUCKED ;-P
  320. [16:16:12] <kapowaz> McNulty: actually, that's what their browser does *today*
  321. [16:16:16] <kapowaz> unless you disable it
  322. [16:16:34] <kapowaz> the reason I know is because a friend of mine (web developer) was showing his work to a client, at the client's home
  323. [16:16:41] <kapowaz> and the client used AOL and made everything look like crap
  324. [16:16:49] <McNulty> I imagine they might still do it on dial-up
  325. [16:16:58] <kapowaz> no, it's enabled by default on broadband too
  326. [16:17:02] <kapowaz> the guy was on AOL broadband
  327. [16:17:40] <McNulty> I'll ask my AOL contacts if it's true ;-)
  328. [16:18:40] <McNulty> I don't really doubt you, I just thought the age of that page was funny
  329. [16:21:29] <kapowaz> the page is, yes
  330. [16:21:41] <kapowaz> but this is what my friend discovered when he investigated it in depth
  331. [16:21:50] <kapowaz> there is a shockingly small amount of discussion of it, which is odd
  332. [16:23:20] <McNulty> I suspect no-one uses the AOL browser these days
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  336. [16:39:17] <kapowaz> except AOL users who follow the instructions ?
  337. [16:39:26] <kapowaz> do AOL not still recommend their own browser?
  338. [16:39:33] <kapowaz> as in, for clueless newbies
  339. [16:39:56] <oqp> I thought they recommended msie actually.
  340. [16:40:49] <kapowaz> well afaik their browser *was* IE under the hood
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  431. [21:55:37] * danja (n=danja@host69-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  432. [21:58:42] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  433. [22:01:40] * lhalff (n=lhalff@adsl-67-113-14-165.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  434. [22:05:36] * vmarks (n=vmarks@69-46-168-129.ip.tor.radiant.net) has joined #microformats
  435. [22:13:17] * Advocation (n=advocati@82.152.175.214) Quit (Client Quit)
  436. [22:18:34] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  437. [22:24:50] * Ronnos (n=Ronnos@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]")
  438. [22:25:34] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  439. [22:30:52] * badandmad (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) Quit ()
  440. [22:42:57] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-98-127.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  441. [22:43:38] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-98-127.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  442. [23:20:28] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  443. [23:25:22] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-98-127.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  444. [23:29:13] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #Microformats
  445. [23:35:47] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  446. [23:37:14] * cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-64-183-177-226.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  447. [23:40:47] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  448. [23:49:34] * popov (n=ppopov@media.rc.edu) has joined #microformats
  449. [23:53:02] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  450. [23:59:42] * abscond (n=abscond@cpc2-seve9-0-0-cust316.popl.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.