IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  5. [00:15:23] <mfbot> [[A proposal for amendment of the geo microformat]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=A_proposal_for_amendment_of_the_geo_microformat&diff=0&oldid=12651 * DimitriosZachariadis * (+216) Default Reference System -
  6. [00:32:45] <mfbot> [[A proposal for amendment of the geo microformat]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=A_proposal_for_amendment_of_the_geo_microformat&diff=0&oldid=12652 * DimitriosZachariadis * (-178)
  7. [00:34:22] * ntoll (n=ntoll@85-210-169-69.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  8. [00:37:55] <ntoll> hi, is there an existing way to show if a marked up "thing" is a mandatory or optional requirement (such as in a shopping list written out using XOXO: MUST get Loo Roll, nice to get choc-chip cookies etc etc)? Could I not just add a "mandatory" class to the item in question?
  9. [00:40:04] <tantek> ok folks, since no other alternatives have been proposed, let's declare that Nova *is* the location for tonight's SF microformats dinner.
  10. [00:40:47] <ntoll> have a good time...
  11. [00:43:27] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12653 * Tantek * (+322) SF microformats dinner location finalized. Nova.
  12. [00:43:41] <tantek> ntoll - not sure what you mean by "mandatory"
  13. [00:43:50] <tantek> what is the context?
  14. [00:45:09] <ntoll> well, take the shopping list - it is a list of requirements, some of which MUST be met whilst others are optional
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  16. [00:45:43] <ntoll> mandatory might not be the best terminology though....
  17. [00:46:40] <ntoll> I'm also thinking about the requirements for a job-listing (again) - some skills will be mandatory whilst others would be "nice-to-have"
  18. [00:51:01] <tantek> rather than abstracting to "mandatory" / "nice-to-have", I think it is worth seeing if such a property is in the 80/20 of those containing microformats first, and designing accordingly.
  19. [00:51:48] <ntoll> I agree...
  20. [00:51:52] <tantek> creating abstract generic properties in a vacuum (or before / without constraining them with specific examples) will likely result in them either being overly watered down, or overly complex in order to handle "possible cases" instead of "actual cases"
  21. [00:55:18] <ntoll> actually, I was thinking along the lines of XOXO within XOXO?!? e.g. the markup example in the SImple XOXO examples on the wiki
  22. [00:55:58] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-la-get-together]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-la-get-together&diff=0&oldid=12654 * Mike * (+201) can't make it on friday. Added link to free wifi list for LA
  23. [00:56:19] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12655 * Ravenium * (+53)
  24. [00:56:59] <ntoll> something like... <ul class="xoxo"> <li>Mandatory<ol class="xoxo"><li>item 1</li></ol></li><li>Optional <......></ul> etc etc
  25. [00:57:38] <ntoll> hmmm... well, just talking about it seems to have cleared it in my mind... I'll go with XOXO.... :-)
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  27. [00:58:35] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-la-get-together]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-la-get-together&diff=0&oldid=12656 * Tantek * (+68) please put your name next to your vote for any proposals
  28. [00:59:06] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12657 * Tantek * (+6)
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  31. [01:12:18] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12658 * Veeliam * (+22)
  32. [01:18:24] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12659 * Tantek * (+0)
  33. [01:26:30] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12660 * Tantek * (+44)
  34. [01:27:31] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12661 * Tantek * (+89)
  35. [01:28:07] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12662 * Tantek * (+7)
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  47. [02:23:38] <KevinMarks> tantek, can you save me a seat
  48. [02:23:52] <tantek> KevinMarks - first come first serve!
  49. [02:24:08] <tantek> and currently we have 4 out of 8 spots at a table
  50. [02:31:35] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-la-get-together]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-la-get-together&diff=0&oldid=12663 * Mike * (-11) put my name
  51. [02:40:16] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12664 * Chris Messina * (+28)
  52. [02:47:44] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12665 * Tantek * (+92)
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  55. [02:52:04] <Baristo> Hello!
  56. [02:56:20] <tantek_> Hello Baristo - a bunch of us are having dinner right now.
  57. [02:57:01] <Baristo> Ah okay, hope it's a good meal!
  58. [02:57:55] <Baristo> I had a question or two so I'll wait till more people are about.
  59. [02:59:27] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-la-get-together]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-la-get-together&diff=0&oldid=12666 * Leikam * (+67)
  60. [02:59:54] <tantek_> the table is now full at Nova
  61. [03:00:04] <tantek_> anybody else coming will need to collect folks and grab a second table
  62. [03:00:30] <tantek_> which is not too bad now that it is an HOUR after the start time ;)
  63. [03:00:31] <Baristo> Which city is this?
  64. [03:00:48] <tantek_> http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner
  65. [03:01:17] <Baristo> Ah nice. I'm up in Seattle else I'd come find a seat. :)
  66. [03:02:09] <Baristo> I really do need to relocate to the Bay aera.
  67. [03:02:11] <Baristo> *area
  68. [03:02:59] <KevinMarks> well, I'm still fixing spiders, btu i should be there soon
  69. [03:05:15] <Baristo> I'm weighing in on how Microformats can be integrated into an upcoming site project of mine.
  70. [03:05:55] <KevinMarks> upcoming.org ? ;)
  71. [03:06:59] <Baristo> Haha. :D
  72. [03:07:44] <Baristo> That's a cleaver site indeed.
  73. [03:07:56] <Baristo> *clever
  74. [03:08:17] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-70-132-22-252.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  75. [03:08:36] <Baristo> More in line with my name though. Think cork'd for coffee.
  76. [03:09:47] <Baristo> With a few extras.
  77. [03:12:40] <Baristo> So many people consume it, why not give them an online community? :)
  78. [03:12:50] <Baristo> *interactive community
  79. [03:15:18] * bear_afk is now known as bear
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  82. [03:15:40] <Baristo> Welcome back tantek.
  83. [03:16:56] <Baristo> Anyway, hope you all have a great dinner! I'll be around for a while so when more people are chatty we can talk integration. :)
  84. [03:18:23] <tantek> the table next to ours just opened up
  85. [03:18:31] <tantek> is anyone coming in the next 5 minutes?
  86. [03:18:34] <tantek> if so, we can grab it
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  88. [03:34:05] <tantek> Chris Messina has just arrived, and squatting an empty table for 8.
  89. [03:34:27] * monkinetic_ (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  90. [03:34:39] <Baristo> Want to hold the table while I hop on a plane? :)
  91. [03:38:49] * monkinetic_ is now known as redmonk
  92. [03:40:12] <KevinMarks> this is Nova next door to 21st amendment?
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  100. [04:16:07] <mfbot> [[rejected-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rejected-formats&diff=0&oldid=12667 * Tantek * (+194)
  101. [04:19:03] <mfbot> [[abstract-properties]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/abstract-properties * Tantek * (+590)
  102. [04:19:19] <mfbot> [[abstract-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=abstract-properties&diff=0&oldid=12668 * Tantek * (-1)
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  104. [04:22:26] <mfbot> [[abstract-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=abstract-properties&diff=0&oldid=12669 * Tantek * (+74) link to parent context
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  106. [04:34:52] <tantek_> down to 0% battery life.
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  116. [06:11:58] <Baristo> How did the dinner go?
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  120. [06:58:18] <Baristo> Does Dan Benjamin or Cederholm come in here much at all? I'd love to chat with them about some things.
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  136. [09:16:37] <Baristo> Evening folks. :)
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  143. [10:08:32] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12670 * Veeliam * (-39)
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  173. [13:56:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12671 * FredericLepied * (-142) Examples with some problems -
  174. [13:56:39] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  175. [13:57:14] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12672 * FredericLepied * (+137) New Examples -
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  178. [14:23:06] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  179. [14:23:17] <AdamCraven> Quick question:
  180. [14:23:29] <AdamCraven> When marking up this information
  181. [14:23:31] <AdamCraven> Las Vegas Store3663 Las Vegas Blvd SouthSuite #210Las Vegas, NV 89109P: 702-688-4227F: 702-938-7647
  182. [14:23:39] <AdamCraven> with Hcard
  183. [14:23:55] <AdamCraven> What is 'Las Vegas Store' attributed under
  184. [14:24:37] <AdamCraven> The organisation is 'Ben Sherman'
  185. [14:25:13] * BenWard ponders this a bit
  186. [14:26:14] <AdamCraven> under org there's 'organization-name' and 'organization unit'
  187. [14:30:05] <BenWard> From a little hunt around, I think it's organization-uni that you're looking for
  188. [14:32:50] * monkinetic adds experimental hcard support to a major (and i do mean major) hosting provider's in-development ecommerce app
  189. [14:36:44] <AdamCraven> yeah, I'm not too sure about it! Nice one Monkinetic. I've been adding them to all the major sites I've been working on too
  190. [14:41:23] <monkinetic> Operator gives me warm fuzzies when adding uF to apps
  191. [14:42:06] <monkinetic> are locality, region, postal-code *required* inside adr?
  192. [14:42:21] <monkinetic> or can I do <adr>City, State, Zip</adr>
  193. [14:42:29] <monkinetic> (if i don't control that data)
  194. [14:43:49] <AdamCraven> they aren't required
  195. [14:44:10] <AdamCraven> http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/cheatsheet/
  196. [14:44:15] <AdamCraven> Brilliant for reference
  197. [14:44:38] <monkinetic> true
  198. [14:46:02] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  199. [14:47:41] * monkinetic tacks it up on his wall
  200. [14:49:48] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  201. [14:50:30] * briansuda is half here
  202. [14:50:42] <briansuda> Las Vegas Store could be marked-up as 'extended-address'
  203. [14:57:02] <monkinetic> brian: does X2V handle anything other than vcard?
  204. [14:57:35] <monkinetic> ah - hcard and hcal
  205. [14:57:35] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-f33a309d67587c7c) has joined #microformats
  206. [14:57:46] <monkinetic> mkaply: hi!
  207. [14:58:06] <mkaply> monkinetic: hey. FYI I added magnolia support for xfolk
  208. [14:58:14] <monkinetic> nice
  209. [14:58:15] <briansuda> X2V was a bad name, because now it encompases alot of different things
  210. [14:58:20] <AdamCraven> On the same question, is this invalid?
  211. [14:58:20] <AdamCraven> <span class="tel">
  212. [14:58:20] <AdamCraven> <span class="type work">T</span>
  213. [14:58:20] <AdamCraven> <span class="value">318-657-3400</span>
  214. [14:58:20] <AdamCraven> </span>
  215. [14:58:44] <briansuda> sort-of
  216. [14:58:48] <monkinetic> briansuda: i had an idea to create a transformation into standard resume format for hresume
  217. [14:58:48] <briansuda> it is valid mark-up
  218. [14:58:54] <briansuda> but the TYPE is incorrect
  219. [14:58:57] <AdamCraven> the clients are very strict with the visual content, so using 'work' over 'T' would unfortunately be not possible
  220. [14:59:05] <briansuda> you'd need <span class="type">work</span>
  221. [14:59:07] <briansuda> or
  222. [14:59:20] <briansuda> <span class="type"><abbr title="work">T</abbr></span>
  223. [14:59:41] <AdamCraven> wow, that's a posh solution
  224. [14:59:46] <briansuda> monkinetic, hresume->???
  225. [15:00:00] <monkinetic> so that you could markup up your web page as hresume but make is as purty as you like, then provide a download link to a standardized format
  226. [15:00:02] <briansuda> or Adam Craven, you can do:
  227. [15:00:17] <monkinetic> briansuda: html actually, unless you could spit out rtf ;-)
  228. [15:00:18] <briansuda> <img src="work.png" alt="work" class="type">
  229. [15:00:39] <mkaply> ooh. that's a good one.
  230. [15:00:53] <briansuda> there is Resume-XML and a EU HR standard
  231. [15:00:54] <AdamCraven> ah, these are taken from the design patterns?
  232. [15:01:21] <briansuda> not really design patterns, but more just how attributes are correctly semantically interpreted
  233. [15:01:31] <briansuda> like @title on ABBR, and @alt on IMG
  234. [15:02:11] <AdamCraven> semantically, is 't' an abbreviation of 'work'?
  235. [15:02:32] <briansuda> :) that's the crux of alot of debate
  236. [15:03:32] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. [15:03:57] <mkaply> AdamCraven: you wouldn't hapepn to work at zdnet.co.uk, would you?
  238. [15:04:02] <AdamCraven> yeah, I can see why! I like the idea of having multiple classes to represent data (the wrong way I did it before), because it allows a lot more flexibility with styling the data after.
  239. [15:04:45] <AdamCraven> I don't no. I'm doing some freelancing ATM (http://codepress.co.uk) and will be working for a company called cimex at the end of the month
  240. [15:04:48] <monkinetic> mkaply: operator needs photo/logo/note support :-)
  241. [15:04:53] <AdamCraven> *i don't, no
  242. [15:05:01] <mkaply> AdamCraven: http://zdnet.co.uk/misc/contact/
  243. [15:05:26] <mkaply> monkinetic: I'm considering a sidebar, but I don't want to step on Tails Export. It would also allow for doing multiperson export
  244. [15:05:41] <AdamCraven> what am I looking for mkaply?
  245. [15:05:55] <monkinetic> mkaply: mostly i'm lookig for it in the debug window
  246. [15:05:57] <mkaply> AdamCraven: zdnet.co.uk uses the T thing as well and totally screws it up:
  247. [15:06:00] <mkaply> so you are not alone :)
  248. [15:06:02] <mkaply> <div class="tel">
  249. [15:06:02] <mkaply> <span class="type">T:</span>
  250. [15:06:02] <mkaply> <span class="value">+44 (0)20 7903 6980</span>
  251. [15:06:02] <mkaply> </div>
  252. [15:06:03] <monkinetic> even if you don't "do" anything with it yet
  253. [15:06:08] <AdamCraven> aha
  254. [15:06:12] <mkaply> monkinetic: that's really easy
  255. [15:06:25] <monkinetic> yeah, it would make it easier to make sure we're implementing them right
  256. [15:06:49] <monkinetic> hey, i wonder if you could ping the firebug guy
  257. [15:06:50] <mkaply> monkinetic: adding now. I added bday yesterday. And started working on note
  258. [15:06:52] <AdamCraven> I believe it should be: <span class="type work">T:</span>
  259. [15:07:01] <monkinetic> and roll some of the operator debug info into a firebug tab
  260. [15:07:23] <AdamCraven> it's wrong at the moment, but it should be implemented the 'extra' class method
  261. [15:07:26] <mkaply> hmm. extending firebog
  262. [15:07:28] <monkinetic> console | html | css | script | dom | uF :-)
  263. [15:07:39] <briansuda> <span class="type work">T:</span> is still invalid
  264. [15:07:45] <AdamCraven> I know it is
  265. [15:08:05] <briansuda> once the parser finds class="type" it has to look for the child for the value, not on the same node...
  266. [15:08:32] <AdamCraven> an annoying technical limitation!
  267. [15:09:21] <briansuda> all part of human-readability! and nesting of things so it is possible to associate data
  268. [15:10:17] <monkinetic> mkaply: http://code.google.com/p/firephp/wiki/ExtendingFirebug
  269. [15:10:22] <monkinetic> FYI :-)
  270. [15:11:33] <mkaply> hmmm
  271. [15:11:45] <AdamCraven> Then it's an issue of the semantic problems. The 't' abbreviation for 'work'. Although couldn't you just have '<span class="tel>T:<span class="value">3232-3232-32</span><span>, thus not having to include the 'type'?
  272. [15:11:51] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  273. [15:12:11] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  274. [15:12:14] <mkaply> AdamCraven: yeah, but having the work semantic in there is nice.
  275. [15:12:23] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  276. [15:12:52] <monkinetic> mkaply: also, perhaps make the structure tab on the debug window the default
  277. [15:13:11] <briansuda> i wouldn't get too hung-up on T != work
  278. [15:13:15] <mkaply> monkinetic: that's funny. I thought people would be more interested in the source
  279. [15:13:18] <AdamCraven> I know, but sometimes the client specs are inflexible. Plus when representing companies, having a phone number listed as 'work' isn't common. It's more 'call us' 'telephone' 'contact nubmer'
  280. [15:13:18] <briansuda> it is a 'work Telephone'
  281. [15:13:34] <monkinetic> not the kind of people that use "debug"
  282. [15:13:36] <monkinetic> :D
  283. [15:30:10] <mkaply> monkinetic: nice thought. but that Firebug stuff appears dated. I was able to get a tab to appear, but it is much more complex than that :)
  284. [15:30:25] <monkinetic> heh
  285. [15:30:48] <monkinetic> well, i might still ping joe hewitt (firebug guy) and ask about it
  286. [15:31:14] <monkinetic> i think it would be a huge addition - it would also help all those devleopers out there that are using firebug to be more aware of uFs
  287. [15:32:03] <mkaply> I did ping joe - I know him
  288. [15:35:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd083.rhi.hi.is) Quit ("need to find better wifi!")
  289. [15:36:40] <monkinetic> mkaply: cool
  290. [15:38:36] <mkaply> I got a tab appearing in Firebug, but I can't hook it up
  291. [15:38:56] <monkinetic> bummer.
  292. [15:39:06] <monkinetic> cool idea though, huh?
  293. [15:39:50] <monkinetic> anyone know how to make a "mu" on a windows keyboard?
  294. [15:39:54] <mkaply> monkinetic: very
  295. [15:43:11] <mkaply> monkinetic: user charmap
  296. [15:43:20] <mkaply> µ
  297. [15:44:55] <monkinetic> man, i miss my mac. alt-<char> and alt-shift-<char> give you a lot of the usual international characters (accented characters and greek characters)
  298. [15:46:44] <monkinetic> μ
  299. [15:46:59] <monkinetic> μF!
  300. [15:47:00] <monkinetic> :D
  301. [15:48:51] <mkaply> monkinetic: you can easily configure your windows keyboard to do that
  302. [15:49:00] <monkinetic> yeah?
  303. [15:49:02] <monkinetic> how so?
  304. [15:50:45] <mkaply> add
  305. [15:51:26] <mkaply> monkinetic: did you get all that?
  306. [15:51:44] <monkinetic> nope
  307. [15:51:46] <monkinetic> none of it
  308. [15:51:53] <mkaply> monkinetic: strange. I guess I can't personal message you
  309. [15:52:01] <monkinetic> weird
  310. [15:52:05] <monkinetic> should be able to
  311. [15:52:07] <mkaply> monkinetic: join #foo
  312. [16:05:57] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12673 * XyMox12 * (+34) Stroked out error message as site has been altered
  313. [16:07:06] <monkinetic> mkaply: in other news, operator does not seem to grab the value of adr if it's not in sub-items
  314. [16:07:47] <monkinetic> i've got <span class="adr">city, state, zip</span> and operator's debug window shows an empty adr object
  315. [16:10:36] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  316. [16:37:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=12674 * OlivierSeres * (+292) GreatPlaceToGolf -
  317. [16:38:08] <mkaply> monkinetic: My understanding is that is invalid markup.
  318. [16:38:17] <mkaply> I thought adr was a container object only?
  319. [16:38:51] <monkinetic> mkaply: huh - i asked earlier about that and was told that the sub-elements were optional
  320. [16:38:53] <monkinetic> hm.
  321. [16:40:01] <mkaply> monkinetic: ok, my bad then. Although not using subelements makes most Operator functionality useless
  322. [16:40:24] <mkaply> Things like yahoo contact, export, etc. rely on being able to parse out the values...
  323. [16:40:36] <monkinetic> well, i know. but in this case, adr is a single text field for the user, so i can't depend on having access to each component to mark it up
  324. [16:44:39] <mkaply> monkinetic: can you give me a logo/photo example?
  325. [16:49:37] <mkaply> monkinetic: so should adr only be the text of the adr if there are no subcategories at all?
  326. [16:56:55] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd083.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  327. [16:56:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  328. [16:59:27] <mkaply> briansuda: Just the person I was thinking about. Are the attributes under an adr optional? And if so, what does an adr without any options mean? You can't really do anything with it
  329. [16:59:58] <briansuda> right, but i am pretty sure there is no required values inside ADR
  330. [17:00:23] <briansuda> if you had a class="adr" and nothing underneath, X2V will return something like ....
  331. [17:00:44] <briansuda> ADR:;;;;; which is just a blank address. That then will probably just be ignored by importing apps
  332. [17:01:02] <briansuda> and/or it will add blank values if you were 'merging' an old vCard and a New
  333. [17:01:41] <mkaply> briansuda: Yeah. that seems like bad practice. I can make some stuff work in Operator with a plain address, but not everything
  334. [17:02:04] <briansuda> what do you mean exactly?
  335. [17:02:23] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  336. [17:02:25] <mkaply> well, like adding a yahoo contact - it requires explicit address information
  337. [17:02:32] <mkaply> the yahoo API that is
  338. [17:02:57] <mkaply> it doesn't have a "one box"
  339. [17:02:58] <briansuda> you are required to have some ADR info?
  340. [17:03:27] <mkaply> briansuda: I see what you are saying. No you aren't.
  341. [17:03:43] <mkaply> So basically, I can allow an adr with nothing underneath, but it won't get used anywhere.
  342. [17:03:47] <mkaply> IT will just be data I store
  343. [17:04:05] <briansuda> yes, or the importing app will be smart enough and just ignore it too
  344. [17:04:36] <briansuda> i would imagine an blank PHOTO, blank LOGO, etc would just be ignored/scrubbed by the importer
  345. [17:04:49] <briansuda> that is sort-of out of scope for us,
  346. [17:05:10] <briansuda> if you intentionally marked-up the microformats, then we should preserve what you intended
  347. [17:05:16] <briansuda> even if it is blank
  348. [17:05:35] <mkaply> briansuda: fair.
  349. [17:05:39] <briansuda> because there MIGHT have been an intent with a NULL value - it is not our job to decide to clean it up
  350. [17:05:46] <briansuda> that's my take
  351. [17:05:57] <briansuda> same for valid/invalid values
  352. [17:06:18] <mkaply> briansuda: so you would even store an invalid type if it wasn't in the list?
  353. [17:06:24] <briansuda> i clean-up ISO times and normalize them, but not much else. I'll leave the validation to importing apps
  354. [17:06:44] <mkaply> briansuda: FYI So one feature I added into Operator (it's VERY hidden) is that if you put all of your XSL files in a specific directory, I invoke your converter under the covers and put it in the debug window
  355. [17:06:46] <briansuda> depends, not invalid attributes (home, work, etc.) those are enumerated
  356. [17:06:53] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  357. [17:07:17] <briansuda> but for EMAIL, i would let something like "foo@bar@@@.com" pass
  358. [17:07:20] <mkaply> So I can compare to your results. I'm still running into some URL weirdness. I'll have to put my test page up somewhere
  359. [17:07:33] <mkaply> briansuda: I'm definitely not parsing emails and things like that for correctness
  360. [17:07:40] <briansuda> that is obviously invalid, but not my prob, some one intentionally marked it up that way
  361. [17:07:43] * bergie (n=bergie@84.243.52.249) Quit ()
  362. [17:07:49] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@84.243.52.249) Quit ()
  363. [17:07:59] <briansuda> great to hear about the Debug stuff.
  364. [17:08:13] <briansuda> that keeps both of us honest and up-to-date on the code-base
  365. [17:08:26] <mkaply> briansuda: I was originally going to use your online version directly, but I didn't want to keep hitting your server :)
  366. [17:08:58] <briansuda> probably a good idea, it is a shared box so there would be preformance issues :)
  367. [17:09:35] <mkaply> briansuda: What might be interesting is a way to download all 5 of your XML files in one shot for people.
  368. [17:09:42] <mkaply> that want to use that feature.
  369. [17:09:59] <briansuda> not a bad idea.
  370. [17:10:11] <mkaply> And I had to change those files to not have relative URLs in them.
  371. [17:10:31] <briansuda> i have been migrating away from the URL /projects/X2V/ and giving each format it's own directory
  372. [17:10:47] <briansuda> i could use X2V as the 'download all' extract all, sort of homepage
  373. [17:11:15] <briansuda> yeah, i have run into the relative URL issue too, it is possible to use the fully qualified http://
  374. [17:11:28] <briansuda> but then all calles use bandwidth instead of the file system
  375. [17:11:32] <briansuda> so i'll tweak it abit
  376. [17:12:02] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  377. [17:12:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  378. [17:12:59] * briansuda wonders is anyone else is having trouble with Twitterrific timing out?
  379. [17:14:08] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  380. [17:15:16] * BenWard (n=BenWard@host81-156-108-10.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  381. [17:30:41] * mustaqila (n=moose@last.fm/staff/Muz) has joined #microformats
  382. [17:32:29] <mkaply> briansuda: sorry, one more opinion question. If there were some scenario where someone did <span class="adr">123 Anywhere Street<span class="postal-code">78641</span></span>
  383. [17:32:33] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  384. [17:32:39] * Baristo (n=baristo@68.178.101.38) has joined #microformats
  385. [17:32:57] <briansuda> a string parser would ONLY extract the postal-code
  386. [17:33:15] <briansuda> because you could have...
  387. [17:33:31] <mkaply> But if I had both pieces of data, the "adr" and the postal code, and I were sending to an information resource like google maps that allows a free form address, should I send both pieces of information?
  388. [17:33:32] <briansuda> <p class="adr">please send all packages to <span class="postal-code">78641</span></p>
  389. [17:33:57] <briansuda> because there is no requirement that ONLY address data be children of ADR
  390. [17:34:00] <mkaply> ok. So adr as text should really only exist if there are no children
  391. [17:34:11] <briansuda> in a strict sense yes,
  392. [17:34:30] <mkaply> In my context, where I could pass adr to say google maps, I would only want it if there were no children
  393. [17:34:32] <monkinetic> mkaply: hcard w/ photo: http://redmonk.net/about-this-site/
  394. [17:34:36] <briansuda> now if you want to TRY and do hueristics, and extract other data, more power to you, but you could get false-positives
  395. [17:35:14] <briansuda> well, if there are no children you could TRY, or just do nothing?
  396. [17:35:15] <mkaply> briansuda: no interest in that. With international addresses, that would be next to impossible
  397. [17:35:33] <mkaply> monkinetic: photo/logo support added (all I do is store it)
  398. [17:35:53] <briansuda> even with international addresses, the postal-code and city are sometimes flipped, so you will have to even reformat the structured data for google maps
  399. [17:35:55] <monkinetic> mkaply: yeah, that's fine, just so we can debug the uF and see that it was correctly parsed
  400. [17:36:08] <mkaply> monkinetic: I'm going to store adr information in the structure if adr has NO children, but that's all. I might make google maps and yahoo work with free format adr
  401. [17:36:32] * mkaply hopes google maps is smart enough to figure that out :)
  402. [17:36:57] * monkinetic tsks tsks at KevinMarks: technorati has no hcards on http://technorati.com/blogs/http%3A%2F%2Fredmonk.net <-- was looking for LOGO support
  403. [17:37:13] <monkinetic> mkaply: again, that's fine
  404. [17:38:17] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
  405. [17:38:18] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  406. [17:38:23] <monkinetic> KevinMarks: i take it back - http://technorati.com/profile/monkinetic is the more canonical page and is marked up.
  407. [17:38:26] <monkinetic> but still no logo support
  408. [17:38:44] <monkinetic> >:-)
  409. [17:39:11] <Baristo> Hi folks!
  410. [17:39:14] <briansuda> i always think of LOGOs for a company and PHOTO for a person
  411. [17:39:35] <briansuda> the tricky thing with PHOTO and LOGO is that very few address books support them
  412. [17:39:46] <briansuda> and the ones that do, do not support LOGO/PHOTO as a URL
  413. [17:39:53] <monkinetic> briansuda: i would have as well, but i asked here yesterday about avatar support, and ryan king advised me to use LOGO)
  414. [17:39:56] <mkaply> briansuda: yeah. I just tried with outlook
  415. [17:40:12] <monkinetic> hm, what about data urls?
  416. [17:40:15] <mkaply> monkinetic: can you give me a no children address example? I'm too lazy to do one up real quick
  417. [17:40:27] <mkaply> I doubt it.
  418. [17:40:27] <briansuda> the data uri seems to work with the apple address book
  419. [17:40:33] <mkaply> wow. That's impressive
  420. [17:40:44] <monkinetic> data uri's PWN
  421. [17:40:53] <briansuda> well, X2V converts the data uri into BASE64 into the LOGO portion of vCard
  422. [17:42:00] <mkaply> briansuda: so you should grab the image from the url, encode64 it and embed it :)
  423. [17:42:08] <monkinetic> gah. "Microsoft's Internet Explorer, as of versions 6 and 7, lacks support." <-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data:_URI_scheme
  424. [17:43:08] <briansuda> mkaply, that is what i do, luckily for the data: you already BASE64 things, so it is just a split after the first ':' and take that data for the vCard
  425. [17:44:49] <monkinetic> this is the bomb:
  426. [17:44:56] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) Quit (Excess Flood)
  427. [17:45:31] <mkaply> ha
  428. [17:46:02] * monkinetic (i=redmonk@bia.crschmidt.net) has joined #microformats
  429. [17:46:08] <monkinetic> damnit. sorry
  430. [17:46:17] <mkaply> monkinetic: two microformats on your about page. Dude
  431. [17:46:24] * mkaply goes to resolve duplicate vcards
  432. [17:46:35] <monkinetic> sorry, one's in the sidebar
  433. [17:46:41] <monkinetic> so it shows up on any way
  434. [17:46:45] <monkinetic> any page, i mean
  435. [17:48:29] <mkaply> Maybe I should put org after a name whenever I find duplicates. Hmm
  436. [17:48:40] <mkaply> Right now I only do that on incldues
  437. [17:50:31] <Atamido> I am using LOGO and PHOTO in a mapping app where LOGO shows the store's logo (usually from their website), and PHOTO shows a picture of their store front.
  438. [17:51:44] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  439. [17:52:00] * mustaqila_ (n=moose@last.fm/staff/Muz) Quit (Connection timed out)
  440. [17:52:18] <monkinetic> Atamido: clever
  441. [17:52:32] <Atamido> monkinetic: I have seen data URI submitted as bug test cases for Firefox. That is _not_ a good use. :P
  442. [17:52:56] <monkinetic> Atamido: heh, no
  443. [17:53:26] <Atamido> Encoding a webpage as a data URI should be punishable with a thousand lashings of a wet noodle.
  444. [17:54:21] <mkaply> monkinetic: what was that magnolia page with multiple of the same vcards?
  445. [17:54:52] <monkinetic> hm.
  446. [17:55:29] <mkaply> I think it was your link page or something like that
  447. [17:55:31] <monkinetic> http://ma.gnolia.com/html/hreview/people/steveivy/
  448. [17:55:40] <monkinetic> that's one
  449. [17:56:14] <briansuda> Atamido, one good use of Data URI would be for something like an S5 HTML presentation. All the CSS, images, js, are in a single HTML file. No broken links, no zipping files, or emailing multiple attachements. It is just a single working file with everything self contained
  450. [17:57:42] <Atamido> briansuda: Sure, embedding data URIs inside of a webpage is good. Having only a data URI of a webpage is not. ;)
  451. [17:58:18] <briansuda> probably not, but that is sure one way to obfuscate an email address!
  452. [18:00:46] <Atamido> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%3Chtml%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cp%20style%3D%22text-decoration%3Ablink%3Bcolor%3Ared%3B%22%3EMoo!%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fbody%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E%0D%0A
  453. [18:02:03] <briansuda> red Moo!, works fine in Safari!
  454. [18:02:30] <Atamido> Congratulations, we've just invented HTTP over IRC.
  455. [18:03:10] <Atamido> Now to patent it and make lots of money.
  456. [18:03:23] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  457. [18:03:32] <monkinetic> aaaagh! teh blink!
  458. [18:03:59] * Atamido wonders why IE doesn't support the precious <blinken>.
  459. [18:05:19] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  460. [18:05:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  461. [18:05:58] <Atamido> Just remember, it could always be worse. data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%3Chtml%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cp%20style%3D%22text-decoration%3Ablink%3Bcolor%3Ared%3Bfont-size%3A350px%3Bfont-weight%3Abold%3B%22%3EMoo!%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fbody%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E%0D%0A
  462. [18:06:55] <Atamido> Bleh, I can't wait for the reflow branch to bring us FF users nicely anti-aliased fonts.
  463. [18:07:15] * bergie (n=bergie@c-1e20e353.1050-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #microformats
  464. [18:07:39] <Atamido> Oooh, I think I'll fix my web app so that it actually validates.
  465. [18:08:12] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@c-1e20e353.1050-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #microformats
  466. [18:08:18] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@c-1e20e353.1050-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  467. [18:10:00] * markp (n=chatzill@adsl-221-38-113.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  468. [18:11:19] <mkaply> monkinetic: ok. duplicate removakl
  469. [18:11:35] <mkaply> monkinetic: that page resolves down to one steve ivy
  470. [18:11:49] <monkinetic> nice, how'd you do it?
  471. [18:12:23] <mkaply> monkinetic: when I see the displayname is the same, I do a for loop through all the members of the class and create one big concatenated string
  472. [18:12:33] <mkaply> If that string is == between two objects, they are exactly the same
  473. [18:12:39] <monkinetic> nice
  474. [18:13:03] <mkaply> The only downside (if you can call it that) is that highlighting from the menu won't work
  475. [18:13:40] <mkaply> weird. it highlights the fourth one
  476. [18:14:35] <mkaply> Should I sort the microformats on all pages? Or is there any reason to have them in page order.
  477. [18:14:44] <mkaply> I have to sort to remove duplicates. I guess I should make everything sort now.
  478. [18:20:18] <Baristo> Hey folks, how's the day going for everyone?
  479. [18:21:49] <Ronnos> slowly Baristo :P
  480. [18:22:13] <Baristo> Ah sorry to hear Ronnos, I just got to work myself.
  481. [18:22:40] <mkaply> can't remove eventful.com duplicates. Ah well.
  482. [18:22:44] <Ronnos> ah well, the weekend started here just 1,5 hour ago
  483. [18:22:46] <Baristo> But I'm pretty jazzed, I just formed a partnership with a developer and we're getting to work on a new community site.
  484. [18:23:06] <Baristo> Going to be implementing MF throughout. :)
  485. [18:23:26] <Ronnos> a community site, a good place to start implementing MF indeed :)
  486. [18:24:11] <Baristo> Definitely. XFN, hCard, hReview, voting, etc. You name it, I'll be implementing it.
  487. [18:24:41] <Ronnos> well, don't overdo it
  488. [18:24:59] <Baristo> Oh sure. It will go where it needs to, and everywhere else it won't.
  489. [18:24:59] <Baristo> :)
  490. [18:25:00] <Ronnos> better implement 1 format correct
  491. [18:25:02] <Ronnos> ;)
  492. [18:25:09] <Ronnos> than implement 5 corrupt :)
  493. [18:25:12] <Baristo> Hehe
  494. [18:25:22] <Baristo> We'll be starting with hCard.
  495. [18:25:46] <Ronnos> what kind of community will it be?
  496. [18:26:34] <Baristo> Sort of a coffee/cafe enthusiest site.
  497. [18:26:59] <Ronnos> like the idea
  498. [18:27:43] <Baristo> Thanks! We're keeping the site's scope pretty narrow at first, but we already have a couple release versions planned out.
  499. [18:28:02] <Ronnos> a website is never finished :)
  500. [18:28:13] <Baristo> That's what I love about them. :)
  501. [18:28:59] <Baristo> I was actually curious if you or anyone else has had success implementing MT with Haml markup?
  502. [18:29:14] <Baristo> It seems to be a great way to implement MT.
  503. [18:29:22] <Baristo> For templating sites.
  504. [18:29:41] <Ronnos> hm, nope
  505. [18:30:19] <Baristo> Ah no worries. Have you heard of Haml?
  506. [18:30:51] <Ronnos> little bit, but can't find any spare time to fill with reading a bit more about it
  507. [18:31:44] <Baristo> I was introduced to it last night by my partner.
  508. [18:31:48] <Baristo> I love it. :)
  509. [18:32:07] <Ronnos> :)
  510. [18:32:08] <Baristo> So much more straightforward than RHTML. :)
  511. [18:32:15] <Ronnos> it's great to be in love :)
  512. [18:32:18] <Baristo> Haha
  513. [18:32:38] <Baristo> I'm more in love with our planned community. I need to be! :D
  514. [18:32:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12675 * RobCrowther * (+102) New Examples -
  515. [18:33:03] <Ronnos> haha
  516. [18:33:26] <Baristo> I'm sure we'll be doing some closed beta testing in a couple months so we'll be sure to keep the MT crowd up to speed. :)
  517. [18:33:52] <Ronnos> :)
  518. [18:35:47] <Ronnos> when do you 2 start?
  519. [18:35:48] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  520. [18:36:10] <Baristo> Yesterday. Hehe
  521. [18:36:34] <Ronnos> why didn't you told us the day before yesterday???
  522. [18:37:09] <Baristo> Hmm... good question. :)
  523. [18:37:19] <Ronnos> well, keep us informed :)
  524. [18:37:50] <Baristo> Definitely. This weekend we're hammering out business details and such. Then starts the frameworking and early teaser site. :)
  525. [18:38:24] <Ronnos> is there a name for the community?
  526. [18:38:53] <Baristo> We haven't settled 100% on the name yet, but we're about 95% sure. :)
  527. [18:39:26] <Ronnos> :)
  528. [18:39:47] <Baristo> We're also deciding on if we need a separate "Doing business as" name for ourselves, or if we're just going to use our site name as our partnership.
  529. [18:40:51] <Baristo> While the former allows for easy recognition, that could lead to future site plan issues when building them out.
  530. [18:41:18] <Ronnos> tur
  531. [18:41:20] <Ronnos> tru
  532. [18:41:37] <Baristo> Site X by Company X => Site Y by Company X, makes for confusing situations. :)
  533. [18:42:00] <Baristo> I'd rather be Company Z making sites X and Y. :)
  534. [18:42:32] <Ronnos> tru, but don't put an X on your hCard, that will be confusing too ;)
  535. [18:42:53] <Baristo> Exactly.
  536. [18:42:57] <Baristo> Only Z.
  537. [18:42:59] <Baristo> :)
  538. [18:43:11] <Baristo> Company Z, have a site for company Z as well.
  539. [18:43:39] <Baristo> Just a one page "info" page with a link to site X. and a quick blurb about the two of us. haha
  540. [18:43:48] <Ronnos> well, that's a lot of work, better start the day before tomorrow!
  541. [18:43:51] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  542. [18:44:28] <Baristo> Seriously!
  543. [18:44:38] <Baristo> I should have gotten this done -24 hours ago!
  544. [18:44:51] <Baristo> Wait, that means tomorrow.
  545. [18:44:55] <Baristo> It was a late night.
  546. [18:44:56] <Baristo> haha
  547. [18:46:59] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  548. [18:47:05] <Baristo> Coming up with a company name though will take a bit longer than our community name. The community name was naturally easy. :)
  549. [18:48:34] * evanpro_ (n=evanpro@207.134.56.158) has joined #microformats
  550. [18:48:47] * evanpro_ (n=evanpro@207.134.56.158) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  551. [18:49:07] <Baristo> What sort of work do you engage in Ronnos?
  552. [18:49:35] <Ronnos> well, i don't think being a student is really working ^^
  553. [18:49:41] <Ronnos> but hey, at least i try :P
  554. [18:50:26] <Baristo> Hehe, I was one of those for way too many years. Finally graduated last June.
  555. [18:50:48] <Ronnos> but i started as a programmer like person, and now i'm trying to be more like a User Interface / Interaction kind of guy
  556. [18:51:29] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd083.rhi.hi.is) Quit ("off to find some food")
  557. [18:51:29] <Ronnos> so, maybe that's why i like microformats :)
  558. [18:51:41] <Ronnos> it's in the code, but for the user :)
  559. [18:52:12] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  560. [18:52:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  561. [18:52:42] <Baristo> Yeah it's great stuff. I did my degree in HCI and I would have loved to know about MF in college.
  562. [18:53:03] <Baristo> I'd love to work towards a MSIM (MS in Information Management) and do a thesis on MF.
  563. [18:53:14] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
  564. [18:53:28] <Ronnos> well, i've read that somebody's going to publish a book about them, comming out around march
  565. [18:53:39] <Ronnos> \o/
  566. [18:54:11] <Baristo> Great!
  567. [18:54:57] <Ronnos> jup
  568. [18:55:15] <Baristo> I wish I was in San Fran, I would have loved to attend the dinner last night.
  569. [18:55:53] <Ronnos> lol, i'm in Holland, no MF conferences or meetings up here :)
  570. [18:56:19] <Baristo> Hehe. But you have Europe! I definitely see myself living their someday, if not the San Fran bay area.
  571. [18:56:48] <Ronnos> :)
  572. [18:57:58] <Ronnos> i really love the fact that there are comming tools available so that people can start using MF's
  573. [18:59:02] <Ronnos> implementing is one thing, getting people to start using them is something different :)
  574. [19:00:18] <Baristo> Yeah. I figure with our community site, get everything in place and ready for the revolution. :)
  575. [19:00:53] * nstrich (n=nostrich@host81-132-107-205.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  576. [19:00:54] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host81-132-107-205.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  577. [19:01:00] * markp (n=chatzill@adsl-150-136-228.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  578. [19:03:58] * gsnedders hates the term "MF" - it's not megaformats.
  579. [19:04:32] <mkaply> monkinetic: duplicate removal without sorting. Sweet. (I wasn't sure if people wanted things sorted)
  580. [19:05:53] <Ronnos> there is no microsign on my keyboard gsnedders
  581. [19:05:54] <Ronnos> :(
  582. [19:06:09] <gsnedders> it's not a sign, it's a greek letter
  583. [19:06:14] <Ronnos> lol
  584. [19:06:27] <Baristo> Okay gsnedders mF. :)
  585. [19:06:37] <Ronnos> well, i don't have a greek keyboard either :P
  586. [19:06:45] <gsnedders> it's not miniformats either
  587. [19:06:51] <gsnedders> *milliformat
  588. [19:06:57] <gsnedders> *milliformats
  589. [19:07:07] <Baristo> Alright alright. You're a tough cookie.
  590. [19:07:18] * Baristo looks around for his micro symbol.
  591. [19:07:31] <gsnedders> µF
  592. [19:07:31] <Ronnos> it's not a symbol
  593. [19:07:35] <Ronnos> it's a greek letter
  594. [19:07:37] <Ronnos> :)
  595. [19:07:37] <gsnedders> it's Mu!
  596. [19:07:45] <Baristo> µF
  597. [19:07:51] <gsnedders> 12th letter of the greek alphabet
  598. [19:08:01] <Baristo> Yeah, that one gsnedders.
  599. [19:08:02] <Baristo> :)
  600. [19:08:16] <Baristo> I had to copy and paste it, not on my Mac. :(
  601. [19:08:34] <Baristo> And I'm horrible with alt-key combos.
  602. [19:08:52] <monkinetic> mkaply: most excellent
  603. [19:08:54] <gsnedders> it's alt+m on OS X
  604. [19:09:57] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  605. [19:09:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  606. [19:10:17] <gsnedders> but I've kinda dragged us offtopic
  607. [19:11:40] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  608. [19:12:59] <Baristo> :)
  609. [19:13:01] <Baristo> No worries. :)
  610. [19:27:19] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  611. [19:28:10] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  612. [19:29:09] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12676 * Tantek * (-668) updated for post event
  613. [19:29:21] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  614. [19:29:42] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  615. [19:29:55] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  616. [19:31:11] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@68.39.65.171) has joined #microformats
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  620. [19:49:36] <mkaply> tantek: are you doing the microformats talk at SXSW?
  621. [19:51:33] <tantek> yes
  622. [19:51:54] * mkaply ponders asking to go to SXSW niteractive
  623. [19:53:00] * JMulder_ (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) has joined #microformats
  624. [19:53:06] <evanpro> mkaply: you don't have to ask permission
  625. [19:53:09] <evanpro> you can just go
  626. [19:53:16] <mkaply> evanpro: I want IBM to pay for it :)
  627. [19:53:20] <evanpro> B-)
  628. [19:53:45] <evanpro> Ask if you can go to the film, music, _and_ interactive conferences
  629. [19:54:05] <evanpro> Then, when they call you crazy, _just_ going to SxSWi is a reasonable fallback position
  630. [19:54:11] * markp (n=chatzill@adsl-150-136-228.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  631. [19:54:17] * Atamido went to SXSW once with Xiph, but hasn't been back since.
  632. [19:54:33] <Atamido> Funny, because I only live a few miles from the convention center. :P
  633. [19:54:42] <evanpro> Nice
  634. [19:54:54] <Atamido> I have a few quick questions about hCard.
  635. [19:55:49] <Atamido> Well, more specifically about hcard, Brian's X2V, and Outlook.
  636. [19:56:14] <Atamido> The page in question is here: http://portal.beecavetexas.com/maps.php?method=details&cat=2&loc=2
  637. [19:57:32] <Atamido> Brian's tool outputs "NAME:The City of Bee Cave\, Texas ", is this part of the vCard's content or the header?
  638. [19:58:20] <mkaply> Atamido: That's the title of the page
  639. [19:58:24] <mkaply> in the header
  640. [19:58:33] <Atamido> It also outputs "N;CHARSET=utf-8:;;;;" Shouldn't it be copying the FN information into the N if N is not explicitly defined?
  641. [19:58:45] <mkaply> nope, it's a business, so there isn't an N
  642. [19:59:05] <Atamido> Heh, Outlook copies it to the N.
  643. [19:59:13] * mkaply tries with Operator
  644. [19:59:29] <Atamido> There is a semicolon after ORG, but not FN, does that matter?
  645. [20:01:03] <mkaply> Atamido: that's because org can be two things - org name;org unit
  646. [20:01:15] <mkaply> if you only have name, it gets passed as orgname;
  647. [20:01:20] <mkaply> org unit is blank
  648. [20:01:38] <Atamido> The URL field is copied into Outlook's URL;HOME:, which is not displayed at all in Outlook. The "Web page address:" box in Outlook is copied to "URL;WORK:". Is there a way to state URL;WORK: in hCard?
  649. [20:03:21] * mkaply needs brian for that question
  650. [20:03:35] <mkaply> I didn't realize there was a way to distinguise WORK and HOME URLs in a VCF
  651. [20:03:53] <mkaply> that means there should be a "type" for URLs?
  652. [20:03:57] <mkaply> tantek?
  653. [20:04:57] <mkaply> Aramido: You also should mark the adr type as work
  654. [20:10:07] <Atamido> It doesn't look like the RFC includes a "type" for URL.
  655. [20:10:25] <Atamido> What other fields are there for ADR?
  656. [20:10:46] <Atamido> What is with the two semi-colors?
  657. [20:11:23] <mkaply> You could have given country
  658. [20:11:45] <mkaply> don't worry about the blank semicolons. That's just a formatting thing internally
  659. [20:12:06] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  660. [20:12:06] * JMulder_ is now known as JMulder
  661. [20:12:18] <Atamido> So no extra fields before the street address?
  662. [20:14:27] <mkaply> post office box and extended address - they aren't needed in your case
  663. [20:15:11] <tantek> mkaply - I'm out to lunch bbiab
  664. [20:15:19] <mkaply> tantek: no prob
  665. [20:16:19] <Atamido> http://pastebin.ca/321853
  666. [20:16:37] * markp (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-e18db2c65cb5a9d1) has joined #microformats
  667. [20:17:50] <Atamido> Oh, and the phone number disappears in Outlook.
  668. [20:19:02] <mkaply> atamido: yeah. I saw that. I'm not sure why
  669. [20:19:15] <mkaply> Atamido: i would try adding a type
  670. [20:19:24] <Atamido> Outlook uses "TEL;WORK;VOICE:(512) 263-0528"
  671. [20:20:24] <mkaply> that but TEL: should work as well
  672. [20:20:50] * Atamido wonders how Outlook manages to not implode.
  673. [20:21:59] <mkaply> I can fix that in Operator
  674. [20:22:04] <mkaply> We'll have to tell Brian for X2V
  675. [20:22:35] <Baristo> Any of you fine folk here use µF with Haml?
  676. [20:23:07] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]")
  677. [20:26:42] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  678. [20:26:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  679. [20:26:55] <drewinthehead> greetings
  680. [20:27:11] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
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  682. [20:28:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  683. [20:28:35] <Baristo> Hi there drewinthehead.
  684. [20:29:05] <mkaply> drewinthehead: So did I miss any functionality you wanted in Operator?
  685. [20:30:02] <drewinthehead> to be honest I've not looked at it in a while mkaply
  686. [20:31:12] <drewinthehead> brb
  687. [20:31:15] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  688. [20:31:50] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  689. [20:31:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  690. [20:33:18] <Baristo> drewinthehead: Have you done and work with Haml and mf?
  691. [20:33:34] <drewinthehead> haml? no
  692. [20:34:46] <Baristo> Righto. I'm going to be using Haml for an upcoming community site and was wondering if mf had any integration issues with it.
  693. [20:34:50] <drewinthehead> I've never used haml. It seems like an abstraction on top of an abstraction.
  694. [20:35:04] <Baristo> Heh. :)
  695. [20:35:18] <Baristo> XHTML is an abstraction? :)
  696. [20:35:41] <drewinthehead> Of sorts, yes
  697. [20:36:08] <Baristo> What's your take on it? I'm definitely curious. :)
  698. [20:36:20] <KevinMarks> whats haml? You mean yaml?
  699. [20:36:32] <drewinthehead> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haml
  700. [20:37:01] <drewinthehead> it's a method of describing xhtml
  701. [20:37:30] <KevinMarks> looks like nevow
  702. [20:37:35] <Atamido> I tried adding type work to TEL and ADR, but it doesn't seem to have been picked up by X2V. Am I doing it right? http://portal.beecavetexas.com/maps.php?method=details&cat=2&loc=2
  703. [20:37:39] <drewinthehead> looks like crap ;)
  704. [20:38:12] <drewinthehead> i'll take a look, Atamido ('crap' comment not aimed at you!)
  705. [20:38:12] <csarven> so what are the advantages?
  706. [20:38:17] <csarven> i was looking at it this morning
  707. [20:38:25] <Atamido> :P
  708. [20:38:46] <Baristo> drewinthehead: I'm mostly interested in Haml as an alternative to RHTML templating.
  709. [20:39:03] <KevinMarks> http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/
  710. [20:39:09] <Baristo> In day-to-day page publishing, I'd never use Haml. :)
  711. [20:39:24] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  713. [20:39:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  714. [20:39:49] <Baristo> Ah hey there KevinMarks. How was the dinner?
  715. [20:39:49] <drewinthehead> Atamido: you have 'address' instead of 'adr'
  716. [20:40:04] <drewinthehead> wait, no you don't :)
  717. [20:40:17] <Atamido> Oops, looks like TYPE isn't a child of ADR.
  718. [20:40:22] <KevinMarks> I missed most fo the dinner due to server wrangling, but had some nice chats over drinks afterwards
  719. [20:40:54] <drewinthehead> for TEL, Atamido, you need to have TEL as a parent of TYPE and VALUE
  720. [20:41:06] <Baristo> Great!
  721. [20:41:12] <Atamido> I need VALUE?
  722. [20:41:18] <Baristo> When are you folks doing something in Seattle KevinMarks? :)
  723. [20:41:22] <drewinthehead> if you use TYPE, yes
  724. [20:41:43] <drewinthehead> you can do just <span class="tel">1233456778</span>
  725. [20:42:19] <drewinthehead> or <span class="tel"><span class="type">Fax</span>: <span class="value">1234567889</span></span>
  726. [20:42:45] <drewinthehead> so if you want to use a TYPE, you need to pair it with VALUE, both inside of TEL
  727. [20:42:53] <mkaply> drewinthehead: It appears that outlook rejects TEL:512-551-1212 without a type
  728. [20:43:08] <mkaply> at least outlook 2003
  729. [20:43:18] <drewinthehead> people still use outlook? ;)
  730. [20:43:57] <drewinthehead> I dunno though, I'm not too concerned with how a given piece of software deals with VCARDs
  731. [20:44:05] <drewinthehead> useful tip though
  732. [20:44:11] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  733. [20:44:21] <drewinthehead> brb - needed in the kitchen!
  734. [20:45:11] <Atamido> Okay, how about now?
  735. [20:46:13] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  736. [20:46:57] <mkaply> Atamido: type is still wrong
  737. [20:47:23] <mkaply> hmm
  738. [20:47:50] <mkaply> basically your type isn't displayable, so you want a type but nothing on the screen. hold on
  739. [20:48:16] <Atamido> The examples say you can use title=""
  740. [20:48:26] <Atamido> But it doesn't seem to get picked up.
  741. [20:49:30] <mkaply> title only works for an abbr
  742. [20:49:30] <mkaply> like
  743. [20:49:31] <mkaply> <abbr class="type" title="work">Address:</abbr>
  744. [20:49:35] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  745. [20:49:56] <Atamido> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.2.1_ADR_Type_Definition
  746. [20:50:06] <Atamido> Moo.
  747. [20:50:17] <Atamido> You're right.
  748. [20:50:19] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  749. [20:50:25] <mkaply> you could also add something like this (kind of ugly)
  750. [20:50:26] <mkaply> <img class="type" alt="work">
  751. [20:50:37] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  752. [20:50:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  753. [20:50:41] <mkaply> and take the class="type" away from the other address
  754. [20:51:13] <mkaply> Unfortunately, it's difficult to do a non visible element in this case and keep it symantically correct
  755. [20:51:18] <Atamido> <span class="type" style="display:none;">work</span>
  756. [20:51:37] <mkaply> Yes, that will work as well. But then you will start the "should microformat stuff be hidden" debat
  757. [20:51:40] <mkaply> :)
  758. [20:51:57] * Atamido hopes tantek doesn't notice.
  759. [20:55:52] <Atamido> Okay, I changed them to ABBR and now it seems to work.
  760. [20:55:54] <mkaply> I'm not a big fan of the abbr pattern simply because I end up with underlind stuff in my content
  761. [20:55:59] <mkaply> but that's just me
  762. [20:56:12] <kingryan> abbr { outline: none}
  763. [20:56:36] <Atamido> What is with the "=0D=0A" in this? "LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:12400 Hwy 71 West=0D=0ABee Cave, Tx 78736"
  764. [20:58:34] * lhalff (n=lhalff@218.185.75.132) has joined #microformats
  765. [20:58:55] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  766. [20:59:27] <Atamido> OGM, Outlook 2003 actually adds in Carriage Return and Line Feed into the address instead of seperating out the city, state, zip.
  767. [20:59:36] <Atamido> Bad Outlook.
  768. [20:59:52] * Atamido slaps Outlook around some with a trout.
  769. [21:00:18] <mkaply> bleah
  770. [21:00:50] <mkaply> Atamido: I would definitely use that CSS kingryan posted to remove the decoration from the ABBR tag
  771. [21:00:55] <mkaply> Thjat would make the page look cleaner
  772. [21:00:58] <mkaply> also Tx->TX
  773. [21:01:25] * lhalff (n=lhalff@218.185.75.132) Quit (Client Quit)
  774. [21:01:26] <mkaply> Bee Cave Police Cars look just like Leander!
  775. [21:01:30] <Atamido> Meh, I'm no page designer. I don't think it will look good no matter what i do to it.
  776. [21:01:35] * lhalff (n=lhalff@218.185.75.132) has joined #microformats
  777. [21:01:39] <kingryan> or you can scope the CSS: .vcard abbr, .vevent abbr, ... {outline: none}
  778. [21:01:55] * lhalff (n=lhalff@218.185.75.132) Quit (Client Quit)
  779. [21:02:37] <Atamido> mkaply: Shhhh! Don't tell anyone that we just copy everyone elses designs for our PD. (Also, all form, documentation, policies, etc for our PD were lifted from other police departments.) :P
  780. [21:03:36] <mkaply> Atamido: seriosly
  781. [21:03:42] <mkaply> http://www.ci.leander.tx.us/images/policecar.jpg
  782. [21:07:25] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  783. [21:08:53] <Atamido> List of Outlook irregularities:
  784. [21:08:54] <Atamido> 1. Copies FN into N
  785. [21:08:56] <Atamido> 2. Drops TEL without TYPE
  786. [21:08:58] <Atamido> 3. TEL;TYPE=work: is changed to TEL;WORK;VOICE:
  787. [21:08:59] <Atamido> 4. URL is changed to URL;HOME: and is not visible anywhere normally in Outlook.
  788. [21:09:01] <Atamido> 5. ADR is changed to ADR;POSTAL:
  789. [21:09:02] <Atamido> 6. ADR is copied to LABEL;POSTAL;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE: with city/state/zip changed to use carriage return and comma seperation.
  790. [21:09:04] <Atamido> 7. Drops GEO:
  791. [21:09:10] <Atamido> mkaply: You live in Leander?
  792. [21:09:19] <kingryan> Atamido: please document on http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations
  793. [21:09:22] <mkaply> Atamido: yep
  794. [21:09:33] <Atamido> mkaply: Are you a teacher?
  795. [21:10:03] <mkaply> Atamido: nope, I work for IBM
  796. [21:12:32] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@c-1e20e353.1050-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #microformats
  797. [21:12:40] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  798. [21:13:14] * Atamido seems to remember a teacher in leander asking about mf.
  799. [21:19:30] <tantek> Atamido - please be very specific about which *version* of Outlook on which operating system *version* as well in your documentation.
  800. [21:19:33] <kingryan> any mailman experts in here?
  801. [21:20:12] <Baristo> Not here kingryan, sorry. :(
  802. [21:21:09] * tantek chastises Atamido for use of display:none on semantic information.
  803. [21:21:28] * kingryan is trying to figure out how to show/hide lists on http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo
  804. [21:21:59] <Baristo> tantek: There isn't much info on Haml and mf usage. Would you need/like a wiki section for it?
  805. [21:22:07] <Atamido> tantek: I ended up using ABBR, except on GEO where that information is really just for the JavaScript and doesn't need to be user visible anyway. :)
  806. [21:24:12] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  807. [21:24:23] <KevinMarks> if it's just fro javascript, why not use JSON - declare it as a script variable
  808. [21:26:41] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Connection timed out)
  809. [21:26:59] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  810. [21:28:06] <Atamido> KevinMarks: Because it might be useful to someone's vCard?
  811. [21:28:59] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  812. [21:34:24] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  813. [21:35:59] * mkaply finally remembered where title is used besides abbr
  814. [21:36:40] <mkaply> ok, so everyone keeps saying that the only thing that uses title is <abbr title="foo">bar</abbr>
  815. [21:36:52] <mkaply> but xfolk uses title= for an alternate text in a link
  816. [21:37:38] <mkaply> <A class="taggedlink" rel="nofollow" title="alternate title" href="http://www.cosmeticsurgery.ws/reconstructive_surgery/plastic_surgery/09/eyelid-scrub-in-manhattan/">Eyelid Scrub in Manhattan</A></DIV>
  817. [21:38:59] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12677 * Atamido * (+952) Microsoft Outlook -
  818. [21:39:16] <kingryan> thanks Atamido
  819. [21:39:35] <Atamido> http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook_2003
  820. [21:39:38] * markp (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-e18db2c65cb5a9d1) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  821. [21:39:44] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
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  823. [21:40:13] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  824. [21:41:51] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-074-229-245-180.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  825. [21:42:06] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-074-229-245-180.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  826. [21:42:10] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12678 * Atamido * (+45) Microsoft Outlook 2003 -
  827. [21:43:26] * StevieBM (n=StevieBM@dsl-62-3-104-102.zen.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  828. [21:44:57] <mkaply> IS the title attribute only relevant for links in xFolk?
  829. [21:47:16] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12679 * Atamido * (+114) LOGO -
  830. [21:48:22] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12680 * Atamido * (+18) GEO -
  831. [21:49:49] * mkaply wonders where http://de.lirio.us/ went
  832. [21:51:49] <mfbot> [[vcard-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12681 * Atamido * (+66) N - distinction
  833. [21:52:15] <Atamido> All sorts of wonky stuff in Outlook.
  834. [21:52:29] <Atamido> I need to hurry up and get a copy of Outlook 2003.
  835. [21:52:34] <Atamido> *2007
  836. [21:58:15] <mfbot> [[events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-01-18-sf-microformats-dinner&diff=0&oldid=12682 * Tantek * (+111) updates and links
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  845. [22:37:51] * mkaply wishes google would fix their freaking calendar API so adding events works correctly
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