IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  17. [00:45:02] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  18. [00:45:47] <mfbot> [[rel-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=14113 * XrX * (+44) Is/Was VoteLinks a proper use of rel? -
  19. [00:46:53] * trovster (n=trovster@user-544318bd.lns4-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk) Quit ()
  20. [00:48:08] <mfbot> [[rel-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=14114 * Tantek * (-44) Reverted edit of XrX, changed back to last version by AndyMabbett
  21. [00:48:16] <tantek> who is XrX?
  22. [00:48:31] <tantek> rel nofollow may have issues, but they are different from vote-links issues.
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  27. [01:08:50] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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  49. [05:12:18] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  50. [05:52:29] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  51. [06:04:18] <mfbot> [[firefox-extensions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=firefox-extensions&diff=0&oldid=14115 * JamesCraig * (+1) Note: should this page be renamed plugins or something less vendor-specific than Operator?
  52. [06:21:33] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abx104.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
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  61. [07:14:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  71. [07:59:21] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  72. [07:59:22] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  75. [08:17:04] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  76. [08:17:04] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  81. [08:56:16] * Charl (n=charlvn@196.209.243.12) has joined #microformats
  82. [08:56:16] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  83. [08:58:41] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  84. [08:58:41] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  86. [09:22:45] <jibot> woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT 0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/ and Steven Woods, http://www.swoo.co.uk - He is situated in Newcastle, UK (GMT 0000).
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  91. [09:38:51] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) has joined #microformats
  92. [09:38:51] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  96. [10:36:35] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  97. [10:36:35] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  101. [10:51:49] <jibot> drewinthehead is a person too
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  110. [11:42:30] * bengee (n=bengee@82.207.128.166) has joined #microformats
  111. [11:42:30] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  113. [12:37:08] <drewinthehead> ?forgetme
  114. [12:37:08] <jibot> I have expunged drewinthehead from my mind
  115. [12:38:25] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and a person too
  116. [12:38:25] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and a person too
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  120. [12:55:10] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  124. [13:11:06] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  126. [13:26:27] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  139. [14:21:47] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  141. [14:23:13] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  154. [15:34:22] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  157. [15:48:24] <mfbot> [[hreview-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=14116 * ChristopheDucamp * (+154) Nouveaux Exemples -
  158. [15:53:09] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
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  161. [16:04:31] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-3c1d7a7937e722ae) has joined #microformats
  162. [16:04:31] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  163. [16:12:27] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-3c1d7a7937e722ae) Quit ("Leaving")
  164. [16:29:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14117 * Christina Hope * (+140) New Examples -
  165. [16:29:44] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-4a6582cd7c85b2a5) has joined #microformats
  166. [16:29:45] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  167. [16:31:17] * davecardwell (n=davecard@host81-152-71-252.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  168. [16:31:17] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  169. [16:36:47] * tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  170. [16:39:32] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14118 * Christina Hope * (-837) Examples with some problems -
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  184. [17:22:16] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-44f9ad8bb2d02bb5) has left #microformats
  185. [17:23:02] <mkaply> tantek: there's a bad microformat on your web page!
  186. [17:23:02] <mkaply> <span class="location vcard">Renaissance Vancouver Hotel Harbourside</span>
  187. [17:24:52] <tantek> oops!
  188. [17:25:03] <tantek> good find mkaply :)
  189. [17:25:41] <mkaply> It's all Operator :)
  190. [17:29:14] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  191. [17:35:47] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  192. [17:44:15] * mkaply is trying to think of a clever way to expose his email to through operator but not through the web page
  193. [17:44:27] <mkaply> Unfortunately, because email address use class="value"
  194. [17:44:37] <mkaply> You can't use the "value" stuff to split it up, can you?
  195. [17:46:34] <mkaply> ooh it does work. clever
  196. [17:46:51] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  197. [17:47:01] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  198. [17:52:28] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  199. [17:53:47] <mkaply> briansuda:
  200. [17:53:50] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/about
  201. [17:54:05] <mkaply> Can you have values nested in values for email? This is working with operator but not with X2V
  202. [17:54:32] <Prometheus^> ibm, scary man!
  203. [17:54:36] <Prometheus^> :D
  204. [17:54:52] <briansuda> example?
  205. [17:55:07] <mkaply> briansuda: I just put it on my weblog. I obfuscated my email using microformats
  206. [17:55:12] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/about
  207. [17:55:36] <mkaply> <SPAN class="email"><SPAN class="value"><BR/>
  208. [17:55:36] <mkaply> <SPAN class="value">m</SPAN>no<SPAN class="value">k</SPAN>lm<SPAN class="value">a</SPAN>bc<SPAN class="value">p</SPAN>qr<SPAN class="value">l</SPAN>mn<SPAN class="value">y</SPAN>za<SPAN class="value">@</SPAN><SPAN class="value">u</SPAN>vw<SPAN class="value">s</SPAN>tu<SPAN class="value">.</SPAN><SPAN class="value">i</SPAN>jk<SPAN class="value">b</SPAN>cd<SPAN class="value">m</SPAN>no<SPAN class="value">.</SPAN><SPAN class="value">c</SPAN
  209. [17:55:36] <mkaply> >de<SPAN class="value">o</SPAN>pq<SPAN class="value">m</SPAN>no</SPAN></SPAN>
  210. [17:55:36] <mkaply> </P>
  211. [17:55:50] <Prometheus^> you don't like spam, do you
  212. [17:55:51] <Prometheus^> :)
  213. [17:56:25] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) has joined #microformats
  214. [17:56:25] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  215. [17:56:30] <mkaply> Prometheus^: I just thought it would be fine to show how you can use a microformat to obfuscate the email. It came to me in a dream
  216. [17:56:45] <Prometheus^> mkaply: it's :)
  217. [17:56:57] <mkaply> s/fine/fun
  218. [17:57:07] <Prometheus^> btw, I don't find IBM people really all that scary, my dad works for ibm too
  219. [17:57:08] <briansuda> is that on a page somewhere so i can see X2V output?
  220. [17:57:24] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/about
  221. [17:57:49] <briansuda> ah, don't wrap everything in it inside a class="value"
  222. [17:58:06] <mkaply> duh
  223. [17:58:08] * mkaply fixes that
  224. [17:58:25] <mkaply> wait
  225. [17:58:41] <mkaply> class="value" for an email works like class="value' for everything else?
  226. [17:59:26] <mkaply> wait. this should work.
  227. [18:02:48] <mkaply> Ah. I see my problem. I see a "value" and take the "there must be a type" path.
  228. [18:03:07] <mkaply> So if there is one value, I should check for more than one value and do something different
  229. [18:09:38] <briansuda> ??? not sure what you mean
  230. [18:09:46] <briansuda> we don't have alot of test cases for VALUE
  231. [18:10:02] <briansuda> there are some issues of nesting and including things multiple times.
  232. [18:10:15] <briansuda> A->B->C, then you will get ABCBC
  233. [18:10:40] <briansuda> or maybe ABCC?
  234. [18:13:58] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  235. [18:14:00] <mkaply> briansuda: email is kind of weird in terms of how it gets handles.
  236. [18:14:02] <mkaply> There can be this
  237. [18:14:15] <mkaply> <A href="mailto:neuroNOSPAM@t37.net" class="email">
  238. [18:14:15] <mkaply> <SPAN class="type">pref</SPAN><SPAN>erred email</SPAN>
  239. [18:14:15] <mkaply> </A>
  240. [18:14:24] <mkaply> or this
  241. [18:15:18] <mkaply> <span class="email"><span class="type">work</span><span class="value">foo@bar.com</span></span<
  242. [18:15:28] <mkaply> or <span class="email">email address</span>
  243. [18:15:28] <briansuda> i'd say the first would NOT find the TYPE
  244. [18:15:36] <briansuda> but i think it does
  245. [18:15:43] <mkaply> actually, the first is supposed to per the "hard testcases"
  246. [18:16:12] <briansuda> ok.
  247. [18:16:28] * mkaply tries to find that page
  248. [18:17:01] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#GEO_parsing
  249. [18:17:51] <mkaply> I ws mishandling value. If I saw a value in email, I assumed it was for the purpose of saving the entire email. Now I check to see if there are multiple values under email, it is the "value" design pattern
  250. [18:19:02] <briansuda> i would say that example is NOT a test example. (it is probably incorrect in my opinion)
  251. [18:19:09] * shawn (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  252. [18:19:10] <briansuda> it doesn't "smell" right
  253. [18:19:20] <briansuda> anyone could have added that to the wiki.
  254. [18:19:55] <mkaply> email is really the only one you can do that with because the value can be contained in a single tag
  255. [18:19:58] <mkaply> although, is this valid?
  256. [18:20:23] <mkaply> <abbr class="tel" title="5551212"><span type="work">work</span></abbr>
  257. [18:23:01] <briansuda> is it?
  258. [18:23:18] <mkaply> I don't know. I'm asking you :)
  259. [18:23:26] <mkaply> it's the same pattern as the email thing
  260. [18:23:26] <briansuda> i would say class="tel" is the container, then look for a type. IF you have TYPE then you have to have VALUE
  261. [18:23:39] <mkaply> ok, that's the issue. Does type require value.
  262. [18:23:54] <briansuda> i'm not sure if there are parsing rules somewhere for that? let me check the test suite...
  263. [18:23:59] * iand (n=iand@talis.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  264. [18:24:03] <briansuda> shouldn't you be at SXSW in a bar somewhere?
  265. [18:24:12] <mkaply> it hasn't started yet.
  266. [18:24:32] <mkaply> Besides, I still need to get Operator working well enough to demo it.
  267. [18:25:59] <mkaply> briansuda: I'm considering adding an outlook specific export option. There are so many bugs in Outlook.
  268. [18:26:33] <briansuda> such as? and we have a wiki page which lists most of them
  269. [18:28:02] <briansuda> http://hg.microformats.org/tests?f=859c45b9fe6d;file=hcard/21-tel.html;style=gitweb is the TEL test, i would say this is the only authoritative test on TYPE/VALUES
  270. [18:28:33] <mkaply> it doesn't handle utf8
  271. [18:28:40] <mkaply> that's a biggie
  272. [18:28:59] <mkaply> I was pretty frustrated to find that out
  273. [18:29:09] <briansuda> well, other address books had the same issue, but it was a case of no BOM (byte order markers)
  274. [18:29:31] <mkaply> At this point, my export looks just like yours, and I believe it would work on Mac no prob
  275. [18:29:34] <mkaply> Just not on outlook express
  276. [18:29:43] <mkaply> s/outlook express/outlook
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  281. [18:43:35] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  282. [18:43:51] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  285. [18:46:36] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  286. [18:46:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  287. [18:47:07] <kingryan> howdy folks
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  294. [19:00:50] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
  295. [19:00:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  296. [19:00:50] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  297. [19:04:16] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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  299. [19:04:55] <jibot> jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
  300. [19:05:10] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
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  304. [19:16:16] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  305. [19:16:16] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  306. [19:18:32] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  307. [19:19:44] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
  308. [19:21:39] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9dbc944193563f84) has joined #microformats
  309. [19:30:10] <mkaply> someone needs to educate o'reilly etech on good microformats
  310. [19:32:15] * mylesbraithwaite (n=mylesbra@206-248-176-11.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  311. [19:32:26] <briansuda> what do you mean?
  312. [19:35:42] <mkaply> briansuda: they have the entire microformat nested in the summary
  313. [19:35:48] <mkaply> http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/52/tutorials.html
  314. [19:36:38] <mkaply> and when people do this it drives me crazy
  315. [19:36:39] <mkaply> <SPAN class="location"><B>Location:</B> Gallery<BR/></SPAN>
  316. [19:36:39] <briansuda> well, not optimal, but not incorrect
  317. [19:36:52] * briansuda agrees!!!
  318. [19:36:55] <mkaply> well, it means that when you grab the summary, you get the entire microformat which ends up with a crappy summary
  319. [19:37:10] <briansuda> true, but not incorrect/invalid
  320. [19:37:35] <mkaply> I'm seeing a weird character when I send the location to google though. Can't figure out what it is
  321. [19:37:50] <mkaply> in the location
  322. [19:37:56] <mkaply> must be something I'm doing
  323. [19:38:16] <briansuda> or maybe it is a weird Unicode char that you can't see?
  324. [19:38:27] <briansuda> like a NULL or a bad LineBreak or something
  325. [19:40:15] <kingryan> anyone wanna help markup http://2007.sxsw.com/interactive/evening_events/ with hcalendar?
  326. [19:40:39] * trovster (n=trovster@user-544318bd.lns4-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  327. [19:40:39] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  328. [19:41:09] <mkaply> Yeah. I think it is a weird unicode char
  329. [19:41:20] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  330. [19:41:24] <mkaply> kingryan: Can we get them to fix their session page so it doesn't have all the people in hidden microformats?
  331. [19:41:37] <kingryan> they said they were going to
  332. [19:41:41] <kingryan> has it not been done?
  333. [19:41:46] <ianloic> hmm,
  334. [19:41:55] * briansuda has seen lots of crazy stuff since he started looking at other peoples HTML - slightly voyeuristic
  335. [19:42:27] * mkaply goes to look again
  336. [19:42:29] <ianloic> I wonder if there's a place for a greasemonkey-like tool to add the right classes and rels to pages so operator can grok them
  337. [19:42:54] <mkaply> kingryan: ah. it's done.
  338. [19:42:59] <briansuda> how would the greasemonkey know where to put them?
  339. [19:43:01] <mkaply> kingryan: much better - microformats only on the panels
  340. [19:43:25] <ianloic> briansuda, well it could be a platform for writing little scripts to mark up pages in a known format with microformats
  341. [19:43:32] <tantek> but is the big list of speakers still marked up with hundreds of hCards?
  342. [19:43:40] <ianloic> so I could write a script that would turn yelp pages into valid hReviews
  343. [19:44:16] <mkaply> tantek: no. hurrah
  344. [19:44:19] <mkaply> http://2007.sxsw.com/interactive/programming/speakers/
  345. [19:44:31] <tantek> why hurrah for no?
  346. [19:44:56] <mkaply> tantek: because they really didn't convey any information except a web page. And they made Operator slow :)
  347. [19:45:27] <tantek> mkaply, even just name+url is very valuable
  348. [19:45:29] <tantek> so "any information except" is not sufficient reasoning
  349. [19:45:37] <tantek> and if they made operator slow then it was a good test case
  350. [19:46:02] <tantek> besides, how else are you supposed to be able to 1-click add all 450+ speakers to your address book?
  351. [19:46:08] <mkaply> tantek: I have big testcases :) What I need is Firefox getElementsByClassName. I think that will help immensely.
  352. [19:46:40] <mkaply> I use Lotus Notes address book - it wouldn't work anyway! !:)
  353. [19:46:57] <tantek> uh what? Lotus Notes address book doesn't support vCard? you're kidding right?
  354. [19:47:33] <bewest> mkaply: do you really need to wait for a built-in getElementsByClassName/getElementsBySelector ? there are plenty of pure-javascript implementations available, some of which automatically optimize the queries for a particular browser
  355. [19:47:34] <mkaply> it supports vcard, but only via manual import.
  356. [19:47:52] <mkaply> so I can only make it work in Operator to save the card, and then import.
  357. [19:47:54] <bewest> eg, there is a version of getElementsBySelector which will, in firefox, recalculate the query into an XPATH query
  358. [19:47:55] <mkaply> Plus it is finicky
  359. [19:48:15] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  360. [19:48:45] <mkaply> bewest: Either they have an incompatible license or they don't work "standalone"
  361. [19:48:57] * mkaply loves open source
  362. [19:51:35] <mkaply> DomQuery looks good but requires one function from yahooui
  363. [19:51:53] <mkaply> I don't feel like bringing along dojo for dojo.query
  364. [19:52:25] <bewest> so rip it out
  365. [19:52:35] <bewest> there are plenty of standalone versions
  366. [19:53:19] <mkaply> jquery is available under MIT, but I'll have to go through and remove all the crap I don't need
  367. [19:53:28] <bewest> http://www.joehewitt.com/blog/files/getElementsBySelector.js
  368. [19:53:32] <bewest> standalone
  369. [19:54:39] <mkaply> bewest: I'm already using xpath. I need a good library that work in IE and Firefox, and uses xpath only when it is faster
  370. [19:54:40] <mkaply> http://blog.dojotoolkit.org/2007/02/04/dojoquery-a-css-query-engine-for-dojo
  371. [19:54:56] <mkaply> I'm still working on finding all my bottlenecks
  372. [19:55:31] <bewest> in that case: http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2006/03/faster/
  373. [19:56:18] <bewest> I like prototype.js, personally
  374. [19:56:32] <bewest> I like using the event handling stuff too
  375. [19:56:43] <bewest> and the bind() stuff comes in handy as well
  376. [19:59:31] * mkaply actually does need a page with 500 hcards. Anyone know of one?
  377. [20:00:23] * pnhChris works with both prototype and jquery
  378. [20:00:53] <pnhChris> but haven't done any serious performance comparisons between them
  379. [20:01:43] <mkaply> Isn't there someone around that works at flock?
  380. [20:01:44] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9dbc944193563f84) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  381. [20:02:13] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  382. [20:03:04] <pnhChris> most i find on a quick look around is 83 cards
  383. [20:03:39] <mkaply> pnhChris: can you give me one of those? Maybe it's slow too
  384. [20:03:51] <mkaply> plus I can duplicate it. Since one of my bottlenecks is removing duplicates
  385. [20:04:01] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
  386. [20:04:11] * mkaply should add a disclaimer in prefs
  387. [20:04:17] <pnhChris> http://www.webstandards.org/about/members/
  388. [20:04:27] <pnhChris> though probably not too many dupes there
  389. [20:04:44] <pnhChris> .. unless you dupe them yourself
  390. [20:05:50] * iand_ (n=iand@89.192.39.221) has joined #microformats
  391. [20:06:22] <mkaply> hangs operator for a second. Let me make it bigger
  392. [20:07:28] * nfolson (n=nfolson@CPE-76-177-177-204.natsoe.res.rr.com) Quit ()
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  394. [20:08:06] <mkaply> 551. Nice hang
  395. [20:11:22] <mkaply> It's actually the XUL / menu creation stuff that's taking so long, not the DOM parsing
  396. [20:13:43] * mkaply really doesn't feel like switching back to building menus on the fly
  397. [20:28:44] * iand (n=iand@89.192.39.221) has joined #microformats
  398. [20:28:44] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  399. [20:30:27] <mfbot> [[events/2007-04-15-Web2Expo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-15-Web2Expo&diff=0&oldid=14119 * Rohit * (+743)
  400. [20:32:08] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=14120 * Rohit * (+201) Upcoming -
  401. [20:36:33] * iand_ (n=iand@89.192.39.221) Quit (Success)
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  403. [20:45:39] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=14121 * Rohit * (-154) Upcoming -
  404. [20:47:10] <mfbot> [[events/2007-03-27-ETech07Proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-03-27-ETech07Proposal&diff=0&oldid=14122 * Rohit * (+20)
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  410. [21:18:55] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  415. [21:32:55] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f2b62c0cd297760c) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  416. [21:33:01] * BobJonkman (n=John@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  417. [21:33:37] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181164208.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  418. [21:36:48] <mkaply> So general opinion question - is it important to remove duplicate hcard and hcalendar entries? How common will that be where two microformats that are EXACTLY the same are on a page?
  419. [21:37:19] <tantek> reasonably common on blogs where every hyperlinked reference to a person is marked up semantically as an hCard
  420. [21:37:34] <mkaply> like yedda.
  421. [21:37:46] <mkaply> The problem is it is a very expensive operation in Javascript.
  422. [21:37:52] * mkaply will figure out how to optimize it
  423. [21:38:10] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  424. [21:39:51] <kingryan> anyone else having trouble connecting to microformats.org?
  425. [21:44:51] * briansuda says it works for him
  426. [21:45:05] <kingryan> it appears to be our office isp dns
  427. [21:49:53] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  428. [21:55:15] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  429. [21:59:33] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  430. [22:05:52] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  431. [22:06:30] * kingryan_ (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  432. [22:07:03] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  433. [22:10:05] <mkaply> does anyone know if class="uid" outside of a microformat has any semantic meaning?
  434. [22:10:07] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit ()
  435. [22:10:54] <bewest> mkaply: iirc, it doesn't even show up in Google's HTML authoring report
  436. [22:11:12] <bewest> then again neither does vcard
  437. [22:11:28] <mkaply> I really want to eliminate the duplicate hcalendars on eventful.com. The only way to tell them apart is that microsoft in all of their live clipboard samples does
  438. [22:11:37] <mkaply> <SPAN title="E0-001-001775953-8" class="vevent uid">
  439. [22:11:54] <mkaply> uid and vevent on the vevent span
  440. [22:12:03] <briansuda> it should be a child of vevent
  441. [22:12:35] <mkaply> Microsoft's live clipboard samples suck so bad. They encouraged eventful.com to duplicate their microformat on the page. Stupid
  442. [22:12:53] <mkaply> as opposed to Live clipboard being able to be attached to an existing microformat
  443. [22:13:44] <bewest> although class="uid" appears on aproximately 32k documents
  444. [22:14:16] <mkaply> actually, that's an eventful bug. Maybe I can use it to my advantage...
  445. [22:14:18] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  446. [22:14:21] <mkaply> http://spaces.live.com/editorial/rayozzie/demo/liveclip/liveclipsample/clipboardexample.html
  447. [22:14:23] <briansuda> some of the eventful developers are normally in this channel
  448. [22:14:25] <mkaply> doesn't have uid on vevent
  449. [22:15:14] <bewest> what's an eventful bug?
  450. [22:15:45] <mkaply> bewest, well it depends. If they intended that uid to be associated with the vevent, it should have been in the vevent.
  451. [22:15:47] <mkaply> Not on the vevent
  452. [22:15:58] <mkaply> and they are using title= in a SPAN to mean the uid
  453. [22:19:40] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14123 * AndyMabbett * (+89) SVG hCard
  454. [22:20:01] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14124 * AndyMabbett * (+0) -==Non-HTML examples= - fix sub-head
  455. [22:20:27] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14125 * AndyMabbett * (+18) Non-HTML examples - credit
  456. [22:20:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=14126 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Non-HTML examples - punct
  457. [22:21:36] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) has joined #microformats
  458. [22:21:36] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  459. [22:21:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  460. [22:23:20] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  461. [22:23:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  462. [22:23:20] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  463. [22:29:00] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  464. [22:29:00] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  465. [22:29:00] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and a person too
  466. [22:30:12] <kingryan> hober: you see the discussion above re: eventful and uid?
  467. [22:35:05] * hober catches up
  468. [22:36:01] <hober> Ahh.
  469. [22:36:32] <mkaply> hober: I just wish there was some way that eventful.com microformats looked prettier in Operator
  470. [22:36:34] <hober> mkaply: I'll try to fix the UID markup in the next few days
  471. [22:36:40] <hober> mkaply: me too
  472. [22:36:53] <hober> ObLiveClipboardGrumble
  473. [22:37:07] <mkaply> hober: There's no need for a separate microformat for live clipboard
  474. [22:37:10] <kingryan> hober: would you consider adding UID to the events (venues already have it)?
  475. [22:37:28] <mkaply> hober: I created testcases where the live clipboard was attached to an existing microformats
  476. [22:37:57] <hober> mkaply: agreed; it was a misunderstanding on the part of the developer who implemented our LiveClipboard support
  477. [22:38:01] <mkaply> IT's only the microsoft sampels where they do it twice
  478. [22:38:14] <hober> kingryan: yes, adding to ~/TODO
  479. [22:38:17] <mkaply> hober: especially since your Live Clipboard microformats aren't as complete as your page microformats
  480. [22:38:25] <hober> exactly
  481. [22:39:47] <briansuda> hopefully Operator can bridge that gap and make ANY microformat a Live ClipBoard object and remove the need for both
  482. [22:40:42] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f0db0ba797fe2453) has joined #microformats
  483. [22:40:59] <mkaply> briansuda: That was one of the ideas :)
  484. [22:41:00] * kingryan_ (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  485. [22:41:15] <mkaply> all these sites could drop their "add to foo calendar" and just use Operator! :)
  486. [22:41:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  487. [22:41:27] <mkaply> Especially since it works better than the built in upcoming version
  488. [22:41:28] <mkaply> :)
  489. [22:41:39] * mkaply hasn't checked the eventful bugs lately
  490. [22:41:39] <briansuda> or FF3
  491. [22:41:54] <mkaply> The FF3 thing is confusing. I'm sure I'll get asked that Monday.
  492. [22:42:03] <mkaply> They haven't decided what they want to do with mciroformats, they just know they want them
  493. [22:42:10] <mkaply> So there is no guarantee the work I am doing will go in there.
  494. [22:42:10] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=14127 * AndyMabbett * (+40) link to Wikipedia (for definition)
  495. [22:42:16] <mkaply> But when they talk about microformats, they point to my work
  496. [22:42:35] <briansuda> right
  497. [22:43:03] <mkaply> hober: Incidentally, I can probably help you guys with some other bugs.
  498. [22:43:08] <mkaply> I sent the page along, but the bugs are still there
  499. [22:43:13] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator-testing/
  500. [22:43:42] <mkaply> I went through a lot of pain to figure out when google and yahoo want encodeURI vs. just escaping a few characters (sometimes encodeURI does too much)
  501. [22:43:56] <hober> Yeah, I remember that being painful
  502. [22:44:18] <hober> Hopefully we'll switch over to using GData for the 'add to google calendar' bit
  503. [22:44:36] <mkaply> Doesn't GData require you to get the login token though?
  504. [22:44:55] <hober> You jump through AuthSub hoops, sure.
  505. [22:45:28] <mkaply> I was hoping to avoid those hoops in Operator. :)
  506. [22:45:36] <mkaply> 30 boxes said "use our API"
  507. [22:45:38] <hober> *nod*
  508. [22:45:45] <mkaply> but then I have to put login features into Operator
  509. [22:45:52] <mkaply> As opposed to just letting 30boxes/google/yahoo handle it
  510. [22:45:59] <hober> We already have a GData client, that we use for Google Base, so it's not much of a step from there
  511. [22:47:13] <mkaply> I'll probably have to think about it at some point. So do/will people store their gmail user/pass in their eventful acccount?
  512. [22:47:44] <hober> No, AuthSub works similarly to OpenID
  513. [22:48:13] <hober> We end up with an opaque token that allows us to do certain things for the user for a certain amount of time, but at no time do you give us your password.
  514. [22:48:29] <mkaply> So how do you get them to login the first time?
  515. [22:48:46] <hober> http://code.google.com/apis/accounts/AuthForWebApps.html
  516. [22:49:11] <mkaply> ah
  517. [22:49:14] <mkaply> interesting
  518. [22:50:46] <mkaply> Ah. but it redirects to a page in your webapp. So it only works in a web app
  519. [22:50:57] <hober> right.
  520. [22:51:02] <hober> this is what you do otherwise: http://code.google.com/apis/accounts/AuthForInstalledApps.html
  521. [22:51:14] <hober> That's the form of auth we're using for our Google Base injection
  522. [22:51:58] <mkaply> but in the authforinstalled apps, you need user/pass. I'm caught somewhere in the middle :(
  523. [22:52:03] * tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  524. [22:52:20] <hober> Indeed you are
  525. [22:53:04] <bewest> why do people believe that microformat development methodology introduces a bottleneck to web development?!
  526. [22:53:55] <mkaply> They must think backwards
  527. [22:54:24] * tantek (n=tantek@m010f36d0.tmodns.net) Quit ()
  528. [22:54:53] <tommorris_> bewest: any specifics?
  529. [22:55:34] <bewest> the thread called Zen of Microformats
  530. [22:56:01] * h3h (n=h3h@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  531. [22:57:23] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-859778546d201213) Quit ("Leaving")
  532. [22:57:37] <kingryan> message from ian, right?
  533. [22:57:48] <bewest> despite having a process definition, people still percieve microformat methodology to be a prescriptive form of prediction
  534. [22:57:48] * tommorris_ has just started publishing restaurant reviews as hReview.
  535. [22:57:48] <bewest> yes
  536. [22:57:54] <bewest> this is a major failing in our communication
  537. [22:58:13] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit ("Leaving.")
  538. [22:58:28] <bewest> kingryan: but he's just the latest... it comes up all the time
  539. [22:58:58] <tommorris_> The microformats process is fine in that it solves 80% of the problem. There can be other processes to solve domain-specific problems (*cough*)
  540. [22:59:45] * briansuda agrees, it is MICRO
  541. [23:01:50] <kingryan> tommorris_: you're more than welcome to pursue those processes :D
  542. [23:02:14] <bewest> there are other processes to solve domain-agnostic problems as well
  543. [23:08:09] * tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  553. [23:52:33] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  554. [23:52:33] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  555. [23:54:59] * redmonk (n=steve@ip68-96-52-225.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit ("goodbye! *bamph*")

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