IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-01-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:02] * SteveGanz (n=steve@64.74.221.22) Quit ()
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  3. [00:07:14] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
  4. [00:08:46] <therealadam> anyone here used LinkedIn's hResume data yet?
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  10. [00:43:15] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=13057 * DerrickPallas * (+2) added link to rel-tag page
  11. [00:43:56] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=13058 * DerrickPallas * (+2) that's what i get for not hitting preview
  12. [00:44:22] <DerrickPallas> not i
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  16. [01:06:48] <mfbot> [[xpn-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xpn-examples&diff=0&oldid=13059 * Steve Ganz * (-2) business community sites (LinkedIn) -
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  24. [01:28:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  25. [01:28:24] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  26. [01:29:05] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13060 * SoupEnvy * (-265) Examples with some problems -
  27. [01:29:25] <tantek> that took a bit longer than expected
  28. [01:30:11] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13061 * SoupEnvy * (+188) New Examples -
  29. [01:30:30] <bewest> is the -new list up and running yet?
  30. [01:30:39] <bewest> we've got quite a crowd that belong there, I think
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  41. [02:49:15] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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  45. [03:05:26] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13062 * Steve Ganz * (+193) Examples in the wild - Adding LinkedIn's Public Profiles
  46. [03:05:52] <mfbot> [[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=13063 * Steve Ganz * (-33) Examples in the wild -
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  57. [05:03:08] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  58. [05:03:08] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  59. [05:12:22] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  60. [05:13:13] <aconbere|mobile> at what point to people generally find community involvment in working on new microformats?
  61. [05:13:49] <DerrickPallas> when people use it
  62. [05:13:56] <aconbere|mobile> heh
  63. [05:14:07] <DerrickPallas> microformats are what everyone was doing anyway, written down
  64. [05:16:05] <aconbere|mobile> I'm not sure I see how that's relevent to getting people involved in writting it down.
  65. [05:17:42] <DerrickPallas> right now i just decode them
  66. [05:17:55] <DerrickPallas> and only if i can find a significant amount of them
  67. [05:25:10] * tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-105-208-200.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit ()
  68. [05:25:13] <mfbot> [[User:Aconbere]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Aconbere * Aconbere * (+217)
  69. [05:26:34] <mfbot> [[User:Aconbere]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Aconbere&diff=0&oldid=13064 * Aconbere * (+107)
  70. [05:27:00] <mfbot> [[User:Aconbere]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Aconbere&diff=0&oldid=13065 * Aconbere * (+0) Code Microformat -
  71. [05:27:31] <mfbot> [[User:Aconbere]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Aconbere&diff=0&oldid=13066 * Aconbere * (+6) Code Microformat -
  72. [05:27:52] <mfbot> [[User:Aconbere]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Aconbere&diff=0&oldid=13067 * Aconbere * (+3) Code Microformat -
  73. [05:27:54] <aconbere|mobile> ugh
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  76. [05:41:35] <evanpro> So, this blog post: http://www.vecosys.com/2007/01/29/wikipedia-adopts-microformats/
  77. [05:41:51] <evanpro> ...says that "Wikipedia has just announced that are also looking at how they can use Microformats on Wikipedia"
  78. [05:41:57] <evanpro> I can't seem to find any such announcement
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  83. [06:01:19] <mfbot> [[code-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-examples&diff=0&oldid=13068 * Aconbere * (+535) Real-World Examples -
  84. [06:01:56] <aconbere|mobile> does anyone hav a good example "strawman" schema?
  85. [06:01:58] <aconbere|mobile> have
  86. [06:15:09] * TylerR (n=tylerr@c-24-17-63-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  87. [06:15:09] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social at http://mappuccino.com
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  96. [06:54:48] <jibot> veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
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  98. [07:04:16] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  99. [07:04:16] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  100. [07:08:40] * DerrickPallas_ (n=chatzill@209.237.236.227) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  101. [07:20:52] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  102. [07:39:23] <Hixie> any atom community people here?
  103. [07:42:48] <KevinMarks> up to a point
  104. [07:43:05] <KevinMarks> I am on atom-dev though I haven't read it in a long while
  105. [08:01:20] <KevinMarks> what was the question, Hixie? I may be able to answer it, or else I can track them down
  106. [08:01:31] * iand (n=iand@213.205.242.82) has joined #microformats
  107. [08:01:31] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  108. [08:03:08] <Hixie> KevinMarks: i need to work out what the official way of detecting an atom feed in the absence of authoratative type information is
  109. [08:03:56] <KevinMarks> hm, official versus what the universal feed parser does?
  110. [08:10:46] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  111. [08:16:02] <KevinMarks> feedparser looks for the namespace 'http://www.w3.org/2005/atom'
  112. [08:21:05] <KevinMarks> <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
  113. [08:23:20] <KevinMarks> http://feedparser.org/tests/wellformed/ has a remarkably thorough set of testcases
  114. [08:25:45] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  115. [08:25:45] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  116. [08:36:07] * TylerR (n=tylerr@c-24-17-63-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  117. [08:36:07] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social at http://mappuccino.com
  118. [08:45:24] <TylerR> Evening all.
  119. [08:49:08] * tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-169-70-203.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  120. [08:49:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  121. [08:49:08] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  122. [08:49:23] <TylerR> Evening tantek.
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  127. [09:03:40] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  128. [09:03:40] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  129. [09:08:42] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  130. [09:08:42] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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  133. [09:14:57] <Hixie> KevinMarks: thanks
  134. [09:15:05] <Hixie> KevinMarks: yes, i meant official
  135. [09:15:17] <Hixie> KevinMarks: i'm trying to spec out what HTML browsers should do to detect Atom vs text/html
  136. [09:15:49] <Hixie> browsers today seem to use some pseudo-XML parse mode to skip comments and DOCTYPEs and then do regexp against the first start tag they see
  137. [09:16:17] <KevinMarks> I think looking for a feed element wiht that xmlns attribute is good for atom 1.0
  138. [09:16:58] <KevinMarks> ironically, It took em a while to test as Safari was not letting me view source on the xml, so I had to go curl it
  139. [09:17:26] <Hixie> i'm not sure what "looking for a feed element" really means though
  140. [09:17:39] <KevinMarks> <feed>
  141. [09:17:40] <Hixie> at the individual byte level
  142. [09:17:51] <Hixie> does <!--<feed>--><html> match?
  143. [09:18:47] <Hixie> how about <?xml><feed xmlns="...">?><html> ? note that in text/html, the first element there is a <feed> element, but in text/xml, the first element is a <html> (and the PI is malformed)
  144. [09:18:54] * KevinMarks gets the temptaton to say not 80:20
  145. [09:19:22] <Hixie> oh i'm not saying they should or shouldn't match
  146. [09:19:23] * JMulder_ (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  147. [09:19:34] <Hixie> i'm saying i don't know what it means to "look for" the element in this case
  148. [09:19:40] <Hixie> and since i have to define it, i need to work out what it means :-)
  149. [09:19:55] <KevinMarks> well, feedparser.org's testcases are a decent kickoff, but it is tricky, agreed
  150. [09:19:59] <Hixie> i assume from your answer, though, that there is no official way to detect Atom
  151. [09:20:17] <KevinMarks> I'm a messy pragmatist...
  152. [09:24:41] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
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  154. [09:34:35] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13069 * Pogotc * (+149) New Examples -
  155. [09:35:06] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  156. [09:35:06] * JMulder_ is now known as JMulder
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  160. [09:45:36] <mfbot> [[User:Christoph]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Christoph * Christoph * (+476) Added introduction
  161. [09:50:17] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=13070 * AndyMabbett * (+1) white-space handling - sp.
  162. [09:58:18] <mfbot> [[User talk:PeNGo]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:PeNGo * AndyMabbett * (+145) welcome
  163. [10:00:56] * Cloud (n=Cloud@Srvgal18-vm5.nuigalway.ie) Quit ("Lost terminal")
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  165. [10:01:10] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  166. [10:01:48] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
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  168. [10:20:20] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13071 * AndyMabbett * (+703) Pengo - response
  169. [10:20:24] * tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-105-208-200.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  170. [10:20:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  171. [10:20:24] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  172. [10:20:51] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13072 * AndyMabbett * (+25) Response - dab hgeader
  173. [10:26:18] * hlb (i=lbhsiuh@alumni.csie.nctu.edu.tw) Quit ("Lost terminal")
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  175. [10:30:40] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  176. [10:34:33] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13073 * AndyMabbett * (+87) References - How to read a taxobox
  177. [10:36:24] <mfbot> [[User talk:Christoph]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:Christoph * AndyMabbett * (+190) Welcome & species microformat
  178. [10:58:55] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  179. [10:58:55] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  180. [10:59:03] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  181. [10:59:21] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  182. [11:03:51] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  183. [11:05:32] * Ronnos (n=chatzill@s5593d4e3.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  184. [11:05:32] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
  185. [11:25:55] * iwaim_ (i=iwai@gateway.alib.jp) Quit (Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision))
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  187. [11:59:29] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  188. [12:35:30] * bengee wonders about the scope of XFN rels
  189. [12:37:03] <bengee> Is it always te page, or is there any way to create an aggregated page about different relations among people?
  190. [12:37:47] <bengee> (e.g. for a family tree)
  191. [12:45:10] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=13074 * AndyMabbett * (+293) Issues - Geo as d-m-s
  192. [12:45:36] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=13075 * AndyMabbett * (+14) Issues - {{OpenIssue}}
  193. [12:46:42] <bengee> hmm, looks like xfn should not be used in content chunks that could be republished somewhere else...
  194. [12:50:04] * corebasis (n=henningv@80-219-210-158.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #microformats
  195. [12:53:07] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=13076 * AndyMabbett * (+73) vCard errata
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  198. [13:11:59] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=13077 * Tantek * (+1)
  199. [13:12:01] * tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-105-208-200.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit ()
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  201. [13:15:58] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  205. [13:18:37] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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  212. [13:52:36] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  214. [14:08:09] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  220. [15:24:20] <mfbot> [[code-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13078 * Aconbere * (+26) Elements that come up often in practice -
  221. [15:34:42] * edsu (n=esummers@208.68.173.106) has joined #microformats
  222. [15:34:43] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  223. [15:36:41] * Charl (n=Charl@196.21.192.15) has joined #microformats
  224. [15:36:41] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  225. [15:46:23] * danja (n=danja@host81-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  226. [15:46:23] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  229. [15:47:28] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  230. [15:48:47] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-62bd358423fa9369) has joined #microformats
  231. [15:48:47] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  235. [15:53:06] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  236. [15:53:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  239. [15:57:54] <Revolt-Puppy> Hello, guys.
  240. [15:58:17] <Revolt-Puppy> How is "role" supposed to be used in an hCard?
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  243. [15:59:46] <trovster> <p>Hi, my name is <em class="fn">joe bloggs</em> and I'm a <span class="role">web developer</span></p>
  244. [16:00:04] <Revolt-Puppy> So what's the difference between title and role?
  245. [16:00:21] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  248. [16:01:46] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  249. [16:02:13] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  250. [16:02:13] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  251. [16:02:42] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  252. [16:05:24] <Revolt-Puppy> Right now I have this:
  253. [16:05:25] <Revolt-Puppy> Rey was sworn in as the
  254. [16:05:27] <Revolt-Puppy> <span class="title">undersecretary for natural resources and environment</span> by Agriculture Secretary Ann M. Veneman on October 2, 2001. In this position, Rey
  255. [16:05:28] <Revolt-Puppy> <span class="role">oversees the
  256. [16:05:30] <Revolt-Puppy> <span class="org">
  257. [16:05:31] <Revolt-Puppy> <span class="organization-name">U.S. Department of Agriculture</span>'s
  258. [16:05:33] <Revolt-Puppy> <span class="organization-unit">Forest Service and Natural Resource Conservation Service</span>
  259. [16:05:34] <Revolt-Puppy> </span>.
  260. [16:05:36] <Revolt-Puppy> </span>
  261. [16:06:06] <Revolt-Puppy> Is that a correct use of "role?"
  262. [16:10:07] * briansuda (n=briansud@dsl-219-147.hive.is) Quit ()
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  269. [16:33:14] * hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) has joined #microformats
  270. [16:33:14] <jibot> hsivonen is a CS student and software developer in Helsinki, Finland and has a site at http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
  271. [16:33:42] <hsivonen> ooh. the bot knows me already. :-)
  272. [16:34:07] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  273. [16:35:09] <hsivonen> what's the status of hCite?
  274. [16:36:17] <hsivonen> I can find research about prior art but no spec for hCite itself. is hCite yet to be specified?
  275. [16:36:21] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  276. [16:36:22] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  277. [16:37:12] <hsivonen> I wrote a .bib-based bibliography generator for XHTML the other day and am wondering if I should do something differently to cater to hCite
  278. [16:37:30] <hsivonen> basically, I put bibtex field names in classes
  279. [16:38:20] <hsivonen> and for the value of author and editor, I separate only the last two names with " and " and use ", " as the separator otherwise
  280. [16:42:34] <mkaply> Revolt-Puppy: I think that's pretty good
  281. [16:47:50] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  282. [16:47:50] <jibot> redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
  283. [16:57:14] * DerrickPallas (n=chatzill@209.237.236.227) has joined #microformats
  284. [16:57:35] <DerrickPallas> Morning, all..
  285. [16:57:41] * mkaply didn't think dtstart was required in a vevent...
  286. [16:58:07] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  287. [16:58:08] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  288. [16:58:58] <DerrickPallas> When I'm pulling vcard->adr, what are the parsing rules? I.e., does adr have a value at all or just it's subproperties? Is it only a composite of it's subproperties?
  289. [16:59:47] * whafro (n=whafro@dsl092-150-081.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  290. [16:59:47] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  291. [17:00:09] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: If there are any adr sub properties, use them.
  292. [17:00:25] <DerrickPallas> And discard the space between?
  293. [17:00:30] <mkaply> IF there are no subproperties at all, take the textContent of the adr as the addresses
  294. [17:00:40] <DerrickPallas> Ok, great! Thanks mkaply.
  295. [17:00:43] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: If there are subproperties, you should construct using the sub properties and ignore everything else
  296. [17:01:02] <DerrickPallas> That makes my life a lot easier.
  297. [17:01:04] <mfbot> [[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13079 * SMulcahy * (+656)
  298. [17:01:37] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: are you doing the parsing in Javascript?
  299. [17:02:32] * TylerR (n=tylerr@68.178.101.38) has joined #microformats
  300. [17:02:32] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social at http://mappuccino.com
  301. [17:02:52] <DerrickPallas> No
  302. [17:02:54] <DerrickPallas> XSLT.
  303. [17:03:05] <DerrickPallas> I'm moving it into a very specific format.
  304. [17:03:12] <TylerR> ?jibot forget me
  305. [17:03:50] <TylerR> ?forget me
  306. [17:03:50] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  307. [17:03:54] <TylerR> Bah
  308. [17:04:03] <TylerR> ?forgetme
  309. [17:04:03] <jibot> I have expunged TylerR from my mind
  310. [17:04:06] <TylerR> There we go.
  311. [17:04:08] <TylerR> Sorry about that.
  312. [17:04:32] <TylerR> ?def TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
  313. [17:04:32] <jibot> TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
  314. [17:05:59] <TylerR> What's everyone up to this morning/day/evening?
  315. [17:07:01] <aconbere|work> still trying to get people talking about my proposal :)
  316. [17:08:11] <TylerR> How's that going?
  317. [17:08:25] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  318. [17:08:32] <aconbere|work> hmmm
  319. [17:09:52] <TylerR> That good eh? ;)
  320. [17:10:26] <aconbere|work> well I think 5 people have commented on the mailing list
  321. [17:10:45] <aconbere|work> which I don't have a very good frame of refrence to judge by
  322. [17:11:53] <aconbere|work> I'm still pretty much the only person who has written anything on the wiki pages
  323. [17:12:24] <TylerR> Ah, well, I'd imagine just keep writing, and you'll get more and more people reading.
  324. [17:12:34] <TylerR> Are you keeping a development blog at all?
  325. [17:13:35] <aconbere|work> nah
  326. [17:13:51] <aconbere|work> I'm just working mostly in the context of the wiki
  327. [17:14:19] <TylerR> Ah righto.
  328. [17:15:30] * Charl (n=Charl@196.21.192.15) Quit ()
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  330. [17:17:52] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  331. [17:19:35] <aconbere|work> It just feels a bit odd to walk through the "process" without feedback
  332. [17:19:45] <aconbere|work> the process was clearly set up to have feedback the whole way though
  333. [17:19:48] <aconbere|work> through
  334. [17:20:08] <aconbere|work> and with this little talk, there isn't any way for me to tell if I'm going down all sorts of wrong paths
  335. [17:22:13] * TylerR nods.
  336. [17:22:34] <TylerR> Maybe one of the staff can help guide you if they have some time.
  337. [17:22:47] <TylerR> ?forgetme
  338. [17:22:47] <jibot> I have expunged TylerR from my mind
  339. [17:25:25] <DerrickPallas> Well, I think the problem is this: something has to gain traction first.
  340. [17:25:47] <aconbere|work> exactly
  341. [17:25:49] <DerrickPallas> In order to cut down on the noise, a new format has to be really well researched and fight for it's right.
  342. [17:26:13] <aconbere|work> but to do that a new format is supposed to follow the process
  343. [17:26:19] <aconbere|work> which is supposed to involve feedback
  344. [17:26:22] <DerrickPallas> It has to be in use right now and just need a couple of semantic tweaks, which does two things.
  345. [17:26:28] <aconbere|work> but wont get any unless it's already done
  346. [17:26:38] <DerrickPallas> One: it means that the format is probably good, not just a good idea, because it is already evolving.
  347. [17:27:03] <DerrickPallas> Two: it helps spur adoption because you're just asking people to change a keyword or two, not rewrite paradigms.
  348. [17:27:38] <aconbere|work> I think that's not true of many of the micro formats
  349. [17:27:40] <aconbere|work> but oh well
  350. [17:27:55] <aconbere|work> (take hCard, or hResume, or the hProduct proposal)
  351. [17:28:11] <aconbere|work> all of those are built on behaviours on the web not in use
  352. [17:28:25] <aconbere|work> hResume is MUCH more than a couple of semantic tweaks
  353. [17:28:30] <aconbere|work> so it hCard, and hProduct
  354. [17:28:55] <aconbere|work> no one was organizing their data like that for web digestion, because there was nothing to digest it in that state.
  355. [17:30:43] <TylerR> How about a format describing formats? **chuckles**
  356. [17:32:04] * TylerR really needs to work on his eHumor.
  357. [17:32:11] <aconbere|work> heh
  358. [17:32:37] <TylerR> It's an unfortunate situation.
  359. [17:36:28] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  360. [17:36:28] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  361. [17:37:01] <aconbere|work> DerrickPallas: in all those cases it wasn't about making a couple of sematic tweaks, but about organizing a set of common behaviours, and publishing a standard way to meet most common goals.
  362. [17:37:41] <DerrickPallas> That takes a lot more work.
  363. [17:37:46] <aconbere|work> It's a chicken/egg arguement, you can't have people already organizing a complex set of information similarly without a common statement.
  364. [17:37:49] <DerrickPallas> At lot of things "would be nice" but aren't all practical.
  365. [17:37:58] <DerrickPallas> If it makes you feel better, I'm working on a format right now.
  366. [17:38:07] <DerrickPallas> And doing a ton of work to find examples.
  367. [17:38:07] <aconbere|work> I don't feel bad :)
  368. [17:38:30] <aconbere|work> yeah I dig up a few every day
  369. [17:38:55] <aconbere|work> but like I said, I think more than examples (because my use case is everywhere), I need criticism
  370. [17:39:11] <aconbere|work> and there doesn't seem to be much of the community doing that to new formats.
  371. [17:39:17] <aconbere|work> or new proposals.
  372. [17:41:51] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  373. [17:43:38] * ryanlowe (n=blog@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  374. [17:43:38] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  375. [17:44:44] <DerrickPallas> That's evolution for you.
  376. [17:45:01] <DerrickPallas> It takes a lot of momemtum.
  377. [17:46:26] <DerrickPallas> Chesterton said the same thing about ideas 100 years ago: "Tradition is the democracy of the dead." Anything that is tradition has withsood the fires of time.
  378. [17:47:57] <mfbot> [[code-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-examples&diff=0&oldid=13080 * Aconbere * (-112)
  379. [17:48:33] <mfbot> [[code-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=code-examples&diff=0&oldid=13081 * Aconbere * (-2) Real-World Examples -
  380. [17:49:52] * iand (n=iand@89.192.23.168) has joined #microformats
  381. [17:49:52] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  382. [17:50:35] <TylerR> DerrickPallas: So basically the core formats are most likely going to see more users participating in their refinement, expansion rather than the community wanting to participate in newer proposed formats?
  383. [17:51:00] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  384. [17:51:00] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  385. [17:51:00] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  386. [17:51:23] <TylerR> Hey morning tantek.
  387. [17:52:26] <aconbere|work> TylerR: I think that will always be the case, but in this situation what I'm seeing is a lack of "drivers" or people who poke arround the proposals, make comments, offer criticisms, or just imbue their much greater knowledge having worked on the already accepted formats.
  388. [17:52:45] * TylerR nods.
  389. [17:54:17] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  390. [17:54:25] <TylerR> I think that has to do with a lot of the knowledgeable people having interest in the refinement/expansion of the core formats they helped to establish. Somewhat like caring for your own child and making sure they grow up good, they won't necessarily want to adopt a new child and leave the other. Though I could be totally off with that. :)
  391. [17:55:22] <DerrickPallas> Tyler: I think that's the way the uf community is structured.
  392. [17:56:10] <aconbere|work> I know one of the proposals on the mailing list was to start a new list of proposals
  393. [17:56:17] <aconbere|work> to weed out the noise
  394. [17:56:18] <DerrickPallas> Tyler: What format are you trying to drive?
  395. [17:56:52] <TylerR> Oh, none right now DerrickPallas. I was just giving my opinion to aconbere|work about how I think the uf community works. :)
  396. [17:57:04] <aconbere|work> my fear with that would be that this would just further alienate the new format process form those that are involved in the acceptance and refinement of microformats.
  397. [17:57:12] <DerrickPallas> Oh, let me redirect then.
  398. [17:57:21] <DerrickPallas> aconbere: What format are you trying to drive?
  399. [17:57:21] <TylerR> :)
  400. [17:57:34] <TylerR> DerrickPallas: I've only just "found" uf about 2 weeks ago.
  401. [17:58:04] <aconbere|work> DerrickPallas: I'm working on a source code format.
  402. [17:58:18] * jcw9 (n=jonathan@WILLIAMSJ01.ADMIN.ED.NYU.EDU) has joined #microformats
  403. [17:58:18] <jibot> jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
  404. [17:58:18] <aconbere|work> http://microformats.org/wiki/code-examples
  405. [17:58:19] <DerrickPallas> aconbere: What does that entail?
  406. [17:58:33] <TylerR> So I'm building up my knowledge and understanding of it, then I'm going to be attempting to work with one of our SharePoint developers in putting out a uf plug-in.
  407. [17:58:37] <bewest> a lot of this takes time, btw... formats don't pop up over the course of a few days, or even a few weeks
  408. [17:59:01] <aconbere|work> DerrickPallas: the idea would be to collect import source code details into a collection, authors, language, language version, license, etc.
  409. [17:59:05] <bewest> it takes months of effort to shape an idea into research and analysis necessary to propose an actual format
  410. [17:59:06] <aconbere|work> important
  411. [17:59:16] <aconbere|work> bewest: oh I understand that
  412. [17:59:21] <DerrickPallas> Shouldn't we just ask people to use <code>. That's what the element is for.
  413. [17:59:34] <bewest> surprisingly, that time frame is much much shorter than other methodologies to create formats
  414. [17:59:42] <bewest> yes
  415. [17:59:51] <bewest> <code style="whitespace: pre;">...</code>
  416. [17:59:58] <DerrickPallas> hCard can do half of that information, rel-licence the other half. And rel-tag can indicate the language.
  417. [18:00:01] <bewest> if you want to signify the license, use rel-license
  418. [18:00:08] <bewest> if you want to specify the language, use rel-tag
  419. [18:00:23] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  420. [18:00:30] <bewest> building blocks are already available, it's just a matter of starting to use them
  421. [18:00:37] <DerrickPallas> [Ben is cheating. :) He's the next cube over.]
  422. [18:00:40] <bewest> and advocating their use to people who are publishing code samples
  423. [18:00:55] <TylerR> I definitely think with the current formats in place, you can build very custom modules.
  424. [18:01:22] <aconbere|work> right, so I guess the question is whether or not the collection of elments into a kind of "collection of microformats" is in and of itself worth formalizing.
  425. [18:01:55] <TylerR> Just introduce a taxonomy that utilizes certain formats/attributes and you've got yourself a powerful module right there. Customizable, expandable, retractable, etc.
  426. [18:04:57] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  427. [18:06:26] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  428. [18:10:30] * iand (n=iand@89.192.23.168) Quit (Success)
  429. [18:12:31] <aconbere|work> I think that the reason why something like this in particular could use formalizing a collection of microformats, would be digestion. That is, source code doesn't do much good stuck in a website, it needs to be copied and pasted into an application that understands it, then compiled or interpreted. With the formalization of a format, digesting source code, storing it, testing it, and running it, becomes signifigantly easier.
  430. [18:17:44] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  431. [18:32:51] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  432. [18:37:16] <mkaply> in an hResume, how am I supposed to know which vcard is the hResume vcard, and which are vcards for affiliation?
  433. [18:40:34] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit ()
  434. [18:41:47] <Ronnos> use contact for the hResume vcard, and experience for jobtitle/position or affiliation
  435. [18:41:49] <Ronnos> :)
  436. [18:42:32] <Ronnos> or not :S
  437. [18:44:03] <Ronnos> mkaply, you can use class="affiliation vcard" if you want to insert an vcard for an affiliation?
  438. [18:44:31] <mkaply> Ronnos: the question is who on earth thought it was logical to name one of the properties in the hResume the same as a microformat name.
  439. [18:44:39] <mkaply> That's just dumb. Should have been something like class="contact vcard"
  440. [18:44:57] <mkaply> because you can't programmitcally search the hresume for the contact information.
  441. [18:45:28] <mkaply> But that's ok because none of the hResume's I've found in the wild are "correct" anyway
  442. [18:45:55] <Ronnos> that can be fun too :)
  443. [18:48:06] * whafro (n=whafro@dsl092-150-081.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  444. [18:48:29] * mkaply will call it a contact in his JS structure.
  445. [18:48:29] <Ronnos> ah, i see :)
  446. [18:48:43] <Ronnos> resume owner :P
  447. [18:48:44] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) Quit ()
  448. [18:49:21] <Ronnos> contact seems weird to me also, cause an affiliation can be a contact too
  449. [18:51:01] <mkaply> Ronnos: true. But in a resume, the information to get a hold of you is called the "contact infomration", isn't it?
  450. [18:51:52] <Ronnos> well, as you say, it "my contact information"
  451. [18:51:54] <bewest> hcard is for "contact information"
  452. [18:52:02] <bewest> all hcards are contacts
  453. [18:53:34] <Ronnos> uhuh :)
  454. [18:53:46] <mkaply> bewest: true. So someone needs to come up with a better classname for personal contact info in an hResume. vcard is just wrong
  455. [18:53:51] <mkaply> my_vcard would be better
  456. [18:53:54] <mkaply> resume_vcard
  457. [18:53:56] <Ronnos> hm hm
  458. [18:53:58] <bewest> vcard tells you it's an hcard though
  459. [18:54:02] <bewest> so vcard is correct
  460. [18:54:08] <DerrickPallas> It needs to be vcard + something
  461. [18:54:18] <Ronnos> yes, but does it tell its the vcard of the resume owner?
  462. [18:54:34] <DerrickPallas> class="vcard contact"
  463. [18:54:46] <Ronnos> thats mkaply's "problem", or not mkaply?
  464. [18:54:55] <mkaply> Yes. There needs to be something besides vcard by itself. Think of it programmatically.
  465. [18:55:00] <bewest> it's easy to tell the difference
  466. [18:55:10] <bewest> the owner's is vcard with an address element
  467. [18:55:16] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  468. [18:55:16] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  469. [18:55:19] <bewest> affiliations are vcard with "affiliation"
  470. [18:55:28] <bewest> contact info. required. Must use hCard. Should use <address> + hCard.
  471. [18:55:29] <Ronnos> IF you use the adress element ofcourse
  472. [18:55:35] <bewest> affiliations. optional. the class name affiliation along with an hcard of the organization
  473. [18:55:39] <mkaply> bewest: heck no. the companies they worked for could be in experience with hcalendars
  474. [18:56:12] <mkaply> Programmatically, the way this works is you look through the document for elements with a certain class name
  475. [18:56:13] <bewest> hmm?
  476. [18:56:20] <bewest> what are you trying to solve?
  477. [18:56:31] <mkaply> how do I find the vcard in the resume that corresponds to the owner of the resume?
  478. [18:56:34] <bewest> I thought you had a problem identifying which vcard is for the owner of the document
  479. [18:56:37] <bewest> that's easy
  480. [18:56:39] <mkaply> I can't just search through the document for all vcard
  481. [18:56:44] <bewest> it's 1.) the vcard that isn't an affiliation
  482. [18:56:49] <bewest> 2.) the vcard in an address
  483. [18:57:12] <mkaply> no. because an hcard in an experience would not have an affiliation and would have an address
  484. [18:57:21] <bewest> ?
  485. [18:57:24] <bewest> <address>?
  486. [18:57:36] <bewest> <address> is intended to contain the contact information for the owner/caretaker of the document
  487. [18:57:41] <mkaply> address is suggested
  488. [18:57:50] <bewest> no, it says "SHOULD"
  489. [18:57:53] <Ronnos> yes
  490. [18:57:54] <mkaply> contact:: Current contact info in an hCard. Should use <address> with hCard when possible.
  491. [18:57:57] <bewest> which is a bit stronger than a suggestion
  492. [18:58:07] <bewest> it's not MUST because it's not required for conformance
  493. [18:58:18] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  494. [18:58:19] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  495. [18:58:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  496. [18:58:28] <bewest> SHOULD and MUST have specific meanings, and the meaning of SHOULD is not equivalent to a suggestion
  497. [18:59:09] <mkaply> what would be wrong with creating a class element like "contact" that is tied to the vcard? Giving it specific meaning? We have education, experience, affiliation.
  498. [18:59:23] <bewest> it's unnecessary
  499. [18:59:25] <Ronnos> should: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/should
  500. [18:59:29] <gsnedders> (the specific meaning is defined in RFC2119 <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt>)
  501. [18:59:30] <mkaply> It should be easy to go to the document say, give me the node with this class name and boom I have the contact information
  502. [18:59:34] <bewest> thanks gsnedders
  503. [18:59:52] <bewest> mkaply: it is that easy... you simply look for <address>
  504. [18:59:58] <gsnedders> Ronnos: the spec says that certain words are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119
  505. [19:00:09] <Ronnos> SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
  506. [19:00:10] <mkaply> bewest: Couldn't there be more than one address in the document?
  507. [19:00:11] <Ronnos> may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
  508. [19:00:12] <Ronnos> particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
  509. [19:00:14] <Ronnos> carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
  510. [19:00:19] <mkaply> what if they used address items for the vcards in their experience?
  511. [19:00:27] <bewest> mkaply: "what if"
  512. [19:00:36] <bewest> why would someone do that?
  513. [19:00:45] <bewest> the burden is to prove that people DO do that, and that it is a problem
  514. [19:00:53] <mkaply> why wouldn't they. The address element is intended to represent any address.
  515. [19:00:57] <bewest> no
  516. [19:00:58] <bewest> it's not
  517. [19:01:01] <bewest> that's a common misconception
  518. [19:01:12] <bewest> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-ADDRESS
  519. [19:01:35] <bewest> The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact information for a document or a major part of a document such as a form. This element often appears at the beginning or end of a document.
  520. [19:01:42] <mkaply> bewest: interstesting. I did not know that.
  521. [19:02:15] <bewest> the burden of proof is to supply evidence that a case /does/ exist
  522. [19:02:16] <gsnedders> Ronnos: "The key words 'MUST', 'MUST NOT', 'REQUIRED', 'SHALL', 'SHALL NOT', 'SHOULD', 'SHOULD NOT', 'RECOMMENDED', 'MAY', and 'OPTIONAL' in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. However, for readability, these words do not appear in all uppercase letters in this specification." - Section 4 of HTML 4.01
  523. [19:02:38] <Ronnos> yup
  524. [19:02:41] <Ronnos> noticed that
  525. [19:03:27] <mkaply> so in http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume
  526. [19:03:47] <mkaply> The fact that contact in Field details is not in a monospaced font is the clue that it is not a real classname?
  527. [19:03:58] <bewest> in other words, when SHOULD is used, there may be a legitimate case for not complying, but undefined behaviour may result
  528. [19:04:20] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  529. [19:05:12] <bewest> no, it is a classname
  530. [19:05:30] <bewest> so there are several ways you can know which vcard to use for the contact information of this hresume
  531. [19:05:34] <Ronnos> bewest, so if your resume is on a page you do not own, it's possible that there is a chance for undefined behaviour?
  532. [19:06:02] <Ronnos> yikes, that was a weird line :S
  533. [19:06:11] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  534. [19:06:11] <bewest> those methods are 1.) look for the vcard used with <address>. 2.) look for a vcard that also has contact, eg class="vcard contact". 3.) look for the vcard without a class name of affiliation
  535. [19:06:32] <bewest> Ronnos: I dunno... that's a big "IF" right? which is why SHOULD is used
  536. [19:06:39] <mkaply> bewest: got it :)
  537. [19:06:44] <bewest> predicting the future is difficult and error prone
  538. [19:06:50] * mkaply notes that linkedin doesn't use any address elements
  539. [19:07:08] <bewest> mkaply: then some advocacy might be required :-)
  540. [19:07:18] * markp_ (n=chatzill@adsl-221-33-138.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  541. [19:07:18] <mkaply> bewest: well, they use contact which helps :)
  542. [19:07:25] <bewest> contact is also valid
  543. [19:07:28] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  544. [19:08:19] * markp_ is now known as markp
  545. [19:08:54] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  546. [19:08:58] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  547. [19:09:10] <bewest> hmm while we're at it
  548. [19:09:12] * stuup (n=stu@cpc2-staf1-0-0-cust301.sol2.cable.ntl.com) has left #microformats
  549. [19:09:19] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  550. [19:09:28] <bewest> tantek: can you explain the burden of proof thing again? you do it so much more eloquently than I... or Hixie for that matter
  551. [19:09:57] <bewest> there's a tricky turn of phrase involved
  552. [19:10:54] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  553. [19:11:33] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  554. [19:11:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  555. [19:15:07] * mkaply is not trying to be a pain. Just hoping to create a standard way of parsing these that people can use and remove some of the ambiguity
  556. [19:19:27] <bewest> it's already unambiguous though
  557. [19:20:05] <bewest> what part is ambiguous?
  558. [19:21:59] <mkaply> you guys have been doing this too long. I got a note from someone who couldn't figure out the proper way to use microformats around a telephone number
  559. [19:23:20] <bewest> that's a different problem
  560. [19:23:44] <DerrickPallas> I came back.
  561. [19:24:11] <bewest> recognizing which vcard represents the author of "this" hresume is unambiguous
  562. [19:24:13] <aconbere|work> mkaply: if you handed someone the xhtml spec how many of them could work out from there how to impliment it?
  563. [19:24:38] <bewest> authoring techniques are always a challenge to make more accessible to authors everywhere
  564. [19:25:03] <mkaply> bewest: I would argue that if there are three possible tests to find the author of an hresume, it's certainly not obvious. That's all.
  565. [19:25:21] <mkaply> And if someone were writing code to parse an hresume, it causes them more pain
  566. [19:27:53] <jcw9> How's the wikiproject ?f stuff coming?
  567. [19:28:06] <bewest> I'm certainly sensitive to that :-)
  568. [19:28:10] <bewest> microformats aren't easy to parse
  569. [19:28:18] <bewest> that doesn't mean it's ambiguous
  570. [19:28:18] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  571. [19:28:51] <bewest> most nontrivial programs have several logical branches. this is no different
  572. [19:29:05] <bewest> in fact I'd argue that since this boils down to only 3 such tests, it's quite good
  573. [19:29:09] <bewest> it could be much much worse
  574. [19:29:20] <bewest> go try parsing MS's powerpoint format
  575. [19:29:23] <bewest> I've heard horror stories
  576. [19:29:39] <jcw9> Why don't we have a official reference parser
  577. [19:29:46] <jcw9> Is X2V up to it?
  578. [19:29:47] <bewest> jcw9: what do you mean?
  579. [19:29:57] <bewest> what is a reference parser?
  580. [19:30:01] <jcw9> Like a "known good"" implrementation
  581. [19:30:09] <bewest> of what?
  582. [19:30:32] * mkaply is trying
  583. [19:30:37] <jcw9> Putting mf X into some kind of structure?
  584. [19:30:49] <jcw9> Like X2V I guess? I haven't looked at the source
  585. [19:30:56] <bewest> I'm confused
  586. [19:30:57] <jcw9> And I don't know about XSLT much
  587. [19:30:59] <bewest> structure of what?
  588. [19:31:03] <bewest> and what is X?
  589. [19:31:06] <bewest> and what does it do?
  590. [19:31:08] <mkaply> mine is more generic. You can give it a microformat and it will return a javascript structure prefilled in
  591. [19:31:10] <jcw9> X is some microformat
  592. [19:31:35] <mkaply> It automatically does class include, n parsing, etc. etc.
  593. [19:31:38] <jcw9> Right
  594. [19:31:47] <jcw9> Can all that be done with XSLT?
  595. [19:31:54] <bewest> can what be done?
  596. [19:32:03] <jcw9> include, parsing
  597. [19:32:23] <bewest> it is possible to parse microformats with XSLT
  598. [19:32:23] <bewest> yes
  599. [19:32:27] <jcw9> mkaply, Does it check datatypes? like making sure geo is delimited properly
  600. [19:32:38] <bewest> does what check datatypes?
  601. [19:32:41] <mkaply> jcw9: It does everything. I'm moving Operator over to using it as a backend
  602. [19:33:51] <mkaply> My goal is to have a generic microformat parser, browser independent, that you can hand a DOM node with a microformat to and what you'll get back is a prefilled in JS structure with all the correct values, including nested microformats
  603. [19:33:56] <jcw9> That's great!
  604. [19:34:13] <jcw9> Operator is GPL yes?
  605. [19:34:36] <mkaply> MPL/GPL so you can take my code and use it under the GPL.
  606. [19:34:44] <jcw9> right
  607. [19:35:05] <mkaply> the trick with a "reference implementation" is getting the implementors to agree you are doing it the right way :)
  608. [19:35:20] <DerrickPallas> I've decomposed uf parsing into a series of XSLT transforms and that works really well.
  609. [19:35:36] <jcw9> I just don't want to see people reinventing the wheel by making their own "less capable" implementations
  610. [19:35:45] <DerrickPallas> One for del, then one for include-pattern, then one for resolving URIs, then one for primary extraction..
  611. [19:35:52] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: absolutely. XSLT is a great solution as well. Just depends on what you need
  612. [19:35:53] <bewest> a proliferation of parsers probably isn't a bad thing
  613. [19:35:56] <DerrickPallas> Then you just have to massage the data and do the optimizations and you're done.
  614. [19:36:48] <jcw9> doing it all in XSLT is really nice
  615. [19:38:15] <mkaply> DerrickPallas: Can you get access to the fully qualified URL using XSLT? Like for a given anchor, the attribute "href" isn't enough
  616. [19:38:26] <mkaply> using JS, you can get .href which is fully qualified
  617. [19:39:38] <jcw9> I
  618. [19:39:58] <jcw9> (oops)
  619. [19:40:17] <DerrickPallas> Yes.
  620. [19:40:36] <DerrickPallas> I have one transform that resolves all the URIs.
  621. [19:41:35] <bewest> x2v also demonstrates how to do that
  622. [19:41:57] <DerrickPallas> It links out to the Ruby function URI::join( uri[] ) and I feed it (in this order) the document URL, the <base> URL, the localized xml:base, and then the href.
  623. [19:41:59] <bewest> if it's pure xslt, that's even cooler, because you can sink that into browser implementations with js and so on
  624. [19:42:03] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  625. [19:42:20] <DerrickPallas> It can be done in XSLT, you just need to use str:split.
  626. [19:42:40] <DerrickPallas> Or have an XSLT that understands resolve-uri.
  627. [19:42:41] <bewest> string manipulation in xslt sucks :-(
  628. [19:42:42] <DerrickPallas> I don't,.
  629. [19:44:01] <DerrickPallas> It's not so bad in exslt.
  630. [19:44:11] <mkaply> I'll take my Javascript .href :)
  631. [19:45:05] * mkaply has tried to read through the X2V stuff. Hurts my head
  632. [19:45:30] <bewest> hmmm
  633. [19:45:41] <bewest> it would be neat to implement a getElementsBySelector() in XSLT
  634. [19:45:53] <bewest> I wonder if that would make some of the tasks a bit more accessible to mere mortals
  635. [19:46:07] <DerrickPallas> You can translate CSS into Xpath.
  636. [19:46:14] <bewest> I've seen demos of people transforming css selectors into xpath, yes
  637. [19:46:28] <DerrickPallas> Who needs a demo, just do it. :)
  638. [19:46:33] <bewest> hehe
  639. [19:46:45] <aconbere|work> wow
  640. [19:46:47] <bewest> less talk, more rock, eh?
  641. [19:46:52] <aconbere|work> but they have no dom nodes
  642. [19:46:57] * aconbere|work wonders how that works
  643. [19:47:07] <DerrickPallas> That's my motto.
  644. [19:47:41] * DerrickPallas wonders what aconbere means.
  645. [19:50:30] <aconbere|work> DerrickPallas: my understanding of Xpath is that it traverses dom nodes (at least my limited use of it in working with firefox extensions etc.)
  646. [19:50:30] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  647. [19:50:45] <DerrickPallas> not true
  648. [19:50:56] <aconbere|work> clearly :-D
  649. [19:51:07] <DerrickPallas> XSLT has two modes: SAX and DOM
  650. [19:51:10] <bewest> it selects nodes, just like css
  651. [19:51:44] <DerrickPallas> SAX mode requires only a stack and makes call-backs when a node hits on a pre-compiled Xpath.
  652. [19:52:01] <DerrickPallas> DOM mode takes a tree or tree fragment and traverses it along an axis.
  653. [19:52:13] <aconbere|work> ahhh
  654. [19:52:17] <aconbere|work> so I'm used do dom mode
  655. [19:52:21] <DerrickPallas> Most XSLT transformers optimize the transform to use SAX until DOM is required.
  656. [19:52:23] <aconbere|work> s/do/to
  657. [19:53:51] <DerrickPallas> So if I do something like <xsl:template match="*[expression]">...</xsl:template> everything should run in SAX mode and only execute ... if expression hits on that node.
  658. [19:54:45] <aconbere|work> just one more warning that xml and it's relating technologies are much more complicated and rich than I have ever delved into.
  659. [20:02:24] <mkaply> if in an hReview, the item is an event, is an fn still required or is the summary from the vevent used?
  660. [20:03:11] * markp (n=chatzill@adsl-221-33-138.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  661. [20:03:18] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  663. [20:04:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  673. [20:48:21] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  674. [20:56:36] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  675. [20:56:37] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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  677. [20:57:30] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  678. [21:00:57] * shawn_ (n=shawn@adsl-70-132-12-115.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  680. [21:19:00] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  683. [21:24:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  684. [21:24:09] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  685. [21:25:24] * tantek tries to catchup from this morning's discussion
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  688. [21:28:25] <jibot> shawn_ is in Mountain View, CA
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  707. [23:00:19] <DerrickPallas> How's it going Tantek?
  708. [23:01:03] <DerrickPallas> I've found a couple of sites that have an hCard for you but screw up the encoding or charset, mangling your last name. :)
  709. [23:05:49] * markp (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-2951fb111f27f050) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  710. [23:10:50] * szaboat (n=szaboat@huwico/member/szaboat) has joined #microformats
  711. [23:22:34] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  712. [23:25:22] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  713. [23:30:18] * ryanlowe (n=blog@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ()
  714. [23:32:03] <bewest> any relaxNG people around?
  715. [23:43:48] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  716. [23:59:39] <tantek> greetings - are folks still wanting to discuss burden of proof?

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.