IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:24] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) Quit ()
  2. [00:02:08] <KevinMarks> what microformats make sense to embed in other people's comments?
  3. [00:03:46] <hober> do you mean, "when leaving a blog comment, what µfs should we consider using in the body of the comment"?
  4. [00:04:19] <KevinMarks> yes
  5. [00:04:59] <KevinMarks> ie what ones can I justifiably prevent from bveing filtered out, and which should be
  6. [00:05:15] <KevinMarks> if I insert XFN in someone else's blog, that is a bit naughty
  7. [00:05:34] <KevinMarks> but I can see an hCard or hCalender being legit
  8. [00:06:35] <kingryan> or rel-tag
  9. [00:06:42] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=15229 * DavidCary * (+1329) multiple representations of the same location
  10. [00:06:47] <KevinMarks> I was having this discussion with Artur at etech
  11. [00:07:57] <KevinMarks> rel-tag in the context of an hReview is borderline
  12. [00:11:02] <pnhChris> hreview in comment i can see legit cases for.. lots of 'i'm looking for XYZ' or 'what do you think of ABC' requests get blogged
  13. [00:11:03] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("http://gmachina.com - gaming feeds in bulk")
  14. [00:17:50] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  15. [00:31:52] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  16. [00:32:32] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  17. [00:34:34] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  18. [00:38:54] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
  19. [00:44:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=15230 * DavidCary * (+766) How exactly is it "accessibility-damaging"?
  20. [00:50:46] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  21. [01:27:34] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  22. [02:02:45] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  23. [02:19:42] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  24. [02:23:58] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) has joined #microformats
  25. [02:29:47] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) Quit ()
  26. [02:49:47] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  27. [04:19:56] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  28. [04:20:45] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Client Quit)
  29. [04:25:34] * SunWuKung (n=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  30. [04:26:21] * SunWuKung (n=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) Quit ("--out")
  31. [04:30:52] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  32. [04:35:19] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=15231 * SteveRogers * (+181) New Implementations -
  33. [04:38:26] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  34. [04:59:40] * bear42 (n=bear@pool-72-78-18-22.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  35. [04:59:52] * bear (n=bear@pool-72-78-254-169.phlapa.east.verizon.net) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  36. [05:00:02] * bear42 is now known as bear
  37. [05:56:19] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  38. [06:13:07] * SunWuKung (i=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  39. [06:24:02] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  40. [06:29:32] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  41. [06:33:26] * SunWuKung (i=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) Quit ("--out")
  42. [06:38:58] * SunWuKung (n=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  43. [06:57:06] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  44. [07:07:24] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  45. [07:45:22] * kwijibo_ (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  46. [07:58:19] * Azath0th (n=beerf@h081217032068.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) has joined #microformats
  47. [08:05:06] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  48. [08:05:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  49. [08:05:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  50. [08:19:07] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  51. [08:27:34] <kwijibo> What do you call a convention for marking up a specific type of information in html, when that convention is not a µf (ie: it isn't a µf spec or draft, and hasn't been through the process)?
  52. [08:32:27] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  53. [08:32:48] * kwijibo_ (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  54. [08:35:22] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  55. [08:36:47] <Azath0th> well then it isn't a convention i guess
  56. [08:36:52] <Azath0th> just random markup
  57. [08:39:03] <vant> some people think that is a "microformat" even it doesn't follow the process
  58. [08:39:24] <kwijibo> well, not necessarily random
  59. [08:39:33] <vant> maybe we should register microformats as a trademark :p
  60. [08:39:57] <kwijibo> you don't want to call it a µf because it hasn't followed the process, but it surely deserves some kind of name?
  61. [08:40:02] <Azath0th> kwijibo: can you give an exampe for "specific type of information"?
  62. [08:40:23] <Azath0th> well if it can be a microformat, follow the process and propose a new one
  63. [08:40:23] <kwijibo> hmm - well, take hBIB I suppose
  64. [08:40:31] <Azath0th> ?
  65. [08:40:47] <kwijibo> it's not been through the process (yet?)
  66. [08:41:00] <Azath0th> then it's a draft, no?
  67. [08:41:00] <kwijibo> but it is well specified
  68. [08:41:05] <Azath0th> ah ok
  69. [08:41:18] <Azath0th> well "soon-to-be-microformat" :)
  70. [08:41:20] <kwijibo> hBIB is a bad example actually
  71. [08:41:48] <kwijibo> because they clearly intended it to be µf, even if they haven't really respected the process part
  72. [08:41:48] <vant> preprocessed microformat?
  73. [08:42:17] <Azath0th> that would imply that it's already processed
  74. [08:42:22] <Azath0th> which it isn't
  75. [08:42:34] <kwijibo> but say I have a convention for marking up cooking recipes
  76. [08:43:01] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  77. [08:43:01] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  78. [08:43:28] <kwijibo> and maybe even an XSLT for transforming it into the native format of some software that stores recipes
  79. [08:43:47] <kwijibo> I don't call it a microformat, or intend it to be one
  80. [08:44:06] <kwijibo> but isn't it a little more than just 'semantic html'?
  81. [08:45:02] <Azath0th> hmm, as long as it's in XHTML it is just that, once converted you can name it whatever you want
  82. [08:45:06] <Azath0th> that's my understanding
  83. [08:45:26] <kwijibo> (to me semantic html is a little broad, encompassing everything from correct use of tags, up to eRDF)
  84. [08:47:08] <Azath0th> well, but i guess there is no more specific term
  85. [08:47:13] <Azath0th> at least i don't know one
  86. [08:47:20] <kwijibo> that's a shame
  87. [08:47:26] <Azath0th> let's invent one :)
  88. [08:48:02] <kwijibo> :)
  89. [08:48:27] <Azath0th> a kwijiboformat maybe?
  90. [08:48:37] <Azath0th> at least we could be sure the domains still free ;)
  91. [08:48:49] <kwijibo> well, should it be a term for any convention, any convention that isn't a µf, or any convention with a specific transformation scenario?
  92. [08:49:10] <kwijibo> or any convention with a specific transformation scenario that isn't a microformat?
  93. [08:49:29] <kwijibo> confusing
  94. [08:49:48] <Azath0th> my head hurts now *g*
  95. [08:53:37] * kwijibo checks for www.kwijiboformat.com
  96. [08:55:52] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  97. [08:56:10] <Azath0th> btw. i'd take the last one "any convention with a specific transformation scenario that isn't a microformat"
  98. [08:56:46] <kwijibo> fair enough
  99. [08:57:45] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  100. [08:57:50] <Azath0th> always good to approach one specific problem as microformats teach us ;)
  101. [08:58:49] <kwijibo> although it'd also be nice to be able to distinguish between µf with a specific transformation (hATom->Atom, hCard->vCard, hCal->iCal), and those that just are what they are
  102. [09:00:01] <kwijibo> they don't need to be sexy or catchy terms, just descriptive: html subformat?
  103. [09:00:18] <kwijibo> nah, that's shit
  104. [09:00:40] <Azath0th> hmm, well isn't that the thing that distinguishes compound and elemental microformats?
  105. [09:00:48] <Azath0th> or one of the things
  106. [09:01:04] <Azath0th> http://microformats.org/wiki/compound-microformat
  107. [09:02:02] <kwijibo> nah, it just says "often is"
  108. [09:02:42] <kwijibo> hReview is there, and that doesn't have a transformation scenario does it?
  109. [09:03:11] <Azath0th> true, but it could easily be converted in a different format
  110. [09:03:36] <Azath0th> same as your "recipe format"
  111. [09:03:48] <kwijibo> yeah, but what, and would it be any more useful in that format?
  112. [09:04:38] <Azath0th> i can't answer that
  113. [09:04:41] <Azath0th> maybe *g*
  114. [09:04:43] <kwijibo> i suppose a better example than the recipe one, would be a format for representing iTunes playlists or something
  115. [09:05:12] <Azath0th> there are already XSLTs that transform the iTunes library xml file, aren't there?
  116. [09:05:28] <kwijibo> probably from xml->html
  117. [09:05:36] <Azath0th> and the other way round wouldn't make much sense
  118. [09:05:47] <Azath0th> what good is a library file without the music files
  119. [09:06:00] <Azath0th> so why would i want to convert a html listing into a xml
  120. [09:06:26] <kwijibo> hmm, maybe another bad example - can you have radio stations in a playlist?
  121. [09:06:41] <Azath0th> yea, could be possible
  122. [09:06:52] <Azath0th> can't say anything against that exampe :)
  123. [09:07:04] <kwijibo> or what about bookmarks?
  124. [09:07:15] <Azath0th> XOXO
  125. [09:08:10] <kwijibo> yeah but if you mark it up with xoxo, you can't just straight away import the bookmarks
  126. [09:08:46] <Azath0th> but since XOXO is it's own proper XML file format you can easily write converters
  127. [09:08:52] <Azath0th> as FF add-in for example
  128. [09:08:52] <kwijibo> whereas, perversely, if you use the nasty loose html that is generated by the browser, you can
  129. [09:10:03] <kwijibo> ok, I think I've got a good example - a way of writing html so it can be transformed to docbook
  130. [09:10:38] <Azath0th> use proper XHTML and XSLT :)
  131. [09:11:20] <kwijibo> yes, that's what you would do, but you'd need to have conventions and semantic hooks for the xslt to use
  132. [09:11:42] <kwijibo> you wouldn't be able to just transform /any/ old html to docbook
  133. [09:11:42] <Azath0th> true
  134. [09:14:56] <kwijibo> POsH: Plain Old semantic HTML :)
  135. [09:15:26] <Azath0th> yea
  136. [09:15:28] <Azath0th> good one :)
  137. [09:15:50] <kwijibo> shame about the acronym, but it conveys the sense well
  138. [09:15:59] <Azath0th> true
  139. [09:17:31] <kwijibo> ie: no general purpose standard intended - just a way of writing semantic html that hasa specific meaning in a specific circumstance
  140. [09:18:50] <Azath0th> well but then it could be made into a microformat, no?
  141. [09:19:33] <kwijibo> no, because it isn't general purpose - it might be really obscure
  142. [09:20:00] <kwijibo> i mean, it might not be, it might also be a really good contender for the process
  143. [09:20:41] <kwijibo> so then it could become a microformat
  144. [09:20:57] <kwijibo> but until then, it's just plain old semantic html
  145. [09:21:18] <Azath0th> yea, but that's was true for all the other microformats as well
  146. [09:21:23] <Azath0th> XFN, rel-tag etc.
  147. [09:21:47] <kwijibo> that's not really a problem
  148. [09:22:30] <Azath0th> well, but why do you need a name for it then?
  149. [09:22:50] <Azath0th> it's semantic XHTML until it gets standardised and widely adopted, then it's a microformat
  150. [09:24:04] <kwijibo> because semantic XHTML can mean anything from just using the elements and attributes correctly, to microformats, to RDFa
  151. [09:24:16] <Azath0th> yes
  152. [09:24:34] <Azath0th> ok, gotta go now. gotta work on my thesis (on microformats)
  153. [09:25:50] <kwijibo> whereas I think POsH suggests more than just the semantics/structure inherent in xhtml, but not (yet, perhaps) a µf
  154. [09:28:46] <kwijibo> just like POX indicates XML that structures and describes its data, but isn't really a 'standard' itself
  155. [09:32:43] * AGraf`` (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
  156. [09:33:14] * Azath0th (n=beerf@h081217032068.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) Quit ("...drowning")
  157. [09:39:32] <mfbot> [[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=15232 * AndyMabbett * (+191) Examples in the wild -
  158. [09:40:08] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=15233 * AndyMabbett * (+33) Examples in the wild - OpenStreetMap
  159. [09:43:24] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=15234 * AndyMabbett * (+267) Why linking to same page is harmful
  160. [09:43:55] <mfbot> [[User talk:DavidCary]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DavidCary * AndyMabbett * (+70) Welcome!
  161. [09:44:26] <mfbot> [[User talk:DavidCary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DavidCary&diff=0&oldid=15235 * AndyMabbett * (+0)
  162. [10:09:55] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
  163. [10:40:04] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@host41-35-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ("Leaving.")
  164. [10:43:29] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@host41-35-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  165. [11:05:45] <mfbot> [[glossary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=glossary&diff=0&oldid=15236 * AndyMabbett * (+59) POSH
  166. [11:24:20] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #microformats
  167. [11:24:20] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  168. [12:17:27] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  169. [12:17:41] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  170. [12:17:52] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  171. [12:18:02] * shawn_ (n=shawn@netblock-68-183-69-197.dslextreme.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  172. [12:18:03] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  173. [12:18:14] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  174. [12:28:09] * kwijibo_ (n=kwijibo@87.112.76.168.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  175. [12:28:25] <kwijibo_> is the programmer of operator in here?
  176. [12:28:29] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  177. [12:28:29] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  178. [12:29:11] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  179. [12:38:26] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aay032.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  180. [12:43:17] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ()
  181. [12:43:39] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.75.11.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  182. [12:47:17] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  183. [12:47:17] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  184. [12:47:22] * Azath0th (n=beerf@h081217032068.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) has joined #microformats
  185. [12:51:25] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  186. [13:07:40] * Charl (n=charlvn@c1-244-13.wblv.isadsl.co.za) has joined #microformats
  187. [13:07:40] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  188. [13:08:08] * kwijibo_ (n=kwijibo@87.112.76.168.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has left #microformats
  189. [13:36:54] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  190. [13:36:54] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  191. [13:55:51] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  192. [13:55:51] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  193. [14:01:23] <mfbot> [[hcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=15237 * ChristopheDucamp * (+659)
  194. [14:07:07] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  195. [14:07:20] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  196. [14:07:47] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  197. [14:07:56] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  198. [14:08:04] * mcknut (n=john@65.110.60.110) Quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  199. [14:08:04] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) Quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  200. [14:08:04] * ianloic (n=ian@bat.yakk.net) Quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  201. [14:08:32] * mcknut (n=john@65.110.60.110) has joined #microformats
  202. [14:08:32] * termie (i=andy@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/termie) has joined #microformats
  203. [14:08:32] * ianloic (n=ian@bat.yakk.net) has joined #microformats
  204. [14:21:37] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  205. [14:21:37] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  206. [14:49:48] * adactio (n=jeremy@mail.newhaven-agency.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  207. [14:49:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o adactio
  208. [14:52:01] * Charl (n=charlvn@c1-244-13.wblv.isadsl.co.za) Quit ("Leaving")
  209. [14:53:26] <mfbot> [[User:CapWord]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:CapWord * CapWord * (+427) Creation
  210. [14:54:37] <adactio> I'm at Refresh Edinburgh where Brian Suda is about to address the room and take questions about microformats.
  211. [14:54:55] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  212. [14:55:39] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  213. [15:12:57] * tantek is really liking POSH (Plain Old Semantic HTML)
  214. [15:14:38] <hober> :)
  215. [15:16:24] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  216. [15:21:39] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has left #microformats
  217. [15:25:41] <adactio> POSH sounds like a great term to me.
  218. [15:32:04] <AGraf``> posh sounds great indeed
  219. [15:44:07] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  220. [15:44:07] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  221. [15:52:49] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  222. [15:58:16] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("http://davecardwell.co.uk/")
  223. [16:02:41] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  224. [16:04:30] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  225. [16:04:30] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  226. [16:07:29] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  227. [16:20:40] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.76.168.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  228. [16:21:00] * SunWuKung (n=SunWuKun@S0106000d93cb5211.vc.shawcable.net) Quit ("--out")
  229. [16:22:47] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) has joined #microformats
  230. [16:22:48] <jibot> tylerr is Tyler Roehmholdt and involves himself in the HTML WG and WaSP-related advocacy.
  231. [16:24:34] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  232. [16:36:31] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  233. [16:40:20] * adactio (n=jeremy@mail.newhaven-agency.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. [16:47:48] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  235. [16:59:11] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  236. [16:59:11] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  237. [17:01:19] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  238. [17:05:38] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7dbcf5d45260e4ad) has joined #microformats
  239. [17:06:17] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ()
  240. [17:09:08] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  241. [17:09:08] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  242. [17:09:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  243. [17:29:43] <mkaply> so should I force \r\n in all my exported vcard? Or only when sending them to bluetooth?
  244. [17:29:56] <kwijibo> is there such a thing as an hCal validator?
  245. [17:35:35] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  246. [17:35:36] * pnhChris is still curious how a microformat 'validator' could catch syntax errors [e.g. a typo in a non-reqiured classname causing data loss]
  247. [17:35:47] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  248. [17:35:59] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  249. [17:35:59] <pnhChris> someone figures that out let me know ;)
  250. [17:36:39] * defunkt (n=cowboy@cn-sfo1-pix-natout.cnet.com) has joined #microformats
  251. [17:38:04] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  252. [17:41:04] * csarven (n=nevrasc@dhcp-0-18-f8-35-d5-97.cpe.quickclic.net) has joined #microformats
  253. [17:41:04] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  254. [17:45:00] <kwijibo> pnhChris: you probably wouldn't be able to show an error - but a validator could show the parsed output, so you could see that something wasn't right
  255. [17:45:25] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit ()
  256. [17:45:32] <Azath0th> but then i don't need a validator at all
  257. [17:45:42] <kwijibo> what about dates
  258. [17:45:57] <kwijibo> and required classnames
  259. [17:46:26] * Azath0th (n=beerf@h081217032068.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) Quit ("...drowning")
  260. [17:46:26] <kwijibo> a validator could at the very least do that
  261. [17:54:59] <pnhChris> i'm not saying some form of service isn't useful by any means
  262. [17:55:59] <kwijibo> so what do you typically do to make sure your microformat can be interpreted correctly by tools?
  263. [17:57:26] <pnhChris> use the tools, and if there are cases that seem to have incorrect output follow them up to see if its my fault or tools fault...
  264. [18:00:24] <kwijibo> what if there's only one tool?
  265. [18:02:13] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  266. [18:02:15] <pnhChris> not saying some tool intended for checking code [rather then consuming] wouldn't be useful... even if its a debug mode for current tools to warn when it uses a fallback option or something like that.. just that validity seems to be a tough concept to nail down
  267. [18:03:55] * kwijibo didn't mean that to sound quite so argumentative
  268. [18:04:01] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #microformats
  269. [18:04:01] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  270. [18:04:31] <kwijibo> so what is it that makes it so hard to validate µf?
  271. [18:05:11] <pnhChris> ... i've also in the past used transforms + atom validator for testing hatom work
  272. [18:06:14] <pnhChris> but again, needs as much scrutiny on the transformation tool as it does your code as well as the content of the output to know where the issues lie
  273. [18:06:54] <kwijibo> I think that's where µf are most useful - where there is a clear, existing, output format that already has its own tools and validators
  274. [18:09:58] <pnhChris> yes and no... it was useful, but again, as much for testing the transform tool as well as the hatom spec as it was to validate my own code
  275. [18:11:33] <pnhChris> lets turn it on its side a bit.. what errors would you expect a validator to catch that wouldn't be caught by examining the output content of a tool? and what microformats would you be looking to 'validate'
  276. [18:12:17] <pnhChris> to me i see some obvious cases ... required fields missing being the biggest.. but beyond that it seems touchy
  277. [18:13:14] <kwijibo> anything where the value has to be a specific format
  278. [18:13:34] <kwijibo> like time, date, codes
  279. [18:14:27] <kwijibo> I suppose it doesn't need to be draconian to be useful
  280. [18:16:28] <pnhChris> [and i'm not trying to be confrontational either.. just getting pressing to get specific ideas on the record]
  281. [18:19:20] <kwijibo> i think (and I don't have any experience writing validators) I would expect it to look for the hCal, and if it can't find it, suggest common mistakes I might have made
  282. [18:19:49] <kwijibo> if it finds an hCal event, check it has the required fields
  283. [18:20:21] <kwijibo> then check all the values of all the properties conform to the expected format
  284. [18:20:44] <pnhChris> for a good portion of ufs validataion is near impossible... is rel="tagf" an invalid tag or something else... though a check of the url in rel="tag" cases would be useful... similarly for XFN ... rel="me friend" might be wrong, but there aren't many other things you could check for... and much more would be found in data not being what you expected after parsing [rel="em" .. can't catch that in validation cause rel could be any
  285. [18:23:11] <kwijibo> i think you would have to assume that tagf wasn't a microformat (even if it was a typo)
  286. [18:23:30] <kwijibo> though a validator could suggest checking for mistyped classnames
  287. [18:24:15] <pnhChris> you wouldn't even pick it up.. unless you had a massive set of regexes or simply listed all the rel values that weren't tags.. which seems a bit silly
  288. [18:24:31] <pnhChris> even more so with class names
  289. [18:24:54] <kwijibo> no you wouldn't have the validator look for misspellings
  290. [18:25:20] <kwijibo> but if you are asking it to validate this html for rel-tag
  291. [18:25:24] <pnhChris> also.. check the wiki.. there are a few linters and such out there if you're looking for tools besides, say, operator
  292. [18:25:41] <pnhChris> http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/rel-lint/ for example
  293. [18:25:58] <pnhChris> [found via http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=validation&go=Go ]
  294. [18:26:21] <pnhChris> i've got to run.. please keep thinking.. and find a good spot on the wiki to dump the thoughts
  295. [18:26:29] <kwijibo> ... then it can tell you how many it found,
  296. [18:31:17] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7dbcf5d45260e4ad) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  297. [18:38:19] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) has joined #microformats
  298. [18:51:08] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78 [Firefox 1.5.0.10/0000000000]")
  299. [18:57:05] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  300. [18:57:26] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ()
  301. [19:08:02] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ce946f5248a5383b) has joined #microformats
  302. [19:23:46] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  303. [19:23:46] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  304. [19:36:58] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #microformats
  305. [19:36:58] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  306. [19:41:01] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ce946f5248a5383b) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  307. [19:45:20] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has left #microformats
  308. [19:45:27] * bergie (n=bergie@a91-153-153-104.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit ()
  309. [19:48:05] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  310. [19:48:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  311. [19:48:05] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  312. [20:02:00] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  313. [20:03:27] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@ip-64-139-53-101.sjc.megapath.net) has joined #microformats
  314. [20:15:06] * kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.112.76.168.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ()
  315. [20:18:48] * bear42 (n=bear@pool-72-78-12-114.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  316. [20:19:00] * bear (n=bear@pool-72-78-18-22.phlapa.east.verizon.net) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  317. [20:19:08] * bear42 is now known as bear
  318. [20:22:21] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("http://davecardwell.co.uk/")
  319. [20:41:33] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181017015.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  320. [20:41:33] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  321. [20:46:50] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  322. [20:47:03] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) Quit ()
  323. [20:50:17] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8fcb896a90a1cb6e) has joined #microformats
  324. [20:52:07] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  325. [20:57:53] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable211.64-70-69.static.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  326. [20:58:45] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Aay032.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  327. [21:02:04] * bear42 (n=bear@pool-72-78-161-51.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  328. [21:02:32] * bear (n=bear@pool-72-78-12-114.phlapa.east.verizon.net) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  329. [21:02:40] * bear42 is now known as bear
  330. [21:09:19] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable211.64-70-69.static.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  331. [21:20:54] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  332. [21:21:26] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  333. [21:21:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  334. [21:22:47] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  335. [21:23:06] * punter (n=punter@ipa111.6.91.tellas.gr) has joined #microformats
  336. [21:23:20] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  337. [21:23:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  338. [21:23:39] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  339. [21:37:06] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  340. [21:37:06] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  341. [21:37:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  342. [21:38:58] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  343. [21:40:40] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@ip-64-139-53-101.sjc.megapath.net) Quit ()
  344. [21:45:12] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8fcb896a90a1cb6e) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  345. [21:51:36] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  346. [21:51:36] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
  347. [21:54:05] * bear42 (n=bear@pool-72-78-10-21.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  348. [21:55:13] * bear (n=bear@pool-72-78-161-51.phlapa.east.verizon.net) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  349. [21:55:44] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
  350. [21:55:44] <jibot> AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
  351. [21:55:51] * bear42 is now known as bear
  352. [21:59:59] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("http://davecardwell.co.uk/")
  353. [22:01:38] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@host41-35-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ("Leaving.")
  354. [22:15:53] * punter (n=punter@ipa111.6.91.tellas.gr) has left #microformats
  355. [22:20:15] * Loosive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  356. [22:27:43] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  357. [22:37:04] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  358. [22:39:57] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b2eeb3b42aca8c9e) has joined #microformats
  359. [22:50:30] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  360. [22:54:07] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  361. [22:56:44] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  362. [22:57:20] * miyagawa (n=miyagawa@monster.bulknews.net) has joined #microformats
  363. [23:02:26] * jcw9 (n=jonathan@WILLIAMSJ01.ADMIN.ED.NYU.EDU) Quit ("Leaving")
  364. [23:10:13] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  365. [23:21:09] * tobie (n=tobie@modemcable078.124-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  366. [23:30:31] <tobie> why do hCard use vcard as a class name ? This is not very consistent ...
  367. [23:31:13] <tobie> Is there a historical background to this ?
  368. [23:31:21] <tantek> it would be less consistent to make up a new name
  369. [23:31:38] <tantek> just as iCalendar RFC2445 reused the "VCALENDAR" name from vCalendar
  370. [23:31:43] <tobie> agreed, but then why call them hcard in the first place ?
  371. [23:31:48] <tantek> hCard reuses the "vcard" name from vCard RFC2426
  372. [23:32:01] <tantek> because they are hCards, not vCards
  373. [23:32:09] <tantek> they are vCards, in HTML
  374. [23:32:11] <tantek> thus hCards
  375. [23:32:25] <tantek> perhaps a candidate for an FAQ...
  376. [23:32:36] <tantek> tobie, would you to add that to hcard-faq on the wiki?
  377. [23:32:47] <tobie> actually, why not - sure.
  378. [23:33:02] <tantek> it is a very reasonable question
  379. [23:33:09] <tantek> and the answer illustrates our principles of minimal reinvention
  380. [23:35:04] * ravenn (n=ravenn@203-206-240-219.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #microformats
  381. [23:41:06] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  382. [23:45:12] * cbarrett (n=cbarrett@adium/cbarrett) has joined #microformats
  383. [23:45:16] <cbarrett> heheh, check this out.
  384. [23:45:17] <cbarrett> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
  385. [23:45:22] <cbarrett> You guys will get a kick out if it.
  386. [23:47:57] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  387. [23:54:53] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  388. [23:57:39] * tylerr (n=tylerr@outbound.wa1.ascentium.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  389. [23:59:34] <AGraf``> cbarrett: whats up with RDFa?

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.