IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[08:05:14] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12732 * ChristopheDucamp * (+342) jamendo should implement several microformats
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[08:34:31] <Baristo> Evening all! Or perhaps morning or afternoon to some. :)
[08:38:36] <pawlik> morning ;>
[08:39:40] <Baristo> Any of you fine folk implementing Haml into your projects?
[08:41:13] <Baristo> If not, what projects are you all working on anyway? :)
[08:42:45] <pawlik> how to get to my girlfriend
[08:42:45] <pawlik> :P
[08:43:10] <Baristo> Hah! I don't know if XFN is THAT powerful. :)
[08:43:27] <pawlik> yeh, trust me it is ;>>
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[12:41:42] <drewinthehead> interesting ... Tails doesn't spot an hentry if it's on the same element as the root of an hCard
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[13:14:52] <mfbot> [[rel-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-examples&diff=0&oldid=12733 * AndyMabbett * (+438) not an attempt to bypass anything
[13:17:16] <drewinthehead> UK peeps: barcamp london signup is open http://barcamp.pbwiki.com/BarCampLondon2
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[14:49:05] * gsnedders quickly finds two issues: he can't legally go in the bar area till 18 (in England and Wales, in Scotland I can); London is a long way away :P
[14:49:55] * pawlik quickly finds one issue: he's from poland :X
[14:51:08] <gsnedders> pawlik: heh. I'm not even old enough to go to it if I lived next door :P
[14:51:28] <pawlik> I am, and? ;)
[14:52:38] <JMulder> Move to The Netherlands. Nobody cares here :p
[14:52:50] * gsnedders feels young even when at school :P
[14:53:37] <pawlik> ;))
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[14:54:14] * gsnedders has been moved up a year, missed a year of school due to illness, missed half of another year due to the same illness, and I'm doin' fine.
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[15:07:24] <monkinetic> hello ufies
[15:12:12] <drewinthehead> hello monkinetic
[15:12:22] <monkinetic> anything of note going on?
[15:12:54] * monkinetic updates operator
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[15:15:23] <drewinthehead> not much at all, monkinetic
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[15:57:39] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=12734 * Christina Hope * (+704) Issues -
[16:09:01] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=12735 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fix "<pre>"
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[16:09:16] <jammie_> hiya,
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[16:32:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=12736 * AndyMabbett * (+518) reply (&use example.com)
[16:34:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=12737 * AndyMabbett * (+62) sign my last
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[16:58:27] <nickshanks> continuing from other channel:
[16:58:33] <nickshanks> "Rel-Tag is one of several MicroFormats. By adding rel="tag" to a hyperlink, a page indicates that the destination of that hyperlink is an author-designated "tag" (or keyword/subject) for the current page. Note that a tag may just refer to a major portion of the current page (i.e. a blog post)"
[16:58:54] <nickshanks> at what point does major become minor?
[16:59:05] <tantek> nickshanks, to summarize the href in a rel-tag link *does* refer to the entire page at that href as defining what the tag means, whereas the presence of the rel-tag hyperlink in context labels that content (i.e. a blog post, hCard, hCalendar event, hReview, etc.) as being "tagged" with that label/category
[17:00:42] <nickshanks> i'm not talking about the href, I am asking how can the scope of a tag be constrained, as i don't see a definitive way other than some fuzzy interpretation looking for <div class="post"> or suchlike
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[17:00:56] <gsnedders> nickshanks: the difference between putting it on <link> and <a>
[17:01:03] <tantek> at what point does major become minor? that sounds like a theoretical question. i'd suggest a concrete example to reason from. and then that's definitely worth a question to the microformats-discuss list.
[17:01:10] <tantek> thanks.
[17:01:16] <gsnedders> (that's my understanding at least, I could be wrong)
[17:01:43] <tantek> gsnedders, putting it on <link> is discouraged anyway since that would be invisible metadata (no better than meta keywords which are useless)
[17:02:07] <gsnedders> it's been ages since I read the rel-tag spec, and I never did so in much detail anyway
[17:02:24] <nickshanks> for example, an index.php with one post on, the page has the same content (and so the tags have the same importance for that page) as the permalink of that post
[17:02:40] <nickshanks> a little later on that index.php now lists 35 posts
[17:03:21] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
[17:03:34] <nickshanks> each having tags. on the permalink pages for each post, the tag is 100% relevant, but on the index page it's not only 100/35 % relevant
[17:03:55] <nickshanks> not only -> now only
[17:05:15] <nickshanks> and a rel-tag processor would need some heuristics to determine where a post begins/ends on such index pages, perhaps to link to that specific fragment
[17:07:50] <nickshanks> displayers of tagged content will get cluttered up with two pages for the same content (unless they are smart enough to cull one)
[17:09:16] <bengee> not heuristics, nickshanks, but a hardcoded list of possible containers to disambiguate the scope of a tag
[17:09:58] <nickshanks> bengee: who decides what handcoded list that is, what if it needs amending later?
[17:10:26] <nickshanks> that smacks of doctype sniffing to me, a workaround/hack rather than a solution
[17:10:40] <bengee> the mf specs have a "disambiguation rules" section, I think
[17:11:19] <nickshanks> i can't see anything on http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag
[17:13:59] <bengee> this stuff is the only flaw I could identify in MFs (compared to eRDF for example) so far but it's clearly a painful one as a mf parser has to know sort of all formats, i.e. the syntax rules are in flux :(
[17:14:47] <nickshanks> the only way i can see of disambiguating it is to have a tag associated with an enclosing <article> element
[17:15:04] <nickshanks> which sadly doesn't exist yet
[17:15:41] <tantek> there is no need to do the disambiguation because regardless of the scope used, the rel-tag is still a correct semantic
[17:15:57] <tantek> it is essentially simply saying, something on this page has the tag of whatever
[17:16:01] <tantek> that semantic is correct regardless
[17:16:15] <tantek> of course a more precise semantic can be inferred if the parser supports more microformats
[17:16:20] <tantek> but that is always the case
[17:17:43] <bengee> yeah, right
[17:17:55] * Cloud (n=Cloud@deri-wg1-2.nuigalway.ie) Quit ()
[17:19:32] <nickshanks> hmm, i think of tags as saying "this resource concerns x" rather than "something within this resource concerns x"
[17:20:47] <nickshanks> as a tag indexer would associate the URL of the resource with the tag
[17:21:00] <bengee> looks like rel-tag per se doesn't give you this granularity
[17:21:37] <bengee> a hReview parser however could try to identify review tags, though, etc.
[17:25:42] <nickshanks> in short, do you think it would be a good idea to advise against including tags on a blog front page, only on the permalink pages?
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[17:28:32] <bengee> I've put them on my channel views as well, but my parser supports the disambiguation/scope detection stuff
[17:28:58] <tantek> "this resource contains x" and "something within this resource concerns x" are the same semantic
[17:29:20] <tantek> look at books for example with keywords in the front
[17:29:40] <tantek> it's the same semantic as tags
[17:29:50] <tantek> even though not every chapter may be about every keyword
[17:32:02] <nickshanks> there's no means to determine if a keyword concerns 95% or 5% of the page though
[17:32:09] <nickshanks> which i think is important
[17:32:17] <nickshanks> (maybe i'm wrong)
[17:32:36] <tantek> it is only as important as you want to spend time on
[17:33:01] <tantek> the more important you think it is for your specific application, the more microformats you should support parsing and thus determining the finer granularity thereof
[17:33:05] <nickshanks> but for people using tags to find information, they don't want to wade through unrelated stuff
[17:33:21] <tantek> you don't see many books where each chapter is individually tagged do you?
[17:33:30] <tantek> so it must not be *that* important to most people
[17:33:35] * jammie_ wonders into the room,
[17:33:44] <tantek> the market determines how important (or not) it is
[17:33:58] <nickshanks> i don't see books that are tagged, but lots of scientific papers
[17:34:07] <tantek> right, there is a spectrum
[17:34:09] <tantek> that's the point
[17:34:21] <nickshanks> and they have 2-5 tags and usually they concern the whole paper
[17:34:30] <jammie_> most webpages (now) are not scietific papers,
[17:34:31] <tantek> and how many of them tag each page?
[17:34:37] <nickshanks> none
[17:34:39] <tantek> each page of each scientific paper
[17:34:42] <tantek> my point exactly
[17:34:52] <tantek> so clearly a super-fine granularity is not something that most consider that important
[17:34:55] <tantek> but some might
[17:35:00] <tantek> and they can do more parsing accordingly
[17:35:27] <pawlik> tantek: i've heard your speech at carsonworkshops, greate job I must admit. ;)
[17:35:42] <jammie_> tantek: can i ask you a question regarding pharseing?
[17:36:19] <tantek> fwiw - most books, on the copyright page near the front where they also give the ISBN number, have a section like
[17:36:35] <tantek> 1. subject A. 2. subject B. 3. subject C
[17:36:37] <tantek> etc.
[17:36:39] <tantek> most books are "tagged" as such
[17:36:50] <nickshanks> ok, i don't read those pages :)
[17:37:10] <tantek> nickshanks - yes, they are equivalent to the <head> tag and <meta> keywords :)
[17:37:15] <tantek> most people don't read them :)
[17:37:18] <tantek> pawlik - thanks for your kind words!
[17:37:38] <pawlik> np, it's just pure truth
[17:37:42] <tantek> jammie_ - go ahead and ask question here in the channel - I have to run for now, but hopefully someone will be able to answer them.
[17:37:48] <jammie_> i have seen them on andy budds books,
[17:37:53] <jammie_> thanks,
[17:38:07] <jammie_> I have been playing with getting hCards to a CSV file for gmail.
[17:38:12] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
[17:38:18] <nickshanks> tantek: i see blogs as more like journals than books - they contain lots of separate pieces each being individually tagged
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[17:38:42] <jammie_> I have now had some succsesss and i was wondering what the next step way
[17:39:25] <nickshanks> you wouldn't tag the magazine Science with thousands of tags to indicate every subject it has contained
[17:39:33] <nickshanks> which is what idex pages with lots of tags do
[17:39:58] <jammie_> however, the science site would like a thousand tags, and sub tags,
[17:40:05] <jammie_> main tag: biology
[17:40:06] <nickshanks> you would try to refine it down to at least each issue
[17:40:10] <jammie_> sub tag DNA
[17:40:33] <jammie_> sub tag Neclotide structure
[17:40:48] <nickshanks> and if it were online, each article could be hyperlinked to
[17:40:59] <jammie_> sub tag Duo Bonding and Emerating: for example.
[17:41:04] <jammie_> yeah, that does make sense,
[17:42:15] <nickshanks> my point being which rel-tag defined as it is, http://www.sciencemag.org/ could have every conceivable tag applied to it
[17:42:22] <nickshanks> that specific URL
[17:42:34] <jammie_> true,
[17:42:43] <jammie_> however, that the homepage,
[17:43:08] <jammie_> so, instead i would only tag it as a science, magazine, journals (if they have them) ect
[17:43:19] <jammie_> then, when navagating to each page then be more specific,
[17:43:23] <nickshanks> i ask that if a resource links to the same content or an expansion of that content (more… link) then the tags should be *moved* onto that page, not *copied*
[17:43:49] <jammie_> not sure, brb
[17:44:38] <jammie_> sorry, back,
[17:44:46] <jammie_> lets say, i am on my blog,
[17:45:05] <jammie_> and i wish to link to the autims site i go to aot,
[17:45:23] <jammie_> I would be happy to tag, my site (and thus the link) to autism.
[17:45:39] <jammie_> but, not, wrongplanet - name of the site
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[17:47:21] <jammie_> On my hCard, i have the tag "autistic" but, that does not mean i would like myself link with "cure Autism now"
[17:48:17] <jammie_> although, under somthing like microformats search ect, i might in nthe same search?
[17:48:24] <jammie_> does that explain what i mean?
[17:48:28] <Ronnos> isn't there an iso standard that can be usefull while tagging?
[17:48:43] <jammie_> not sure Ronnos
[17:48:44] <Ronnos> i've read about some standards in a Information Architecture book
[17:48:53] <Ronnos> like they do in the library
[17:49:01] <jammie_> Ronnos: trouble is the web is a non flat structure,
[17:49:08] <jammie_> most libery are flat struterd.
[17:49:24] <Ronnos> but, webcontent can be categorized too
[17:49:28] <jammie_> yes,
[17:49:37] <nickshanks> jammie_: i didn't really understand that one, sorry
[17:49:49] <jammie_> it is, but it a different I thing
[17:49:53] <jammie_> IA thing rather,
[17:50:09] <jammie_> in a lib, you could search foor books on "golf"
[17:50:21] <jammie_> and, if like in the UK, it searchs national liberys
[17:50:48] <jammie_> howerver it doe not find groups to do with golf,
[17:51:18] <jammie_> or would be able to tell you "itself" in the search as a result the words inside the book.
[17:51:34] <jammie_> so, the lebery is flat.
[17:51:46] <jammie_> the web includes that data, therefor it is not flat.
[17:52:20] <jammie_> this is where my study into it ends, we then studeid how books shops keep stock levels undercontrol with statistic.
[17:52:31] <Ronnos> lol
[17:52:55] <jammie_> did you know it is not uncommon to have been "expected" in a bookshop to buy that book even if you were not planning, due to quadratics, and phi....
[17:53:21] * jammie_ stops talking about number before he starts on his favorite intrest prime numbers.
[17:53:33] <jammie_> Does anyone here use gmail?
[17:53:42] * Baristo (n=baristo@68.178.101.38) has joined #microformats
[17:53:43] <Ronnos> :), it's like the Burger King or Mac D, even when you're not hungry, you go in to grab a burger \o/
[17:53:43] <jammie_> and have (or require)
[17:53:49] <jammie_> yeah,
[17:53:59] <jammie_> although, with the book thing, they can get scary,
[17:54:18] <jammie_> a study done in water stones, said nationwide they stocked less than 1% over what they needed.
[17:54:25] <jammie_> over a 3 month period.
[17:54:31] <jammie_> That is phonomonal,
[17:54:57] <nickshanks> wow
[17:55:05] <jammie_> when you consider the maths invilved for how many options,
[17:55:24] <jammie_> you have dual finte and an infinite value calculation,
[17:55:46] <Baristo> Morning all! Or afternoon or evening. :)
[17:55:57] <Ronnos> Evening uphere :)
[17:56:08] <jammie_> IE: how many book are avalible they can source - how many ooks people by at once - and how many possible combinations.
[17:56:30] <Baristo> Ronnos! Hey man! How's it going?
[17:56:40] <jammie_> the likley hood, is no one will buya copy of every book, although using stats and distrbution curves you can find which boooks, and how many somone will buy.
[17:56:44] <jammie_> its awesme.
[17:56:52] <jammie_> hiya Baristo I am new here :d
[17:57:07] <Baristo> jammie_: Hey hey! I remember we talked a couple days ago?
[17:57:11] <Ronnos> Good, zippin' some cofffee
[17:57:13] <jammie_> kewl,
[17:57:20] <jammie_> I have not been here long,
[17:57:43] <Ronnos> planning my next steps into microformats :)
[17:57:45] <jammie_> I have come in to talk about phasing and to be in the company of people who know what XLST is
[17:57:47] <Baristo> Excellent Ronnos. You'll love our little site we're building then. :)
[17:57:48] <jammie_> kewl,
[17:57:54] <Ronnos> haha
[17:57:56] <Ronnos> ;)
[17:58:03] <jammie_> I have just started a big step, my first pharser
[17:58:08] <Baristo> Oh and we finallized the name over the weekend.
[17:58:15] <jammie_> Ronnos: you builing an intro to micrformats site?
[17:59:12] <Ronnos> not really, i'm writting some things in dutch about microformats, and Baristo is getting some things on track for his project, right Baristo?
[17:59:25] <jammie_> ah, kewl,
[17:59:32] * jammie_ is in the middle of writing a guide.
[17:59:43] <jammie_> I am also writing a pharser,
[17:59:45] <Baristo> Definitely. My developer and I have got our Joint Venture Agreement drafted up and we'll be signing this week.
[17:59:59] <jammie_> kewl, so you are going in legally then?
[18:00:06] <Baristo> The "work" starts in February after he wraps up some prior commitement
[18:00:07] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
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[18:00:10] <Ronnos> what kind of microformats are you going to use?
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[18:00:47] <Baristo> Yeah jammie_. We'll, just a JVA for starters, then when the site launches and starts to ramp up, we'll be going into a LP.
[18:00:54] <jammie_> Baristo: sounds like great news,
[18:01:02] <jammie_> I havent done anything like that
[18:01:05] <Baristo> Yeah we're making good headway.
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[18:01:14] <jammie_> I am also not old enough to legally sign a contract,
[18:01:23] <jammie_> which is ironic,
[18:01:32] <Baristo> Hehe
[18:01:34] <pawlik> ;0)))
[18:01:41] * jammie_ is 17 years old.
[18:02:03] <jammie_> I am just uploading and sortin the DNS for my hCard to Gmail converter,
[18:02:05] <pawlik> so you're not allowed to be here ;)
[18:02:10] <jammie_> sorting rather,
[18:02:16] <jammie_> am i not?
[18:02:23] <pawlik> just kidding ;)
[18:02:28] <jammie_> ah,
[18:02:30] <Ronnos> did you show ur id at the entrance?
[18:02:37] <Ronnos> :)
[18:02:42] <jammie_> I have an ID to say i am 17 years old.
[18:02:56] <Ronnos> ah, the gatekeeper must be sleeping
[18:03:13] <jammie_> I also have an Autism passport, and a buissness card!
[18:03:32] <Ronnos> well, i'm going to prepare a presentation about RIA's, see ya!
[18:03:35] * jammie_ romves the sleep gass canister, and quietilly hides it
[18:03:39] <jammie_> have fun,
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[18:15:50] <Baristo> Hey sorry, had our morning stand-up.
[18:15:58] <Baristo> Back now for the rest of the day. :)
[18:16:09] <pawlik> day? it's 7 pm :)
[18:16:19] <pawlik> magic of time zones
[18:16:20] <pawlik> ];>
[18:16:47] <Baristo> Seriously.
[18:16:49] <Baristo> :)
[18:16:53] <Baristo> 10am here.
[18:17:14] <mfbot> [[tests-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=tests-issues&diff=0&oldid=12738 * RyanKing * (+302) added test issue from mf-dev email by mike sammuel
[18:18:25] <mfbot> [[tests-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=tests-issues&diff=0&oldid=12739 * RyanKing * (+108) another from mike
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[18:21:09] <nickshanks> .j #xml
[18:21:25] <pawlik> :>
[18:22:25] <nickshanks> :P i missed the /
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[18:31:47] <mfbot> [[vote-links-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links-faq&diff=0&oldid=12740 * RyanKing * (+88)
[18:32:59] <Baristo> Morning tantek.
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[20:24:57] <factoryjoe> super hot hcalendar: http://etnies.com/extra/calendar/
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[20:37:49] * mkaply was just looking at that. Nice plug for operator here: http://thecolab.com/blog/2007/01/22/etniescom-relaunch/
[20:40:26] <factoryjoe> yup
[20:41:45] <factoryjoe> also: http://www.jasongraphix.com/sandbox/hcard/
[20:42:37] <pawlik> :o
[20:43:17] <mkaply> factoryjoe: That's interesting. One of the things I've been toying with is adding a sidebar so that actions can be performed on multiple microformats at the sametime
[20:43:41] <factoryjoe> and: http://stevenharman.net/blog/archive/2007/01/20/XFN_Microformat__with_Icon_Goodness.aspx
[20:43:51] <factoryjoe> that'd be cool...
[20:43:57] <factoryjoe> draggable date would be nice
[20:44:09] <mkaply> factoryjoe: draggable to where?
[20:44:16] <factoryjoe> i always wanted ad hoc maps and calendars that suck in a visualize microformats
[20:44:22] <factoryjoe> draggable to a sidebar map
[20:44:35] <factoryjoe> you drop it on the map and it locates the address in the hcard
[20:45:36] <mkaply> s/date/data - got it
[20:45:57] <mkaply> I was thinking the other way. Like the sidebar would show all the hcards. YOu could check five of them and then do a group action like export
[20:46:10] <factoryjoe> either way
[20:46:14] <factoryjoe> visualization of the data
[20:46:19] <factoryjoe> like
[20:46:23] <factoryjoe> did you see my mapendar idea?
[20:47:09] <mkaply> reading
[20:48:39] * bear is now known as bear_afk
[20:49:13] <mkaply> interesting
[20:52:32] <factoryjoe> someone implemented the idea
[20:53:01] * shigeta_ (n=shigeta@124x32x114x226.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
[20:53:57] <mkaply> factoryjoe: is it public?
[20:55:56] <factoryjoe> yeah one sec
[20:56:27] <factoryjoe> 30boxes.com/map
[21:00:28] <factoryjoe> check out the link at the bottom
[21:00:35] <factoryjoe> "Map any feed that has location information"
[21:03:54] * jammie_ is back
[21:04:04] <ajturner> factoryjoe - are you referring to GeoRSS, or geoparsing an RSS file?
[21:04:22] * jammie_ clicks the linky and looks.
[21:04:34] <jammie_> does anyone here use gmail,
[21:04:38] <factoryjoe> i do...
[21:04:41] <ajturner> yes
[21:04:43] <factoryjoe> ajturner: not sure
[21:04:56] <factoryjoe> mostly taking any address from an hcard and mapping it
[21:05:04] <jammie_> i have written a pharser to convert hCard to a CSV file for gmail and am looking for testers / contributors,
[21:05:06] <factoryjoe> geo can't be expected in normal hcards
[21:05:16] <factoryjoe> jammie_: you're on a pc, right?
[21:05:32] <jammie_> doesent matter, i have it as a webservuce though a bookmarklet
[21:05:36] <jammie_> yeah, i am on a PC<
[21:05:42] <factoryjoe> on the mac there's AddressBook2CSV
[21:05:46] <factoryjoe> and vCardExplorer
[21:05:55] <jammie_> yeah, it does Vcards,
[21:05:58] <factoryjoe> the latter does hcard/vcard transformations
[21:06:03] <jammie_> I am talking about hCards,
[21:06:18] <jammie_> if works the same as x2v
[21:06:35] <factoryjoe> cool
[21:06:41] <factoryjoe> except outputs as csv?
[21:06:45] <jammie_> you either put the ul after the converter URL, or you click the bookmarklet
[21:06:47] <factoryjoe> can you send directly to gmail?
[21:06:47] <jammie_> yep,
[21:06:52] <jammie_> not yet,
[21:06:53] <ajturner> factoryjoe - btw, I haven't seen anyone *really* implement Mapender
[21:06:59] <factoryjoe> ajturner: you're right
[21:07:04] <factoryjoe> mkaply: you saw my flickr shots?
[21:07:08] <factoryjoe> for mapendar?
[21:07:10] <jammie_> they do not have an API for that
[21:07:15] <factoryjoe> bummer
[21:07:22] <ajturner> it's an incredibly awesome idea, I figured someone was working on it ;)
[21:07:25] <jammie_> i am hoping they add one,
[21:07:36] <factoryjoe> ajturner: i'd like to see simile timeline support hcalendar
[21:07:40] <factoryjoe> i think someone made that possible
[21:07:44] <factoryjoe> hcalendar to json
[21:07:50] <factoryjoe> to simile timeline
[21:07:54] <jammie_> kewl
[21:07:54] <ajturner> I did ical to googleearth ;)
[21:08:01] <ajturner> ical/gcal
[21:08:10] <factoryjoe> we could then scope data based on a visible timeline and plot it on a map
[21:08:12] <factoryjoe> nice
[21:08:25] <jammie_> my converter, uses some of the opensource hcard pharser, and then an open source vcard to CSV
[21:08:52] * jammie_ is proud of his converter, and if going to be putting it on his site soon.
[21:09:32] <mkaply> factoryjoe: saw the shots -c ool
[21:09:45] <jammie_> whats you flickr acount?
[21:09:58] * jammie_ is now known as JamieKnight
[21:10:00] <factoryjoe> factoryjoe
[21:10:02] <factoryjoe> ;)
[21:10:06] <JamieKnight> :D
[21:10:10] <pnhChris> :P
[21:10:12] <factoryjoe> http://flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/tags/mapendar
[21:10:55] <JamieKnight> thanks,
[21:11:11] <ajturner> well, if everyone exported GeoRSS, pass it through Mapufacture, and then just add timeline to the aggregated map there.
[21:12:17] <JamieKnight> i have the XSLT to convert GEO RSS to pretty much anything,
[21:12:43] <JamieKnight> it has a few issues with some things though, its another work in process,
[21:12:45] <ajturner> JamieKnight - really? you have KML<->GeoRSS<->GPX?
[21:12:47] <factoryjoe> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/whats-this-all-about/#stl-timeline
[21:13:00] <factoryjoe> i'd like to map this on to a simile timeline: factoryjoe.com/stream
[21:13:12] <JamieKnight> no, what it does is turn the geoRSS to php varibles.
[21:13:35] <JamieKnight> so, then you could output it to anything using a template, or options system.
[21:13:44] <JamieKnight> i assume that what you meant?
[21:14:10] <JamieKnight> I havenet used it much, but i am open to other converter pharse ideas, i like making them. there fun
[21:16:17] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: does the name alun rowe ring a bell?
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[21:19:58] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-198-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
[21:20:01] <factoryjoe> err, no
[21:20:03] <factoryjoe> should it?
[21:27:39] <JamieKnight> wondering,
[21:27:43] <JamieKnight> he is my boss,
[21:28:44] <ajturner> factoryjoe, what plugin is writing your 'stream'? or is it your own code?
[21:28:55] <JamieKnight> what the XSLT bit?
[21:29:21] <ajturner> is the stream just an XSLT transformation of the RSS?
[21:29:25] <JamieKnight> I have a standard XSLT then i tell it to retun the out put in sections, and assign the section to vars
[21:29:29] <JamieKnight> yeah, pretty much,
[21:29:33] <factoryjoe> it's jeremy kieth's
[21:29:42] <factoryjoe> it outputs as hatom
[21:29:43] <JamieKnight> it has some issue atm, i havent had the time to fix,
[21:29:52] <JamieKnight> no, mine just goes to vars,
[21:30:07] <JamieKnight> doesent output anything but vars,
[21:30:28] <ajturner> url to Jeremy Keith's xslt?
[21:30:54] <JamieKnight> the idea was for somthing i was going to do but didnt, i needed to take lat / long and then caculate the distance for a pigion flyifnf site
[21:31:32] <ajturner> a "pigeon flying site"??
[21:31:39] <factoryjoe> one sec
[21:31:50] <factoryjoe> the problem w/ jeremy's script is that it doesn't do caching
[21:31:57] <ajturner> just thinking you could transform it just as easily to json: http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/examples/cubism/cubism.js to dynamically load for a Simile Timeline
[21:31:58] <factoryjoe> i'd love to do the same w/ simplepie
[21:32:21] <JamieKnight> yeah,
[21:32:25] <JamieKnight> simplepie
[21:32:37] * JamieKnight asks for forgivness, he has had alot going on recently,
[21:33:00] * JamieKnight is moving his site to some new hosting whichhas XSLT support
[21:33:23] * gsnedders jumps up and down! another mention of SimplePie in somewhere where I lurk!
[21:33:49] <ajturner> ah, there is a Simile Timeline WP plugin
[21:34:24] <factoryjoe> that's what's on my blog
[21:34:46] <factoryjoe> http://adactio.com/extras/stream/
[21:34:52] <factoryjoe> http://adactio.com/extras/stream/stream.phps
[21:36:07] <monkinetic> factoryjoe: i'm rewriting stream.php in rails as we speak
[21:36:12] <monkinetic> :-)
[21:36:18] <factoryjoe> oo
[21:36:19] <factoryjoe> haha
[21:36:20] <factoryjoe> nice
[21:36:25] <ajturner> monkinetic - in rails? or ruby?
[21:36:27] <factoryjoe> can you make an options panel?
[21:36:37] <factoryjoe> there was a wordpress plugin made
[21:36:39] <factoryjoe> called lifestream
[21:36:43] <factoryjoe> chris j davis i think
[21:36:46] <factoryjoe> but he abandoned it
[21:36:56] <monkinetic> add sources via the web, and it stores the posts in the database
[21:37:02] <factoryjoe> options for colors, feeds, name...
[21:37:09] <factoryjoe> w/ caching please!
[21:37:13] <monkinetic> eventually i'll limit it
[21:37:24] <monkinetic> factoryjoe: yes, there's going to be a cron job that grabs the content
[21:37:25] <monkinetic> s
[21:37:28] <factoryjoe> oh, and i should be able to add ical, hcal, hatom and so on feeds that are auto-detected
[21:37:29] <monkinetic> and shoves it in mysql
[21:37:36] <factoryjoe> w00t
[21:37:43] <monkinetic> slow down partner
[21:38:15] <monkinetic> factoryjoe: what's that with the uF feeds?
[21:38:19] <monkinetic> what do you want?
[21:38:19] <JamieKnight> sorry, brb
[21:38:44] <factoryjoe> ah
[21:38:45] <factoryjoe> well
[21:39:14] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
[21:39:14] <factoryjoe> to be able to add rss, atom, hatom, ical, hcal, or whatever other feed format that has a permalink, title and date attached to it
[21:39:29] <gsnedders> ical and hcal aren't feels :P
[21:39:30] <gsnedders> *feeds
[21:40:27] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
[21:42:02] <ajturner> gnedders, but they act the same
[21:43:41] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[21:43:52] <mkaply> hmm. That adactio url is a good example of a question I had - should the microformat lists in operator be sorted or not. Actually, I guess I should make it a pref, shouldn't I
[21:44:21] <factoryjoe> no
[21:44:30] <factoryjoe> option-click to organize differently
[21:44:45] <monkinetic> is the adactio stream marked up with uFs? i did not notice
[21:44:45] <factoryjoe> have your default and then shift- or option-click to do alpha
[21:44:49] <factoryjoe> hatom
[21:44:53] <factoryjoe> or
[21:44:53] <factoryjoe> no
[21:44:54] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
[21:44:55] <factoryjoe> hcal?
[21:44:58] <mkaply> gcak
[21:45:00] <mkaply> hcal
[21:45:02] <mkaply> Operator always knows
[21:45:20] <factoryjoe> if you option-click on the apple wifi menubar it will reorganize them by signal strength
[21:45:45] <mkaply> right now I precreate the menu so that might be a little tricky
[21:45:50] * mkaply thinks about that
[21:46:02] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1096625312.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
[21:48:08] * mkaply used to create the menus on mouse down but changed it since it wasn't needed for performance anymore
[21:48:09] * bear_afk is now known as bear
[21:48:23] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-c24d77c8029f94d8) Quit ("Leaving")
[21:59:30] <monkinetic> factoryjoe is making my head 'splode
[22:01:31] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=12741 * Chris Messina * (+201) Adding etnies.
[22:09:34] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[22:10:27] <mfbot> [[micropatterns]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/micropatterns * Chris Messina * (+394)
[22:12:29] <Baristo> Descoping projects is bloody rewarding. I love focusing in on a specific feature instead of bloating an initial site release. :)
[22:15:12] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[22:15:56] * danja (n=danja@80.104.220.104) Quit ()
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[22:26:00] * JamieKnight renter the room with lion
[22:26:06] <bewest> descoping?
[22:26:12] <bewest> wouldn't descoping take away scope?
[22:26:16] <JamieKnight> lowering the scope of the site
[22:26:18] <bewest> thus making it less focused?
[22:26:27] <bewest> scoping would narrow focus
[22:26:29] <JamieKnight> scope, wide scope done more things,
[22:26:48] <bewest> right, so if you scope something, you are narrowing and doing less things
[22:26:52] <bewest> less bloat == more scope
[22:26:54] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
[22:26:56] <JamieKnight> descope,
[22:27:02] <bewest> as a verb
[22:27:04] <JamieKnight> less bloat less scapoe
[22:27:19] <bewest> the better scope is defined, the less bloat there is
[22:27:25] <JamieKnight> negativly proportal
[22:27:25] <Baristo> Hmm... well, whatever the proper term, we're taking away unnecessary first release features and saving them to release at a later date. :)
[22:27:27] <JamieKnight> yes,
[22:27:34] <JamieKnight> :D
[22:27:35] <bewest> :-)
[22:27:38] <JamieKnight> sounds good,
[22:27:45] <JamieKnight> are you intrested in some free help,
[22:27:51] <bewest> that would be defining scope
[22:28:03] * JamieKnight wants to get more involved with things,
[22:28:23] <bewest> more activity in defining scope usually results in a finer, narrower scope, which in turn typically narrows focus and reduces bloat
[22:28:40] <JamieKnight> also, means more time better qaulity functions,
[22:29:07] <Baristo> Right.
[22:29:18] <Baristo> Well JamieKnight, are you a Rails guru? :)
[22:29:37] <JamieKnight> nope,
[22:29:45] <JamieKnight> but, i can learn things very quickly,
[22:29:51] <JamieKnight> and have alot of experience,
[22:30:10] * JamieKnight is good at thinking of routes and methods and polymoorphic design
[22:30:16] <Baristo> We'll be looking for a good number beta testers, I'll be sharing the sign-up link on here in a month or so.
[22:30:27] <JamieKnight> yeah, i would be intrested,
[22:30:47] <JamieKnight> i did alot on polymorphism for my degree, so i would be better at the planning stage,
[22:32:17] <Baristo> Great.
[22:32:23] <Baristo> Ah interesting.
[22:33:02] <JamieKnight> i did quite in depth in the thery behind some of the OOP stuff, and also alot of stuff on parralel algs
[22:33:31] <JamieKnight> my spelling is worse than normal today,
[22:33:35] * danja (n=danja@host104-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
[22:36:06] <Baristo> Hehe no worries. :)
[22:36:27] * JamieKnight is very dyslexic,
[22:36:36] <ajturner> factoryjoe/JamieKnight - RSS->Simile
[22:36:36] <ajturner> http://marchhare.dyndns.org/simile.html
[22:36:43] * JamieKnight also has autism
[22:36:46] <JamieKnight> awesome,
[22:36:55] <ajturner> http://marchhare.dyndns.org/stream.phps
[22:37:03] <JamieKnight> looks kewl,
[22:37:12] <ajturner> obviously needs cleaning
[22:37:21] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-189-099.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
[22:37:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
[22:37:41] <ajturner> but uses Jeremy Keith's stream as a baseline - so you could add whatever other feeds you want
[22:37:50] <JamieKnight> kewl,
[22:37:55] <JamieKnight> hiya tantek
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[22:40:00] <factoryjoe> nice!!
[22:41:01] * Phae (n=phae@80-43-92-137.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
[22:41:22] <tantek> etnies++
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[22:44:38] <tantek> factoryjoe - that micropatterns page is problematic in a number of ways
[22:44:49] <tantek> presentational class names are an anti-pattern
[22:45:18] <factoryjoe> ?
[22:45:23] <factoryjoe> anti-pattern?
[22:45:27] <factoryjoe> they're in use in the wild
[22:45:33] <factoryjoe> in fact, they're all over WP themes
[22:45:41] <factoryjoe> you're not going to remove them from the themes
[22:45:41] <JamieKnight> tantek: what would you estimate as the traffic cost of a hCard to gmail converter,
[22:45:50] <JamieKnight> just ecause they are theme doesent make then right....
[22:45:57] <tantek> factoryjoe - like FONT tags
[22:46:17] <tantek> just because something exists doesn't mean it is a pattern that should be literally emulated
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[22:46:37] <tantek> in fact that's just being a lemming
[22:46:47] <factoryjoe> ok. can you provide a better micropattern example/
[22:46:48] <factoryjoe> ?
[22:46:54] <factoryjoe> that would help w/ image layout in posts?
[22:47:01] <tantek> why do you even need to define a new term?
[22:47:06] <tantek> what problem are you trying to solve?
[22:47:27] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: I think tantek is reffering to classname which describe the layout,
[22:47:38] <JamieKnight> so for exmaple, left content and right content,
[22:47:47] <tantek> factoryjoe, let me make it clearer - "alignleft" is NOT *semantic* XHTML
[22:48:03] <JamieKnight> lets say you redesign, and they no longer are left and right,
[22:48:17] <tantek> why do we need another name for "semantic XHTML"?
[22:48:20] <JamieKnight> should use somthing like mainContent and subContent.
[22:49:01] <factoryjoe> tantek: http://www.plaintxt.org/2007/01/22/special-classes-in-themes/
[22:49:22] <factoryjoe> ?
[22:49:25] <tantek> factoryjoe, the examples in that page are not semantic, nor is there sufficient reason to coin a new term, thus i'm going to delete the contents of that page and redirect it to the "semantic-xhtml" page.
[22:49:26] <factoryjoe> um
[22:49:43] <factoryjoe> you're defeating the goal of the concept
[22:49:51] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12742 * ChristopheDucamp * (+517) minor edits to test hCard
[22:49:58] <factoryjoe> i can rephrase the definition
[22:50:01] <factoryjoe> it wasn't very good anyway
[22:50:04] <tantek> you're defeating the definition of "semantic"
[22:50:21] <factoryjoe> alignleft is presentational
[22:50:23] <tantek> and introducing new terms that mean the same thing dilute a language
[22:50:40] <factoryjoe> the point is to avoid inline styling
[22:50:48] <factoryjoe> by using consistent class names
[22:50:51] <tantek> it's no better
[22:50:57] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12743 * ChristopheDucamp * (-213)
[22:50:59] <factoryjoe> how would you recommend approaching this problem then?
[22:50:59] <JamieKnight> the point is to seperate structure form content.
[22:51:08] <JamieKnight> sorry, stylke form content,
[22:51:09] <tantek> class="alignleft" is no better than align="left"
[22:51:10] <tantek> sorry
[22:51:17] <tantek> you're playing a shell game
[22:51:21] <factoryjoe> you're not solving my problem
[22:51:22] <tantek> you're not solving anything
[22:51:33] <factoryjoe> i want a convenience class
[22:51:38] <tantek> this has nothing to do with structure or content
[22:51:41] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: what si the problem?
[22:51:41] <tantek> this is all presentational
[22:51:52] <JamieKnight> yes, semantic class names,
[22:51:59] <factoryjoe> somethign that will say for this image, use this style: float:left; margin:0.5em 1em 0.5em 0;
[22:52:12] <factoryjoe> but i want it to be universal
[22:52:18] <JamieKnight> why?
[22:52:24] <factoryjoe> so that all my images are treated the same when they're given that class
[22:52:36] <JamieKnight> well, you can use the atribute selector,
[22:52:45] <factoryjoe> and, should i redesign, i can simply update the class and all layout will be fixed
[22:52:46] <JamieKnight> so, for example, all #content img {
[22:52:46] <tantek> precisely
[22:52:49] <factoryjoe> ?!
[22:52:57] <factoryjoe> i don't want ALL images in #content
[22:52:59] <factoryjoe> only certain ones
[22:53:03] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12744 * ChristopheDucamp * (-186)
[22:53:09] <factoryjoe> i want certain ones to be aligned right, others left
[22:53:12] <tantek> and should you redesign, and align the images right, then a class like "alignleft" looks really stupid
[22:53:16] <JamieKnight> okay, what can yo do to tell them apart in the structure,
[22:53:18] <tantek> that's the point of avoiding presentational class names
[22:53:34] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: nothing
[22:53:35] <JamieKnight> for example, is it always below a h1 elemena,t
[22:53:39] <factoryjoe> it's arbitrary
[22:53:43] <factoryjoe> nope
[22:53:49] <factoryjoe> sometimes, sometimes not
[22:53:50] <JamieKnight> can you link me to the page, and i will see what i can do with firebug,
[22:53:52] <tantek> facotryjoe - reread http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-class-names and the articles linked from there
[22:53:54] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12745 * ChristopheDucamp * (+9)
[22:54:11] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: go over my last 2 years of blog posts
[22:54:15] <factoryjoe> factoryjoe.com/blog
[22:54:18] <tantek> you have to come up with a semantic that differentiates them semantically
[22:54:22] <tantek> other than left/right
[22:54:23] <factoryjoe> and, check out every WP install taht uses K2
[22:54:26] <tantek> because that's just presentational again
[22:54:29] <tantek> and you haven't improved everything
[22:54:31] <tantek> anything
[22:54:32] <JamieKnight> well, if you have a template, then there is a possible of consistancy now,
[22:54:40] <factoryjoe> you're not being constructive tantek
[22:55:00] <factoryjoe> i will accept your point that, in terms of "data", presentational classes are useless
[22:55:05] <tantek> i'm pointing out a timewaster in the interest of wasting less time
[22:55:14] <factoryjoe> but in this case i am interested in "classes of appeerance"
[22:55:15] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12746 * ChristopheDucamp * (-14)
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[22:55:24] <factoryjoe> you don't get a monopoly on class na,es
[22:55:25] <factoryjoe> names
[22:55:41] <factoryjoe> tantek: solve my problem
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[22:55:55] <factoryjoe> give me a consistent way to dictate how images appear in blog posts
[22:56:03] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: please can you show me a post with an image you with to be styled.
[22:56:06] <factoryjoe> without resorting to hard-coded inline CSS
[22:56:06] * JMulder (n=me@ip9135c771.speed.planet.nl) Quit ()
[22:56:10] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: one moment
[22:56:15] <JamieKnight> thanks,
[22:56:31] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/01/19/skype-emoticons-cheatsheet/
[22:56:35] <factoryjoe> uses class="center"
[22:56:44] <factoryjoe> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/01/10/mac-mash-pitcocoadevhouse-tomorrow-at-obvious-corp/
[22:56:48] <factoryjoe> uses class="alignright"
[22:56:49] <ajturner> tantek, factoryjoe, would "large_thumbnail" be wrong?
[22:56:56] <ajturner> or "small_thumbnail"
[22:57:02] <factoryjoe> ajturner: how do i determine which side it displays on?
[22:57:04] <tantek> factory joe - note that images in my blog http://tantek.com/ have no such class names and yet have a consistent styling that even works in your BlackBerry browser
[22:57:08] <factoryjoe> sometimes i want left, sometimes right
[22:57:12] <ajturner> so then in your css, you would do #small_thumbnail {align:right}
[22:57:24] <tantek> why?
[22:57:26] <tantek> why sometimes left sometimes right?
[22:57:29] <factoryjoe> ajturner: you're suggesting inline CSS?
[22:57:30] <tantek> until you can answer that question, your problem cannot be solved.
[22:57:39] <factoryjoe> tantek: i'm a designer, i get to say where i want things to go
[22:57:54] <ajturner> factoryjoe - no, I'm saying if you're aligning based on thumbnail size - then use that as the classname, but in your linked-css, refer to the thumbnail size for alignment
[22:57:58] <JamieKnight> that is not inline,
[22:58:16] <mfbot> [[micropatterns]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=micropatterns&diff=0&oldid=12747 * Tantek * (-277) removed presentational class names which are an anti-pattern, please read [[semantic-class-names]]
[22:58:33] <ajturner> factoryjoe - I'm assuming there is some logic to the design, for example, if a thumbnail is >= 300px, make it centered (large_thumbnail)
[22:58:51] <factoryjoe> ajturner: typically, that is correct for centered images
[22:58:52] <factoryjoe> however
[22:59:00] <ajturner> but maybe later you make your blog just a single column, at that point you can then make large_thumnail aligned to the left/right
[22:59:05] <ajturner> without having to change the classname
[22:59:07] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12748 * ChristopheDucamp * (+90)
[22:59:13] <mfbot> [[micropatterns]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=micropatterns&diff=0&oldid=12749 * Tantek * (-89) removed unnecessary creation of new term and redirected to existing term [[semantic-xhtml]] in order to emphasize *semantic*
[22:59:48] <JamieKnight> on you blog, you have the image in the center main body, after contained in and after a consistat p tag
[23:00:01] <ajturner> factoryjoe: right, so I think tantek is just saying not to make the classname indicate layout - but the simpler description of the image, it's a large thumbnail
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[23:00:27] <factoryjoe> i'm still confused about left and right alignement
[23:00:29] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12750 * ChristopheDucamp * (-89)
[23:00:32] <factoryjoe> unless i have to set it in stone
[23:00:46] <factoryjoe> i suppose that's what alignleft and alignright do anyway
[23:00:54] <factoryjoe> but no
[23:00:59] <factoryjoe> see that's where this goes south
[23:01:15] <factoryjoe> you need different margins and padding depending on something is right or left aligned
[23:01:23] <factoryjoe> say i use thumbnail_small
[23:01:27] <factoryjoe> that's fine
[23:01:45] <factoryjoe> but let's say that i don't want padding on the right side of the image if it's aligned on the right
[23:01:54] <tantek> factoryjoe, even thumbnail_a and thumbnail_b would be better than alignleft alignright
[23:01:57] <factoryjoe> so i want margin: 0 0 10px 10px;
[23:02:09] <JamieKnight> .entry-content + p + img { style here defined in external sheeet}
[23:02:10] <tantek> the point is to NOT hardcode *any* presentation into the class name at all
[23:02:10] <ajturner> is there any ruleset to when align something l/r, or is it really image-by-image
[23:02:13] <factoryjoe> _a and _b offer no additional semantics
[23:02:20] <mfbot> [[User:ChristopheDucamp]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ChristopheDucamp&diff=0&oldid=12751 * ChristopheDucamp * (-35)
[23:02:32] <factoryjoe> ajturner: it's content + image
[23:02:32] <tantek> they offer the semantic that they belong in two different sets, a and b
[23:02:43] <factoryjoe> it depends
[23:02:43] <tantek> which is better than calling those sets "left" and "right"
[23:02:47] <factoryjoe> tantek: it's also contextual
[23:02:56] <factoryjoe> it might be wrong, but pragmatically, what happens when someone says "teh image to the right"
[23:02:59] <tantek> because presentational terms are a negative
[23:03:03] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
[23:03:04] <tantek> zero semantics are better than negative
[23:03:09] <ajturner> factoryjoe, I was just wondering if it was like: in a post about tech, with a company_logo, align that right - but if it's a post about one of my projects, align that thumbnail to the left
[23:03:11] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: you can used the advanced selector which works on the fact that the img you are talking about is sat inside the same elements each time.
[23:03:12] <bewest> presentational terms don't always add semantics, anyway
[23:03:14] * tantek references his semantic spectrum chart from 2003
[23:03:18] <ajturner> perhaps that's too much programming-design ;)
[23:03:38] <factoryjoe> ajturner: no, there's no real rhyme or reason
[23:03:59] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: we can scope the CSS just fine
[23:04:04] <tantek> http://tantek.com/presentations/2003SXSW/stylesheets.html
[23:04:23] <JamieKnight> then you shouldent need a class name for it, as the image is in the same place each time.
[23:04:34] <tantek> see slide 9 at that URL
[23:04:37] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: no it's not
[23:04:50] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: it can variably be placed on the right or the left
[23:04:51] <tantek> sorry that presentation predates fragment IDs for individual slides :)
[23:05:02] <factoryjoe> there's no reason other than intuition
[23:05:21] <JamieKnight> any imge in the section entry content you want this style applied too, if it reside inside a p then do it another way, if it reside inside a p below the h elemet do it another way
[23:05:46] <tantek> JamieKnight's suggestion is a good one
[23:06:16] <JamieKnight> then if you had a serios of image you they could auto align, you would have to "hack" IE for its advanced selectors but it is doable,
[23:06:38] <JamieKnight> series of images sorry,
[23:06:50] <JamieKnight> or, of course, you could use the DOM,
[23:07:00] <JamieKnight> but, its a waste of DOM, but could be done quite easily,
[23:07:09] <factoryjoe> ...
[23:07:47] <JamieKnight> basically, tell the dom to grab any image elements inside this class, this calss and this class and give them this class, but in the DOM not the XHTML
[23:07:49] <tantek> is "..." in IRC a shorthand for "I'm typing a long statement, hold on a sec?"
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[23:08:12] <JamieKnight> then the browser would display, the code the DOM told it to,
[23:08:32] <JamieKnight> tantek: i have a feeling this is "abuse of the DOM" but it would work, do you agree,
[23:08:40] <factoryjoe> ... == is I'm thinking
[23:09:22] <JamieKnight> tantek: ... == i am thinking OR i dont know what to say OR i am writing long reply next
[23:09:24] <veeliam> factoryjoe, designers are not inherently responsible for the semantics of a document.
[23:09:42] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: if you are coding it, you are responsible.
[23:09:49] <tantek> veeliam - but IAs (information architects) are
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[23:09:58] <tantek> and these days, the *good* designers are also IAs
[23:10:04] <tantek> and not just photoshop jockeys
[23:10:10] <JamieKnight> if you are a designer, but you are making the site, then you wear all hats,
[23:10:18] <JamieKnight> i prefere fireworks for site design myself,
[23:10:20] * ajturner (n=irc@d14-69-228-190.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
[23:10:24] <factoryjoe> I wear many hats
[23:10:31] <veeliam> tantek, yes. I'm jumping in late after reading the mflog
[23:10:32] <factoryjoe> and I'm responsible for the semantics of my blog
[23:10:42] <factoryjoe> especially my blog posts
[23:10:43] <JamieKnight> I work on my site alone, therefore i am the designer, IA, ect
[23:11:04] <veeliam> what JamieKnight was saying with the DOM, you can do that with the CSS.
[23:11:10] <JamieKnight> apart form some obvios thing i think my site is mostally semantic, i am improving it as i better,
[23:11:14] <factoryjoe> tantek: I appreciate what you're saying, I can agree, I can leave the alignfoo stuff behind
[23:11:20] <JamieKnight> veeliam: i know you can, i was saying another opetion,
[23:11:28] <factoryjoe> I don't feel we have an adequate human-friendly approach yet
[23:11:37] <factoryjoe> that people who have been using these classes will embrace
[23:11:42] <factoryjoe> .thumbnail is fine
[23:11:51] <factoryjoe> a LONG time ago I proposed .figure for this purpose
[23:12:05] <factoryjoe> since it could include data tables that needed to be aligned inline
[23:12:27] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=12752 * ChristopheDucamp * (+212) EVDB - add etnies
[23:12:45] <JamieKnight> if it was defined in the stylesheet, and the styname was somthing like WidthValue300px i am not entirely sure,
[23:12:48] <factoryjoe> i don't feel that, from the position of an aesthetitician, that i should have to sacrifice appearance for semantics
[23:13:00] <JamieKnight> the code would be describing the content not the element and its purpose,
[23:13:19] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: I have given you two option to solve this problem.
[23:13:25] <JamieKnight> CSS can do it, as can the DOM
[23:13:30] <tantek> JamieKnight, right
[23:13:52] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: I'm not fond of relying on DOM scripting for layout
[23:13:58] <JamieKnight> well, use CSS<
[23:14:00] <factoryjoe> I would prefer a CSS-based approach
[23:14:01] <tantek> factoryjoe, if you sacrifice semantics, then you sacrifice that scenario you asked for, which was to be able to redesign your blog simply by changing the style sheet and reusing the existing class names and have it make sense
[23:14:04] <veeliam> there really ought to be a difference between the semantics of the code and the semantics of the content.
[23:14:05] <JamieKnight> it is what it is designer for,
[23:14:23] <JamieKnight> veelem good sematics decribe both,
[23:14:31] <JamieKnight> EG: MainContent and SubContent
[23:14:49] <JamieKnight> describes it place in the code, and in the page, and from it you can infer its position
[23:15:06] <JamieKnight> IE: it is more likley that the subcontent is going to be thinner than the main content,
[23:15:09] <veeliam> JamieKnight, i agree.
[23:15:12] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has left #microformats
[23:15:39] <JamieKnight> somthign like placing a certai image to the left, can be done with advanced selectors,
[23:16:11] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: can you elaborate on that specific example?
[23:16:18] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: did you read the plaintxt.org blog post?
[23:16:30] <veeliam> .vcard .thumnail {}
[23:16:38] <JamieKnight> example earlier,
[23:16:52] <JamieKnight> .vcard img
[23:17:03] <JamieKnight> .entry-content + p + img { style here defined in external sheeet}
[23:17:16] <JamieKnight> that would work with you current classitis,
[23:17:24] <JamieKnight> on firefox, and safari,
[23:17:31] <JamieKnight> on IE you would have to trick it a bit,
[23:17:51] <veeliam> couldn't it be .vcard .logo {}
[23:18:02] <JamieKnight> but it can be done, they are CSS3 selectors,
[23:18:03] <JamieKnight> yep,
[23:18:24] <JamieKnight> my methos mean that the logo content image require no classes, making redesign easier,
[23:18:26] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: how do you solve the left/right alignment?
[23:18:40] <JamieKnight> you define it into the style i left space for,
[23:18:57] <factoryjoe> i would like to be able to choose left OR right
[23:19:02] <factoryjoe> can you give me an example?
[23:19:06] <JamieKnight> i am one sec,
[23:19:08] <veeliam> but the logo already has a class name, per the uF, yes?
[23:19:17] <JamieKnight> true,
[23:19:23] <factoryjoe> class=photo or class=logo
[23:19:28] <JamieKnight> he is talking about the image in the content of his blog.
[23:19:29] <factoryjoe> but we're talking about blog posts mostly
[23:19:36] <factoryjoe> in hatom
[23:19:48] <veeliam> ah., ok. i'll back up and reread before i chime in.
[23:19:49] * JamieKnight just had to move lion out of the way
[23:20:01] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
[23:20:02] <JamieKnight> okay, i will write out an example.
[23:20:26] <factoryjoe> perfect
[23:20:28] <factoryjoe> thanks
[23:24:16] <JamieKnight> <div class="post">
[23:24:17] <JamieKnight> <h1>title</h1>
[23:24:19] <JamieKnight> <img src="url" />
[23:24:20] <JamieKnight> <p>some content </p>
[23:24:22] <JamieKnight> <img src="url"/>
[23:24:23] <JamieKnight> <p>more conten, maybe another section<p>
[23:24:25] <JamieKnight> </div>
[23:24:27] <JamieKnight> thus i can target the first image to go right with .post + h1 {rule for right}
[23:24:29] <JamieKnight> thus i can target image two to go left .post + p {rule}
[23:24:30] <JamieKnight> and a third image center for example .post
[23:24:32] <JamieKnight> logic dictates eithe one of those elements, or one of those patterns will match to give you auto aligned images.
[23:24:52] <factoryjoe> ok... let me give you one more example
[23:25:15] <JamieKnight> sorry about the lenth of post, I have use somtimng similar before, I have the code for Ie somwhere too, the nature of CSS means that if a broser doesent understand it would place it to the common rule, thus not breaking accsesbilty.
[23:25:36] <JamieKnight> and making the desing more flexiable.
[23:25:59] <JamieKnight> tantek: does that code look right to you? I am REALLY tired so i might have made s tupid mistake.
[23:26:17] * JamieKnight notes this method is in andy budds book page 15
[23:26:40] <JamieKnight> i have just applied the advanced tag selectors.
[23:27:32] <JamieKnight> child and sibling selectors.......
[23:28:17] <factoryjoe> http://www.subtraction.com/archives/2007/0110_bad_for_palm.php
[23:28:30] <factoryjoe> i would like to be able to use arbitrarily ordered images
[23:28:42] <factoryjoe> khoi uses the class "pic-wide-float" to layout that iphone photo
[23:28:54] <factoryjoe> the icon up top doesn't seem to get a class
[23:30:02] <JamieKnight> okay, you could: float the image using imge from classname, of post, then set a universal clear on the paragraphs.
[23:30:25] <JamieKnight> i think you could anyway,
[23:30:35] <factoryjoe> that would be a pretty gross stylesheet, wouldn't it?
[23:30:45] <JamieKnight> not reallt,
[23:30:48] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-154-231-227.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
[23:30:52] <factoryjoe> btw, i'm not trying to give you a hard time
[23:30:58] <factoryjoe> just trying to apply this to reality
[23:31:04] <JamieKnight> pretty gross meaning = not perfect
[23:31:08] <veeliam> but line 882 of his CSS isolates that image, factoryjoe.
[23:31:12] <factoryjoe> and to what people are already doing, which is what tantek advocates for
[23:31:16] <JamieKnight> it would validate, and it would work.
[23:31:22] <factoryjoe> veeliam: how?
[23:31:38] <factoryjoe> by applying a style to pic-wide-float?
[23:31:50] <veeliam> float: left
[23:31:55] <tantek> factoryjoe - don't misinterpret process/scientific method
[23:32:09] <tantek> existing behavior is only an *input* to the analysis
[23:32:12] <factoryjoe> "document existing behavior"
[23:32:12] <JamieKnight> yes, only the good stuff though, there are more table site in the wild than stadards so by your logic as stated we should use stables?
[23:32:15] <factoryjoe> the behavior exists
[23:32:17] <tantek> existing behavior is *not* the conclusion
[23:32:24] <factoryjoe> no
[23:32:26] <factoryjoe> not necessarily
[23:32:30] <JamieKnight> it is not perfect behavior though,
[23:32:32] <tantek> in fact, copying existing behavior without analysis is just dumb
[23:32:40] <JamieKnight> it can be done better,
[23:32:45] <factoryjoe> agreed
[23:32:47] <factoryjoe> however
[23:32:50] <factoryjoe> it comes down to this
[23:32:51] <tantek> it's just copycatting/mimicking/lemminging
[23:32:52] <veeliam> .body-lead p img, .body-lead p img.thumb { float: left; margin: 3px 10px 3px 0px; }
[23:32:55] <JamieKnight> he has floated the image out of the main flow, that what i was suggestion,
[23:32:59] * tantek likes the word lemminging
[23:33:03] <JamieKnight> facotryjoehave you got firebug?
[23:33:14] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: yes
[23:33:18] <factoryjoe> just not enabled
[23:33:18] <tantek> this is why you have to define the problem *first*
[23:33:25] <factoryjoe> tantek:
[23:33:26] <JamieKnight> well, inspect it, it give you all the date you need.
[23:33:30] <tantek> and then document existing behavior
[23:33:35] <factoryjoe> the convention is to use trash class names.. .i.e. alignleft
[23:33:37] <veeliam> or just use the DOM inspector
[23:33:38] <tantek> and then *analyze* it (implied schema etc.)
[23:33:59] <tantek> factoryjoe, that's a convention as much as using FONT tags is a convention
[23:34:03] <JamieKnight> veeliam: I think DOM for layout is okay, but not for somthing this simple.
[23:34:04] <factoryjoe> the problem is to offer arbitrary visual alignment for objects inline or as block elements
[23:34:29] <factoryjoe> tantek: font tags might not be the solution, but the desire to choose font faces is something worthy of considering
[23:34:35] <JamieKnight> infact, is anyonein here a DOM guru, i have some questions.
[23:34:38] <factoryjoe> thus we have font-family
[23:34:56] <tantek> right you use the behavior to illuminate what the question is - not a prescription for behavior
[23:34:59] <tantek> that's my point
[23:35:01] <JamieKnight> position of images, thus we have image aligh set in the sheet with a decent descriptive tag name.
[23:35:10] <JamieKnight> image float sorry,
[23:35:12] <tantek> so saying "people use presentational class names, let's make that a pattern" is wrong
[23:35:16] <JamieKnight> getting sleepy
[23:35:17] <factoryjoe> i take your point and agree
[23:35:26] <tantek> so stop promoting presentational class names
[23:35:42] * JamieKnight wonders how old evryone in here is. most web peopl my age are all for tables.
[23:36:05] * JamieKnight feel like strangling most devloper his age
[23:36:21] <factoryjoe> tantek: the issue here is that the "pattern" i'm suggesting only applies to the visual design -- otherwise the class has no "data" value
[23:36:35] <JamieKnight> it does,
[23:36:39] <JamieKnight> it a content image.
[23:36:44] <JamieKnight> of this status
[23:37:00] <factoryjoe> no, the <img> tag specifies the data
[23:37:15] <factoryjoe> the IMG doesn't align itself
[23:37:24] <factoryjoe> i.e. there's no data in the image that says "align right"
[23:37:31] <factoryjoe> (nor should there be)
[23:37:35] <JamieKnight> so, for example, classing that image as SidContenteImage would be semantic, and they style from there.
[23:37:40] <veeliam> unless you use that align attribute!
[23:37:46] <veeliam> just kidding.
[23:37:52] <factoryjoe> however, in different *contexts*, layout can be extremely important to achieving meaning
[23:38:05] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: to a point,
[23:38:20] <JamieKnight> but remeber, just because you use the web visully does not mean that is it only use.
[23:38:37] <JamieKnight> As i have mention i am dyslexic, i spend alot of time with a screen reader,
[23:38:51] <tantek> and i spend a lot of time on a mobile browser
[23:39:05] <factoryjoe> as do i
[23:39:06] * JamieKnight is semi-mute and sign alot also, just for reference
[23:39:06] <tantek> people that use tables are living in a world without mobile browsers
[23:39:12] <tantek> tables for layout that is
[23:39:18] <factoryjoe> ok ok
[23:39:18] <JamieKnight> yeah, i agree,
[23:39:19] <factoryjoe> hold on
[23:39:24] <factoryjoe> this could be useful
[23:39:27] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
[23:39:32] <factoryjoe> because we have the media attribute for a reason
[23:39:45] <factoryjoe> and if the media is "screen" one presumes that there is a visual representation, right?
[23:39:52] <JamieKnight> not always,
[23:39:56] <factoryjoe> ?
[23:40:01] <factoryjoe> screen != screen?
[23:40:01] <tantek> factoryjoe - more complicated than that
[23:40:02] <JamieKnight> ever see the hearing aid loops,
[23:40:10] <tantek> because there are meta-UAs
[23:40:12] <JamieKnight> they are called screen lopps,
[23:40:20] <JamieKnight> screen loops,
[23:40:21] <tantek> "browsers" that run on top of other browsers
[23:40:23] <factoryjoe> so that sounds like an abuse of UAs
[23:40:26] <JamieKnight> the screen the sound to you
[23:40:27] <tantek> especially for accessibility
[23:40:27] <factoryjoe> and of the media selector
[23:40:45] <factoryjoe> there's "aural"
[23:40:48] <tantek> factoryjoe, it is not ideal, merely documenting some existing implementation
[23:40:54] <JamieKnight> they arther, screen is in this concept (i think) defined as transfer of selected content.
[23:41:18] <JamieKnight> Ie, screening liver transplant, mean taking a selection of the "content"
[23:41:26] <factoryjoe> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html#media-types
[23:41:33] <factoryjoe> handheld --> mobile
[23:41:38] <tantek> right
[23:41:40] <JamieKnight> handhel == PSP
[23:41:47] <factoryjoe> screen - Intended primarily for color computer screens.
[23:41:49] <JamieKnight> handheld == fridge,
[23:41:52] <factoryjoe> i rest my case
[23:42:09] <JamieKnight> is a fride portable? or handheld?
[23:42:27] <factoryjoe> however, the case isn't closed, because i'm arguing that the screen media type needs to be able to position and layout objects
[23:42:32] * JamieKnight wishes he had a portable infaltable fridge
[23:42:45] <factoryjoe> ....picking good semantic classes is key to data recognizability
[23:42:50] <JamieKnight> um..... it does.
[23:42:52] <factoryjoe> that's fine and indisputable
[23:43:03] <JamieKnight> a class can be sematic, and description,
[23:43:11] <JamieKnight> just need to be inventive,
[23:43:11] <factoryjoe> however, when layout is key to the medium you're using, why can't you have classes of objects that are laid out in similar fashion?
[23:43:37] <JamieKnight> do you design website for the concept or the design?
[23:43:39] <factoryjoe> and why can't you use "classes" for that purpose, given they're of similar form?
[23:43:51] <OpenStandards> am I correct in thinking that column_a would be better than column_left
[23:43:59] <tantek> OpenStandards - yes
[23:44:04] <JamieKnight> so, you website is so that people can look at a nice desing and all the test is lorem ipsum.
[23:44:15] <tantek> it is better to have a vague abstract semantic, than a presentational semantic
[23:44:17] <JamieKnight> wouldent MainContent and Subcontent be even better?
[23:44:21] <factoryjoe> design can offer meaning
[23:44:25] <JamieKnight> i agree with tantek
[23:44:28] <tantek> because it removes the hardcoded presentation tie in
[23:44:29] <OpenStandards> thanks tantek
[23:44:33] <factoryjoe> so it can and should be considered content on occassion
[23:44:43] <JamieKnight> design can offer meaning, but, the actully meaning of the structure is greater,
[23:44:56] * remi (n=remi@dsl-137-205.aei.ca) has joined #microformats
[23:45:00] <JamieKnight> structure > meanding
[23:45:04] <JamieKnight> meaning,
[23:45:06] <tantek> layout can offer meaning in two dimensional charted data for example
[23:45:17] <OpenStandards> factoryjoe, problem is if you do a redesign you´ll have to change the mark up as your css might be different
[23:45:19] <tantek> but even then, the semantic is often numerical
[23:45:38] <tantek> factoryjoe - everytime you think "design can offer meaning", think about how you would communicate that meaning to a blind user
[23:45:41] <JamieKnight> tantek: 3D can have meaning too, a picture with an object closer and an object further, the object closer seems more important.
[23:45:43] <OpenStandards> your column that had positioned to the left might be to the right
[23:46:06] <factoryjoe> @media screen {.alignright { float:right;magin: 0 0 10px 10px; }}
[23:46:13] <JamieKnight> but i am not picking, you are right, just explanding.
[23:46:21] <OpenStandards> JamieKnight, what do you think of source ordered pages
[23:46:33] <JamieKnight> OpenStandards: source orderd pages?
[23:46:38] <factoryjoe> OpenStandards: how would you preserve the meaning offered by the original layout then?
[23:46:42] <JamieKnight> i dont understand you language, sorry,
[23:46:48] <OpenStandards> content before navigation
[23:46:55] <factoryjoe> if i say "that image on the right" but i've only called the image by the class "thumbnail"
[23:47:03] <JamieKnight> i think in some cerstances that is correct
[23:47:06] <factoryjoe> and i change the float for "thumbnail" i've lost original meaning
[23:47:37] <JamieKnight> IE, if you are buidling a website, as a walk, then navagation should be secound, you can use CSS to place it at the top.
[23:48:00] <JamieKnight> thumbnail is better, it is describing the image
[23:48:08] <JamieKnight> right / left desribes its position,
[23:48:43] <JamieKnight> OpenStandards: does that make sense, or have i misundersood?
[23:50:05] <factoryjoe> JamieKnight: tantek contends that any presentational class is a net negative
[23:50:24] <OpenStandards> it does but surely that creates a usablity issues as most sites have links before content and by having content before links you might throw the user somewhat
[23:50:25] <factoryjoe> whereas semantic neutral (thumbnail_b) is net positive
[23:50:26] * JamieKnight is looking forward ot his extra display when he gets home
[23:50:30] <JamieKnight> yes,
[23:50:34] <JamieKnight> that is what i said,
[23:51:07] <JamieKnight> true, OpenStandards however, if i was writing a site, lets say decribing a walk, then i would like the user to go from page 1 to 2, to 3 ect,
[23:51:14] <JamieKnight> and thus, having the links at the bottom,
[23:51:21] <JamieKnight> would be logical,
[23:51:48] <JamieKnight> an acsssibility Div might be useful, though,
[23:52:02] <JamieKnight> so, on a screen reader i can instruct for link number whatever,
[23:52:26] * JamieKnight thinks this incase he has allredy visited the site and has heard page 1,2,3 and want to go to4
[23:52:56] <JamieKnight> however, is thier cache has not be clead somthing with redirects and the DOM could be used, to take you back to you last page upoin a reffere that is not the the site
[23:54:14] <OpenStandards> its actually nice discussing semantic mark up and accessablity its a topic not covered that well
[23:54:31] <JamieKnight> it is yes,
[23:54:53] <JamieKnight> I am happyt o be able to talk to other web standards people, rather than the using idiot i talk to, apart form alun of course,
[23:55:14] <JamieKnight> tantek: I think you have met alun,
[23:56:33] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
[23:58:11] <tantek> factoryjoe - not just me. Eric Meyer and many others who have been working on this stuff / in this stuff for a long time have all discussed how/why presentational class names are bad.
[23:59:25] <bewest> tantek: you must really love Dreamweaver then: "style1, style2...."
[23:59:26] <factoryjoe> I don't necessary disagree
[23:59:29] <JamieKnight> factoryjoe: have you read the books from dan @ simplebits,
[23:59:35] <factoryjoe> not all
[23:59:40] <factoryjoe> or at least completely
[23:59:47] <tantek> bewest, those are neutral names and thus i'm neutral on them
[23:59:57] <factoryjoe> i still have to start reading GTD

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