IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-02-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:34] <kingryan> does anyone here know the people behind http://www.lakeparty.de/ ?
  2. [00:01:51] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
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  5. [00:09:54] * nacht (n=nacht@213.47.199.86) Quit ("oily marks appear on walls / where pleasure moments hung before the take over / the sweeping insensitivity of this still life)
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  8. [00:14:41] <jibot> dydimustk is writing at http://dydimustk.com/blog
  9. [00:27:01] * dydimustk is now known as dydimsutk_afk
  10. [00:31:11] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-159-30-219.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  11. [00:31:11] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  14. [01:19:14] <jibot> dydimustk is writing at http://dydimustk.com/blog
  15. [01:44:26] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@host81-159-30-219.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  16. [01:46:16] <mfbot> [[semantic-class-names]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-class-names&diff=0&oldid=13805 * Tantek * (+98) added Eric Meyer keep your classes clean reference
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  21. [02:40:57] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  29. [04:09:52] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  30. [04:10:33] * shigeta is now known as shigeta_
  31. [04:16:42] * GhostChe (n=example@c-71-232-30-70.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit ()
  32. [04:41:33] <mfbot> [[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=13806 * Kwilson * (+7) Microformats Logos -
  33. [04:41:54] <mfbot> [[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=13807 * Kwilson * (+7) Style 3 -
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  36. [05:03:57] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  40. [05:27:23] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  42. [05:38:16] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  52. [07:42:05] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  53. [07:42:31] * amette (n=amette@mocube.net) has joined #microformats
  54. [07:42:32] <jibot> amette is http://amette.eu
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  59. [08:12:43] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  60. [08:12:43] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  62. [08:21:36] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  63. [08:21:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  67. [09:05:49] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  97. [10:13:04] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  98. [10:14:06] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  99. [10:14:06] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
  100. [10:22:48] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host81-132-100-119.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  102. [10:23:37] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  103. [10:53:15] * DanWrong_ (n=DanWrong@87.112.86.178.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
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  105. [10:55:42] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd009.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  106. [10:55:42] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  107. [10:55:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  108. [11:48:05] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=13808 * AndyMabbett * (+210) Related pages - (X)HTML cheatsheet
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  114. [12:30:53] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=13809 * Brian * (-73) removed http://keryx.se/asp/html_elements_beta.pdf it returns a 404
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  121. [12:53:14] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  125. [13:16:26] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  126. [13:30:17] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
  127. [13:30:17] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  130. [13:31:41] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  139. [14:25:06] <mfbot> [[cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=13810 * AndyMabbett * (+74) fix URL
  140. [14:27:28] * briansuda thinks that is less of a cheatsheet and more of a cheat book!
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  147. [14:45:39] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  152. [14:57:56] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  160. [15:26:43] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  161. [15:26:43] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  166. [15:53:47] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13811 * AndyMabbett * (+254) Quantitative evidence - species identification sheet - another 13,400
  167. [15:53:48] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) has joined #microformats
  168. [15:54:52] <dydimustk> im
  169. [16:01:42] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  170. [16:01:42] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  174. [16:14:54] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13812 * AndyMabbett * (+567) Quantitative evidence - Zip Code Zoo - another 25 million...
  175. [16:17:35] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  177. [16:19:10] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13813 * AndyMabbett * (+131) Quantitative evidence - Global Biodiversity Information Facility - add anoethr million +
  178. [16:22:11] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13814 * AndyMabbett * (+246) Quantitative evidence - more on GBIF
  179. [16:24:04] * jinx (i=jinx@vega.box5.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  180. [16:27:27] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13815 * AndyMabbett * (+298) Quantitative evidence - Add another 118 million (yes, 118 MILLION)
  181. [16:32:18] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13816 * AndyMabbett * (+231) Notable websites - United Nations
  182. [16:32:37] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  183. [16:33:46] * iand_ (n=iand@talis.com) has joined #microformats
  184. [16:47:05] <mfbot> [[Template:species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:species&diff=0&oldid=13817 * AndyMabbett * (+97) clarify, for new readers
  185. [16:48:55] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
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  187. [16:52:26] <mfbot> [[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13818 * AndyMabbett * (-12214) Quantitative evidence - moving to new page to reduce page-size
  188. [16:53:12] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/species-examples-quantitative * AndyMabbett * (+12350) moved
  189. [16:54:13] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13819 * AndyMabbett * (+110) See also
  190. [16:55:44] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13820 * AndyMabbett * (+607) intro
  191. [16:56:35] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13821 * AndyMabbett * (+199) Contributors
  192. [16:59:06] <mfbot> [[Template:species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:species&diff=0&oldid=13822 * AndyMabbett * (-12) Add new page
  193. [17:02:03] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13823 * AndyMabbett * (-56) copy edit
  194. [17:02:49] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13824 * AndyMabbett * (-18) copy edit
  195. [17:03:20] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13825 * AndyMabbett * (+14) sub-head
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  200. [17:32:52] * Tyler (n=tyler@unaffiliated/tyler) has joined #microformats
  201. [17:32:53] <jibot> Tyler is a web developer working towards a user-powered online magazine utilizing Microformats.
  202. [17:33:23] <Tyler> ?forgetme
  203. [17:33:23] <jibot> I have expunged Tyler from my mind
  204. [17:33:27] * Tyler (n=tyler@unaffiliated/tyler) has left #microformats
  205. [17:37:11] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-bdcc4ab5ac27e200) has joined #microformats
  206. [17:37:11] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  213. [17:57:43] <HenrichP> hello ... are there any participants of the "authoritative hcard" discussion from the mailinglist?
  214. [17:59:17] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  215. [17:59:17] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  216. [18:01:11] * iand_ (n=iand@talis.com) Quit ("http://iandavis.com/")
  217. [18:03:25] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  218. [18:03:25] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  219. [18:05:44] <HenrichP> I was wondering that if there is a "stub hcard" (==a hcard not containing all the information) taht contains a URL to a more comprehensive hcard why this would still not be authoratative ...
  220. [18:06:15] <HenrichP> ... I mean if I put a stub of my hcard online, i would link it up directly to the authoritative one.
  221. [18:07:22] <HenrichP> or is it a third party that could put the "first" stub somewhere ?
  222. [18:09:05] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  223. [18:09:54] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  224. [18:14:15] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  225. [18:14:15] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  226. [18:14:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  227. [18:17:22] * HenrichP (n=Miranda@svs22.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) Quit ("Bye for now ...")
  228. [18:23:34] <Atamido> Bah, I think HenrichP had a valid question.
  229. [18:24:01] <Atamido> Is there a way to embed a link into a microformat that indicates the location of more complete information?
  230. [18:24:25] <bewest> yeah, I think there is a faq
  231. [18:24:59] <AGraf```> i doubt that this is parsed by operator though?
  232. [18:25:43] <Atamido> "Read more"
  233. [18:25:49] <Atamido> Or "Find out more"
  234. [18:26:42] <bewest> Atamido: you are talking about having more complete information on a /separate/ page, right?
  235. [18:26:46] <bewest> at a different resource
  236. [18:26:56] <Atamido> Either or.
  237. [18:26:58] <bewest> I think the technique people have been using for that is to use rel="me"
  238. [18:27:11] <bewest> if it's on the same page, use rel-include
  239. [18:27:30] <bewest> I know people have been using a technique for this
  240. [18:27:33] <bewest> but I don't see it documented
  241. [18:27:37] <kingryan> bewest: rel='me' only works for first-party stuff
  242. [18:27:41] <bewest> oh
  243. [18:27:42] <bewest> right
  244. [18:27:44] <Atamido> Yeah, I don't see it documented either.
  245. [18:27:57] <AGraf```> it's not implemented yet as far as i know
  246. [18:28:11] <kingryan> for hCard and hCalendar, I think think the answer should be URL+UID
  247. [18:28:15] <bewest> oh ok
  248. [18:28:27] <bewest> so there isn't convergence on a single technique for this yet
  249. [18:28:35] <bewest> and in fact it's been subject of a hot debate recently
  250. [18:28:41] <AGraf```> the include pattern comes closest but it's for one resource only... for multiple resources i think url+id is in the works
  251. [18:28:47] <AGraf```> yeah as kingryan said...
  252. [18:29:12] <bewest> kingryan: why not re-use semantics from rel="alternate"?
  253. [18:29:17] <kingryan> yeah, bewest, there is no "single technique"– we need to explore the individual techniques already present in the formats first
  254. [18:29:31] <kingryan> because vcard, et al already contain the semantics we need
  255. [18:29:36] <kingryan> plus rel applies to whole pages
  256. [18:29:40] <bewest> oops
  257. [18:29:41] <bewest> right
  258. [18:29:43] <bewest> shame on me
  259. [18:29:46] <kingryan> (see sreynen's recent email)
  260. [18:30:13] <bewest> oh is there finally a decent conversation on this?
  261. [18:30:19] <Atamido> Is this documented anywhere in the wiki?
  262. [18:30:23] <kingryan> no, just the rel thing
  263. [18:30:25] <kingryan> not the uid thing
  264. [18:30:39] <bewest> oh, and 5 more on SOURCE
  265. [18:30:46] <bewest> Atamido: this is an issue being actively discussed
  266. [18:31:00] <bewest> however, the discussion is relatively hard to follow :-(
  267. [18:31:03] <bewest> what can we do to make it easier?
  268. [18:31:19] <kingryan> hmm, I interpret html4 to specify that rel is whole documents, but it seems we have disagreement: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#Are_.22rel.22_attributes.2C_and_linktypes_in_general.2C_just_document_to_document.3F
  269. [18:31:46] <bewest> kingryan: if we go down the path of scoping it to certain document fragments we're going to be in a world of hurt
  270. [18:31:56] <kingryan> I agreee
  271. [18:32:04] <kingryan> scoping is out of scope
  272. [18:32:05] <kingryan> ;)
  273. [18:32:11] <kingryan> let whatwg worry about that
  274. [18:33:08] <bewest> hmmm
  275. [18:33:21] <bewest> kingryan: what about the good people currently trying to write parsers and search engines :/
  276. [18:33:29] <bewest> anyway this is a separate issue
  277. [18:33:40] * bewest doesn't want to bring up rel-tag again right now
  278. [18:34:03] <kingryan> I'm just saying that specifying a general way to scope relationship values to fragments of documents is out of scope for us
  279. [18:34:13] <Atamido> There should be an existing-rel page like the existing classes page. http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes
  280. [18:34:26] <bewest> Atamido: what would that help with?
  281. [18:34:59] <AGraf```> [19:30:17] <@bewest> kingryan: what about the good people currently trying to write parsers and search engines :/
  282. [18:35:15] <AGraf```> it's impossible to create a generic microformats parser anyway
  283. [18:35:27] <kingryan> exactly AGraf```
  284. [18:35:39] <AGraf```> so every time there is a new microformat or something changes, the parser will have to be rewritten or extended
  285. [18:35:43] <AGraf```> this is not rdf
  286. [18:35:52] <bewest> AGraf```: there have been discussions before about scoping of rel-tag. a parser needs to know to what part of the document the tag applies to
  287. [18:35:56] <bewest> it's specific, not general
  288. [18:35:57] <Atamido> bewest: To quickly identify valid existing relationships and their use.
  289. [18:36:02] <kingryan> hmm, it appears that html5 leaves the relationship at the document level
  290. [18:36:09] <bewest> kingryan: then so should we
  291. [18:36:12] <kingryan> I wonder if Hixie has any other plans for that
  292. [18:36:41] <bewest> otherwise you set up authors to concieve a mental model that is very different from the functional model
  293. [18:36:41] <AGraf```> bewest: yes, but its subject to change anyway... the parser writers will have to consider that
  294. [18:36:51] <bewest> AGraf```: yes, that's not the issue
  295. [18:36:59] <bewest> changing a parser isn't the issue
  296. [18:37:08] <AGraf```> i'm not getting the point then, i think
  297. [18:37:11] <AGraf```> sorry...
  298. [18:37:16] <Atamido> kingryan: It would be easier if there was a discussion page that outlined the competing standards.
  299. [18:37:21] <bewest> knowing how to interpret what rel applies to is the issue
  300. [18:37:49] <bewest> it's a bit ambiguous... and here I am bringing it up again :-(
  301. [18:38:00] <AGraf```> oh i see, you mean... currently
  302. [18:38:29] <bewest> yes... sometimes it applies to part of the page, sometimes to the whole page... it's very confusing
  303. [18:38:31] <AGraf```> yeah i know it's ambigous... i think it applies to whole documents but others disagree apparently
  304. [18:39:43] <Atamido> It isn't mentioned either way here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-design-pattern
  305. [18:39:46] <kingryan> bewest: but when I applies to part of a page, you can also apply it to the entire page
  306. [18:39:48] <Atamido> It probably should be.
  307. [18:42:16] <bewest> kingryan: that's confusing for authors
  308. [18:42:50] <bewest> kingryan: especially since the specs don't indicate that behaviour might happen
  309. [18:43:23] <kingryan> lol, I guess we're back to that now :D
  310. [18:43:26] <bewest> sorry
  311. [18:43:27] <bewest> hehe
  312. [18:43:37] <bewest> let's talk about hcard instead
  313. [18:43:46] <bewest> it's simpler
  314. [18:44:31] <bewest> so I think everyone is agreed that there should be some way to indicate the location of an alternate hcard which represents the same information, but in a more complete way
  315. [18:44:41] <bewest> and that it should work for organizations and for individuals
  316. [18:45:02] <bewest> kingryan: you've been calling these "related" hcards, correct?
  317. [18:45:21] <kingryan> yes, somewhat incorrectly
  318. [18:45:28] <kingryan> (see my email from a few minutes ago)
  319. [18:45:35] <AGraf```> bewest: i don't think it should only represent a more complete information set
  320. [18:45:49] <kingryan> I've been talking about a specific relationship, but not being entirely specifc about what the relationship is
  321. [18:45:50] <AGraf```> it should also be possible to add more bits to the card from different resources
  322. [18:45:50] <bewest> when others say "authoritative" hcard, is this the same thing?
  323. [18:46:02] <kingryan> by "related hcards" I mean "hcards related in that they represent the same entity"
  324. [18:46:02] <bewest> when people say "identity" they are talking about the something else, correct?
  325. [18:46:31] <kingryan> in this case "identity" should mean "represents the same person or organization"
  326. [18:46:36] <kingryan> 'cause that's all we got
  327. [18:46:40] <bewest> AGraf```: I think a merge over the network is too much to ask....
  328. [18:47:13] <bewest> kingryan: as in the property of identity, not as in the security concept of identity?
  329. [18:47:36] <AGraf```> [19:43:36] <bewest> AGraf```: I think a merge over the network is too much to ask.... <- if you just merge two thats the same
  330. [18:47:42] <kingryan> bewest: I think so
  331. [18:47:44] <bewest> AGraf```: this isn't a merge
  332. [18:47:44] <AGraf```> then you can also merge more cards i think
  333. [18:47:55] <kingryan> AGraf```: you could merge if you want
  334. [18:47:59] <kingryan> it depends on your application
  335. [18:48:05] <AGraf```> of course
  336. [18:48:11] <AGraf```> and on the pattern...
  337. [18:48:28] <bewest> right, but specifying that behaviour is outside the scope for this effort, I believe
  338. [18:48:37] <bewest> it's up to the application to figure out how to do that
  339. [18:49:00] <AGraf```> there needs to be a standard for something like that though
  340. [18:49:15] <bewest> maybe
  341. [18:49:21] <kingryan> AGraf```: we need experience with it first
  342. [18:49:23] <bewest> why don't we do the simple thing first
  343. [18:49:41] <kingryan> bewest: that's what I've been trying to propose (without success)
  344. [18:50:05] <bewest> kingryan: I think we're getting there... helps to get everyone on the same page wrt vocabulary and mindshare
  345. [18:50:21] * jinx (i=jinx@vega.box5.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  346. [18:50:44] <kingryan> bewest: yes vocabulary is important :D
  347. [18:50:51] <kingryan> and I've not done a good job with it
  348. [18:51:01] <kingryan> and other people have gotten upset
  349. [18:52:27] * mbradley (n=chatzill@dasasob.nokia.com) has joined #microformats
  350. [18:52:32] * iand (n=iand@89.192.20.237) has joined #microformats
  351. [18:52:32] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  352. [18:56:29] <mkaply> The way you write a generic microformats parser is by moving some of the "parsing" into the description of the format
  353. [18:56:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13826 * IanLoic * (+110) New Examples -
  354. [18:56:40] <mkaply> Right now, I have a generic parser that can take microformat definition files.
  355. [18:56:46] <mkaply> It just depends on how clever you are :)
  356. [18:56:49] <AGraf```> that doesn't make it "generic" though :)
  357. [18:57:01] <AGraf```> it can't parse all uf's
  358. [18:57:09] <ianloic> hah
  359. [18:57:24] <ianloic> my irc client highlights mfbot messages when I edit the wiki
  360. [18:57:27] <AGraf```> well, not all uf's which will possibly be created in the future
  361. [18:57:31] <mkaply> That's because of how microformats are done.
  362. [18:57:38] <AGraf```> yes
  363. [18:57:44] <ianloic> mkaply, I tried doing that too
  364. [18:57:44] <AGraf```> that's what i was saying ;)
  365. [18:57:47] <mkaply> With RDFa you can actually have a generic parser that parses any future RDFa
  366. [18:57:55] <AGraf```> yep
  367. [18:57:57] <ianloic> mkaply, but there are lots and lots of edge cases defined in the specs that are hard to encode
  368. [18:58:00] <AGraf```> same with eRDF
  369. [18:58:23] <AGraf```> mkaply you're the operator guy, right?
  370. [18:58:32] <mkaply> AGraf```: yes.
  371. [18:58:39] <mkaply> ianloic: I work hard to cover all the edge cases.
  372. [18:58:40] <AGraf```> nice
  373. [18:58:40] <ianloic> mkaply, how do you handle hAtom titles?
  374. [18:59:00] <ianloic> (that's the one that got me)
  375. [18:59:06] <mkaply> ianloic: hAtoms don't have titles. That's one of the thing I hate about that spec.
  376. [18:59:21] <mfbot> [[governance]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance&diff=0&oldid=13827 * RyanKing * (+171) adding links
  377. [18:59:24] <ianloic> let me find what I was referring to - I havne't worked on my parser for a few months
  378. [18:59:29] <kingryan> mkaply: don't have titles? what?
  379. [18:59:51] <mkaply> kingryan: the hAtom spec doesn't say how to get the title of a feed, just the title of an entry
  380. [18:59:57] <kingryan> ah, ok
  381. [19:00:05] <mkaply> So if you have multiple feeds on one page, there is no way to differentiate them.
  382. [19:00:12] <mkaply> I've just about given up on doing hAtom in operator
  383. [19:00:27] <kingryan> well, you could propose a way to do feed titles
  384. [19:00:32] <ianloic> mkaply, http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Title
  385. [19:00:49] <AGraf```> brb
  386. [19:00:58] * AGraf``` (n=Ashe@M316P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Quit")
  387. [19:00:58] <ianloic> entry titles are retardo
  388. [19:01:04] <Atamido> ianloic: Your IRC client probably highlights any message with your name in it. :)
  389. [19:01:07] <mkaply> kingryan: It's proposed :)
  390. [19:01:09] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@62.47.207.101) has joined #microformats
  391. [19:01:16] <ianloic> Atamido, well, yes :)
  392. [19:01:34] <kingryan> mkaply: then get the spec editor to accept it :D
  393. [19:01:47] <mkaply> kingryan: my problems with hAtom go much deeper.
  394. [19:02:00] <kingryan> mkaply: do tell
  395. [19:02:02] <ianloic> I think hAtom has some serious badness
  396. [19:02:20] <mkaply> kingryan: It should have been specified as two separate microformats.
  397. [19:02:39] <mkaply> making the primary classname optional is just crazy
  398. [19:03:04] <kingryan> do you think that's a problem with hCalendar, too?
  399. [19:03:25] <mkaply> kingryan: not as much because a vevent can stand alone from a vcalendar
  400. [19:03:34] <mkaply> It doesn't "need" a vcalendar
  401. [19:04:02] <mkaply> My view of things is very one sided, but think of it this way.
  402. [19:04:28] <mkaply> So I 'm trying to do hAtom in Operator. My first try was a dropdown that showed all hentries on a page.
  403. [19:04:31] <bewest> why is it crazy?
  404. [19:04:45] <mkaply> bewest: because it makes it very painful to parse.
  405. [19:04:50] <mkaply> And had actions on the hentrys
  406. [19:04:53] <bewest> the presence of a primary classname isn't enough to detect presence of a microformat anyway
  407. [19:05:12] <ianloic> mkaply, the usual response to that is "microformats are meant to be easy to write, not possible to parse"
  408. [19:05:34] <mkaply> ianloic: I'm aware of that. That's the same problem that exists in specs like SVG, XForms, etc.
  409. [19:05:44] <Atamido> Writing specs is always fun. :)
  410. [19:05:46] <mkaply> It's only when people start to write implementations that the "problems" are found
  411. [19:06:14] <ianloic> mkaply, one of my motivations in writing a generic uf parser was to be able to quantify the complexity of various formats and the divergence from the basic design patterns that some of them had
  412. [19:06:26] <mkaply> but we don't call them problems, we call them errata
  413. [19:06:54] <kingryan> mkaply: you're exactly write. building implementations helps us find problems we hadn't anticipated
  414. [19:07:08] <mkaply> anyway, so then I thought, maybe I should have a menuitem for each hfeed, with all the hentries as submenus
  415. [19:07:09] <kingryan> mkaply: please register your feedback and push on the editor to deal with it
  416. [19:07:17] <bewest> also test cases
  417. [19:07:22] <mkaply> Sounds like a great idea, but basically every feed page has one submenu with a zillion submenu items
  418. [19:07:23] <bewest> as shown by the OWL guys
  419. [19:07:28] <mkaply> So that didn't work well either
  420. [19:07:57] <mkaply> But I'm told there are "actions" that should happen against the hfeed and "actions" that should happen against the hentries
  421. [19:08:24] <mkaply> So in my mind, the most logical thing to do is have a menu for hFeeds and a separate dropdown for hEntries
  422. [19:09:18] <ianloic> mkaply, where is your formats format? somewhere in operator svn?
  423. [19:09:53] <mkaply> http://svn.mozilla.org/labs/operator/chrome/operator/content/ufJS/microformats/
  424. [19:10:02] <mkaply> Although I want to move more stuff out of the definitions.
  425. [19:10:08] * epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3e7361c15032e3c0) has joined #microformats
  426. [19:10:15] <mkaply> I want to have a way to specify the type of a property, so the "getters" are in the parser, not in the definitions
  427. [19:10:42] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  428. [19:10:49] <ianloic> yeah
  429. [19:10:56] <ianloic> I was trying to make mine totally js-free
  430. [19:11:00] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  431. [19:11:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  432. [19:11:23] <mkaply> ianloic: I don't think that's possible.
  433. [19:11:43] <mkaply> ianloic: In particular, looking at hReview where the item can be three different things. I don't know how to express that semantically
  434. [19:11:53] <ianloic> mkaply, I didn't get to hReview
  435. [19:11:57] * markp (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-c1c7576d63b45008) has joined #microformats
  436. [19:11:57] <jibot> markp is Mark Pilgrim
  437. [19:12:06] <ianloic> mkaply, and I don't know how you handle implied org and implied n in hcard
  438. [19:12:17] <mkaply> ianloic: Ah, that's interesting.
  439. [19:12:17] <ianloic> mkaply, and as we know hAtom entry titles are a disaster...
  440. [19:12:22] <bewest> hehe someone summoned the atom gods
  441. [19:12:23] <mkaply> I created an attribute called "virtual"
  442. [19:12:34] <mkaply> So basically, if a property is virtual, it's value is computed.
  443. [19:12:48] <kingryan> ianloic: why do you say that "entry titles are a disaster"?
  444. [19:12:53] <ianloic> mkaply, ahh, interesting
  445. [19:13:00] <mkaply> So if you say "getMicroformatProperty("n"), I say "Is there an n", if not, is "n" virtual, if so, compute it
  446. [19:13:13] <mkaply> ianloic: that's how I made that concept "generic"
  447. [19:13:27] <ianloic> kingryan, because the rules are very complex and unlike the rules in any other microformat
  448. [19:13:43] <mkaply> ianloic: how so - aren't entry-titles just the textContent of the entry-title node?
  449. [19:13:48] <kingryan> why does that mean it's a disaster?
  450. [19:14:04] <kingryan> hatom is adapted to existing practice
  451. [19:14:08] <ianloic> kingryan, so they're a disaster for someone like mkaply or myself who is trying to write a generic parser based on a grammar
  452. [19:14:11] <ianloic> mkaply, or they're the page title
  453. [19:14:26] <ianloic> mkaply, or they're the first <h#> in the content or something
  454. [19:14:27] <kingryan> ianloic: your values are obviously different than those that informed hatom's development
  455. [19:14:43] <mkaply> ianloic: entry-titles are required
  456. [19:14:46] <ianloic> kingryan, yes, I have no doubt
  457. [19:14:49] <mkaply> you're thinking of the feed title
  458. [19:14:59] <mkaply> which is supposed to be the title of the page.
  459. [19:15:09] <mkaply> the problem there is if the page has multiple feeds, they all get the same title - doh!
  460. [19:15:16] <ianloic> oh no
  461. [19:15:18] <ianloic> Entry Title
  462. [19:15:18] <ianloic> * an Entry Title element is identified by the class name entry-title
  463. [19:15:18] <ianloic> * an Entry SHOULD have an Entry Title
  464. [19:15:18] <ianloic> * an Entry Title element represents the concept of an Atom entry title (http://www.atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/atom-format-spec.php#rfc.section.4.2.14)
  465. [19:15:19] <ianloic> * if the Entry Title is missing, use
  466. [19:15:21] <ianloic> o the first <h#> element in the Entry, or
  467. [19:15:23] <ianloic> o the <title> of the page, if there is no enclosing Feed element, or
  468. [19:15:25] <ianloic> o assume it is the empty string
  469. [19:16:45] <ianloic> that's a disaster for me (but obviously not for others)
  470. [19:16:53] <mkaply> so then why does it say
  471. [19:16:54] <mkaply> entry-title. required. text.
  472. [19:17:11] <mkaply> Some required elements have defaults if missing. Argh
  473. [19:17:18] <ianloic> yeah
  474. [19:17:40] <ianloic> and by defaults you mean "a fairly complicated set of steps to guesstimate a default"
  475. [19:17:45] <mkaply> yeah. Finding the first h# entry in the entry is nontrivial
  476. [19:17:56] <ianloic> wow, guesstimate is in the gnome-spell default dictionary :)
  477. [19:18:01] <mkaply> and should we start with h1 and go down to h6? Or start with h6 and go to h1?
  478. [19:18:29] <ianloic> mkaply, I think you want the first of any kind
  479. [19:18:33] <kingryan> mkaply: "Finding the first h# entry in the entry is nontrivial" really? don't you have findBySelector() ?
  480. [19:19:25] <bewest> I think that's pretty good, actually
  481. [19:19:27] <ianloic> mkaply, FYI here's how I was attempting to define microformats: http://bzr.ianloic.com/nanoformats-trunk/nf-formats.js
  482. [19:19:39] <mkaply> kingryan: if it's not in Javascript, I don't have it. I would use XPath for that case.
  483. [19:19:43] <bewest> very clear path to handle what happens when expectations go awry
  484. [19:20:08] <bewest> mkaply: there are plenty of getElementsBySelector() implementations in JS
  485. [19:20:09] <kingryan> I thought FF had it implemented in the DOM, but maybe that's not until FF3
  486. [19:20:18] <ianloic> mkaply, I was half-way through a rewrite that used css selectors that I want to finish
  487. [19:20:41] <ianloic> kingryan, it's not in the DOM yet
  488. [19:20:48] <kingryan> ok
  489. [19:20:54] <bewest> even if it's not in the DOM, it's available
  490. [19:21:09] <ianloic> bewest, but why not just fail?
  491. [19:21:12] <kingryan> bewest: it's in FF3, not FF2
  492. [19:21:18] <mkaply> bewest: I'm not ready to start taking other people's code yet. I need to get it "released" as open source so people can contribute. Lawyer stuff
  493. [19:21:47] <mkaply> bewest: but ianloic's point is a little more generic.
  494. [19:22:00] <mkaply> Every says "can we create a way to express microformats that doesn't involve JS code"
  495. [19:22:06] <mkaply> s/Every/everyone
  496. [19:22:26] <ianloic> if it's simple to explain to machines it'll be simple to explain to people too
  497. [19:22:28] <mkaply> The answer is, with a special case like entry-title, clearly no. that alone will require it's own special bit of JS to find the entry-title
  498. [19:22:46] <ianloic> and if it's simple to explain to machines it'll be simple to get support for microformats everywhere
  499. [19:22:52] <mkaply> which is why in ufJSParser, we have the idea of "custom getters" for properties that are not so csimple
  500. [19:22:58] <AGraf``> [20:19:22] <ianloic> if it's simple to explain to machines it'll be simple to explain to people too
  501. [19:22:59] <AGraf``> ha
  502. [19:23:00] <ianloic> *and* it'll be simple to get bug-free implementations of microformats everywhere
  503. [19:23:05] <AGraf``> wish it were so
  504. [19:23:07] <AGraf``> :)
  505. [19:23:22] <AGraf``> that rule cannot be applied everywhere
  506. [19:23:27] <kingryan> AGraf``: http://microformats.org/tests/
  507. [19:23:36] <kingryan> that's how we get interoperable implementations
  508. [19:23:39] <ianloic> AGraf``, I don't think it can be applied everywhere but it can be a useful metric
  509. [19:24:08] <ianloic> AGraf``, the entry-title rule is complex enough that anyone writing hAtom marked up content will likely need to refer to the spec to write it
  510. [19:24:17] <AGraf``> kingryan: i know, i was just disagreeeing with the simple for machines = simple for humans rule in general ;9
  511. [19:24:29] <ianloic> AGraf``, and most-likely their editor will not be able to give them hints on how to write it acfurately
  512. [19:24:48] <AGraf``> so it's the other way round too
  513. [19:24:51] <AGraf``> at least sometimes it is
  514. [19:25:00] <AGraf``> simple for humans <=> simple for machines
  515. [19:25:08] <AGraf``> except for edge cases on both sides
  516. [19:25:47] <ianloic> well, compare html to PDF
  517. [19:26:13] <ianloic> I know that the one I'd choose to write by hand is the same one I'd choose to write a parser for
  518. [19:26:17] <AGraf``> i know what you mean ;) i was just disagreeing with the rule in general
  519. [19:26:21] <mkaply> ianloic: Not really, the answer is "write as you did before and let the parser figure it out"
  520. [19:26:25] <mkaply> and if you want a title, use entry-title
  521. [19:26:57] <ianloic> mkaply, yeah - if we need to make entry-title optional. or make it have a default empty string that's fine
  522. [19:27:40] <ianloic> mkaply, but the whole walk down the dom looking for H*, then walk up the dom looking for hfeed or title dance is madness
  523. [19:27:51] <ianloic> as a page author I'm confused!
  524. [19:28:20] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd088.rhi.hi.is) has joined #microformats
  525. [19:28:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  526. [19:28:20] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  527. [19:28:26] <mkaply> ianloic: It's not relevant for page authors.
  528. [19:28:37] <ianloic> mkaply, what's the status of licensing Operator?
  529. [19:28:39] <mkaply> Again, if the page author wants a title, use entry-title
  530. [19:28:51] <mkaply> That's only the fallback which a page author doesn't have to worry about
  531. [19:28:58] <ianloic> mkaply, if they don't want a title, what do they do? they can't just leave entry-title off
  532. [19:29:12] <mkaply> ianloic: Operator is released under the tri license right now (GPL/LGPL/MPL)
  533. [19:29:25] <mkaply> I'm working to make ufJS/ufJSParser available by themselves under a separate license
  534. [19:29:44] <ianloic> mkaply, nice - we're going to start revising the songbird page-scraping code at some point soon
  535. [19:29:54] <mkaply> If people want to give me changes to Operator (in particular ufJS/ufJSParser) they have to agree to relicensing
  536. [19:30:09] <ianloic> mkaply, ahh - ok
  537. [19:30:21] <ianloic> mkaply, what license are you planning on using, like MIT or something?
  538. [19:30:34] <mkaply> ianloic: Whatever my lawyers say to use - something friendly :)
  539. [19:31:21] <ianloic> mkaply, one of my goals for my uf parser was something I could embed in web pages - is that a use case you've thought about much?
  540. [19:31:39] <mkaply> ianloic: absolutely. The parser mostly works in web pages.
  541. [19:31:55] <ianloic> ocol
  542. [19:31:55] <mkaply> The main issue for web pages is getElementsByAttribute and getElementsByClassName
  543. [19:31:56] <ianloic> er
  544. [19:31:57] <ianloic> cool
  545. [19:31:59] <mkaply> I'm using XPath for Firefox
  546. [19:32:19] <mkaply> There are some good solutions out there (third party), but again, need to wait to get licensing straightened out
  547. [19:32:22] <ianloic> I was thinking of moving over to jQuery or dojo.query, but I wouldn't want to use either of them in chrome-land
  548. [19:32:48] <mkaply> ianloic: exactly
  549. [19:33:05] <mkaply> I don't think you'd want to bring dojo into chrome
  550. [19:33:32] <mkaply> I'm encountering a ton of problems just from the Array prototypes that McAfee SiteAdvisor adds
  551. [19:34:40] <mkaply> does dojo.query and jQuery work for attribute queries as well? or just classname?
  552. [19:34:58] <ianloic> mkaply, oh dude, we did that at Flock - many many headaches
  553. [19:35:10] <bewest> ianloic, mkaply, one of the lessons learned from html was that the fallback mechanisms were not clearly defined... hatom improves this state by describing what actions to take instead of just failing
  554. [19:35:12] <ianloic> I haven't looked at their query languages in detail
  555. [19:35:40] <ianloic> bewest, I agree to disagree with you
  556. [19:35:47] <bewest> mkaply: yeah, I have processes for releasing stuff too...
  557. [19:36:27] <bewest> jquery implements a getElementsBySelector() it can do attributes as well
  558. [19:36:28] <kingryan> mkaply: jquery does everything up to CSS3, I believe. dunno about dojo.query
  559. [19:36:41] <bewest> I saw an interesting implementation that converts a selector into an xpath
  560. [19:37:39] * briansuda has to use CSS3 to hide stuff from IE7
  561. [19:37:52] <bewest> http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2006/03/faster/
  562. [19:48:34] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) has joined #microformats
  563. [19:48:34] <jibot> dydimustk is writing at http://dydimustk.com/blog
  564. [19:49:40] <mkaply> bewest: interesting
  565. [19:52:49] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  566. [19:53:47] * briansuda (n=briansud@bokd088.rhi.hi.is) Quit ()
  567. [19:54:37] <mkaply> cssQuery is nice, but it's LGPL
  568. [19:55:11] <kingryan> silly mozilla and their tri-licensing :D
  569. [19:55:44] <mkaply> yeah. Licensing sucks. Big time
  570. [19:55:52] <mkaply> when you throw IBM lawyers in the mix...
  571. [19:55:56] <ianloic> yeah, but trilicensing makes it possible for other folks to do all kinds of commercial stuff
  572. [19:56:22] <kingryan> ianloic: just use lgpl or a BSD-style license, then
  573. [19:56:52] <mkaply> ianloic: yeah. BSD is enough
  574. [19:56:53] <ianloic> kingryan, well yes, except neither would satisfy all the "requirements"
  575. [19:57:08] <mkaply> the problem with trilicensing is that if I want to use it, I have to go to the originator and ask them to relicense
  576. [19:57:19] <mkaply> So what I need to do, is find the "best" implementation of a css Selector query
  577. [19:57:31] <mkaply> and then get them to let me have it under the MPL and whatever license I license ufJSPArser under
  578. [19:57:38] <ianloic> mkaply, the dojo guys think theirs is fairly good
  579. [19:57:49] <ianloic> mkaply, and doesn't depend on too much outside of dojo
  580. [19:58:01] <ianloic> I wonder how its licensed
  581. [19:58:04] <mkaply> ianloic: yeah, and dojo has some special dispensation in the IBM world
  582. [19:58:17] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.86.178.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  583. [19:58:33] <mkaply> http://dojotoolkit.org/foundation/#license
  584. [19:58:35] <vbgunz> isn't label in hCard redundant?
  585. [19:59:06] <kingryan> vbgunz: not neccessarily
  586. [19:59:16] <kingryan> you may have special instructions or formatting
  587. [20:00:00] <mkaply> My problem with dojo is everything it brings along. I'd prefer something more self contained...
  588. [20:00:18] <kingryan> have you looked at YUI?
  589. [20:00:47] <vbgunz> kingryan: oh? I figured you would probably embed label into the adr and while your at it, why not just turn the type in an abbr. at this point they look the same, I'll keep having a crack at it I guess :)
  590. [20:00:52] <mkaply> dojo.query requires NodesList which requires langg/dom/expermental
  591. [20:01:47] <kingryan> vbgunz: that'd be one way to do it
  592. [20:02:38] <vbgunz> very cool, thanks :)
  593. [20:03:14] <mkaply> kingryan: YUI has classname stuff, but I don't see attribute stuff (or CSS selectors)
  594. [20:03:32] <kingryan> that may be true, I haven't used it myself
  595. [20:03:38] * kingryan uses jquery mostly
  596. [20:04:48] <mkaply> kingryan: Have you seen the speed comparisons with the new DOMQuery?
  597. [20:04:52] <mkaply> http://www.jackslocum.com/blog/2007/01/11/domquery-css-selector-basic-xpath-implementation-with-benchmarks/
  598. [20:05:09] * epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-e02afc62d2e50dab) has joined #microformats
  599. [20:05:24] <_fil_> jquery rocks
  600. [20:05:37] <ianloic> we need something that can split attributes right so we can handle rel & rev
  601. [20:05:38] * _fil_ doesn't look back
  602. [20:06:01] <ianloic> we need ufquery :)
  603. [20:07:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13828 * RyanKing * (+104) added aol journals
  604. [20:08:07] <kingryan> mkaply: that's nice domquery looks sweet!
  605. [20:08:33] <mkaply> kingryan: you have to read this post
  606. [20:08:34] <mkaply> http://www.jackslocum.com/blog/2007/01/12/domquery-in-response-to-jquerys-response/
  607. [20:08:36] <mkaply> It's awesome.
  608. [20:10:08] <mkaply> DOMQuery requires some YUI right now though
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  613. [20:12:32] * danja (n=danja@host133-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  615. [20:14:20] <vbgunz> kingryan: May I ask, is this legal: class="type label" OR should I *nest* type within label?
  616. [20:14:34] <kingryan> it must be nested
  617. [20:14:45] <vbgunz> ahh, thanks :)
  618. [20:15:00] <_fil_> yes ufquery would be a very nice jquery plugin
  619. [20:17:50] <mkaply> The other idea I had was to provide a default impl, and check for other impls and use them if they are there
  620. [20:18:02] <mkaply> if (dojo.query) if (jquery)
  621. [20:19:18] * iand (n=iand@213.205.219.150) has joined #microformats
  622. [20:24:11] <mfbot> [[species-examples-quantitative]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=13829 * AndyMabbett * (+16) ehader
  623. [20:28:11] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) has joined #microformats
  624. [20:28:11] <jibot> DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
  625. [20:28:45] <DanC> re "what profile URI to use for combinations, such as hcard and hcalendar?" I see "Resolved: HTML4.01 (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-profile) states "that one or more meta data profiles, [are] separated by white space."
  626. [20:28:50] <DanC> is that really resolved?
  627. [20:29:20] <DanC> a year ago, tantek and I talked about one profile for the combination
  628. [20:29:37] <DanC> the change is dated 12 Jul 2006, so it's been there for a while
  629. [20:29:49] * DanC doesn't know ScottReynen
  630. [20:31:07] <bewest> DanC: ScottReynen is sreynen
  631. [20:31:19] <sreynen> indeed i am
  632. [20:31:23] <DanC> ah. hi.
  633. [20:31:46] <DanC> in what sense is that "resolved"? was there plenty of community discussion?
  634. [20:32:13] <sreynen> where is this?
  635. [20:32:26] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.86.178.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  636. [20:32:30] <DanC> oops; sorry... http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris
  637. [20:33:49] <sreynen> i don't remember the context of making that change, but is there something wrong with the HTML recommendation of space-separated profiles?
  638. [20:33:58] * danja (n=danja@host133-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  639. [20:33:58] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  640. [20:34:04] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  641. [20:34:32] <DanC> usability. tantek was interested in just one profile URI for usability/simplicity
  642. [20:34:58] <sreynen> are the two mutually exclusive?
  643. [20:35:08] <DanC> no
  644. [20:35:20] <DanC> but the fact that two are allowed doesn't resolve the issue of wanting a combined profile
  645. [20:35:45] <sreynen> i guess i misread the issue
  646. [20:35:55] <DanC> ok
  647. [20:36:01] <sreynen> i didn't realize the desire was to combine two profiles into one
  648. [20:36:11] <sreynen> i thought it was just combine two profiles in the same header
  649. [20:36:26] * DanC logs into the wiki, wishing for openid support, again
  650. [20:37:43] <mfbot> [[profile-uris]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=profile-uris&diff=0&oldid=13830 * DanC * (+65) un-resolve and clarify the combined profile issue
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  654. [20:48:01] <mkaply> AGraf``: still arond?
  655. [20:52:25] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
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  665. [21:16:25] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13831 * AndyMabbett * (+252) Species - update
  666. [21:17:06] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13832 * AndyMabbett * (+252) update
  667. [21:19:25] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  668. [21:21:08] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13833 * QuWiki * (+5) New Examples -
  669. [21:21:57] * lucasvo (n=lucasvo@wservices.ch) has left #microformats
  670. [21:23:08] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  671. [21:23:08] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  672. [21:27:37] * tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
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  678. [21:35:56] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-bdcc4ab5ac27e200) Quit ("Leaving")
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  680. [21:41:45] * danja (n=danja@host133-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  681. [21:41:46] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  683. [21:44:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  689. [21:53:36] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  690. [21:54:20] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  691. [21:56:26] * nostrich (n=nostrich@host86-133-143-27.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  692. [21:57:07] * jcw9 (n=jonathan@WILLIAMSJ01.ADMIN.ED.NYU.EDU) has joined #microformats
  693. [21:57:07] <jibot> jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
  694. [22:00:23] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
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  698. [22:11:20] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=13834 * DanC * (+37) wishing
  699. [22:12:16] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=13835 * DanC * (-41) oops
  700. [22:12:33] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=13836 * DanC * (+37) wishing
  701. [22:12:39] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-12-sxsw-growth-evolution-of&diff=0&oldid=13837 * DanC * (-1) Would Like to Attend -
  702. [22:16:01] * markp (i=chatzill@nat/ibm/x-c1c7576d63b45008) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  703. [22:16:37] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-70-238-250-86.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  704. [22:16:37] <jibot> chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
  705. [22:16:59] * chimezie (n=chime@adsl-70-238-250-86.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has left #microformats
  706. [22:25:47] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@CPE0050181121d5-CM0012254493da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  707. [22:27:17] * dydimustk (n=tk@c-66-41-249-143.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  708. [22:27:17] <jibot> dydimustk is writing at http://dydimustk.com/blog
  709. [22:36:57] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  710. [22:37:14] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
  711. [22:39:30] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.18.23.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  712. [22:42:11] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13838 * AndyMabbett * (+1440) Synonyms - reply (and remove obsolete commentary)
  713. [22:42:42] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13839 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Synonyms - embolden quote
  714. [22:43:08] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13840 * AndyMabbett * (+6) Synonyms -
  715. [22:43:29] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13841 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Synonyms -
  716. [22:44:07] <Atamido> So was anything ever decided about making links to more complete information?
  717. [22:44:35] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13842 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Synonyms - fix
  718. [22:45:01] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13843 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Synonyms -
  719. [22:47:19] * SamRose (n=chatzill@c-71-197-25-180.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")
  720. [22:48:47] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13844 * AndyMabbett * (+133) Synonyms -
  721. [22:50:48] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13845 * AndyMabbett * (+226) Synonyms - multiple and foreign-language common names
  722. [22:53:36] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-d9f5611869a48169) has joined #microformats
  723. [22:53:36] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  724. [22:54:22] <AGraf``> mkaply: back now
  725. [22:55:29] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13846 * AndyMabbett * (+5) Synonyms -
  726. [22:55:41] <AGraf``> [21:44:56] <mkaply> AGraf``: still arond?
  727. [22:56:45] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13847 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Synonyms - italicise
  728. [22:58:01] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13848 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Synonyms - :
  729. [22:58:42] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13849 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Synonyms -
  730. [22:59:20] * dydimustk (n=tk@c-66-41-249-143.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) Quit ("ERC Version 5.2 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  731. [23:00:25] * dydimustk (n=tk@66.41.249.143) has joined #microformats
  732. [23:00:32] * Ashe|tp (n=ashe@M316P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  733. [23:02:44] <mkaply> AGraf``: email me your ideas. I'm open to new UI ideas for Operator
  734. [23:02:47] <mkaply> gtta run
  735. [23:02:47] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-d9f5611869a48169) Quit ("Leaving")
  736. [23:03:18] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13850 * AndyMabbett * (-280) Response to Pengo by Andy Mabbett - rm. obsolete fragements
  737. [23:07:34] * dydimustk (n=tk@66.41.249.143) Quit ("ERC Version 5.2 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)")
  738. [23:07:45] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13851 * AndyMabbett * (+76) Citations for authorites - hCite?
  739. [23:08:16] <mfbot> [[species-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13852 * AndyMabbett * (+59) Citations for authorites - sign my last
  740. [23:08:21] * dydimustk (n=tk@c-66-41-249-143.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  743. [23:17:17] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@62.47.207.101) Quit ("Quit")
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  748. [23:25:59] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  761. [23:51:05] * bear is now known as bear_afk

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.