IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:00:24] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) Quit ()
- [00:02:08] <KevinMarks>
what microformats make sense to embed in other people's comments?
- [00:03:46] <hober>
do you mean, "when leaving a blog comment, what µfs should we consider using in the body of the comment"?
- [00:04:19] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [00:04:59] <KevinMarks>
ie what ones can I justifiably prevent from bveing filtered out, and which should be
- [00:05:15] <KevinMarks>
if I insert XFN in someone else's blog, that is a bit naughty
- [00:05:34] <KevinMarks>
but I can see an hCard or hCalender being legit
- [00:06:35] <kingryan>
or rel-tag
- [00:06:42] <mfbot>
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=15229 * DavidCary * (+1329) multiple representations of the same location
- [00:06:47] <KevinMarks>
I was having this discussion with Artur at etech
- [00:07:57] <KevinMarks>
rel-tag in the context of an hReview is borderline
- [00:11:02] <pnhChris>
hreview in comment i can see legit cases for.. lots of 'i'm looking for XYZ' or 'what do you think of ABC' requests get blogged
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- [00:44:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=15230 * DavidCary * (+766) How exactly is it "accessibility-damaging"?
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- [04:35:19] <mfbot>
[[hcard-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations&diff=0&oldid=15231 * SteveRogers * (+181) New Implementations -
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- [08:05:06] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [08:05:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [08:27:34] <kwijibo>
What do you call a convention for marking up a specific type of information in html, when that convention is not a µf (ie: it isn't a µf spec or draft, and hasn't been through the process)?
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- [08:36:47] <Azath0th>
well then it isn't a convention i guess
- [08:36:52] <Azath0th>
just random markup
- [08:39:03] <vant>
some people think that is a "microformat" even it doesn't follow the process
- [08:39:24] <kwijibo>
well, not necessarily random
- [08:39:33] <vant>
maybe we should register microformats as a trademark :p
- [08:39:57] <kwijibo>
you don't want to call it a µf because it hasn't followed the process, but it surely deserves some kind of name?
- [08:40:02] <Azath0th>
kwijibo: can you give an exampe for "specific type of information"?
- [08:40:23] <Azath0th>
well if it can be a microformat, follow the process and propose a new one
- [08:40:23] <kwijibo>
hmm - well, take hBIB I suppose
- [08:40:31] <Azath0th>
?
- [08:40:47] <kwijibo>
it's not been through the process (yet?)
- [08:41:00] <Azath0th>
then it's a draft, no?
- [08:41:00] <kwijibo>
but it is well specified
- [08:41:05] <Azath0th>
ah ok
- [08:41:18] <Azath0th>
well "soon-to-be-microformat" :)
- [08:41:20] <kwijibo>
hBIB is a bad example actually
- [08:41:48] <kwijibo>
because they clearly intended it to be µf, even if they haven't really respected the process part
- [08:41:48] <vant>
preprocessed microformat?
- [08:42:17] <Azath0th>
that would imply that it's already processed
- [08:42:22] <Azath0th>
which it isn't
- [08:42:34] <kwijibo>
but say I have a convention for marking up cooking recipes
- [08:43:01] * davecardwell (n=davecard@cpc2-grim9-0-0-cust125.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:43:01] <jibot>
davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
- [08:43:28] <kwijibo>
and maybe even an XSLT for transforming it into the native format of some software that stores recipes
- [08:43:47] <kwijibo>
I don't call it a microformat, or intend it to be one
- [08:44:06] <kwijibo>
but isn't it a little more than just 'semantic html'?
- [08:45:02] <Azath0th>
hmm, as long as it's in XHTML it is just that, once converted you can name it whatever you want
- [08:45:06] <Azath0th>
that's my understanding
- [08:45:26] <kwijibo>
(to me semantic html is a little broad, encompassing everything from correct use of tags, up to eRDF)
- [08:47:08] <Azath0th>
well, but i guess there is no more specific term
- [08:47:13] <Azath0th>
at least i don't know one
- [08:47:20] <kwijibo>
that's a shame
- [08:47:26] <Azath0th>
let's invent one :)
- [08:48:02] <kwijibo>
:)
- [08:48:27] <Azath0th>
a kwijiboformat maybe?
- [08:48:37] <Azath0th>
at least we could be sure the domains still free ;)
- [08:48:49] <kwijibo>
well, should it be a term for any convention, any convention that isn't a µf, or any convention with a specific transformation scenario?
- [08:49:10] <kwijibo>
or any convention with a specific transformation scenario that isn't a microformat?
- [08:49:29] <kwijibo>
confusing
- [08:49:48] <Azath0th>
my head hurts now *g*
- [08:53:37] * kwijibo checks for www.kwijiboformat.com
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- [08:56:10] <Azath0th>
btw. i'd take the last one "any convention with a specific transformation scenario that isn't a microformat"
- [08:56:46] <kwijibo>
fair enough
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- [08:57:50] <Azath0th>
always good to approach one specific problem as microformats teach us ;)
- [08:58:49] <kwijibo>
although it'd also be nice to be able to distinguish between µf with a specific transformation (hATom->Atom, hCard->vCard, hCal->iCal), and those that just are what they are
- [09:00:01] <kwijibo>
they don't need to be sexy or catchy terms, just descriptive: html subformat?
- [09:00:18] <kwijibo>
nah, that's shit
- [09:00:40] <Azath0th>
hmm, well isn't that the thing that distinguishes compound and elemental microformats?
- [09:00:48] <Azath0th>
or one of the things
- [09:01:04] <Azath0th>
http://microformats.org/wiki/compound-microformat
- [09:02:02] <kwijibo>
nah, it just says "often is"
- [09:02:42] <kwijibo>
hReview is there, and that doesn't have a transformation scenario does it?
- [09:03:11] <Azath0th>
true, but it could easily be converted in a different format
- [09:03:36] <Azath0th>
same as your "recipe format"
- [09:03:48] <kwijibo>
yeah, but what, and would it be any more useful in that format?
- [09:04:38] <Azath0th>
i can't answer that
- [09:04:41] <Azath0th>
maybe *g*
- [09:04:43] <kwijibo>
i suppose a better example than the recipe one, would be a format for representing iTunes playlists or something
- [09:05:12] <Azath0th>
there are already XSLTs that transform the iTunes library xml file, aren't there?
- [09:05:28] <kwijibo>
probably from xml->html
- [09:05:36] <Azath0th>
and the other way round wouldn't make much sense
- [09:05:47] <Azath0th>
what good is a library file without the music files
- [09:06:00] <Azath0th>
so why would i want to convert a html listing into a xml
- [09:06:26] <kwijibo>
hmm, maybe another bad example - can you have radio stations in a playlist?
- [09:06:41] <Azath0th>
yea, could be possible
- [09:06:52] <Azath0th>
can't say anything against that exampe :)
- [09:07:04] <kwijibo>
or what about bookmarks?
- [09:07:15] <Azath0th>
XOXO
- [09:08:10] <kwijibo>
yeah but if you mark it up with xoxo, you can't just straight away import the bookmarks
- [09:08:46] <Azath0th>
but since XOXO is it's own proper XML file format you can easily write converters
- [09:08:52] <Azath0th>
as FF add-in for example
- [09:08:52] <kwijibo>
whereas, perversely, if you use the nasty loose html that is generated by the browser, you can
- [09:10:03] <kwijibo>
ok, I think I've got a good example - a way of writing html so it can be transformed to docbook
- [09:10:38] <Azath0th>
use proper XHTML and XSLT :)
- [09:11:20] <kwijibo>
yes, that's what you would do, but you'd need to have conventions and semantic hooks for the xslt to use
- [09:11:42] <kwijibo>
you wouldn't be able to just transform /any/ old html to docbook
- [09:11:42] <Azath0th>
true
- [09:14:56] <kwijibo>
POsH: Plain Old semantic HTML :)
- [09:15:26] <Azath0th>
yea
- [09:15:28] <Azath0th>
good one :)
- [09:15:50] <kwijibo>
shame about the acronym, but it conveys the sense well
- [09:15:59] <Azath0th>
true
- [09:17:31] <kwijibo>
ie: no general purpose standard intended - just a way of writing semantic html that hasa specific meaning in a specific circumstance
- [09:18:50] <Azath0th>
well but then it could be made into a microformat, no?
- [09:19:33] <kwijibo>
no, because it isn't general purpose - it might be really obscure
- [09:20:00] <kwijibo>
i mean, it might not be, it might also be a really good contender for the process
- [09:20:41] <kwijibo>
so then it could become a microformat
- [09:20:57] <kwijibo>
but until then, it's just plain old semantic html
- [09:21:18] <Azath0th>
yea, but that's was true for all the other microformats as well
- [09:21:23] <Azath0th>
XFN, rel-tag etc.
- [09:21:47] <kwijibo>
that's not really a problem
- [09:22:30] <Azath0th>
well, but why do you need a name for it then?
- [09:22:50] <Azath0th>
it's semantic XHTML until it gets standardised and widely adopted, then it's a microformat
- [09:24:04] <kwijibo>
because semantic XHTML can mean anything from just using the elements and attributes correctly, to microformats, to RDFa
- [09:24:16] <Azath0th>
yes
- [09:24:34] <Azath0th>
ok, gotta go now. gotta work on my thesis (on microformats)
- [09:25:50] <kwijibo>
whereas I think POsH suggests more than just the semantics/structure inherent in xhtml, but not (yet, perhaps) a µf
- [09:28:46] <kwijibo>
just like POX indicates XML that structures and describes its data, but isn't really a 'standard' itself
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- [09:39:32] <mfbot>
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=15232 * AndyMabbett * (+191) Examples in the wild -
- [09:40:08] <mfbot>
[[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=15233 * AndyMabbett * (+33) Examples in the wild - OpenStreetMap
- [09:43:24] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=15234 * AndyMabbett * (+267) Why linking to same page is harmful
- [09:43:55] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DavidCary]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:DavidCary * AndyMabbett * (+70) Welcome!
- [09:44:26] <mfbot>
[[User talk:DavidCary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:DavidCary&diff=0&oldid=15235 * AndyMabbett * (+0)
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- [11:05:45] <mfbot>
[[glossary]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=glossary&diff=0&oldid=15236 * AndyMabbett * (+59) POSH
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- [11:24:20] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [12:28:25] <kwijibo_>
is the programmer of operator in here?
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- [12:28:29] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [12:47:17] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [13:07:40] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
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- [13:36:54] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [13:55:51] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
- [14:01:23] <mfbot>
[[hcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=15237 * ChristopheDucamp * (+659)
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- [14:21:37] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [14:53:26] <mfbot>
[[User:CapWord]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:CapWord * CapWord * (+427) Creation
- [14:54:37] <adactio>
I'm at Refresh Edinburgh where Brian Suda is about to address the room and take questions about microformats.
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- [15:12:57] * tantek is really liking POSH (Plain Old Semantic HTML)
- [15:14:38] <hober>
:)
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- [15:25:41] <adactio>
POSH sounds like a great term to me.
- [15:32:04] <AGraf``>
posh sounds great indeed
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- [15:44:07] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [16:04:30] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [16:22:48] <jibot>
tylerr is Tyler Roehmholdt and involves himself in the HTML WG and WaSP-related advocacy.
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- [16:59:11] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [17:09:08] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:29:43] <mkaply>
so should I force \r\n in all my exported vcard? Or only when sending them to bluetooth?
- [17:29:56] <kwijibo>
is there such a thing as an hCal validator?
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- [17:35:36] * pnhChris is still curious how a microformat 'validator' could catch syntax errors [e.g. a typo in a non-reqiured classname causing data loss]
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- [17:35:59] <pnhChris>
someone figures that out let me know ;)
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- [17:41:04] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [17:45:00] <kwijibo>
pnhChris: you probably wouldn't be able to show an error - but a validator could show the parsed output, so you could see that something wasn't right
- [17:45:25] * sreynen (n=sreynen@12-217-44-131.client.mchsi.com) Quit ()
- [17:45:32] <Azath0th>
but then i don't need a validator at all
- [17:45:42] <kwijibo>
what about dates
- [17:45:57] <kwijibo>
and required classnames
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- [17:46:26] <kwijibo>
a validator could at the very least do that
- [17:54:59] <pnhChris>
i'm not saying some form of service isn't useful by any means
- [17:55:59] <kwijibo>
so what do you typically do to make sure your microformat can be interpreted correctly by tools?
- [17:57:26] <pnhChris>
use the tools, and if there are cases that seem to have incorrect output follow them up to see if its my fault or tools fault...
- [18:00:24] <kwijibo>
what if there's only one tool?
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- [18:02:15] <pnhChris>
not saying some tool intended for checking code [rather then consuming] wouldn't be useful... even if its a debug mode for current tools to warn when it uses a fallback option or something like that.. just that validity seems to be a tough concept to nail down
- [18:03:55] * kwijibo didn't mean that to sound quite so argumentative
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- [18:04:01] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [18:04:31] <kwijibo>
so what is it that makes it so hard to validate µf?
- [18:05:11] <pnhChris>
... i've also in the past used transforms + atom validator for testing hatom work
- [18:06:14] <pnhChris>
but again, needs as much scrutiny on the transformation tool as it does your code as well as the content of the output to know where the issues lie
- [18:06:54] <kwijibo>
I think that's where µf are most useful - where there is a clear, existing, output format that already has its own tools and validators
- [18:09:58] <pnhChris>
yes and no... it was useful, but again, as much for testing the transform tool as well as the hatom spec as it was to validate my own code
- [18:11:33] <pnhChris>
lets turn it on its side a bit.. what errors would you expect a validator to catch that wouldn't be caught by examining the output content of a tool? and what microformats would you be looking to 'validate'
- [18:12:17] <pnhChris>
to me i see some obvious cases ... required fields missing being the biggest.. but beyond that it seems touchy
- [18:13:14] <kwijibo>
anything where the value has to be a specific format
- [18:13:34] <kwijibo>
like time, date, codes
- [18:14:27] <kwijibo>
I suppose it doesn't need to be draconian to be useful
- [18:16:28] <pnhChris>
[and i'm not trying to be confrontational either.. just getting pressing to get specific ideas on the record]
- [18:19:20] <kwijibo>
i think (and I don't have any experience writing validators) I would expect it to look for the hCal, and if it can't find it, suggest common mistakes I might have made
- [18:19:49] <kwijibo>
if it finds an hCal event, check it has the required fields
- [18:20:21] <kwijibo>
then check all the values of all the properties conform to the expected format
- [18:20:44] <pnhChris>
for a good portion of ufs validataion is near impossible... is rel="tagf" an invalid tag or something else... though a check of the url in rel="tag" cases would be useful... similarly for XFN ... rel="me friend" might be wrong, but there aren't many other things you could check for... and much more would be found in data not being what you expected after parsing [rel="em" .. can't catch that in validation cause rel could be any
- [18:23:11] <kwijibo>
i think you would have to assume that tagf wasn't a microformat (even if it was a typo)
- [18:23:30] <kwijibo>
though a validator could suggest checking for mistyped classnames
- [18:24:15] <pnhChris>
you wouldn't even pick it up.. unless you had a massive set of regexes or simply listed all the rel values that weren't tags.. which seems a bit silly
- [18:24:31] <pnhChris>
even more so with class names
- [18:24:54] <kwijibo>
no you wouldn't have the validator look for misspellings
- [18:25:20] <kwijibo>
but if you are asking it to validate this html for rel-tag
- [18:25:24] <pnhChris>
also.. check the wiki.. there are a few linters and such out there if you're looking for tools besides, say, operator
- [18:25:41] <pnhChris>
http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/rel-lint/ for example
- [18:25:58] <pnhChris>
[found via http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=validation&go=Go ]
- [18:26:21] <pnhChris>
i've got to run.. please keep thinking.. and find a good spot on the wiki to dump the thoughts
- [18:26:29] <kwijibo>
... then it can tell you how many it found,
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- [19:23:46] <jibot>
davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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- [19:36:58] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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kingryan is ryan king
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- [20:41:33] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [21:37:06] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [21:51:36] <jibot>
davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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- [21:55:44] <jibot>
AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
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- [23:30:31] <tobie>
why do hCard use vcard as a class name ? This is not very consistent ...
- [23:31:13] <tobie>
Is there a historical background to this ?
- [23:31:21] <tantek>
it would be less consistent to make up a new name
- [23:31:38] <tantek>
just as iCalendar RFC2445 reused the "VCALENDAR" name from vCalendar
- [23:31:43] <tobie>
agreed, but then why call them hcard in the first place ?
- [23:31:48] <tantek>
hCard reuses the "vcard" name from vCard RFC2426
- [23:32:01] <tantek>
because they are hCards, not vCards
- [23:32:09] <tantek>
they are vCards, in HTML
- [23:32:11] <tantek>
thus hCards
- [23:32:25] <tantek>
perhaps a candidate for an FAQ...
- [23:32:36] <tantek>
tobie, would you to add that to hcard-faq on the wiki?
- [23:32:47] <tobie>
actually, why not - sure.
- [23:33:02] <tantek>
it is a very reasonable question
- [23:33:09] <tantek>
and the answer illustrates our principles of minimal reinvention
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- [23:45:16] <cbarrett>
heheh, check this out.
- [23:45:17] <cbarrett>
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
- [23:45:22] <cbarrett>
You guys will get a kick out if it.
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- [23:59:34] <AGraf``>
cbarrett: whats up with RDFa?
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