IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-11-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:15:14] <tantek> evanpro, actually I *do* mean making them work together
  2. [00:15:28] <evanpro> oh!
  3. [00:15:34] <tantek> OpenID and microformats share some common assumptions
  4. [00:15:53] <tantek> like, the fact that a person has one (or more) url(s) that represent their identity
  5. [00:16:13] <evanpro> mmm-hmmm
  6. [00:16:41] <tantek> while OpenID let's you prove that you the user "are" that URL, microformats, such as hCard and XFN, allow you to put details about yourself *at* that URL
  7. [00:16:52] <tantek> so there is a very natural synergy
  8. [00:17:03] <evanpro> so microformats might be a nice way to share so-called profile information
  9. [00:17:07] <tantek> not to mention what you could do with OpenID + XFN identity consolidation
  10. [00:17:10] <tantek> precisely
  11. [00:17:17] <evanpro> interesting
  12. [00:17:33] <tantek> it is in fact, perhaps the *simplest* way to share profile information with OpenID
  13. [00:17:44] <evanpro> There are some pretty complicated ways, too
  14. [00:17:50] <tantek> using the most natural, *user visible/viewable* URL as your OpenID URL
  15. [00:17:59] <evanpro> Right
  16. [00:18:00] <pnhChris> i haven't looked in a while, but is claimid using xfn (or any other link format for that matter)
  17. [00:18:11] <tantek> there are perhaps infinitely more complicated ways yes, but of course, there is not much incentive to even bother discussing them
  18. [00:18:25] <tantek> claimid uses XFN identity consolidation I believe
  19. [00:18:31] <tantek> as does technorati
  20. [00:18:50] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=10405 * QMay * (+144) Examples in the wild -
  21. [00:18:53] <tantek> so when you claim your blog, the link to your blog from your Technorati profile page has rel="me" on it
  22. [00:19:06] <tantek> without you have to do any markup coding yourself
  23. [00:19:13] <pnhChris> tantek .. something simialr tothis this? http://claimid.com/chriscasciano
  24. [00:19:29] <evanpro> The main profile exchange right now with OpenID is Simple Registration Extension (sreg)
  25. [00:19:34] <evanpro> http://www.openidenabled.com/openid/simple-registration-extension <-- this thing
  26. [00:19:38] <pnhChris> (warning, i haven't looked at the code other then to see xfolk there)
  27. [00:20:02] <evanpro> But it's pretty limited and it doesn't have the link orientation that XFN does
  28. [00:20:26] <pnhChris> it seems like a start.. though i'm sure something more formal would be needed to really tie it all into a profile and be leveraged on different sites
  29. [00:20:50] <tantek> pnhChris, it appears ClaimID does not use XFN rel="me" there
  30. [00:22:02] <tantek> essentially all the links with class="taggedlink" should also have rel="me" on them
  31. [00:23:50] <tantek> evanpro, note the mention of hCard on that page
  32. [00:24:54] <tantek> sreg appears to define its own schema and vocabulary for "profile information", e.g. nickname, email, fullname, dob, gender, postcode, country, language, timezone
  33. [00:25:02] <tantek> this is, in short, unnecessary reinvention
  34. [00:25:11] <tantek> both reinvention of the schema (what set of fields)
  35. [00:25:20] <tantek> and reinvention of the names (labels for the fields)
  36. [00:25:36] <tantek> the simple answer is, don't reinvent, reuse
  37. [00:25:51] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=10406 * QMay * (+5) Examples in the wild -
  38. [00:25:53] <tantek> i.e. reuse the schema *and* names from hCard/vCard
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  40. [00:26:26] <tantek> only "nickname" and "email" are the same
  41. [00:26:28] <tantek> currently
  42. [00:26:34] <tantek> dob should be bday
  43. [00:27:12] <tantek> etc. see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List for more
  44. [00:28:22] <tantek> i'm more and more convinced BTW that "gender" is not deserving of its own field, rather, it should simply be a microtaxonomy of tags that are used on the hCard
  45. [00:28:27] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=10407 * QMay * (+147) Examples in the wild -
  46. [00:28:58] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=10408 * QMay * (-1) Examples in the wild -
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  50. [01:10:09] <tantek> anyone else here working on OpenID as well?
  51. [01:10:26] <tantek> I'm thinking of creating a wiki page to track synergy points
  52. [01:10:30] <tantek> such as the above
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  55. [01:40:10] <KevinMarks> this new viewpoint on gender came from the squid party this weekend?
  56. [01:40:12] <KevinMarks> ;)
  57. [01:53:21] <tantek> KevinMarks, although outside of the 80/20, I recommend you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity to familiarize yourself with many of the issues
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  82. [08:54:31] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=10409 * AndyMabbett * (+121) reply
  83. [08:57:17] <mfbot> [[hproduct-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-feedback&diff=0&oldid=10410 * AndyMabbett * (+85) example
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  86. [09:03:33] <mfbot> [[review]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/review * AndyMabbett * (+21) redirect
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  114. [14:07:22] * bengee wonders if the @href value in rel-tag anchors can be relative, e.g. <a href="../../tags/foo" rel="tag">foo</a>, iow do the current tools consider the page base?
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  120. [15:23:06] <drewinthehead> bengee: that's two questions
  121. [15:23:18] <bengee> yeah, I know ;)
  122. [15:23:25] <drewinthehead> rel-tag uris can be relative, yes
  123. [15:23:58] <bengee> 'k, good, thx :)
  124. [15:24:07] <drewinthehead> as for the tools, it'll depend on the tool.
  125. [15:24:11] <Frederic> eve though "cool uris don't change"
  126. [15:24:19] <drewinthehead> i think rel-lint will cope with that fine
  127. [15:24:34] <drewinthehead> how is the uri changing, Frederic?
  128. [15:24:53] <Frederic> drewinthehead: I just mean you can put the absolute url without danger
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  133. [15:43:05] <evanpro> tantek: I had some ideas about using hCard as a profile exchange mechanism for OpenID
  134. [15:44:08] <evanpro> The only problem I see is that there are access control issues for profile data
  135. [15:44:27] <evanpro> With sreg, the user can decide which data to share with which depending parties
  136. [15:45:05] <evanpro> For example, I may be comfortable sharing my email address with goodkarma.com but not with sleazyspam.net
  137. [15:46:07] <evanpro> If profile info is in an hCard on my OpenID identity page, it can be read by anyone
  138. [15:48:46] <evanpro> But it may make sense to do it this way:
  139. [15:48:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  140. [15:49:18] <evanpro> For information I don't mind anyone having, I put that in my hCard on the identity page
  141. [15:49:33] <evanpro> Other information I wait for requests, and pick among them
  142. [15:50:15] <evanpro> An example consumer, say, may want my preferred language, timezone, and email address to set up a new account
  143. [15:50:45] <evanpro> It could get the email address from my hCard, then request the other two items through sreg
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  157. [17:10:12] <tantek> evanpro - yes, for sreg the mechanism you are correct
  158. [17:10:31] <tantek> but sreg also has a mini-schema and mini-vocabulary for exchanging the specific information
  159. [17:11:05] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  160. [17:11:08] <tantek> and that is what I'm complaining about - those should have been completely reused from hCard/vCard, rather than reinventing yet-another-set-of-profile-properties
  161. [17:11:16] <evanpro> ah, I see
  162. [17:11:50] <tantek> the bigger question is, how can we combat this tendency towards unnecessary reinvention?
  163. [17:12:12] <tantek> is there simply a lack of understanding of the how and why to reuse?
  164. [17:18:53] <evanpro> Interesting
  165. [17:19:08] <evanpro> http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-exchange-1_0-02.html <-- this is the next-generation profile exchange spec
  166. [17:19:13] <evanpro> Not yet finalized
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  168. [17:24:27] <tantek> evanpro, it feels a bit overdesigned, and smells RDFy - given the requirement to use URLs for property names
  169. [17:25:07] <tantek> of course the hCard profile provides a URL for each hCard property so perhaps there is some potential for reuse there
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  180. [18:19:41] * danja miskeys, http://technoratic.com - yuck!
  181. [18:19:54] <KevinMarks> oops
  182. [18:20:13] <KevinMarks> not as bad as python.com for python.org - that really threw me
  183. [18:24:12] * bewest shivers
  184. [18:24:14] <bewest> KevinMarks: I've done that
  185. [18:24:20] <bewest> disturbing
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  194. [19:00:04] <davecardwell> KevinMarks: I wonder how many mis-hits Parents Helping Parents get
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  199. [20:11:05] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=10411 * Dougal Campbell * (+365)
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  220. [21:58:54] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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  229. [22:57:49] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=10412 * AndyMabbett * (+1) make list
  230. [22:58:20] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=10413 * AndyMabbett * (-1) copy edit
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.