IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:23:52] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
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  25. [02:26:16] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13023 * PeNGo * (+1462) Wikipedia - more detailed
  26. [02:27:10] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  27. [02:27:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  28. [02:27:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  29. [02:53:43] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@68-68-183-37.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #microformats
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  32. [02:56:50] <jnbdzjnbdz_> hi
  33. [02:57:18] <jnbdzjnbdz_> i ave a question is there a microformat for basic web pages?
  34. [02:57:39] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #microformats
  35. [02:57:39] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
  36. [03:00:23] * jnbdzjnbdz_ is now known as jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz
  37. [03:00:36] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> i ave a question is there a microformat for basic web pages?
  38. [03:06:21] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  39. [03:07:22] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  40. [03:08:29] <veeliam> I think what you'd be looking for is "rel-bookmark"
  41. [03:10:41] <veeliam> so, jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz, check that out on the wiki and see if that'll serve your needs
  42. [03:11:20] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> ok
  43. [03:26:57] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has left #microformats
  44. [03:28:08] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> its not what i was realy looking for but it is interesting...
  45. [03:29:16] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> im looking for a microformat, that tels you what is the main menu where is the footer, where the header is
  46. [03:30:22] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> imagine your blinde you could say to your computer tell me what is in the main menu
  47. [03:32:23] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> or people that access your web site would be able to control the way the page shows, they could tell the browser don't load the css just the main content or only the main menu
  48. [03:33:54] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> or imagine certain people are more at ease when the web site is shown in a certain way they could be able to control the way the content shows
  49. [03:35:13] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  50. [03:36:20] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> but the reason im realy looking for this is for my web app that needs to know what is the main menu and the content of the page to give the n-user better control over there page
  51. [03:38:53] <jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz> the other reason is imagine some body looks up your site whit a very old browser and becose it as bad support for css it shows in a unredable way, you cood create for all your site a basic style that when a older browser loads the page it gets only your basic style
  52. [03:48:41] * danbri (n=chatzill@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  53. [03:49:05] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13024 * PeNGo * (+3960) my own comments
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  56. [03:52:06] <mfbot> [[User:PeNGo]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:PeNGo * PeNGo * (+112)
  57. [03:52:27] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13025 * PeNGo * (+47) Contributors -
  58. [03:54:18] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-055-106.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  59. [03:59:39] <factoryjoe> anyone here have thoughts on xfn scoping?
  60. [04:04:38] * pengo (i=pengo@60-242-139-27.tpgi.com.au) has joined #microformats
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  62. [04:16:54] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: ping
  63. [04:28:59] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
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  69. [05:17:00] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  70. [05:17:00] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  71. [05:17:00] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  73. [05:26:46] <mfbot> [[User:DerrickPallas]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DerrickPallas * DerrickPallas * (+1153) initial edit
  74. [05:34:04] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  75. [05:34:04] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  80. [07:08:42] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  83. [07:13:51] <mfbot> [[User:DerrickPallas]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DerrickPallas&diff=0&oldid=13026 * DerrickPallas * (+702) Derrick Pallas -
  84. [07:42:02] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  85. [07:42:03] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  86. [07:55:37] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  87. [07:55:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  88. [07:55:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  89. [08:17:53] <factoryjoe> tantek:
  90. [08:17:55] <factoryjoe> you here?
  91. [08:18:06] <tantek> no i am a meat popsicle.
  92. [08:18:13] <factoryjoe> this is true
  93. [08:18:21] <factoryjoe> i have a question about xfn
  94. [08:18:28] <factoryjoe> a couple actually
  95. [08:18:35] <KevinMarks> it can't be that cold in LA can it?
  96. [08:19:36] <factoryjoe> how do you mix up hcard + xfn
  97. [08:19:55] <factoryjoe> a different way
  98. [08:20:08] <factoryjoe> xfn links should be embeddable in hcards
  99. [08:20:13] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples for the answer to that question
  100. [08:20:25] <factoryjoe> ok
  101. [08:21:30] <factoryjoe> hmm
  102. [08:21:46] <factoryjoe> i see
  103. [08:21:50] <factoryjoe> that's no good
  104. [08:23:06] <factoryjoe> crap
  105. [08:23:22] <factoryjoe> i need xfn links as decendents of hcards
  106. [08:24:11] <tantek> only the destination of an hCard has the authority to do that
  107. [08:24:31] <tantek> you don't get to say who your friends friends are - that's one of the fundamental flaws in FOAF - it does not reflect reality
  108. [08:25:00] <factoryjoe> i get that
  109. [08:25:19] <factoryjoe> i should just write up my proposal and then you can shoot it down
  110. [08:25:59] <factoryjoe> xfn is not adequately scoped
  111. [08:26:27] <tantek> it's scoped to the URL which represents the person
  112. [08:26:28] <factoryjoe> you can't definitively answer the question "who is linking to whom" right now
  113. [08:26:36] <factoryjoe> barcamp.wordpress.com
  114. [08:26:41] <factoryjoe> there are multiple authors
  115. [08:26:53] <factoryjoe> when an author uses XFN, who's linking to whom?
  116. [08:27:01] <factoryjoe> ah, then you go to the author post, right?
  117. [08:27:07] <factoryjoe> err, author of the post
  118. [08:27:13] <factoryjoe> but that's not what XFN says
  119. [08:27:35] <factoryjoe> if i link to barcamp.wordpress.com and say rel=me, that's only partially true
  120. [08:27:52] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  121. [08:28:20] <tantek> XFN is designed for group blogs
  122. [08:28:26] <tantek> is NOT designed for group blogs - sorry
  123. [08:28:32] <factoryjoe> so, if you try to determine which author is xfn-linking, you can't rely solely on URL
  124. [08:28:37] <factoryjoe> mm
  125. [08:28:38] <factoryjoe> indeed
  126. [08:29:21] <factoryjoe> it's presuming that there's one url per person?
  127. [08:29:53] <tantek> it is *modeled* on the 99% behavior of blogs which is one url per person
  128. [08:30:08] <KevinMarks> which maps well to OpenID, as we have said
  129. [08:30:16] <factoryjoe> which i'm trying to write up
  130. [08:30:27] <factoryjoe> but i don't think one URL per person is true for 99% anymore
  131. [08:30:34] <KevinMarks> you would refer to Tantek as tantek.com/log
  132. [08:30:42] <factoryjoe> yes
  133. [08:30:43] <KevinMarks> not one URL per person, one person per URL
  134. [08:30:44] <tantek> out of 60m+ blogs? I'd say 99% r still one person
  135. [08:30:48] <factoryjoe> or twitter.com/t
  136. [08:31:04] <tantek> KevinMarks is correct
  137. [08:31:13] <KevinMarks> you wouldn't refer to Cory as boingboing.net, you'd use craphound.com
  138. [08:31:23] <tantek> right
  139. [08:31:24] <factoryjoe> which is convenient in his case
  140. [08:31:27] <factoryjoe> ok
  141. [08:31:35] <factoryjoe> but the opposite is what's tricky here
  142. [08:31:47] <factoryjoe> what happens when someone on the microformats blog xfn-links to tantek.com?
  143. [08:31:53] <factoryjoe> who has the relationship to tantek?
  144. [08:33:51] <factoryjoe> ?
  145. [08:33:59] <KevinMarks> well, if we felt like being bothered we could say it's scoped by hAtom, but thta is a lot of extra work
  146. [08:34:12] <factoryjoe> well, that is what i would say
  147. [08:34:21] <factoryjoe> why is that a lot of work/
  148. [08:34:22] <factoryjoe> ?
  149. [08:35:10] <KevinMarks> for parser writers; we do that for rel-tag - we deliberately leave the scope loose, and tighten it in hReview etc
  150. [08:35:36] <KevinMarks> but that does push against the core of XFN more
  151. [08:35:47] <factoryjoe> what does?
  152. [08:35:51] <tantek> factoryjoe - add your q's to http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-issues and we'll figure them out...
  153. [08:35:59] <factoryjoe> the core being url to url relationships?
  154. [08:36:10] <factoryjoe> tantek: i'm writing them up in a post
  155. [08:36:14] <factoryjoe> and then i can add them to the wiki
  156. [08:36:32] <KevinMarks> the core being XFN's 80:20 assumption of one person per URL
  157. [08:36:40] <factoryjoe> my goal is to get openid + hcard + xfn working together for transcending social networks
  158. [08:37:10] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: that's fine from the destination perspective -- not fine from the originating perspective
  159. [08:37:34] <factoryjoe> there are, for example, a lot of planet sites that syndicate blog posts -- if mine got syndicated they'd have XFN links in them
  160. [08:38:10] <tantek> factoryjoe - just include concrete URLs to precise examples instead of general statements and we'll take a look at it.
  161. [08:38:33] <tantek> and don't worry about writing up a big blog post - just a succinct summary of the issue based on concrete real-world example URLs is sufficient
  162. [08:38:39] <tantek> no need to make a big essay out of it
  163. [08:38:44] <factoryjoe> too late
  164. [08:38:47] <tantek> just keep it simple and we'll solve the problem
  165. [08:38:49] <tantek> ttyl
  166. [08:38:51] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  167. [08:38:53] <factoryjoe> heh
  168. [08:39:10] <factoryjoe> well, i'm still going to post what i have to say
  169. [08:47:15] <factoryjoe> KevinMarks: what do you think of enclosing xfn links within hcard?
  170. [08:48:22] <KevinMarks> hm, I can see that it might work if you don't put class="url" on them
  171. [08:48:48] <factoryjoe> so
  172. [08:48:54] <factoryjoe> here's my radical proposal
  173. [08:49:02] <factoryjoe> and i know you'll shoot it down
  174. [08:49:43] <factoryjoe> but scoping xfn to an hcard could be very useful
  175. [08:50:02] <factoryjoe> of course, scoping xfn without the secondary hcards is kind of stupid
  176. [08:50:14] <factoryjoe> so really you'd need hcard <- xfn <- hcard
  177. [08:50:31] <factoryjoe> but enclosing hcards within hcards has been disallowed
  178. [08:50:59] <factoryjoe> but, what if there were one case where you could embed hcards in an hcard?
  179. [08:51:17] <KevinMarks> the point of xfn is links between pages
  180. [08:51:25] <KevinMarks> without that there is no href for the rel
  181. [08:51:39] <factoryjoe> indeed
  182. [08:51:48] <KevinMarks> and you are committing the FOAfF bug of asserting info about others
  183. [08:52:25] <factoryjoe> i've not intention to assert anything about anyone else
  184. [08:52:32] <factoryjoe> except, perhaps, what i think is their url
  185. [08:52:51] <factoryjoe> take a look at this: http://factoryjoe.com/hcard.html
  186. [08:55:16] <KevinMarks> ah, that makes some sense
  187. [08:55:17] <factoryjoe> ok
  188. [08:55:20] <factoryjoe> refresh
  189. [08:55:24] <factoryjoe> i added tantek
  190. [08:55:31] <KevinMarks> you have 2 mets on tara
  191. [08:55:34] <KevinMarks> yes, got tantek
  192. [08:55:35] <factoryjoe> oops
  193. [08:55:37] <factoryjoe> ok
  194. [08:55:48] <factoryjoe> fixed
  195. [08:55:50] <factoryjoe> so
  196. [08:55:52] <factoryjoe> here's the deal
  197. [08:55:57] <factoryjoe> i want to make tara an hcard
  198. [08:56:01] <factoryjoe> she's a person right?
  199. [08:56:05] <factoryjoe> but..
  200. [08:56:15] <factoryjoe> if i share this page w/ others
  201. [08:56:22] <factoryjoe> how do i scope the relationships?
  202. [08:56:24] <factoryjoe> well
  203. [08:56:30] <factoryjoe> since a page can only have one address element
  204. [08:56:37] <factoryjoe> and the address element refers to the author
  205. [08:57:01] <factoryjoe> it seems like you could have *one exception* where you could embed hcards in an address.vcard
  206. [08:57:28] <factoryjoe> ok referesh now
  207. [08:57:48] <factoryjoe> operator picks up 3 hcards
  208. [08:58:33] <factoryjoe> hrm
  209. [09:00:54] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  210. [09:00:54] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  211. [09:00:56] <factoryjoe> the problem with that is what happens to xfn links within those hcards
  212. [09:01:56] <factoryjoe> grr
  213. [09:02:03] <factoryjoe> i don't think i'm going to figure this out now
  214. [09:02:15] <KevinMarks> yes, that is awkward, because a non-nesting compliant parser will think tara is your url too
  215. [09:03:03] <factoryjoe> well, given what i was trying to do, it'll also think that the xfn links will be from tara's perspective
  216. [09:03:07] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  217. [09:03:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  218. [09:03:25] <factoryjoe> ie the xfn links should reflect the relationships of the parent hcard
  219. [09:06:30] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  220. [09:07:05] <factoryjoe> craptastic
  221. [09:09:16] <mfbot> [[rel-examples-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=13027 * ChristopheDucamp * (+329) [fr: ajout thom watson]
  222. [09:10:14] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  223. [09:11:57] <factoryjoe> oh well -- off for bed
  224. [09:12:03] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-055-106.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  225. [09:15:10] * tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-106-142-15.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  226. [09:15:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  227. [09:15:10] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  228. [09:17:18] <mfbot> [[xfn-implementations-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13028 * ChristopheDucamp * (+72) sync'd wiht original page
  229. [09:18:14] <mfbot> [[xfn-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13029 * ChristopheDucamp * (+15)
  230. [09:21:29] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  231. [09:21:29] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  232. [09:22:00] <mfbot> [[xfn-wants-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-wants-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+977) traduction de xfn-wants
  233. [09:25:26] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages-fr&diff=0&oldid=13030 * ChristopheDucamp * (+137) updating with vcard suggestion
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  235. [09:46:53] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=13031 * Jufemaiz * (+262) Blogging and CMS tools -
  236. [09:47:39] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=13032 * Jufemaiz * (+18) Blogging and CMS tools -
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  249. [10:28:32] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  250. [10:50:36] <KevinMarks> should've used microformats: http://cellar.org/iotd.php?threadid=13127
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  256. [11:05:48] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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  260. [11:11:28] <mfbot> [[this-week-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/this-week-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1093)
  261. [11:11:44] <mfbot> [[this-week-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-fr&diff=0&oldid=13033 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
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  263. [11:16:30] <mfbot> [[this-week-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-fr&diff=0&oldid=13034 * ChristopheDucamp * (+96)
  264. [11:23:36] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/this-week-pending-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1965)
  265. [11:24:17] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending-fr&diff=0&oldid=13035 * ChristopheDucamp * (+15) Cette Semaine en Microformats - Items en attente de publication -
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  267. [11:55:29] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending-fr&diff=0&oldid=13036 * ChristopheDucamp * (+169) Voir aussi -
  268. [11:55:51] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending-fr&diff=0&oldid=13037 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
  269. [11:57:22] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending-fr&diff=0&oldid=13038 * ChristopheDucamp * (+156)
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  272. [12:07:45] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  287. [13:11:05] <mfbot> [[this-week-pending-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-pending-fr&diff=0&oldid=13039 * ChristopheDucamp * (+15)
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  289. [13:11:42] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  292. [13:32:58] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  297. [13:40:27] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=13040 * ChristopheDucamp * (+857)
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  300. [13:41:11] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  301. [13:45:29] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-schedule-creator-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-schedule-creator-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1197)
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  303. [13:50:14] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  308. [14:24:06] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=13041 * ChristopheDucamp * (+574)
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  317. [15:09:05] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  318. [15:14:11] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  319. [15:14:11] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  320. [15:14:29] <Kilianvalkhof> yah! it finally *knows* me!
  321. [15:16:13] <owen_e> :)
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  330. [15:33:19] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  332. [15:33:57] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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  337. [15:48:59] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  344. [16:05:31] <mkaply> is this valid?
  345. [16:05:32] <mkaply> <a class="email" href="mailto:neuroNOSPAM@t37.net">
  346. [16:05:32] <mkaply> <span class="type">pref</span><span>erred email</span>
  347. [16:05:32] <mkaply> </a>
  348. [16:07:16] * danbri (n=chatzill@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  349. [16:08:46] <davecardwell> looks it - why do you need the second span though?
  350. [16:09:30] * OpenStandards is now known as OpenStandards|af
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  354. [16:12:17] <mkaply> davecardwell: Not sure I do. This was in a test I had. So you can nest a type inside of a parent class? vs. <class="emaiil><type><value></class>?
  355. [16:14:08] * mkaply wonders if parsing microformats could be made any more difficult
  356. [16:14:48] <davecardwell> I think nesting the type inside the parent class is the only way of doing it
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  358. [16:15:00] <davecardwell> ala http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
  359. [16:16:33] <mkaply> I agree with that, it was more a question of why in that scenario you wouldn't just use class="email" as a container and nest the value as well
  360. [16:17:12] * TylerR (n=tylerr@68.178.101.38) has joined #microformats
  361. [16:17:12] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social at http://mappuccino.com
  362. [16:18:00] <mkaply> I'm assuming putting a <span class"value">other email address</span> inside that class="email" is invalid - if someone did, which would be the email that should be taken
  363. [16:21:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=13042 * ChristopheDucamp * (+527) Problématiques -
  364. [16:21:54] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  365. [16:21:54] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  377. [17:02:36] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  379. [17:07:19] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=13043 * Leikam * (+77) Issues - + link to hcal cheatsheet
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  388. [17:25:54] <DerrickPallas> In an hCard, in class="email", there is an optional (type,value) pair. If value does not exist, that falls back to the href of the anchor, correct?
  389. [17:26:10] <DerrickPallas> Or is it the value of something other than the actual address?
  390. [17:31:22] <DerrickPallas> Guess it's too early. :) Time for coffee.
  391. [17:32:14] <Kilianvalkhof> it's around beertime here, actually
  392. [17:32:29] <Kilianvalkhof> i just don't know the answer :P
  393. [17:33:28] <DerrickPallas> It's all good. I went ahead and implemented another mode in XSLT to deal with emails specifically.
  394. [17:34:30] <DerrickPallas> Right now, I've got a standard mode (for normal tags), an URL mode that pulls out hrefs (or data or src, depending) and a pair mode that deals with type/values but falls back to standard mode.
  395. [17:34:50] <DerrickPallas> Now I've got an urlpair mode that falls back to url instead, which falls back to standard.
  396. [17:38:06] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  397. [17:38:06] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  398. [17:43:45] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: I believe the answer is yes.
  399. [17:44:22] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: note that there can still be a type nessted in the anchor, even if the value is separate
  400. [17:45:03] <DerrickPallas> I understand.
  401. [17:45:25] <DerrickPallas> The mode pulls the type (if it exists) and then attempts to pull the value, falling back to "url" mode.
  402. [17:45:43] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  403. [17:45:44] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  404. [17:45:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  405. [17:45:52] <DerrickPallas> I just wanted to confirm that the value is the href and not text() if class="value" doesn't exist.
  406. [17:46:04] <bewest> welcome DerrickPallas :-D
  407. [17:46:09] <DerrickPallas> Howdy Ben.
  408. [17:46:24] * mkaply is in the middle of writing a Javascript microformat parser, so sees the same issues
  409. [17:46:38] <bewest> mkaply: from scratch?
  410. [17:47:16] <bewest> there's already a few js parsers available. any special reasons you decided to roll your own?
  411. [17:47:27] <mkaply> bewest: yeah. I'm working on this idea of being able to descript a microformat using a Javascript structure and then have a generic set of functions that can run against the definition file
  412. [17:47:33] <bewest> ah yes
  413. [17:47:36] <bewest> I came up with something like that
  414. [17:47:43] <bewest> what have you got so far? I'd like to trade notes
  415. [17:47:53] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  416. [17:48:07] <DerrickPallas> Yours is in json, right Ben?
  417. [17:48:15] <bewest> kind of
  418. [17:48:16] <bewest> http://dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js
  419. [17:48:26] <mkaply> bewest:http://www.kaply.com/operator/vcard.html
  420. [17:48:45] <DerrickPallas> The old Ruby scraper did something similar.
  421. [17:48:45] <bewest> I never know what people mean by json now, I think there's an RFC defining json to not include some practices I'm used to
  422. [17:48:57] <mkaply> bewest: mine can also contain code to handle special cases and things.
  423. [17:49:23] <aconbere|work> I've never understood the distinction of JSON
  424. [17:49:25] <bewest> mkaply: neat. what kind of structure have you come up with? anything I could take a peak at?
  425. [17:49:26] <aconbere|work> it's just Javascript
  426. [17:49:33] <mkaply> bewest: view source on that URL
  427. [17:49:36] <bewest> oh
  428. [17:49:41] * bewest missed the url somehow
  429. [17:49:41] <aconbere|work> with defined good practices
  430. [17:50:22] <aconbere|work> It would be like saying "good C++" is CON, and not so object oriented C++ was just C++.
  431. [17:50:53] <aconbere|work> we don't make distinctions for most languages, why do we for Javascript?
  432. [17:51:19] <DerrickPallas> It's Javascript that other languages happen to understand. And it makes all those web interface people feel good when you return data in a form they understand.
  433. [17:51:47] <bewest> mkaply: that's an interesting decision to include functions with the data
  434. [17:52:03] <mkaply> bewest: YEah. The webcard guy thought of that.
  435. [17:52:09] <bewest> mkaply: webcard?
  436. [17:52:19] <mkaply> WebCards - it's another microformat extension that is going to be coming out
  437. [17:52:24] <DerrickPallas> mkaply: You might take a look http://blog.labnotes.org/2005/11/20/microformat-parser-for-ruby/
  438. [17:53:11] <DerrickPallas> Although, I think that library was superceeded by ScrAPI
  439. [17:53:11] <mkaply> We're trying to work together on some ideas vs. compete.
  440. [17:54:17] <aconbere|work> DerrickPallas: It strikes me as redundant still.
  441. [17:55:25] <DerrickPallas> A: perhaps. All I know is that when my back-end services return data, it's easy for me to coax it into a form that Javascript understands. It's harder for the front-end people to parse and transform it.
  442. [17:56:35] <DerrickPallas> Really, it's just the LCD.
  443. [17:56:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  444. [17:56:51] <DerrickPallas> Probably not a discussion for this channel, though.
  445. [17:57:35] <TylerR> Anyone here attending Web Directions North? :) (besides you speakers that is)
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  453. [18:07:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  454. [18:07:03] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  455. [18:07:05] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  457. [18:11:24] <TylerR> Hey there briansuda.
  458. [18:11:33] <briansuda> hello TylerR
  459. [18:11:42] <TylerR> How was the weekend?
  460. [18:13:09] <briansuda> like it never existed
  461. [18:13:31] <TylerR> Ouch, lots of work?
  462. [18:16:33] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=13044 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1310)
  463. [18:17:25] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  464. [18:17:56] <briansuda> just busy with plenty of projects
  465. [18:19:07] <jcw9> happy monday
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  467. [18:21:00] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  468. [18:21:34] <mfbot> [[rel-nofollow-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-nofollow-fr&diff=0&oldid=13045 * ChristopheDucamp * (-18)
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  472. [18:23:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  473. [18:23:31] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  474. [18:24:46] <mkaply> briansuda: vCards appear to have the ability to specify a TYPE (at least when Outlook exports a VCF) - any reason that's not in hCard
  475. [18:25:01] <briansuda> it is not part of the RFC
  476. [18:26:15] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=13046 * ChristopheDucamp * (+105)
  477. [18:28:21] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=13047 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Brouillons -
  478. [18:28:35] <mkaply> briansuda: that's kind of sad. URL needs a type field so bad
  479. [18:28:56] <briansuda> yes and no. a URL is a URL
  480. [18:29:04] <briansuda> the content is what is the TYPE
  481. [18:29:07] <briansuda> not the object
  482. [18:29:15] <briansuda> where as a TEL is a CAR phone
  483. [18:29:16] <mkaply> briansuda: I'm thinking of work URL vs. home url in a vcard
  484. [18:30:07] <briansuda> if we stick with the RFC, then it is a matter of attacking the problem from that troute
  485. [18:30:10] <briansuda> route...
  486. [18:30:19] <briansuda> same as Instant messaging protocols
  487. [18:30:36] <mkaply> at least with the IM protocols you can do some parsing of the URL and know what it is
  488. [18:35:36] * tantek (n=tantek@m810f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
  489. [18:35:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  490. [18:35:36] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  491. [18:36:47] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
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  494. [18:37:44] <TylerR> Howdy tantek.
  495. [18:37:50] <tantek> greetings
  496. [18:38:18] * tantek is still on vacation but is here to listen and maybe answer quick questions.
  497. [18:38:29] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  498. [18:38:29] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  499. [18:38:48] <TylerR> Pitching my WDN attendence today to one of the company partners today. :)
  500. [18:39:21] <TylerR> It's definitely tight in terms of timing, but I think I may win her over.
  501. [18:40:42] <mkaply> tantek: I have a question about ISO dates. Is the proper ISO format XXXX-XX-XXTXXXXXX or XXXXXXXXTXXXXXX (with or without the dashes) or bot
  502. [18:40:44] <mkaply> both
  503. [18:41:09] <tantek> both are valid ISO, including if you use ":" to delimit HH:MM:SS
  504. [18:41:20] <mkaply> Most services (yahoo, google) seem to expect things without the dashes.
  505. [18:41:31] <mkaply> oe :
  506. [18:41:34] <mkaply> or :'s
  507. [18:41:40] <tantek> "expect"?
  508. [18:41:47] <tantek> in what context? URL?
  509. [18:41:59] <mkaply> like the URL to add a yahoo calendar for instance
  510. [18:44:12] <mkaply> tantek:
  511. [18:44:13] <mkaply> http://calendar.yahoo.com/?v=60&TITLE=Make+Austin+Wierder+Fest+4&DESC=Way+more+avant+garde+than+Keep+Austin+Weird+will+ever+be.%0D%0A%0D%0A4%3A00+-+Pataphysics%0D%0A5%3A00+-+Toof+%0D%0A6%3A00+-+Seizures%21+%0D%0A7%3A00+-+Assacre+%0D%0A8%3A00+-+Cry+Blood+Apache+%0D%0A9%3A00+-+HUG&TYPE=24&URL=http://upcoming.org/event/134279/&ST=20070210T160000&DUR=0700&in_loc=Lovejoy%27s&in_st=604+Neches+Street&in_csz=Austin%2C+Texas+78701&in_ph=
  512. [18:44:40] <mkaply> if you change it to 2007-02-10 for instance, it doesn't parse. I'm just deciding how to store my dates in my internal JS representation
  513. [18:45:10] <mkaply> I would love to store actual JS Date objects, but the JS Date spec is kind of bad/useless
  514. [18:45:16] <tantek> indeed
  515. [18:45:31] <mkaply> I'm considering rolling my own date/time objects for my purposes
  516. [18:45:47] <tantek> ah - so the Y! Calendar HTTP API only accepts YYYYMMDDTHHMMSS formatted datetimes then?
  517. [18:48:28] <mkaply> tantek: yep. And the same with google.
  518. [18:48:43] <tantek> perhaps this is worth documenting somewhere on the wiki
  519. [18:48:52] <mkaply> So when I roll my own datetime object, I'm thinking that's what I should return as an ISO date since it seems to be used by those services
  520. [18:49:10] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  521. [18:49:54] <tantek> yes that seems reasonable
  522. [18:50:16] <tantek> do they accept (or reject) a "Z" at the end to indicate explicit UTC?
  523. [18:50:35] <aconbere|work> in python you sepecify what seperator you want
  524. [18:50:49] <aconbere|work> .isoformat([seperator])
  525. [18:51:28] * bewest hates date parsing from string representations in python
  526. [18:51:51] <aconbere|work> ugh, yes string to dates is gross
  527. [18:51:58] <bewest> it's shameful
  528. [18:52:02] <aconbere|work> and python doesn't handel timezones well
  529. [18:52:16] <bewest> php's strptime is much better
  530. [18:52:22] <bewest> it handles just about anything you can throw at it
  531. [18:52:30] <aconbere|work> apparently the strptime was rewritten in 2.5
  532. [18:52:34] <aconbere|work> I don't know if you've used that
  533. [18:52:35] <bewest> oooOOoo
  534. [18:52:38] * bewest has not
  535. [18:52:38] <aconbere|work> (I haven't)
  536. [18:52:44] <aconbere|work> yeah
  537. [18:52:48] <bewest> there are operational and maintenance issues for that :(
  538. [18:52:49] <aconbere|work> it's supposed to be much improved
  539. [18:52:56] <aconbere|work> yeah that's my issue :)
  540. [18:53:11] <aconbere|work> but I look forward to it
  541. [18:53:16] <bewest> yes
  542. [18:53:18] <bewest> maybe in a year
  543. [18:53:34] <TylerR> tantek: Excited about your talk next week?
  544. [18:54:04] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Client Quit)
  545. [18:54:36] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@c4.gbrownc.on.ca) Quit (Connection timed out)
  546. [18:55:47] <mkaply> tantek: Not sure about the UTC thing.
  547. [18:56:10] <tantek> TylerR - very much - so much great work that folks have done in the community to be highlighted and held up as great examples. like recent LinkedIn hResume support, Operator, etc.
  548. [18:57:28] <TylerR> Oh definitely! I've been talking with Steve Ganz over at LinkedIn recently. Very excited about the hResume support.
  549. [18:58:14] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  550. [19:00:13] <mfbot> [[class-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=class-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=13048 * Tantek * (+277) update with references to semantic-xhtml and class-names pages, add more detail to steps, and reorder/collapse
  551. [19:00:21] <bewest> I thought if have a node with class="url", and the href is absent, you should evaluate the contents of the node
  552. [19:00:32] <bewest> but I can't find it in any parsing notes on the wiki
  553. [19:00:41] <tantek> bewest, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
  554. [19:00:48] <bewest> I've looked there, but I'll look again
  555. [19:01:46] <bewest> none of the notes say what to do when the expected attribute of URI type is absent
  556. [19:02:12] <bewest> although, it does seem to indicate class="url" should only be used on nodes that have a URI type attribute
  557. [19:02:40] <tantek> not necessarily
  558. [19:02:57] <tantek> ok i see that the fallback is not made clearly explicit - let me fix that
  559. [19:03:08] <tantek> the default fallback to "the contents of the element are used for the value."
  560. [19:03:13] <bewest> that's what I thought
  561. [19:03:29] <bewest> I've been trying to explain that, but couldn't find it
  562. [19:03:53] <bewest> so... now I'm curious is a class value of "value" also required to use that fallback, or is that optional?
  563. [19:06:13] <tantek> in practice, class="value" have only been used on elements where the content is taken as the value, but this is worth making explicit as well
  564. [19:06:57] <DerrickPallas> So if I have <a class="email" href="mailto:bar"><span class="value">foo</span></a>
  565. [19:07:07] <DerrickPallas> What is the user's email address?
  566. [19:07:20] <briansuda> it is FOO
  567. [19:07:31] <DerrickPallas> I'm using FOO and then failing back to BAR.
  568. [19:07:33] <DerrickPallas> Thank you.
  569. [19:07:36] <tantek> precisely Derick, that is an example that needs to be explicitly characterized
  570. [19:07:46] <DerrickPallas> Ben is reading over my shoulder. :)
  571. [19:07:50] <briansuda> there is no fallback, you explictly said FOO
  572. [19:07:58] <tantek> the function of "value" is to override which element is inspected for the value of the property
  573. [19:08:16] <bewest> so "value" has a higher precedence
  574. [19:08:18] <DerrickPallas> Sorry. I mean I'm looking for class="value" and failing that using the href.
  575. [19:09:08] <DerrickPallas> Great.
  576. [19:09:12] <bewest> OTOH, "value" is not required to evaluate the contents of the node as the value of the property if the normal means of evaluating it (such as using the value of a URI-type attribute) is missing
  577. [19:09:37] <DerrickPallas> That need to be made explicit in the wiki.
  578. [19:09:48] <bewest> so the two cases in which the contents of the element are used for properties expecting a URI type is when the URI type attribute is missing and when class="value" is present
  579. [19:10:55] * tantek is editing hcard-parsing
  580. [19:11:09] <DerrickPallas> The conflict is between the part of the spec that says "if it's an anchor, use href; if it's an img, use src; if it's an object, use data" and the part that says "use @class='value' instead of text() if it exists"
  581. [19:12:07] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  582. [19:12:31] <bewest> so evaluation order for URI-typed properties are 1.) concatenated contents of elements of class "value", 2.) the value of the URI-type attribute (eg href, src), 3.) alternative attributes (eg "alt"), and finally 4.) failing all previous attempts, the element contents
  583. [19:12:53] <briansuda> 2 & 3 are the same thing
  584. [19:13:01] <briansuda> it depends on the type of element
  585. [19:13:18] <briansuda> you can have:
  586. [19:13:19] <bewest> ok, I'll buy that
  587. [19:13:27] <bewest> I see that, just trying to make it explicit
  588. [19:13:30] <briansuda> <img src="" alt="brian" class="fn photo"/>
  589. [19:13:32] * tantek asks for a pause in the conversation so he can finish updating hcard-parsing which should answer these questions.
  590. [19:13:42] <bewest> 2 and 3 can be coalesced as "the expected attribute"
  591. [19:13:45] <bewest> or something
  592. [19:13:47] <briansuda> the photo will be pulled from @src, the FN from @alt
  593. [19:14:10] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=13049 * Tantek * (+518) parsing hCard properties and values -
  594. [19:15:02] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Connection timed out)
  595. [19:15:26] <bewest> a diagram explaining the order of precedence might be handy
  596. [19:16:02] <tantek> bewest, DerrickPallas, please re-read http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#parsing_hCard_properties_and_values especially the new "In particular" steps at the top
  597. [19:16:59] <bewest> ok
  598. [19:17:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=13050 * Tantek * (-3) descendant/child consistency without changing previously documented semantic
  599. [19:17:57] <DerrickPallas> Does @class="value" apply to all elements?
  600. [19:18:00] <aconbere|work> I recently proposed the code microformat, and I'm not really sure what should be done afterwards. I've collected a list of examples and added them to the code-examples page, and started a discussion page, at this point is it kind of hands off? or should I be contacting people whom I think would have a vested interest in this kind of microformat and asking for their input?
  601. [19:18:05] <aconbere|work> etc.
  602. [19:18:35] <DerrickPallas> Oops, the wiki answers my question.
  603. [19:19:14] <tantek> aconbere - reread http://microformats.org/wiki/process and see how thoroughly you have followed the steps therein
  604. [19:19:26] <tantek> bbiab
  605. [19:19:39] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  606. [19:20:08] <DerrickPallas> So, @class="value" overrides all rules?
  607. [19:20:11] <DerrickPallas> Just to confirm.
  608. [19:20:24] <tantek> it's not an override - there is a precise order to follow
  609. [19:20:48] * tantek (n=tantek@m810f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit ()
  610. [19:21:09] <DerrickPallas> s/overrides/has higher precedence than/g
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  612. [19:23:45] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  613. [19:24:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  614. [19:24:07] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13051 * Aconbere * (+0) Extensibility - fixed a spelling mistake
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  618. [19:30:23] <mfbot> [[code-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13052 * Aconbere * (+258) Base Elements -
  619. [19:34:34] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  621. [19:37:07] <bewest> hmmm is the hcard-parsing page a page to which conservative editing practices should be applied?
  622. [19:37:25] <mfbot> [[code-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13053 * Aconbere * (+252) Base Elements -
  623. [19:37:26] <bewest> I believe "Url Handling" should read "Adressing Hcards"
  624. [19:37:56] <bewest> or just Adressing
  625. [19:37:56] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
  626. [19:38:16] <mfbot> [[code-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13054 * Aconbere * (+44)
  627. [19:38:47] <bewest> hmmm is hcard-parsing normative?
  628. [19:44:17] <DerrickPallas> New problem with value: nesting.
  629. [19:44:29] <bewest> ok, so when class="value", the evaluation should apply only to the nearest parent?
  630. [19:44:39] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  631. [19:44:43] <bewest> DerrickPallas: actually, I'm not sure it matters, since the spec says it's simply a concatenation, anyway
  632. [19:44:52] <bewest> so for the "n" example, it still makes sense
  633. [19:45:23] <DerrickPallas> If I have <div class="n"><span class="family-name"><span class="value">foo</span></span><span class="family-name">bar</span></div>
  634. [19:45:27] <DerrickPallas> What is the value of n?
  635. [19:45:38] <bewest> ok, if we apply value to the nearest ancestor
  636. [19:45:53] <DerrickPallas> One level of nesting should not make a difference.
  637. [19:45:55] * nstrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Undergoing routine maintenance.")
  638. [19:45:58] <bewest> hmmm
  639. [19:46:00] <DerrickPallas> Because then you have to know the entire spec.
  640. [19:46:14] <bewest> why are there two family-name's though?
  641. [19:46:14] <DerrickPallas> Including any additions that are outside the scope of the spec.
  642. [19:46:17] <bewest> that seems weird
  643. [19:46:18] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("backup tim")
  644. [19:46:25] <DerrickPallas> oops
  645. [19:46:31] <DerrickPallas> I meant the first one to be "given-name"
  646. [19:46:33] <bewest> oh ok
  647. [19:46:34] <bewest> ok
  648. [19:46:40] <bewest> so that would make sense
  649. [19:46:44] <bewest> let's say the first is given-name?
  650. [19:47:07] <DerrickPallas> <div class="n"><span class="given-name"><span class="value">foo</span></span><span class="family-name">bar</span></div>
  651. [19:47:08] <bewest> <div class="n"><span class="given-name"><span class="value">foo</span></span><span class="family-name">bar</span></div>
  652. [19:47:12] <DerrickPallas> *snap*
  653. [19:47:27] <bewest> this makes sense to me
  654. [19:47:30] <mkaply> n is an object with a given name and family name - value means nothing in that context, does it?
  655. [19:47:32] <bewest> n is foo bar
  656. [19:47:36] <bewest> yes, it does
  657. [19:47:39] <bewest> given-name is foo
  658. [19:47:41] <mkaply> wait, missed the nesting
  659. [19:47:41] <mkaply> yes
  660. [19:47:43] <DerrickPallas> So in this example, given-name -> "foo", family-name -> "bar", n -> "foo"
  661. [19:47:44] <bewest> family-name is bar
  662. [19:47:49] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  663. [19:47:51] <bewest> n = foo bar
  664. [19:48:01] <bewest> because of n optimization, right?
  665. [19:48:18] <mkaply> thre would be no n optimization in that case. n optimization only happens if there is an fn with no n
  666. [19:48:19] <DerrickPallas> n optimization only takes place if n is not provided, Ben.
  667. [19:48:27] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13055 * BillTurner * (+123) New Examples -
  668. [19:48:29] <bewest> hmm
  669. [19:48:31] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  670. [19:48:52] <bewest> n is special
  671. [19:48:53] <bewest> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#hCard_sub-properties
  672. [19:49:21] <DerrickPallas> My question is why certain properties explicitly list that they can contain a value and others don't if value applies to everything.
  673. [19:49:45] <bewest> hmmm
  674. [19:49:53] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: read this
  675. [19:50:07] <DerrickPallas> The solution that is more general is to use an abbr.
  676. [19:50:14] <mkaply> http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCard.html
  677. [19:50:23] <mkaply> It's the best explanation of the value thing that I have seen
  678. [19:50:24] <bewest> ah, yes, but that can be undesirable, because we want to avoid abusing abbr
  679. [19:50:31] <bewest> and our use of abbr is already controversial
  680. [19:50:36] <DerrickPallas> <abbr class="n" title="foo"><span class="given-name"><span class="value">foo</span></span><span class="family-name">bar</span></abbr>
  681. [19:51:28] <bewest> also, in that last example, it puts more burden on publishers to redundantly list the information, and it is a kind of invisible metadata all of a sudden, right?
  682. [19:51:35] <bewest> are you saying that n should evaluate to "foo" in that case?
  683. [19:51:46] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  684. [19:51:49] <DerrickPallas> Yes.
  685. [19:51:58] <mkaply> I don't think it should.
  686. [19:51:59] <bewest> if so, we've lost the feature of visible metadata
  687. [19:52:11] <bewest> and it's redundant
  688. [19:52:17] <mkaply> n is intended to be a containing element. So if it has contained elements, they get used
  689. [19:52:35] <bewest> yeah, that's true as well
  690. [19:52:39] <bewest> some elements are containing elements
  691. [19:52:45] <DerrickPallas> The problem is nesting.
  692. [19:52:50] <bewest> "There are some hCard properties whose values themselves have structure (AKA structured type value) and are composed of multiple pieces, which we refer to as sub-properties."
  693. [19:53:26] <bewest> not sure what you mean, if you nest the sub properties, the result seems pretty clear to me
  694. [19:53:38] <bewest> you mean when you want it to evaluate to something other than what is specified in the sub properties?
  695. [19:54:00] <DerrickPallas> mkaply: the example in the link you sent seems like bad practice because sort-order does exactly what you'd like.
  696. [19:54:50] <DerrickPallas> Er, what they'd like.
  697. [19:55:32] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  698. [19:55:38] <bewest> I love S5 presentations
  699. [20:01:14] <DerrickPallas> I guess I have a really old version of the hCard test.
  700. [20:08:15] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  701. [20:08:15] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  702. [20:15:37] <TylerR> What's everyone up to today?
  703. [20:22:32] <DerrickPallas> Working on awesome.
  704. [20:23:43] <DerrickPallas> What's up in TylerR land?
  705. [20:24:25] <TylerR> Putting the wraps on my proposal for attendence and monetary assistance to Web Directions North. :)
  706. [20:24:40] <mkaply> do people use uf or mf if they want to abbreviate microformat in filesnames and stuff
  707. [20:24:50] <TylerR> I'm pitching the proposal to one of the company partners in about an hour.
  708. [20:24:53] <DerrickPallas> uf
  709. [20:25:17] <bewest> micro
  710. [20:26:00] * Kilianvalkhof (i=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  711. [20:26:00] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  712. [20:28:21] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  713. [20:28:27] <TylerR> DerrickPallas: I'm looking for monetary funding since the cost is a bit beyond my reach this month. I just bought a Wii and my student loans just kicked in. :)
  714. [20:28:32] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  715. [20:29:28] <TylerR> So I'm hoping the company will foot the bill.
  716. [20:29:51] <DerrickPallas> Here's to that.
  717. [20:32:59] <TylerR> What's nice is I'm driving distance from the conference so it will be a quick drive up there. Just have to deal with the border guard.
  718. [20:38:24] <DerrickPallas> I just go to the free stuff.
  719. [20:42:15] * jnbdzjnbdzjnbdz (n=chatzill@modemcable202.23-37-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  720. [20:42:18] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
  721. [20:42:32] <DerrickPallas> What is the "table headers pattern" and how does it relate to "include pattern"?
  722. [20:46:18] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
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  724. [20:49:02] <bewest> I think this is what is meant by table headers
  725. [20:49:03] <bewest> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-headers
  726. [20:49:43] <bewest> it's an attribute that takes a whitespace delimited set of id references to be used in aiding what the cells the headers are being applied to mean
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  731. [21:15:01] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  732. [21:19:31] <mfbot> [[code-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-examples&diff=0&oldid=13056 * Aconbere * (+6) The Problem -
  733. [21:20:59] * danbri (n=chatzill@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has left #microformats
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  746. [21:55:27] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  750. [22:09:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-89-186.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  751. [22:10:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  753. [22:16:42] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  754. [22:19:45] <TylerR> Hey KevinMarks.
  755. [22:20:01] <TylerR> Looks like I got the "no go" from the Engagement Manager about Web Directions North, because they
  756. [22:20:04] <TylerR> Woops
  757. [22:20:16] <TylerR> Because they're sending some other devs to Mix 07 in April.
  758. [22:20:51] <TylerR> Which unfortunately is put on my MS, which means, sadly that everything will have a lovely slant to it and be all about their products and nothing to do with Microformats or open web standards. :\
  759. [22:21:10] <TylerR> </rant>
  760. [22:22:07] <aconbere|work> which should be an excelent oportunity to grill them in public during Q&A
  761. [22:24:01] * TylerR nods. That is if I get to go to Mix 07, which I've just asked to be considered to join the trip goers.
  762. [22:24:36] <TylerR> And believe me. I'll be taking question requests from you all. :)
  763. [22:30:12] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@bas10-toronto12-1096625312.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #microformats
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  769. [22:45:13] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  770. [22:45:42] <TylerR> Hey there Mr_Elusive.
  771. [22:50:25] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-30755953c3f4c771) Quit ("Leaving")
  772. [22:52:22] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  773. [22:52:22] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  774. [22:52:22] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  775. [22:52:28] <lucasvo> hcard is 100% compatible to vcard, isn't it?
  776. [22:52:42] * pecus_ (n=pecus@82.155.55.72) has joined #microformats
  777. [22:55:31] <TylerR> Any suggestions on a good way to "introduce" the concept of uf to a very MS-centric company? I'm wanting to hold a uf session next month at one of our bi-weekly dev meetings.
  778. [22:58:20] <TylerR> One thing I'd like to do is team up with our primary SharePoint developer and work with him outside of work getting a uf plug-in for SharePoint working.
  779. [23:00:32] * pecus (n=pecus@bl6-57-41.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  780. [23:00:50] <aconbere|work> TylerR: show them the LiveWhatever that Ray Ozzie demoed :)
  781. [23:00:55] <aconbere|work> "look even MS is into it"
  782. [23:03:10] <TylerR> Yeah, I remember Bill mentioning something about that.
  783. [23:03:28] <TylerR> http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2006/03/we-need-microformats-bill-gates
  784. [23:03:31] <davecardwell> TylerR: http://microformats.org/blog/2006/03/20/bill-gates-at-mix06-we-need-microformats/
  785. [23:03:34] <davecardwell> heh
  786. [23:03:38] <TylerR> Ah there we go.
  787. [23:03:39] <TylerR> :)
  788. [23:04:03] <TylerR> Ah Mix 06, we'll be going to Mix 07. I'm trying to get a slot to go.
  789. [23:05:59] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  791. [23:06:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  792. [23:25:34] <DerrickPallas> I think the hcard tests need two more xml:base examples.
  793. [23:25:52] <DerrickPallas> Because xml:base is inherited.
  794. [23:26:50] <DerrickPallas> Something like <html xml:base="http://foo.com"><div xml:base="http://bar.com"><a href="/home/blah">site</a></div></html>
  795. [23:27:00] <DerrickPallas> the link should resolve to http://bar.com/home/blah
  796. [23:30:38] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Success)
  797. [23:39:02] * SteveGanz (n=steve@64.74.221.22) has joined #microformats
  798. [23:44:16] <TylerR> Hey there SteveGanz!
  799. [23:49:05] <SteveGanz> Hi TylerR
  800. [23:49:14] <TylerR> How was the weekend for you?
  801. [23:49:17] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has left #microformats
  802. [23:54:40] <TylerR> SteveGanz: I'd love to talk later tonight with you about some uf stuff if you'll be around ~11pm PST?
  803. [23:55:10] <SteveGanz> I should be around.
  804. [23:55:48] <TylerR> Great. I'm off for a while, till later!
  805. [23:55:50] * TylerR waves.
  806. [23:55:58] <SteveGanz> See you then.
  807. [23:56:01] * TylerR (n=tylerr@68.178.101.38) Quit ("Leaving")
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