IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  5. [00:26:00] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=15166 * ManuSporny * (+170) Service publishing of video -
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  27. [02:34:21] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=15167 * ManuSporny * (-687) Addition and homogenization of individual video publishing data
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  69. [06:58:22] <mfbot> [[User:SamRose]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:SamRose&diff=0&oldid=15168 * ChristopheDucamp * (-66) Participants -
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  80. [08:29:25] <Azath0th> good morning
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  86. [10:33:21] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=15169 * FlorianBeer * (+219)
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  100. [12:24:25] <sf_ghoul> Hello, is there anyone about who can help me with xFolk? :)
  101. [12:24:44] <AGraf``> just ask
  102. [12:24:53] <AGraf``> if somebody can help, they will
  103. [12:25:23] <sf_ghoul> Thanks - can I nest "taggedlink" inside the "description
  104. [12:26:13] <sf_ghoul> And can I tag links without the actual tag being a link?
  105. [12:26:35] <sf_ghoul> Finally, I assume is is ok to mark up my internal links with xFolk
  106. [12:31:38] <sf_ghoul> Is theer any way to have more than one Geo on a page?
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  126. [14:08:21] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15170 * ScottReynen * (+0) Brian's straw format - decapitalized "straw" so it doesn't look like a formal name
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  128. [14:18:47] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=15171 * IngoRenner * (-119) TYPO3 -
  129. [14:21:38] <mfbot> [[last-modified-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=last-modified-examples&diff=0&oldid=15172 * IngoRenner * (+1) Typo3 -
  130. [14:23:04] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=15173 * IngoRenner * (-156) TYPO3 -
  131. [14:26:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=15174 * IngoRenner * (+174) New Implementations -
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  134. [14:34:32] <mfbot> [[Main Page-es]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-es&diff=0&oldid=15175 * AleydA * (-1)
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  147. [15:15:24] <McNulty> Afternoon
  148. [15:16:33] <McNulty> Is a building something that can be represented by an hCard? And if so, what do I use for its FN or ORG?
  149. [15:18:01] <McNulty> I develop a property listings DB and was going to add GEO, then thought 'why not hCard?'
  150. [15:18:16] <McNulty> But I'm not sure how to mark up a place.
  151. [15:20:29] <Prometheus^> hmm, pretty sure hcard is meant for just people and organizations
  152. [15:20:44] <McNulty> "hCard is a simple, open, distributed format for representing people, companies, organizations, and places"
  153. [15:20:51] <McNulty> first line of the wiki page ;-)
  154. [15:21:09] <McNulty> But I think those places tend to be things that have a 'name' separate to their physical address
  155. [15:21:18] <Prometheus^> oh, hmm :)
  156. [15:21:28] <Prometheus^> yeah, I guess
  157. [15:21:37] <AGraf``> what do you want to mark up?
  158. [15:21:39] <McNulty> Most of the time we use the first line of an address to refer to a proprety
  159. [15:21:43] <AGraf``> i mean... what kind of building?
  160. [15:21:48] <AGraf``> just a general... place?
  161. [15:21:49] <McNulty> office buildings normally
  162. [15:21:55] <Prometheus^> real estate type of thing?
  163. [15:21:58] <McNulty> It's offices to let/buy in general
  164. [15:21:58] <McNulty> yes
  165. [15:22:13] <Prometheus^> hmm
  166. [15:22:16] <Prometheus^> good question :)
  167. [15:22:21] <McNulty> I've got an agent on the page
  168. [15:22:31] <McNulty> which is a company with contact details etc., they'll be an hCard
  169. [15:22:57] <McNulty> for the location of the property I was going to throw in GEO but wanted to 'label' the GEO in case it was plotted on a map etc.
  170. [15:23:08] <McNulty> and thought 'hang on, it's an hCard'
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  175. [15:49:43] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  176. [15:51:38] <mkaply> If anyone wants to try Operator 0.7, it will be officiall on addons soon. Until then
  177. [15:51:38] <mkaply> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106?status=1
  178. [15:53:06] <Azath0th> installed it a few hours ago ;)
  179. [15:53:29] <Azath0th> but it didn't import the date on events from last.fm correctly into iCal :(
  180. [15:53:43] <Azath0th> gets always put on today and not the date in the page
  181. [15:54:04] <AGraf``> i always wondered... is it possible to define custom actions?
  182. [15:54:14] <mkaply> AGraf``: absolutely.
  183. [15:54:21] <AGraf``> nice... how?
  184. [15:54:23] <Azath0th> that's what i did for iCal
  185. [15:54:27] <mkaply> Azath0th: let me look at that. Pagh
  186. [15:54:30] <Azath0th> just the export action
  187. [15:54:34] <Azath0th> ok
  188. [15:54:34] <mkaply> AGraf``: well, you can do it the old way.
  189. [15:54:38] <mkaply> which is documented here:
  190. [15:54:57] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2006/12/23/adding-new-microformats-to-operator/
  191. [15:54:59] <mkaply> which I still support.
  192. [15:55:01] <Azath0th> was that one: http://www.last.fm/event/198326
  193. [15:55:04] <mkaply> Or you can take a look at
  194. [15:55:15] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/bluetooth.js
  195. [15:55:20] <AGraf``> !
  196. [15:55:22] <AGraf``> nice
  197. [15:55:26] <mkaply> to see my new actions. Although those are in process
  198. [15:55:30] <mkaply> so they might change
  199. [15:55:31] <AGraf``> ill check that out
  200. [15:55:49] <mkaply> Our plan is to move to an action model that is less microformat aware and more data aware
  201. [15:56:01] <mkaply> Azath0th: what did you have to change about the export?
  202. [15:56:08] <AGraf``> thats great
  203. [15:56:25] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  204. [15:56:56] <mkaply> hmm
  205. [15:57:07] <Azath0th> mkaply: i made an action that's called "Export to iCal" for "hCalendar" with the handler "Export Event"
  206. [15:57:26] <Azath0th> that opened it directly in iCal and let me choose the calendar i want to import into
  207. [15:57:33] <Azath0th> but it always had the wrong day
  208. [15:57:43] <mkaply> Azath0th: is it a day early?
  209. [15:57:48] <mkaply> no, that wouldn't make sense.
  210. [15:57:48] <mkaply> hmm
  211. [15:57:55] * mkaply goes to investigate
  212. [15:58:07] <Azath0th> the source code seems correct, after a quick look through
  213. [15:58:29] <mkaply> The Z is throwing things off for google/yahoo
  214. [15:59:07] <Azath0th> they don't like Zulu?
  215. [15:59:50] <mkaply> nope. They don't handle offsets well at all
  216. [16:00:26] <Azath0th> yea, well i don't use it anyway. i just wanted to have a one click solution for iChat ;)
  217. [16:00:38] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@c703-fwngw.uibk.ac.at) Quit ("Quit")
  218. [16:00:41] <Azath0th> iCal*
  219. [16:02:06] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
  220. [16:02:09] <mkaply> ah. Got the google problem. dates have to be normalized with 00 on the end. argh
  221. [16:02:24] <mkaply> as in seconds
  222. [16:03:04] <mkaply> define "wrong day" in ical?
  223. [16:03:12] <Azath0th> it put it on today
  224. [16:03:21] <Azath0th> as opposed to the day that was marked up in the event
  225. [16:03:40] <Azath0th> no matter which event i imported it always ended up on 3rd of April 2007
  226. [16:04:23] <mkaply> hmm. That's very odd.
  227. [16:04:27] <mkaply> the vcard looks like this
  228. [16:04:47] <mkaply> DTSTART;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20070703T1134Z
  229. [16:05:06] <mkaply> My Mac is at home, so I can't check
  230. [16:05:58] <Azath0th> is there a way to convert it to a normal file, instead of it popping up in iCal imideately?
  231. [16:06:38] <mkaply> Azath0th: Sure. Go to options, switch to microformats mode and turn debug on.
  232. [16:06:47] <Azath0th> ok
  233. [16:06:48] <Azath0th> thx
  234. [16:06:51] <mkaply> Then when you select the debug action, one of the tabs will have the entire vcard in it
  235. [16:07:16] <mkaply> The reason I can't allow you to save the file on Mac (I do on Windows) is because of a Firefox bug where the vcard gets opened in the browser
  236. [16:07:55] <Azath0th> ah, ok with debug i can see the error now
  237. [16:08:26] <Azath0th> but i think you should alter the way your addon handles the date then, because the date format on the site is a valid ISO8601 date
  238. [16:08:42] <Azath0th> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
  239. [16:08:51] <Azath0th> it's ok to leave out the seconds
  240. [16:09:30] * Charl (n=Charl@spotter.nmmu.ac.za) Quit ()
  241. [16:09:58] <mkaply> Azath0th: don't fix the page! :)
  242. [16:10:20] <mkaply> Azath0th: you are correct. I need to figure out what services (like google) need the seconds and add it in
  243. [16:10:24] <Azath0th> it's not my page ;)
  244. [16:10:29] <mkaply> I also need to make timezones work.
  245. [16:10:44] <mkaply> so what time is that event in local time?
  246. [16:11:02] <mkaply> So when I see a Z, I should add the event in local time.
  247. [16:11:06] <mkaply> (as in local to the user)
  248. [16:11:11] <Azath0th> hmm, yea i guess its local to the user
  249. [16:11:18] <Azath0th> because users will put in all the information
  250. [16:11:25] <Azath0th> they wont bother converting it to UTC
  251. [16:11:30] <mkaply> that will be confusing. But calendars in dfiferent timezones are always confusing
  252. [16:11:40] <Azath0th> that's right
  253. [16:11:49] <Azath0th> we need a common date/time all across the world ;)
  254. [16:12:05] <mkaply> I wish Javascript had native support for ISO dates. It would help immensely
  255. [16:12:18] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  256. [16:12:25] <mkaply> come to think of it, I wish Javascript had real support for any dates
  257. [16:13:11] <mkaply> Azath0th: so to be clear, the bugs are 1. Some services expect seconds - I should add it on if necessary. 2. I should handle Zulu time
  258. [16:13:22] <mkaply> Azath0th: and you have found ical expects seconds?
  259. [16:13:53] <Azath0th> i think iCal was just confused because of the excess ":" in the datetime
  260. [16:14:05] <Azath0th> that's why it tried to gracefully put it on today
  261. [16:14:23] <mkaply> DTSTART;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20070703T1134
  262. [16:14:28] <mkaply> that's correct, right?
  263. [16:14:57] <Azath0th> looks good :)
  264. [16:15:22] <mkaply> but outlook express doesn't like that either. Interesting
  265. [16:16:11] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.2.134.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  266. [16:16:30] * danja (n=danja@host72-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  267. [16:17:36] <kwijibo> is it proper to call hAtom a microformat, since it's just a draft?
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  270. [16:23:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  271. [16:24:05] <mkaply> my converter to JS date from iso8601 isn't handling that. ARgh
  272. [16:24:10] <mkaply> var dateArray = string.match(/(\d\d\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:[T ](\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?:\.(\d+))?)?)?(?:Z|(?:([-+])(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d))?)?)?)?)?)?/);
  273. [16:24:30] <mkaply> the Z isn't being found by that regexp
  274. [16:26:18] * mkaply hates regexp
  275. [16:26:53] * Azath0th 2
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  301. [18:03:55] <mkaply> wow. the dojo iso8601 code doesn't work at all
  302. [18:04:34] <kingryan> really?
  303. [18:04:50] * kingryan is not surprised. everyone gets dates wrong in some way.
  304. [18:05:18] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  305. [18:07:29] <kingryan> does anyone here have experience with multipart mime responses over HTTP?
  306. [18:09:07] <Azath0th> no, sorry
  307. [18:15:55] <KevinMarks> dates are hard
  308. [18:16:40] <KevinMarks> markp's date parsing stuff in feedparser is amazing
  309. [18:17:11] * thecrypto (n=thecrypt@8.7.49.232) Quit ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5")
  310. [18:18:15] <KevinMarks> http://feedparser.org/tests/wellformed/date/
  311. [18:18:19] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  312. [18:20:39] <KevinMarks> if you think 8601 is bad, try RFC822
  313. [18:20:41] <bewest> I like php's strptime()
  314. [18:22:37] <KevinMarks> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/06/21/history_of_rss_date_formats
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  321. [18:44:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15176 * AndyMabbett * (+393) GPX
  322. [18:47:00] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  323. [18:47:04] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15177 * AndyMabbett * (-8923) mocving geo-related issues to own page (this page being overly long)
  324. [18:47:51] <mkaply> KevinMarks: I just don't understand why the javascript date/time processing is so brain dead
  325. [18:49:07] <KevinMarks> I haven't tried it in JS - are you hitting particular hurdles?
  326. [18:49:21] <KevinMarks> those testcases of Mark's are well worth a look
  327. [18:49:45] <mfbot> [[geo-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15178 * AndyMabbett * (+9100) moved
  328. [18:50:16] <mfbot> [[geo-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=15179 * AndyMabbett * (-5) related pages - fix
  329. [18:51:37] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=15180 * AndyMabbett * (+15) brainstorming
  330. [18:52:18] <mfbot> [[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=15181 * AndyMabbett * (+51) Geo brainstorming
  331. [18:53:19] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-related-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=15182 * AndyMabbett * (+73) explain
  332. [18:55:03] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  333. [18:58:06] <mkaply> KevinMarks: my primary issue with javascript is that a date doesn't exist without time associated with it. And that there's no way to do "custom" locale formatting
  334. [18:58:21] <mkaply> right now I'm just trying to get my regex perfect so it can parse all ISO dates :)
  335. [19:06:34] <KevinMarks> all ISO, or all W3CDTF ?
  336. [19:17:53] <mkaply> KevinMarks: pretty much anything you see in microformats
  337. [19:17:58] <mkaply> The one that's throwing me off now is
  338. [19:18:18] <mkaply> 20070703T1134Z
  339. [19:18:24] <mkaply> No seconds followed by a Z
  340. [19:18:36] <mkaply> For some reason
  341. [19:18:36] <mkaply> (/(\d\d\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:[T ](\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?:\.(\d+))?)?)?(?:Z|(?:([-+])(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d))?)?)?)?)?)?/)
  342. [19:18:42] <mkaply> isn't handling that.
  343. [19:21:28] <mkaply> duh. they have?: before the Z
  344. [19:23:16] <mkaply> nope, that isn't it
  345. [19:24:12] * danja (n=danja@host72-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  346. [19:30:31] * KevinMarks shudders at that regex
  347. [19:36:45] <mkaply> KevinMarks: yeah, it's pretty ugly. I went and looked at dojo's - theirs is much simpler - but doesn't work at all :)
  348. [19:54:31] * danja (n=danja@host72-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
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  355. [20:43:50] <mkaply> some help before my head explodes. If I see a date the has a Z indicating it is GMT, then I query the system and my tzoffset is 600 meaning that GMT is 5 hours ahead of me, then if I were to express that same data as an offset instead of Z, would it be -05:00 or +05:00
  356. [20:46:31] * izo (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  357. [20:48:42] <KevinMarks> no, Z is always +00:00
  358. [20:49:03] <KevinMarks> your offset is -05:00
  359. [20:50:52] <mkaply> KevinMarks: I'm basically trying to convert a Z representation to that same date as expressed as a TZ Offset so that I can find out what it would be in local time
  360. [20:51:01] <mkaply> sine javascript doesn't support tz offsets implicitly
  361. [20:51:23] <KevinMarks> Z is always 00:00 from UTC
  362. [20:51:42] <KevinMarks> I don't know how js handles local TZ
  363. [20:51:50] <mkaply> ok.
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  374. [21:34:50] <mkaply> When Operator encounters a TZ offset or a GMT time, is it useful to keep that offset around or is it ok for Operator to always "normalize" the time...
  375. [21:35:17] <mkaply> Actually, I think I know the answer. Yahoo accepts the offset, so if a service accepts it, I should pass it (not my normalized time)
  376. [21:40:12] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
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  380. [22:01:13] <KevinMarks> right
  381. [22:01:23] <KevinMarks> though Google Calendar demands zulu
  382. [22:01:42] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
  383. [22:02:58] <mkaply> I thought it did everything in local time?
  384. [22:03:13] <mkaply> so when I send dates to google calendar, I should be sending zulu?
  385. [22:03:35] <KevinMarks> hm I thought so- the URL format they wanted was a very narrow version
  386. [22:04:29] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  387. [22:04:35] <mkaply> it is narrow, but I thought it assumed local time.
  388. [22:05:28] <mkaply> ok. nothing is getting added to my calendar right now. weird
  389. [22:05:44] <mkaply> there it is. local time.
  390. [22:06:03] <mkaply> http://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&text=Refresh+Austin+April+Meeting&details=Topic%3A+SXSW+Recap%0D%0A%0D%0AFor+those+unable+to+attend+SXSW%2C+here%27s+a+chance+to+hear+what+was+good.+For+those+who+were+there%2C+here%27s+a+chance+to+hear+about+panels+you+may+have+missed.%0D%0A%0D%0AAnyone+who+went+to+SXSW+is+encouraged+to+jump+into+this+one%21+The+format+is+straightforward%2C+each+person+will+answer%3A%0D%0A1.+What+were
  391. [22:06:03] <mkaply> +your+three+favorite+panels+and+why%3F%0D%0A2.+What+is+one+thing+that+you+took+from+SXSW+and+implemented%3F&sprop=upcoming.org/event/167983/&sprop=name:Upcoming.org&dates=20070410T190000/20070410T190000&location=Texpresso%2C+2700+W+Anderson+Ln+Austin%2C+Texas+78757
  392. [22:06:05] <mkaply> oops
  393. [22:06:25] <mkaply> google calendar sees that as 7:00 PM in whatever timezone you set in Google Calendar
  394. [22:06:32] <mkaply> and it doesn't accept Z or timezone offsets
  395. [22:07:08] <mkaply> woah. I spoke way too soon. It accept Z but not timezone offsets. That's good to know
  396. [22:07:47] * mkaply runs now
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  413. [23:26:58] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ()
  414. [23:30:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  415. [23:31:03] * htmlr (n=cjb@203-206-237-84.dyn.iinet.net.au) has left #microformats
  416. [23:40:54] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) has joined #microformats
  417. [23:44:24] * RCanine (n=ryan@c-68-42-71-188.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  418. [23:46:36] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=15183 * RCanine * (+41)
  419. [23:47:06] <RCanine> Wow...that was fun.
  420. [23:49:26] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  421. [23:51:01] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  422. [23:51:18] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  423. [23:58:27] <kingryan> RCanine: welcome :D

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.