IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:05] <tantek> parse in as much detail as YOU care about for YOUR application
  2. [00:00:28] <bewest> tantek: except that you are talking about relatedness, while rel-tag seems to indicate that a symbol applies to the page... are you saying there is no difference between symbols being related and symbols being applied to a resource?
  3. [00:00:28] <tantek> and be aware that not everybody/everyapp is going to care about the level of detail / granularity as much as you might
  4. [00:00:41] <DerrickPallas> The problem is that I don't know how rel-tag will be used in the future.
  5. [00:00:44] <tantek> bewest - that's way too abstract
  6. [00:00:51] <tantek> get a little more concrete please
  7. [00:01:06] <tantek> DerrickPallas - you don't/shouldn't care - that's the point
  8. [00:01:15] <DerrickPallas> Exactly.
  9. [00:01:26] <tantek> right, so why is this worthy continuing to worry about?
  10. [00:01:29] * pecus (n=pecus@82.155.57.198) has joined #microformats
  11. [00:01:46] <DerrickPallas> So if another microformat comes along and makes an exception like xFolk makes, my document-level rel-tag parser now needs to include that exception.
  12. [00:01:58] <tantek> why "needs to"?
  13. [00:02:08] <tantek> no, every tag on a page applies to the page to some extent
  14. [00:02:28] <tantek> your document-level rel-tag parser doesn't need to worry about any other microformat in order to provide the proper semantic
  15. [00:02:41] <tantek> which is just that something/somepart of this page is about this tag
  16. [00:02:45] <DerrickPallas> So the links in a blogroll apply to the content of the page on which they are shown, even though blogrolls are periphery.
  17. [00:02:49] <tantek> even if that something/somepart is only a link
  18. [00:03:11] <bewest> tantek: then the author needs to keep track of the arbitrary rules of how a tag is applied to the page
  19. [00:03:16] <tantek> you don't need such "exceptions" that's the point. you're starting with a mistaken assumption.
  20. [00:03:24] <tantek> bewest, why?
  21. [00:03:36] <tantek> you're still not providing any concrete cases which show concrete problems
  22. [00:03:50] <tantek> "aboutness" is by definition fuzzy
  23. [00:04:11] <tantek> so this is all a non-problem in practice, though in theory it can drive knowledge classification folks nuts
  24. [00:04:19] <tantek> though books, publishers seem to have figured it out
  25. [00:04:26] <tantek> that it is a non-issue
  26. [00:05:27] <tantek> just treat rel-tags on the page as a *much* higher fidelity version of meta keywords. you're done. next.
  27. [00:06:17] <bewest> we'll look for a real example
  28. [00:06:30] <bewest> :-)
  29. [00:07:04] <DerrickPallas> Also, is @class="value" recursive?
  30. [00:07:14] <tantek> i'll check the email thread on that one
  31. [00:07:24] <tantek> i would say for simplicity no
  32. [00:07:45] <tantek> until someone shows a real world example of why a publisher needs it in a *real world* situation (i.e. provide URL to actual example)
  33. [00:08:05] <tantek> like the "deceased" example given - no problem. *something* on that page is about something that is deceased.
  34. [00:08:08] <tantek> it works
  35. [00:08:17] <DerrickPallas> Yeah, I agree with you that one works.
  36. [00:08:31] <tantek> could you perhaps help write the rel-tag-faq entry on this?
  37. [00:08:46] <tantek> since you have the better perspective than I of a person who had the question?
  38. [00:08:55] <tantek> that would be a big help
  39. [00:09:14] <DerrickPallas> No problem.
  40. [00:09:27] <tantek> the scoping redherring comes up reasonably often - especially by strict knowledge theorist types who are uncomfortable with fuzziness of scoping etc.
  41. [00:09:46] <tantek> not saying that's you BTW :)
  42. [00:10:26] <tantek> the people I'm talking about argue more about these things than build them and thus have more time to spend worrying about details they will never implement
  43. [00:10:32] <DerrickPallas> Oh, it is me.
  44. [00:10:42] <DerrickPallas> Maybe not that last part.
  45. [00:10:53] <tantek> but you're an implementer - that disqualifies you as a strict theorist :)
  46. [00:11:03] <DerrickPallas> Lol.
  47. [00:12:46] <DerrickPallas> The problem is I have to be abstract about most of what I implement until it's done, which doesn't help anyone.
  48. [00:14:45] <bewest> tantek: perhaps ;-). I was thinking of trying out a mapping of rdf into rel-tag
  49. [00:15:00] <bewest> maybe I shouldn't
  50. [00:15:20] <tantek> bewest - don't bother
  51. [00:15:21] <bewest> because in order for a predicate to apply an object to a subject, you need to know what the subject is
  52. [00:15:44] * bewest was curious what would happen if you transformed wiki links into this model
  53. [00:15:56] <tantek> RDF does not model actual human content publishing behavior therefore the RDF model is (nearly) useless for human published content
  54. [00:15:58] <jibot> WildFox is Mr. KSVG, original author of the majority of the code behind WebKit's rockin SVG support and super awesome with three sides of awesomesauce
  55. [00:17:35] <bewest> hmmm
  56. [00:17:54] * bewest was hoping to ask DanC what he thought about it, since he's interested in gleaning structured data from published content
  57. [00:18:49] <DerrickPallas> So "aboutness" should be considered binary with respect to rel-tag?
  58. [00:20:55] <tantek> I'm not sure what you mean by "considered binary"
  59. [00:21:29] <DerrickPallas> It is or it isn't.
  60. [00:21:35] <DerrickPallas> There is no degree.
  61. [00:21:49] <DerrickPallas> Or, there is no context.
  62. [00:22:00] <DerrickPallas> A container takes on the aspects of everything it contains.
  63. [00:22:23] <tantek> that is a property of containment
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  66. [00:24:07] <DerrickPallas> Anchors are pointers, though.
  67. [00:25:05] <amir> or better... container which point to something... ;)
  68. [00:41:01] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  69. [00:42:41] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13170 * DerrickPallas * (+1193) added section about scope being a red herring, as per tantek's request
  70. [00:44:44] * DerrickPallas (n=chatzill@209.237.236.227) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120418]")
  71. [00:47:59] <tantek> heh
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  74. [01:13:23] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13171 * DerrickPallas * (+83) What about Scope? -
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  76. [01:22:06] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  80. [01:27:58] <jibot> amanuel_ is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  88. [02:10:12] <bewest> I think Derrick's example is pretty good on the rel-tag-faq page
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  91. [02:19:21] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
  92. [02:25:33] <DerrickPallas> I think it's funny that the issue comes up every 3 months.
  93. [02:25:46] <bewest> ok
  94. [02:25:55] <bewest> here's an example of how this could easily happen
  95. [02:26:00] <bewest> even though I don't have a URI
  96. [02:26:05] <bewest> I'll find one though
  97. [02:26:06] <bewest> I'm sure of it
  98. [02:26:10] <DerrickPallas> How was soccer, Ben? Are we still going to the DNA Lounge?
  99. [02:26:18] <bewest> yeah, evidently it doesn't start till 1
  100. [02:26:19] <bewest> 11
  101. [02:26:26] <bewest> if you've got your blog marked up in hatom
  102. [02:26:43] <bewest> you'll use rel-tag to tag the blog
  103. [02:26:45] <bewest> that's fine
  104. [02:26:54] <bewest> the tags clearly apply to the page they appear on as well as the blog
  105. [02:27:22] <bewest> if you include an hatom of yourself as the author and include rel-tag to categorize yourself, that's still fine
  106. [02:27:30] <bewest> although it's starting to get really indirect
  107. [02:27:38] <bewest> oops, mean hcard
  108. [02:28:14] <bewest> if you link to someone else and use hcard to do it, and include rel-tag for their categories, it's unclear that the rel-tag you used in the hcard applies to anything but the hcard
  109. [02:28:44] <tantek> well it is still true that the tags apply to *something* on the page even if they don't apply to every single sentence on the page
  110. [02:29:14] <tantek> just like the keywords provided in the LoC pub data in a book apply to *something* in the book even if they don't apply to every single sentence in the book
  111. [02:29:18] <bewest> ok, so if you were to write a search engine, and you needed to index this, what would you do?
  112. [02:30:47] <tantek> depends on how granular the search engine wanted to be
  113. [02:30:56] <tantek> like I said, it is application specific
  114. [02:33:21] <tantek> most search engines only care about page level granularity
  115. [02:34:08] <bewest> hmm
  116. [02:34:21] * bewest still feels funny about it
  117. [02:35:02] <bewest> hrmmm
  118. [02:35:32] <bewest> on a different note: anyone know where I can ask relax-ng questions? #xml and #swig are not really related or responsive
  119. [02:35:51] <tantek> some search engines index parts of page (blog posts)
  120. [02:36:15] <bewest> tantek: that's true, but blog posts usually /also/ get their own page :-/
  121. [02:36:30] <tantek> others index even smaller pieces
  122. [02:36:54] <bewest> right
  123. [02:36:55] <DerrickPallas> Where it stands is I am looking for rel-tags that are not a part of another format; I can easily do this by enumerating all of the formats I know that use rel-tag and subtracting the hits.
  124. [02:37:10] <tantek> but why? i'm not sure that actually makes sense
  125. [02:37:14] <bewest> DerrickPallas: maybe it's not necessary
  126. [02:37:18] <tantek> right
  127. [02:37:35] * bewest doesn't know what to think anymore
  128. [02:37:42] <DerrickPallas> I wish I could tell you more about the application. :)
  129. [02:37:47] <bewest> I still feel really funny allowing it to apply globally
  130. [02:38:04] <bewest> because I don't think the author's intent is to apply it globally
  131. [02:39:07] * DerrickPallas has a work-around.
  132. [02:39:10] <bewest> especially when the wording when it's applied to containers makes it clear that it applies to the container, not the page
  133. [02:39:14] * shawn_ is now known as shawn
  134. [02:39:32] <bewest> tantek: I think we need to be explicit in the hcard and other specs that if you use rel-tag it will also apply to the page for the purpose of spidering
  135. [02:39:41] <bewest> tantek: because it's unclear
  136. [02:40:02] <DerrickPallas> It doesn't matter to me whether it is supposed to apply globally or not, I just need to know if it applies to anything at all.
  137. [02:40:05] <tantek> that's faqable
  138. [02:40:21] <bewest> yes, faqable, but I think it's worth changing the wording in the spec itself
  139. [02:40:28] <bewest> because it's borderline contradictory
  140. [02:41:38] <bewest> I would expect properties of hcard to apply only to the hcard
  141. [02:41:46] <bewest> to learn that some properties also apply to the page is a little confusing
  142. [02:41:57] <tantek> but that is the fundamental nature of topicality
  143. [02:42:03] <tantek> that's how topicality works
  144. [02:42:24] <tantek> a book with a single chapter about subjectA, can be said to also be about subjectA itself
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  146. [02:42:59] <bewest> I don't think that's what publishers will expect on the web
  147. [02:43:03] <tantek> it is fundamental to the nature of subject/topic/keyword/tag
  148. [02:43:58] <DerrickPallas> The security book on my desk deals with cryptography but not with social engineering. However, it does recommend other books about social engineering.
  149. [02:44:07] <DerrickPallas> The book is NOT about social engineering, but has a link to something that is.
  150. [02:44:19] <tantek> it has a small part that IS about social engineering
  151. [02:44:22] <DerrickPallas> It explicitly marks the linked book as being about social engineering.
  152. [02:44:22] <tantek> merely by mentioning it
  153. [02:44:51] <tantek> what if it mentioned TWO books about social engineering?
  154. [02:44:54] <DerrickPallas> Is that property transitive?
  155. [02:45:02] <tantek> what if it had a whole LIST of books about social engineering
  156. [02:45:06] <DerrickPallas> Because then everything is about everything.
  157. [02:45:21] <tantek> what if it had a whole A-Z bibliography about social engineering?
  158. [02:45:23] <tantek> DerrickPallas, no, in practice, that is not a problem
  159. [02:45:29] <tantek> that is a theoretical reductio - sorry
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  161. [02:45:41] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  162. [02:47:10] <DerrickPallas> What is your argument, about adding more and more to a bibliography then?
  163. [02:47:20] <DerrickPallas> See, in practice bibliographys are not a major part of a work.
  164. [02:47:34] <DerrickPallas> I don't buy a 10 page book with a 1000 page bibliography.
  165. [02:47:52] <DerrickPallas> And the rel-tag spec says that the tag is about a major part of a document.
  166. [02:48:24] <bewest> tantek: I don't think a blogger who uses a tool to include categories in an hcard would expect the categories chosen for the hcard to apply to the blog post, because there's nothing in the hcard literature that suggests that behaviour
  167. [02:49:12] <DerrickPallas> Are you saying that my question about transitivity is invalid? (Note, I had not yet made an argument.)
  168. [02:50:10] <DerrickPallas> If it is invalid, it is because links have value and that some relationships degrade over links.
  169. [02:51:15] <bewest> an author would expect only the tags he/she explicitly chose for the blog post to apply
  170. [02:51:17] <DerrickPallas> Some of the other microformat specs say that rel-tags bind more strongly to certain parts of the document.
  171. [02:51:19] <bewest> anything else is suprising
  172. [02:51:27] <DerrickPallas> Anyway, I didn't mean to start this argument again.
  173. [02:52:26] <bewest> that seems like basic usability
  174. [02:52:34] <DerrickPallas> Not another word out of me until I have examples.
  175. [02:52:42] <DerrickPallas> (Or, not another word on this topic.)
  176. [02:55:15] <bewest> btw, I'm curious: why not use rel-tag in tag clouds?
  177. [02:57:02] <redmonk> is there a page somewhere with "canonical" xfn test data?>
  178. [02:57:49] <redmonk> i'm looking at http://gmpg.org/xfn/11 but am wondering if there's a page with links of all the appropriate relationships that can be tested against
  179. [02:58:30] <bewest> hmm a test suite for xfn?
  180. [02:58:43] <tantek> bewest, because tag clouds don't actually "tag" (the verb) anything
  181. [03:00:09] <tantek> a test suite for xfn would be quite interesting
  182. [03:05:18] <bewest> redmonk: looks like there's some room for improvment there
  183. [03:05:29] <bewest> 'cause I don't see anything
  184. [03:05:37] <redmonk> yeah, me either
  185. [03:07:58] <DerrickPallas> Do you want to test if you can detect all the relationships? Or do you want to test that the relationships hold?
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  187. [03:32:04] <redmonk> DerrickPallas: detection to start with
  188. [03:32:26] <redmonk> and any exclusivity rules, like rel="me"
  189. [03:41:42] <tantek> what would the "result" of such a test look like?
  190. [03:42:04] <tantek> what would you generate to compare against a "baseline" to make sure it is correct?
  191. [03:49:42] <DerrickPallas> Detection is easy: output a list of triplets and verify that it matches the unit test.
  192. [03:58:54] * bewest heads home
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  194. [04:08:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13172 * DerrickPallas * (+79) New Examples -
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  197. [04:14:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=13173 * DerrickPallas * (+172) Issues: street-address is listed as not singular -
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  203. [04:44:34] <jibot> amanuel_ is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  217. [07:49:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  218. [07:49:55] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  222. [08:52:38] <mfbot> [[hproduct]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct * Adam Craven * (+56) hproduct still shows up on google, direct traffic to proper area.
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  225. [09:04:19] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13174 * Adam Craven * (-244) Cell phone -
  226. [09:04:40] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13175 * Adam Craven * (+243) CDs -
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  232. [10:22:29] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13176 * ChristopheDucamp * (+207) add barcampbank3 : how could we use microformats in banks
  233. [10:23:05] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13177 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
  234. [10:23:51] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=13178 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1)
  235. [10:51:05] * danja (n=danja@80.104.218.76) has joined #microformats
  236. [10:51:05] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  238. [11:21:28] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  239. [11:21:28] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  240. [11:21:30] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  242. [11:21:52] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc4-grim9-0-0-cust251.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  243. [11:32:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=13179 * AndyMabbett * (+14) OpenIssue
  244. [11:32:46] <mfbot> [[hproduct]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct&diff=0&oldid=13180 * AndyMabbett * (-35) made rdirect
  245. [11:34:02] <mfbot> [[product-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-examples&diff=0&oldid=13181 * AndyMabbett * (+7) CDs - fmt
  246. [11:52:32] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  247. [11:52:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  248. [11:52:33] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  249. [12:01:19] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13182 * ChristopheDucamp * (+167) Profils en ligne -
  250. [12:03:00] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13183 * ChristopheDucamp * (+82) Divers -
  251. [12:15:36] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-245-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  252. [12:15:41] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  253. [12:15:46] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  254. [12:23:29] * danja (n=danja@80.104.218.76) Quit ()
  255. [12:27:12] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13184 * ChristopheDucamp * (+327) Banques -
  256. [12:27:38] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13185 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2) Banques -
  257. [12:28:39] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13186 * ChristopheDucamp * (+64) Banques -
  258. [12:38:50] <mfbot> [[advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=13187 * ChristopheDucamp * (+79) Autres hCard - evan will be in Paris next june -> barcamp dedicated to uf in france
  259. [12:52:41] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  260. [12:53:31] * bengee_ is now known as bengee
  261. [12:55:42] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Client Quit)
  262. [12:56:17] * charles_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  263. [12:56:22] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13188 * Brian * (+160) What about Scope? -
  264. [12:59:55] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) Quit ("Leaving")
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  269. [13:16:26] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  270. [13:18:08] * danja (n=danja@host76-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  271. [13:18:08] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  272. [13:18:17] * danja (n=danja@host76-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  273. [13:22:45] * whafro (n=whafro@pool-71-163-192-82.washdc.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
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  275. [13:31:16] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  276. [13:31:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  277. [13:31:17] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  278. [13:37:59] * RobertBachman1 (n=rb@N125P022.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  279. [13:38:41] * Atamido__ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  281. [13:53:00] * Atamido___ is now known as Atamido
  282. [13:55:34] * Atamido_ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  283. [13:57:30] <mfbot> [[Template:AwaitingAnswer]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:AwaitingAnswer * BenBuchanan * (+668)
  284. [13:57:56] <mfbot> [[Template:AwaitingAnswer]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:AwaitingAnswer&diff=0&oldid=13189 * BenBuchanan * (-668)
  285. [13:58:27] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13190 * BenBuchanan * (+778) Tags with file extensions -
  286. [13:59:44] * Atamido__ (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  287. [14:00:08] <mfbot> [[Template:AwaitingAnswer]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:AwaitingAnswer&diff=0&oldid=13191 * BenBuchanan * (+15)
  288. [14:00:55] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13192 * BenBuchanan * (-130) Tags with file extensions -
  289. [14:01:09] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  290. [14:01:09] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  291. [14:07:00] * JamieKnight (n=chatzill@host86-140-70-111.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  292. [14:07:23] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  293. [14:18:31] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13193 * JamieKnight * (+4)
  294. [14:25:46] * trovster (n=trovster@host81-158-208-164.range81-158.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  295. [14:25:46] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  296. [14:25:55] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  297. [14:26:29] <Atamido> Hey.
  298. [14:26:37] <JamieKnight> how be you?
  299. [14:26:40] <Atamido> Anyone in the EU want to help me out real quick?
  300. [14:26:44] <Atamido> Good.
  301. [14:26:50] <JamieKnight> i am in the UK,
  302. [14:26:56] <JamieKnight> what do you want help with?
  303. [14:27:36] <Atamido> Go here: http://www.buffalo-technology.com/support/downloads.php and select the WLI-TX4-G54HP and tell me if there are any firmware updates.
  304. [14:27:58] <JamieKnight> why are you looking?
  305. [14:28:38] <JamieKnight> driver version 2.0
  306. [14:28:46] <Atamido> Because I want the new firmware update to make my bridge more stable but, "NOTE: Firmware is provided and supported for EU and Middle East Users only!"
  307. [14:29:03] <JamieKnight> DISCONTINUED
  308. [14:29:03] <JamieKnight> Downloads & Product Spec Sheets for HD-H0.6TGL/R5
  309. [14:29:03] <JamieKnight> Terabyte Network Attached Storage - 0.6 TB
  310. [14:29:30] <Atamido> No, I need it for the WLI-TX4-G54HP
  311. [14:29:44] <JamieKnight> can't see any,
  312. [14:30:01] <Atamido> :(
  313. [14:30:38] <JamieKnight> there is onnly version 1.3 in english,
  314. [14:30:50] <JamieKnight> there is v3 client manager?
  315. [14:31:02] <JamieKnight> have you tried driverHQ?
  316. [14:31:09] <Atamido> No, not yet.
  317. [14:32:18] <JamieKnight> http://www.driversplanet.com/networking/Buffalo/WLI-TX4-G54HP/drivers.aspx?model=66315
  318. [14:32:34] <JamieKnight> that might help,
  319. [14:32:39] <JamieKnight> havent tested it,
  320. [14:33:16] <JamieKnight> why did you not use a pci car, or USB system,
  321. [14:33:22] <JamieKnight> *card rather
  322. [14:33:40] <Atamido> Because this *just works*.
  323. [14:33:54] <JamieKnight> then why do you need new drivers?
  324. [14:34:04] <JamieKnight> USB system works very well, as does PCI cards,
  325. [14:34:09] <Atamido> Improve performance for streaming.
  326. [14:34:21] <JamieKnight> your evidence for that claim?
  327. [14:34:30] <Atamido> It's a pain to get wireless working reliably under Linux, and you can't connect USB to a SlingBox.
  328. [14:34:39] <Atamido> Comments by others.
  329. [14:34:52] <JamieKnight> true,
  330. [14:35:12] <JamieKnight> and, from my experience of you use netgear or belkien product linux tends to be fine with it,
  331. [14:35:29] <JamieKnight> but, then, thats only my experience,
  332. [14:35:34] <Atamido> Meh, I won't worry about it.
  333. [14:35:43] <Atamido> I tired. Best effort and all.
  334. [14:35:55] <JamieKnight> sorry about the lack of driver updates, but if it works
  335. [14:35:57] * JamieKnight shugs
  336. [14:35:58] * whafro_ (n=whafro@pool-71-163-203-108.washdc.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  337. [14:36:05] * Atamido shrugs too.
  338. [14:36:20] <JamieKnight> i assume you are in the US?
  339. [14:36:36] <Atamido> I just updated my router's firmware, so I figured I would try for my bridge's too.
  340. [14:36:37] <Atamido> Yeah.
  341. [14:36:46] <Atamido> Austin, TX, USA
  342. [14:36:46] <JamieKnight> kewl,
  343. [14:36:49] <JamieKnight> ah,
  344. [14:36:51] <JamieKnight> SXSW
  345. [14:36:53] <JamieKnight> land
  346. [14:36:57] <Atamido> Yep.
  347. [14:37:03] <JamieKnight> lucky you,
  348. [14:37:22] * JamieKnight is not going to SXSW this year. maybe next year or the year after
  349. [14:37:35] <Atamido> No time or money for it this year for me either. :(
  350. [14:37:40] <JamieKnight> :(
  351. [14:37:47] <JamieKnight> shame considering you are so close,
  352. [14:37:53] <JamieKnight> my problem is my age,
  353. [14:37:57] * JamieKnight is 17
  354. [14:38:17] <Atamido> Heh.
  355. [14:38:27] <JamieKnight> alun is going SXSW
  356. [14:38:28] * Atamido is 28, and has no age concerns.
  357. [14:38:35] <JamieKnight> hehe,
  358. [14:38:51] <JamieKnight> i am hoping to go to d.construct next year,
  359. [14:38:57] <JamieKnight> maybe @media,
  360. [14:39:15] <JamieKnight> havent dicided yet, will have to find out which ones alun is goign to,
  361. [14:39:15] <Atamido> If you were in Austin, you could probably make it into most of the offsite stuff and parties.
  362. [14:39:35] <JamieKnight> yeah, trouble is insurece for flights,
  363. [14:39:46] <JamieKnight> under 18 travelling without family == Expensive.
  364. [14:39:56] <JamieKnight> + autism make it even more expensive.
  365. [14:40:35] <JamieKnight> doing any projects atm?
  366. [14:40:41] <Atamido> They charge you more the fly if you're autistic?
  367. [14:40:54] <JamieKnight> well, insurence,
  368. [14:41:00] <JamieKnight> you are seen as a liability,
  369. [14:41:24] <JamieKnight> also, i will find flying REALLLY hard, so i might wait a few more years, or just stick to the UK.
  370. [14:41:38] <Atamido> Drugs.
  371. [14:42:09] <JamieKnight> i dont take any drugs,
  372. [14:42:13] <Atamido> Doctors will prescribe anti-anxiety pills.
  373. [14:42:17] <Atamido> For flying.
  374. [14:42:24] <JamieKnight> i can't take them,
  375. [14:42:28] <Atamido> Good for people that get anxious.
  376. [14:42:41] <JamieKnight> i react very "strangly" ro most medicines,
  377. [14:42:58] <JamieKnight> cannot even take NSAIDs without bad side effects.
  378. [14:43:13] <JamieKnight> the problem woutl be stress + change of routine.
  379. [14:43:52] <JamieKnight> i think a UK event would be better, but i would want to wait a few years,
  380. [14:44:08] <JamieKnight> anyway, you doing any cool projects
  381. [14:44:11] <Atamido> Yeah, I guess it depends how strong it is.
  382. [14:44:47] <Atamido> My friends younger brother is severly autistic and has to have things exactly the same. Drinks Cokes at the same times every day and all.
  383. [14:45:02] <Atamido> And can tell you where every truck stop in the US is. :P
  384. [14:45:10] <JamieKnight> hehe,
  385. [14:45:19] <Atamido> No, nothing cool at the moment.
  386. [14:45:28] <JamieKnight> i like prime numbers, and eat the same thing evryday at 7:59pm/
  387. [14:45:58] <Atamido> A few weeks ago I finished validating the little business listing mapping app for work, but I still need to add the vcard converter link.
  388. [14:46:10] <JamieKnight> 7 prime 59 prime, 19 is prime,
  389. [14:46:11] <JamieKnight> kewl,
  390. [14:46:21] <Atamido> http://portal.beecavetexas.com/maps.php
  391. [14:46:51] <Atamido> I prefer even numbers.
  392. [14:47:03] * whafro (n=whafro@pool-71-163-192-82.washdc.east.verizon.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  393. [14:47:03] <Atamido> Long live the evens!
  394. [14:47:04] * JamieKnight is getting frustrated with slow www,
  395. [14:47:14] <JamieKnight> I like prime numbers becauyse they are consistant.
  396. [14:47:33] <Atamido> Consistently prime. :P
  397. [14:47:33] <JamieKnight> no matter whick dimension / universe, a prime number will always been prime.
  398. [14:47:44] <Atamido> Very large prime numbers are fun.
  399. [14:47:50] * amir (n=Miranda@gentoo/developer/amir) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  400. [14:47:59] <Atamido> And single digit primes too.
  401. [14:48:00] <JamieKnight> 31 will never be factorised to intergers
  402. [14:48:00] <JamieKnight> what like 30402457?
  403. [14:48:09] <JamieKnight> 2,3,5,7,
  404. [14:48:18] * Atamido doesn't know if it's prime....
  405. [14:48:31] <JamieKnight> largerst known prime, the 44th mersenne is 2^32582657-1
  406. [14:48:34] <Atamido> Don't forget about precious 1.
  407. [14:48:44] <JamieKnight> 1 is not prime,
  408. [14:48:59] <JamieKnight> a prime must have 2 factors, 1 only has a single factor,
  409. [14:49:12] <Atamido> Oh?
  410. [14:49:22] <Atamido> What is 1 then?
  411. [14:49:40] <JamieKnight> http://www.prime-numbers.org/check.php?begin=30402457&B1=Check
  412. [14:49:46] <JamieKnight> 1 is on its own,
  413. [14:49:57] <JamieKnight> it is a happy number as 1^2 = 1
  414. [14:50:27] <JamieKnight> brb, residents are screaming.
  415. [14:50:29] <Atamido> 2^1-1 ?
  416. [14:51:11] * Atamido hopes tantek doesn't notice the channel hijack.
  417. [14:51:38] <JamieKnight> 0
  418. [14:52:01] <JamieKnight> well, we will make way for any microformats talk,
  419. [14:52:07] <JamieKnight> 2^p -1 makes a mersennes,
  420. [14:52:26] <JamieKnight> 2^oo will always be 1
  421. [14:52:54] <JamieKnight> sorry, 1 raised to infinty shall always be 1.
  422. [14:53:07] <Atamido> (2^1) - 1 = 1
  423. [14:53:23] <JamieKnight> true,
  424. [14:53:56] <JamieKnight> so, 2 ^2 -1, (3) 2^3-1(7) and 2^5-1 (31) are all mersennes primes,
  425. [14:55:02] <JamieKnight> the largerst mersenne is 2^32582657-1 and has 9,808,300 digits, and was found by GIMPS on 4th of september 2006 , and verified on the 6th.....
  426. [14:55:21] * JamieKnight stops talking about prime numbers now,
  427. [14:58:27] * Atamido wanders off to make changes to his MythTV box.
  428. [14:58:48] * JamieKnight is configuring a client site on the server
  429. [15:17:17] <briansuda> hm, this logo looks VERY familiar: http://www.mypagerank.net/
  430. [15:17:28] <briansuda> a square version of the microformats logo?
  431. [15:20:22] <RobertBachman1> wtf?
  432. [15:21:00] <RobertBachman1> seams familiar ;-) *cough* stolen
  433. [15:21:10] * RobertBachman1 is now known as RobertBachmann
  434. [15:21:11] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at> from Austria (TZ: 0100)
  435. [15:22:54] <JamieKnight> hiya briansuda
  436. [15:23:15] <briansuda> some one want to email the -discuss list about that
  437. [15:23:25] * briansuda waves to everyone
  438. [15:24:09] <JamieKnight> brain can i ask you somthing
  439. [15:24:21] <briansuda> go ahead
  440. [15:24:43] <JamieKnight> i have a hCard to gmail CSV script but i have no where to host it,
  441. [15:24:55] <JamieKnight> i dont have XLST on my server,
  442. [15:25:01] <JamieKnight> would you be intrested in it?
  443. [15:25:14] <briansuda> is it XSLT?
  444. [15:25:21] <JamieKnight> yep,
  445. [15:25:37] <JamieKnight> its based on you vCard script, and a vcard to csv converter,
  446. [15:25:58] <briansuda> i can see what i can do, i can put it into the Version system too if you'd like
  447. [15:26:02] <briansuda> then others can build on it
  448. [15:26:04] <JamieKnight> http://jkg3.com/Journal/74/hcard-to-gmail
  449. [15:26:21] <JamieKnight> yeah, its just a first try,
  450. [15:26:38] <JamieKnight> i turned the other system into a function the hacked it about a bit, it still needs alot of work,
  451. [15:27:41] <JamieKnight> or, if you have any good recomendations for hosting either,
  452. [15:28:07] <JamieKnight> with XLST, i was considering getting myself a slice, but it seems overkill for one thing,
  453. [15:28:29] <briansuda> well, you can do alot of cool stuff with XSLT
  454. [15:28:45] <briansuda> does your host have PHP 4 and/or 5?
  455. [15:28:49] <JamieKnight> i know, its just i dont have the skills (yet) to build a full server,
  456. [15:28:53] <JamieKnight> yeah, both,
  457. [15:28:59] <JamieKnight> you can slelect,
  458. [15:29:04] <briansuda> and they don't have XSLT built in?
  459. [15:29:10] <JamieKnight> well,
  460. [15:29:15] <briansuda> you can use the function_exists() to test
  461. [15:29:17] <JamieKnight> for my testing server )localhost)
  462. [15:29:32] <JamieKnight> there is a form os XS+LST on the php info,
  463. [15:29:39] <JamieKnight> sorry, XLST rather,
  464. [15:30:32] <briansuda> hm, not sure
  465. [15:30:43] <JamieKnight> one sec,
  466. [15:30:47] <briansuda> it is easy enough to just write 3-4 lines of PHP
  467. [15:30:56] <JamieKnight> yeah, one sec,
  468. [15:31:05] <briansuda> if (function_exists('')) { echo 'yup
  469. [15:31:15] <JamieKnight> one of the staff is using torrents,
  470. [15:31:23] <JamieKnight> taking all the bandwidth
  471. [15:31:26] <JamieKnight> GRRRRR,
  472. [15:33:04] <JamieKnight> FTPing now,
  473. [15:33:56] <JamieKnight> its called EXSLT
  474. [15:42:28] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  475. [15:42:55] * RobertBachmann mail uf-discuss about the logo on mypagerank.net
  476. [15:43:24] <RobertBachmann> mails*
  477. [15:47:57] * briansuda gets the email - didn't need to cite my IRC quote :)
  478. [15:48:44] <RobertBachmann> I was to lazy to come up with my own text ;-)
  479. [15:56:29] * Lachy (n=Lachlan@203-166-250-95.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  480. [15:57:54] <whafro_> it's certainly a clear violation of US trademark and copyright law, and should be a violation of brazilian copyright law (mypagerank.net is brazilian)
  481. [15:58:38] * whafro_ is now known as whafro
  482. [16:04:29] * whafro (n=whafro@pool-71-163-203-108.washdc.east.verizon.net) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  484. [16:04:29] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  487. [16:04:29] * bear_afk (n=bear@c-71-230-109-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  488. [16:10:36] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  489. [16:10:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  490. [16:12:26] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=13194 * Brian * (+51) Added Stikkit
  491. [16:14:30] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd085.rhi.hi.is) Quit (Client Quit)
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  493. [16:15:16] <jibot> whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
  494. [16:15:32] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
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  496. [16:16:12] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  497. [16:17:04] * MarkB (n=mbaker@209.161.202.187) has joined #microformats
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  503. [16:57:12] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  504. [17:02:19] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=13195 * Evan * (+751) Machine tags
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  511. [17:28:11] <JamieKnight> hiya,
  512. [17:50:25] * RobertBachmann (n=rb@N125P022.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving.")
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  517. [18:00:20] * remi (i=remi@c66.203.217-76.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  518. [18:00:21] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  519. [18:04:46] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  523. [18:12:18] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  524. [18:12:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  525. [18:12:18] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  526. [18:14:28] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  527. [18:17:38] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  528. [18:21:53] <JamieKnight> does anyone know where there is a hKit example?
  529. [18:21:56] <JamieKnight> hiya tantel
  530. [18:22:03] <JamieKnight> tantek rather,
  531. [18:31:40] * shawn (n=shawn@adsl-70-231-245-45.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
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  534. [18:56:15] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=13196 * ROliveira * (+403) New Implementations -
  535. [18:59:43] * danja (n=danja@80.104.218.76) Quit (" ")
  536. [19:07:40] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  537. [19:12:20] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  538. [19:21:51] * nstrich (n=nostrich@host86-142-255-110.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  539. [19:27:52] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13197 * BDarcus * (+337) Date Fields -
  540. [19:36:51] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-137-41-248.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Success)
  541. [19:40:25] * Token (i=Token@200-158-232-89.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #microformats
  542. [19:41:32] <Token> how can i make search based in hcard and hreview on technorati? i could not find this session there
  543. [19:42:25] <tantek> http://kitchen.technorati.com/
  544. [19:43:43] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13198 * DerrickPallas * (+9) not everyone uses Apache -
  545. [19:45:26] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit ()
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  547. [20:00:54] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  548. [20:00:54] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  549. [20:05:00] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=13199 * DerrickPallas * (-14) in general, search engines do look at term relevance
  550. [20:13:02] * charlie_r (n=Miranda@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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  583. [22:05:41] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=13200 * Drago516 * (+97) added section for myself, moved "create microformat for opening hours of stores" to my to-do
  584. [22:08:38] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-245-070.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  585. [22:15:27] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13201 * Alex Hillman * (+132) New Examples -
  586. [22:16:28] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13202 * Alex Hillman * (+145) New Examples -
  587. [22:20:09] * OpenStandards (n=vir@ACBD0BC0.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
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  589. [22:29:45] <mfbot> [[User:Drago516]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Drago516 * Drago516 * (+902)
  590. [22:34:11] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-142-255-110.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.